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View Full Version : How did the Knicks win 54 games two seasons ago?



%%%%
12-22-2014, 04:20 PM
As bad as they are now, I find it hard to understand that they won 54 games recently.

What was different between the team-then and the team-now?

2-ONE-5
12-22-2014, 04:23 PM
just got lucky to get off to a crazy hot start by hitting 3's. Also had a little more tlaent on that team

abe_froman
12-22-2014, 04:26 PM
better on the court vet leadership from guys like kidd ,who acted as a 2ndary coach

kingsdelez24
12-22-2014, 04:30 PM
Veteran leadership that didn't let players like JR Smith and Raymond Felton pout and whine on the defensive end.

A team with 2 players playing on a broken foot to help the team down the stretch (Sheed and Kurt Thomas) instead of a team that sells out its coach on defense on a nightly basis

-Kobe24-TJ19-
12-22-2014, 04:33 PM
Mike Woodson.

slaker619
12-22-2014, 04:37 PM
Good coaching and actually looked like they wanted to win

Crackadalic
12-22-2014, 04:45 PM
We had veterans that set an example for us.

When your vets is Melo/Amare/Jr you get 5-25

Melo is a great talent but he needs guys in his ear to be great

That was a team. This is a bunch of individuals thats trying to get his.

DoMeFavors
12-22-2014, 04:46 PM
Broke record for most threes in a season, Melo scoring champ,Tyson Chandler DPOY, JR Smith 6th man of year.

Ever since less threes, Melos scoring dropping, Tyson's defense fell off last yr, Jr Smith fell off last yr. Felton who was decent in that yr became lousy.

lamzoka
12-22-2014, 04:50 PM
Leadership- Kidd, Sheed Wallace, Kurt Thomas. Those guys keep the team intact.

The power of the 3 ball Guys like novak was automatic from downtown. We were shooting close to 50% from 3 as a team.

Defense Tyson had arguabily the best year of his career that season. He led the league in FG% and played hella D.

Jr Smith was balling, He won 6 man.

Melo was a MVP candidate.


With all that being said, whats the purpose of this thread? That was 2 years ago. We have a diffrent roster now, different coach, its just not the same thing.

SeoulBeatz
12-22-2014, 04:52 PM
As bad as they are now, I find it hard to understand that they won 54 games recently.

What was different between the team-then and the team-now?

Knicks are running a completely different system now. Phil Jackson is trying to implement the triangle but the fact is they don't have the personnel to do so.

Whereas two years ago they lived and died by the long ball. Luckily for them, it was dropping so they had success. They had a perfect lineup for that run-and-gun uptempo style.

If i were running the Knicks, I would've let Melo go or tried to pull off a sign and trade for young assets and kickstarted a rebuild, but with NYC being a basketball mecca and all, I doubt their fanbase would allow such a blatant Sixer-esque tank.

They'll have a nice draft pick this year and I believe they'll have enough cap to sign a big name free agent so I could see them getting back into the playoffs next year but I can't envision them contending before the Melo era is over.

And contrary to what Phil Jackson says, I do think they're missing Tyson Chandler right now. He's a former DPOY and when an aging Amare Stoudemire is your leading rebounder you know you're in dire need of some rebounding help (though I gotta give props to Stat for bouncing back this year)

bucketss
12-22-2014, 05:00 PM
jason kidd, tyson changder, jr smith playing at near all star level. melo wasn't as banged up as he is now, much more motivated. no bargnani (even if he didn't play much seems he sucks the life out of a team).

Baltoro
12-22-2014, 05:10 PM
12-13' Knicks were super fun to watch. Ranked 3rd in Offensive Efficiency and seldom turned the ball over. Good coaching. Deep team with solid vets. Not a ton of roster overlap.

NOW things are all cattywampus. Triangle is a horrible fit for this team and they've had sub par coaching. Plus injuries, albatross contracts and chemistry issues. Its a mess. BUT they're gonna have MONEY TO BLOW pretty soon.

bucketss
12-22-2014, 05:22 PM
melo is 30 with banged up knees i guess they need to look at their options, and see what they can get for him.

omdigga
12-22-2014, 05:35 PM
the nursing home knicks were good peoples.

Shammyguy3
12-22-2014, 06:34 PM
Melo had an MVP-type season, team was all-time in 3 point attempts & percentage, and Tyson had a DPOY year, and they bought into Mike Woodson's defensive system on the whole. Plus a little bit of the East being the inferior conference as well.

Jamiecballer
12-22-2014, 07:12 PM
As bad as they are now, I find it hard to understand that they won 54 games recently.

What was different between the team-then and the team-now?
Good role players swapped out for one dimensional knucklehead low IQ players in past 2 off seasons

Chronz
12-22-2014, 10:37 PM
Efficiency

dalton749
12-22-2014, 10:54 PM
they arent playing to their strengths at all
guys like acy touch the ball way too much,
and they waste too much time attempting to play defence

JasonJohnHorn
12-23-2014, 02:07 AM
They had great glue-guys/vets: Kidd, Camby, Thomas, K-Mart. Kidd make a huge impact in terms of hustle, taking care of the ball, and making sure guys aren't slacking off.

Camby, Thomas and K-Mart gave them some toughness off the bench. I mean, in their prime a front court with Camby, Kurt Thomas and K-Mart would have been AMAZING. You let them spot guys... they had Sheed part of the season, Chandler and Amare.... That is a DEEP front court.


Then they had shooters: Copeland and Novak and Shump.

It was a good team. It was just an OLD team. And the guys retired and didn't get replaced.

effen5
12-23-2014, 03:07 AM
Fluke

Tony_Starks
12-23-2014, 03:23 AM
Mike Woodson.

goingfor28
12-23-2014, 03:38 AM
Patrick Ewing

ewing
12-23-2014, 12:52 PM
They had great glue-guys/vets: Kidd, Camby, Thomas, K-Mart. Kidd make a huge impact in terms of hustle, taking care of the ball, and making sure guys aren't slacking off.

Camby, Thomas and K-Mart gave them some toughness off the bench. I mean, in their prime a front court with Camby, Kurt Thomas and K-Mart would have been AMAZING. You let them spot guys... they had Sheed part of the season, Chandler and Amare.... That is a DEEP front court.


Then they had shooters: Copeland and Novak and Shump.

It was a good team. It was just an OLD team. And the guys retired and didn't get replaced.

solid post

ewing
12-23-2014, 12:52 PM
Efficiency

someone should tell them to be more efficient.

JasonJohnHorn
12-23-2014, 08:15 PM
solid post

Thanks :-)

bucketss
12-23-2014, 08:57 PM
near the beginning of the season i got banned for saying the thunder(without durant/westbrook) and the boston celtics were better than the knicks, i think i deserve an apology.

Lakers + Giants
12-23-2014, 09:18 PM
Fluke

this

ewing
12-23-2014, 09:37 PM
Thanks :-)


really. it true. i don't know if the vet presence also made JR focus, stay the the course, or aided Melo, made guys deal gel better, etc. but from a talent standpoint you hit the nail on the head.

ewing
12-23-2014, 09:38 PM
near the beginning of the season i got banned for saying the thunder(without durant/westbrook) and the boston celtics were better than the knicks, i think i deserve an apology.

i'm sorry

Kashmir13579
12-23-2014, 09:39 PM
Jason Kidd and Tyson Chandler had a lot to do with it.

Kashmir13579
12-23-2014, 09:39 PM
Mike Woodson. What?

Kashmir13579
12-23-2014, 09:40 PM
It's funny reading through here how ****ing clueless most of you are

Jamiecballer
12-23-2014, 09:50 PM
It's funny reading through here how ****ing clueless most of you are

oh come off it. i nailed it.

FriedTofuz
12-23-2014, 10:41 PM
It's gotta be Jason Kidd and Tyson chandler. They also had good defensive veteran bigs who were good leaders ( camby, thomas, sheed) that combined with hitting a record for 3s and JR smith not sucking chicken wings and melo having a huge season is why they won that many games. oh and the east sucked.

sixer04fan
12-23-2014, 11:23 PM
@MySportsLegion: The 76ers are now officially ahead of the Knicks in the Eastern Conference.

Lol

ewing
12-23-2014, 11:40 PM
Earl Barron.

Chronz
12-23-2014, 11:58 PM
someone should tell them to be more efficient.

maybe if we show them their per lol

JasonJohnHorn
12-24-2014, 12:18 AM
really. it true. i don't know if the vet presence also made JR focus, stay the the course, or aided Melo, made guys deal gel better, etc. but from a talent standpoint you hit the nail on the head.

Well... a lot of that was Kidd, but it was also the culture of professionalism with guys like Chandler, Thomas and Camby. Those guys were hard workers on defense and on the glass. Hustle players. Martin could be a wild card, like Smith, but with Kidd and Chandler coming off a championship in Dallas together... guys like Melo and Smith had to pay attention.

Kidd, who I really don't like as a person, is an amazing motivator. I remember in LBJ's second year, the Cavs were in possession of the 8th seed and the Nets were a few games behind. Vince Carter was already mailing it in, but Kidd would ride his *** and make sure Carter was hustling and chasing lose balls and staying on his man. He is just that lead-by-example type that hold himself to a high standard, so when he calls other guys out they have to listen and can't take issue with it. CP3 is like that. Jordan was like that. Kobe tries to be like that, but he takes so many bad shots people tune him out an he just sounds like an @$$.

When Kidd got on Melo's ***... Melo knew he had to keep up because he was the franchise player and he couldn't let himself be out done by a 38-year-old. Smith knew staying on Kidd's good side was central, because Kidd was distributing, and if Smith took stupid shots or wasn't playing D and hustling, Kidd wouldn't give him the ball.

It's amazing how one guy, whose actual numbers really factor in so little, can have THAT much of an impact on the rest of the roster. And with Chandler and Camby and Thomas backing him up, and Shump earning his keep and Copeland just trying to make the most of the situation, everybody had to play hard to get their shots. Kidd respected Woodson, who is a great coach, defensively at least, and with Kidd throwing his support at Woodson, and those other guys backiing Kidd up... it is just a contagious winning culture where everybody works.

Now it's just give to Smith and Melo and let them shoot.

It's a completely different culture. Hopefully Phil Jackson and Fisher can turn it around.

Crackadalic
12-24-2014, 12:26 AM
Well... a lot of that was Kidd, but it was also the culture of professionalism with guys like Chandler, Thomas and Camby. Those guys were hard workers on defense and on the glass. Hustle players. Martin could be a wild card, like Smith, but with Kidd and Chandler coming off a championship in Dallas together... guys like Melo and Smith had to pay attention.

Kidd, who I really don't like as a person, is an amazing motivator. I remember in LBJ's second year, the Cavs were in possession of the 8th seed and the Nets were a few games behind. Vince Carter was already mailing it in, but Kidd would ride his *** and make sure Carter was hustling and chasing lose balls and staying on his man. He is just that lead-by-example type that hold himself to a high standard, so when he calls other guys out they have to listen and can't take issue with it. CP3 is like that. Jordan was like that. Kobe tries to be like that, but he takes so many bad shots people tune him out an he just sounds like an @$$.

When Kidd got on Melo's ***... Melo knew he had to keep up because he was the franchise player and he couldn't let himself be out done by a 38-year-old. Smith knew staying on Kidd's good side was central, because Kidd was distributing, and if Smith took stupid shots or was playing D and hustling, Kidd wouldn't give him the ball.

It's amazing how one guy, whose actual numbers really factor in so little, can have THAT much of an impact on the rest of the roster. And with Chandler and Camby and Thomas backing him up, and Shump earning his keep and Copeland just trying to make the most of the situation, everybody had to play hard to get their shots. Kidd respected Woodson, who is a great coach, defensively at least, and with Kidd throwing his support at Woodson, and those other guys backiing Kidd up... it is just a contagious winning culture where everybody works.

Now it's just give to Smith and Melo and let them shoot.

It's a completely different culture. Hopefully Phil Jackson and Fisher can turn it around.

Hit it right on the nail.

JasonJohnHorn
12-24-2014, 03:48 AM
Hit it right on the nail.

That was actually a decent squad... a ton of All-NBA, All-Defensive, and All-Star appearances on that roster... it was frustrating that they couldn't say healthy... I mean... they were old... so injuries could be expected... but Wallace, Thomas, Martin, Camby and and Amare all missed more than HALF the season.... an they STILL won 54. And Melo only played 67 games that year. Imagine if they were healthy all year AND in the playoffs?

ewing
12-24-2014, 07:17 AM
maybe if we show them their per lol

An unnamed PSD source told me its a coaching tool

-Kobe24-TJ19-
12-24-2014, 08:48 AM
What?



thats what Knicks fans said 2 years ago.

Chronz
12-24-2014, 12:07 PM
An unnamed PSD source told me its a coaching tool
Must've been SVG

D-Leethal
12-24-2014, 12:22 PM
someone should tell them to be more efficient.

I lol'ed

Typical Chronz "efficiency in a vacuum" response.

D-Leethal
12-24-2014, 12:25 PM
It's funny reading through here how ****ing clueless most of you are

Says the guy whose response consists of nothing more than one guy who didn't even play and another who shot 2-250 during the home run stretch that went 16-3 and defined our season.





I do think they both contributed their fair share, but given your answer the quoted post was definitely not warranted.

Seems like everyone pretty much nailed it, but I don't think "surrounded Melo and JR with some of the highest IQ players of the past decade" was mentioned.

ewing
12-24-2014, 01:23 PM
Must've been SVG

Stan Van Gundy?

Jamiecballer
12-24-2014, 02:27 PM
Stan Van Gundy?
No, scalable vector graphics

GottaLoveCubs
12-24-2014, 03:14 PM
What I remember from that team is they would destroy you with the 3 ball. They could beat the best teams as long as they hit their 3's.

ewing
12-24-2014, 03:15 PM
No, scalable vector graphics


if they don't help they must be uncoachable

Sanjay
12-25-2014, 07:12 PM
I think the question should be: Why have the Knicks been so bad the last two seasons? They basically had the some roster last year as they did when they won 54 games in 2012-13 and this season they effectively only lost Chandler to the Mavericks. Their record should be much better, especially considering they are in the Eastern Conference.

blahblahyoutoo
12-25-2014, 11:14 PM
I think the question should be: Why have the Knicks been so bad the last two seasons? They basically had the some roster last year as they did when they won 54 games in 2012-13 and this season they effectively only lost Chandler to the Mavericks. Their record should be much better, especially considering they are in the Eastern Conference.

its because melo does not make ppl around him better

Jamiecballer
12-26-2014, 07:10 PM
I think the question should be: Why have the Knicks been so bad the last two seasons? They basically had the some roster last year as they did when they won 54 games in 2012-13 and this season they effectively only lost Chandler to the Mavericks. Their record should be much better, especially considering they are in the Eastern Conference.
You should look a lot closer. They have turned over 2/3rd of the roster if not more.

dalton749
12-26-2014, 08:09 PM
chandler was the second most important part of that team. I don't know how people continue to over look the impact he had.

Sanjay
12-27-2014, 05:46 PM
You should look a lot closer. They have turned over 2/3rd of the roster if not more.

I was meaning key players/starters. They still have Melo, Shumpert, J.R. Smith and Stoudemire from two seasons ago.

Jamiecballer
12-27-2014, 05:53 PM
I was meaning key players/starters. They still have Melo, Shumpert, J.R. Smith and Stoudemire from two seasons ago.
There is only one really good player in that list who contributes consistently.

IMO it's the combination of players and their abilities and the overall level of your best player that are the two most important factors in predicting a teams record, in that order.

The aggregate talent of a handful of players is generally not a good predictor of success.

Sanjay
12-27-2014, 05:59 PM
There is only one really good player in that list who contributes consistently.

IMO it's the combination of players and their abilities and the overall level of your best player that are the two most important factors in predicting a teams record, in that order.

The aggregate talent of a handful of players is generally not a good predictor of success.

I agree. If you look at their roster over the last three years they are pretty similar in terms of overall talent and Carmelo hasn't really declined, so why are New York doing so bad?

Jamiecballer
12-27-2014, 06:04 PM
I agree. If you look at their roster over the last three years they are pretty similar in terms of overall talent and Carmelo hasn't really declined, so why are New York doing so bad?
Because after the first 2 or 3 guys they all suck and unlike 2 years ago the marginal talent they have doesn't fit around those guys.

KnickNyKnick
12-27-2014, 08:27 PM
chandler was the second most important part of that team. I don't know how people continue to over look the impact he had.

i agree, chandler was a big part of that season. maybe the biggest. along side the crazy 3 point shooting

Chrisclover
12-27-2014, 09:56 PM
Broke record for most threes in a season, Melo scoring champ,Tyson Chandler DPOY, JR Smith 6th man of year.

Ever since less threes, Melos scoring dropping, Tyson's defense fell off last yr, Jr Smith fell off last yr. Felton who was decent in that yr became lousy.
I dunno when things started to go south. It seemed to me that almost all of them suddenly regressed mightily.

Kashmir13579
12-27-2014, 11:51 PM
Says the guy whose response consists of nothing more than one guy who didn't even play and another who shot 2-250 during the home run stretch that went 16-3 and defined our season.





I do think they both contributed their fair share, but given your answer the quoted post was definitely not warranted.

Seems like everyone pretty much nailed it, but I don't think "surrounded Melo and JR with some of the highest IQ players of the past decade" was mentioned. says the guy who in hindsight has never been right about anything

Jamiecballer
12-28-2014, 11:55 AM
says the guy who in hindsight has never been right about anything

lol i wasn't going to say it, just think it.

jimm120
12-28-2014, 12:18 PM
Look guys...I see a lot of comments which are just incorrect.

We lost a lot last year because
1. Woodson's offense was good-ish until the 4th quarter. He'd burnt out Melo by then with so many minutes and the rest of the team wasn't good enough.
2. Switching defense. Even if Tyson is declining, he was still good. Unfortunately, switching to the PG on 2 out of 3 plays is NOT a good thing, since that meant the PG was on the Center down low.
3. Felton...horrible PG play. Prigs is good, but he's 37 yrs. He can only play and do so much now.
4. JR Smith played horribly until the final 2 months. Iman Shumpert didn't grow as expected.

What's the problem with the Knicks THIS season?

1. No 2nd scorer. And Amare is a poor 3rd scorer at 12 ppgs. Iman at 8ppg. Smith at 8ppg. Timmy at 9 ppg. No 2nd scorer! Our offense is slightly worse overall than last season, but it doesn't get burnt out in the 4th anymore. But there isn't enough offensive talent to get to enough points.

2. Defense. Plain and simple. Defense has always been pretty bad, but with No Tyson this year, its a few notches below. Dalembert and Cole Aldrich are ok, but Tyson was a Real +/- of 3.16, which Dalembert is a Real +/- of 2.00. Team defense is horrible. Better than the stupid switching defense of yesteryear, but the defense isn't there. Even Iman SHumpert, our premier perimeter defender, is not that good this season.

Jamiecballer
12-28-2014, 05:01 PM
Look guys...I see a lot of comments which are just incorrect.

We lost a lot last year because
1. Woodson's offense was good-ish until the 4th quarter. He'd burnt out Melo by then with so many minutes and the rest of the team wasn't good enough.
2. Switching defense. Even if Tyson is declining, he was still good. Unfortunately, switching to the PG on 2 out of 3 plays is NOT a good thing, since that meant the PG was on the Center down low.
3. Felton...horrible PG play. Prigs is good, but he's 37 yrs. He can only play and do so much now.
4. JR Smith played horribly until the final 2 months. Iman Shumpert didn't grow as expected.

What's the problem with the Knicks THIS season?

1. No 2nd scorer. And Amare is a poor 3rd scorer at 12 ppgs. Iman at 8ppg. Smith at 8ppg. Timmy at 9 ppg. No 2nd scorer! Our offense is slightly worse overall than last season, but it doesn't get burnt out in the 4th anymore. But there isn't enough offensive talent to get to enough points.

2. Defense. Plain and simple. Defense has always been pretty bad, but with No Tyson this year, its a few notches below. Dalembert and Cole Aldrich are ok, but Tyson was a Real +/- of 3.16, which Dalembert is a Real +/- of 2.00. Team defense is horrible. Better than the stupid switching defense of yesteryear, but the defense isn't there. Even Iman SHumpert, our premier perimeter defender, is not that good this season.
Sure you can overcomplicate it if you'd like.

nycericanguy
12-28-2014, 05:24 PM
Because Amare was hurt that year...

BIG worm
12-28-2014, 06:03 PM
I know the Knicks roster is a mess, but maybe it also has to Fisher not being a good coach as well.

bucketss
12-28-2014, 08:35 PM
I know the Knicks roster is a mess, but maybe it also has to Fisher not being a good coach as well.

maybe, i know thibs wouldn't allow **** like this.

https://vine.co/v/OHEz2Ju99hj

Crackadalic
12-28-2014, 09:07 PM
maybe, i know thibs wouldn't allow **** like this.

https://vine.co/v/OHEz2Ju99hj

Melo is playing on a bum knee. He isn't even suppose to be playing but what choice do we have? Tonight we only have 9 guys. Its like every game someone is out smh

Cal827
12-28-2014, 11:53 PM
Crackadalic, are you one of the increasing amount of Knick fans who wish that Melo should opt for surgery?


It would make sense considering that this season hasn't gone to plan. It would also give him roughly 10 months to get back to 100%.

If so, then why do you think he's holding off? I'm just a little curious (based on some of his words, it seems like it's a forgone conclusion that he needs the surgery).

Crackadalic
12-29-2014, 12:31 AM
Crackadalic, are you one of the increasing amount of Knick fans who wish that Melo should opt for surgery?


It would make sense considering that this season hasn't gone to plan. It would also give him roughly 10 months to get back to 100%.

If so, then why do you think he's holding off? I'm just a little curious (based on some of his words, it seems like it's a forgone conclusion that he needs the surgery).

People can say what they want about Melo being selfish, he should have been to the bulls, not a motivating leader, isn't a star etc etc but he truly wants to be their for the team even though he should have had surgery in early nov. our 2nd leading scorer is scoring 13 points per game and thats no knee amare.

If we had more heathy bodies he with have opt for that long time ago but he choose to play through it till we could.

LA_Raiders
12-29-2014, 03:46 AM
They had a coach back then.

FriedTofuz
12-29-2014, 05:13 AM
Why is this still a thread? Havent we already went over legitimate reasons why they won 54 games and why they're not a good team right now? /thread

JordansBulls
12-29-2014, 11:21 PM
I just realized these guys are 5-28 right now. How the hell is that possible when they got 2 stars?

bucketss
12-29-2014, 11:23 PM
I just realized these guys are 5-28 right now. How the hell is that possible when they got 2 stars?

who?

SeoulBeatz
12-29-2014, 11:46 PM
I just realized these guys are 5-28 right now. How the hell is that possible when they got 2 stars?

Who's the 2nd?

But yes, I never thought they'd be this bad. More losses than the Sixers with double the talent is baffling.

Cal827
12-29-2014, 11:56 PM
I just realized these guys are 5-28 right now. How the hell is that possible when they got 2 stars?

DEREK FISHER IS NOT A STAR


.....


AND HE'S NOT EVEN PLAYING ANYMORE GODDAMNIT :laugh:

-Kobe24-TJ19-
12-30-2014, 12:53 AM
DEREK FISHER IS NOT A STAR


.....


AND HE'S NOT EVEN PLAYING ANYMORE GODDAMNIT :laugh:

JB probably thought Amare.

But Knicks are worse than Isiah days.