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View Full Version : How was Jordan able to be so much better than Kobe?



sheesh
12-21-2014, 12:10 AM
So after Reggie Miller said Jordan was 10 times better than Kobe I decided to watch the 91 finals again because I have the DVD.

It's true, it's not even close. But my question is how was Jordan able to be so much better?

Jordan didn't have size advantage. He wasn't a better shooter. Kobe ended up mimicking Jordan's game. Kobe just took all his moves.

Maybe it's the handle? I noticed that Kobe's ball handling isn't on par with Jordan's. What else though?

Cracka2HI!
12-21-2014, 12:12 AM
Lol!

Longhornfan1234
12-21-2014, 12:12 AM
MJ's athleticism and IQ sets him apart by a mile.

ThuglifeJ
12-21-2014, 12:19 AM
Its the decision making. Kobe could do everything mj did skillwise..mj just naturally had these instincts on what to do at all times on order to get the ball in the hoop and get a stop on the other end. He knew what to do and when and how.
It was natural like a wolf in the woods..


Also he could stretch his arm from half court to dunk it over a team of monstars.

FlashBolt
12-21-2014, 12:23 AM
I never understood what people meant by "much better" or "ten times better." I get that they don't truly mean that but one great to another great, how can you be that much better? Surely, everyone has a limit and I just don't think Jordan was MUCH better than Kobe. Better? Yes. But I don't see much better.

kobe4thewinbang
12-21-2014, 12:23 AM
:facepalm:

Another "Kobe sucks" thread.

sheesh
12-21-2014, 12:24 AM
I never understood what people meant by "much better" or "ten times better." I get that they don't truly mean that but one great to another great, how can you be that much better? Surely, everyone has a limit and I just don't think Jordan was MUCH better than Kobe. Better? Yes. But I don't see much better.

Miller used a hyperbole. And it's subjective and you're entitled to your opinion.

goingfor28
12-21-2014, 12:29 AM
:facepalm:

Another "Kobe sucks" thread.
Right bc that's what it says

kobe4thewinbang
12-21-2014, 12:31 AM
Right bc that's what it saysSemantics. That's what you're basically saying. Let's just make a "Diss Kobe in some way" thread for all of you delusional haters that think Kobe sucks now.

Crunch Time
12-21-2014, 12:54 AM
So after Reggie Miller said Jordan was 10 times better than Kobe I decided to watch the 91 finals again because I have the DVD.

It's true, it's not even close. But my question is how was Jordan able to be so much better?

Jordan didn't have size advantage. He wasn't a better shooter. Kobe ended up mimicking Jordan's game. Kobe just took all his moves.

Maybe it's the handle? I noticed that Kobe's ball handling isn't on par with Jordan's. What else though?

yeah he did?

SteveZissou
12-21-2014, 01:07 AM
I've only seen limited actual real time whole footage of MJ. The only way I can describe it was, MJ was waaayy more efficient. He didn't force shots. He played within the offense. Always made the right pass within the offense.

But at the same time he maximized all the time he possessed and scored the ball. He didnt go out of the way to make the un-believeable play. He did it within the offense. He was un-stoppable. He knew it, the other team knew it. Everyone knew it. But he didn't go out off the offensive gameplan to show it unless it was the right play.

It was kobe/Jordan talent. But a "spurs" commitment to play basketball the right way.

JasonJohnHorn
12-21-2014, 01:09 AM
Firstly, Jordan was not the glory hound that Kobe was. Jordan's first and last priority was winning. That meant the ego had nothing to do with it. If he had the best shot, he took it, if somebody else had it, he passed it. He gave Paxon and Kerr game winning shots. Robert Horry had to get an offensive rebound to take a game winning shot with Kobe on the floor (a rebound off a Kobe miss mind you).

Jordan was a better passer. A better rebounder. Jordan was perhaps the best defensive shooting guard in the history of the game. He defense was incredible. AMAZING.

He was a better post player; he was a better shooter. He was better at creating offense.

Everything Kobe does well, Jordan did better.

Kobe is easily the second best shooting guard the game has ever seen, but the distance between first and second is twice as bigger as the gap between second and third.


And Jordan NEVER took STUPID shots with the hope of hitting a miracle shot and getting into the highlight reel or being seen as a hero. He broke down defenses and made shots.


Now anybody who has read a number of my posts knows that I don't like Kobe's style or Kobe as a person, but that doesn't mean I don't have respect for his game. And that said, I am a Bad Boys fan from back in the day and there is not a player I ever had more hatred (and I mean hatred in the sporting sense, not the literal sense) than Jordan. I don't rank Jordan as the best player ever, though it is close. I do recognize him as easily the greatest shooting guard to ever play the game, and as much as I hated watching him win 6 championships, I have to admit that there is no way Kobe has ever reached the level Jordan played at. I'd like to say there is a shooting guard better than Jordan, but there simply isn't. Not even close.


At the age of 39 he was playing better basketball than Kobe is playing now.

And anybody who saw Jordan play during the 88/89 season... fawking forgit about it. 32/8/8 with almost 3 steals? Kobe has never demonstrated that kind of all around game. EVER. 37 points per game? Kobe never touched that. And look at per100: Jordan averaged 40 for his career! As his as 46! Kobe never even sniffed 40 until this year, and this is only because Byron Scott lets a guy who is shooting under .400 take as many shots as he wants to.


Anybody who thinks there is anything resembling an argument in favour of Kobe simply never saw Jordan play in his prime. And look at the ring count. I don't normally go by that, but let's be honest, it took Jordan SEVEN years to win his first one, battling Bird and Thomas and Magic... and he STILL won SIX RINGS despite not winning his first one until he was 27. Kobe was drafted by a contender and won his first title when he was 21 and he still doesn't have Jodran's ring count and is NEVER going to match his finals MVP count.

This isn't even a conversation.

Hawkeye15
12-21-2014, 01:13 AM
Better athlete, huge hands, and simply a smarter basketball player.

jerellh528
12-21-2014, 01:15 AM
You mean better than everyone? Kobe is the closest it gets to Jordan skill wise. If jordan is 10x better than kobe like Reggie said, then Reggie is 100000x worse than jordan because kobe is 100x better than Reggie.

numba1CHANGsta
12-21-2014, 01:15 AM
College, playing for Phil jackson for most of his career, and playing with Pippen for most of his career in their prime helped his success. Kobe came out of HS and when he hit his prime Shaq was already declining, got fat, inury prone, and eventually traded. Imagine if Kobe and Shaq played together in their prime? no doubt at least 6 championships together

Phenomenonsense
12-21-2014, 01:17 AM
I never understood what people meant by "much better" or "ten times better." I get that they don't truly mean that but one great to another great, how can you be that much better? Surely, everyone has a limit and I just don't think Jordan was MUCH better than Kobe. Better? Yes. But I don't see much better.

At that level the amount of skill and work needed to be seen as even a little bit better is astronomical. When you can just watch someone like Jordan and see how much better they were than Kobe, that is what they mean. It's hard to get into the NBA. It's hard to make a rotation. It's hard to be a starter. It's hard to be an allstar. It's hard to be a superstar. And it is hard to be considered a GOAT. Each level takes ten times as much skill, work, and natural feel/talent/instincts/whatever to reach.

JasonJohnHorn
12-21-2014, 01:21 AM
You mean better than everyone? Kobe is the closest it gets to Jordan skill wise. If jordan is 10x better than kobe like Reggie said, then Reggie is 100000x worse than jordan because kobe is 100x better than Reggie.


SMH. Kobe is better than Miller, but a 100X? Please. Miller and 10X the shooter Kobe could ever hope to be, and far more clutch than Kobe has ever shown himself to be.

jerellh528
12-21-2014, 01:26 AM
SMH. Kobe is better than Miller, but a 100X? Please. Miller and 10X the shooter Kobe could ever hope to be, and far more clutch than Kobe has ever shown himself to be.

I like miller, he went to my high school. But it's stupid of miller to even say Jordan was 10x better than kobe. Jordan might not even be 10x better than me. Yes, he is the greatest ever but this x(x) stuff is ridiculous.

JasonJohnHorn
12-21-2014, 01:27 AM
College, playing for Phil jackson for most of his career, and playing with Pippen for most of his career in their prime helped his success. Kobe came out of HS and when he hit his prime Shaq was already declining, got fat, inury prone, and eventually traded. Imagine if Kobe and Shaq played together in their prime? no doubt at least 6 championships together

You talk like Jordan got drafted by a contender. It took 7 years for him to win his first title. He was 27. He had to wait for Pippen to develop. Kobe had prime Shaq his first year. Fat and injury prone? Kobe had two seasons where Shaq was still beasting AFTER they won three titles, one of them with Malone and Payton, and he still dropped the ball.

Kobe started winning titles at 21, Jordan at 27 and Jordan STILL has more rings. Not to mention that Kobe got a talent reload with Bynum, Gasol, Odom and Artest, and then again with Howard, and Nash added to Gasol... it's not like Kobe hasn't had a contender around him every year save the two years after he ran Shaq out of town. And Shaq was still MVP material when he left... he was second in MVP voting the year after he left LAL while Kobe was nursing an injury.

And you say that Jordan played with Phil most of his career? He had 7 full seasons with Phil. Kobe had eleven.

sheesh
12-21-2014, 01:28 AM
You mean better than everyone? Kobe is the closest it gets to Jordan skill wise. If jordan is 10x better than kobe like Reggie said, then Reggie is 100000x worse than jordan because kobe is 100x better than Reggie.

Kobe is a better comparison to Jordan because they are the same size. They use the same moves.

DODGERS&LAKERS
12-21-2014, 01:31 AM
A guy did something right when he gets "dissed" when being compared to the best ever.

JasonJohnHorn
12-21-2014, 01:34 AM
I like miller, he went to my high school. But it's stupid of miller to even say Jordan was 10x better than kobe. Jordan might not even be 10x better than me. Yes, he is the greatest ever but this x(x) stuff is ridiculous.

I agree, it is hard to quantify is somebody is X-times better... I think Miller was being hyperbolic... but it is clear in my eyes that Jordan is head and shoulders above Kobe. I saw Jordan play against Clyde Drexler, who was one hell of a basketball player (and some of his peak season were as good or better than some of Kobe's), and not even Drexler could hope to truly compare to Jordan.

I never saw anybody go one-on-one with Jordan and look like he could match Jordan on his best night.

There were players at other positions, namely Hakeem as far as the 90's go, that could match Jordan, and Malone and Barkley could have pretty huge nights as well, but they didn't play the same position. And obviously going back to the 80's, Magic and Bird were phenoms.

But at the guard position... nobody has ever played as well as Jordan.

sheesh
12-21-2014, 01:37 AM
At that level the amount of skill and work needed to be seen as even a little bit better is astronomical. When you can just watch someone like Jordan and see how much better they were than Kobe, that is what they mean. It's hard to get into the NBA. It's hard to make a rotation. It's hard to be a starter. It's hard to be an allstar. It's hard to be a superstar. And it is hard to be considered a GOAT. Each level takes ten times as much skill, work, and natural feel/talent/instincts/whatever to reach.

Law of diminished returns. For Jordan to be that much better than every other guard is ridiculous. Since the better you get the harder it is to separate yourself and become even better.

But a lot of people here are answering the question why Jordan was a better guard than Kobe despite them having virtually identical size and skillset.

It can't just be the athleticism advantage because even when Jordan's athleticism faded in the 2nd three peat he was still a much better player than a prime Kobe ever was. So while it must have helped to be more athletic than Kobe he was still better than the best version of Kobe even as a mid 30s player when he wasn't just leaping and blowing by everyone. Therefore it must have been better IQ, ball handling and understanding of the game.

I can't stand when people just write off Jordan's superiority as a player and say it was only due to him a freak athlete.

Phenomenonsense
12-21-2014, 01:41 AM
Law of diminished returns. For Jordan to be that much better than every other guard is ridiculous. Since the better you get the harder it is to separate yourself and become even better.

But a lot of people here are answering the question why Jordan was a better guard than Kobe despite them having virtually identical size and skillset.

It can't just be the athleticism advantage because even when Jordan's athleticism faded in the 2nd three peat he was still a much better player than a prime Kobe ever was. So while it must have helped to be more athletic than Kobe he was still better than the best version of Kobe even as a mid 30s player when he wasn't just leaping and blowing by everyone. Therefore it must have been better IQ, ball handling and understanding of the game.

I can't stand when people just write off Jordan's superiority as a player and say it was only due to him a freak athlete.

The law of diminishing returns is exactly why it is correct to say that MJ is 10x better than Kobe. He was 10x better than him, but because of diminishing returns he only looks "Insert personal perception" better than Kobe.

DemarDerozan
12-21-2014, 01:44 AM
You gotta pay the toll troll to get into this boys soul... You gotta pay the toll troll to get in.

DemarDerozan
12-21-2014, 02:04 AM
Seriously though. Can't we just agree that Jordan is better than Kobe... But they are both legends who have made huge contributions to the sport.

DODGERS&LAKERS
12-21-2014, 02:11 AM
And for a player to be 10x better than another, shouldn't his numbers reflect 10x better production? As far as individual stats, Jordon is better than Kobe at everything, but just about 1% better. Kobe was a very good defender when he was young and could still shut down players when he put in effort at 34. Same could be said for Jordon. He was not the defensive beast his whole career that he was up until 1990. He, like Kobe began to float and allow Pippen to guard the opposing teams best players. Keep in mind these numbers reflect Kobe as an 18 year old kid, as well as a broken down old man.

Kobe TS%-55.3
Jordon TS% 56.9

Kobe TRB% 8.2
Jordon TRB% 9.4

Kobe AST % 24.3
Jordon AST % 24.9

Kobe STL% 2.1
Jordon STL% 3.1

Kobe BLK % 1.0
Jordon BLK% 1.4

Kobe TOV% 11.6
Jordon TOV% 9.3

Kobe's numbers were obtained in the toughest defensive era in NBA history, (as far as allowed production is concerned). They were both very good defenders, they were both a hole teammates, fierce competitors, and multiple time champions. But for some reason, even though their production is not too far off, one guy is regarded as the best ever and according to some in this thread, the other "maybe a top 25 player ever" LMFAO!

cmellofan15
12-21-2014, 02:15 AM
You mean better than everyone? Kobe is the closest it gets to Jordan skill wise. If jordan is 10x better than kobe like Reggie said, then Reggie is 100000x worse than jordan because kobe is 100x better than Reggie.

that's not how math works

Bostonjorge
12-21-2014, 02:19 AM
More like Jordan 91 finals run was 100x better them James 2011 finals run.

bucketss
12-21-2014, 02:22 AM
bigger,stronger,faster,more skilled,smarter.... literally better in ever facet of the game, and this is coming from a jordan hater.

nastynice
12-21-2014, 02:23 AM
Jordan's athleticism MAD underrated. They called him air jordan for a reason, dude had hang time like no other. He'd just keep elevating. You just sit there watching like, wtf, he's supposed to be on his way down by now. In his early years it showed on his drives to the basket, in his later years you could see it help with his shot, crazy body control, he could get his shoulders square from almost any angle.

Bostonjorge
12-21-2014, 02:25 AM
Jordan was not 10x better.

DemarDerozan
12-21-2014, 02:26 AM
More like Jordan 91 finals run was 100x better them James 2011 finals run.

James was a glorified RolePlayer then... Just like he is now. He had a team engineered to help him succeed and to fit his style of play. Now he's really being exposed for what he is.

DemarDerozan
12-21-2014, 02:29 AM
Jordan was not 10x better.

This. He was better and set the prototype... But Kobe is the second best shooting guard in league history and most likely a top ten player, maybe top five.

As far as longevity and dedication are concerned top three.

bucketss
12-21-2014, 02:34 AM
Jordan was not 10x better.

a bit of a exaggeration on his part but the whole "10x better" thing isn't really suppose to be taken literal, hes just saying hes a lot better, to me the diff. between kobe and jordan is equal to the diff between shaq and dwight.

jerellh528
12-21-2014, 02:38 AM
a bit of a exaggeration on his part but the whole "10x better" thing isn't really suppose to be taken literal, hes just saying hes a lot better, to me the diff. between kobe and jordan is equal to the diff between shaq and dwight.

Lol

DODGERS&LAKERS
12-21-2014, 02:39 AM
a bit of a exaggeration on his part but the whole "10x better" thing isn't really suppose to be taken literal, hes just saying hes a lot better, to me the diff. between kobe and jordan is equal to the diff between shaq and dwight.

But if you put Shaqs numbers next to Dwights, you see a big difference. A far greater difference between them then between MJ and Kobe. Why would it be an equal comparison to you?

Bostonjorge
12-21-2014, 02:39 AM
a bit of a exaggeration on his part but the whole "10x better" thing isn't really suppose to be taken literal, hes just saying hes a lot better, to me the diff. between kobe and jordan is equal to the diff between shaq and dwight.

That's not even close. I would say Duncan compared to Malone.

nastynice
12-21-2014, 02:53 AM
a bit of a exaggeration on his part but the whole "10x better" thing isn't really suppose to be taken literal, hes just saying hes a lot better, to me the diff. between kobe and jordan is equal to the diff between shaq and dwight.

that's a pretty extreme analogy right there. I think Kobe's earned more than that

jerellh528
12-21-2014, 02:54 AM
That's not even close. I would say Duncan compared to Malone.

I would say duncan to KG

Bostonjorge
12-21-2014, 03:03 AM
I would say duncan to KG

That is a better comparison since some would say kg is better then Duncan just like some would say Kobe is better then Jordan.

Kaner
12-21-2014, 03:16 AM
That is a better comparison since some would say kg is better then Duncan just like some would say Kobe is better then Jordan.

This is exactly why some would say it isn't a better comparison because no way Kobe was better then Jordan, I actually kinda got what Bucketts was saying about Shaq and Howard that Kobe is Jordan lite in the same way Howard is Shaq lite, although I think it's closer then that. Without putting too much thought into it my comparison would be Hakeem-Ewing

PowerHouse
12-21-2014, 03:40 AM
Lol. Miller says that because MJ used to always dominate his little skinny *** all over the court. I think what seperates MJ from Kobe is strength. MJ had incredible strength and Miller has said that guarding MJ when he posted up was like somebody trying to guard Shaq in the post.

He utilized his strength to get many high-percentage, near the basket shots. Something that Kobe couldnt do as effectively.

ThuglifeJ
12-21-2014, 04:00 AM
This has me nostalgic about the initial post Jordan days for some reason...you know when all that was ever talked about (deservingly) was MJ this MJ that... I think it took about until 2005 for that overwhelming phase to wear down... All that mattered was MJ and the "next Jordan".

That's all that mattered...not who's building a good team here but who's the next Jordan and how much he impacted the game...like mike..etc..so strange looking back at all that..NBA was totally different.

MTar786
12-21-2014, 04:07 AM
the reason mj was better is because kobe's decision making and shot selection is worse than russell westbrooks. just think about that for a second.

one other reason is that mj's defense was incredible. oh and his turn around fadeaway was slightly better than kobes too. and thats saying a lot!

MTar786
12-21-2014, 04:42 AM
the difference between jordan vs kobe is similar to the difference u get when u go to the app store and buy the free version vs the $1.99 version

kingsdelez24
12-21-2014, 04:59 AM
You gotta pay the toll troll to get into this boys soul... You gotta pay the toll troll to get in.

This

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-21-2014, 06:45 AM
Better athlete, huge hands, and simply a smarter basketball player.

I love how jjh went on a rant when you could explain it as easy as this. Lol

PhillyFaninLA
12-21-2014, 07:29 AM
The real question is how is Kobe so much better at basketball than the OP because we all know everyone has exactly the same size, skill set, ambition, heart, and work ethic.

PurpleLynch
12-21-2014, 08:12 AM
Man,MJ is arguably the best player of the entire sport. It's not a surprise that he was better than Kobe.
Plus stop saying that he mimicks MJ's moves. Playing in the post,for example,is not a MJ's trademark and just because Kobe relied a lot in his post's ability that doesn't mean that he's mimicking MJ.

KINGOFSPORTS
12-21-2014, 09:34 AM
this sure seems like a baiting thread to me, should be shut down

PurpleLynch
12-21-2014, 09:52 AM
this sure seems like a baiting thread to me, should be shut down

Pretty much on point.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
12-21-2014, 10:02 AM
One wasnt a ballhog and a rapist

sheesh
12-21-2014, 11:27 AM
But if you put Shaqs numbers next to Dwights, you see a big difference. A far greater difference between them then between MJ and Kobe. Why would it be an equal comparison to you?

If you have 2 runners who run a 15.0 100m dash and another who runs a 14.0 100 meter dash than the faster guy a lot better.

If you have 2 runners who run a 10.0 100 meter dash and a 9.50 100 meter dash then the faster guy is tremendously better than the slower guy.

See, it's the law of diminishing returns. Any little bit extra is so much more impressive the better quality of players and athletes you are talking about.

It's like weightlifting too. It's so easy to put on weight in the beginning. Try putting up more on your bench 12 years into training.

sheesh
12-21-2014, 11:31 AM
this sure seems like a baiting thread to me, should be shut down

A troll thread is created to illicit an emotional response from the reader. That's not the point of the thread. It's actually a good question.

Jordan and Kobe are the same size. Kobe copied all of Jordan's moves. He played exactly like him. So why was Jordan so much better?

Vince70
12-21-2014, 11:48 AM
Jordan has six rings as the man, Kobe has two rings as the man.

Jordan has five MVP's, Kobe has one MVP.

Jordan has six Finals MVP's, Kobe has two Finals MVP's.

Jordan won all his rings without a dominate HOF center in his prime, or a AS center at their peak.

Jordan won all his rings without having an all-nba 7 foot PF, whom put up 20 pts and 10 rebs a night and was top five in win shares, but Kobe had that when he won his 4th/5th rings.

Jordan had to beat far greater teams and iconic players to win his rings.

Jordan deserved every single all-nba defensive team honor, Kobe only earned half of his in the first half of his career.

Jordan also had one DPOY, while Kobe has none.

Jordan has Kobe beat in every statistical area (some big margins and some small) in terms of career average: Pts, rbs, ast, blk, stl, FG%, PER, WS.

Jordan reached the 32K mark in points in 200 less games and 400 less shots than Kobe.

MDD
12-21-2014, 12:07 PM
Mj was more driven ,it was more than basket ball to him he wanted to prove himself of all aspects of his being. He had more to prove than Kobe more to gain in a era where basketball was first everything else was second . Real rivalries with dislike for one another when he played. Some of these still don't like one another not to mention MJ has one of biggest egos in the world. When I see Kobe trying to Be like MJ it just seem like a actor trying to play the role of the person without truly being the person what they went through in life. The way he talk , the way he try's to act is not himself its trying to imitate Jordan . I watered down version of Jordan not to say Kobe is not one the greatest players ever he is just not as good as the person he's trying to be like.

ThuglifeJ
12-21-2014, 12:37 PM
The analogies kinda need to stop..

lamzoka
12-21-2014, 01:00 PM
Kobe is overrated

cahawk
12-21-2014, 01:24 PM
As to Age - Most agree that MJ should not have come back after 3 years out of the NBA to Wizards.
But MJ played smarter & more efficient even at 40.

Michael Jordans last year at age 40 stats: 20 ppg, .445 fg% & .291% 3's
kobe at age 36 stats: 24 ppg, .377 fg% & .268% 3's

koreancabbage
12-21-2014, 01:30 PM
the epiphany of Kobe Bryant's career


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmh9CieV0Io

sheesh
12-21-2014, 01:32 PM
The analogies kinda need to stop..

Why? Most people have no idea what the law of diminishing returns are. An analogy is a way to help them understand why Jordan's greatness was so incredible.

jericho
12-21-2014, 01:38 PM
I never understood what people meant by "much better" or "ten times better." I get that they don't truly mean that but one great to another great, how can you be that much better? Surely, everyone has a limit and I just don't think Jordan was MUCH better than Kobe. Better? Yes. But I don't see much better.

Disagree. Jordan was that MUCH better than Kobe. Not just better.

Tony_Starks
12-21-2014, 01:46 PM
Reggie Miller sounded so incredibly haterific. But you have to understand his Jedi mind tricks. By nut hugging MJ so hard it gives him a "legit" excuse for getting stomped by the Bulls on a regular. Its like "hey MJ is so great NOBODY could beat him!" ......Even though Kid Kobe gave Reggie the complete business in the Finals with Shaq sitting on the bench fouled out.....

Vinylman
12-21-2014, 01:55 PM
Better athlete, huge hands, and simply a smarter basketball player.

The bolded is simply the difference between the two when you consider kobe has puny hands....

hand size is so underrated it is mind boggling

KingPosey
12-21-2014, 02:09 PM
I kinda think ball handling is the one thing Kobe has that is on par with Jordan's or better. Kobe can move with the basketball

KingPosey
12-21-2014, 02:11 PM
Miller used a hyperbole. And it's subjective and you're entitled to your opinion.

It's not really subjective, Jordan was a LOT better, but Kobe is a HOF and a stud

Teufelshunde4
12-21-2014, 03:35 PM
Law of diminished returns. For Jordan to be that much better than every other guard is ridiculous. Since the better you get the harder it is to separate yourself and become even better.

But a lot of people here are answering the question why Jordan was a better guard than Kobe despite them having virtually identical size and skillset.

It can't just be the athleticism advantage because even when Jordan's athleticism faded in the 2nd three peat he was still a much better player than a prime Kobe ever was. So while it must have helped to be more athletic than Kobe he was still better than the best version of Kobe even as a mid 30s player when he wasn't just leaping and blowing by everyone. Therefore it must have been better IQ, ball handling and understanding of the game.

I can't stand when people just write off Jordan's superiority as a player and say it was only due to him a freak athlete.

Honestly ones MJ truly could see the game differently then 99% of the players. Kobe has had a spectacular career. And there is no shame being considered 2nd best of all time.

Side note... MJ played in the days of actual fouls and tough defense. Kobe has spent the large part of his career playing with no touch rules. Id pay to see the stars of today handle daily beat downs game in and game out by stout defensive teams.
Very few could handle that grind.

nickdymez
12-21-2014, 03:55 PM
And for a player to be 10x better than another, shouldn't his numbers reflect 10x better production? As far as individual stats, Jordon is better than Kobe at everything, but just about 1% better. Kobe was a very good defender when he was young and could still shut down players when he put in effort at 34. Same could be said for Jordon. He was not the defensive beast his whole career that he was up until 1990. He, like Kobe began to float and allow Pippen to guard the opposing teams best players. Keep in mind these numbers reflect Kobe as an 18 year old kid, as well as a broken down old man.

Kobe TS%-55.3
Jordon TS% 56.9

Kobe TRB% 8.2
Jordon TRB% 9.4

Kobe AST % 24.3
Jordon AST % 24.9

Kobe STL% 2.1
Jordon STL% 3.1

Kobe BLK % 1.0
Jordon BLK% 1.4

Kobe TOV% 11.6
Jordon TOV% 9.3

Kobe's numbers were obtained in the toughest defensive era in NBA history, (as far as allowed production is concerned). They were both very good defenders, they were both a hole teammates, fierce competitors, and multiple time champions. But for some reason, even though their production is not too far off, one guy is regarded as the best ever and according to some in this thread, the other "maybe a top 25 player ever" LMFAO!

Great post

Jamiecballer
12-21-2014, 04:20 PM
intelligence. simply a matter of intelligence. MJ learned to put team first.

ThuglifeJ
12-21-2014, 04:22 PM
The analogies kinda need to stop..

Why? Most people have no idea what the law of diminishing returns are. An analogy is a way to help them understand why Jordan's greatness was so incredible.

Because the ones in this thread are just awful

Jamiecballer
12-21-2014, 04:24 PM
a bit of a exaggeration on his part but the whole "10x better" thing isn't really suppose to be taken literal, hes just saying hes a lot better, to me the diff. between kobe and jordan is equal to the diff between shaq and dwight.

actually that's a pretty good way of putting it. great players both but one is just on a whole nother level.

quade36
12-21-2014, 05:40 PM
Kobe's numbers were obtained in the toughest defensive era in NBA history, (as far as allowed production is concerned). They were both very good defenders, LMFAO!

Sorry did I miss the era Kobe played in? If you think defense was tough in the last 15 years compared to previous years well then, you must not have watched the previous years. Particularly with all the calls against defense to benefit offensive players now.

I'd love to see the Bad Boys do the Kobe rules and see how he'd fair. Kobe plays in an era were there were hand check fouls, easily called flagrant fouls oh and of course the zone defense. Jordan would get hammered and held every time he posted up yet it would either be just a hard foul or a no call.

Also it is somewhat ironic that Kobe himself just said defense in this era (post 2000) was weak

Crackadalic
12-21-2014, 05:51 PM
Jordan is better but 10x betters or anything in that talk will always be towards having more rings and more mvps etc. Jordan is the more decorated player in terms of team accomplishments and individual awards but there skill set and determination to win is just so much closer

DODGERS&LAKERS
12-21-2014, 06:04 PM
Sorry did I miss the era Kobe played in? If you think defense was tough in the last 15 years compared to previous years well then, you must not have watched the previous years. Particularly with all the calls against defense to benefit offensive players now.

I'd love to see the Bad Boys do the Kobe rules and see how he'd fair. Kobe plays in an era were there were hand check fouls, easily called flagrant fouls oh and of course the zone defense. Jordan would get hammered and held every time he posted up yet it would either be just a hard foul or a no call.

Also it is somewhat ironic that Kobe himself just said defense in this era (post 2000) was weak

Being rough with players and actually not allowing them to score are two different things. The era Kobe has played in his entire career has had the lowest defensive rating per/100 in league history. Especially from 2000 to 2005.
Jordan never had to face zone defenses where they would essentially put a guard in front of him and a big man standing between them and the rim. They would have attempted to keep him out of the paint settling for jump shots a lot more than he had to just by beating his man one on one. Defenses are more intricate than ever, and them not allowing as many points scored per 100 possessions than any other era proves that.

JasonJohnHorn
12-21-2014, 07:30 PM
I love how jjh went on a rant when you could explain it as easy as this. Lol

I actually thought the same thing after I read his... lol. I just get worked up when people even suggest there is a debate about this.

Hawkeye15
12-21-2014, 07:37 PM
The bolded is simply the difference between the two when you consider kobe has puny hands....

hand size is so underrated it is mind boggling

Jordan was a better athlete too. Stronger, jumped higher (a lot higher actually), but yes, the hand size is so big. I don't even know if Kobe can palm it??? Huge difference when finishing after contact. Jordan was also able to keep his balance in the air no matter what, which is freakish.

Kobe is a lesser version, for sure, and a great, great player. But MJ was just a freakish athlete, with all the physical tools to be great at basketball, and the same mindframe Kobe has.

Lakersfolife
12-21-2014, 07:40 PM
When you watch Jordan all you see is highlights, if you didn't see him play a full game then you don't know what your talking about. Jordan obviously didn't create the game of basketball and "His moves" he took from other players he watched growing up, or played against. Kobe and all other basketball players are just borrowing those same moves and perfecting them. Stats are great and all but they didn't play against the same players, they didn't play even with the same rules, zone Defenses weren't allowed back then, that was illegal D if you tried that. Didn't have a Defensive 3 in the key. Best way to tell whose better is to watch them play a game, watching highlights , using your eyes. Because if you do then you'll plainly see that Jordan was the most athletic player in his time and that gave him a huge advantage. When Iverson came into the NBA Jordan could barely hang with guarding him, Kobe shut him down for a whole Game. Kobe's Handles are way better than Jordan's when both players where at there primes. Kobe has suffered way more injuries than Jordan had which is why he is playing the way he is playing at 36.
Jordan is 1 of the GOAT but so is Kobe, Magic, and so on. My eyeballs show me that Kobe is better than Jordan, when i look at the highlights I'm more impressed with Kobe's moves than Jordan's Athleticism.

tredigs
12-21-2014, 07:41 PM
And for a player to be 10x better than another, shouldn't his numbers reflect 10x better production? As far as individual stats, Jordon is better than Kobe at everything, but just about 1% better. Kobe was a very good defender when he was young and could still shut down players when he put in effort at 34. Same could be said for Jordon. He was not the defensive beast his whole career that he was up until 1990. He, like Kobe began to float and allow Pippen to guard the opposing teams best players. Keep in mind these numbers reflect Kobe as an 18 year old kid, as well as a broken down old man.

Kobe TS%-55.3
Jordon TS% 56.9

Kobe TRB% 8.2
Jordon TRB% 9.4

Kobe AST % 24.3
Jordon AST % 24.9

Kobe STL% 2.1
Jordon STL% 3.1

Kobe BLK % 1.0
Jordon BLK% 1.4

Kobe TOV% 11.6
Jordon TOV% 9.3

Kobe's numbers were obtained in the toughest defensive era in NBA history, (as far as allowed production is concerned). They were both very good defenders, they were both a hole teammates, fierce competitors, and multiple time champions. But for some reason, even though their production is not too far off, one guy is regarded as the best ever and according to some in this thread, the other "maybe a top 25 player ever" LMFAO!


Do you think these metrics are indicative of there actually being roughly a 1% difference between the two players? Let's take a look at them through their 1000 game prime (ages 21 to 34)*. Jordan was a rookie at 21 while Kobe was seasoned and entering his 4th year, but we'll give him the benefit. These #'s will also ignore the much larger disparity that was created in the playoffs.


Kobe:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html#2000-2013-sum:advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html#2000-2013-sum:per_game

Jordan:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1998-sum:advanced

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1998-sum:per_game

Summarized:

Jordan: 31.5 PPG l 6.3 RPG l 5.4 APG l 2.5 SPG l 1.0 BPG l 2.8 TPG lll TS% 58 l PER 29.1 l WS/48 .274 l BPM 8.3 l VORP 93.2 l Defensie BPM 1.0

Kobe: 27.8 PPG l 5.7 RPG l 5.2 APG l 1.6 SPG l 0.5 BPG l 3.2 TPG lll TS% 55.6 l PER 24.1 l WS/48 .190 l BPM 4.5 l VORP 66.2 l Defensive BPM -0.5


Personal Accolades:

Jordan: 5X MVP. 6X FMVP. 1X DPOY. 8.2 Career MVP Award Shares (#1 All Time)

Kobe: 1X MVP. 2X FMVP. 4.2 Career MVP Award Shares (#11 All Time. Includes All Seasons)

*Those with large to massive discrepancies in bold.

"1%"?

tredigs
12-21-2014, 07:44 PM
When you watch Jordan all you see is highlights, if you didn't see him play a full game then you don't know what your talking about. Jordan obviously didn't create the game of basketball and "His moves" he took from other players he watched growing up, or played against. Kobe and all other basketball players are just borrowing those same moves and perfecting them. Stats are great and all but they didn't play against the same players, they didn't play even with the same rules, zone Defenses weren't allowed back then, that was illegal D if you tried that. Didn't have a Defensive 3 in the key. Best way to tell whose better is to watch them play a game, watching highlights , using your eyes. Because if you do then you'll plainly see that Jordan was the most athletic player in his time and that gave him a huge advantage. When Iverson came into the NBA Jordan could barely hang with guarding him, Kobe shut him down for a whole Game. Kobe's Handles are way better than Jordan's when both players where at there primes. Kobe has suffered way more injuries than Jordan had which is why he is playing the way he is playing at 36.
Jordan is 1 of the GOAT but so is Kobe, Magic, and so on. My eyeballs show me that Kobe is better than Jordan, when i look at the highlights I'm more impressed with Kobe's moves than Jordan's Athleticism.
Which is interesting, because stats that definitively prove otherwise aside, and the massive wave of public opinion that disagree with you also aside, there is not one player who actually played against both who agrees with you. Who knows though, maybe everyone is just wrong.

bucketss
12-21-2014, 07:58 PM
When you watch Jordan all you see is highlights, if you didn't see him play a full game then you don't know what your talking about. Jordan obviously didn't create the game of basketball and "His moves" he took from other players he watched growing up, or played against. Kobe and all other basketball players are just borrowing those same moves and perfecting them. Stats are great and all but they didn't play against the same players, they didn't play even with the same rules, zone Defenses weren't allowed back then, that was illegal D if you tried that. Didn't have a Defensive 3 in the key. Best way to tell whose better is to watch them play a game, watching highlights , using your eyes. Because if you do then you'll plainly see that Jordan was the most athletic player in his time and that gave him a huge advantage. When Iverson came into the NBA Jordan could barely hang with guarding him, Kobe shut him down for a whole Game. Kobe's Handles are way better than Jordan's when both players where at there primes. Kobe has suffered way more injuries than Jordan had which is why he is playing the way he is playing at 36.
Jordan is 1 of the GOAT but so is Kobe, Magic, and so on. My eyeballs show me that Kobe is better than Jordan, when i look at the highlights I'm more impressed with Kobe's moves than Jordan's Athleticism.

well, my eyes tell me jordan is better, actually my eyes tell me that kobe is not even top ten all time. but as you know eyes can deceive,

Teufelshunde4
12-21-2014, 09:30 PM
Being rough with players and actually not allowing them to score are two different things. The era Kobe has played in his entire career has had the lowest defensive rating per/100 in league history. Especially from 2000 to 2005.
Jordan never had to face zone defenses where they would essentially put a guard in front of him and a big man standing between them and the rim. They would have attempted to keep him out of the paint settling for jump shots a lot more than he had to just by beating his man one on one. Defenses are more intricate than ever, and them not allowing as many points scored per 100 possessions than any other era proves that.

Go watch how often MJ would be guarded one on one... As soon as MJ touched the ball teams doubled and triple teamed him. The triangle helped keep floor spacing so that team paid the price when they did double team.

As MJ matured he learned to post up more then drive wildly to the rim.. Mj learned how to apply his will at critical moments in a game that killed opponents.

Bruno
12-21-2014, 09:32 PM
So after Reggie Miller said Jordan was 10 times better than Kobe I decided to watch the 91 finals again because I have the DVD.

It's true, it's not even close. But my question is how was Jordan able to be so much better?

Jordan didn't have size advantage. He wasn't a better shooter. Kobe ended up mimicking Jordan's game. Kobe just took all his moves.

Maybe it's the handle? I noticed that Kobe's ball handling isn't on par with Jordan's. What else though?

MJ had a stronger body and had 'billion dollar hands', as referred to as by Phil Jackson.

his bigger hands gave him greater control over the ball and thus allowed him to attack the basket with more power and precision. his strong body allowed him to be more of a bully on defense, his era also allowed that.
MJ also never had to face box zones. they double him, but that was childs play for a player of Jordans caliber. to stop an MJ you're only good chance would have been a box zone, and it was illegal in his era.

all those things contribute to jordan having more success and contributing at a higher level. were talking about the GOAT and a top ten player ever. the gap is notable, not drastic. MJ was better than Kobe regardless of era rules, but those things are worth mentioning.

andy2518
12-21-2014, 09:51 PM
a bit of a exaggeration on his part but the whole "10x better" thing isn't really suppose to be taken literal, hes just saying hes a lot better, to me the diff. between kobe and jordan is equal to the diff between shaq and dwight.

This has to be the dumbest thing I have heard on this site.

Jeffy25
12-21-2014, 10:12 PM
I think a lot of it was speed burst and quickness. According to people who defended both, I have heard that when Jordan was coming toward you with the ball, he just got on you so quickly that you never had the opportunity to properly prepare to defend him, like you could with Kobe.

But many also said that Kobe was a better pure shooter, just that Jordan was able to get to the basket so much more quickly and easily because of his explosiveness.

That's an assumption for me of course, but it could help explain things.

DODGERS&LAKERS
12-21-2014, 11:09 PM
Do you think these metrics are indicative of there actually being roughly a 1% difference between the two players? Let's take a look at them through their 1000 game prime (ages 21 to 34)*. Jordan was a rookie at 21 while Kobe was seasoned and entering his 4th year, but we'll give him the benefit. These #'s will also ignore the much larger disparity that was created in the playoffs.


Kobe:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html#2000-2013-sum:advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html#2000-2013-sum:per_game

Jordan:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1998-sum:advanced

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1998-sum:per_game

Summarized:

Jordan: 31.5 PPG l 6.3 RPG l 5.4 APG l 2.5 SPG l 1.0 BPG l 2.8 TPG lll TS% 58 l PER 29.1 l WS/48 .274 l BPM 8.3 l VORP 93.2 l Defensie BPM 1.0

Kobe: 27.8 PPG l 5.7 RPG l 5.2 APG l 1.6 SPG l 0.5 BPG l 3.2 TPG lll TS% 55.6 l PER 24.1 l WS/48 .190 l BPM 4.5 l VORP 66.2 l Defensive BPM -0.5


Personal Accolades:

Jordan: 5X MVP. 6X FMVP. 1X DPOY. 8.2 Career MVP Award Shares (#1 All Time)

Kobe: 1X MVP. 2X FMVP. 4.2 Career MVP Award Shares (#11 All Time. Includes All Seasons)

*Those with large to massive discrepancies in bold.

"1%"?

The reason I and many others go with percentage of possessions is because your per game stats don't take into account the massive difference in pace between generations. Scoring 30 points a game in 1980 is less impressive than scoring 28 points a game in 2014. Same goes for assist, rebounds, steals.... you get the picture.

Jordan was the better player. In every facet of the game. But per game stats dont tell me that

KnicksorBust
12-21-2014, 11:10 PM
As someone who spendt his whole life as a Knicks fan, it seemed like whenever Jordan needed to he would find a way to drive to the basket. He settled for the more difficult shot far fewer times than Kobe.

DODGERS&LAKERS
12-21-2014, 11:16 PM
As someone who spendt his whole life as a Knicks fan, it seemed like whenever Jordan needed to he would find a way to drive to the basket. He settled for the more difficult shot far fewer times than Kobe.

Kobes shot selection was ridiculous. He far too often played for the ooh's and ahh's of the crowd. He tried shots he had no business taking even though they are percentage busters. When he was younger if he hit two or three threes in a row he would do a heat check and take a 3 from 5 to 10 feet behind the line to see how hot he was. when he broke his shoulder he stayed in the game to take four or five shots with his left hand just so he could get shots up. there has never been a shot he didn't like

Bruno
12-21-2014, 11:32 PM
As someone who spendt his whole life as a Knicks fan, it seemed like whenever Jordan needed to he would find a way to drive to the basket. He settled for the more difficult shot far fewer times than Kobe.

this is a short and perfectly sweet way to put it.

whether or not this is a BBIQ situation, or simply that Jordan had better tools to attack the basket, I don't know. I lean towards the physical tools.

sheesh
12-22-2014, 01:02 AM
As someone who spendt his whole life as a Knicks fan, it seemed like whenever Jordan needed to he would find a way to drive to the basket. He settled for the more difficult shot far fewer times than Kobe.

Jordan took far less bad shots and still had a higher USG% than Kobe. It's like he could generate his own look at will.

Jeffy25
12-22-2014, 01:12 AM
the epiphany of Kobe Bryant's career


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmh9CieV0Io

With Lin open at the 3

Notice nobody trying to get open though?

The play is Kobe, go create it.

sheesh
12-22-2014, 01:12 AM
this is a short and perfectly sweet way to put it.

whether or not this is a BBIQ situation, or simply that Jordan had better tools to attack the basket, I don't know. I lean towards the physical tools.

It can't just be athleticism though. In the 2nd 3peat Jordan wasn't as athletic as he once was. Yet he was still playing at an absurdly high level. During the playoffs he still showed he was without a doubt the best player in the NBA in his mid 30s. I'm not a doctor, but I know no 34 year old still has that same lift and quickness.

Over the regular season grind of 82 games Jordan couldn't sustain his younger output, but during the playoffs he would dial it up like it was the late 80s/early 90s.

Jeffy25
12-22-2014, 01:17 AM
Which is interesting, because stats that definitively prove otherwise aside, and the massive wave of public opinion that disagree with you also aside, there is not one player who actually played against both who agrees with you. Who knows though, maybe everyone is just wrong.

And it couldn't be that he is a Laker fan, could it?

Does anyone outside of LA think that Kobe was better than Jordan?

tredigs
12-22-2014, 01:43 AM
The reason I and many others go with percentage of possessions is because your per game stats don't take into account the massive difference in pace between generations. Scoring 30 points a game in 1980 is less impressive than scoring 28 points a game in 2014. Same goes for assist, rebounds, steals.... you get the picture.

Jordan was the better player. In every facet of the game. But per game stats dont tell me that

#1. Many of those stats take pace into account (that's the "per 100 TEAM possessions" portion you were looking at when talking about stats like VORP being a team stat. Which it isn't.)

#2. Jordan's Bulls ran either the slowest or amongst the slowest pace every season. During Kobe's tenure the Lakers have never fallen below a pace of 90 (ie 90 possessions per 48 minutes), peaking at a pace of 99. Jordan's Bulls began at 99 during the high paced 1980's, but they fell to 89 by the time they won their last title.

Overall? The pace disparity was inconsequential as far as the per game stats are concerned.

DODGERS&LAKERS
12-22-2014, 01:49 AM
And it couldn't be that he is a Laker fan, could it?

Does anyone outside of LA think that Kobe was better than Jordan?

Is there anyone even in LA that thinks Kobe was better than Jordan? I have yet to ever meet anyone who says that and legitamately believes it.

Jeffy25
12-22-2014, 01:49 AM
Is there anyone even in LA that thinks Kobe was better than Jordan? I have yet to ever meet anyone who says that and legitamately believes it.

Follow the quoted posts, dude said it

Shlumpledink
12-22-2014, 03:13 AM
Why was Babe Ruth better than everybody else? Why was Jim Brown so much better than everybody else?

They were way better than their competition.

We judge players out of eras so much based on how people look based on how they look playing against people from their own era. Jordan was way better than his competition, but the league has gotten better over the years thanks to Jordan. Jordan can be credited with helping the league's popularity and globalization (coupled with that awesome Nike campaign and Disney backing.) This means that more people got into basketball and a lot more talent was entering the league.

So many super athletic swingmen in the game today. Jordan was the big shooting guard who was very athletic who happened to be amazing at basketball. Now every team has 2-3 athletic shooting guard/small forwards who are 6'6 - 6'7. Defensive schemes have gotten better and the capabilities of players to play defense get better as their length and athleticism improves, all they need is that x factor of motivation, what motivates players better than playing against an all time great they watched while playing basketball? That is something that happens to the Lakers/Kobe

Sure the East is godawful, but imagine if the league had just expanded how thinned out the talent would be. That is what happened in the time that coincided with Jordan's prime. This is one factor that people don't talk about, expansions thin out the league and lower the overall product.

They play the game differently at their core, but they have a lot of the same moves. To deny the individual talent of players hasn't evolved is to be clinging to denial and nostalgia. These guys are better athletes than the players of yesteryear. Eventually they are going to have to expand the court if players keep on the trend of being larger and more athletic, similar to the way the rules were changed for Lew Alcindor when he started dominating. How were the rules changed because of Jordan?

tredigs
12-22-2014, 05:29 AM
Why was Babe Ruth better than everybody else? Why was Jim Brown so much better than everybody else?

They were way better than their competition.

We judge players out of eras so much based on how people look based on how they look playing against people from their own era. Jordan was way better than his competition, but the league has gotten better over the years thanks to Jordan. Jordan can be credited with helping the league's popularity and globalization (coupled with that awesome Nike campaign and Disney backing.) This means that more people got into basketball and a lot more talent was entering the league.

So many super athletic swingmen in the game today. Jordan was the big shooting guard who was very athletic who happened to be amazing at basketball. Now every team has 2-3 athletic shooting guard/small forwards who are 6'6 - 6'7. Defensive schemes have gotten better and the capabilities of players to play defense get better as their length and athleticism improves, all they need is that x factor of motivation, what motivates players better than playing against an all time great they watched while playing basketball? That is something that happens to the Lakers/Kobe

Sure the East is godawful, but imagine if the league had just expanded how thinned out the talent would be. That is what happened in the time that coincided with Jordan's prime. This is one factor that people don't talk about, expansions thin out the league and lower the overall product.

They play the game differently at their core, but they have a lot of the same moves. To deny the individual talent of players hasn't evolved is to be clinging to denial and nostalgia. These guys are better athletes than the players of yesteryear. Eventually they are going to have to expand the court if players keep on the trend of being larger and more athletic, similar to the way the rules were changed for Lew Alcindor when he started dominating. How were the rules changed because of Jordan?
lmao "Babe Ruth". Apt comparison brother. But remember, this guy played nearing the age of 40 as a slow older man and put up 20/4/6 on 45% from the field in 2003. Just a slight exaggeration, you think?

Also, I'm not sure I'm fully comprehending your point on expansion. As a rookie he was putting up 27/6/6 on 52% from the field against a league with just 23 teams. Is that not more saturated with talent than our current 30 (which by your logic, should be thinner than ever)?

Andrew32
12-22-2014, 09:18 AM
Why was Jordan better?

#1. Better understanding of the team game and better at playing off the ball so on-ball players could thrive to the fullness of their capability.

#2. Better BBIQ and shot selection. He would find other ways to contribute if his shot wasn't falling while Kobe is generally more inclined to just gun until the cows go home. Not to say Jordan wouldn't gun at times but he was better at reigning himself in.

#3. Much better defender in part due to a much stronger motor.

#4. Vastly superior slasher who could forcefully attain high percentage shots near the rim much better then Kobe could/can.

#5. More efficient and more consistent. More reliable against tougher defenses in part due to his slashing ability but also due to his better shot selection.

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Shaq
4. Russell
5. Duncan
6. Magic
7. Hakeem
8. Bird
9. Wilt
10. Lebron
11. West
12. Kobe

basketfan4life
12-22-2014, 10:24 AM
Firstly, Jordan was not the glory hound that Kobe was. Jordan's first and last priority was winning. That meant the ego had nothing to do with it. If he had the best shot, he took it, if somebody else had it, he passed it. He gave Paxon and Kerr game winning shots. Robert Horry had to get an offensive rebound to take a game winning shot with Kobe on the floor (a rebound off a Kobe miss mind you).

Jordan was a better passer. A better rebounder. Jordan was perhaps the best defensive shooting guard in the history of the game. He defense was incredible. AMAZING.

He was a better post player; he was a better shooter. He was better at creating offense.

Everything Kobe does well, Jordan did better.

Kobe is easily the second best shooting guard the game has ever seen, but the distance between first and second is twice as bigger as the gap between second and third.


And Jordan NEVER took STUPID shots with the hope of hitting a miracle shot and getting into the highlight reel or being seen as a hero. He broke down defenses and made shots.


Now anybody who has read a number of my posts knows that I don't like Kobe's style or Kobe as a person, but that doesn't mean I don't have respect for his game. And that said, I am a Bad Boys fan from back in the day and there is not a player I ever had more hatred (and I mean hatred in the sporting sense, not the literal sense) than Jordan. I don't rank Jordan as the best player ever, though it is close. I do recognize him as easily the greatest shooting guard to ever play the game, and as much as I hated watching him win 6 championships, I have to admit that there is no way Kobe has ever reached the level Jordan played at. I'd like to say there is a shooting guard better than Jordan, but there simply isn't. Not even close.


At the age of 39 he was playing better basketball than Kobe is playing now.

And anybody who saw Jordan play during the 88/89 season... fawking forgit about it. 32/8/8 with almost 3 steals? Kobe has never demonstrated that kind of all around game. EVER. 37 points per game? Kobe never touched that. And look at per100: Jordan averaged 40 for his career! As his as 46! Kobe never even sniffed 40 until this year, and this is only because Byron Scott lets a guy who is shooting under .400 take as many shots as he wants to.


Anybody who thinks there is anything resembling an argument in favour of Kobe simply never saw Jordan play in his prime. And look at the ring count. I don't normally go by that, but let's be honest, it took Jordan SEVEN years to win his first one, battling Bird and Thomas and Magic... and he STILL won SIX RINGS despite not winning his first one until he was 27. Kobe was drafted by a contender and won his first title when he was 21 and he still doesn't have Jodran's ring count and is NEVER going to match his finals MVP count.

This isn't even a conversation.

robbert horry also scored a game winnig shot of off a pass from Kobe so what's the point? Do you mean a hundred of a hundred times Jordan give the correct pass?

Is scoing 35,4 means not even touching to 37? How about that.

Sometimes you come close to being logical than your hate takes over.

sheesh
12-22-2014, 04:55 PM
Why was Babe Ruth better than everybody else? Why was Jim Brown so much better than everybody else?

They were way better than their competition.

We judge players out of eras so much based on how people look based on how they look playing against people from their own era. Jordan was way better than his competition, but the league has gotten better over the years thanks to Jordan. Jordan can be credited with helping the league's popularity and globalization (coupled with that awesome Nike campaign and Disney backing.) This means that more people got into basketball and a lot more talent was entering the league.

So many super athletic swingmen in the game today. Jordan was the big shooting guard who was very athletic who happened to be amazing at basketball. Now every team has 2-3 athletic shooting guard/small forwards who are 6'6 - 6'7. Defensive schemes have gotten better and the capabilities of players to play defense get better as their length and athleticism improves, all they need is that x factor of motivation, what motivates players better than playing against an all time great they watched while playing basketball? That is something that happens to the Lakers/Kobe

Sure the East is godawful, but imagine if the league had just expanded how thinned out the talent would be. That is what happened in the time that coincided with Jordan's prime. This is one factor that people don't talk about, expansions thin out the league and lower the overall product.

They play the game differently at their core, but they have a lot of the same moves. To deny the individual talent of players hasn't evolved is to be clinging to denial and nostalgia. These guys are better athletes than the players of yesteryear. Eventually they are going to have to expand the court if players keep on the trend of being larger and more athletic, similar to the way the rules were changed for Lew Alcindor when he started dominating. How were the rules changed because of Jordan?

Jordan didn't help create a better and stronger league. In the immediate aftermath of Jordan's second retirement the league sucked. The early 2000s were very weak. Everybody was playing hero ball, taking long 2's. Taking a billion shots per game. Team basketball was dead.

The league should get stronger now that the Spurs put on a team basketball clinic.

SteelerKing
12-22-2014, 06:18 PM
Jordan didn't have size advantage. He wasn't a better shooter.

Jordan was a significantly better shooter. He shot almost 50% for his career (it was over 50 until his final couple of seasons as a nearly 40 year old man with bad knees) while Kobe has only shot 45%. That may look like a small difference on paper, but in the basketball world when comparing two players from the same position, it's huge. To put it in perspective, the SG with the highest field goal percentage this season is Kyle Korver at 51.9%, which is good enough for 18th among all players including forwards and centers. The two SGs who are roughly 5% lower are Victor Oladipo and Danny Green at 61st and 64th respectively. Jordan also shot over 50% six times in his career while Kobe has never done so and Jordan never shot under 40% like Kobe has.

All that aside, Jordan is probably the fiercest competitor to ever play the game of basketball. Throw that into the mix with being a better, smarter, more skilled overall athlete who was also a better defender and you have the answer to your question as well as the basic ingredients for why most people (myself included) consider him the GOAT.

gaughan333
12-22-2014, 07:49 PM
I think he meant physically better shooter vs. more efficient shooter

andy2518
12-22-2014, 08:46 PM
Why was Jordan better?

#1. Better understanding of the team game and better at playing off the ball so on-ball players could thrive to the fullness of their capability.

#2. Better BBIQ and shot selection. He would find other ways to contribute if his shot wasn't falling while Kobe is generally more inclined to just gun until the cows go home. Not to say Jordan wouldn't gun at times but he was better at reigning himself in.

#3. Much better defender in part due to a much stronger motor.

#4. Vastly superior slasher who could forcefully attain high percentage shots near the rim much better then Kobe could/can.

#5. More efficient and more consistent. More reliable against tougher defenses in part due to his slashing ability but also due to his better shot selection.

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Shaq
4. Russell
5. Duncan
6. Magic
7. Hakeem
8. Bird
9. Wilt
10. Lebron
11. West
12. Kobe

Your list makes no logical sense to me. You seem to be rewarding for championships with Russell and Duncan in your top five. Then you penalize guys like Kobe and Bird. Especially Kobe. You then rank Shaq in your top three I can only assume for his overall dominance, then by your own contradiction you have Wilt who was one of the most dominant players of all time as well at the nine spot. Then you rank Lebron over guys like Kobe and West who clearly have accomplished more over the course of their careers. If you wanna use statistical dominance as your reasoning, then again why Wilt only at number nine. Why rank guys like Magic, Duncan, and Russell so high but not Kobe. Even Bird over Kobe with this sort of logic you are using makes absolutely zero sense to me.

SteelerKing
12-22-2014, 08:55 PM
I think he meant physically better shooter vs. more efficient shooter

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

Better looking shots/more aesthetic? Jordan and Kobe are comparable there if for no other reason than Kobe even admitted to stealing Jordan's moves. I'll admit that sometimes Kobe "looked" Jordan-esque but to me, better shooter is better shooter. You could have the prettiest looking shots and moves in the world but the only thing that counts is if the ball finds the bucket. Jordan did that better than Kobe, as I hopefully illustrated above with their shooting percentage disparity, so therefore the statement about Jordan not being a better shooter is false.

sheesh
12-22-2014, 10:14 PM
I'm not sure what you're saying here.

Better looking shots/more aesthetic? Jordan and Kobe are comparable there if for no other reason than Kobe even admitted to stealing Jordan's moves. I'll admit that sometimes Kobe "looked" Jordan-esque but to me, better shooter is better shooter. You could have the prettiest looking shots and moves in the world but the only thing that counts is if the ball finds the bucket. Jordan did that better than Kobe, as I hopefully illustrated above with their shooting percentage disparity, so therefore the statement about Jordan not being a better shooter is false.

Better shooting percentage doesn't equal better shooter. It means you are more efficient putting the ball in the hole.

Is Jordan a better shooter than Stephen Curry? No absolutely not.

Chronz
12-22-2014, 10:39 PM
I'm not sure what you're saying here.

Better looking shots/more aesthetic? Jordan and Kobe are comparable there if for no other reason than Kobe even admitted to stealing Jordan's moves. I'll admit that sometimes Kobe "looked" Jordan-esque but to me, better shooter is better shooter. You could have the prettiest looking shots and moves in the world but the only thing that counts is if the ball finds the bucket. Jordan did that better than Kobe, as I hopefully illustrated above with their shooting percentage disparity, so therefore the statement about Jordan not being a better shooter is false.

They mean to say Kobe has more range, just like a plethora of inferior players did.

Chronz
12-22-2014, 10:40 PM
Better shooting percentage doesn't equal better shooter. It means you are more efficient putting the ball in the hole.

Is Jordan a better shooter than Stephen Curry? No absolutely not.
That's a subjective take. Objectively, mj was better at getting the ball into the basket.

You can't say some one else can't interpret that as better shooting

FlashBolt
12-22-2014, 10:47 PM
I'm not sure what you're saying here.

Better looking shots/more aesthetic? Jordan and Kobe are comparable there if for no other reason than Kobe even admitted to stealing Jordan's moves. I'll admit that sometimes Kobe "looked" Jordan-esque but to me, better shooter is better shooter. You could have the prettiest looking shots and moves in the world but the only thing that counts is if the ball finds the bucket. Jordan did that better than Kobe, as I hopefully illustrated above with their shooting percentage disparity, so therefore the statement about Jordan not being a better shooter is false.

Kobe certainly had more range than Jordan. I think that's what we all meant. But we all have to judge it sparingly. Simply looking at FG% doesn't do any justice.

SteelerKing
12-23-2014, 02:25 AM
That's a subjective take. Objectively, mj was better at getting the ball into the basket.

You can't say some one else can't interpret that as better shooting

This.

And I get what a couple of you guys are saying about Kobe having more range given the huge disparity in their career three pointers (1680 3Ps for Kobe, 581 for Jordan) but that just wasn't Jordan's game and I fail to see how it translates to Kobe being a better shot. Jordan was clearly capable of knocking it down from outside when he wanted to as evinced by his playoff record for three pointers in a half (6) and the fact that he shot almost 33% from outside (32.7 vs 33.3 for Kobe, which makes them virtually identical from that range). However, it also means that Jordan shot better everywhere else and therefore I'm going to stand by what I said about Jordan being the better shooter. He had one of the best mid-range jumpers in the league at the time (possibly all time) and his hanging fade away was a thing of beauty. That shot is one of many that everyone, including MJ, knows Kobe borrowed from him. Heck I can still picture that shot as can probably a lot of other people.

@ Sheesh: That depends my man. If we're talking about a Center who shoots 65% because most of his shots are dunks and layups, then you're absolutely right that shooting percentage doesn't equate to a better shooter. However, to say it as an absolute as though it never does is inaccurate at best. I've watched Jordan play and I've watched Kobe play and there isn't a doubt in my mind that Jordan was the better shot -- and his field goal percentage supports that conclusion even if you think there isn't any correlation between the two.

Jamiecballer
12-23-2014, 03:54 PM
This.

And I get what a couple of you guys are saying about Kobe having more range given the huge disparity in their career three pointers (1680 3Ps for Kobe, 581 for Jordan) but that just wasn't Jordan's game and I fail to see how it translates to Kobe being a better shot. Jordan was clearly capable of knocking it down from outside when he wanted to as evinced by his playoff record for three pointers in a half (6) and the fact that he shot almost 33% from outside (32.7 vs 33.3 for Kobe, which makes them virtually identical from that range). However, it also means that Jordan shot better everywhere else and therefore I'm going to stand by what I said about Jordan being the better shooter. He had one of the best mid-range jumpers in the league at the time (possibly all time) and his hanging fade away was a thing of beauty. That shot is one of many that everyone, including MJ, knows Kobe borrowed from him. Heck I can still picture that shot as can probably a lot of other people.

@ Sheesh: That depends my man. If we're talking about a Center who shoots 65% because most of his shots are dunks and layups, then you're absolutely right that shooting percentage doesn't equate to a better shooter. However, to say it as an absolute as though it never does is inaccurate at best. I've watched Jordan play and I've watched Kobe play and there isn't a doubt in my mind that Jordan was the better shot -- and his field goal percentage supports that conclusion even if you think there isn't any correlation between the two.
I 'm inclined to agree. I file Jordan's lack of 3's under the superior basketball IQ category. There is no reason to think he wouldn't have been better had he prioritized that part of his game.

SteelerKing
12-23-2014, 05:11 PM
I 'm inclined to agree. I file Jordan's lack of 3's under the superior basketball IQ category. There is no reason to think he wouldn't have been better had he prioritized that part of his game.

Yep. Here's an interesting article I found when digging around last night that deals with exactly that: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/562044-closing-the-case-why-michael-jordan-was-a-better-shooter-than-kobe-bryant

Jamiecballer
12-23-2014, 05:41 PM
Ya there really is no question Jordan was the better shooter of the 2.

tredigs
12-23-2014, 06:01 PM
Yeah, MJ's highest volume years from three (the only times he averaged 3+ a night), he shot it extremely well. >37%. One year 43%.

Kobe's never reached 37%.

nickdymez
12-23-2014, 06:20 PM
You guys have no clue about basketball other than what your advanced stats tell you. Jordan was a SMARTER shooter than Kobe, but he shot far less threes than Kobe did. Whatever though. Jordan was definitely a better player than Kobe though.

Jamiecballer
12-23-2014, 06:28 PM
You guys have no clue about basketball other than what your advanced stats tell you. Jordan was a SMARTER shooter than Kobe, but he shot far less threes than Kobe did. Whatever though. Jordan was definitely a better player than Kobe though.
What does the number of 3's shot have to do with who was better?

Jamiecballer
12-23-2014, 06:29 PM
Long distance shooting is a rhythm and practice thing and when Jordan decided to do it he did it better than Kobe.

nickdymez
12-23-2014, 06:30 PM
What does the number of 3's shot have to do with who was better?

Because your basing it off numbers. Well if someone shoots more 3's than someone else, im sure they might have a lower percentage. There is no way you watched Jordan and Kobe play and think Jordan was a better shooter than Kobe. But then again, it doesn't matter around here. Logic s thrown out the window for hate.

Jamiecballer
12-23-2014, 06:39 PM
Because your basing it off numbers. Well if someone shoots more 3's than someone else, im sure they might have a lower percentage. There is no way you watched Jordan and Kobe play and think Jordan was a better shooter than Kobe. But then again, it doesn't matter around here. Logic s thrown out the window for hate.
That's interesting. So you think if you shot like 1 a game for most of your career, because it just wasn't a big part of the NBA game at that time that you'd practice it just as much and get the same "feel" for it?

SteelerKing
12-23-2014, 07:07 PM
Because your basing it off numbers. Well if someone shoots more 3's than someone else, im sure they might have a lower percentage. There is no way you watched Jordan and Kobe play and think Jordan was a better shooter than Kobe. But then again, it doesn't matter around here. Logic s thrown out the window for hate.

There's no hate involved here and the only one I've seen throw logic out the window for hate is you. Hate came in the form of your comment about us having no clue about basketball and logic was thrown out the window, the yard, the neighborhood, and even the outer atmosphere when you claimed that shooting more threes is somehow a detriment or is in any way indicative of being a better shooter. There is absolutely zero correlation between total attempts and fluctuations in efficiency percentages beyond a statistically significant sample size whether it's an NFL quarterback, a major league baseball player, or a basketball player -- from anywhere on the court, free throw line and 3pt line included. If anything, as Jamiec pointed out, the guy who shoots it more is going to have the higher percentage. Practice + experience = proficiency.

Back when I played, and starred, in basketball (I was the team's leading scorer by a huge margin and 2nd in the whole league) I only got better the more often I shot it and my free throw percentages etc stayed pretty consistent whether I was taking 10 free throws a game or 3. So, right back at you: you clearly know nothing about the game of basketball, have never played, and have never watched both Jordan and Kobe in their prime. And I like Kobe, quite a bit, but Jordan was the better shooter and there's really not much of a debate if you actually know what you're talking about.

MassoDio
12-23-2014, 07:14 PM
Because your basing it off numbers. Well if someone shoots more 3's than someone else, im sure they might have a lower percentage. There is no way you watched Jordan and Kobe play and think Jordan was a better shooter than Kobe. But then again, it doesn't matter around here. Logic s thrown out the window for hate.

I watched the entirety of both of their careers. Jordan was a better shooter. Kobe was a better shooter earlier in his career than Jordan was. Jordan became a deadly shooter.

Part of being a "better shooter" is having a better shot selection, and shooting shots you have a better chance of making. You said Jordan was a SMARTER shooter, which to me, is part of being a better shooter.

The point the others are making about the amount of 3's taken, is that when Jordan increased the amount of 3's he took, he actually shot a better percentage on them. (Hence the rhythm comment made by someone.)

Kobe is not a better shooter than Jordan was. You are just blinded by the volume of long range shots, and think that means he was a better shooter. Prettier does not equate to better. More made shots is much closer to meaning better shooter than mechanics is. Bottom line, the more you put it in the basket, the better you are. (And I am not talking about dunks.)

kozelkid
12-23-2014, 08:58 PM
Being rough with players and actually not allowing them to score are two different things. The era Kobe has played in his entire career has had the lowest defensive rating per/100 in league history. Especially from 2000 to 2005.
Jordan never had to face zone defenses where they would essentially put a guard in front of him and a big man standing between them and the rim. They would have attempted to keep him out of the paint settling for jump shots a lot more than he had to just by beating his man one on one. Defenses are more intricate than ever, and them not allowing as many points scored per 100 possessions than any other era proves that.
Not true. Just because zone was "illegal," doesn't mean he didn't face plenty of it. Ever heard of "Jordan rules?" Jordan faced plenty of zone, double teams and even triple teams. Refs just didn't enforce it much, much like traveling or flopping in today's NBA.

Just search "Jordan zone defense" on YouTube. You'll find plenty of evidence contradicting your point, enforced by Riley's Knicks and the Bad Boy Pistons.

andy2518
12-23-2014, 09:01 PM
I watched the entirety of both of their careers. Jordan was a better shooter. Kobe was a better shooter earlier in his career than Jordan was. Jordan became a deadly shooter.

Part of being a "better shooter" is having a better shot selection, and shooting shots you have a better chance of making. You said Jordan was a SMARTER shooter, which to me, is part of being a better shooter.

The point the others are making about the amount of 3's taken, is that when Jordan increased the amount of 3's he took, he actually shot a better percentage on them. (Hence the rhythm comment made by someone.)

Kobe is not a better shooter than Jordan was. You are just blinded by the volume of long range shots, and think that means he was a better shooter. Prettier does not equate to better. More made shots is much closer to meaning better shooter than mechanics is. Bottom line, the more you put it in the basket, the better you are. (And I am not talking about dunks.)

Anyone who watched them both play would never agree that Jordan was a better pure shooter than Kobe.

andy2518
12-23-2014, 09:07 PM
Not true. Just because zone was "illegal," doesn't mean he didn't face plenty of it. Ever heard of "Jordan rules." Jordan faced plenty of zone, double teams and even triple teams. Refs just didn't enforce it much, much like traveling or flopping in today's NBA.

Just search "Jordan zone defense" on YouTube. You'll find plenty of evidence contradicting your point, enforced by Riley's Knicks and the Bad Boy Pistons.

Facing the occasional zone is not nearly the same thing as facing teams who practice box zones day in and day out in practice and use them day in and day out in nearly every single game they play. Not trying to argue Kobe being better than Jordan in any way because there is overwhelming evidence proving the contrary, just saying that even if you factor in zone defense it still doesn't bring Kobe even remotely close. Though it is something that should be taken into account and the gap isn't as far apart as the haters like to pretend it is. I actually heard Bruce Blitz use this comparison the other day and he is as big a Jordan fan as it gets. Not to mention he has watched most of the games both have played in. If Jordan was a $100 bill, Kobe would be $90. A lot of people try to make Kobe a $50 or a $60. Simply not true.

kozelkid
12-23-2014, 09:10 PM
Facing the occasional zone is not nearly the same thing as facing teams who practice box zones day in and day out in practice and use them day in and day out in nearly every single game they play. Not trying to argue Kobe being better than Jordan in any way because there is overwhelming evidence proving the contrary, just saying that even if you factor in zone defense it still doesn't bring Kobe even remotely close. Though it is something that should be taken into account and the gap isn't as far apart as the haters like to pretend it is. I actually heard Bruce Blitz use this comparison the other day and he is as big a Jordan fan as it gets. Not to mention he has watched most of the games both have played in. If Jordan was a $100 bill, Kobe would be $90. A lot of people try to make Kobe a $50 or a $60. Simply not true.

I don't care about Reggie Miller's quote. The number is subjective, arbitrary, and frankly, irrelevant. I'm just pointing out the incorrect notion that MJ didn't face plenty zone defense because it was "illegal" at the time.

andy2518
12-23-2014, 09:12 PM
That's a subjective take. Objectively, mj was better at getting the ball into the basket.

You can't say some one else can't interpret that as better shooting

So can I then interpret Shaq to be the greatest shooter of all time. He was better than anyone else during his prime at getting the ball into the basket.

andy2518
12-23-2014, 09:14 PM
I don't care about Reggie Miller's quote. The number is subjective, arbitrary, and frankly, irrelevant. I'm just pointing out the incorrect notion that MJ didn't face plenty zone defense because it was "illegal" at the time.

It would be a fair assessment to say that MJ faced the occasional zone that was not practiced for day in and day out the way it is in today's NBA.

sheesh
12-23-2014, 09:18 PM
Tredigs and SteelCity you guys brought up points that I seriously have never considered or thought about. I took it for granted in my mind that Jordan was at best on par with Kobe as a pure shooter.

Jordan in his 20s was simply so good at slashing and played during a time in the league where the 3 wasn't in vogue. It makes sense that he wouldn't focus on his deep range if it wasn't part of his game.

Jamiecballer
12-23-2014, 09:52 PM
Anyone who watched them both play would never agree that Jordan was a better pure shooter than Kobe.

sure they would. on what basis would you say otherwise?

Jamiecballer
12-23-2014, 09:55 PM
Anyone who watched them both play would never agree that Jordan was a better pure shooter than Kobe.
you're just penalizing MJ for the fact that he was just as good, if not better, at getting to the basket.

ChicagoFan4Eva
12-23-2014, 11:17 PM
Pippen

SteelerKing
12-24-2014, 12:31 AM
sure they would. on what basis would you say otherwise?

People who are saying Kobe is a better shooter don't have one. So far we've seen:

1) because he jacks up more three pointers at a nearly identical shooting percentage from that range while having a much lower overall shooting percentage (aka "because I have a distorted view of reality")

and

2) ..."because I have a distorted view of reality".

There's no legitimate argument for Kobe being a better shooter than MJ which is why we have yet to see one and hopefully we've already shot the couple of weak and irrational reasons down with stats and facts.

I hope that Kobe apologists and ball washers alike can just accept the fact that he and MJ are both all time greats but that Jordan is the GOAT and is (factually) a better shooter. The stats don't always tell the full story but they never lie either and neither do my eyes. The fact that people are even attempting to argue it when Kobe is shooting 37% right now is almost laughable.

Chronz
12-24-2014, 12:39 AM
So can I then interpret Shaq to be the greatest shooter of all time. He was better than anyone else during his prime at getting the ball into the basket.

Feel free to make your own interpretation, thats the beauty of something so subjective. Im sure the other guy is talking mostly about jumpshots outside the paint, and how range doesn't trump consistency/efficiency.

asandhu23
12-24-2014, 01:50 AM
better athleticism, offense and defense ability and awareness, ability to take over a game.

Kobe succeeded in an era where defenders are essentially not allowed to play tough D on the league's cash machines.

basketfan4life
12-24-2014, 03:28 AM
**** Kobe.

He is not better at anything than MJ, LBJ, TMac. His all time rankings are so high because of his longevity. He won 5 rings because of Shaq and Gasol. Any decent wing would have won with these players.

Now move on.

LakersEaglesLA
12-24-2014, 05:09 AM
So what you Laker and Kobe Haters think Jordan is better here we go again... Well Magic was better than Jordan now what!! Deal with that

kozelkid
12-24-2014, 05:15 AM
So what you Laker and Kobe Haters think Jordan is better here we go again... Well Magic was better than Jordan now what!! Deal with that
Based on what again...?

MassoDio
12-24-2014, 01:28 PM
Anyone who watched them both play would never agree that Jordan was a better pure shooter than Kobe.

Obviously, you are wrong. I just said I watched the entirety of both of their careers. Jordan was the better shooter. "Pure shooter" is a ridiculous term. When Jordan shot the ball, it went in more often. In my opinion, that makes him a better shooter.

Again, I am not talking about dunks, so your farce of an argument about Shaq holds no place here. You are just grasping at straws because you don't have an argument that defines "pure shooter" in a way that supports the theory that Kobe was a better shooter.

Jamiecballer
12-24-2014, 01:42 PM
Pure shooter is really just a term created to describe someone who shoots well and provides little value otherwise.

Being a better shooter is something no Kobe fan will ever admit to because its the only aspect you might argue he met Jordan's standard so they have a vested interest in that opinion.

KnicksFan4Years
12-24-2014, 01:51 PM
I never understood what people meant by "much better" or "ten times better." I get that they don't truly mean that but one great to another great, how can you be that much better? Surely, everyone has a limit and I just don't think Jordan was MUCH better than Kobe. Better? Yes. But I don't see much better.

Jordan was better than Kobe. Did more in fewer seasons. Did more when you consider his college career. Did more when you consider that they changed the rules to make it easier for offensive players, etc.

Jordan was just better.

KnicksFan4Years
12-24-2014, 01:53 PM
So what you Laker and Kobe Haters think Jordan is better here we go again... Well Magic was better than Jordan now what!! Deal with that

Magic may have been better than Jordan, but unfortunately we never got to see that as Magic's career was cut short.

Wilt was better than all of them.

Jeffy25
12-24-2014, 04:25 PM
So what you Laker and Kobe Haters think Jordan is better here we go again... Well Magic was better than Jordan now what!! Deal with that

No he wasn't

30.1 PPG, 6.2 TRB, 5.3 APG, 2.3 SPG, 0.8 BPG, .497 FG%, 27.9 PER, 214.0 WS, .250 WS/48 in 41,000 MP

vs

19.5 PPG, 7.2 TRB, 11.2 APG, 1.9 SPG, 0.4 BPG, .520 FG%, 24.1 PER, 155.8 WS, .225 WS/48 in 33,000 MP

And it's obvious who was better in the post-season too.

Jamiecballer
12-24-2014, 04:27 PM
Well when you see those numbers it actually doesn't seem that obvious. Damn Magic put up some fine numbers.

Jeffy25
12-24-2014, 04:34 PM
When you watch Jordan all you see is highlights, if you didn't see him play a full game then you don't know what your talking about. Jordan obviously didn't create the game of basketball and "His moves" he took from other players he watched growing up, or played against. Kobe and all other basketball players are just borrowing those same moves and perfecting them. Stats are great and all but they didn't play against the same players, they didn't play even with the same rules, zone Defenses weren't allowed back then, that was illegal D if you tried that. Didn't have a Defensive 3 in the key. Best way to tell whose better is to watch them play a game, watching highlights , using your eyes. Because if you do then you'll plainly see that Jordan was the most athletic player in his time and that gave him a huge advantage. When Iverson came into the NBA Jordan could barely hang with guarding him, Kobe shut him down for a whole Game. Kobe's Handles are way better than Jordan's when both players where at there primes. Kobe has suffered way more injuries than Jordan had which is why he is playing the way he is playing at 36.
Jordan is 1 of the GOAT but so is Kobe, Magic, and so on. My eyeballs show me that Kobe is better than Jordan, when i look at the highlights I'm more impressed with Kobe's moves than Jordan's Athleticism.

So your solution is to use subjective and flawed memories that have inherent biases in them?

Great solution.

You can't tell who is better all-time by your memory from watching them play.

What counts is what they accomplished, and I doubt you watched all 70,000 regular season minutes that Kobe and Jordan each played, recorded them in your mind with perfect recall, and carried no bias toward either player (not like you are a Lakers fan or anything, right?)


There is a reason Jordan crushes Kobe statistically, and why anyone who isn't a Lakers fan will tell you how much better Jordan was than Kobe, and most Lakers fans will agree.


Also, I re-watched the highlights of Bulls and Sixers games of Iverson and Jordan in the same game, they never even guarded each other. Harper and Kerr were on Iverson, and Stackhouse was on Jordan. Both did their scoring while the other was on the other side of the court on defense.


I think you have a false memory/perception.

Rivera
12-24-2014, 04:34 PM
Why do I feel like JordansBulls (JB) made this thread? Maybe because I remember him asking where to buy old nba finals DVD lol

LakersEaglesLA
12-24-2014, 05:33 PM
In a 4 year span Magic Won high school championship mvp, college championship mvp, and nba championship also mvp.. No one compares I'm tired of this Jordan myth like he never missed a shot or was out played. Im 41yrs old I seen Magic dominate the league in the 80s when there were actual Great Teams.. 9 championship appearances in his 12 year career. Jordan didnt do sh## from 1984-1990.. He beat the Lakers in 91 after Magic contracted hiv.. not one team the Jordan and the Bulls beat in the 90s were Great. None would have got past the second round in the 80s which was the greatest and highest level of teams in nba history.. Magic affected the Game greater than any other player so stop proclaiming Jordan as God of Basketball because he Is NOT!

Jeffy25
12-24-2014, 06:08 PM
In a 4 year span Magic Won high school championship mvp, college championship mvp, and nba championship also mvp.. No one compares I'm tired of this Jordan myth like he never missed a shot or was out played. Im 41yrs old I seen Magic dominate the league in the 80s when there were actual Great Teams.. 9 championship appearances in his 12 year career. Jordan didnt do sh## from 1984-1990.. He beat the Lakers in 91 after Magic contracted hiv.. not one team the Jordan and the Bulls beat in the 90s were Great. None would have got past the second round in the 80s which was the greatest and highest level of teams in nba history.. Magic affected the Game greater than any other player so stop proclaiming Jordan as God of Basketball because he Is NOT!

Maybe Jordan should have played with Worthy and Kareem then.

mngopher35
12-24-2014, 06:37 PM
In a 4 year span Magic Won high school championship mvp, college championship mvp, and nba championship also mvp.. No one compares I'm tired of this Jordan myth like he never missed a shot or was out played. Im 41yrs old I seen Magic dominate the league in the 80s when there were actual Great Teams.. 9 championship appearances in his 12 year career. Jordan didnt do sh## from 1984-1990.. He beat the Lakers in 91 after Magic contracted hiv.. not one team the Jordan and the Bulls beat in the 90s were Great. None would have got past the second round in the 80s which was the greatest and highest level of teams in nba history.. Magic affected the Game greater than any other player so stop proclaiming Jordan as God of Basketball because he Is NOT!


Saying that teams Jordan faced wouldn't make the 2nd round in the 80's shows your clear bias here. The west actually wasn't very strong throughout the 80's. Are you telling me the 1984 Mavs (2nd round) and Suns (3rd round) are better than any team throughout the 1990's Jordan beat? There are more examples but that was the first year I thought of and those suns were 41-41 after checking. Jordan didn't start out his career next to Kareem, Nixon, Wilkes, Cooper soon followed by worthy etc. Once Jordan had similar talent around him though he started not only making the finals every year but winning them as well.

Jordan was a much better scorer and defender than magic while magic was the much better facilitator. When talking accolades we have: 6 finals mvps to 3, 5 mvp's to 3, 1 dpoy to 0. When we look at the stats Jordan also has the advantage, playoffs even more so probably. I am all for someone bringing a logical debate on any topic but to throw out Jordan as some myth you better have something more than false statements like the bold. Sure his greatness can be exaggerated by some, but plenty of logical people also see him as the GOAT.

You have proven your laker bias on here so don't just get mad and spew nonsense when other people disagree. I saw you post earlier in a thread that Kobe is still a top 10 player and anyone who disagreed was stupid bias or dumb. Cmon man you gotta at least bring something to the table if you want anyone to take what your saying seriously when it comes to the Lakers. Don't let your bias keep getting in the way of facts, if you truly believe something present an actual argument to backup your opinions and it could at least be respectable then.

AIRMAR72
12-24-2014, 08:39 PM
When you watch Jordan all you see is highlights, if you didn't see him play a full game then you don't know what your talking about. Jordan obviously didn't create the game of basketball and "His moves" he took from other players he watched growing up, or played against. Kobe and all other basketball players are just borrowing those same moves and perfecting them. Stats are great and all but they didn't play against the same players, they didn't play even with the same rules, zone Defenses weren't allowed back then, that was illegal D if you tried that. Didn't have a Defensive 3 in the key. Best way to tell whose better is to watch them play a game, watching highlights , using your eyes. Because if you do then you'll plainly see that Jordan was the most athletic player in his time and that gave him a huge advantage. When Iverson came into the NBA Jordan could barely hang with guarding him, Kobe shut him down for a whole Game. Kobe's Handles are way better than Jordan's when both players where at there primes. Kobe has suffered way more injuries than Jordan had which is why he is playing the way he is playing at 36.
Jordan is 1 of the GOAT but so is Kobe, Magic, and so on. My eyeballs show me that Kobe is better than Jordan, when i look at the highlights I'm more impressed with Kobe's moves than Jordan's Athleticism.
Your lying or in denial claiming you saw MJ played and kobe(FINISH) is better at blah blah blah is nonsense now pay attention this WATERED down version wannabe be.poorman Michael Jordan should NEVER be compared to Michael Jeffrey Jordan that's disrespecting MJ. kobe is not cut from the same cloth Jordan WILL power is on unmatch by any player from any era and to be honest Kobe Bryant personality was formed after reading the book Jordan. Rules all that hog wash BS that he wants to win is FAKE you can't even compare Kobe Bryant to Scott pippen or LeBron James Kobe Bryant is FINISH at kobe age Jordan was still a FORCE in the league

AIRMAR72
12-24-2014, 08:44 PM
In a 4 year span Magic Won high school championship mvp, college championship mvp, and nba championship also mvp.. No one compares I'm tired of this Jordan myth like he never missed a shot or was out played. Im 41yrs old I seen Magic dominate the league in the 80s when there were actual Great Teams.. 9 championship appearances in his 12 year career. Jordan didnt do sh## from 1984-1990.. He beat the Lakers in 91 after Magic contracted hiv.. not one team the Jordan and the Bulls beat in the 90s were Great. None would have got past the second round in the 80s which was the greatest and highest level of teams in nba history.. Magic affected the Game greater than any other player so stop proclaiming Jordan as God of Basketball because he Is NOT!
It's not your fault THAT you didn't get to see Michael Jordan play NBA

LakersEaglesLA
12-24-2014, 08:44 PM
Saying that teams Jordan faced wouldn't make the 2nd round in the 80's shows your clear bias here. The west actually wasn't very strong throughout the 80's. Are you telling me the 1984 Mavs (2nd round) and Suns (3rd round) are better than any team throughout the 1990's Jordan beat? There are more examples but that was the first year I thought of and those suns were 41-41 after checking. Jordan didn't start out his career next to Kareem, Nixon, Wilkes, Cooper soon followed by worthy etc. Once Jordan had similar talent around him though he started not only making the finals every year but winning them as well.

Jordan was a much better scorer and defender than magic while magic was the much better facilitator. When talking accolades we have: 6 finals mvps to 3, 5 mvp's to 3, 1 dpoy to 0. When we look at the stats Jordan also has the advantage, playoffs even more so probably. I am all for someone bringing a logical debate on any topic but to throw out Jordan as some myth you better have something more than false statements like the bold. Sure his greatness can be exaggerated by some, but plenty of logical people also see him as the GOAT.

You have proven your laker bias on here so don't just get mad and spew nonsense when other people disagree. I saw you post earlier in a thread that Kobe is still a top 10 player and anyone who disagreed was stupid bias or dumb. Cmon man you gotta at least bring something to the table if you want anyone to take what your saying seriously when it comes to the Lakers. Don't let your bias keep getting in the way of facts, if you truly believe something present an actual argument to backup your opinions and it could at least be respectable then.

I assumed you would talk abt Magics teammates that were soo great they didn't win a championship until a rookie from Michigan State led them to one

LakersEaglesLA
12-24-2014, 08:51 PM
It's not your fault THAT you didn't get to see Michael Jordan play NBA

Smh I said Im 41obviously I seen Jordan play and he wasn't Magic, neither was Kobe

SteelerKing
12-24-2014, 09:02 PM
Smh I said Im 41obviously I seen Jordan play and he wasn't Magic, neither was Kobe

Jordan and Magic were two completely different players and given that you're obviously a Lakers fan (and homer) I'm not surprised to see you think that both Kobe and Magic are better. However, let it be known that you are in the vast minority and that over 95% of everyone who ever lived on this planet including your fellow Lakers fans considers Jordan the GOAT. Continuing to tout your age (41) is therefore irrelevant.

Magic is right up there, though. Even though less than 5% of the entire world's population agrees with you that he is better than MJ, he is certainly deserving of being in the discussion. Don't let overwhelming opinion and facts get in the way though. Cheers.

LakersEaglesLA
12-24-2014, 09:06 PM
Age is relevant, it contributes to wisdom. Watching actual games is TOTALLY different than Judging by highlights

SteelerKing
12-24-2014, 09:09 PM
Agreed. I'm four years younger than you, played and starred in basketball, and watched both of them play. That's why I know, along with 95% of the world's population, that Jordan is better. Even Magic knows Jordan is better and he discussed it in multiple interviews that I'm confident you watched. Happy holidays.

Jamiecballer
12-24-2014, 09:24 PM
Age is relevant, it contributes to wisdom. Watching actual games is TOTALLY different than Judging by highlights
Riggggght... And I don't suppose you watched with an impartial eye now did you, LAKERS eagles LA

LakersEaglesLA
12-24-2014, 09:36 PM
The hate and jealousy other teams have toward the Lakers success is legendary, and some of you have the nerve to bring up bias. Wow that's a good one

LakersEaglesLA
12-24-2014, 09:46 PM
Agreed. I'm four years younger than you, played and starred in basketball, and watched both of them play. That's why I know, along with 95% of the world's population, that Jordan is better. Even Magic knows Jordan is better and he discussed it in multiple interviews that I'm confident you watched. Happy holidays.
I played in every all-star game in California in 1992 and played at Ventura College top basketball jc in America 93-97 so I know abt and have played in trenches.. Magic would be my 1st pick if I were starting a team

SteelerKing
12-24-2014, 10:39 PM
I played in every all-star game in California in 1992 and played at Ventura College top basketball jc in America 93-97 so I know abt and have played in trenches.. Magic would be my 1st pick if I were starting a team

And that's fair my man. Magic is easily top 5 to ever play the game of basketball and is top 3 for most but both myself, and Magic Johnson, rank Jordan slightly ahead of him. It's not a knock on Magic so please don't take it that way.

For a fun story, back in the 80s I was visiting some family from LA when the Lakers won a back to back title and bought one of their back to back t-shirts. The point behind that is that I'm a big Magic fan and like the Lakers too so when I say Jordan is better than Magic or Kobe, it's not because of hate. I love both of those guys and what they brought to the game of basketball but Jordan really is the GOAT if you want to truly love your sport and even respect Magic, because he agrees. It's not a bad thing.

Bartlee23
12-24-2014, 10:41 PM
Smh I said Im 41obviously I seen Jordan play and he wasn't Magic, neither was Kobe

You say you are 41 which means you were born in 1973. Magic's first year in the league was 1979 making it impossible for you to have any formed opinion since you were 6 years old and didn't even know what a basketball was.

The years Magic played you were between the ages of roughly 6-18. I don't know many kids who could form a logical opinion about a player when they are 12 years old and the years that you were 17-18 Magic was not the player he was so when you say you "saw" Magic play that's great. From 6-16 I seriously doubt you saw all 82 games each season and even if you did you couldn't have understood them.

If you don't like Jordan that's fine and your opinion but don't try and claim something that is just not possible.

mngopher35
12-24-2014, 10:59 PM
I assumed you would talk abt Magics teammates that were soo great they didn't win a championship until a rookie from Michigan State led them to one

I assumed you would make a one sentence response while ignoring everything else and not defending your previous statements...

The reason I mentioned the players that Magic started with as a rookie is because you had brought up how long it took Jordan's team to become competitive. That team he joined had Kareem who had already won a finals mvp and 5 mvps (winning his 6th that season). Also Wilkes won a title his rookie year when he was rookie of the year and had been on an all star team as well.

Compare those players to Orlando Woolridge, Quintin Dailey, and Steve Johnson. Of course it took the Bulls longer to compete, they didn't have nearly as strong of a supporting cast to start. Once he did get that type of talent around him he went on winning 6 titles and finals mvps.


The hate and jealousy other teams have toward the Lakers success is legendary, and some of you have the nerve to bring up bias. Wow that's a good one

Yes, because with your recent posts it is quite obvious you are a laker homer. You haven't defended any of the ridiculous claims you made in the past and also in one of them said if anyone disagrees they are dumb stupid etc. In reality most people do disagree and they watched many of the same things you did just without the personal bias you insert. After a post pointing multiple of these factors out already you simply responded by acknowledging one small piece of evidence (which itself was just a rebuttal to a factor you left out) and ignoring all other points.

Not only this but it was an extremely weak attempt since 1. Kareem had already been finals and league MVP and 2. That team was obviously more talented than the Bulls minus Jordan his rookie year. Yes Magic was a great player and he was huge in the Lakers titles, but it does take a team to win and his was very good right away unlike the Bulls. Jordan's was great when he got pippen and grant and then they started winning. It was only brought up because you conveniently ignored this factor with your initial post.

SteelerKing
12-24-2014, 10:59 PM
By the way, LakersEagles, since it's almost Christmas and I'm feeling a bit nostalgic what did your stat line look like back in those days? I used to write my stats down after every game and while I don't have that info any longer, I was my own team's leading scorer by a huge margin and second in the league (although I dispute that, because I played against the #1 scorer and out shot him, lol). I was a 6'0" SF (yes, SF, a lot of our league guys were small) and averaged something along the lines of 25 PPG, 10 rebounds, 2 assists (I was selfish but my team sucked, lmao), 2 steals, and 1 block. Like you, I made league all stars every season but was just too short for my game to translate to the college level.

Jeffy25
12-24-2014, 11:19 PM
Smh I said Im 41obviously I seen Jordan play and he wasn't Magic, neither was Kobe

Neither played like Magic.

LeBron plays like Magic, and is better at it then Magic was.


If I had to start a franchise with any of these four today their rookie year forward, I would take Jordan, than LeBron, than magic, than Kobe.

Jeffy25
12-24-2014, 11:21 PM
Age is relevant, it contributes to wisdom. Watching actual games is TOTALLY different than Judging by highlights

If age relates to wisdom.

It also relates to stubbornness.



I'm in my 30's, so is Hawkeye. We both saw Magic and Jordan's careers. We both know that Jordan was better. Everyone that isn't a Lakers fan that saw both careers is going to agree.

sheesh
12-24-2014, 11:53 PM
If age relates to wisdom.

It also relates to stubbornness.



I'm in my 30's, so is Hawkeye. We both saw Magic and Jordan's careers. We both know that Jordan was better. Everyone that isn't a Lakers fan that saw both careers is going to agree.

Pretty much. I know the Jordan praise is so lavish that it sounds like hyperbole. But he really was that good. He came, he conquered, he dominated and won it all.

Jamiecballer
12-24-2014, 11:56 PM
The hate and jealousy other teams have toward the Lakers success is legendary, and some of you have the nerve to bring up bias. Wow that's a good one
Yep I spend all my free time getting worked up over a sports organization that I have zero attachment to. Heck I called in sick last week I was so upset over it.

LakersEaglesLA
12-25-2014, 12:19 AM
You say you are 41 which means you were born in 1973. Magic's first year in the league was 1979 making it impossible for you to have any formed opinion since you were 6 years old and didn't even know what a basketball was.

The years Magic played you were between the ages of roughly 6-18. I don't know many kids who could form a logical opinion about a player when they are 12 years old and the years that you were 17-18 Magic was not the player he was so when you say you "saw" Magic play that's great. From 6-16 I seriously doubt you saw all 82 games each season and even if you did you couldn't have understood them.

If you don't like Jordan that's fine and your opinion but don't try and claim something that is just not possible.

It's pretty funny that you're arrogant enough to think that you know what i was doin at age 7, both my uncle's were basketball players I knew the game, watched the games, played the game and knew almost every player in the league at that age I was a basketball junkie.. I was not playing board games I was watching basketball..

Jeffy25
12-25-2014, 12:27 AM
It's pretty funny that you're arrogant enough to think that you know what i was doin at age 7, both my uncle's were basketball players I knew the game, watched the games, played the game and knew almost every player in the league at that age I was a basketball junkie.. I was not playing board games I was watching basketball..

1. You didn't have an adult education on the game when you were 7.

I would hope, over the last 34 years you have learned something new about the game since.

2. It's still your bias

3. You are riding this based on your eyes, and have provided absolutely no facts to support your assertions.


It's like the people that argued the earth was flat. You have no evidence, so either find evidence or move on.

LakersEaglesLA
12-25-2014, 12:30 AM
I assumed you would make a one sentence response while ignoring everything else and not defending your previous statements...

The reason I mentioned the players that Magic started with as a rookie is because you had brought up how long it took Jordan's team to become competitive. That team he joined had Kareem who had already won a finals mvp and 5 mvps (winning his 6th that season). Also Wilkes won a title his rookie year when he was rookie of the year and had been on an all star team as well.

Compare those players to Orlando Woolridge, Quintin Dailey, and Steve Johnson. Of course it took the Bulls longer to compete, they didn't have nearly as strong of a supporting cast to start. Once he did get that type of talent around him he went on winning 6 titles and finals mvps.



Yes, because with your recent posts it is quite obvious you are a laker homer. You haven't defended any of the ridiculous claims you made in the past and also in one of them said if anyone disagrees they are dumb stupid etc. In reality most people do disagree and they watched many of the same things you did just without the personal bias you insert. After a post pointing multiple of these factors out already you simply responded by acknowledging one small piece of evidence (which itself was just a rebuttal to a factor you left out) and ignoring all other points.

Not only this but it was an extremely weak attempt since 1. Kareem had already been finals and league MVP and 2. That team was obviously more talented than the Bulls minus Jordan his rookie year. Yes Magic was a great player and he was huge in the Lakers titles, but it does take a team to win and his was very good right away unlike the Bulls. Jordan's was great when he got pippen and grant and then they started winning. It was only brought up because you conveniently ignored this factor with your initial post.

I already gave you facts.. Magic won the highest championship at 3 different levels in 4 years, that's 12 different starters on the floor with him.. This proves it was more abt Magic than his teammates.. And I don't wanna hear abt Jordans teammates early on. You can't blame his teammates when he loses but give him ALL the credit when he wins.. Every time a Kobe championship is talked abt haters say Shaq and Pau, but when Jordans championships are talked abt No one mention Pippin Paxson Rodman or Grant the blatant double standard is biased and ridiculous..

LakersEaglesLA
12-25-2014, 12:34 AM
Nejither played like Magic.

LeBron plays like Magic, and is better at it then Magic was.


If I had to start a franchise with any of these four today their rookie year forward, I would take Jordan, than LeBron, than magic, than Kobe.

LeBron over Magic are you serious? This is the uninformed bs that's frustrating.. absolutely no clue..

Jeffy25
12-25-2014, 12:35 AM
I already gave you facts.. Magic won the highest championship at 3 different levels in 4 years, that's 12 different starters on the floor with him.. This proves it was more abt Magic than his teammates.. And I don't wanna hear abt Jordans teammates early on. You can't blame his teammates when he loses but give him ALL the credit when he wins.. Every time a Kobe championship is talked abt haters say Shaq and Pau, but when Jordans championships are talked abt No one mention Pippin Paxson Rodman or Grant the blatant double standard is biased and ridiculous..

Nobody gave Jordan all the credit, read his post.

After Jordan got help, he won.

Just like all the other all-time greats.

Magic is an all-time great too. Winning the NCAA chip or a high school chip, or winning with two other hall of famers in the NBA doesn't mean you are better than the best volume scorer of all time.

Jordan is the Goat because of a variety of reasons, but mainly because he was a crazy efficient volume shooter. We've never seen anyone else ever do that. Anyone that shoots as much as Jordan did misses a ton more shots than he does. And he was a very good defensive player, something Magic can't claim.

Different styles of play, but Jordan's style was more valuable.

Jeffy25
12-25-2014, 12:36 AM
LeBron over Magic are you serious? This is the uninformed bs that's frustrating.. absolutely no clue..

Prove it otherwise, since you insist it can't be true.

LeBron shoots a little more, but clearly has been more efficient and overall more effective. Especially defensively.

mngopher35
12-25-2014, 12:49 AM
I already gave you facts.. Magic won the highest championship at 3 different levels in 4 years, that's 12 different starters on the floor with him.. This proves it was more abt Magic than his teammates.. And I don't wanna hear abt Jordans teammates early on. You can't blame his teammates when he loses but give him ALL the credit when he wins.. Every time a Kobe championship is talked abt haters say Shaq and Pau, but when Jordans championships are talked abt No one mention Pippin Paxson Rodman or Grant the blatant double standard is biased and ridiculous..

Where in the world did I say it is on one player? I have been the one arguing that it takes a team to win and once Jordan got near that same level of support he produced championships. I also gave facts on their accolades and mentioned the stats which are easy to look up and support him as well. You however are ignoring that Magic's teammates were great yet want to punish Jordan for not having the same support right when he came in to the league. Kobe had great teammates as well but he deserves plenty of credit as well. He had great frontcourts and coaching just like Magic had loaded teams and Jordan had Pippen, Phil, great role players.

You are the one who said that tried to downplay the help magic had even though one of those guys had won a fmvp already and 5 mvps (ignoring the Bulls roster when Jordan came in). You are the one who claimed no team the bulls beat could make it out of the 2nd round in the 80's. You are the one who previously claimed Kobe is top 10 player this year and anyone who agrees is stupid or dumb. All of this while trying to avoid actually having a discussion on the issues you yourself bring up. It shows that you will spew any nonsense in order to push your laker bias how you wish. It is fine to have opinions but at least back up these statements with something instead of putting words into other peoples mouth to avoid it.

Chronz
12-25-2014, 01:02 AM
Remember when Magic refused to enter the NBA if Chicago won the lottery over LA

Bartlee23
12-25-2014, 01:31 AM
It's pretty funny that you're arrogant enough to think that you know what i was doin at age 7, both my uncle's were basketball players I knew the game, watched the games, played the game and knew almost every player in the league at that age I was a basketball junkie.. I was not playing board games I was watching basketball..

I wasn't trying to be " arrogant " or a jerk. You were 7 years old and it was not possible to comprehend the game. I don't care if you were a " basketball junkie " you were a little kid. You wouldn't of had the attention span to sit throughout 82 games, most would have been past your bedtime and I don't care about your uncles (who are they ? ) or what you did in high school all-star games.

In the basketball world you were a nobody like millions of other people. I believe you followed the game and played the game but again you didn't have the mental capacity to understand the game during a majority of Magic's career so when you say you " saw him play " it really doesn't mean much because you were just too young.

If you would take Magic first, great he's a great player and a great pick. You have every right to pick who you think is the best. I'm a Jordan guy. I'm older than you and actually did witness both of them play. I saw Magic play in college but Jordan is hands down the greatest basketball/competitor player I have ever seen.

Happy holidays

Jeffy25
12-25-2014, 01:38 AM
Remember when Magic refused to enter the NBA if Chicago won the lottery over LA

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-06-05/sports/sp-83_1_lakers

Every star joins great team mates if they can. Every one of them.

LakersEaglesLA
12-25-2014, 02:45 AM
I wasn't trying to be " arrogant " or a jerk. You were 7 years old and it was not possible to comprehend the game. I don't care if you were a " basketball junkie " you were a little kid. You wouldn't of had the attention span to sit throughout 82 games, most would have been past your bedtime and I don't care about your uncles (who are they ? ) or what you did in high school all-star games.

In the basketball world you were a nobody like millions of other people. I believe you followed the game and played the game but again you didn't have the mental capacity to understand the game during a majority of Magic's career so when you say you " saw him play " it really doesn't mean much because you were just too young.

If you would take Magic first, great he's a great player and a great pick. You have every right to pick who you think is the best. I'm a Jordan guy. I'm older than you and actually did witness both of them play. I saw Magic play in college but Jordan is hands down the greatest basketball/competitor player I have ever seen.

Happy holidays

It's not Rocket science it's basketball, yes I had the mental capacity at 7 to understand the game.... I disagree with you I would take Magic over any other player, his affect and competitive instinct on the game was unmatched. But to each his own

cahawk
12-25-2014, 03:21 AM
Magic is my favorite player, ever.
Top Lakers: Magic, Wilt, Jabbar may also be the best ever in NBA other than MJ spoiling their party.

Hawkeye15
12-25-2014, 03:37 AM
If age relates to wisdom.

It also relates to stubbornness.



I'm in my 30's, so is Hawkeye. We both saw Magic and Jordan's careers. We both know that Jordan was better. Everyone that isn't a Lakers fan that saw both careers is going to agree.

I am 40 in 9 months.......ugh

Tg11
12-25-2014, 02:21 PM
MJ's athleticism and IQ sets him apart by a mile.

I know right, Kobe doesn't even come close

quade36
12-25-2014, 04:27 PM
I already gave you facts.. Magic won the highest championship at 3 different levels in 4 years, that's 12 different starters on the floor with him.. This proves it was more abt Magic than his teammates.. And I don't wanna hear abt Jordans teammates early on. You can't blame his teammates when he loses but give him ALL the credit when he wins.. Every time a Kobe championship is talked abt haters say Shaq and Pau, but when Jordans championships are talked abt No one mention Pippin Paxson Rodman or Grant the blatant double standard is biased and ridiculous..

I agree the Bulls don't win a single championship without Paxson..... He was way better than Worthy, Jabbar, Nixon, Wilkes, Kupchak, Cooper, Worthy, Scott, and AC Green. Good thing you put him in this list of few players that helped Jordan win the championship..... You know after reviewing the list of people Magic played with talent wise I'd put them ahead of Pax, I'd put all these players ahead of Grant too. But Magic did it all himself with no help.

Bartlee23
12-25-2014, 05:58 PM
It's not Rocket science it's basketball, yes I had the mental capacity at 7 to understand the game.... I disagree with you I would take Magic over any other player, his affect and competitive instinct on the game was unmatched. But to each his own

You're right it's not " rocket science " but again the game was far too advanced for you to understand, you may have seen Magic on TV at a young age but you didn't sit throughout an entire season, analyze every game played or even been able to form thoughts or logical thinking about what was going on.

The typical 7 year old is just learning a greater vocabulary, can tell time, dates, etc, learns social skills due to school and has an increase in some motor skills. You didn't become a " basketball guru" at 7, it just didn't happen.

I respect you selecting Magic for the player you would want for your team to start up but don't make yourself more than the person you are.

basketfan4life
12-26-2014, 05:48 AM
I don't get why a person who thinks Magic is better than mj gets ridiculed. I think Mj is better and the best player this game has ever seen. But it is OK if someone think otherwise.

This is the main problem with some guys here. If you have advanced numbers you are cool if you don't you are ridiculous. I believe in metrics but some guys here don't even know which metric tells what but yet still act like an expert. Everybody can look at snergy, post the numbers and act like geniuses.

I bet %75 of these guys didn't even take a lecture called "statistics and probability". This is science guys, it's a lot more than lookin some data on a web site.

Jeffy25
12-26-2014, 06:05 AM
I don't get why a person who thinks Magic is better than mj gets ridiculed. I think Mj is better and the best player this game has ever seen. But it is OK if someone think otherwise.



The issue isn't thinking Magic is better.

The issue is the way he presents that argument.

Hawkeye15
12-26-2014, 02:31 PM
I don't get why a person who thinks Magic is better than mj gets ridiculed. I think Mj is better and the best player this game has ever seen. But it is OK if someone think otherwise.

This is the main problem with some guys here. If you have advanced numbers you are cool if you don't you are ridiculous. I believe in metrics but some guys here don't even know which metric tells what but yet still act like an expert. Everybody can look at snergy, post the numbers and act like geniuses.

I bet %75 of these guys didn't even take a lecture called "statistics and probability". This is science guys, it's a lot more than lookin some data on a web site.

I watched them both play and can tell you MJ was the better player, by a decent margin. Exponentially a more disruptive, better defender, and simply the better player. Numbers for sure back that up.

sheesh
12-26-2014, 11:04 PM
I don't get why a person who thinks Magic is better than mj gets ridiculed. I think Mj is better and the best player this game has ever seen. But it is OK if someone think otherwise.

This is the main problem with some guys here. If you have advanced numbers you are cool if you don't you are ridiculous. I believe in metrics but some guys here don't even know which metric tells what but yet still act like an expert. Everybody can look at snergy, post the numbers and act like geniuses.

I bet %75 of these guys didn't even take a lecture called "statistics and probability". This is science guys, it's a lot more than lookin some data on a web site.

Because Magic isn't better than Jordan.

basketfan4life
12-29-2014, 02:59 AM
I watched them both play and can tell you MJ was the better player, by a decent margin. Exponentially a more disruptive, better defender, and simply the better player. Numbers for sure back that up.

I certainly weren't implying you man. I too think MJ is better.


Because Magic isn't better than Jordan.

Actually you need to get ridiculed.

Jeffy25
12-31-2014, 05:04 AM
'

slashsnake
12-31-2014, 07:34 PM
I already gave you facts.. Magic won the highest championship at 3 different levels in 4 years, that's 12 different starters on the floor with him.. This proves it was more abt Magic than his teammates.. And I don't wanna hear abt Jordans teammates early on. You can't blame his teammates when he loses but give him ALL the credit when he wins.. Every time a Kobe championship is talked abt haters say Shaq and Pau, but when Jordans championships are talked abt No one mention Pippin Paxson Rodman or Grant the blatant double standard is biased and ridiculous..

3 different levels? Are you talking about high-school here?

He won an NBA championship as a rookie with a team that was a 5th seed, won a playoff round, lost to the eventual NBA champs and had 2 HOF teammates (which is the fewest HOF teammates he ever won with) the year before. He won an NBA championship where his teammate was the finals MVP.

People mention Pau because he was a lot better than Horace Grant. He went to 4 times as many all star games. He was all NBA multiple times. He had career averages of 18-10 in LA. Has Grant had a single season where he played did that?

People mention Shaq because he won every single finals MVP between him and Kobe when they were together. He was the driving force behind that team. He's one of the greatest bigs to play the game. Pippen was great, but not nearly at that level.

It isn't "kobe haters". Nobody is saying Jordan didn't have some very good teammates. They are just saying they sure weren't on that level. I don't know how insecure you have to be about a guy, when you are starting to cry out that everybody brings up Shaq, but Jordan had Paxson and that's a double standard. No it isn't. Shaq brought two other teams to the finals. Paxson... well he was a sharpshooting 7 point a game backup point guard.

And Magic's... What was it? 4 or 5 HOF players he was with there? I LOVE Magic. That's who I tried to play like as a kid. Seriously. My favorite basketball players ever were Magic, Penny, Jalen Rose... But come on. No he isn't on Jordan's level, and you could build two HOF careers with what Jordan did that Kobe didn't do.

LakersEaglesLA
12-31-2014, 10:39 PM
I agree the Bulls don't win a single championship without Paxson..... He was way better than Worthy, Jabbar, Nixon, Wilkes, Kupchak, Cooper, Worthy, Scott, and AC Green. Good thing you put him in this list of few players that helped Jordan win the championship..... You know after reviewing the list of people Magic played with talent wise I'd put them ahead of Pax, I'd put all these players ahead of Grant too. But Magic did it all himself with no help.

No one done it by himself but Jordan right

LakersEaglesLA
12-31-2014, 10:43 PM
You're right it's not " rocket science " but again the game was far too advanced for you to understand, you may have seen Magic on TV at a young age but you didn't sit throughout an entire season, analyze every game played or even been able to form thoughts or logical thinking about what was going on.

The typical 7 year old is just learning a greater vocabulary, can tell time, dates, etc, learns social skills due to school and has an increase in some motor skills. You didn't become a " basketball guru" at 7, it just didn't happen.

I respect you selecting Magic for the player you would want for your team to start up but don't make yourself more than the person you are.

So now I was a guru? I said it was my 1st love and I understood basketball and every rule, played it and watched it every single day.. You don't get to argue MY past to try to diminish my point, it doesn't work that way

LakersEaglesLA
12-31-2014, 10:46 PM
The issue isn't thinking Magic is better.

The issue is the way he presents that argument.

There is no issue with the way I presented my argument, other than the fact I think Magic was better than Jordan

Jeffy25
12-31-2014, 10:47 PM
There is no issue with the way I presented my argument, other than the fact I think Magic was better than Jordan

The issue was that in the face of statistical facts and multiple sources of information, your response carries no facts, just opinions.

It's an opinion question, but it should at least be supported by some facts if you want anyone to take it seriously.

LakersEaglesLA
12-31-2014, 10:58 PM
3 different levels? Are you talking about high-school here?

He won an NBA championship as a rookie with a team that was a 5th seed, won a playoff round, lost to the eventual NBA champs and had 2 HOF teammates (which is the fewest HOF teammates he ever won with) the year before. He won an NBA championship where his teammate was the finals MVP.

People mention Pau because he was a lot better than Horace Grant. He went to 4 times as many all star games. He was all NBA multiple times. He had career averages of 18-10 in LA. Has Grant had a single season where he played did that?

People mention Shaq because he won every single finals MVP between him and Kobe when they were together. He was the driving force behind that team. He's one of the greatest bigs to play the game. Pippen was great, but not nearly at that level.

It isn't "kobe haters". Nobody is saying Jordan didn't have some very good teammates. They are just saying they sure weren't on that level. I don't know how insecure you have to be about a guy, when you are starting to cry out that everybody brings up Shaq, but Jordan had Paxson and that's a double standard. No it isn't. Shaq brought two other teams to the finals. Paxson... well he was a sharpshooting 7 point a game backup point guard.

And Magic's... What was it? 4 or 5 HOF players he was with there? I LOVE Magic. That's who I tried to play like as a kid. Seriously. My favorite basketball players ever were Magic, Penny, Jalen Rose... But come on. No he isn't on Jordan's level, and you could build two HOF careers with what Jordan did that Kobe didn't do.

Let me make this Simple for you, I never said magic didn't have great teammates although Kareem was in his mid 30s and played with Magic until he was 40. I said Magic had to beat Great teams to win the championship 5 times.. Celitics (great) Sixers (great) Pistons (Great) enough said.. As for Kobe you failed to mention Pau never won a playoff game in his career until he met Kobe so how great was he? Shaq was the most dominant force in nba he had nick Anderson Dennis Scott Penny Hardaway A Great team in Orlando, but he never won a chip until he had an assassin (Kobe) to pair with him.. Any other questions just ask I ain't goin nowhere

LakersEaglesLA
12-31-2014, 11:03 PM
The issue was that in the face of statistical facts and multiple sources of information, your response carries no facts, just opinions.

It's an opinion question, but it should at least be supported by some facts if you want anyone to take it seriously.

My point exactly... If you actually played and understood the game you would know that statistical analysis is not how you determine the better player

Jeffy25
12-31-2014, 11:05 PM
My point exactly... If you actually played and understood the game you would know that statistical analysis is not how you determine the better player

I did play, but thanks for silly, nonsensical assumptions, that carry absolutely no weight....you continue to show why no one takes your argument seriously....your response right here is another example of why.

Shlumpledink
12-31-2014, 11:10 PM
I did play, but thanks for silly, nonsensical assumptions, that carry absolutely no weight....you continue to show why no one takes your argument seriously....your response right here is another example of why.

I hate those arguments. Playing a sport can qualify someone for understanding the game or aspects of the game, but that doesn't omit statistics at all. Its antiquated to think otherwise.

LakersEaglesLA
12-31-2014, 11:14 PM
I did play, but thanks for silly, nonsensical assumptions, that carry absolutely no weight....you continue to show why no one takes your argument seriously....your response right here is another example of why.

Speak for yourself just because you don't take my argument seriously doesn't mean everyone feels that way.. All of these worthless stats blind people of what really goes on on the court.. With that logic drafting players should be a piece of cake, should be guaranteed to not get a bust (just draft player with best statistics) smh

Hawkeye15
01-02-2015, 11:26 AM
Speak for yourself just because you don't take my argument seriously doesn't mean everyone feels that way.. All of these worthless stats blind people of what really goes on on the court.. With that logic drafting players should be a piece of cake, should be guaranteed to not get a bust (just draft player with best statistics) smh

and who have been the best drafting teams, more or less, the last 5-7 years?

Mantle7
01-02-2015, 11:32 AM
Without quibbling over the meaning of "far" I'll just say: YES, Jordan was CLEARLY better than Kobe, and by a good sized margin. As for reasons, they're more lengthy and detailed than I feel like getting fully into, but I might suggest looking at this recent 538 piece which broke it down well:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/michael-jordan-kobe-bryant/

In short, Jordan was simply better than Kobe in essentially EVERY aspect of the game except for three point shooting--Jordan was the more efficient player, the better defender, took care of the ball better, better at causing turnovers/getting steals (only the NBA's 2d all time steals leader), drove better, better rebounder and was a better passer (although neither were great passers). The ONLY skill Kobe can back up saying he did better than Jordan was 3 three point shooting, at virtually EVERYTHING else Jordan was better. And I dare say Jordan was also better at the intangibles.

I think some people are starting to forget just how dominant prime Jordan was on both sides of the court. At his apex the dude was simultaneously the best offensive AND defensive player in the world. For cripes sake, he was named NBA Defensive Player of the Year in the same season that he ran away with the scoring title averaging 35 ppg. No modern era player since has simultaneously dominated both the offensive and defensive ends to that extent (and, fwiw, the one to come closest is Lebron, not Kobe). Prime Kobe was tremendous, but never to the all around level of prime Jordan.

Chronz
01-02-2015, 12:35 PM
Speak for yourself just because you don't take my argument seriously doesn't mean everyone feels that way.. All of these worthless stats blind people of what really goes on on the court.. With that logic drafting players should be a piece of cake, should be guaranteed to not get a bust (just draft player with best statistics) smh
Lmfao
How do You define best statistics and how does it compare to the methodology of those that are in the ACTUAL sport you pretend to understand?

effen5
01-02-2015, 12:40 PM
Without quibbling over the meaning of "far" I'll just say: YES, Jordan was CLEARLY better than Kobe, and by a good sized margin. As for reasons, they're more lengthy and detailed than I feel like getting fully into, but I might suggest looking at this recent 538 piece which broke it down well:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/michael-jordan-kobe-bryant/

In short, Jordan was simply better than Kobe in essentially EVERY aspect of the game except for three point shooting--Jordan was the more efficient player, the better defender, took care of the ball better, better at causing turnovers/getting steals (only the NBA's 2d all time steals leader), drove better, better rebounder and was a better passer (although neither were great passers). The ONLY skill Kobe can back up saying he did better than Jordan was 3 three point shooting, at virtually EVERYTHING else Jordan was better. And I dare say Jordan was also better at the intangibles.

I think some people are starting to forget just how dominant prime Jordan was on both sides of the court. At his apex the dude was simultaneously the best offensive AND defensive player in the world. For cripes sake, he was named NBA Defensive Player of the Year in the same season that he ran away with the scoring title averaging 35 ppg. No modern era player since has simultaneously dominated both the offensive and defensive ends to that extent (and, fwiw, the one to come closest is Lebron, not Kobe). Prime Kobe was tremendous, but never to the all around level of prime Jordan.

There is a video out there in regards to why Jordan didn't want to shoot 3s. I can't remember exactly what was on the video but basically he believes shooting 3s would take the rest of his team out of rhythem.

Chronz
01-02-2015, 01:00 PM
Speak for yourself just because you don't take my argument seriously doesn't mean everyone feels that way.. All of these worthless stats blind people of what really goes on on the court.. With that logic drafting players should be a piece of cake, should be guaranteed to not get a bust (just draft player with best statistics) smh


There is a video out there in regards to why Jordan didn't want to shoot 3s. I can't remember exactly what was on the video but basically he believes shooting 3s would take the rest of his team out of rhythem.
That's because he wasnt great at hitting them. His prerogative but If he had Ray Allens precision, he would Have taken more of them

Jamiecballer
01-02-2015, 01:05 PM
Speak for yourself just because you don't take my argument seriously doesn't mean everyone feels that way.. All of these worthless stats blind people of what really goes on on the court.. With that logic drafting players should be a piece of cake, should be guaranteed to not get a bust (just draft player with best statistics) smh

don't be silly, it doesn't work for amateurs just professionals :)

Jamiecballer
01-02-2015, 01:06 PM
Without quibbling over the meaning of "far" I'll just say: YES, Jordan was CLEARLY better than Kobe, and by a good sized margin. As for reasons, they're more lengthy and detailed than I feel like getting fully into, but I might suggest looking at this recent 538 piece which broke it down well:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/michael-jordan-kobe-bryant/

In short, Jordan was simply better than Kobe in essentially EVERY aspect of the game except for three point shooting--Jordan was the more efficient player, the better defender, took care of the ball better, better at causing turnovers/getting steals (only the NBA's 2d all time steals leader), drove better, better rebounder and was a better passer (although neither were great passers). The ONLY skill Kobe can back up saying he did better than Jordan was 3 three point shooting, at virtually EVERYTHING else Jordan was better. And I dare say Jordan was also better at the intangibles.

I think some people are starting to forget just how dominant prime Jordan was on both sides of the court. At his apex the dude was simultaneously the best offensive AND defensive player in the world. For cripes sake, he was named NBA Defensive Player of the Year in the same season that he ran away with the scoring title averaging 35 ppg. No modern era player since has simultaneously dominated both the offensive and defensive ends to that extent (and, fwiw, the one to come closest is Lebron, not Kobe). Prime Kobe was tremendous, but never to the all around level of prime Jordan.

we've covered all this ground already, including the fact that Jordan was a better 3 point shooter once he put the time and effort into it that Kobe did from day 1.

sp6r=underrated
01-02-2015, 01:22 PM
Millerís comment was hyperbole to the ninth degree as is the norm with commentators. It isnít enough for them to acknowledge one player is better than another. Instead most commentators enjoy making extreme because they have massive financial incentives to do so. At least in this case Miller isnít trolling as Skip Bayless does. He did accurately state the truth that Jordan was a superior player.

Jordanís superior career is almost entirely due to superior physical abilities. Both players have a similar mental makeup with the corresponding strengths and weaknesses. It is not a coincidence that Kobe will leave the NBA the same way Jordan: getting points on awful efficiency. Jordan was just a slightly better athlete in almost all areas. He has a relatively large advantage in three areas. Jordan was physically stronger than Kobe. Second he had quicker acceleration. Finally he had superior stamina. Those qualities are why Jordan had a better career than Kobe.

Jeffy25
01-02-2015, 03:25 PM
That's because he wasnt great at hitting them. His prerogative but If he had Ray Allens precision, he would Have taken more of them

And that is part of his great bball iq.

He knows he wasn't proficient, so he's not going to chuck.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2015, 03:45 PM
And that is part of his great bball iq.

He knows he wasn't proficient, so he's not going to chuck.

even the snipers didn't take that many 3's back then, it wasn't a huge part of the game, or, not anywhere as huge as now. If MJ was playing today, I would guess he would have hoisted up quite a few more three's.

But, that is speculation. I know even though most people bring him up as the midrange warrior, in truth, he attacked the rim all the time, which kept his efficiency so high.

jerellh528
01-02-2015, 03:48 PM
even the snipers didn't take that many 3's back then, it wasn't a huge part of the game, or, not anywhere as huge as now. If MJ was playing today, I would guess he would have hoisted up quite a few more three's.

But, that is speculation. I know even though most people bring him up as the midrange warrior, in truth, he attacked the rim all the time, which kept his efficiency so high.

Yup, back then even sharp shooter like Kerr would take about 2 attempts per game. Nowadays a guy like harden hoists 7 per game on 36%. Many more threes are shot today, I would have to believe jordan would've tossed up 1 or 2 more per game at least.

Bartlee23
01-03-2015, 04:23 PM
So now I was a guru? I said it was my 1st love and I understood basketball and every rule, played it and watched it every single day.. You don't get to argue MY past to try to diminish my point, it doesn't work that way


You're acting like your a 7 year old genius which I told you that you could not have been. You didn't have the capability to understand a majority of what was going on other than a name or a great dunk that you saw. I don't understand why you think you knew anything more than that unless you are some type of genius?

I can argue your past because you're saying things that couldn't have possibly happened. Why do you see no one agreeing with anything you say?