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JordansBulls
12-12-2014, 10:06 PM
Showed it today on ESPN at the half

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Duncan
7. Wilt
8. Kobe
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem/Oscar

Disagreements????

JV35
12-12-2014, 10:11 PM
Showed it today on ESPN at the half

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Duncan
7. Wilt
8. Kobe
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem/Oscar

Disagreements????
Looks about right. Certainly no glaring omissions.

ThuglifeJ
12-12-2014, 10:17 PM
Yes, minus bill as #2

More-Than-Most
12-12-2014, 10:32 PM
lebron is already better than kobe

mngopher35
12-12-2014, 10:33 PM
Bill at #2 is the biggest issue I would have

InRoseWeTrust
12-12-2014, 10:34 PM
I rate Hakeem much, much higher than that.

BKdoubleStacker
12-12-2014, 10:37 PM
bill russell shouldnt even be in the top 10

effen5
12-12-2014, 10:39 PM
Hakeem should be higher

c.c.
12-12-2014, 11:35 PM
LeBron should be on there and Hakeem should be higher

Taylorjt33
12-13-2014, 12:21 AM
Bill Russell and Shaq are on the list because of championship win. Bill should be lower and Shaq should be replaced by LeBron

mngopher35
12-13-2014, 12:43 AM
Bill Russell and Shaq are on the list because of championship win. Bill should be lower and Shaq should be replaced by LeBron

I agree on bill and lebron has an argument for being added in there somewhere.

If anything though shaq should be higher on the list. His championships (first three at least) came because he was arguably the most dominant player the nba has seen. The way defenses collapsed and swarmed on him is probably unmatched, tons of attention at all times. Definitely a top 10 player, I have him closer to 5.

HandsOnTheWheel
12-13-2014, 12:46 AM
Tim ahead of wilt?

Hotone1401
12-13-2014, 01:18 AM
lebron is already better than kobe

It's "Jalen's top 10", not yours.

More-Than-Most
12-13-2014, 01:19 AM
It's "Jalen's top 10", not yours.

then he is wrong.

JasonJohnHorn
12-13-2014, 01:20 AM
It's "Jalen's top 10", not yours.

Yeah, um.... but the OP was asking people if they disagreed. So...

Arch Stanton
12-13-2014, 01:22 AM
Why isn't Jimmy Butler on this list? He shuts down LeBron!!!!

ghettosean
12-13-2014, 01:24 AM
Looks about right though Hakeem should be higher... Bird #5 most of PSD wouldn't even have him in a top 10 which makes me laugh everytime.

bgdreton
12-13-2014, 01:26 AM
It looks great to me. Maybe Bill might be a bit high but all the players in his top 10 should be there.

JasonJohnHorn
12-13-2014, 01:27 AM
Jordan is the popular choice, he's not mine. Jordan is one of the best ever, obviously, so I won't take issue with that, but Kobe is WAY to high.

I got no problem with Russell being that high, but to me, Wilt should either be right before or right after Bill, just like Bird and Magic should always be listed side by side.

I take Duncan and Hakeem over Kareem, but I love Kareem, so I won't argue with how high he is placed.

That said, I read an article that essentially said: Russell won the championships, Wilt set the records, Kareem broke them, and they all said the Big O was the best player they ever played agaisnst with. You have a list that has those four at the top, I'm ok with it. Having The Big O and Hakeem at 10th behind Kobe just seems like a glaring mistake.

As for Shaq... he was dominant.... but I'd take D-Rob over him if you gave me both of them at the age of 20. D-Rob was a better defender, and much more diverse scorer. If officials called the game like they are supposed to, Shaq would have committed about 1500-2000 more offensive fouls on his career than what he was called for easily.


1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Duncan
7. Wilt
8. Kobe
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem/Oscar

Hotone1401
12-13-2014, 01:30 AM
then he is wrong.

Then everybody's wrong because they don't agree with you right?

LA_Raiders
12-13-2014, 01:31 AM
Looks like jalen is still sore from the 81pts game

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-13-2014, 01:46 AM
lebron is already better than kobe

Negatory

mngopher35
12-13-2014, 01:53 AM
Looks like jalen is still sore from the 81pts game

? He has him above shaq Hakeem Oscar and lebron. Now Kobe is definitely in this elite level of players but what makes you say that? He is giving him a lot of respect here.

More-Than-Most
12-13-2014, 04:47 AM
Then everybody's wrong because they don't agree with you right?

Laker fans dont agree... Lebron is by far the better all around player... Kobe is a better scorer and has had much much better teams... James is better

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-13-2014, 05:41 AM
Then everybody's wrong because they don't agree with you right?

Laker fans dont agree... Lebron is by far the better all around player... Kobe is a better scorer and has had much much better teams... James is better

Lmao. Lebron Ruined basketball by creating a super team in the weakest conference in NBA history...... Twice.

jerellh528
12-13-2014, 06:03 AM
Decent list actually.

Mine is :
1.Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Kobe
5. Shaq
6. Magic
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. Russell

MonroeFAN
12-13-2014, 09:27 AM
Bill Russell and Shaq are on the list because of championship win. Bill should be lower and Shaq should be replaced by LeBron

Wat?

I agree Bron should be on here, but are you just a blind Shaq hater?

Longhornfan1234
12-13-2014, 10:33 AM
Duncan and Russell are not top 10 players in my book. I don't use team success and accolades. I judge just individual talent. There's about 15-20 player more individually talented than Duncan and Russell.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-13-2014, 01:19 PM
Decent list actually.

Mine is :
1.Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Kobe
5. Shaq
6. Magic
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. Russell


Good list. I'd have Duncan two spots higher tho.

Shammyguy3
12-13-2014, 02:07 PM
He's got the right guys on the list, everyone's order will vary of course. Lebron will get on this list eventually, whether you bump out Bird, Kobe, Oscar, Russell, whomever he'll have to be on it once he retires.

mngopher35
12-13-2014, 02:14 PM
Decent list actually.

Mine is :
1.Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Kobe
5. Shaq
6. Magic
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. Russell


Good list. I'd have Duncan two spots higher tho.

Move up Hakeem with him and I like the list more than jalen. I disagree about a certain player but outside of that I think this list is better really. Mj Kareem wilt are my top 3 too.

nickdymez
12-13-2014, 02:16 PM
then he is wrong.

No, you are...

SLY WILLIAMS
12-13-2014, 02:24 PM
Showed it today on ESPN at the half

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Duncan
7. Wilt
8. Kobe
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem/Oscar

Disagreements????

If I used his 10/11 picks I would change the order.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Bird
4. Wilt
5. Shaq
6. Duncan
7. Kobe
8. Magic
9. Hakeem
10. Bill Russell/Oscar

Chronz
12-13-2014, 02:32 PM
Jordan is the popular choice, he's not mine. Jordan is one of the best ever, obviously, so I won't take issue with that, but Kobe is WAY to high.

I got no problem with Russell being that high, but to me, Wilt should either be right before or right after Bill, just like Bird and Magic should always be listed side by side.

I take Duncan and Hakeem over Kareem, but I love Kareem, so I won't argue with how high he is placed.

That said, I read an article that essentially said: Russell won the championships, Wilt set the records, Kareem broke them, and they all said the Big O was the best player they ever played agaisnst with. You have a list that has those four at the top, I'm ok with it. Having The Big O and Hakeem at 10th behind Kobe just seems like a glaring mistake.

As for Shaq... he was dominant.... but I'd take D-Rob over him if you gave me both of them at the age of 20. D-Rob was a better defender, and much more diverse scorer. If officials called the game like they are supposed to, Shaq would have committed about 1500-2000 more offensive fouls on his career than what he was called for easily.


1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Duncan
7. Wilt
8. Kobe
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem/Oscar
D-Rob's face-up based game dwindled come playoffs, Shaq's arose.

If the game was called how it was suppose to, Shaq would be even more unstoppable than he already was.

IBleedPurple
12-13-2014, 03:39 PM
Why isn't Jimmy Butler on this list? He shuts down LeBron!!!!Soon as I seen Jim...thought we'd have a cry for Jimmer lol.

smith&wesson
12-13-2014, 04:11 PM
Lebron is better than Bird for sure. should be in everyones top 10.

JWO35
12-13-2014, 04:26 PM
It shouldn't even be a Top 10 of All Time...it should just be the "Top 10 players after LeBron"

Tony_Starks
12-13-2014, 04:53 PM
Magic is number one on my list but other than that Jalens list is decent..

bgdreton
12-13-2014, 05:06 PM
Lebron is better than Bird for sure. should be in everyones top 10.

Crazy!

bgdreton
12-13-2014, 05:19 PM
It shouldn't even be a Top 10 of All Time...it should just be the "Top 10 players after LeBron"

That ranking would start at number 11 or so on down.

Hawkeye15
12-13-2014, 09:04 PM
Showed it today on ESPN at the half

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Duncan
7. Wilt
8. Kobe
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem/Oscar

Disagreements????

Russell way too high, Wilt way too low, I prefer Hakeem/Shaq ahead of Kobe, Bird I could live with being behind Kobe. And obviously LeBron should be in there, around 7-9 right now and climbing

Hawkeye15
12-13-2014, 09:08 PM
I still like tier systems

mine:

1- Jordan
2- Kareem, Wilt
3- Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Magic
4- LeBron, Kobe, Bird

argue among the tiers all you want, nobody moves up a tier, or down a tier for me. Obviously LeBron is 30 with plenty of career ahead of him, so he easily enters tier 3 by career end, and MAYBE tier 2 for me.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-13-2014, 09:11 PM
Switch Russell and Lebron and I won't complain (though I'd switch a few guys 1 spots up/down.

numba1CHANGsta
12-13-2014, 09:54 PM
Are we seriously going to make a thread about every single person's top 10? its getting annoying, everyone has their own opinion and no ones going to agree with any of them

dnl123
12-13-2014, 10:13 PM
I still like tier systems

mine:

1- Jordan
2- Kareem, Wilt
3- Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Magic
4- LeBron, Kobe, Bird

argue among the tiers all you want, nobody moves up a tier, or down a tier for me. Obviously LeBron is 30 with plenty of career ahead of him, so he easily enters tier 3 by career end, and MAYBE tier 2 for me.

Just wondering Hawk, what tier is Bill Russell in to you? I'd put him in tier 2 or 3 personally. I'm 100% with you on Lebron.

Sadds The Gr8
12-14-2014, 12:20 AM
Don't 100% agree with it but pretty good list.

Hawkeye15
12-14-2014, 03:42 AM
Just wondering Hawk, what tier is Bill Russell in to you? I'd put him in tier 2 or 3 personally. I'm 100% with you on Lebron.

Russell is in tier 5, with Oscar, West, Dr J, Barkley, and Drob

PurpleLynch
12-14-2014, 06:51 PM
Eh,I'm done with rankings. Too many variables in ranking the top 10 of all time or ranking in general(especially the top 10 of all time).
I just say that imo Russell is too high,Wilt is too low,Shaq also too low...but overall not a bad ranking.

Chronz
12-15-2014, 02:08 AM
Eh,I'm done with rankings. Too many variables in ranking the top 10 of all time or ranking in general(especially the top 10 of all time).
I just say that imo Russell is too high,Wilt is too low,Shaq also too low...but overall not a bad ranking.

good post.

Sean Moore
12-15-2014, 02:59 AM
Jordan is the popular choice, he's not mine. Jordan is one of the best ever, obviously, so I won't take issue with that, but Kobe is WAY to high.

I got no problem with Russell being that high, but to me, Wilt should either be right before or right after Bill, just like Bird and Magic should always be listed side by side.

I take Duncan and Hakeem over Kareem, but I love Kareem, so I won't argue with how high he is placed.

That said, I read an article that essentially said: Russell won the championships, Wilt set the records, Kareem broke them, and they all said the Big O was the best player they ever played agaisnst with. You have a list that has those four at the top, I'm ok with it. Having The Big O and Hakeem at 10th behind Kobe just seems like a glaring mistake.

As for Shaq... he was dominant.... but I'd take D-Rob over him if you gave me both of them at the age of 20. D-Rob was a better defender, and much more diverse scorer. If officials called the game like they are supposed to, Shaq would have committed about 1500-2000 more offensive fouls on his career than what he was called for easily.


1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Duncan
7. Wilt
8. Kobe
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem/Oscar

I basically disagree with everything you said.

Sean Moore
12-15-2014, 03:03 AM
You guys really underrate Larry Legend.

Sean Moore
12-15-2014, 03:15 AM
Duncan and Russell are not top 10 players in my book. I don't use team success and accolades. I judge just individual talent. There's about 15-20 player more individually talented than Duncan and Russell.

You may have a case for Russell, but I really don't know how you could possibly say that Duncan is not a great individual talent. He is still putting up great per minute value even at age 38 and is even still a top player in this league. I really don't get how you can make this claim. Also, Russell was great in terms of leadership and impact. Perhaps one of the best to ever lace em up. They both deserve to be on any top ten list.

Baltoro
12-15-2014, 03:36 AM
I rate Hakeem much, much higher than that.

Hakeem is tragically underrated.

Baltoro
12-15-2014, 03:40 AM
List looks pretty good. Don't want to get into semantics too much but I think Lebron should be on that list somewhere.

Shlumpledink
12-15-2014, 05:00 AM
Swap bill and Hakeem.

JJ_JKidd
12-15-2014, 05:28 AM
Wheres James Beard Harden?........

SF8
12-15-2014, 05:39 AM
I know how important defense is but there's no ********ing way that a guy who averaged 15 pts per game is top 5.

PurpleLynch
12-15-2014, 07:45 AM
I know how important defense is but there's no ********ing way that a guy who averaged 15 pts per game is top 5.

Have you seen his career rebounding per game? Anyway,I agree that Russell should be lower.

kantarok
12-15-2014, 08:40 AM
Top 10 goes like this:
Michael Jordan
Lebron
Shaquille O'neal
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Magic
Kobe Bryant
Chris Paul
Tmac
Kevin Durant

most talented players that would change a team today in this nba and any nba

Andrew32
12-15-2014, 09:38 AM
Showed it today on ESPN at the half

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Duncan
7. Wilt
8. Kobe
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem/Oscar

Disagreements????

Don't like his list very much.
Having Kobe above Shaq is never justifiable and Bird/Duncan shouldn't be over him either.

Hakeem is also not high enough.
He is on that Duncan level imo which should place him above Kobe, Wilt & Bird imo.

The rest of the list is fine though I would also slot Wilt slightly lower and below Shaq since he was the lesser playoff/Finals performer of the two and has weaker longevity.

PurpleLynch
12-15-2014, 02:44 PM
good post.

Thanks man,respect for your sig anyway :)

YAALREADYKNO
12-15-2014, 03:09 PM
Russell should not be #2. I'm taking kareem, shaq, wilt, and hakeem before I'm taking Russell. Lebron belongs in the top 10 as well. Can't name too many players that are better than him all time

YAALREADYKNO
12-15-2014, 03:29 PM
Duncan and Russell are not top 10 players in my book. I don't use team success and accolades. I judge just individual talent. There's about 15-20 player more individually talented than Duncan and Russell.

then KG and LeBron should be your in your top 5 if you just base if off individual talent smh

YAALREADYKNO
12-15-2014, 03:32 PM
? He has him above shaq Hakeem Oscar and lebron. Now Kobe is definitely in this elite level of players but what makes you say that? He is giving him a lot of respect here.

but kobe is better than Oscar and you can make a case for hakeem and shaq

mngopher35
12-15-2014, 04:41 PM
but kobe is better than Oscar and you can make a case for hakeem and shaq

I think there is a stronger case for shaq and Hakeem yet he is ranked ahead of them here. I think if you call someone butt hurt for ranking Kobe 8th you are just being a fanboy yourself.

If you want to make your case as to why it is such a mistake to have Kobe there feel free but I don't think jalen is "butt hurt" based on these rankings. If he was he simply could leave Kobe off completely.

nickdymez
12-15-2014, 05:00 PM
Russell should not be #2. I'm taking kareem, shaq, wilt, and hakeem before I'm taking Russell. Lebron belongs in the top 10 as well. Can't name too many players that are better than him all time

I can name 10

jmaest
12-15-2014, 05:01 PM
I love how some of you are saying Russell is too high or Lebron > Bird or some other nonsense. Most of you who are commenting have never seen any of these players play. Most of you are not taking into account the eras in which these players played. Statistics are skewed towards systems.

Tim Duncan, for example, could easily be a 30/12 player BUT that's not the system he plays in. So he gets penalized in historical comparisons when he's easily the most perfectly fundamental player to play the PF position in history.

I digress. Bill Russell played & coached. He defended an unstoppable force and stopped him. The offense of his Celtics flowed through him. In those days scoring the ball didn't make you "great". It made you a scorer. Jalen Rose is clearly schooled in the history of the games and aligning the things that matter aside from the stat sheet.

IMO there's a "top 5" that's essentially unbreakable: Jordan, Russell, Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, & Hakeem. There are no players playing today, or who've played in the last 20 years, who compares to that group.

After that group there's Bird, Chamberlain, & Kareem. That would be my top 8 leaving 2 spots for other players that would round out a "top 10". I would also suggest that these 3 particular players also the most likely to be bumped by up & coming players.

I think I would make Tim Duncan the 9th player on my list leaving only one other player. That player could be anyone really: Kobe, Stockton, Isaiah, Dr. J, Gervin, Lebron, Barkley, etc.

My opinion doesn't come from media hype or fandom. I've seen all of these players play either live or through film. I consider their contemporaries and the style of play of their era. I know I'll get a lot of bashing from the Kobe fanatics. Sorry I prefer to be rationale when it comes to evaluating Kobe and he has too many knocks that keep him out of that group, IMO. He could make the top 10 but guys who are coming up may knock him right out. Lebron, Durant, for example.

jmaest
12-15-2014, 05:03 PM
but kobe is better than Oscar and you can make a case for hakeem and shaq

Based on what is Kobe better than Oscar? Oscar is considered by many players the GOAT. Kobe's claim to fame is his ability to emulate the other guy in the GOAT conversation. Oscar's numbers are staggering AND unlike Kobe Oscar actually played in an era where defenses were allowed to impose their physicality on the offensive player.

It may be easy to say "Kobe is better than Oscar" but it's impossible to prove. The numbers, by the way, support Oscar.

Hawkeye15
12-15-2014, 05:25 PM
but kobe is better than Oscar and you can make a case for hakeem and shaq

you can't really make a case for Kobe being better than Shaq or Dream. Oscar, for sure.

jmaest
12-15-2014, 05:37 PM
you can't really make a case for Kobe being better than Shaq or Dream. Oscar, for sure.

One player averaged 26PPG/10A/8R per game. That player shot 49% from the field, was an unselfish basketball player, and was a good defender, and played in a very physical era.

The other player averaged 26PPG/5A/5R per game. But that player shot only 45% from the field. He was a very selfish basketball player--taking more shots than any other player in history. He was a good defender as well BUT his era wasn't nearly as physical.

YAALREADYKNO
12-15-2014, 06:10 PM
LMAO I cant believe some of yall are saying that Oscar is better than kobe smh

YAALREADYKNO
12-15-2014, 06:12 PM
I think there is a stronger case for shaq and Hakeem yet he is ranked ahead of them here. I think if you call someone butt hurt for ranking Kobe 8th you are just being a fanboy yourself.

If you want to make your case as to why it is such a mistake to have Kobe there feel free but I don't think jalen is "butt hurt" based on these rankings. If he was he simply could leave Kobe off completely.

I never called jalen rose butt hurt tho WTF?

Hawkeye15
12-15-2014, 06:14 PM
One player averaged 26PPG/10A/8R per game. That player shot 49% from the field, was an unselfish basketball player, and was a good defender, and played in a very physical era.

The other player averaged 26PPG/5A/5R per game. But that player shot only 45% from the field. He was a very selfish basketball player--taking more shots than any other player in history. He was a good defender as well BUT his era wasn't nearly as physical.

account for pace when listing stats from way back then. The defenses of the past 30 years have gotten better and better. People confuse physicality with better defense for some reason. Oscar also unfortunately didn't step up his game come playoff time outside 3 years that I can remember, and his Cincy teams really weren't that successful with him as a #1 option come playoff time. It took him until age 32 when KAJ was at his peak to have success. Not holding that too much against him, every star needs help. But he played in an era with inflated baseline stats. His teams played anywhere from 113-122 possessions per game, and he sat maybe 3-5 mpg. Kobe, for instance, in 08-9' for instance, played on a team with 94 possessions per game, and the modern coaches knew with more games, athletes needed more rest. So if you do quick algebra, Kobe's numbers are actually more impressive than Oscar's were

simple math, after breaking it down, shows on average, Oscar got 24-28 more possessions a game than Kobe did on average.

There is more than enough for your makeup on Oscar's per game stats.

YAALREADYKNO
12-15-2014, 06:15 PM
you can't really make a case for Kobe being better than Shaq or Dream. Oscar, for sure.

a lot of people have kobe over hakeem. I always thought shaq was better but some people put kobe ahead of shaq too

mngopher35
12-15-2014, 06:15 PM
I never called jalen rose butt hurt tho WTF?

The guy that my post was responding to did...

YAALREADYKNO
12-15-2014, 06:18 PM
One player averaged 26PPG/10A/8R per game. That player shot 49% from the field, was an unselfish basketball player, and was a good defender, and played in a very physical era.

The other player averaged 26PPG/5A/5R per game. But that player shot only 45% from the field. He was a very selfish basketball player--taking more shots than any other player in history. He was a good defender as well BUT his era wasn't nearly as physical.

LOL you do know kobe played in the early 2000's and Oscar played in the 1960's. Oscar was a stat sheet stuffer who couldn't win anything until kareem came and was the number 1 option. Sure Kobe won as the 2nd option behind shaq but he was clearly the 1st option when he led the lakers to 3 straight NBA FINALS appearances. Oscar over Kobe? what a joke

Hawkeye15
12-15-2014, 06:21 PM
a lot of people have kobe over hakeem. I always thought shaq was better but some people put kobe ahead of shaq too

Impact wise, it makes no sense to put Kobe over those 2.

jmaest
12-15-2014, 06:36 PM
account for pace when listing stats from way back then. The defenses of the past 30 years have gotten better and better. People confuse physicality with better defense for some reason. Oscar also unfortunately didn't step up his game come playoff time outside 3 years that I can remember, and his Cincy teams really weren't that successful with him as a #1 option come playoff time. It took him until age 32 when KAJ was at his peak to have success. Not holding that too much against him, every star needs help. But he played in an era with inflated baseline stats. His teams played anywhere from 113-122 possessions per game, and he sat maybe 3-5 mpg. Kobe, for instance, in 08-9' for instance, played on a team with 94 possessions per game, and the modern coaches knew with more games, athletes needed more rest. So if you do quick algebra, Kobe's numbers are actually more impressive than Oscar's were

simple math, after breaking it down, shows on average, Oscar got 24-28 more possessions a game than Kobe did on average.

There is more than enough for your makeup on Oscar's per game stats.

Pace Factor doesn't make your argument. Since turnovers weren't a recorded stat until 1974, there's no way to know how many possessions per game Oscar's generation saw.

In addition, your point is sorely flawed. Even you adjust for more possessions in favor of Oscar, he still took LESS shots than Kobe AND completed a HIGHER percentage to equate the same PPG average over their careers. There's no way around that. (And Oscar had no 3-point shot to help inflate his scoring prowess. Although in Kobe's case I can argue that the 3-point line is what makes him inefficient. But that's neither here nor there.) Oscar was a big time jerk to the media of his day, no question about it. But he was an unselfish ball player on the court who did more with & without the ball than Kobe does.

As for superior defenses, that's a flawed argument created by a youthful mindset to justify mediocrity. The rules were adjusted in favor of offenses in Kobe's career as opposed to Oscar's career. While Oscar may have played in the 60's/70's--and nothing like the 'Street Ball' Era of the 90's--it was still much more physically imposing than the '00's on up. Defensive 3 seconds alone opens the lane up for players of Kobe's ilk. That's not something Oscar ever had the benefit of seeing.

I don't agree that defenses are better. Very few teams are able to play an effective defensive game for 48 minutes. The Bulls can. The Spurs can. A couple of others maybe. But that's about it.

For the record, I would gladly accept a position of "Kobe > Oscar" with a valid argument to defend it. (And then just agree to disagree.) The reason I took up this debate is simply because the existing sentiment was that for some reason it's a no-brainer to say "Kobe > Oscar" and that's asinine. It's a very real & respectable conversation. No one in their right mind would say "Kobe > MJ" BUT there are many basketball historians who would say "Oscar > MJ". That's something the youth here should consider...

jmaest
12-15-2014, 06:56 PM
Impact wise, it makes no sense to put Kobe over those 2.

I agree with you on Hakeem. One can argue he revolutionized the game as much as Jordan did. Because of Hakeem there are generations of players who are 6'10 or bigger who can play like a 2 or 4.

Shaq was just a physically imposing monster. In many ways he was the last type of player of an older style of play. I think you can argue Kobe had a bigger impact on the game than Shaq did. What hurts Kobe, when debating 'impact', is that he's essentially a poor man's MJ. But I think one can still say that Kobe's impact is greater than Shaq's in the grand scheme of things.

Overall I'd take Shaq over Kobe personally. I can find another guard to shoot 45% from the field. I can never find another 7'2'' monster who plays both sides of the ball and plays well without it.

AIRMAR72
12-15-2014, 07:06 PM
Showed it today on ESPN at the half

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Duncan
7. Wilt
8. Kobe
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem/Oscar

Disagreements????lol lame haus jalen rose the guy was just a average player in the NBA, Hakeem is a top 5 player Timmy or shaq couldn't guard him and Kobe Bryant and others young guys in today's NBA all go to the DREAM for footwork technique and NONE of could keep up with DREAM or move with grace and agility like Hakeem

jmaest
12-15-2014, 07:20 PM
lol lame haus jalen rose the guy was just a average player in the NBA, Hakeem is a top 5 player Timmy or shaq couldn't guard him and Kobe Bryant and others young guys in today's NBA all go to the DREAM for footwork technique and NONE of could keep up with DREAM or move with grace and agility like Hakeem

What does his NBA career have to do with this?

I'll play along...

He was only an average player in the NBA. That's correct. And so you think his opinion is less than valid than yours? Were you a great player in the NBA that I'm not aware of?

andy2518
12-15-2014, 10:48 PM
Pace Factor doesn't make your argument. Since turnovers weren't a recorded stat until 1974, there's no way to know how many possessions per game Oscar's generation saw.

In addition, your point is sorely flawed. Even you adjust for more possessions in favor of Oscar, he still took LESS shots than Kobe AND completed a HIGHER percentage to equate the same PPG average over their careers. There's no way around that. (And Oscar had no 3-point shot to help inflate his scoring prowess. Although in Kobe's case I can argue that the 3-point line is what makes him inefficient. But that's neither here nor there.) Oscar was a big time jerk to the media of his day, no question about it. But he was an unselfish ball player on the court who did more with & without the ball than Kobe does.

As for superior defenses, that's a flawed argument created by a youthful mindset to justify mediocrity. The rules were adjusted in favor of offenses in Kobe's career as opposed to Oscar's career. While Oscar may have played in the 60's/70's--and nothing like the 'Street Ball' Era of the 90's--it was still much more physically imposing than the '00's on up. Defensive 3 seconds alone opens the lane up for players of Kobe's ilk. That's not something Oscar ever had the benefit of seeing.

I don't agree that defenses are better. Very few teams are able to play an effective defensive game for 48 minutes. The Bulls can. The Spurs can. A couple of others maybe. But that's about it.

For the record, I would gladly accept a position of "Kobe > Oscar" with a valid argument to defend it. (And then just agree to disagree.) The reason I took up this debate is simply because the existing sentiment was that for some reason it's a no-brainer to say "Kobe > Oscar" and that's asinine. It's a very real & respectable conversation. No one in their right mind would say "Kobe > MJ" BUT there are many basketball historians who would say "Oscar > MJ". That's something the youth here should consider...

He was more referring to the assists and rebounds disparity more than scoring. In regards to shot attempts, Oscar was right there with Kobe on average during their respective prime years. Their scoring was pretty much identical. From 2003 to 2010 Kobe averaged 22 FGA to score his 29 ppg. Oscar from 1964 to 1970 averaged 20.7 FGA to score his 29 ppg. Pretty much identical so I don't really see where you are getting this disparity in scoring efficiency you are referring to.

Additionally, from 1964 to 1970 Oscar shot at a TS% of .575 while Kobe from 2003 to 2010 shot a TS% of .561. Only a difference of 1.4. Factor in zone defense and lesser all around competition and I can't really see how you can say Oscar is head and shoulders above Kobe at all.

Oscar played 44.1 minutes per game while Kobe only played 39.4 during both stretches. Clearly their per minute value is not all that drastic and Oscars extra rebounds and assists per game were not more valuable. Now factor in that Kobe was effective for far longer and that if I took all their top seasons and compared them, Kobe would blow him out of the water. Oscar played for 14 seasons and Kobe is in his 19th. If I take Kobe's best 14 seasons and compare them to Oscar's career on a per possession value, then this wouldn't even be up for discussion anymore.

That's just regular season, let's not even adjust this formula to do some playoff comparisons where it would be even more lopsided in favor of Kobe. I tend to weight playoff games much higher than regular season too by the way. I would hope you agree.

MTar786
12-15-2014, 10:54 PM
i would go

1. jordan
2. kareem
3. shaq
4a. lebron (if lebrons peaks over then i hav kobe ahead. bt if lebron has a few years left in him then hes ahead)
4b. kobe
6. magic
7. duncan
8. hakeem
9. bird


PS im not going to pretend like i know wilt, bill and oscars game

andy2518
12-15-2014, 11:09 PM
I agree with you on Hakeem. One can argue he revolutionized the game as much as Jordan did. Because of Hakeem there are generations of players who are 6'10 or bigger who can play like a 2 or 4.

Shaq was just a physically imposing monster. In many ways he was the last type of player of an older style of play. I think you can argue Kobe had a bigger impact on the game than Shaq did. What hurts Kobe, when debating 'impact', is that he's essentially a poor man's MJ. But I think one can still say that Kobe's impact is greater than Shaq's in the grand scheme of things.

Overall I'd take Shaq over Kobe personally. I can find another guard to shoot 45% from the field. I can never find another 7'2'' monster who plays both sides of the ball and plays well without it.

I tend to put more value on the way a player impacted the actual games rather than how the evolved it. Coaches and trainers can evolve the game as well. Let's reserve those discussions for another topic and focus on who the actual better players were on the court. I don't care if Dream had more moves and more skills than Shaq, I only care who would be the better choice for helping their teams win more games. If Shaq does it all on dunks and baby hooks and still out performs Dream's flashier moves than that is what matters most. I can't really see how one can argue more impact and dominance in favor of Dream over Shaq.

LAcowBOMBER
12-15-2014, 11:42 PM
Jordan is the popular choice, he's not mine. Jordan is one of the best ever, obviously, so I won't take issue with that, but Kobe is WAY to high.

I got no problem with Russell being that high, but to me, Wilt should either be right before or right after Bill, just like Bird and Magic should always be listed side by side.

I take Duncan and Hakeem over Kareem, but I love Kareem, so I won't argue with how high he is placed.

That said, I read an article that essentially said: Russell won the championships, Wilt set the records, Kareem broke them, and they all said the Big O was the best player they ever played agaisnst with. You have a list that has those four at the top, I'm ok with it. Having The Big O and Hakeem at 10th behind Kobe just seems like a glaring mistake.

As for Shaq... he was dominant.... but I'd take D-Rob over him if you gave me both of them at the age of 20. D-Rob was a better defender, and much more diverse scorer. If officials called the game like they are supposed to, Shaq would have committed about 1500-2000 more offensive fouls on his career than what he was called for easily.


1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Duncan
7. Wilt
8. Kobe
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem/Oscar

A legitimate, unbiased argument could be made that Shaq was fouled on almost every possession in which he had the ball in his hands. Last time I checked, a foul is still a foul even if a guy is so strong it doesn't affect him. He was pushed and shoved in the back constantly, but he was so big he didn't go flying and he didn't flop and still made more than half his shots. Same thing goes for guys hitting his arms and not being called because it didn't affect him.

I also don't understand your argument for Kobe, none of the above mentioned players played with him so their opinions on this aren't irrelevant.

YAALREADYKNO
12-17-2014, 02:08 PM
Drob over shaq is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard

ghettosean
12-17-2014, 02:55 PM
Drob over shaq is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard

Agreed but that's what some people like to think so let them dream.

colinskik
12-17-2014, 03:17 PM
I like Duncan a lot but i dont think he belongs on an all time top 10 list.

Kashmir13579
12-17-2014, 03:19 PM
Looks like jalen is still sore from the 81pts game lol kobe fan

bcc
12-17-2014, 03:21 PM
Yes, minus bill as #2

Uh, huh. 11 NBA Championships in 13 seasons, including the last two as player-coach.
The greatest winner in the history of American team sports and no one is (or will ever be) close.
Let's put him at #11.

Hawkeye15
12-17-2014, 03:31 PM
Uh, huh. 11 NBA Championships in 13 seasons, including the last two as player-coach.
The greatest winner in the history of American team sports and no one is (or will ever be) close.
Let's put him at #11.

In an era with not many teams, and he played with how many HOF'ers? His offensive game was very lacking, and besides his team success, I can't see any justification that he is a top 20 individual player ever. But, because of his team success, and usually have him in my tier that holds the 11-15 rankings.

YAALREADYKNO
12-17-2014, 03:41 PM
In an era with not many teams, and he played with how many HOF'ers? His offensive game was very lacking, and besides his team success, I can't see any justification that he is a top 20 individual player ever. But, because of his team success, and usually have him in my tier that holds the 11-15 rankings.

I have Russell at #11 based off his team success too. I just don't get how people can put him at #2 or over hakeem in the top 10 when he played in such a weak era

kingkenny01
12-17-2014, 03:42 PM
If you ask me kobe and shaq over duncan

Sly Guy
12-17-2014, 05:25 PM
bill russell shouldnt even be in the top 10

tbh, I think he's been overrated myself.

YAALREADYKNO
12-18-2014, 01:48 PM
tbh, I think he's been overrated myself.

that's because he is

Hawkeye15
12-18-2014, 02:07 PM
If you ask me kobe and shaq over duncan

how is Kobe over Duncan? It can't be explained to me in a rational way. Duncan has as much team success, stats, dominance, was the best player in a few given years, and is the two way dominant big that always holds more impact than a wing player who might be close statistically. Really, the only non-big man better than Duncan ever in my eyes is MJ.

YAALREADYKNO
12-18-2014, 02:31 PM
how is Kobe over Duncan? It can't be explained to me in a rational way. Duncan has as much team success, stats, dominance, was the best player in a few given years, and is the two way dominant big that always holds more impact than a wing player who might be close statistically. Really, the only non-big man better than Duncan ever in my eyes is MJ.

so according to you david robinson>kobe

bcc
12-30-2014, 04:28 PM
I have Russell at #11 based off his team success too. I just don't get how people can put him at #2 or over hakeem in the top 10 when he played in such a weak era
---------------------------------------------------
Then let's be certain to correct anyone that claims Jim Brown is an all-time Top 10 football player as well.
Certainly a "weak era" there too.

nickdymez
12-30-2014, 04:53 PM
so according to you david robinson>kobe


Dont bother. He hates kobe beyond belief. According to him, only thing kobe did to seperate himself is play for 19 years.

JV35
12-30-2014, 05:06 PM
Bill Russell wasn't over-rated. Even his most ardent detractors (assuming they possess even the remotest comprehension of NBA history) have him well into the Top 10 all-time.

Hawkeye15
12-30-2014, 05:15 PM
so according to you david robinson>kobe

where did you read that in my post?