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View Full Version : What is the deal with Josh Smith?



JasonJohnHorn
12-15-2014, 10:18 PM
This guy used to shoot over .500 from the floor. Last year his rebounds and assists were down, and though they are back up this year, his percentage is in the basement.

And I mean, .265 from behind the arc? Why is he even taking these shots? And why have his coaches not benched him whenever he takes them? Ego aside, you just have to realize at a certain point in your career that it is a shot you are not good at.

Why is his FG% so awful now, and how is he allowed to keep taking awful shots?

NYJ - NYY
12-15-2014, 10:18 PM
He's a ****in moron

DemarDerozan
12-15-2014, 10:47 PM
He's a ****in moron

This. I used to not believe it and thought people were just being rude when they said he was kind of slow...

But after reading some of his interviews and watching him play more consistently... Yeah the guy is kind of slow. He doesn't have a high iq. Just freakishly athletic.

Trwood12
12-15-2014, 10:55 PM
He loves to shoot the three for some reason

Cracka2HI!
12-15-2014, 10:59 PM
He's a role player. He shouldn't be shooting 3's or taking a lot of shots. Like when he was a good player. I used to love this guys game but he's turned into one of the worst contracts ever.

JV35
12-15-2014, 11:01 PM
Horrible contract. Over-rated. Over-paid.

Outside of that, nothing.

flea
12-15-2014, 11:02 PM
He's a ****in moron

Basically yeah, he's a very low IQ player whose athleticism is dwindling. He was always a tweener, but you can be a tweener if you're good enough on one side of the floor to justify your presence on the other. Smith was actually sort of unique in this respect, in that he never really excelled on either side of the floor and yet remained good enough to play on both sides.

Defensively he was always a liability. People who didn't watch him much would see highlights and think he's good, or they'd look at his box score stats and think he was good, but he wasn't. He was capable of making the athletic play a few times a game but that's it. He was always too small to really bang with bigger PFs, and would get abused on the glass. He could be okay against SFs some, but he played next to another tweener when I watched him (M. Williams). He was never a stopper or anything, and he wasn't tasked with much on that end.

Offensively, though, is where he made his reputation. Poor shot selection, lack of effort, and lack of aggressiveness. He was quick enough to go past most PFs, like Lebron, but he rarely sustained any effort for that. Now he's the same but losing athleticism and relying on what was always a below average jumper more. It's a rough life for those guys. All tweeners in the NBA have it rough because they almost always rely on athleticism to keep them in NBA rotations. When it goes, so does their usefulness. Danny Granger, Caron Butler, Antawn Jamison, Rashard Lewis, Lamar Odom, etc. Some of those guys were even pretty solid at some things that didn't require athleticism, but their other skills had deteriorated so much that who cares if Jamison can hit an open 3.

This is why I'm not high on Lebron's decline stage. He's clearly better than all those other guys and will be a starter probably until he quits, but I mean his decline as compared to other HOFers he compares to. Barkley, Pierce, MJ, and Malone all had good declines because of how skilled they were. Lebron isn't a great rebounder, shooter, or post presence. He's not a great defender against bigs, which is what he'll be tasked with. Basically he'll be a poor man's Pierce without a jumper, and that sounds kind of ugly to me. He does have his passing and IQ, but so does Lamar Odom and he's doing crack now (I think).

And as for a guy like Westbrook? Please. I don't see him being worth much after age 28 or 29. Without athleticism what is he? A turnover prone PG with mediocre passing, no reliable jumpshot, a low IQ and without the requisite athleticism for defending the way he does. Sounds like an unholy combination of past-prime Starbury and Agent Zero - or in other words, an MVP in the Chinese league.

canzano55
12-15-2014, 11:12 PM
Basically yeah, he's a very low IQ player whose athleticism is dwindling. He was always a tweener, but you can be a tweener if you're good enough on one side of the floor to justify your presence on the other. Smith was actually sort of unique in this respect, in that he never really excelled on either side of the floor and yet remained good enough to play on both sides.

Defensively he was always a liability. People who didn't watch him much would see highlights and think he's good, or they'd look at his box score stats and think he was good, but he wasn't. He was capable of making the athletic play a few times a game but that's it. He was always too small to really bang with bigger PFs, and would get abused on the glass. He could be okay against SFs some, but he played next to another tweener when I watched him (M. Williams). He was never a stopper or anything, and he wasn't tasked with much on that end.

Offensively, though, is where he made his reputation. Poor shot selection, lack of effort, and lack of aggressiveness. He was quick enough to go past most PFs, like Lebron, but he rarely sustained any effort for that. Now he's the same but losing athleticism and relying on what was always a below average jumper more. It's a rough life for those guys. All tweeners in the NBA have it rough because they almost always rely on athleticism to keep them in NBA rotations. When it goes, so does their usefulness. Danny Granger, Caron Butler, Antawn Jamison, Rashard Lewis, Lamar Odom, etc. Some of those guys were even pretty solid at some things that didn't require athleticism, but their other skills had deteriorated so much that who cares if Jamison can hit an open 3.

This is why I'm not high on Lebron's decline stage. He's clearly better than all those other guys and will be a starter probably until he quits, but I mean his decline as compared to other HOFers he compares to. Barkley, Pierce, MJ, and Malone all had good declines because of how skilled they were. Lebron isn't a great rebounder, shooter, or post presence. He's not a great defender against bigs, which is what he'll be tasked with. Basically he'll be a poor man's Pierce without a jumper, and that sounds kind of ugly to me. He does have his passing and IQ, but so does Lamar Odom and he's doing crack now (I think).

And as for a guy like Westbrook? Please. I don't see him being worth much after age 28 or 29. Without athleticism what is he? A turnover prone PG with mediocre passing, no reliable jumpshot, a low IQ and without the requisite athleticism for defending the way he does. Sounds like an unholy combination of past-prime Starbury and Agent Zero - or in other words, an MVP in the Chinese league.Great write up - I agree with all of it.

Although I've always hated Kobe as a rival and especially because he's made my life difficult for so many years - I begrudgingly respect him even more as he gets older when you think about the amount of time he spent on his skillset making him an extremely useful player well in to his late thirties.

You could say the same about Nash if it wasn't for his back injuries.

DemarDerozan
12-15-2014, 11:18 PM
In before the Lebronphiles destroy the thread.

Cracka2HI!
12-15-2014, 11:54 PM
The Clippers are playing Detroit right now. Every time Smith has the ball I can tell it's going up and he's gonna miss.

BKdoubleStacker
12-16-2014, 02:25 AM
He was a beast for ATL. Maybe he needs a change of scenery. He is a low iq player though.

Deception
12-16-2014, 04:02 AM
I think JasonJohnHorn averages more threads per day than Josh Smith averages 3's per game

Chronz
12-16-2014, 04:37 AM
Dont expect him to take less 3's, thats IS the game now. You cant always get high% looks, especially as a wing. Hes playing the 3 with traditional lineups, thats not gonna help his game. Detroit was ALWAYS a bad fit. Players should know what they're getting into.

JasonJohnHorn
12-16-2014, 05:42 PM
Basically yeah, he's a very low IQ player whose athleticism is dwindling. He was always a tweener, but you can be a tweener if you're good enough on one side of the floor to justify your presence on the other. Smith was actually sort of unique in this respect, in that he never really excelled on either side of the floor and yet remained good enough to play on both sides.

Defensively he was always a liability. People who didn't watch him much would see highlights and think he's good, or they'd look at his box score stats and think he was good, but he wasn't. He was capable of making the athletic play a few times a game but that's it. He was always too small to really bang with bigger PFs, and would get abused on the glass. He could be okay against SFs some, but he played next to another tweener when I watched him (M. Williams). He was never a stopper or anything, and he wasn't tasked with much on that end.

Offensively, though, is where he made his reputation. Poor shot selection, lack of effort, and lack of aggressiveness. He was quick enough to go past most PFs, like Lebron, but he rarely sustained any effort for that. Now he's the same but losing athleticism and relying on what was always a below average jumper more. It's a rough life for those guys. All tweeners in the NBA have it rough because they almost always rely on athleticism to keep them in NBA rotations. When it goes, so does their usefulness. Danny Granger, Caron Butler, Antawn Jamison, Rashard Lewis, Lamar Odom, etc. Some of those guys were even pretty solid at some things that didn't require athleticism, but their other skills had deteriorated so much that who cares if Jamison can hit an open 3.

This is why I'm not high on Lebron's decline stage. He's clearly better than all those other guys and will be a starter probably until he quits, but I mean his decline as compared to other HOFers he compares to. Barkley, Pierce, MJ, and Malone all had good declines because of how skilled they were. Lebron isn't a great rebounder, shooter, or post presence. He's not a great defender against bigs, which is what he'll be tasked with. Basically he'll be a poor man's Pierce without a jumper, and that sounds kind of ugly to me. He does have his passing and IQ, but so does Lamar Odom and he's doing crack now (I think).

And as for a guy like Westbrook? Please. I don't see him being worth much after age 28 or 29. Without athleticism what is he? A turnover prone PG with mediocre passing, no reliable jumpshot, a low IQ and without the requisite athleticism for defending the way he does. Sounds like an unholy combination of past-prime Starbury and Agent Zero - or in other words, an MVP in the Chinese league.

Great post! Thanks for sharing!

JasonJohnHorn
12-16-2014, 05:42 PM
In before the Lebronphiles destroy the thread.

Why would Lebronphiles destroy this thread?

JasonJohnHorn
12-16-2014, 05:44 PM
I think JasonJohnHorn averages more threads per day than Josh Smith averages 3's per game


Yes, but the conversation rate is significant high. He averages 2.3 pages per post, and his edits-to-replies ration is among the best in the forum! Oh... wait... that is actually one of the worst in the forums.

Howard_Zinn
12-16-2014, 05:51 PM
He's a third or fourth option and in Detroit he's being asked to be the 1st option.

GiantsSwaGG
12-16-2014, 05:54 PM
He's a third or fourth option and in Detroit he's being asked to be the 1st option.

This

I can't tell if he's the SF, SG or PF he's always behind the arc

Kaner
12-16-2014, 06:06 PM
Basically yeah, he's a very low IQ player whose athleticism is dwindling. He was always a tweener, but you can be a tweener if you're good enough on one side of the floor to justify your presence on the other. Smith was actually sort of unique in this respect, in that he never really excelled on either side of the floor and yet remained good enough to play on both sides.

Defensively he was always a liability. People who didn't watch him much would see highlights and think he's good, or they'd look at his box score stats and think he was good, but he wasn't. He was capable of making the athletic play a few times a game but that's it. He was always too small to really bang with bigger PFs, and would get abused on the glass. He could be okay against SFs some, but he played next to another tweener when I watched him (M. Williams). He was never a stopper or anything, and he wasn't tasked with much on that end.

This I couldn't disagree with more, even now with his embarrassing decline offensively he's still one of the best defensive power forwards in the league. He's a defensive play maker obviously but he's also arguably been the best perimeter defender at power forward for years, I remember he used to always guard Lebron very well in the playoffs.

Tony_Starks
12-16-2014, 06:18 PM
He's the new Iggy. Playing on mediocre to garbage teams and people are going to hate on him. Put on a good team that's missing a piece and all the sudden its like "what's got into Josh Smith!"

flea
12-16-2014, 06:58 PM
This I couldn't disagree with more, even now with his embarrassing decline offensively he's still one of the best defensive power forwards in the league. He's a defensive play maker obviously but he's also arguably been the best perimeter defender at power forward for years, I remember he used to always guard Lebron very well in the playoffs.

Not a chance. He is a bad team defender and was rarely asked to defend the opposing team's best forward when I watched him (that was Williams's gig). He's not as bad against smaller forwards but he gets abused against big ones, and there aren't many forwards in the league that he doesn't give up either size or quickness to. Maybe it's unfair because he was primarily defending bigger PFs but he didn't have the shooting for the Smith to SF experiment to work (as Detroit continue to finds out). But that's the hallmark of a tweener. It's only the rare ones like Marion who are so good on one end that their tweener status is actually a benefit, rather than a burden.

And as for playing Lebron well in the 09 playoffs, all he let Lebron do was go for 34/8/6 with 1.8 turnovers on 56% FG and 48% from 3 on the way to being swept. And that was before Lebron was putting up that kind of efficiency normally.

flea
12-16-2014, 07:02 PM
I know his +/- stats are good in Detroit, but he is basically the only person on that team who isn't awful defensively. And the team as a whole is very bad (25th). Someone is going to be a plus when they come on the floor when you play next to Jennings, Singler, Monroe, etc. And no, Drummond is not any kind of defensive whiz at this point (his +/- stats bare this out, and I bet astute Pistons fans would back me up).

Munkeysuit
12-16-2014, 07:43 PM
Thats the thing! who the hell is Josh Smith?

M.I.A.
12-16-2014, 07:50 PM
Thats the thing! who the hell is Josh Smith?

He's a bum that we gave to the Pistons. Because he plays selfish basketball and we didn't want him in Atlanta anymore.

Kaner
12-16-2014, 08:18 PM
Not a chance. He is a bad team defender and was rarely asked to defend the opposing team's best forward when I watched him (that was Williams's gig). He's not as bad against smaller forwards but he gets abused against big ones, and there aren't many forwards in the league that he doesn't give up either size or quickness to. Maybe it's unfair because he was primarily defending bigger PFs but he didn't have the shooting for the Smith to SF experiment to work (as Detroit continue to finds out). But that's the hallmark of a tweener. It's only the rare ones like Marion who are so good on one end that their tweener status is actually a benefit, rather than a burden.

Well I guess that's that :rolleyes:. I don't know how we're going to argue this one it's defense and we're both seeing something different apparently buuuut, you're wrong. He's a great man defender, his wingspan gives him the length to bother shots easily and his timing and positioning have always been really good it's probably what he's best at.


And as for playing Lebron well in the 09 playoffs, all he let Lebron do was go for 34/8/6 with 1.8 turnovers on 56% FG and 48% from 3 on the way to being swept. And that was before Lebron was putting up that kind of efficiency normally.

It was Williams guarding him for most of that series, but I remember whenever they'd switch Smith did a really good job bothering him, it's not a part of my argument just an observation that has stuck with me.


I know his +/- stats are good in Detroit, but he is basically the only person on that team who isn't awful defensively. And the team as a whole is very bad (25th). Someone is going to be a plus when they come on the floor when you play next to Jennings, Singler, Monroe, etc. And no, Drummond is not any kind of defensive whiz at this point (his +/- stats bare this out, and I bet astute Pistons fans would back me up).

I don't know why you specified Detroit like it's some outlier. His +/- defensive numbers have been great his entire career which is why his career DBPM is 8th among active players right. He's been among league leaders in the stat almost every year, including with some solid defensive atlanta teams. But his +/- stats weren't the only stats that showed a good defender, his synergy stats were good too.

Overall:
0.98 PPP

Iso:
0.96 PPP

P&R Ball Handler:
0.79

Post ups:
0.79 (Elite)

P&R Man:
0.83

Spot Up:
1.02

Off Screen:
1.01

Hand Off:
0.63

Almost every stat that attempts to quantify defensive impact suggests that Josh Smith is at least an above average defender.

flea
12-16-2014, 08:39 PM
Eh I mean I can see him being better than maybe I was conveying, but I don't think he's anything special. When I was watching him Williams would usually take the SFs so maybe Smith is decent at smaller forwards but I never saw him defending them much. And if there was a tough big it would be Horford tasked with checking him, not Smith. I think some those Synergy stats can be attributed to the Bird/Harden effect: when you're defending one of the worst players on the floor you should be holding them to low PPP and such because you're being hidden. Either way he's only getting worse.

Chronz
12-17-2014, 12:38 AM
Kaner and flea doing mad work. Another bus trip saved

ChiFanMem
12-18-2014, 03:16 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZhrwS5W2Xk

Sactown
12-18-2014, 03:22 PM
Yeah, unfortunately I have a feeling he lands on the Kings... I'm definitely not a fan of this, but I just get that feeling they'll just do a salary dump on us for garbage

LA_Raiders
12-18-2014, 10:52 PM
Who?

Blink
12-18-2014, 11:41 PM
I know his +/- stats are good in Detroit, but he is basically the only person on that team who isn't awful defensively. And the team as a whole is very bad (25th). Someone is going to be a plus when they come on the floor when you play next to Jennings, Singler, Monroe, etc. And no, Drummond is not any kind of defensive whiz at this point (his +/- stats bare this out, and I bet astute Pistons fans would back me up).

I agree. People think because Drummond gets a ridiculous athletic block every once on awhile it makes him a better defender.

I personally think Drummond should guard the stretch 4's over Monroe. Monroe stays home and guards the C and we can hide him defensively.

Smith is easily our best perimeter defender aside from KCP. It's just his contract sucks. He could help a contending team being the 4th option while being asked to guard opposing teams stretch 4's.

Baltoro
12-19-2014, 02:19 PM
Good defender. Bad shooter, bad decision maker, more importantly bad situation. The 3 big lineup in Detroit isn't doing a damn bit of good for anyone involved.

He's got gas left in the tank and can be of value for a few teams. He just needs to come to terms with where he is in his career and focus on his strengths. But I think that might be asking too much of him.