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Lionel20
12-16-2014, 01:01 AM
Kobe Bryant will finish his NBA career at some point as the greatest player on the greatest franchise in NBA History

*Only Laker Seasons used in this analysis
*Player Value = a combination of Alternate Win Score, VORP, and a calculated Defensive Rating (DWS, Drtg, Defensive Teams, etc.)

Ranking by "Player Value", "age factor" and post-season values included. Sean Smith's NBA Win Shares to the right


Rank Name Player Value Win Shares
1 Kobe Bryant 25.21 202.00
2 Magic Johnson 24.81 188.00
3 K Abdul Jabbar 23.55 182.00
4 J West 21.91 189.00
5 E Baylor 20.36 119.00


Lakers NBA Franchise All-time Records

Reg Season Win Pct. = 62% (1st)
Reg Season Wins = 3190 (1st)
Playoff Appearances = 60 (1st)
Playoff Wins = 422 (1st)
Playoff Win Pct. = .593 (1st)
Overall Wins = 3612 (1st)
Overall Win% = 61% (1st)

Although the Lakers have been to more NBA Finals than any other NBA Franchise (31), the Boston Celtics have won more Titles (17) to the Lakers (16).

The Lakers Finals record is 16-15, the Celtics 17-4. But the Lakers franchise has made the post season (60) of it's (66) NBA seasons (91%), the Celtics Franchise (50) of it's (66) NBA seasons (75%). The Lakers overall franchise record best the Celtics as well:


Team W L Win%
Lakers 3612 2310 0.610
Celtics 3465 2436 0.587

InRoseWeTrust
12-16-2014, 01:23 AM
Yet, still not close to the greatest player of all time.

kingsdelez24
12-16-2014, 01:35 AM
Ze gratest no ?'s asked

jerellh528
12-16-2014, 01:39 AM
Detlef schrempf > kobe

Hotone1401
12-16-2014, 01:49 AM
Yet, still not close to the greatest player of all time.

Well duh. That's not what he's saying.

Gotta love morons.

JV35
12-16-2014, 01:50 AM
Regardless of "sabermetrics" (Magic was, and will remain, the greatest Laker).

c.c.
12-16-2014, 01:59 AM
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bS0O86cg1rM

Steve Francis > Kobe Bryant

InRoseWeTrust
12-16-2014, 02:21 AM
Well duh. That's not what he's saying.

Gotta love morons.

Yeah, I didn't say he was saying that. I was adding to the dialogue. As in, sure, Kobe may be the greatest Laker (arguably the greatest franchise) of all time, yet he's still not the greatest player of all time. Something to think about. Thanks for throwing out the moron card though.

KMackSackAttack
12-16-2014, 03:11 AM
Regardless of "sabermetrics" (Magic was, and will remain, the greatest Laker).

Sorry but magic can have 2nd place! Kobe is the lakers

Andrew32
12-16-2014, 03:18 AM
I don't really see the case for Kobe over Magic.
Magic had the better and more consistent Prime and probably the better Peak.

Early 80's Magic >>> Early 00's Kobe
Late 80's / very early 90's Magic > Late 00's Kobe

---------------------------------------------------------

Magic even has better longevity going by my "quality years" scale.

Magic was a quality player from 80-91 (12 years)
Kobe was a quality player from 00-10 (11 years)

So yeah.
Magic is still the greatest Laker in terms of just pure oncourt value.
If you wanna bring up stuff like popularity or lore or jersey sales, global popularity, importance to the franchise then yeah maybe you can say Kobe is #1 but was he a better player then Magic? Did he have a better career then Magic? I say no.

Sean Moore
12-16-2014, 03:49 AM
I don't really see the case for Kobe over Magic.
Magic had the better and more consistent Prime and probably the better Peak.

Early 80's Magic >>> Early 00's Kobe
Late 80's / very early 90's Magic > Late 00's Kobe

---------------------------------------------------------

Magic even has better longevity going by my "quality years" scale.

Magic was a quality player from 80-91 (12 years)
Kobe was a quality player from 00-10 (11 years)

So yeah.
Magic is still the greatest Laker in terms of just pure oncourt value.
If you wanna bring up stuff like popularity or lore or jersey sales, global popularity, importance to the franchise then yeah maybe you can say Kobe is #1 but was he a better player then Magic? Did he have a better career then Magic? I say no.

I can agree with Magic being over Kobe for sure, but you don't really make a basketball argument. All you did was throw around a bunch of >>>>>>>>>>.

Magic is hard to top as the greatest Laker of all time for a multitude of reasons. However Kobe is a close second. West a close third. Then kareem and so on. This is all my opinion of course and I could be a bit bias as I grew up during the Magic/Bird era. I could easily see some valid arguments in favor of Kobe though. I just have to go with Magic for what he meant to the Laker franchise. Magic literally bled and still bleeds purple and gold.

Lionel20
12-16-2014, 10:27 AM
I don't really see the case for Kobe over Magic.
Magic had the better and more consistent Prime and probably the better Peak.

Early 80's Magic >>> Early 00's Kobe
Late 80's / very early 90's Magic > Late 00's Kobe

---------------------------------------------------------

Magic even has better longevity going by my "quality years" scale.

Magic was a quality player from 80-91 (12 years)
Kobe was a quality player from 00-10 (11 years)

So yeah.
Magic is still the greatest Laker in terms of just pure oncourt value.
If you wanna bring up stuff like popularity or lore or jersey sales, global popularity, importance to the franchise then yeah maybe you can say Kobe is #1 but was he a better player then Magic? Did he have a better career then Magic? I say no.

I know Kobe's FG% is @ Allen Iverson's levels, but as the NBA's league-leading scorer how's he not a "quality player" in 2014-2015? What's your standard for quality player?

I can see the strong arguments for Magic. But there should be no doubt, in terms of overall basketball production, that Kobe wins the longevity argument hands down. Durability is a valuable attribute that needs to be factored in somehow. I know Magic's story, but we're talking strictly "oncourt value".

I developed an 'individual defensive score' a few years ago, based on DWS, Drtg, Defensive Awards (used as an "eye test" for on-ball defense), and adjusted it to each players position.

*Average = 100

Kobe (SG) = 110
Magic (PG) = 100

I believe Kobe was a much better defender than Magic.

Now, as far as Offensive Breakdowns,

Age by Age comparison Kobe vs Magic
*OWS includes playoffs
*the better offensive season of the two in bold


Age Season Player OBPM OWS
20 1998-99 BRYANT 2 3.9
21 1999-00 3.4 7.6
22 2000-01 5 11.8
23 2001-02 4.2 10.6
24 2002-03 5.9 12.2
25 2003-04 5.3 9.9
26 2004-05 5.6 7.1
27 2005-06 7 12.1
28 2006-07 5.8 11.4
29 2007-08 5 11.9
30 2008-09 4.6 11.9
31 2009-10 3.5 8.1
36 2014-15* 2.4 0.2



Age Season Player OBPM OWS
20 1979-80 JOHNSON 3.3 7.9
21 1980-81 5.6 3.8
22 1981-82 5.1 10
23 1982-83 5 10.3
24 1983-84 4 9.1
25 1984-85 4.7 11.5
26 1985-86 5.1 11.2
27 1986-87 7.2 14.7
28 1987-88 4.7 11
29 1988-89 7.8 13.6
30 1989-90 8.5 14.2
31 1990-91 7 13.6
36 1995-96 3 2.9



Out of these 13 Seasons, Magic was the more efficient offensive player in 8 of them. At age 36, Kobe will likely finished with the better season. In terms of overall offensive production, Kobe posted strong numbers Age 32-34 while Magic was retired.

Bryant's numbers

Age Year OBPM OWS
32 2010-11 4.7 7.3
33 2011-12 3.6 5.6
34 2012-13 5.1 8.4

Overall I Kobe was better in terms of basketball production. At least, that's my argument.

PhillyFaninLA
12-16-2014, 10:46 AM
I love it when people use stats and ignore the eye test. Kobe is one of the best offensive players ever but his all around game cannot compete with Shaq, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, and many other players both Laker and not.

Stats don't tell you why or how what happened did, only what happened.


edit:

also different eras have different rules. Everyone I mention above except Kobe and Shaq you where allowed to smack the players hand, hand checking rules where made during the Jordan era.

Kobe was rarely if ever the best player in the league on any year (not an insult, just an observation, its hard to be the best player in the league at any time), and during the beginning of his career was the second best player on his team.

PhillyFaninLA
12-16-2014, 10:50 AM
Yeah, I didn't say he was saying that. I was adding to the dialogue. As in, sure, Kobe may be the greatest Laker (arguably the greatest franchise) of all time, yet he's still not the greatest player of all time. Something to think about. Thanks for throwing out the moron card though.

Lay off him, he probably learned gotta love morons from his parents.

Cal827
12-16-2014, 10:56 AM
Kobe Bryant > Kobe Bryant

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-16-2014, 12:18 PM
Regardless of "sabermetrics" (Magic was, and will remain, the greatest Laker).

Negative.

Jordan

Kareem
Kobe when it's all said and done

Hawkeye15
12-16-2014, 12:53 PM
Detlef schrempf > kobe

hahaha, totally random

Chronz
12-16-2014, 01:02 PM
Negative.

Jordan

Kareem
Kobe when it's all said and done
You really believe that don't you?

AnthonyTyrael2
12-16-2014, 01:56 PM
Detlef schrempf > kobe

Lol. Enjoying this.

Actually, when both came off the bench, Schrempf was superior. He won two sixth man awards. Didn't he win them in a row too?

He also competed with the Sonics against Jordan's Bulls in a Finals series, something Kobe never had to deal with. That's a shadow laying over Houstons two titles too, though not against the franchise and its players. They did a phenomenal job. Not their fault that Mike wasn't around anymore.

Lionel20
12-16-2014, 02:44 PM
I love it when people use stats and ignore the eye test. Kobe is one of the best offensive players ever but his all around game cannot compete with Shaq, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, and many other players both Laker and not.

Stats don't tell you why or how what happened did, only what happened.


edit:

also different eras have different rules. Everyone I mention above except Kobe and Shaq you where allowed to smack the players hand, hand checking rules where made during the Jordan era.

Kobe was rarely if ever the best player in the league on any year (not an insult, just an observation, its hard to be the best player in the league at any time), and during the beginning of his career was the second best player on his team.

The "player value" metric that I using to compare Kobe v Magic has many components, one translates them into one common period, adjusting for the league average variances from each of their eras.

I agree, I doubt that Kobe was ever the best player any single season, but Kobe was in all likelihood a top-10 player (playoffs included) from 1999/2000 - 2012/2013, a 13 year stretch that outlast Magic's NBA career.

Really the only one of Magic's MVP season's that he was arguably the best player in the NBA was 1986-87. Jordan was the better player 1988-89, 1989-90.

Lastly, although Magic and Wilkes had that incredible close-out game in the 1980 Finals, Kareem was the best player on the Lakers that year, and the following year.

Andrew32
12-16-2014, 03:36 PM
Magic was just a greater offensive player then Kobe.
Looking at raw stats there isn't a huge gap. Magic has many more assists and Kobe has a good deal more points but even then I think Magics mastery of the team game, his higher BBIQ and his leadership seperates them.
Magic was a GOAT leader/teammate while Kobe was... not so good.
Plus even statistically Magic has an edge I believe even if it isn't a big one especially once you factor in his greater scoring efficiency and rebounding.

Defensively Kobe was better but imo the gap isn't huge.
Kobe is kinda overrated as a defender (though he was very good in most of his title years) and young Magic is kinda underrated as one.

Still overall I think Magic was the better player and ontop of that I think he was better in his early Prime years.
I think early 80's Magic was closer to having his Peak level impact (late 80's Magic) then early 00's Kobe was to his own Peak self (late 00's Kobe). Kobe really wasn't that spectacular in years like 00, 02 and 04.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-16-2014, 04:16 PM
Negative.

Jordan

Kareem
Kobe when it's all said and done
You really believe that don't you?

Absolutely, he'll have the third most decorated career when he retires.

still1ballin
12-16-2014, 04:59 PM
Free as seagull

FraziersKnicks
12-16-2014, 04:59 PM
How's Kobe gonna leapfrog LeBron when he's clearly not got any more championships in him and LeBron's already above him?

albertajaysfan
12-16-2014, 05:42 PM
Negative.

Jordan

Kareem
Kobe when it's all said and done

I loved Jordan and all but he really doesn't deserve to be in the convo for greatest Laker of all time, just saying. ;)

Tony_Starks
12-16-2014, 05:49 PM
Bah.its just longevity. If Monta Ellis plays 19 seasons he'll probably put up similar numbers.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-16-2014, 07:28 PM
How's Kobe gonna leapfrog LeBron when he's clearly not got any more championships in him and LeBron's already above him?

Proof? I only hear foolish things like this on psd

Munkeysuit
12-16-2014, 07:41 PM
Magic = Loved and respected
Kobe = Feared and revered


MJ = Loved, respected, feared and revered.

ldawg
12-16-2014, 08:34 PM
got to role with Magic

Hawkeye15
12-16-2014, 08:36 PM
Absolutely, he'll have the third most decorated career when he retires.

Duncan's is more impressive, even if you are throwing aside player rankings, and simply trying to push pure career.

Bruno
12-16-2014, 08:37 PM
I love it when people use stats and ignore the eye test. Kobe is one of the best offensive players ever but his all around game cannot compete with Shaq, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, and many other players both Laker and not.

Stats don't tell you why or how what happened did, only what happened.


edit:

also different eras have different rules. Everyone I mention above except Kobe and Shaq you where allowed to smack the players hand, hand checking rules where made during the Jordan era.

Kobe was rarely if ever the best player in the league on any year (not an insult, just an observation, its hard to be the best player in the league at any time), and during the beginning of his career was the second best player on his team.

all around game such as defense?

Kobe is the greatest Laker of all-time.

in my opinion.

Hawkeye15
12-16-2014, 08:40 PM
all around game such as defense?

Kobe is the greatest Laker of all-time.

I just don't think he has a strong case over Magic, and much of that is not only due to Magic being the higher ranked player all time by most, but the nostalgia, and the love fans had for him. Laker fans who are old enough cherish Magic. The whole city loved him. Kobe has never gotten that love, even if he has die hards.

Personally, I could listen to an argument on which career I would take, especially considering Magic had to retire due to HIV. But I just don't think you will be able to convince most that Magic wasn't the greatest Laker ever.

Tony_Starks
12-16-2014, 08:52 PM
all around game such as defense?

Kobe is the greatest Laker of all-time.

I just don't think he has a strong case over Magic, and much of that is not only due to Magic being the higher ranked player all time by most, but the nostalgia, and the love fans had for him. Laker fans who are old enough cherish Magic. The whole city loved him. Kobe has never gotten that love, even if he has die hards.

Personally, I could listen to an argument on which career I would take, especially considering Magic had to retire due to HIV. But I just don't think you will be able to convince most that Magic wasn't the greatest Laker ever.


That entire the whole city loved Magic and "Kobe never got that kind of love" part is pure rubbish. I'm not sure how a person that's not from here could even feel qualified to make such a statement, even if they believed it.

As someone that personally witnessed the reaction to both players I can easily say Kobe got just as much love out here as Magic, and not just by young bucks. Kobe has so much love out here that we took his side when Shaq let his mouth run his way out of town, it was the outside of Cali world that started the hate machine.…

curtcocaine
12-16-2014, 09:09 PM
That entire the whole city loved Magic and "Kobe never got that kind of love" part is pure rubbish. I'm not sure how a person that's not from here could even feel qualified to make such a statement, even if they believed it.

As someone that personally witnessed the reaction to both players I can easily say Kobe got just as much love out here as Magic, and not just by young bucks. Kobe has so much love out here that we took his side when Shaq let his mouth run his way out of town, it was the outside of Cali world that started the hate machine.
This

Hawkeye15
12-16-2014, 09:55 PM
That entire the whole city loved Magic and "Kobe never got that kind of love" part is pure rubbish. I'm not sure how a person that's not from here could even feel qualified to make such a statement, even if they believed it.

As someone that personally witnessed the reaction to both players I can easily say Kobe got just as much love out here as Magic, and not just by young bucks. Kobe has so much love out here that we took his side when Shaq let his mouth run his way out of town, it was the outside of Cali world that started the hate machine.

The love for Magic nationwide takes a total **** on the love for Kobe bud.

Fact is, 90% of this site isn't even old enough to make this an argument.

Hotone1401
12-16-2014, 10:57 PM
The love for Magic nationwide takes a total **** on the love for Kobe bud.

Fact is, 90% of this site isn't even old enough to make this an argument.

Lol this is just your opinion and I hope you realize that. Kobe is extemely beloved in LA.

jerellh528
12-16-2014, 11:44 PM
I tend to think magic was more beloved. He could do no wrong in people's eyes. It only enchanced when he was diagnosed. Kobe definatley has more of a diehard/ rabid base, and he might've surpassed the love magic got nationwide but sorry to say, that rape case kind of killed those hopes for him

mngopher35
12-17-2014, 12:03 AM
I tend to think magic was more beloved. He could do no wrong in people's eyes. It only enchanced when he was diagnosed. Kobe definatley has more of a diehard/ rabid base, and he might've surpassed the love magic got nationwide but sorry to say, that rape case kind of killed those hopes for him

This is kind of how I see it as well but everyone is entitled to their opinion. Kobe has the bigger worldwide fan base I would say with how technology has advanced and everyone can see him play now. Also agree he has more die hard fans it seems and the legal case (and even shaq fued) hurt his image with many bringing more hate than magic ever had.

Chronz
12-17-2014, 01:30 AM
Absolutely, he'll have the third most decorated career when he retires.

What is It you expect him to accomplish that will finally propel him to that level?

Chronz
12-17-2014, 01:32 AM
Lol this is just your opinion and I hope you realize that. Kobe is extemely beloved in LA.
He said NATION WIDE. But r u trying to say magic isn't extremely beloved in la?

If not, then how is this an argument?

Its not

Tony_Starks
12-17-2014, 01:50 AM
Lol this is just your opinion and I hope you realize that. Kobe is extemely beloved in LA.
He said NATION WIDE. But r u trying to say magic isn't extremely beloved in la?

If not, then how is this an argument?

Its not

His exact words were "the entire city loved Magic.Kobe never got that kind of love."

That's not talking about nationwide, that's talking LA and its total outsider hogwash. That's like me trying to tell him how Minnesota felt about KG...

Chronz
12-17-2014, 01:54 AM
His exact words were "the entire city loved Magic.Kobe never got that kind of love."

That's not talking about nationwide, that's talking LA and its total outsider hogwash. That's like me trying to tell him how Minnesota felt about KG...

Read the quote i responded to. He CLEARLY states NATION WIDE

tredigs
12-17-2014, 02:28 AM
My perspective on Kobe Bryant: He is a ridiculously talented athlete who is unfortunately a horribly inefficient/selfish/cocky offensive player, and is almost unarguably the worst defensive wing in the NBA. I would argue, the worst player in the NBA to have on your team all things considered (ego, talent, salary, effectiveness, etc). All things considered, he has made me a lot of $ this season. Love him.

Sean Moore
12-17-2014, 04:19 AM
My perspective on Kobe Bryant: He is a ridiculously talented athlete who is unfortunately a horribly inefficient/selfish/cocky offensive player, and is almost unarguably the worst defensive wing in the NBA. I would argue, the worst player in the NBA to have on your team all things considered (ego, talent, salary, effectiveness, etc). All things considered, he has made me a lot of $ this season. Love him.

I think what you really meant to say at the end there was hate him. lol

Andrew32
12-17-2014, 05:20 AM
Kobe has so much love out here that we took his side when Shaq let his mouth run his way out of town, it was the outside of Cali world that started the hate machine.

No... no that isn't true.
Most Laker fans took Shaqs side when they broke up after the 04 Finals.
Kobe was legit hated in LA following the split. I remember him getting booed by LA fans during games.

It wasn't really until 08 & 09 when the Lakers started contending and winning that LA fans started jumping back on the Kobe wagon.

Bruno
12-17-2014, 05:41 AM
No... no that isn't true.
Most Laker fans took Shaqs side when they broke up after the 04 Finals.
Kobe was legit hated in LA following the split. I remember him getting booed by LA fans during games.

It wasn't really until 08 & 09 when the Lakers started contending and winning that LA fans started jumping back on the Kobe wagon.

I live in Los Angeles. he's right, you're wrong. I'm talking about my community, schools friends, family. it was never worse than 50/50. you could have asked anyone at the time. the only thing that matters is home.

were you living in los angeles at the time?

I also think it's classic Andrew how you don't post for a year and half, only to return to make comment on Kobe. I just don't buy that you don't have a bias against him, too many red flags haha. Nice to have you back :cheers:

mngopher35
12-17-2014, 05:46 AM
No... no that isn't true.
Most Laker fans took Shaqs side when they broke up after the 04 Finals.
Kobe was legit hated in LA following the split. I remember him getting booed by LA fans during games.

It wasn't really until 08 & 09 when the Lakers started contending and winning that LA fans started jumping back on the Kobe wagon.

Really? I hadn't heard about him getting boo'd after the Shaq thing but I easily could have missed it. LA did boo him in the opener of 07-08 after he demanded a trade though, that one I remember.

Hotone1401
12-17-2014, 06:06 AM
His exact words were "the entire city loved Magic.Kobe never got that kind of love."

That's not talking about nationwide, that's talking LA and its total outsider hogwash. That's like me trying to tell him how Minnesota felt about KG...

Yes but the argument he was trying to make before is that Magic is more beloved than Kobe in the city of LA and I don't find that to be true.

Plus, why does it matter what the entire nation thinks? Obviously, there are plenty of Kobe haters today. You can't hate Magic because of his unfortunate circumstances with HIV so the entire nation supported him because it was a death sentence at that time. He also was a star that carried the league along with Bird during the 80's so that plays a huge part.

If we're talking about the greatest Laker of all-time, it's very close between the two players and definitely a lot closer than Hawkeye was trying to say. Kobe is as big, if not bigger than any Laker in franchise history in the eyes of LA fans.

Andrew32
12-17-2014, 06:27 AM
I live in Los Angeles. he's right, you're wrong. I'm talking about my community, schools friends, family. it was never worse than 50/50. you could have asked anyone at the time. the only thing that matters is home.


Fair enough.
I didn't live in LA but I did speak to and observe countless fans and Laker fans on message boards during the time and the general sentiment during that time even from the Laker fans seemed to be pretty anti-Kobe with the usual critiques (He ran Shaq & Phil out of town, he was carried by Shaq and can't win without him, look at how bad the team is now, rapist, etc...)
This was the time when Kobe put on that fake choir boy persona to the media which was kinda painful to watch.

I can buy that in LA Kobe had more support (maybe closer to 50/50 like you said) but certainly then outside of LA he wasn't getting much support.

I also don't remember Shaq getting much hate back then.
Laker fans were pretty supportive of him and him having team success in 05/06 only made it harder for them not to support him.
Then once Kobe started winning you saw this avalanche of Shaq hate and people trying to diminish him and prop up Kobe.

I am not taking sides here btw nor am I saying that Kobe deserved the hate I am just pointing out how I remember people thinking back then. In the end it doesn't really mean anything and it isn't a critique of Kobe or something.


I also think it's classic Andrew how you don't post for a year and half, only to return to make comment on Kobe.

I haven't only posted about Kobe since my return. :o



Nice to have you back :cheers:

And I am glad you are still around Bruno. I actually thought of you upon my return.


Really? I hadn't heard about him getting boo'd after the Shaq thing but I easily could have missed it. LA did boo him in the opener of 07-08 after he demanded a trade though, that one I remember.

Yeah I remember him getting booed in many games at the Staples center during 05 & 06 especially when they were losing or getting blown out.

This was mainly during 05 and to a lesser extent 06 fresh off all the drama.

Lionel20
12-17-2014, 07:13 AM
I tend to think magic was more beloved. He could do no wrong in people's eyes. It only enchanced when he was diagnosed. Kobe definatley has more of a diehard/ rabid base, and he might've surpassed the love magic got nationwide but sorry to say, that rape case kind of killed those hopes for him

I never lived in LA, but I doubt many people thought Magic can "do no wrong" following the '84 Finals

Tony_Starks
12-17-2014, 11:57 AM
Let's keep in mind at one point Magic was being called "Tragic Johnson" and that was before HIV. Also at the time of his announcement it went from hate to some people being downright cruel.

So he wasn't immune to hate either, when you play for LA it comes with the territory.

And for the person that said some people out here took Shaqs side that's flat out wrong. He was getting boo'd at here for the longest. It wasn't until him and Kobe buried the hatchet that fans in general in LA embraced him again.

But back to Kobe, as stated he gets crazy love out here. If you want to go nationwide he has sections of fans that can be heard and seen at every single arena he plays in. Including Boston, Sacramento, and San Antonio. Please tell me another 36 year old you can say that about?

Hawkeye15
12-17-2014, 12:19 PM
Lol this is just your opinion and I hope you realize that. Kobe is extemely beloved in LA.

as is Magic. Nationwide, its really not even close. Magic was loved by every fanbase outside Boston really. And by the general public. It will be impossible for Kobe to pass Magic as the greatest Laker in the public's eye. Now, Kobe has a rabid LA fanbase for sure that are ridiculous about him. But they don't represent the population as a whole.

I also think as a player Magic was the greatest Laker.

Jamiecballer
12-17-2014, 12:21 PM
as is Magic. Nationwide, its really not even close. Magic was loved by every fanbase outside Boston really. And by the general public. It will be impossible for Kobe to pass Magic as the greatest Laker in the public's eye. Now, Kobe has a rabid LA fanbase for sure that are ridiculous about him. But they don't represent the population as a whole.

I also think as a player Magic was the greatest Laker.

not to mention the fact that if a franchise could be represented by an individual player there is no doubt Magic Johnson is a much better face of the franchise.

Hangin n Wangin
12-17-2014, 12:55 PM
That entire the whole city loved Magic and "Kobe never got that kind of love" part is pure rubbish. I'm not sure how a person that's not from here could even feel qualified to make such a statement, even if they believed it.

As someone that personally witnessed the reaction to both players I can easily say Kobe got just as much love out here as Magic, and not just by young bucks. Kobe has so much love out here that we took his side when Shaq let his mouth run his way out of town, it was the outside of Cali world that started the hate machine.

Why do you even bother wasting your time with Hawkeye? The guy is more of a clown job than the man he has a huge fettish for.....Lebron. Hawkeye is like the mom from "Everybody Loves Raymond" when it comes to Kobe. He will say things about Kobe in a nice way to make it seem like he is complimenting him, but really, he is just throwing out backhanded insults. The dude has been a joke and known Kobe hater in this forum for years.

Hangin n Wangin
12-17-2014, 12:59 PM
My perspective on Kobe Bryant: He is a ridiculously talented athlete who is unfortunately a horribly inefficient/selfish/cocky offensive player, and is almost unarguably the worst defensive wing in the NBA. I would argue, the worst player in the NBA to have on your team all things considered (ego, talent, salary, effectiveness, etc). All things considered, he has made me a lot of $ this season. Love him.

My perspective on you. You suck.

Hangin n Wangin
12-17-2014, 01:15 PM
It's pretty funny. Most of the people in this NBA forum that dislike Kobe can't seem to find anything else to talk about, except Kobe. They have to get their little jabs in on why he can't do this or why he didn't do that. Do you people really need to try to prove to a bunch of other people on a forum you don't know, why you think he is lower on your all time list than someone else? Who gives a ****??? Find someone else to talk about. The NBA (other than Kobe) must be pretty boring to talk about if half the threads in here are about if Kobe's left ball sack hangs lower than his right.

Hawkeye15
12-17-2014, 02:43 PM
It's pretty funny. Most of the people in this NBA forum that dislike Kobe can't seem to find anything else to talk about, except Kobe. They have to get their little jabs in on why he can't do this or why he didn't do that. Do you people really need to try to prove to a bunch of other people on a forum you don't know, why you think he is lower on your all time list than someone else? Who gives a ****??? Find someone else to talk about. The NBA (other than Kobe) must be pretty boring to talk about if half the threads in here are about if Kobe's left ball sack hangs lower than his right.

It's actually the opposite. The Kobe protection squad are never in any thread that has nothing to do with him typically. The same But, keep reaching..

Tony_Starks
12-17-2014, 02:49 PM
This is KD's perspective on Kobe but ehh, what does he know?
__________________________________________________ ____


When asked about Kobe Bryant's recent passing of Michael Jordan for third place on the NBA's all-time scoring list, the Oklahoma City Thunder star who will be a free agent in the summer of 2016 not only raved about the Lakers legend's achievement, but also refuted the notion that players around the league don't want to play with him.


While Durant wasn't specifically addressing his own uncertain future, he insisted that the player perspective relating to Bryant shouldn't be a hindrance as the 8-17 Lakers continue their laborious turnaround.

"Excuse my language, but that's (expletive)," said Durant, who congratulated Bryant via text message after he surpassed Jordan on Sunday. "I want to play with a winner every single night, especially somebody who wants to win that bad, who works that hard, who demands a lot, who raises up your level. I'd want to play with a guy like that every day. ... (His style) may make people uncomfortable, how he acts and just how he approaches the game, but I love that type of stuff. I think (the accusation) is BS."


"Just his work ethic, just his demeanor man," Durant said when asked what he admired about Bryant. "He doesn't mind being an (expletive), and he comes to work man. He's intense. He demands a lot out of his teammates, and I've seen that just playing alongside him in the Olympics (in 2012). He demands a lot out of everybody. He makes them better. Everybody out on the court. You've got to respect that. As a player, I study guys like that. We might not have the same personality, but I think we approach the game the same way and I've learned a lot from just watching him."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2014/12/16/kevin-durant-kobe-bryant-lakers/20506671/

Hangin n Wangin
12-17-2014, 02:55 PM
It's actually the opposite. The Kobe protection squad are never in any thread that has nothing to do with him typically. The same But, keep reaching..

Keep spewing garbage out of your mouth.

ewing
12-17-2014, 03:55 PM
as is Magic. Nationwide, its really not even close. Magic was loved by every fanbase outside Boston really. And by the general public. It will be impossible for Kobe to pass Magic as the greatest Laker in the public's eye. Now, Kobe has a rabid LA fanbase for sure that are ridiculous about him. But they don't represent the population as a whole.

I also think as a player Magic was the greatest Laker.


he is also huge in China. Like the Hasseloff in Germany. The Chinese love Kobe

Hawkeye15
12-17-2014, 04:12 PM
he is also huge in China. Like the Hasseloff in Germany. The Chinese love Kobe

they do, they do

Hawkeye15
12-17-2014, 04:17 PM
Keep spewing garbage out of your mouth.

example: I just looked at your posting history. It took me nearly 60 posts to find a non-LA related post, and then the next 30 were back to LA related before I stopped looking.

You were saying?

JasonJohnHorn
12-18-2014, 03:00 AM
My perspective on Kobe Bryant: Chucker.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-18-2014, 03:13 AM
My perspective on Kobe Bryant: Chucker.

That's fine. He'll still be a top 5 player when he retires

FraziersKnicks
12-18-2014, 05:07 AM
That's fine. He'll still be a top 5 chucker when he retires

Finally something I agree with.

JasonJohnHorn
12-18-2014, 09:55 AM
That's fine. He'll still be a top 5 player when he retires

Which of these players will be be 'above'?
Jordan
Bird
Magic
Wilt
The Big O
Russell
Hakeem
Duncan
Kareem
Shaq

Hawkeye15
12-18-2014, 02:46 PM
Which of these players will be be 'above'?
Jordan
Bird
Magic
Wilt
The Big O
Russell
Hakeem
Duncan
Kareem
Shaq

do you realize who you are asking that question to? For what it's worth, I do think Kobe is better than Oscar, and I switched over to tiers a while back, he is in the same tier as Bird, and Russell. But everyone else listed there is higher, and LeBron is in his tier as well.

Sactown
12-18-2014, 02:56 PM
Kobe Bryant is going to have the greatest impact on the most historic franchise in league history .. this is a fact

This has nothing to do with where a player ranks all time.. Kobe will end up playing like 20 seasons on the most prestigious franchise in league history.. each season with significant impact

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-18-2014, 03:02 PM
That's fine. He'll still be a top 5 player when he retires

Which of these players will be be 'above'?
Jordan
Bird
Magic
Wilt
The Big O
Russell
Hakeem
Duncan
Kareem
Shaq

Bird,O,Russell, Hakeem,shaq

Hawkeye15
12-18-2014, 03:07 PM
Kobe Bryant is going to have the greatest impact on the most historic franchise in league history .. this is a fact

This has nothing to do with where a player ranks all time.. Kobe will end up playing like 20 seasons on the most prestigious franchise in league history.. each season with significant impact

that would limit players from 2 teams ever. Lakers and Celtics. I get what you are saying, but I think Michael has the more impact on his franchise, Duncan for the Spurs, and for sure Russell on the Celtics..

Sactown
12-18-2014, 03:09 PM
that would limit players from 2 teams ever. Lakers and Celtics. I get what you are saying, but I think Michael has the more impact on his franchise, Duncan for the Spurs, and for sure Russell on the Celtics..

Bulls spurs aren't historic franchises and the Celtics won most of their rings when the competition was at its worst leaving one franchise with one player who has played 15+ seasons at a high level

Hawkeye15
12-18-2014, 03:23 PM
Bulls spurs aren't historic franchises and the Celtics won most of their rings when the competition was at its worst leaving one franchise with one player who has played 15+ seasons at a high level

so you are narrowing it down to you can be only a Laker? I get your line of thinking, but, as you said, that has zero impact on all time ranking.

Sactown
12-18-2014, 03:25 PM
so you are narrowing it down to you can be only a Laker? I get your line of thinking, but, as you said, that has zero impact on all time ranking.

Yep exactly, has nothing to do with all time ranking, but even if you include the Celtics, I think there's an easy argument that Kobes run trumps Russels when you factor competition..

has nothing to do with prime or ranking, just simply who has had the greatest production+longevity, on a franchise with over 15 rings, and the answer is Kobe

mngopher35
12-18-2014, 03:30 PM
Bird,O,Russell, Hakeem,shaq

I disagree with shaq and Hakeem, but you realize this would leave Kobe out of the top 5 still right?

Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Duncan
Magic

Sactown
12-18-2014, 03:37 PM
I think it's funny that the difference, between "A hater and a troll" and a "Kobe lover, dick rider, troll" in rankings amongst all the players to EVER play this game (so amongst thousands and thousands" is like 5-8 spots lol

Lionel20
12-18-2014, 04:05 PM
Which of these players will be be 'above'?
Jordan
Bird
Magic
Wilt
The Big O
Russell
Hakeem
Duncan
Kareem
Shaq

I would take Kobe over Big O. I think if you adjust for pace some of Robertson's rebounds and assist per game go down. Roberston was a better offensive player than Kobe, but Big O from all I gather was poor defensively. Kobe was the better all-around player.

I would also take Kobe over Bill Russell. Again if you adjust for pace, and isolate Russell from HOF teammates somewhat, he was basically the guy at the bottom of your profile with about 3 more buckets a game.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-18-2014, 05:31 PM
Bird,O,Russell, Hakeem,shaq

I disagree with shaq and Hakeem, but you realize this would leave Kobe out of the top 5 still right?

Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Duncan
Magic

He's over wilt already.

JasonJohnHorn
12-18-2014, 05:39 PM
I would take Kobe over Big O. I think if you adjust for pace some of Robertson's rebounds and assist per game go down. Roberston was a better offensive player than Kobe, but Big O from all I gather was poor defensively. Kobe was the better all-around player.

I would also take Kobe over Bill Russell. Again if you adjust for pace, and isolate Russell from HOF teammates somewhat, he was basically the guy at the bottom of your profile with about 3 more buckets a game.

Why don't you isolate Kobe from his HOF teammates while you're at it? ;-)

As for The Big O's D, I've heard guys like Kareem and West say he was among the best defenders in the league. It's hard to tell though, given that there isn't a lot of footage.

JasonJohnHorn
12-18-2014, 05:47 PM
Kobe Bryant is going to have the greatest impact on the most historic franchise in league history .. this is a fact

This has nothing to do with where a player ranks all time.. Kobe will end up playing like 20 seasons on the most prestigious franchise in league history.. each season with significant impact

You think he was any more than a chucker ball hog his first two seasons? Reading Shaq''s autobiography, Kobe stunted the offense those two seasons and made a lot of enemies by chucking up god awful shots.

Their first three titles, Shaq got finals MPV (Jordan got 6 to Kobe's 2).
In 05 he missed most of the season.
His missed most of last season.
And his only impact on the team right now is making sure that the player with the worst FG% (outside of Ronnie Price) on the team gets the most shots so that they have a chance of keeping their draft pick this year.

You make it sound like he's been their MVP for 20 years, when he really only became their MVP after he ran Shaq out of town... and the year Shaq was there and Kobe got more shots, they failed to win a title, even with Malone and Payton.


Duncan has been more central to the Spurs on a year-by-year basis than has Kobe.


Kobe is the second greatest shooting guard of all time, without question, but he doesn't even make my top ten.

Tony_Starks
12-18-2014, 05:57 PM
Kobe Bryant is going to have the greatest impact on the most historic franchise in league history .. this is a fact

This has nothing to do with where a player ranks all time.. Kobe will end up playing like 20 seasons on the most prestigious franchise in league history.. each season with significant impact

You think he was any more than a chucker ball hog his first two seasons? Reading Shaq''s autobiography, Kobe stunted the offense those two seasons and made a lot of enemies by chucking up god awful shots.

Their first three titles, Shaq got finals MPV (Jordan got 6 to Kobe's 2).
In 05 he missed most of the season.
His missed most of last season.
And his only impact on the team right now is making sure that the player with the worst FG% (outside of Ronnie Price) on the team gets the most shots so that they have a chance of keeping their draft pick this year.

You make it sound like he's been their MVP for 20 years, when he really only became their MVP after he ran Shaq out of town... and the year Shaq was there and Kobe got more shots, they failed to win a title, even with Malone and Payton.


Duncan has been more central to the Spurs on a year-by-year basis than has Kobe.


Kobe is the second greatest shooting guard of all time, without question, but he doesn't even make my top ten.


You know excess salt leads to hypertension right? Be careful buddy.

Lionel20
12-18-2014, 06:11 PM
Why don't you isolate Kobe from his HOF teammates while you're at it? ;-)



I try to, to the same extent that I do with Russell. In orders words, it's not about how many championships Bill Russell won, it's about his share in contribution..

Bill Russell HOF teammates:

1956-57
Bob Cousy
Tom Heinsohn
Frank Ramsey
Bill Sharman
1957-58
Bob Cousy
Tom Heinsohn
Sam Jones
Frank Ramsey
Bill Russell
Bill Sharman
1958-59
Bob Cousy
Tom Heinsohn
K.C. Jones
Sam Jones
Frank Ramsey
Bill Sharman
1959-60
Bob Cousy
Tom Heinsohn
K.C. Jones
Sam Jones
Frank Ramsey
Bill Sharman
1960-61
Bob Cousy
Tom Heinsohn
K.C. Jones
Sam Jones
Frank Ramsey
Bill Sharman
1961-62
Bob Cousy
Tom Heinsohn
K.C. Jones
Sam Jones
Frank Ramsey
1962-63
Bob Cousy
John Havlicek
Tom Heinsohn
K.C. Jones
Sam Jones
Frank Ramsey
1963-64
John Havlicek
Tom Heinsohn
K.C. Jones
Sam Jones
Frank Ramsey
1964-65
John Havlicek
Tom Heinsohn
K.C. Jones
Sam Jones
1965-66
John Havlicek
K.C. Jones
Sam Jones
1966-67
John Havlicek
Bailey Howell
K.C. Jones
Sam Jones
1967-68
John Havlicek
Bailey Howell
Sam Jones
1968-69
John Havlicek
Bailey Howell
Sam Jones


And these aren't just old far-past-their-primes Gary Payton/Karl Malone's in LA. These are some of the greatest players of their respective times. While Russell was the best player, if you divide credit for the 50's/60's Celtics success among each of these HOFamers for their role on these teams it puts things in better perspective.

Lionel20
12-18-2014, 06:17 PM
As for The Big O's D, I've heard guys like Kareem and West say he was among the best defenders in the league. It's hard to tell though, given that there isn't a lot of footage.

Yeah, debatable.. I read dozens of old articles from basketball experts, they basically claim that Roberston took defense off... like his whole career.

JasonJohnHorn
12-18-2014, 07:04 PM
You know excess salt leads to hypertension right? Be careful buddy.

Was there something I said in there that was inaccurate?

Rookie Kobe 7.6 points per game on .417 shooting: non-factor.
Sophmpore Kobe Not even a starter .428 shooting.
Third Year Kobe: .430 shooting in the playoffs, but solid year in the starting line-up.
2000-2002: Championships with Shaq winning MVP and taking the most shots.
2003-2004: Kobe now taking more shots than Shaq, no championships despite having Malone and Payton in 2004.
2005: Injury- miss playoffs.
2006-2013: Team's MVP, 2 championship, very impressive.
2014: Injured/non-facotr
2015: Second worst FG% on team, highest shots.


What about that is inaccurate?

The statement was that he's been playing on the Lakers for 20 years and has been one of the most important players on the team for all of them. That is not true. It is, however, true of Tim Duncan.

That is not even a subjective point. That is a fact. He was a below average player as a rookie, he was an average player with horrid shot selection as a sophmore, he was second fiddle to Shaq for three rings, then took over the shooting and lost. He was injured in 2005, he played next to no games last year, and no he's the second worst shooter on the team. Those seasons he was virtually a non or negative factor for the Lakers.

Duncan has been the corner stone to the Spurs every year since he got there.

JasonJohnHorn
12-18-2014, 07:06 PM
I try to, to the same extent that I do with Russell. In orders words, it's not about how many championships Bill Russell won, it's about his share in contribution..

Bill Russell HOF teammates:

1956-57
Bob Cousy
Tom Heinsohn
Frank Ramsey
Bill Sharman
1957-58
Bob Cousy
Tom Heinsohn
Sam Jones
Frank Ramsey
Bill Russell
Bill Sharman
1958-59
Bob Cousy
Tom Heinsohn
K.C. Jones
Sam Jones
Frank Ramsey
Bill Sharman
1959-60
Bob Cousy
Tom Heinsohn
K.C. Jones
Sam Jones
Frank Ramsey
Bill Sharman
1960-61
Bob Cousy
Tom Heinsohn
K.C. Jones
Sam Jones
Frank Ramsey
Bill Sharman
1961-62
Bob Cousy
Tom Heinsohn
K.C. Jones
Sam Jones
Frank Ramsey
1962-63
Bob Cousy
John Havlicek
Tom Heinsohn
K.C. Jones
Sam Jones
Frank Ramsey
1963-64
John Havlicek
Tom Heinsohn
K.C. Jones
Sam Jones
Frank Ramsey
1964-65
John Havlicek
Tom Heinsohn
K.C. Jones
Sam Jones
1965-66
John Havlicek
K.C. Jones
Sam Jones
1966-67
John Havlicek
Bailey Howell
K.C. Jones
Sam Jones
1967-68
John Havlicek
Bailey Howell
Sam Jones
1968-69
John Havlicek
Bailey Howell
Sam Jones


And these aren't just old far-past-their-primes Gary Payton/Karl Malone's in LA. These are some of the greatest players of their respective times. While Russell was the best player, if you divide credit for the 50's/60's Celtics success among each of these HOFamers for their role on these teams it puts things in better perspective.

There are guys on the list who couldn't evne shoot .400
The classic guys got in the HOF just for being on a team with Russell. He made the HOFers. Has Kobe ever done that for a player?

You think any of those guys you mentioned could take Odam or Gasol one-on-one? Seriously?

Don't give me the 'Russell had more talent' argument. Kobe has had a LOT of talent, and if he were more like Tim Duncan, he would have been able to keep more of it around him for a longer period of time.

Sean Moore
12-18-2014, 10:38 PM
There are guys on the list who couldn't evne shoot .400
The classic guys got in the HOF just for being on a team with Russell. He made the HOFers. Has Kobe ever done that for a player?

You think any of those guys you mentioned could take Odam or Gasol one-on-one? Seriously?

Don't give me the 'Russell had more talent' argument. Kobe has had a LOT of talent, and if he were more like Tim Duncan, he would have been able to keep more of it around him for a longer period of time.

So now this is about one-on-one. If you wanna bring that into the equation you have lost the argument completely by your own doing.

LA_Raiders
12-18-2014, 10:41 PM
Goat right next to MJ

jerellh528
12-18-2014, 11:14 PM
There are guys on the list who couldn't evne shoot .400
The classic guys got in the HOF just for being on a team with Russell. He made the HOFers. Has Kobe ever done that for a player?

You think any of those guys you mentioned could take Odam or Gasol one-on-one?Seriously?

Don't give me the 'Russell had more talent' argument. Kobe has had a LOT of talent, and if he were more like Tim Duncan, he would have been able to keep more of it around him for a longer period of time.

If you wanna go one v one, then kobe is goat.

Chronz
12-18-2014, 11:52 PM
That's fine. He'll still be a top 5 player when he retires

You truly believe that, don't you?

Hawkeye15
12-18-2014, 11:54 PM
If you wanna go one v one, then kobe is goat.

Jordan would have beat him easily. And that is saying something, because I think 28 year old Kobe could take anyone, outside MJ. Maybe Connie Hawkins? I also think there are some sneaky mofos, like Andrew Toney, or Bernard King, that would be so good 1-1

Chronz
12-18-2014, 11:58 PM
Really? I hadn't heard about him getting boo'd after the Shaq thing but I easily could have missed it. LA did boo him in the opener of 07-08 after he demanded a trade though, that one I remember.

The boo birds came when they were on that LONG losing streak

Sean Moore
12-19-2014, 12:05 AM
If you wanna go one v one, then kobe is goat.

For real. I can't believe he would use that in his argument against Kobe. Slippin.

FlashBolt
12-19-2014, 02:47 AM
There are guys on the list who couldn't evne shoot .400
The classic guys got in the HOF just for being on a team with Russell. He made the HOFers. Has Kobe ever done that for a player?

You think any of those guys you mentioned could take Odam or Gasol one-on-one? Seriously?

Don't give me the 'Russell had more talent' argument. Kobe has had a LOT of talent, and if he were more like Tim Duncan, he would have been able to keep more of it around him for a longer period of time.

Of course they couldn't take Gasol/Odom 1v1.. Neither could Russell. This guy was completely trash on offense. His defense is very overrated as well. I can't give credit to some guy who's team was by far the most stacked. If not for Celtics, Wilt would have more rings than Zales. Put Bill in Wilt's place and Wilt in Bill's place.. Then tell me Bill would win a ring.


This is KD's perspective on Kobe but ehh, what does he know?
__________________________________________________ ____


When asked about Kobe Bryant's recent passing of Michael Jordan for third place on the NBA's all-time scoring list, the Oklahoma City Thunder star who will be a free agent in the summer of 2016 not only raved about the Lakers legend's achievement, but also refuted the notion that players around the league don't want to play with him.


While Durant wasn't specifically addressing his own uncertain future, he insisted that the player perspective relating to Bryant shouldn't be a hindrance as the 8-17 Lakers continue their laborious turnaround.

"Excuse my language, but that's (expletive)," said Durant, who congratulated Bryant via text message after he surpassed Jordan on Sunday. "I want to play with a winner every single night, especially somebody who wants to win that bad, who works that hard, who demands a lot, who raises up your level. I'd want to play with a guy like that every day. ... (His style) may make people uncomfortable, how he acts and just how he approaches the game, but I love that type of stuff. I think (the accusation) is BS."


"Just his work ethic, just his demeanor man," Durant said when asked what he admired about Bryant. "He doesn't mind being an (expletive), and he comes to work man. He's intense. He demands a lot out of his teammates, and I've seen that just playing alongside him in the Olympics (in 2012). He demands a lot out of everybody. He makes them better. Everybody out on the court. You've got to respect that. As a player, I study guys like that. We might not have the same personality, but I think we approach the game the same way and I've learned a lot from just watching him."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2014/12/16/kevin-durant-kobe-bryant-lakers/20506671/

Everyone has respect for Kobe.. even LeBron. I don't know why people insist on creating tension between players who mutually respect one another.


I love it when people use stats and ignore the eye test. Kobe is one of the best offensive players ever but his all around game cannot compete with Shaq, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, and many other players both Laker and not.

Stats don't tell you why or how what happened did, only what happened.


edit:

also different eras have different rules. Everyone I mention above except Kobe and Shaq you where allowed to smack the players hand, hand checking rules where made during the Jordan era.

Kobe was rarely if ever the best player in the league on any year (not an insult, just an observation, its hard to be the best player in the league at any time), and during the beginning of his career was the second best player on his team.

Shaq wasn't even an all-around player.. This dude's dominance came off his athleticism and sheer size. He would outmuscle and shove you for that dunk. I love Shaq but he did not have the complete package. Smack the players hand.. give me a break. That stuff still happens. They call it in games but there are plenty of times where it does happen and no one gets a call. You're forgetting that the league today is much more advanced than before. Defense is tougher since there are more offensive plays being played, players are more athletic, quicker, skilled. Shaq would not dominate in this era like he did during his.

basketfan4life
12-19-2014, 04:40 AM
Some Lakers fans here say ridiculous things, really. Some Kobe haters say even more ridiculous, absolutely off based things.

Then there are knowledgable fans like Chronz and Hawwkeye and some others, who don't even touch the things said from haters and try to rip Kobe fans apart. Even they themselves don't say off based things about Kobe.

Some of the posts here JohnHorn and Andrew and some other typical Kobe Haters sent, knowing Chronz, he could/should destroy them in a minute, but nooo , there some Kobe fan said "Kobe is the 6th all time" instead of 8-9, lets beat him to death with our words.

Lionel20
12-19-2014, 04:01 PM
There are guys on the list who couldn't evne shoot .400
The classic guys got in the HOF just for being on a team with Russell. He made the HOFers. Has Kobe ever done that for a player?

You think any of those guys you mentioned could take Odam or Gasol one-on-one? Seriously?

Don't give me the 'Russell had more talent' argument. Kobe has had a LOT of talent, and if he were more like Tim Duncan, he would have been able to keep more of it around him for a longer period of time.

What makes Bill Russell so much better than Dikembe Mutombo?

It is because Russell had 11 championships.. a "team stat"? How much does that really tell me about him as individual player?

9 of Bill Russell's teammates had 5 or more NBA Championships. Does that make them all-time greats too?

And you bash his teammates for shooting below 40%, when Russell @ the Center position, shot only 44% for his career. With everyone shooting so inaccurately, that likely explains why rebounds were so inflated.

Hawkeye15
12-19-2014, 04:05 PM
What makes Bill Russell so much better than Dikembe Mutombo?

It is because Russell had 11 championships.. a "team stat"? How much does that really tell me about him as individual player?

9 of Bill Russell's teammates had 5 or more NBA Championships. Does that make them all-time greats too?

And you bash his teammates for shooting below 40%, when Russell @ the Center position, shot only 44% for his career. With everyone shooting so inaccurately, that likely explains why rebounds were so inflated.

Wilt would have rolled over Deke, Russell was a fantastic athlete who was great at helping weakside, and still be able to recover to his man. Also an excellent passer, and he won a chip as a player/coach. Very high IQ. Deke is nowhere near his class as an athlete, and this is coming from someone who thinks Deke was very underrated as a player.

tredigs
12-19-2014, 08:25 PM
What makes Bill Russell so much better than Dikembe Mutombo?

It is because Russell had 11 championships.. a "team stat"? How much does that really tell me about him as individual player?

9 of Bill Russell's teammates had 5 or more NBA Championships. Does that make them all-time greats too?

And you bash his teammates for shooting below 40%, when Russell @ the Center position, shot only 44% for his career. With everyone shooting so inaccurately, that likely explains why rebounds were so inflated.

Part of the "shooting inaccurately" is also the fact that rims back then had nowhere near the give that they do now. Actually, for over 30 years there was no give at all. If you've ever shot on both a current NBA rim and an outdoor no-flex rim, you realize what a massive difference that can make over the course of a season.