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View Full Version : Chicago Bulls fans: Jimmy Butler or Derrick Rose?



FlashBolt
12-19-2014, 03:05 AM
Is it time to give up on Rose and look for trades? Considering how well Butler has been playing, Bulls are still one piece away from being legitimate championship contenders. Is trading Rose that one piece?

DaBear
12-19-2014, 03:08 AM
Misleading thread title.

DamnGoat
12-19-2014, 03:32 AM
I don't understand the question? We don't have to pick between Rose & Butler. Butler's not going anywhere.

I also don't know what you could get for Rose in a trade to make it worth it.

FlashBolt
12-19-2014, 03:47 AM
Would you build around Rose or Butler? I think we can all agree that Butler has been their best player and has transitioned into the first option.

jp611
12-19-2014, 04:03 AM
So why can't we keep Jimmy and Derrick?

Derrick has shown flashes of his old self. Watch out once he gets his feet underneath him. This is just a silly question, because this team is going to have both for a very long time.

BKdoubleStacker
12-19-2014, 05:02 AM
They should trade Noah

DamnGoat
12-19-2014, 05:04 AM
They should trade Noah
Not sure why you think that, but I do think they need to make a trade in the frontcourt and the odd man out should be Taj Gibson. Mostly because Mirotic is really good and the Bulls need some wing depth.

DamnGoat
12-19-2014, 05:08 AM
Would you build around Rose or Butler? I think we can all agree that Butler has been their best player and has transitioned into the first option.
Why can't you build around both?

I mean, the team is already built around them and the players in place compliment them both pretty well. Rose won't bring a ton back in value right now with his injury history, so you might as well stick with him and hope for the best (and while he's been inconsistent, he's also played really well on several occasions this season) and the Bulls will absolutely keep Jimmy Butler long-term. You don't have to get rid of either one.

jp611
12-19-2014, 08:02 AM
They should trade Noah

Ummmmm. Are you insane?

chitownbulls
12-19-2014, 08:20 AM
They should trade Noah

Our defense is crap without him lol

ClutchTime
12-19-2014, 08:51 AM
I'm not a Bulls fan, but I'd have to imagine I'd be pretty upset with Rose not staying healthy. With the way Butler is playing, and with Rose showing some life this year of his old-self. You gotta keep both.

mRc08
12-19-2014, 09:15 AM
Keep both, we have one of the most promising rosters in the league, and have great depth. Jimmy will continue to develop offensively as rose gets his game back. People too quick to write off d-rose in chicago media but he has been better.

As for Noah, if you trade him the whole thing collapses. His impact doesn't appear on the stat sheet. I know its a cliche but he is our defenseive leader, lockeroom leader, and guy that holds everyone accountable. He has thibs back and allows him to push guys to a point most people think is too far.

SeoulBeatz
12-19-2014, 09:51 AM
Keep both. There's no reason to give either one up.

When healthy, the Bulls are the deepest/best team in the East.

effen5
12-19-2014, 10:30 AM
We need both unless gsw wants to trade curry for Rose :)

effen5
12-19-2014, 10:32 AM
Im open to trading taj kirk and snell tho.

pacofunk64
12-19-2014, 11:03 AM
That question is a good one though. If I had to chose I would take Butler at this given point knowing what Rose has for an injury history. That being said I don't the Bulls should even consider trading Rose. You have to remember that we don't want a 25 ppg Rose. We want a 17-20 ppg Rose that looks to create plays for his teammates more than anything. And to the Noah trade...No.

Ezio
12-19-2014, 11:08 AM
Remember when Knicks fans thought Shump was better than Butler, pepperidge farms remembers.

DamnGoat
12-19-2014, 02:46 PM
That question is a good one though. If I had to chose I would take Butler at this given point knowing what Rose has for an injury history. That being said I don't the Bulls should even consider trading Rose. You have to remember that we don't want a 25 ppg Rose. We want a 17-20 ppg Rose that looks to create plays for his teammates more than anything. And to the Noah trade...No.
See that's the thing, Rose doesn't have to be a Superstar for the team to win anymore, not with Butler's emergence and Gasol playing the way he is.

He needs to be good and sometimes great, but he doesn't need to be top 5ish level anymore for the team to be a real threat. The roster is deeper & more talented than it's ever been while Rose has been with the Bulls. They can afford to bring him along slowly, sit him when needed and try their best to just keep him healthy.

bbcmillionaire
12-19-2014, 02:58 PM
😭😂 that flashbolt guy has had it out with drose n the bulls it seemsike forever. I know there's no basketball to watch in Detroit( kinda like there's no football to watch in Chicago this year) but rose is getting back in shape after missing 2 years of nba we'll be good with rose n jimmy

beasted86
12-19-2014, 03:19 PM
It's hard to envision him going anywhere, yet in the same breath... Reinsdorf is still their owner, right?

Butler looks to be a max free agent based on comparative market value of what guys got this past summer, and the Bulls giving him that would put them into the tax.

0.0% chance that owner ever pays the luxury tax even if it was to try and keep Butler. So there is a small chance one of the two of Rose or Butler is gone, or maybe it's just other pieces shipped out... Not sure yet, anything could happen (except them keeping everyone and paying Butler).

benny01
12-19-2014, 03:27 PM
It's hard to envision him going anywhere, yet in the same breath... Reinsdorf is still their owner, right?

Butler looks to be a max free agent based on comparative market value of what guys got this past summer, and the Bulls giving him that would put them into the tax.

0.0% chance that owner ever pays the luxury tax even if it was to try and keep Butler. So there is a small chance one of the two of Rose or Butler is gone, or maybe it's just other pieces shipped out... Not sure yet, anything could happen (except them keeping everyone and paying Butler).
Yes Riensdorf is still the owner which is why I would expect that Butler gets the max and gets re-signed. Whats your point?

mudvayne387
12-19-2014, 04:06 PM
I'm not as high on the Bulls as others may be.

- Rose will never be the same. He may show flashes but it's becoming increasingly clear that he cannot stay healthy. He will also make over 20 million dollars in each of the next two seasons.

- Gasol is 34 years old and has a history of injuries. He is playing great basketball right now but will it last ?

- Butler is a restricted F/A at seasons end and will undoubtedly get some big offers from other teams.

The other concerning aspect is their lack of wins against quality teams. They beat up on the cellular dwellers of the east and continuously lose to the elite out west and even have a sub-par record against eastern playoff teams.

That is concerning because of their lack of flexibility with the current roster. Rose isn't going anywhere soon and once they pay Butler this off season, they are really stuck with their core for the foreseeable future.

Now is their core good enough to make it to the ECF ? Probably. But is it good enough to contend with the Warriors, Spurs, Thunder out West ? Doubtful.

mudvayne387
12-19-2014, 04:08 PM
Remember when Knicks fans thought Shump was better than Butler, pepperidge farms remembers.

When a handful of Knicks homers on a site with thousands of Knicks fans thought he was better ? Sure, I remember.

Remember when Bulls fans thought Rose would return to his MVP form this season ? See I can play that game too ...

Ezio
12-19-2014, 04:28 PM
When a handful of Knicks homers on a site with thousands of Knicks fans thought he was better ? Sure, I remember.

Remember when Bulls fans thought Rose would return to his MVP form this season ? See I can play that game too ...

Watch the Blazers game. Also that was before the meniscus tear. See :yawn:

mudvayne387
12-19-2014, 04:38 PM
Watch the Blazers game. Also that was before the meniscus tear. See :yawn:

You want me to watch a single game and form an opinion from that ? Surely you are joking ... He scored 31 pts and didn't do much of anything else. If LeBron had a game like that it would be an off night. Do you want to neglect the Hawks game where he went 6 of 21 from the floor, going 0 for 7 from downtown in a losing effort just a few nights ago ? The guy is done. He is a max contract role player ... It's Ok, **** Happens ...

b1e9a8r5s
12-19-2014, 04:40 PM
I'm more interested in what people think Butler's ceiling is. He's already better than I ever thought he'd be. I never saw him becoming this much of an offensive force. Barkley and Reggie were getting into it over whether he's a max guy with Reggie saying if Klay is, than Jimmy is. I guess my question is, on a championship contender, Jimmy can be your _____ best player? I don't think he can be the best player on a championship team. Can he be the 2nd best? I wouldn't have thought so, but that seems in play.

This Bulls team is hard to rank, because it's just full of very good players. If Rose is healthy (not MVP level, but healthy) they have 4 very good starters with Dunleavy as the only average to below average one. The team is so deep that I think they can do it by committee in the playoffs. One night Rose could be the go to scorer while other nights it could be Jimmy or Gasol.

Sorry, I took this a bit off topic. To the original question, like many said, I don't know why you can't build with both.

b1e9a8r5s
12-19-2014, 04:47 PM
I'm not as high on the Bulls as others may be.

- Rose will never be the same. He may show flashes but it's becoming increasingly clear that he cannot stay healthy. He will also make over 20 million dollars in each of the next two seasons.

- Gasol is 34 years old and has a history of injuries. He is playing great basketball right now but will it last ?

- Butler is a restricted F/A at seasons end and will undoubtedly get some big offers from other teams.

The other concerning aspect is their lack of wins against quality teams. They beat up on the cellular dwellers of the east and continuously lose to the elite out west and even have a sub-par record against eastern playoff teams.

That is concerning because of their lack of flexibility with the current roster. Rose isn't going anywhere soon and once they pay Butler this off season, they are really stuck with their core for the foreseeable future.

Now is their core good enough to make it to the ECF ? Probably. But is it good enough to contend with the Warriors, Spurs, Thunder out West ? Doubtful.

Obviously, Rose is a huge question mark. Can he stay healthy, and if so, what kind of Derrick Rose will he be. I'm a bulls fan, and while I'm not sure he'll ever get back to the 2010 Rose, I do think he can still be a very good player. Obviously that remains to be seen.

As for you talking about not beating good teams, I'd point out how few games they've had healthy. There front court is as deep as you'll find in the league. I hope this team can get healthy because they will have a ton of options with there depth and how they match up with teams.

DamnGoat
12-19-2014, 04:55 PM
There's no question that Butler will be re-signed...not even sure why that's a concern.

beasted86
12-19-2014, 06:15 PM
Yes Riensdorf is still the owner which is why I would expect that Butler gets the max and gets re-signed. Whats your point?

So who is going to be traded away (Rose, Noah, Pau, Taj) or cut/not-resigned (Dunleavy, Brooks) to avoid the luxury tax?

I mean, you don't really think next year is the year hell freezes over and Reinsdorf pays the tax do you?

abe_froman
12-19-2014, 06:21 PM
So who is going to be traded away our cut to avoid the luxury tax?

probably taj gibson

beasted86
12-19-2014, 06:22 PM
probably taj gibson

I could definitely see them trading him for a guy on a rookie contract or future picks.

abe_froman
12-19-2014, 06:30 PM
I could definitely see them trading him for a guy on a rookie contract or future picks.
most likely.maybe ny for a couple future 1st and early/thjr or something(just spit balling here),he could pretty much fit in anywhere and think a lot of teams would be glad to have him. tough to see him go,he's such a blue collar fan fav type of player ,but he's blocking mirotic and will make it easier to retain jimmy

Kyben36
12-19-2014, 06:59 PM
im not sure how to respond because the question is so vaugue.

if your asking, we can only keep one, which? then i would say myself, Jimmy, no questions asked,

Roses health is a concern, Rose's agressiveness has been a concern, and his pretty terrible shot selection has been a concern. he has gotten better throughout the season, but still worrisome.

if your asking, should we trade rose, like your question more asked, then No.

nobody is going to take a max contract injury prone, poorly producing player, and give you anything back, especially the "Final Peice you spoke of" best scenario is to sit on it and hope he can come back to near 100%

DamnGoat
12-19-2014, 07:42 PM
Yeah it'd be Taj on the move to clear salary and probably add depth at another position.

effen5
12-19-2014, 08:03 PM
I hope someone takes taj kirk and snell off our hands...Taj is so bad.

MTar786
12-19-2014, 08:34 PM
honestly they should trade rose. i dont even care what for. i feel it would be an addition by subtraction kind of move. bulls are a team in limbo until rose is traded imo.

MTar786
12-19-2014, 08:36 PM
it would have been cool if rondo went to the bulls. it could have solidified butler as their first option with gasol as option in post. would have gotten them better d and a guy who can get the ball to their main scorers.

beasted86
12-19-2014, 09:05 PM
I hope someone takes taj kirk and snell off our hands...Taj is so bad.

Bad? Or just overpaid?

He's not a bad player at all. Snell is hot garbage though, and probably fooled a lot of people based off summer league

Bruno
12-19-2014, 09:47 PM
Bad? Or just overpaid?

He's not a bad player at all. Snell is hot garbage though, and probably fooled a lot of people based off summer league

I have an observation on this. everything is just a little slower in summer. Snell, when I would watch him he looked good, fluid, he looked confident he looked...slightly slow. and I'm not talking about speed baseline to baseline.

his shot, his release, his movements. in those moments I saw potential but also questioned if it would work at the next level where the game is faster. if he can speed up the mannerisms within his game, I think he'll be better than hot garbage as you called it. but that remains to be seen.

DaBear
12-19-2014, 10:06 PM
honestly they should trade rose. i dont even care what for. i feel it would be an addition by subtraction kind of move. bulls are a team in limbo until rose is traded imo.

Trading a former MVP just to get rid of him. Sounds like a smart plan.

Heat fans are by far the biggest trolls on this board.

Shammyguy3
12-19-2014, 11:12 PM
It's hard to envision him going anywhere, yet in the same breath... Reinsdorf is still their owner, right?

Butler looks to be a max free agent based on comparative market value of what guys got this past summer, and the Bulls giving him that would put them into the tax.

0.0% chance that owner ever pays the luxury tax even if it was to try and keep Butler. So there is a small chance one of the two of Rose or Butler is gone, or maybe it's just other pieces shipped out... Not sure yet, anything could happen (except them keeping everyone and paying Butler).

Reinsdorf, & the Bulls, have paid the luxury tax before. If you think they haven't, then you're wrong. And there's zero reason why they wouldn't pay the luxury tax if they needed to to put the best team out there.

So this post has a lot of bad in it. And that's just putting aside me being a Bulls' fan.

DamnGoat
12-19-2014, 11:43 PM
For whatever reason, there's this notion out there that Reinsdorf is cheap, but it's backed up by nothing. When the team has been really good (like the Jordan years for example and even as recently as 2 years ago) he's paid the luxury tax.

effen5
12-19-2014, 11:59 PM
Bad? Or just overpaid?

He's not a bad player at all. Snell is hot garbage though, and probably fooled a lot of people based off summer league

No taj is bad.

FlashBolt
12-20-2014, 01:31 AM
Chicago has a better chance by getting rid of Rose's salary cap and building around Butler+Noah+Gason+Gibson. Honestly, Rose has been taking their cap and hasn't been fulfilling anything. Is he even a top 25 player? Top 30? Idk but I feel Chicago is one piece away and that one piece can't be placed if Rose is there.

gaughan333
12-20-2014, 02:07 AM
Who is gason? Gasol is too old to really 'build around', so i'm not sure what you mean. Did you mean this dude http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Gaston/Gallery ? We weren't able to sign him.

abe_froman
12-20-2014, 02:17 AM
honestly they should trade rose. i dont even care what for. i feel it would be an addition by subtraction kind of move. bulls are a team in limbo until rose is traded imo.
he's coming back from a long time off,i'd rather give it some time before saying he's done

Kashmir13579
12-20-2014, 03:46 AM
Remember when Knicks fans thought Shump was better than Butler, pepperidge farms remembers. Shump was better when I said that lol

Look man.. let Iman go play for thibs and tell me there wouldn't be similar results. The scrub coaches hes dealt with. Sheeeit! Physically they are clones and there is a reason they are compared.

I love me some Jimmy buckets tho as well as Shumpert.

abe_froman
12-20-2014, 03:53 AM
Shump was better when I said that lol

Look man.. let Iman go play for thibs and tell me there wouldn't be similar results. The scrub coaches hes dealt with. Sheeeit! Physically they are clones and there is a reason they are compared.

I love me some Jimmy buckets tho as well as Shumpert.
not really,jimmy's improvement with his offense came from himself.its not something thibs has great interest in molding(kind of his weakness,but he's gotten better with),though i agree with you that the knicks mess with coaching and development has probably kept shumpert from reaching his potential

kozelkid
12-20-2014, 04:25 AM
It's hard to envision him going anywhere, yet in the same breath... Reinsdorf is still their owner, right?

Butler looks to be a max free agent based on comparative market value of what guys got this past summer, and the Bulls giving him that would put them into the tax.

0.0% chance that owner ever pays the luxury tax even if it was to try and keep Butler. So there is a small chance one of the two of Rose or Butler is gone, or maybe it's just other pieces shipped out... Not sure yet, anything could happen (except them keeping everyone and paying Butler).
LOL I remember hearing the same thing JUST this past summer with regards to a Boozer amnesty.

And he's already paid luxury tax in the past, so you're clearly speaking out of your rear end.

beasted86
12-20-2014, 11:15 AM
Reinsdorf, & the Bulls, have paid the luxury tax before. If you think they haven't, then you're wrong. And there's zero reason why they wouldn't pay the luxury tax if they needed to to put the best team out there.

So this post has a lot of bad in it. And that's just putting aside me being a Bulls' fan.

Actually according to Sham Sports and other media they have never paid it. A quick Google search will give you the full details on a year by year basis who has paid since the tax was introduced in 2000. Last season was the first year they were on pace to pay it, then he salary dumped Deng to avoid it.

chitownbulls
12-20-2014, 11:23 AM
Actually according to Sham Sports and other media they have never paid it. A quick Google search will give you the full details on a year by year basis who has paid since the tax was introduced in 2000. Last season was the first year they were on pace to pay it, then he salary dumped Deng to avoid it.

Because last year was the first year we thought we had a legitimate shot to contend..Until Rose went out..

beasted86
12-20-2014, 12:05 PM
Actually I just double checked, and they did pay it last year. Even with the trade of Deng it wasn't quite enough and they paid for the first time via NBA.com Sekou Smith.

D-Leethal
12-20-2014, 01:01 PM
I can't see him paying it when you have cheaper options waiting in the wings and ready to contribute at a high level like Mirotic. Same reason you were able to nix Deng because Butler was ready.

jp611
12-20-2014, 01:11 PM
So who is going to be traded away (Rose, Noah, Pau, Taj) or cut/not-resigned (Dunleavy, Brooks) to avoid the luxury tax?

I mean, you don't really think next year is the year hell freezes over and Reinsdorf pays the tax do you?

Reinsdorf will pay the luxury tax for a championship-caliber team. He's also not a dumb *** like Prokhorov and doesn't go into the luxury tax for the sake of it.

I am one of the more critical Bulls fans when it comes to Reinsdorf, but he will go into the tax. It's just a matter of if the Bulls core is championship caliber.

That being said, Taj Gibson will likely be dealt to accommodate Mirotic.

effen5
12-20-2014, 01:14 PM
I can't see him paying it when you have cheaper options waiting in the wings and ready to contribute at a high level like Mirotic. Same reason you were able to nix Deng because Butler was ready.

So you let Taj go not butler. Niko already has outplayed taj.

Kaner
12-20-2014, 01:35 PM
I can't see him paying it when you have cheaper options waiting in the wings and ready to contribute at a high level like Mirotic. Same reason you were able to nix Deng because Butler was ready.

Mirotic isn't a small forward and definitely not a shooting guard but, Mirotic is why Taj should be as good as gone thou. Butler this season is basically what the Bulls always wished Deng would develop into and never did, nobody has a 22/6/3 options who plays lockdown D "waiting in the wings" especially not the Bulls with Snell being terrible and Mcdermott still unknown. The Bulls will match Butler, he's the single most important player on the team going forward and the organization have loved him since they drafted him, Reinsdorf will pay for a winning team. He proved it months ago when he amnestied Boozer, something many on this forum said he wouldn't do, he proved it a week ago with the Melky Cabrera signing, and he'll do it again when the Bulls extend Butler so hopefully that phony narrative will come to an end.

beasted86
12-20-2014, 01:39 PM
Reinsdorf will pay the luxury tax for a championship-caliber team. He's also not a dumb *** like Prokhorov and doesn't go into the luxury tax for the sake of it.

I am one of the more critical Bulls fans when it comes to Reinsdorf, but he will go into the tax. It's just a matter of if the Bulls core is championship caliber.

That being said, Taj Gibson will likely be dealt to accommodate Mirotic.

So, the Bulls probably have a solid 2 year window here where they can contend before Gasol starts to really decline and Noah starts to wear down.

Based on your suggestion of him willing to spend while you have a contender, the Bulls should:
1. Pay Butler his market value
2. Re-up Dunleavy
3. Spend the tax payer Mid-Level to add a backup PG (assuming Brooks leaves) since Kirk is on the decline
4. Not simply dump Gibson just for the sake of lowering payroll based on the ongoing injury issues with Noah and Gasol

Somehow I believe that:
1. They will still not want to pay Butler his market value, and will perform other talent diminishing moves to accommodate his salary if they do resign him
2. May cheap out on MD even when his market is probably only $3M, and instead go after someone for the minimum... coupled with the mindset we don't need more because McDermott is already good enough for major minutes on a contender (though he's not)
3. Not spend the tax payer MLE at all, and instead get someone lesser for the min on the basis of cost cutting
4. Depending on all other payroll issues, simply salary dump Gibson for that backup SG to replace MD or another spot and leave the front court thin when Noah runs out of good feet to play on

Shammyguy3
12-20-2014, 01:55 PM
So, the Bulls probably have a solid 2 year window here where they can contend before Gasol starts to really decline and Noah starts to wear down.

Based on your suggestion of him willing to spend while you have a contender, the Bulls should:
1. Pay Butler his market value
2. Re-up Dunleavy
3. Spend the tax payer Mid-Level to add a backup PG (assuming Brooks leaves) since Kirk is on the decline
4. Not simply dump Gibson just for the sake of lowering payroll based on the ongoing injury issues with Noah and Gasol

Somehow I believe that:
1. They will still not want to pay Butler his market value, and will perform other talent diminishing moves to accommodate his salary if they do resign him
2. May cheap out on MD even when his market is probably only $3M, and instead go after someone for the minimum... coupled with the mindset we don't need more because McDermott is already good enough for major minutes on a contender (though he's not)
3. Not spend the tax payer MLE at all, and instead get someone lesser for the min on the basis of cost cutting
4. Depending on all other payroll issues, simply salary dump Gibson for that backup SG to replace MD or another spot and leave the front court thin when Noah runs out of good feet to play on

Name talent diminishing moves that the Bulls' FO have done in the past to the detriment of the team.

Bulls' would love to resign Dunleavy, but that all depends on what he's getting offered from other teams. He took less to come here in the first place, so maybe he does it again. However, if he gets offered $6M+ a year for a couple seasons, how in the world can the Bulls' give him such compensation? They can't, similar to how they lost Augustin because Detroit offered him more money than the Bulls were physically able to do.

Getting someone lesser for the min on the basis of cost cutting does not equal moves which diminish talent. Look at them trading Deng to give Butler the reigns and letting DJ walk and replacing him with Aaron Brooks.

The Bulls' aren't and won't just be dumping Gibson just because of his salary. They'd do so because we have a better, younger player already that plays his position (Nikola Mirotic) - this is exactly the same reason why the Bulls' let Ronnie Brewer go (Jimmy Butler at the time), why they traded Deng (Jimmy Butler again).


I'm all for critiquing Reinsdorf, but you're doom & gloom speculation on him 100% of the time is not backed up by previous decisions and moves that the Bulls' have made.

The Bulls' will pay Butler max because he's more than earned it and he's the best player they've had since Rose during his 2011 MVP season. They will try to extend Dunleavy, but ultimately that's not completely up to them based on a ton of variables. They will use an exception to sign a free agent, most likely not a backup PG but instead on a center to backup Noah.

They will hopefully trade Gibson. Not to cut costs, but because Mirotic is already significantly better than he is and needs to be playing 30 minutes a game.

BIG worm
12-20-2014, 02:20 PM
Remember when Knicks fans thought Shump was better than Butler, pepperidge farms remembers.

This 1000

beasted86
12-20-2014, 02:23 PM
Well time will tell. This is not one of those things where I'll be glad if he doesn't spend, just to say I was right, but just don't get your hopes up.

This in not a Miami vs. Chicago thing, it's a fan vs. Owner thing with me being tired of these lame owners who take tax payers money promising certain things and don't deliver. I remember telling a bunch of people that the ******** that owns the Marlins WOULD NOT spend regardless of how many dollars were wasted on a new stadium and people didn't listen.

Based on what I've seen, Reinsdorf is of the same penny pinching over rationalizing mindset of cheap moves like Loria.

kozelkid
12-20-2014, 02:36 PM
Well time will tell. This is not one of those things where I'll be glad if he doesn't spend, just to say I was right, but just don't get your hopes up.

This in not a Miami vs. Chicago thing, it's a fan vs. Owner thing with me being tired of these lame owners who take tax payers money promising certain things and don't deliver. I remember telling a bunch of people that the ******** that owns the Marlins WOULD NOT spend regardless of how many dollars were wasted on a new stadium and people didn't listen.

Based on what I've seen, Reinsdorf is of the same penny pinching over rationalizing mindset of cheap moves like Loria.
Comparing him to Loria is pretty low. Reinsdorf, though conservative, does have business ethics and would never scam a city the way Loria has.

Reinsdorf has his priorities and while he won't open his pocket to MAKE a championship team, he will to PRESERVE it.

jp611
12-20-2014, 03:06 PM
So, the Bulls probably have a solid 2 year window here where they can contend before Gasol starts to really decline and Noah starts to wear down.

Based on your suggestion of him willing to spend while you have a contender, the Bulls should:
1. Pay Butler his market value
2. Re-up Dunleavy
3. Spend the tax payer Mid-Level to add a backup PG (assuming Brooks leaves) since Kirk is on the decline
4. Not simply dump Gibson just for the sake of lowering payroll based on the ongoing injury issues with Noah and Gasol

Somehow I hope that:
1. They will still not want to pay Butler his market value, and will perform other talent diminishing moves to accommodate his salary if they do resign him
2. May cheap out on MD even when his market is probably only $3M, and instead go after someone for the minimum... coupled with the mindset we don't need more because McDermott is already good enough for major minutes on a contender (though he's not)
3. Not spend the tax payer MLE at all, and instead get someone lesser for the min on the basis of cost cutting
4. Depending on all other payroll issues, simply salary dump Gibson for that backup SG to replace MD or another spot and leave the front court thin when Noah runs out of good feet to play on


Fixed it for ya.

72 Wins
12-20-2014, 03:13 PM
Based on what I've seen, Reinsdorf is of the same penny pinching over rationalizing mindset of cheap moves like Loria.

examples?

jp611
12-20-2014, 03:22 PM
examples?

Like when he paid Jay Williams, despite the fact that Williams broke the terms of his contract.

Or when he paid Boozer to not play on this team.

Or like when he bought out Eddie Robinson's contract for 10 million.

benny01
12-20-2014, 03:22 PM
Fixed it for ya.

yep.
despite all evidence to the contrary, I hope Reinsdorf ****s this up or the Bulls will contend in the East for the next ten years.

72 Wins
12-20-2014, 03:34 PM
Like when he paid Jay Williams, despite the fact that Williams broke the terms of his contract.

Or when he paid Boozer to not play on this team.

Or like when he bought out Eddie Robinson's contract for 10 million.

lol. Exactly what people don't know about. They just feed into the myth of him being cheap when there are plenty of examples that refute that.

quade36
12-20-2014, 05:23 PM
Neither. They need to rebuild completely. Butler, Rose, Noah, Gasol, even that new guy Mirotic.

beasted86
12-20-2014, 06:52 PM
examples?

Look man, I'm not here to argue or convince you. Just Google "Jerry Reinsdorf" "cheap" or "cheapskate" and read a couple articles. It may, but likely won't, give you an idea where it comes from.

It's clear you feel otherwise, so there is no amount of articles or opinions that I can type out to convince you otherwise. Comparatively, there are many Miami fans who think Loria is a great owner, and not cheap, and have also rationalized all his means of spending or not spending. So perception is reality. If you are happy regardless of his decisions, that's all that matters anyhow.

effen5
12-20-2014, 09:12 PM
Like when he paid Jay Williams, despite the fact that Williams broke the terms of his contract.

Or when he paid Boozer to not play on this team.

Or like when he bought out Eddie Robinson's contract for 10 million.

Or when he offered eddy curry 250k a year for life if he took the heart test and it turned positive.

Yeah reinsdorf isn't cheap.

effen5
12-20-2014, 09:14 PM
Look man, I'm not here to argue or convince you. Just Google "Jerry Reinsdorf" "cheap" or "cheapskate" and read a couple articles. It may, but likely won't, give you an idea where it comes from.

It's clear you feel otherwise, so there is no amount of articles or opinions that I can type out to convince you otherwise. Comparatively, there are many Miami fans who think Loria is a great owner, and not cheap, and have also rationalized all his means of spending or not spending. So perception is reality. If you are happy regardless of his decisions, that's all that matters anyhow.

Those articles can also.be misleading...if reinsdorf spent money for the wrong reasons we would be bkn or new york

DamnGoat
12-20-2014, 09:27 PM
Look man, I'm not here to argue or convince you. Just Google "Jerry Reinsdorf" "cheap" or "cheapskate" and read a couple articles. It may, but likely won't, give you an idea where it comes from.

It's clear you feel otherwise, so there is no amount of articles or opinions that I can type out to convince you otherwise. Comparatively, there are many Miami fans who think Loria is a great owner, and not cheap, and have also rationalized all his means of spending or not spending. So perception is reality. If you are happy regardless of his decisions, that's all that matters anyhow.
So since you read an article with clear bias that makes what you're saying here true?

It's a perception that's been out there for a long time with Reinsdorf and when the team hasn't been good, sure, he doesn't spend. You can call that being cheap if you'd like, but it's a wise business decision. Teams like the Knicks & the Nets recently have been well over the luxury tax threshold and it's gotten them nowhere so it's not as if it's an indicator of success.

On the other hand, like it's been pointed out already, when the Bulls have been title contenders, he's had no problem going into the tax. It happened just 2 years ago when the team was nowhere near as talented as they are right now. With the rising cap and trading Taj Gibson, it likely won't be much of an issue anyway.

beasted86
12-20-2014, 09:46 PM
Bulls' would love to resign Dunleavy, but that all depends on what he's getting offered from other teams. He took less to come here in the first place, so maybe he does it again. However, if he gets offered $6M+ a year for a couple seasons, how in the world can the Bulls' give him such compensation? They can't, similar to how they lost Augustin because Detroit offered him more money than the Bulls were physically able to do.

Getting someone lesser for the min on the basis of cost cutting does not equal moves which diminish talent. Look at them trading Deng to give Butler the reigns and letting DJ walk and replacing him with Aaron Brooks.


First off, nobody is paying a 35 yr old bench player $6M+ in free agency using cap space on him.

Secondly, the Bulls will own Dunleavy's early Bird Rights, which means they can offer him a contract equivalent to the full non-tax payer MLE without actually spending any of the MLE.

So if the Bulls want him back, they can have him back, because nobody is going to give him more than $5.3M, if he even gets an offer that ridiculously high. But this ties in with what I was saying before with perception being reality and some fans having a willingness to buy into however the owner spins the move. If they say they have enough in McDermott and Snell and Kirk, some people will just accept that at face value.... and there's nothing wrong with that either.

Phenomenonsense
12-20-2014, 10:11 PM
Hope the Pistons give Butler the max or something. We all know the Bulls owner is stingy.

Shammyguy3
12-20-2014, 10:20 PM
First off, nobody is paying a 35 yr old bench player $6M+ in free agency using cap space on him.

Secondly, the Bulls will own Dunleavy's early Bird Rights, which means they can offer him a contract equivalent to the full non-tax payer MLE without actually spending any of the MLE.

So if the Bulls want him back, they can have him back, because nobody is going to give him more than $5.3M, if he even gets an offer that ridiculously high. But this ties in with what I was saying before with perception being reality and some fans having a willingness to buy into however the owner spins the move. If they say they have enough in McDermott and Snell and Kirk, some people will just accept that at face value.... and there's nothing wrong with that either.

Some team actually might, there's going to be a decent cap bump again this season and Dunleavy's playing really well. Pierce just signed for $5.4M annually over 2 seasons at age 36.

Bulls' don't own Dunleavy's rights, IIRC you have to play 3 years for a team before having bird rights (or trade for a player, which doesn't matter singe MDJ was a free agent). Dunleavy has only been a Bull for 2 years now (including this season). So unless I'm wrong on that 3 year rule and it's actually 2 years, it's out of the Bulls' hands a bit.

Now, if you're right then the Bulls' absolutely will extend Dunleavy, i have complete faith in that since he fits this roster beautifully

Shammyguy3
12-20-2014, 10:21 PM
Hope the Pistons give Butler the max or something. We all know the Bulls owner is stingy.

Not accurate at all. And I hope the Pistons also give Butler the max because he's earned it, and the Bulls' won't hesitate a second matching it

Phenomenonsense
12-20-2014, 10:37 PM
Not accurate at all. And I hope the Pistons also give Butler the max because he's earned it, and the Bulls' won't hesitate a second matching it

Must be my imagination. Weird how they have that reputation based solely off of completely inaccurate information.

FlashBolt
12-20-2014, 11:19 PM
If the Bulls match Butler for a max (which he will probably get and deserve), what kind of moves can they make? It only makes sense to get rid of Rose while you can and build around Butler ASAP.

DaBear
12-20-2014, 11:55 PM
The Bulls will not let Butler walk. Get it out of your heads.

Shammyguy3
12-21-2014, 12:02 AM
Must be my imagination. Weird how they have that reputation based solely off of completely inaccurate information.

Weird how ESPN and company have no idea what they're talking about, yet they're atop the world in reporting sports. Hmmmm


If the Bulls match Butler for a max (which he will probably get and deserve), what kind of moves can they make? It only makes sense to get rid of Rose while you can and build around Butler ASAP.

I guess the Warriors should've traded Stephen Curry when Klay Thompson signed for max too

FlashBolt
12-21-2014, 12:16 AM
Weird how ESPN and company have no idea what they're talking about, yet they're atop the world in reporting sports. Hmmmm



I guess the Warriors should've traded Stephen Curry when Klay Thompson signed for max too

You're comparing Stephen Curry to Derrick Rose because? Two completely different situation.
One guy is UNDERPAID. The other guy is OVERPAID and doing NOTHING. Don't get me wrong; Rose was worth every penny THREE years ago. At this point, I can't see him getting any better. There is something going on with his health and with him still missing games; I can only assume that this will be a chronic injury.

Shammyguy3
12-21-2014, 12:36 AM
You're comparing Stephen Curry to Derrick Rose because? Two completely different situation.
One guy is UNDERPAID. The other guy is OVERPAID and doing NOTHING. Don't get me wrong; Rose was worth every penny THREE years ago. At this point, I can't see him getting any better. There is something going on with his health and with him still missing games; I can only assume that this will be a chronic injury.

The point is that just because one of your best players is due a contract doesn't mean you trade another one of your best players, especially since the Bulls' have tons of financial flexibility. Trading Rose isn't a step forwards, it's a step backwards.

Butler & Gasol's level of play means that Rose never has to return to MVP form - he simply has to be an all-star (above average efficiency and 18ish ppg). This roster is the best one the Bulls have had since '98 and you want to trade Rose for what exactly?

kobe4thewinbang
12-21-2014, 12:48 AM
http://i61.tinypic.com/2cxi1de.jpg

FlashBolt
12-21-2014, 01:13 AM
The point is that just because one of your best players is due a contract doesn't mean you trade another one of your best players, especially since the Bulls' have tons of financial flexibility. Trading Rose isn't a step forwards, it's a step backwards.

Butler & Gasol's level of play means that Rose never has to return to MVP form - he simply has to be an all-star (above average efficiency and 18ish ppg). This roster is the best one the Bulls have had since '98 and you want to trade Rose for what exactly?

1) Is Rose really considered one of their best player? I mean, he's rarely playing and when he does, he hasn't shown much impact.

2) How is it a step backward when Rose is barely playing... I don't understand.

3) I don't know who they should trade him for because quite frankly, no one wants Rose with how he has been playing. But surely, there will be calls. Like I said, I don't know what is truly going on with Rose but you can't possibly tell me that he isn't dealing with a chronic injury. He's played less than Dwyane Wade... who we all know has been ridiculed for missing games. Just how much longer can the Bulls keep this up with Rose? Do you wait it out until his contract ends and get nothing or do you find a new player to build with in Jimmy Butler and possibly, grab Goran Dragic instead.

Shammyguy3
12-21-2014, 01:36 AM
1) Rose is considered one of our best players. He still has rust, but he's played well in spurts which is encouraging considering he's still getting used to the pace of the game.

2) Rose is not barely playing, that's what you don't understand. And the chances that the Bulls get anything significant in a trade involving Rose, where such piece provides more value/potential production on the court is impossible

3) Rose is not dealing with a chronic injury. He's had multiple injuries in his career, they've all been different things. This year, he strained a hamstring and was kept out to ensure he doesn't make it worse as those are significant. Yes you wait out Rose's contract, because what the **** are you gonna do instead? Trade him for dog poop?

I'd love to grab Goran Dragic, but how would the Bulls acquire him in the first place? Why would Phoenix trade him for Derrick? I mean, i'm awaiting plausible ideas that might actually make sense for all teams involved, but you don't give up on Derrick Rose 23 games into a season when he's been off for 2 years. You let it play out and not make rash decisions.

flclfanman
12-21-2014, 06:10 AM
http://i61.tinypic.com/2cxi1de.jpg

So much fail in this post.

Butler's playing great, no doubt, so why should we trade one of our better (but rusty) players in Rose because Jimmy is doing so good? Do you want him to carry a team on his back for no reason?

And your picture analogy fails since Pippen was a max player, but they didn't have to jettison Jordan. You keep two of your good players to make your team BETTER.

Laker fans might not be used to this since one of their best players always seems to drive other good players away.

Bostonjorge
12-21-2014, 06:31 AM
Butler is the man. He's looking like the best player out east. Bulls should take advantage of gasol's play and trade Rose and Gibson to Memphis for Conley and Allen.

Now if Rose is still 2011 Rose then no one is beating the Bulls.

beasted86
12-21-2014, 10:56 AM
Some team actually might, there's going to be a decent cap bump again this season and Dunleavy's playing really well. Pierce just signed for $5.4M annually over 2 seasons at age 36.

Bulls' don't own Dunleavy's rights, IIRC you have to play 3 years for a team before having bird rights (or trade for a player, which doesn't matter singe MDJ was a free agent). Dunleavy has only been a Bull for 2 years now (including this season). So unless I'm wrong on that 3 year rule and it's actually 2 years, it's out of the Bulls' hands a bit.

Now, if you're right then the Bulls' absolutely will extend Dunleavy, i have complete faith in that since he fits this roster beautifully

Piece signed for the full MLE, not cap space. No team with a sane GM uses cap space on aging vets. Piece is also much better than Dunleavy. And 3rd, yes, for full Bird's rights it is 3 years. Full Bird's right you can offer a player a max salary if you want. But after 2 years you get a player's "Early Bird's rights" which allows you to pay them the full MLE. That's exactly how the HEAT kept Birdman this summer. They used all their cap space on Deng, McRoberts and Granger then used Early Bird on Bird to give him $5.3 after only having him 2 seasons.

Kyben36
12-21-2014, 12:02 PM
http://i61.tinypic.com/2cxi1de.jpg

Not comparable, but the question was not Which has been skewed beyond beleif.

Bulls wont trade Derrick, Bulls wont trade Jimmy, why has this turned into either or. ???, bulls can afford both, the one person who might be out is Taj, cause we have Miro.

Kyben36
12-21-2014, 12:07 PM
Simple answer from Bulls fans i think goes something like this

Bulls Arnt Trading Rose

Bulls Arnt trading Jimmy

Jimmy is a Max Player

Bulls can Afford both so this is stupid.

If one was to magically get abducted by aliens and just disappeared from our team right now., we would hope that they took rose before jimmy simply because of Roses Rust and Potential injury concerns in the future.

Point is, this is all Hypothetical, and has spiraled into a stupid thread.

InRoseWeTrust
12-21-2014, 12:42 PM
Rose, when playing, has shown he can still be very effective. He hasn't played in 2 years, so there's really no point judging who he is or isn't 20 games into his first season back after so much time away from the game.

That being said, "trade Rose because Jimmy is balling" is a knee-jerk reaction and stupid for two reasons:

(1) The Bulls can afford to keep both, period. They have a lot of flexibility going forward, so there really isn't a reason to shed Rose just to do so. Rose is worth the risk of keeping right now, which leads me to my next point;

(2) Even assuming, arguendo, that the Bulls wanted to trade Rose, there is no way they are going to get anywhere close to good value back for him. People throwing around names like Conley, etc., aren't thinking rationally right now. Why would a team like Memphis do that? The smartest thing the Bulls could do right now is continue to let Rose play and see who he is. He's put some epic games together so far this season, and prior to getting this stomach issue, had been on the floor for around 10 games. It's worth it to see what he turns into once he finds his rhythm.