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View Full Version : Will LBJ accomplish what Jordan, Magic, Bird, Shaq and Kobe couldn't do?



JasonJohnHorn
12-09-2014, 11:52 PM
Each of the last four seasons, LeBron James has made it to the NBA finals. Four straight years in the finals is something that Jordan Shaq, Duncan and Kobe have all failed to do. Bird and Magic both pulled it off in the 80's. This year, LBJ is in position to make his fifth consecutive finals appearance. This has not been done by a player since the 60's when Bill Russell led the Celtics to 10 straight finals appearances (and 12/13 finals appearances, winning 11/12 of those appearances). It has been almost 50 years since this happened! Something that we may not witness again for another 50 years (unless KD and AD team up with Curry).

Do you think LBJ will put himself in the conversation with Russell and separate himself from Magic and Bird?

Tony_Starks
12-10-2014, 12:00 AM
I seriously doubt the Cavs go to the Finals this year. If by some fluke they did I would still have a problem putting Lebron in the Magic, Kobe, Bird, MJ conversation. I really don't see how you can compare legends that were career long icons for their franchise to someone that basically ring chased.....

koreancabbage
12-10-2014, 12:02 AM
I seriously doubt the Cavs go to the Finals this year. If by some fluke they did I would still have a problem putting Lebron in the Magic, Kobe, Bird, MJ conversation. I really don't see how you can compare legends that were career long icons for their franchise to someone that basically ring chased.....

can't they both be in the same?

Raps18-19 Champ
12-10-2014, 12:02 AM
They're the best team in the East so wouldn't surprise me.

ghettosean
12-10-2014, 12:06 AM
Each of the last four seasons, LeBron James has made it to the NBA finals. Four straight years in the finals is something that Jordan Shaq, Duncan and Kobe have all failed to do. Bird and Magic both pulled it off in the 80's. This year, LBJ is in position to make his fifth consecutive finals appearance. This has not been done by a player since the 60's when Bill Russell led the Celtics to 10 straight finals appearances (and 12/13 finals appearances, winning 11/12 of those appearances). It has been almost 50 years since this happened! Something that we may not witness again for another 50 years (unless KD and AD team up with Curry).

Do you think LBJ will put himself in the conversation with Russell and separate himself from Magic and Bird?

:facepalm: This kind of stuff is why I can't take these type of records seriously. All the people you mentioned did not have this "lets team up and well be the greatest mentality" (though some will say Magic) but seriously players of today just aren't on there level. I wish Magic, Bird and Jordan teamed up though it would have ruined the game but would put stupid records like this to rest. After Magic and Birds prime Jordan could have added Shaq and Karl Malone to the Bulls... lol

jerellh528
12-10-2014, 12:07 AM
He could, but id be more impressed if those finals appearances translated into rings. Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades... Its helped that he's created some suoer teams along the way

Raps18-19 Champ
12-10-2014, 12:12 AM
:facepalm: This kind of stuff is why I can't take these type of records seriously. All the people you mentioned did not have this "lets team up and well be the greatest mentality" (though some will say Magic) but seriously players of today just aren't on there level. I wish Magic, Bird and Jordan teamed up though it would have ruined the game but would put stupid records like this to rest. After Magic and Birds prime Jordan could have added Shaq and Karl Malone to the Bulls... lol

Really? It happened all the time. Jordan literally forced management to ensure that Pippen wasn't traded since he knew he couldn't win without him. Same with Larry, Parish, McHale and DJ. Magic literally only declared because he was going to team up with Kareem right away.

Chronz
12-10-2014, 12:17 AM
I seriously doubt the Cavs go to the Finals this year. If by some fluke they did I would still have a problem putting Lebron in the Magic, Kobe, Bird, MJ conversation. I really don't see how you can compare legends that were career long icons for their franchise to someone that basically ring chased.....

That's because you're biased and ignore ring chasing when it's ur team. Remember What both magic and Kobe did before they even entered the league.


To answer the thread tho, he better. The east is as weak as the west was during magics day

Chronz
12-10-2014, 12:19 AM
:facepalm: This kind of stuff is why I can't take these type of records seriously. All the people you mentioned did not have this "lets team up and well be the greatest mentality" (though some will say Magic) but seriously players of today just aren't on there level. I wish Magic, Bird and Jordan teamed up though it would have ruined the game but would put stupid records like this to rest. After Magic and Birds prime Jordan could have added Shaq and Karl Malone to the Bulls... lol
Ur bias is showing

Chronz
12-10-2014, 12:20 AM
He could, but id be more impressed if those finals appearances translated into rings. Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades... Its helped that he's created some suoer teams along the way
If that's true ( which it is) then plz tell me your the type who understands why championships don't separate players.

It's why Tmac at his peak was greater than Kobe

JasonJohnHorn
12-10-2014, 12:22 AM
I seriously doubt the Cavs go to the Finals this year. If by some fluke they did I would still have a problem putting Lebron in the Magic, Kobe, Bird, MJ conversation. I really don't see how you can compare legends that were career long icons for their franchise to someone that basically ring chased.....


Well... given that Magic got to play with Worthy, Kareem, Nixon and Cooper, and then later AC Green, and Byron Scott, he didn't need to 'ring chase' because he was drafted by a contender and had the greatest GM ever (can you name one player who was even as good as Norm Nixon on the Cavs, let alone Kareem or Worhy?).

Bird got McHale and Parish along with Dennis Johnson and Bill Walton, and had great role players like Cedric Maxwell. Did LBJ have anybody as good as those guys in Cleveland?

Shaq had Kobe, then Wade.... Kobe had Shaq, then Gasol and Bynum. LBJ never had anybody that good in Cleveland.


And Jordan had Pippen and Grant then Rodman. Pippen and Rodman? Did LBJ EVER have anybody that good in Cleveland? Yes he still got to the finals there.

Can't fault LBJ for wanting to put himself in a situation similar to Magic, Bird, Shaq, Kobe and Jordan. It's not his fault that the Cavs GM was so awful.

Having Wade and Bosh is no different than Jordan having Pippen and Rodman, or Bird having McHale and Paris, or Magic having Kareem and Worthy.

Yanks All Day
12-10-2014, 12:27 AM
Cleveland has the most talent in the East and is only just learning to play together. They should probably win the East, especially considering they have at least 60 more games until playoffs start.

If Derrick Rose was healthy and playing like he used to, I'd say the Bulls would stand in Cleveland's way. Without MVP-caliber Rose, I can't see Chicago beating Cleveland 4 out of 7 times. The Cavs are also flat-out more talented than Washington, Toronto, etc. Giving that kind of talent time to gel will work out very well for the Cavs in the long run.

LeBron SHOULD go to 5 straight Finals, yes. Will he win it? Way too early to tell, but Cleveland certainly has the talent to pull it off. Scary good offense that's becoming more efficient. A young, athletic team that's learning how to play defense. 4 very good rebounders. All they need is time and continuity.

TrueFan420
12-10-2014, 12:37 AM
With how pathetic the east is it wouldn't surprise me.

Tony_Starks
12-10-2014, 12:40 AM
Well... given that Magic got to play with Worthy, Kareem, Nixon and Cooper, and then later AC Green, and Byron Scott, he didn't need to 'ring chase' because he was drafted by a contender and had the greatest GM ever (can you name one player who was even as good as Norm Nixon on the Cavs, let alone Kareem or Worhy?).

Bird got McHale and Parish along with Dennis Johnson and Bill Walton, and had great role players like Cedric Maxwell. Did LBJ have anybody as good as those guys in Cleveland?

Shaq had Kobe, then Wade.... Kobe had Shaq, then Gasol and Bynum. LBJ never had anybody that good in Cleveland.


And Jordan had Pippen and Grant then Rodman. Pippen and Rodman? Did LBJ EVER have anybody that good in Cleveland? Yes he still got to the finals there.

Can't fault LBJ for wanting to put himself in a situation similar to Magic, Bird, Shaq, Kobe and Jordan. It's not his fault that the Cavs GM was so awful.

Having Wade and Bosh is no different than Jordan having Pippen and Rodman, or Bird having McHale and Paris, or Magic having Kareem and Worthy.

I really don't understand why Magic, Bird, and Kobe have to somehow get it held against them that they came into great franchises and stayed there. Especially when you consider they literally made all the players around them better. Bird is the most clutch player ever and we all know what Magic did as a rookie in the Finals with no KAJ.

It's all personal opinion, but MY personal opinion is that it's disrespectful to put that guy in the same conversation with those greats.....

Raps18-19 Champ
12-10-2014, 01:01 AM
I really don't understand why Magic, Bird, and Kobe have to somehow get it held against them that they came into great franchises and stayed there. Especially when you consider they literally made all the players around them better. Bird is the most clutch player ever and we all know what Magic did as a rookie in the Finals with no KAJ.

It's all personal opinion, but MY personal opinion is that it's disrespectful to put that guy in the same conversation with those greats.....

But it's okay to hold it against a guy for wanting to leave a terribly run franchise?

jmartin80
12-10-2014, 01:05 AM
I really can't believe how everyone keeps on overlooking James Jones. He is in the position to make his 5th straight final appearance. This is something that we won't see again until all the next time 3 stars get together behind the scenes and join forces. etc.

Think it will start to be more common then the OP suggests. Which I think is hurting the NBA more then helping it but oh well.

Jeffy25
12-10-2014, 01:14 AM
People are mad at him for joining the Heat, and then going back and having a superstar added to him and Kyrie.

Come on.

Magic, Bird, and Jordan got to play with multiple hall of famers, was that going to happen for Lebron in Cleveland? Maybe at some point. Probably not.


And I don't think team success really matters that much in all-time greatness conversations.

numba1CHANGsta
12-10-2014, 01:18 AM
LeBron can make it to 10 straight Finals and still won't match the championship rings to Magic, Kobe, Shaq, MJ, etc.

Jeffy25
12-10-2014, 01:19 AM
I really don't understand why Magic, Bird, and Kobe have to somehow get it held against them that they came into great franchises and stayed there.

Because people are giving them credit for staying with their teams and never ring chasing!!!!

Haha, that's why people are putting it back down. Because the assertions are being made are this:


I seriously doubt the Cavs go to the Finals this year. If by some fluke they did I would still have a problem putting Lebron in the Magic, Kobe, Bird, MJ conversation. I really don't see how you can compare legends that were career long icons for their franchise to someone that basically ring chased.....

This is the second post in the thread. You brought it up.



Most hypocritical post I've seen in a while.

Chronz
12-10-2014, 01:25 AM
People are mad at him for joining the Heat, and then going back and having a superstar added to him and Kyrie.

Come on.

Magic, Bird, and Jordan got to play with multiple hall of famers, was that going to happen for Lebron in Cleveland? Maybe at some point. Probably not.


And I don't think team success really matters that much in all-time greatness conversations.
Double standards ftw

People have expected Bron to win with bums since day 600

Teufelshunde4
12-10-2014, 02:08 AM
MJ never lost in the Finals.. Kobe cant touch that. LBJ cant. Magic cant.. Bird cant... Even Russell lost in the Finals... LBJ has lost in 3 NBA Finals. Nothing against him at all.

Does anyone remember that the Bills made 4 straight Super Bowls in early 90's? Nope!!! People remember the Champs not the 1st place loser

Jeffy25
12-10-2014, 02:10 AM
MJ never lost in the Finals.. Kobe cant touch that. LBJ cant. Magic cant.. Bird cant... Even Russell lost in the Finals... LBJ has lost in 3 NBA Finals. Nothing against him at all.

Does anyone remember that the Bills made 4 straight Super Bowls in early 90's? Nope!!! People remember the Champs not the 1st place loser

Well.....you just did ;)

Hawkeye15
12-10-2014, 02:24 AM
LeBron James sucks at basketball. Next topic please

benny01
12-10-2014, 02:51 AM
LeBron James sucks at basketball. Next topic please
perfect

DemarDerozan
12-10-2014, 03:57 AM
I wonder how many titles Jordan would have one if he dropped the Bulls in 1988 and teamed up with Bird or Magic... Then as soon as they showed the slightest sign of regression signed to play with Hakeem?

James is not comparable to the real all time greats. He's a Michael Jordan level talent with a journeyman mentality.

JasonJohnHorn
12-10-2014, 04:05 AM
I really don't understand why Magic, Bird, and Kobe have to somehow get it held against them that they came into great franchises and stayed there. Especially when you consider they literally made all the players around them better. Bird is the most clutch player ever and we all know what Magic did as a rookie in the Finals with no KAJ.

It's all personal opinion, but MY personal opinion is that it's disrespectful to put that guy in the same conversation with those greats.....

I don't hold it against them, but neither do I hold it against LBJ that he was draft by the worst team in the league and had horrible management. You are the one calling him a ring chaser and saying he can't compare to Kobe, Magic, Shaq and Jordan because he had to team up with greats, while ignoring that all of those guys had better rosters than LBJ did in Cleveland.

Jeffy25
12-10-2014, 04:10 AM
I wonder how many titles Jordan would have one if he dropped the Bulls in 1988 and teamed up with Bird or Magic... Then as soon as they showed the slightest sign of regression signed to play with Hakeem?

James is not comparable to the real all time greats. He's a Michael Jordan level talent with a journeyman mentality.

Let's play the what if

Jordan could only leave before the 88 season.

If he had joined Magic, Worthy, and Kareem for that 88 season, they probably beat the bad boy Pistons.....except the Lakers were already at the salary cap.

Same thing with Bird, McHale, and Parish....except, again, they were already at the salary cap.

I don't see who he would have teamed up or where he would have gone in 88....maybe Golden State?

And then he signed an 8 year deal.

Just different situations, let's be honest.

Chronz
12-10-2014, 04:17 AM
MJ never lost in the Finals.. Kobe cant touch that. LBJ cant. Magic cant.. Bird cant... Even Russell lost in the Finals... LBJ has lost in 3 NBA Finals. Nothing against him at all.

Does anyone remember that the Bills made 4 straight Super Bowls in early 90's? Nope!!! People remember the Champs not the 1st place loser

Speak for yourself, I dont care about what people remember, I care about FACTS. Recorded history is much more significant than flawed memory. Making the Finals is an achievement in and of itself, certainly much better than losing beforehand or not even making the playoffs to begin with.

Chronz
12-10-2014, 04:35 AM
Let's play the what if

Jordan could only leave before the 88 season.

If he had joined Magic, Worthy, and Kareem for that 88 season, they probably beat the bad boy Pistons.....except the Lakers were already at the salary cap.

Same thing with Bird, McHale, and Parish....except, again, they were already at the salary cap.

I don't see who he would have teamed up or where he would have gone in 88....maybe Golden State?

And then he signed an 8 year deal.

Just different situations, let's be honest.

Wasn't Bird close to finished by 88? His point is idiotic to begin with, especially when you consider that Bird HIMSELF doesn't know if hes ever witnessed a more dominant title run than what Bron pulled off in Miami. So lets keep Larry Legend out of this unless you actually give a **** about what he thinks.

PowerHouse
12-10-2014, 04:44 AM
Let's play the what if

Jordan could only leave before the 88 season.

If he had joined Magic, Worthy, and Kareem for that 88 season, they probably beat the bad boy Pistons.....except the Lakers were already at the salary cap.

Same thing with Bird, McHale, and Parish....except, again, they were already at the salary cap.

I don't see who he would have teamed up or where he would have gone in 88....maybe Golden State?

And then he signed an 8 year deal.

Just different situations, let's be honest.

If Jordan would have whined long enough to Bulls management in '88 that he wanted to go to an immediate title contender Im sure something could have been arranged. Idk maybe a sign and trade to the Lakers for Worthy/Cooper? (DD didnt say anything about forming a big four in LA, just playing with Magic)

GoferKing_
12-10-2014, 04:45 AM
He won't win more or as many rings as them so we need to look at some minor achievements for this self-proclaimed "king" James?

Bruno
12-10-2014, 05:30 AM
i think it would reflect his impact. when you put one of the best players ever in a conference that's wide open and rebuilding (or injured) you're going to get special results. i like how he's pacing himself this year and I expect him to turn it on in the playoffs.

basketfan4life
12-10-2014, 06:28 AM
But it's okay to hold it against a guy for wanting to leave a terribly run franchise?
You guys are missing the point. People are mad because he teamed up with other 2 best players of his conference(except howard was better than bosh). Almost everybody here were claiming D-Wade is the second best player at the time. His conference was already historically weak by the way. This is like cheating.

But you already know and ignore these things.

PurpleLynch
12-10-2014, 07:25 AM
Each of the last four seasons, LeBron James has made it to the NBA finals. Four straight years in the finals is something that Jordan Shaq, Duncan and Kobe have all failed to do. Bird and Magic both pulled it off in the 80's. This year, LBJ is in position to make his fifth consecutive finals appearance. This has not been done by a player since the 60's when Bill Russell led the Celtics to 10 straight finals appearances (and 12/13 finals appearances, winning 11/12 of those appearances). It has been almost 50 years since this happened! Something that we may not witness again for another 50 years (unless KD and AD team up with Curry).

Do you think LBJ will put himself in the conversation with Russell and separate himself from Magic and Bird?

Well,first I have to understand what does "...in the conversation with Russell and separate himself from Magic and Bird?" mean.
"Finals appearances" wise,yes,there's a strong chance that Cleveland is going to the Finals this year(the team is really strong on offense and Blatt is a great coach,you will see).
But Finals appearances(or rings) and ranking players are two different things:that's why Russell is not regarded as the best player of all time,even if he dominated with his team for more than a decade,winning 11 rings. I mean,rings have a value when you "rank" a player,but a limited value:winning a championship or having a good run in the PO are team oriented stats imo.

PurpleLynch
12-10-2014, 07:31 AM
If that's true ( which it is) then plz tell me your the type who understands why championships don't separate players.

It's why Tmac at his peak was greater than Kobe

Evaluating a player based on his "peak" is a very subjective method. I agree that championships don't separate players,but they have a value nonetheless and you have to give it a "limited value" when you rank a player.

KB24PG16
12-10-2014, 07:41 AM
quite the accomplishment, but is understandable when considering the frail nature of the east, where the first round for the 1 seed is essentially a bye

Jeffy25
12-10-2014, 09:41 AM
You guys are missing the point. People are mad because he teamed up with other 2 best players of his conference(except howard was better than bosh). Almost everybody here were claiming D-Wade is the second best player at the time. His conference was already historically weak by the way. This is like cheating.

But you already know and ignore these things.

Why does trying to take an easier path to the finals matter?

It's not cheating, it's taking advantage of the situation.

The goal is to win, why purposefully make things harder on yourself?

jmartin80
12-10-2014, 09:58 AM
People are mad at him for joining the Heat, and then going back and having a superstar added to him and Kyrie.

Come on.

Magic, Bird, and Jordan got to play with multiple hall of famers, was that going to happen for Lebron in Cleveland? Maybe at some point. Probably not.


And I don't think team success really matters that much in all-time greatness conversations.


I will tell you why I don't agree with your points. Not to start an argument, but simply stating my opinion.

All time greats make not only themselves better, but their whole team better. This is what James was doing his last year in Cleveland prior to his first bail. I think how a player can strengthen the teams should very much be considered in all-time greatness conversations.

Now, Jordan did play with multiple Hall of famers (Mainly Pippen and Rodman) but it is important to remember that he went the same number of years without a title as Lebron did. Lebron made it to the finals before Jordan actually. Impressive.

Jordan stayed with his team. Cleveland, before Lebron left, was a 61 and a 66 win team. Everyone says how "talentless" the Cavs were prior to Lebron leaving, but to win 66 games, 6 shy of the all time record is nothing to sneeze at. If not superstars, they did surround him with role players strong enough to get 66 wins.

Pippen was traded for very soon after the draft with that trade including the Bulls 1st overall selection that year. The Bulls were targeting Pippen at the number 8 slot, but he went earlier at number five so they traded for him. He was not signed as a top a 10 player etc.

Lebron can in no way be compare to Jordan, IN MY OPINION, based on all of this. Imagine if Jordan would have met with Magic Johnson and say Karl Malone in the offseason, bailed on his team and all signed to one team... They would have made it to 4 straight finals too. If not more. And his legacy would be tarnished. And those who hate Jordan would quote this fact all the time.

Fans of Lebron need to accept that the way he has manipulated the NBA and ring chased, jumping to super teams will always tarnish his legacy in the eyes of a lot of fans. If you agree with it or not, I really don't care. But you do need to accept it. It will always be there.

He formed his own super team in the Heat and then waited for the NBA to form him a super team back at his home town where he could once again collude behind the scenes and manipulate a roster for the easiest path possible.

NO other all times greats did that or needed to do that.

4 Straight finals is impressive, 5 very impressive. But not as impressive as that first run he made in Cleveland to 66 wins and a finals appearance. That was more impressive to me as a fan.

valade16
12-10-2014, 10:07 AM
Why does trying to take an easier path to the finals matter?

It's not cheating, it's taking advantage of the situation.

The goal is to win, why purposefully make things harder on yourself?

It's not that trying it matters, but you do have to factor in competition when discussing the greatest players and teams of all-time. If we want to say every finals run or championship is equal then the 60's Celtics are so far above any other team it's not even worth debating the best team.

Teufelshunde4
12-10-2014, 11:31 AM
Speak for yourself, I dont care about what people remember, I care about FACTS. Recorded history is much more significant than flawed memory. Making the Finals is an achievement in and of itself, certainly much better than losing beforehand or not even making the playoffs to begin with.

I never said making the Finals wasn't an achievement.. Its not a flawed memory its perception.

valade16
12-10-2014, 11:41 AM
Speak for yourself, I dont care about what people remember, I care about FACTS. Recorded history is much more significant than flawed memory. Making the Finals is an achievement in and of itself, certainly much better than losing beforehand or not even making the playoffs to begin with.

True, but certainly not as much of an achievement as winning the Finals.

Do you have an amount of finals losses that you would consider to be as good as a Finals win? Like if a guy's team went 0-5 in the Finals do you consider that more impressive than someone whose team went 1-0 (assuming both were the undisputed #1 and leader of their team)?

Tony_Starks
12-10-2014, 11:44 AM
I will tell you why I don't agree with your points. Not to start an argument, but simply stating my opinion.

All time greats make not only themselves better, but their whole team better. This is what James was doing his last year in Cleveland prior to his first bail. I think how a player can strengthen the teams should very much be considered in all-time greatness conversations.

Now, Jordan did play with multiple Hall of famers (Mainly Pippen and Rodman) but it is important to remember that he went the same number of years without a title as Lebron did. Lebron made it to the finals before Jordan actually. Impressive.

Jordan stayed with his team. Cleveland, before Lebron left, was a 61 and a 66 win team. Everyone says how "talentless" the Cavs were prior to Lebron leaving, but to win 66 games, 6 shy of the all time record is nothing to sneeze at. If not superstars, they did surround him with role players strong enough to get 66 wins.

Pippen was traded for very soon after the draft with that trade including the Bulls 1st overall selection that year. The Bulls were targeting Pippen at the number 8 slot, but he went earlier at number five so they traded for him. He was not signed as a top a 10 player etc.

Lebron can in no way be compare to Jordan, IN MY OPINION, based on all of this. Imagine if Jordan would have met with Magic Johnson and say Karl Malone in the offseason, bailed on his team and all signed to one team... They would have made it to 4 straight finals too. If not more. And his legacy would be tarnished. And those who hate Jordan would quote this fact all the time.

Fans of Lebron need to accept that the way he has manipulated the NBA and ring chased, jumping to super teams will always tarnish his legacy in the eyes of a lot of fans. If you agree with it or not, I really don't care. But you do need to accept it. It will always be there.

He formed his own super team in the Heat and then waited for the NBA to form him a super team back at his home town where he could once again collude behind the scenes and manipulate a roster for the easiest path possible.

NO other all times greats did that or needed to do that.

4 Straight finals is impressive, 5 very impressive. But not as impressive as that first run he made in Cleveland to 66 wins and a finals appearance. That was more impressive to me as a fan.

This is pretty much it. Rather people agree that Lebron has tarnished his "legacy" or not is irrelevant. Most reasonable people can't deny that there is a perception that he took the road to least resistance in Miami, admitted he would've stayed if they won, and bailed for a younger super team.

Like it or not when it's all said and done those things will always be mentioned....

valade16
12-10-2014, 12:18 PM
This is pretty much it. Rather people agree that Lebron has tarnished his "legacy" or not is irrelevant. Most reasonable people can't deny that there is a perception that he took the road to least resistance in Miami, admitted he would've stayed if they won, and bailed for a younger super team.

Like it or not when it's all said and done those things will always be mentioned....

It is certainly a narrative when discussing his legacy however it cannot minimize his talent or ability. When it's all said and done saying LeBron is a top 10 player of all-time will be a low end assessment.

Tony_Starks
12-10-2014, 12:42 PM
It is certainly a narrative when discussing his legacy however it cannot minimize his talent or ability. When it's all said and done saying LeBron is a top 10 player of all-time will be a low end assessment.

Well there's no denying he's going to be top 10 when it's said and done. I just wish fans would just let him be great, enjoy the show, and quit trying to compare him with the legends.

mngopher35
12-10-2014, 02:34 PM
Making his 5th straight finals would definitely be an accomplishment and looks possible. There is still a lot of season left but I still think cle chi will be in the ecf. Raptors and wizards have looked solid too so it should be a decent road.

With that said though you do need some context. 2011 they went through Boston and Chicago which was pretty good run. The following year is when knee issues started for wade a bit and bosh was injured. That Boston series was great and Indy put up a fight. The following two years weren't very impressive though with Indy being their only real challenge (and they weren't even the same by playoffs last year).

Ya I think lebron can make it 5 straight but a couple of them haven't been too much of a struggle. That is a lot of basketball over a 5 year stretch too.

Howard_Zinn
12-10-2014, 02:46 PM
Jordan

Magic/Bird/Kobe/Lebron

Players that played in the 50s/60s/70s (Bill Russell) - different game.

My opinion is the "real NBA" started with Magic/Bird and was taken to new heights with Jordan.

Just my opinion.

Howard_Zinn
12-10-2014, 02:50 PM
Ever watch an NBA game from the 80's or early 90's? You could practically mug players when they had the ball and not receive a foul. Players were still able to score and were much better than players of today's game. Jordan is far and away better than anything I've seen on a basketball floor. Players of that era probably laugh at the soft NBA of today.

Lebron is a great player and a freak of nature.. But he's not Jordan.. He's not even Kobe.

Howard_Zinn
12-10-2014, 02:51 PM
Well there's no denying he's going to be top 10 when it's said and done. I just wish fans would just let him be great, enjoy the show, and quit trying to compare him with the legends.

I agree. Lebron is great. Top 10 for sure. Just let him be great. Holding him to Michael Jordan isn't even fair.

Dade County
12-10-2014, 03:46 PM
Well hopefully Pat pulls something off, and the HEAT can be the organization that goes to the Final's for 5 straight years.

I think that would be a better story... You hear me script writers!

dnl123
12-10-2014, 04:10 PM
Ever watch an NBA game from the 80's or early 90's? You could practically mug players when they had the ball and not receive a foul. Players were still able to score and were much better than players of today's game. Jordan is far and away better than anything I've seen on a basketball floor. Players of that era probably laugh at the soft NBA of today.

Lebron is a great player and a freak of nature.. But he's not Jordan.. He's not even Kobe.

Other than rings which is still too early to compare since Kobe's played a lot longer, in what way is Kobe better than Lebron.

JustinTime
12-10-2014, 05:29 PM
Cavs won't even get by the Raptors when healthy

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-10-2014, 05:39 PM
Each of the last four seasons, LeBron James has made it to the NBA finals. Four straight years in the finals is something that Jordan Shaq, Duncan and Kobe have all failed to do. Bird and Magic both pulled it off in the 80's. This year, LBJ is in position to make his fifth consecutive finals appearance. This has not been done by a player since the 60's when Bill Russell led the Celtics to 10 straight finals appearances (and 12/13 finals appearances, winning 11/12 of those appearances). It has been almost 50 years since this happened! Something that we may not witness again for another 50 years (unless KD and AD team up with Curry).

Do you think LBJ will put himself in the conversation with Russell and separate himself from Magic and Bird?

This must be a joke. Lebron would have failed to make the finals in consecutive years had he been playing in the west. Making the finals from the east is laughable.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-10-2014, 05:41 PM
He could, but id be more impressed if those finals appearances translated into rings. Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades... Its helped that he's created some suoer teams along the way
If that's true ( which it is) then plz tell me your the type who understands why championships don't separate players.

It's why Tmac at his peak was greater than Kobe

You wish he was buddy, keep holding onto that.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-10-2014, 05:42 PM
Ever watch an NBA game from the 80's or early 90's? You could practically mug players when they had the ball and not receive a foul. Players were still able to score and were much better than players of today's game. Jordan is far and away better than anything I've seen on a basketball floor. Players of that era probably laugh at the soft NBA of today.

Lebron is a great player and a freak of nature.. But he's not Jordan.. He's not even Kobe.

Great post.

LA_Raiders
12-11-2014, 02:10 AM
Well, he plays in the Easy..

JasonJohnHorn
12-11-2014, 02:41 AM
Well hopefully Pat pulls something off, and the HEAT can be the organization that goes to the Final's for 5 straight years.

I think that would be a better story... You hear me script writers!

When I head that Houston was making a push for LBJ, I assumed he was going there: LBJ, Harden and Howard? At that point I thought: It's be great if he went to Houston and Miami won it all. But then he went back to Cleveland even though there was a better opportunity to win in Houston, and I had a change of heart. I really like the prodigal son returns narrative. :-)

Chronz
12-11-2014, 04:03 AM
Jordan

Magic/Bird/Kobe/Lebron

Players that played in the 50s/60s/70s (Bill Russell) - different game.

My opinion is the "real NBA" started with Magic/Bird and was taken to new heights with Jordan.

Just my opinion.

Today's NBA is just as different. What makes one "real" and the other fake?

Chronz
12-11-2014, 04:08 AM
Ever watch an NBA game from the 80's or early 90's? You could practically mug players when they had the ball and not receive a foul. Players were still able to score and were much better than players of today's game. Jordan is far and away better than anything I've seen on a basketball floor. Players of that era probably laugh at the soft NBA of today.

Lebron is a great player and a freak of nature.. But he's not Jordan.. He's not even Kobe.

LOL. Mugging players isn't defense. Remember, this was an era where zone defenses were illegal. Even players that played back then (such as Larry Bird) admit today's defenses are more intricate and stressed unlike the days of yore.

Its why the Lakers hiring Byron Scott as a defensive specialist was so hilarious, the guy has no clue as to how the game has evolved.


You wish he was buddy, keep holding onto that.
You keep thinking anyone gives a **** what you think.

jerellh528
12-11-2014, 04:51 AM
LOL. Mugging players isn't defense. Remember, this was an era where zone defenses were illegal. Even players that played back then (such as Larry Bird) admit today's defenses are more intricate and stressed unlike the days of yore.

Its why the Lakers hiring Byron Scott as a defensive specialist was so hilarious, the guy has no clue as to how the game has evolved.



You keep thinking anyone gives a **** what you think.

Hahahahahah byron scott, a retired all star player and current head coach of the most storied franchise in nba history doesnt know how the game has evolved... But chronz the keyboard warrrior does? God damn dude, you are so full of yoursef. Do you wear a fedora and drink mountain dew?

Chronz
12-11-2014, 05:06 AM
Hahahahahah byron scott, a retired all star player and current head coach of the most storied franchise in nba history doesnt know how the game has evolved... But chronz the keyboard warrrior does? God damn dude, you are so full of yoursef. Do you wear a fedora and drink mountain dew?
Is this suppose to pass for an argument? Just repeat criticism and appeal to your teams head coach? So when Laker fans mock their management, they are always out of line? Are you saying those in charge are always in the right?

Lets drop the straws about what you think I think of myself, are you saying no coach is beyond reproach? And what barometers do you apply to figure out which coaches are? What does being an All-Star have to do with anything. In case you didn't know this, the games greatest player has proven incompetent outside of his playing.


Its almost as if you dont know that some of the greatest basketball minds have come from inferior athletes. Hate to break the news but this isn't rocket science, you dont have to play to understand the game at a deeper level. In fact, players have said they gained the most intellectually from sitting on the sidelines as opposed to in the trenches.

jerellh528
12-11-2014, 05:14 AM
Is this suppose to pass for an argument? Just repeat criticism and appeal to your teams head coach? So when Laker fans mock their management, they are always out of line? Are you saying those in charge are always in the right?

Lets drop the straws about what you think I think of myself, are you saying no coach is beyond reproach? And what barometers do you apply to figure out which coaches are? What does being an All-Star have to do with anything. In case you didn't know this, the games greatest player has proven incompetent outside of his playing.


Its almost as if you dont know that some of the greatest basketball minds have come from inferior athletes. Hate to break the news but this isn't rocket science, you dont have to play to understand the game at a deeper level. In fact, players have said they gained the most intellectually from sitting on the sidelines as opposed to in the trenches.

Hes an nba level head coach. The literal top of the coacching world in basketball. He knows something about the game, you dont get there by accident. You dont think he has the pulse of the game down? You said he has no clue how the game has evolved. Who does then? Im sure you were probably being over the top with your comment but once again you come off as if yoh have every answer to anything in the basketball world

Chronz
12-11-2014, 05:20 AM
Hes an nba level head coach. The literal top of the coacching world in basketball. He knows something about the game, you dont get there by accident.
Answer the Q plz. Are you saying there have been exactly zero bad coaches in the game of basketball?


You dont think he has the pulse of the game down?
Not from what I've seen and heard from the players. You have to remember, hes a genius compared to you, but compared to other coaches, hes awfully outdated.


You said he has no clue how the game has evolved. Who does then?
Better coaches. I cant name them all but I know ignorance when I see it. Even Booz admits this defensive coach doesn't stress defense the way true defensive specialists do.


Im sure you were probably being over the top with your comment but once again you come off as if yoh have every answer to anything in the basketball world

Point? I know Im smarter than some head coaches who have passed through the NBA ranks, I know this because I've seen their ignorance first hand. Mike Dunleavy was the dumbest coach because he pretended to understand statistics by citing them, only being exposed as non-factual. Am I suppose to bow down because hes in a position of power? LMFAO.

Learn to think for yourself and if you must criticize the opinion of others, plz have more at your disposal than the appeal to authority fallacy. If you're open to objective evidence, you will find more answers.

Chronz
12-11-2014, 05:36 AM
I posted at 420 it says/ BRB

Jeffy25
12-11-2014, 05:51 AM
Hes an nba level head coach. The literal top of the coacching world in basketball. He knows something about the game, you dont get there by accident. You dont think he has the pulse of the game down? You said he has no clue how the game has evolved. Who does then? Im sure you were probably being over the top with your comment but once again you come off as if yoh have every answer to anything in the basketball world


Appeals to authority are the worst appeals.

Just because a guy is in a position of authority doesn't mean they are the best equipped or most knowledgeable for those positions.

I know for a fact there are plenty of really bad NBA managers, and plenty don't know enough about the game they are paid so well to lead, educate, and compete in.

This exists in all fields, but especially in the athletic field, where often the person put into authority is a former athlete who got to their level because of their athleticism, and not their raw knowledge of the sport.

It's why a lot of the greatest football coaches of all time never played professionally (Billicheck, Madden). This isn't locked into only the NFL either. Hell, in baseball, the best run MLB organizations aren't ran by former players, but by people who never played professionally at any level of even in college. The former player GM's are quickly being tossed out because they are ****ing morons who don't have the tiniest concept about the game they have spent their entire lives being compensated to play.


This is why you shouldn't appeal to authority. Because not all authority is in the correct position.

lakerfan85
12-11-2014, 08:43 AM
Answer the Q plz. Are you saying there have been exactly zero bad coaches in the game of basketball?


Not from what I've seen and heard from the players. You have to remember, hes a genius compared to you, but compared to other coaches, hes awfully outdated.


Better coaches. I cant name them all but I know ignorance when I see it. Even Booz admits this defensive coach doesn't stress defense the way true defensive specialists do.


Point? I know Im smarter than some head coaches who have passed through the NBA ranks, I know this because I've seen their ignorance first hand. Mike Dunleavy was the dumbest coach because he pretended to understand statistics by citing them, only being exposed as non-factual. Am I suppose to bow down because hes in a position of power? LMFAO.

Learn to think for yourself and if you must criticize the opinion of others, plz have more at your disposal than the appeal to authority fallacy. If you're open to objective evidence, you will find more answers.

Well **** son.. Why aren't you out there coaching? What the hell is someone with so much superiority doing here on PSD.. We're not worthy...

lakerfan85
12-11-2014, 08:52 AM
Appeals to authority are the worst appeals.

Just because a guy is in a position of authority doesn't mean they are the best equipped or most knowledgeable for those positions.

I know for a fact there are plenty of really bad NBA managers, and plenty don't know enough about the game they are paid so well to lead, educate, and compete in.

This exists in all fields, but especially in the athletic field, where often the person put into authority is a former athlete who got to their level because of their athleticism, and not their raw knowledge of the sport.

It's why a lot of the greatest football coaches of all time never played professionally (Billicheck, Madden). This isn't locked into only the NFL either. Hell, in baseball, the best run MLB organizations aren't ran by former players, but by people who never played professionally at any level of even in college. The former player GM's are quickly being tossed out because they are ****ing morons who don't have the tiniest concept about the game they have spent their entire lives being compensated to play.


This is why you shouldn't appeal to authority. Because not all authority is in the correct position.

They're coaches in the NBA.. Managers are in baseball..

lakerfan85
12-11-2014, 08:53 AM
Hes an nba level head coach. The literal top of the coacching world in basketball. He knows something about the game, you dont get there by accident. You dont think he has the pulse of the game down? You said he has no clue how the game has evolved. Who does then? Im sure you were probably being over the top with your comment but once again you come off as if yoh have every answer to anything in the basketball world

How dare you question the great chronz!!

valade16
12-11-2014, 10:29 AM
Well **** son.. Why aren't you out there coaching? What the hell is someone with so much superiority doing here on PSD.. We're not worthy...

You don't have to be good at something to realize someone else is bad at something.

koreancabbage
12-11-2014, 11:00 AM
This must be a joke. Lebron would have failed to make the finals in consecutive years had he been playing in the west. Making the finals from the east is laughable.

well we don't know that. If he went to a team with a savvy NBA GM, like the Mavericks, and teamed up with Dirk in those 4 years instead of Miami, I think Dallas would have 4 chips right now.

or he went to the Clippers with Blake and CP3, championship
or he went to the Grizzlies with Gasol and Randolph, championship
or he went to any of the top teams in the West - championship.

so i don't know how you can claim he would never win a chip with any of the top teams in the West.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-11-2014, 12:59 PM
Ever watch an NBA game from the 80's or early 90's? You could practically mug players when they had the ball and not receive a foul. Players were still able to score and were much better than players of today's game. Jordan is far and away better than anything I've seen on a basketball floor. Players of that era probably laugh at the soft NBA of today.

Lebron is a great player and a freak of nature.. But he's not Jordan.. He's not even Kobe.

LOL. Mugging players isn't defense. Remember, this was an era where zone defenses were illegal. Even players that played back then (such as Larry Bird) admit today's defenses are more intricate and stressed unlike the days of yore.

Its why the Lakers hiring Byron Scott as a defensive specialist was so hilarious, the guy has no clue as to how the game has evolved.


You wish he was buddy, keep holding onto that.
You keep thinking anyone gives a **** what you think.

You keep thinking anyone outside of psd believes you. :violin;

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-11-2014, 01:02 PM
LOL. Mugging players isn't defense. Remember, this was an era where zone defenses were illegal. Even players that played back then (such as Larry Bird) admit today's defenses are more intricate and stressed unlike the days of yore.

Its why the Lakers hiring Byron Scott as a defensive specialist was so hilarious, the guy has no clue as to how the game has evolved.



You keep thinking anyone gives a **** what you think.

Hahahahahah byron scott, a retired all star player and current head coach of the most storied franchise in nba history doesnt know how the game has evolved... But chronz the keyboard warrrior does? God damn dude, you are so full of yoursef. Do you wear a fedora and drink mountain dew?

Keyboard warrior lmao.

FlashBolt
12-11-2014, 02:19 PM
I really don't understand why Magic, Bird, and Kobe have to somehow get it held against them that they came into great franchises and stayed there. Especially when you consider they literally made all the players around them better. Bird is the most clutch player ever and we all know what Magic did as a rookie in the Finals with no KAJ.

It's all personal opinion, but MY personal opinion is that it's disrespectful to put that guy in the same conversation with those greats.....

Dude, you consistently prove your biased views towards LeBron consistently. If he didn't leave Miami, Miami would be the favorites to make it out of the East. He leaves Miami, and you're still complaining that he's not doing it legitimately. What the hell does that mean? How about you stick Kobe Bryant in Cleveland and see how he feels. Or how about you give LeBron a prime Shaq.. Then we'll see what happens. If not, just shut up. Every time I read your sentences, I have to remind myself that you're probably just trolling.

FlashBolt
12-11-2014, 02:26 PM
This must be a joke. Lebron would have failed to make the finals in consecutive years had he been playing in the west. Making the finals from the east is laughable.
How can this be proven? For one, we know that Western teams are better. How? Well, look how stacked some of those teams are. Dirk, Monta, Parsons, Chandler? Okay, take Dirk out and you have Monta, Parsons, James, Chandler. Memphis - Marc Gasol, Zach, Conley, Tony Allen. Take Zach Randolph out, you have LeBron. Sorry, but West is only better because they have stacked teams. If you put LeBron on a team in the West, expect a stacked team as well. For all this West is better than East junk, I believe LeBron has a better record vs West than he does against East.. Will need someone to check the validity but I know it's close.

OKC- Replace KD with LeBron, you'll get LeBron+Westbrook+Ibaka.
Clippers- Replace CP3 with LeBron, you'll get LeBron+Blake+DJ.
Warriors- Replace SC with LeBron, you'll get LeBron+Thompson+Bogut+David Lee.
Spurs- Replace Leonard with LeBron, you'll get LeBron+Duncan+Parker+Ginobili.

I mean, the possibilities are endless. You put LeBron on the West and you're telling me he wouldn't be able to compete? Lol, what a joke.


Cavs won't even get by the Raptors when healthy
I bet you wouldn't say that if Cavs were named Miami Heat instead of Cleveland.

Ever watch an NBA game from the 80's or early 90's? You could practically mug players when they had the ball and not receive a foul. Players were still able to score and were much better than players of today's game. Jordan is far and away better than anything I've seen on a basketball floor. Players of that era probably laugh at the soft NBA of today.

And you're pretending that NBA isn't as the most skilled level right now with insane athleticism never seen before. Could you imagine Stockton trying to hold Westbrook? My God. Every generation of anything has their pros and cons. It seems to me that you believe mugging basketball players represents basketball. It doesn't... And it certainly wasn't as intimidating as you make it to be. The free throw disparity between modern teams and Jordan-era isn't huge...
Lebron is a great player and a freak of nature.. But he's not Jordan.. He's not even Kobe.

Right.. He's not even Kobe. How did you make it to that assumption. What does Kobe do better than LeBron?

koreancabbage
12-11-2014, 02:27 PM
You keep thinking anyone outside of psd believes you. :violin;

honestly, you should be the least of all people saying that LOL

Hawkeye15
12-11-2014, 02:32 PM
Ever watch an NBA game from the 80's or early 90's? You could practically mug players when they had the ball and not receive a foul. Players were still able to score and were much better than players of today's game. Jordan is far and away better than anything I've seen on a basketball floor. Players of that era probably laugh at the soft NBA of today.

Lebron is a great player and a freak of nature.. But he's not Jordan.. He's not even Kobe.

the 80's? Where they played no defense, and it was a track meet?

Chronz
12-11-2014, 02:48 PM
Well **** son.. Why aren't you out there coaching? What the hell is someone with so much superiority doing here on PSD.. We're not worthy...

Do you not know how the real world works? Just being qualified isn't enough, you NEED credentials and its not just about what you know, but who you know and how you interact with others. Theres more to being a coach than X's and O's, in fact, some coaches have been ridiculed for their lack of strategy but have remained in power because they are supreme motivators or whatnot. LOL at you thinking its as easy as pie. Grow up.


You keep thinking anyone outside of psd believes you. :violin;

Dont even know what that means but you keep thinking anyone anywhere gives a **** .

lakerfan85
12-11-2014, 04:11 PM
Do you not know how the real world works? Just being qualified isn't enough, you NEED credentials and its not just about what you know, but who you know and how you interact with others. Theres more to being a coach than X's and O's, in fact, some coaches have been ridiculed for their lack of strategy but have remained in power because they are supreme motivators or whatnot. LOL at you thinking its as easy as pie. Grow up.




Dont even know what that means but you keep thinking anyone anywhere gives a **** .

The know it all supreme chronz has spoken!!!

Chronz
12-11-2014, 04:17 PM
The know it all supreme chronz has spoken!!!
You should know by now that strawman arguments only make you look bad.

lakerfan85
12-11-2014, 05:33 PM
You should know by now that strawman arguments only make you look bad.

Oh no!! I look bad on the Internet..

Chronz
12-11-2014, 06:32 PM
Oh no!! I look bad on the Internet..
Good on you to admit it, thats how we grow, especially mentally. If you cant make a decent argument, why even post?

lakerfan85
12-11-2014, 09:02 PM
Good on you to admit it, thats how we grow, especially mentally. If you cant make a decent argument, why even post?

What's the point? You'll just do what you do most of the time and claim someone doesn't know as much as you or you'll take shots at them.. That's the only reason I responded to begin with, you bash people when they don't see things your way..

cmellofan15
12-11-2014, 09:37 PM
What's the point? You'll just do what you do most of the time and claim someone doesn't know as much as you or you'll take shots at them.. That's the only reason I responded to begin with, you bash people when they don't see things your way..

I'd say start with a reasonable argument as to why you think Byron Scott is still a good coach or why you think he actually understands the evolution of the game and go from there...

and honestly, there's not much to work with outside of blaming the players because his teams have been absolutely terrible on defense lately.

Jeffy25
12-11-2014, 09:46 PM
People keep talking about how easy the East has been for LeBron

Record vs the West while he was in Miami: 76-32 (.704) - pro-rated, that would be a 58-24 regular season record.

What seed would that average record give them each year:

13-14 - 3rd seed, would have a first round matchup against Warriors
12-13 - 2nd seed, would have a first round matchup against Grizzlies
11-12 - 3rd seed, would have a first round matchup against Clippers
10-11 - 2nd seed, would have a first round matchup against Nuggets

Heat only had one number one seed any way (12-13) and probably would have been better that year any way.

It's not like the Heat would have had much of a problem in the West, their Finals series would have simply been the Western Conference Finals game...something they would have always made it to any way.

FlashBolt
12-11-2014, 09:53 PM
The people bashing Chronz are typically the Lakers fans. No surprise there. For some reason, they seem to attack any and everyone who somehow makes a valid argument.

How many of you think Mike Brown is a great coach? Was he even a good coach? He qualifies as an NBA coach but there's a difference between qualifying and having the "it" factor. I don't understand why some people seem to think that coaches know more than the NBA fans who aren't insiders. That is simply not true. The very fact that Fisher is a coach is pretty much proof that being an NBA coach isn't as prestigious as you believe it to be.

FlashBolt
12-11-2014, 09:54 PM
People keep talking about how easy the East has been for LeBron

Record vs the West while he was in Miami: 76-32 (.704) - pro-rated, that would be a 58-24 regular season record.

What seed would that average record give them each year:

13-14 - 3rd seed, would have a first round matchup against Warriors
12-13 - 2nd seed, would have a first round matchup against Grizzlies
11-12 - 3rd seed, would have a first round matchup against Clippers
10-11 - 2nd seed, would have a first round matchup against Nuggets

Heat only had one number one seed any way (12-13) and probably would have been better that year any way.

It's not like the Heat would have had much of a problem in the West, their Finals series would have simply been the Western Conference Finals game...something they would have always made it to any way.

Yup. Plus, people forget that they went through the Bulls/Celtics - who were two of the best teams in the league at any given time. Also, the Pacers were pretty damn good for some of those years. It wasn't as if they ran through a garbage team.

Kyben36
12-11-2014, 09:57 PM
Each of the last four seasons, LeBron James has made it to the NBA finals. Four straight years in the finals is something that Jordan Shaq, Duncan and Kobe have all failed to do. Bird and Magic both pulled it off in the 80's. This year, LBJ is in position to make his fifth consecutive finals appearance. This has not been done by a player since the 60's when Bill Russell led the Celtics to 10 straight finals appearances (and 12/13 finals appearances, winning 11/12 of those appearances). It has been almost 50 years since this happened! Something that we may not witness again for another 50 years (unless KD and AD team up with Curry).

Do you think LBJ will put himself in the conversation with Russell and separate himself from Magic and Bird?

nobody cares about apearances bro, not many people can even tell you who the bulls played in all those championships they won. cause it doesnt matter unless you win it all.

AIRMAR72
12-11-2014, 10:25 PM
Well... given that Magic got to play with Worthy, Kareem, Nixon and Cooper, and then later AC Green, and Byron Scott, he didn't need to 'ring chase' because he was drafted by a contender and had the greatest GM ever (can you name one player who was even as good as Norm Nixon on the Cavs, let alone Kareem or Worhy?).

Bird got McHale and Parish along with Dennis Johnson and Bill Walton, and had great role players like Cedric Maxwell. Did LBJ have anybody as good as those guys in Cleveland?

Shaq had Kobe, then Wade.... Kobe had Shaq, then Gasol and Bynum. LBJ never had anybody that good in Cleveland.


And Jordan had Pippen and Grant then Rodman. Pippen and Rodman? Did LBJ EVER have anybody that good in Cleveland? Yes he still got to the finals there.

Can't fault LBJ for wanting to put himself in a situation similar to Magic, Bird, Shaq, Kobe and Jordan. It's not his fault that the Cavs GM was so awful.

Having Wade and Bosh is no different than Jordan having Pippen and Rodman, or Bird having McHale and Paris, or Magic having Kareem and Worthy. There is a difference Scottie along with Horace was drafted by the Bulls and both players were hussle players Scottie wasn't no where the player he turned out to be if it wasn't for MJ...Magic had Kareem who at the time was almost finish but Worthy and Bryon where drafted by the Lakers and grew as players with Magic as well as Mchale growing with Bird and Parish we Don't see that in todays NBA era since guys go from one team to another teaming up with established star players from another team since its all about THE FRANCHISE who is claiming the true glory end of the day

AIRMAR72
12-11-2014, 10:26 PM
Well... given that Magic got to play with Worthy, Kareem, Nixon and Cooper, and then later AC Green, and Byron Scott, he didn't need to 'ring chase' because he was drafted by a contender and had the greatest GM ever (can you name one player who was even as good as Norm Nixon on the Cavs, let alone Kareem or Worhy?).

Bird got McHale and Parish along with Dennis Johnson and Bill Walton, and had great role players like Cedric Maxwell. Did LBJ have anybody as good as those guys in Cleveland?

Shaq had Kobe, then Wade.... Kobe had Shaq, then Gasol and Bynum. LBJ never had anybody that good in Cleveland.


And Jordan had Pippen and Grant then Rodman. Pippen and Rodman? Did LBJ EVER have anybody that good in Cleveland? Yes he still got to the finals there.

Can't fault LBJ for wanting to put himself in a situation similar to Magic, Bird, Shaq, Kobe and Jordan. It's not his fault that the Cavs GM was so awful.

Having Wade and Bosh is no different than Jordan having Pippen and Rodman, or Bird having McHale and Paris, or Magic having Kareem and Worthy. There is a difference Scottie along with Horace was drafted by the Bulls and both players were hussle players Scottie wasn't no where the player he turned out to be if it wasn't for MJ...Magic had Kareem who at the time was almost finish but Worthy and Bryon where drafted by the Lakers and grew as players with Magic as well as Mchale growing with Bird and Parish we Don't see that in todays NBA era since guys go from one team to another teaming up with established star players from another team since its all about THE FRANCHISE who is claiming the true glory end of the day

Jeffy25
12-11-2014, 11:26 PM
There is a difference Scottie along with Horace was drafted by the Bulls and both players were hussle players Scottie wasn't no where the player he turned out to be if it wasn't for MJ...Magic had Kareem who at the time was almost finish but Worthy and Bryon where drafted by the Lakers and grew as players with Magic as well as Mchale growing with Bird and Parish we Don't see that in todays NBA era since guys go from one team to another teaming up with established star players from another team since its all about THE FRANCHISE who is claiming the true glory end of the day

Kareem was almost finished?

Went on to play 25,000 minutes and retired just two years before Magic.

Kareem posted 20.6 PPG, 7.6 TRB, on .572 shooting on 21.7 PER after the Lakers drafted Magic

McHale and Bird played their entire careers basically simultaneously....same with Parish's career in Boston.

All three players were basically brought in at the same time.

Hawkeye15
12-11-2014, 11:39 PM
The people bashing Chronz are typically the Lakers fans. No surprise there. For some reason, they seem to attack any and everyone who somehow makes a valid argument.

How many of you think Mike Brown is a great coach? Was he even a good coach? He qualifies as an NBA coach but there's a difference between qualifying and having the "it" factor. I don't understand why some people seem to think that coaches know more than the NBA fans who aren't insiders. That is simply not true. The very fact that Fisher is a coach is pretty much proof that being an NBA coach isn't as prestigious as you believe it to be.

typically hahahaha? He, myself, and many posters here get crapped on by Kobe/Laker fans because we don't bow down and suck his dick.

Hawkeye15
12-11-2014, 11:42 PM
There is a difference Scottie along with Horace was drafted by the Bulls and both players were hussle players Scottie wasn't no where the player he turned out to be if it wasn't for MJ...Magic had Kareem who at the time was almost finish but Worthy and Bryon where drafted by the Lakers and grew as players with Magic as well as Mchale growing with Bird and Parish we Don't see that in todays NBA era since guys go from one team to another teaming up with established star players from another team since its all about THE FRANCHISE who is claiming the true glory end of the day


Bulls didn't draft Pippen

Anywho, why does it matter how a super team is put together? We are in the modern generation, where a kid graduates from college and wants to be the CEO in 3 years, otherwise he jumps companies. It surprises you that pro sports are any different? Nostalgia it up, but results are all that matter.

FlashBolt
12-11-2014, 11:48 PM
There is a difference Scottie along with Horace was drafted by the Bulls and both players were hussle players Scottie wasn't no where the player he turned out to be if it wasn't for MJ...Magic had Kareem who at the time was almost finish but Worthy and Bryon where drafted by the Lakers and grew as players with Magic as well as Mchale growing with Bird and Parish we Don't see that in todays NBA era since guys go from one team to another teaming up with established star players from another team since its all about THE FRANCHISE who is claiming the true glory end of the day

You don't have that anymore because talent is STACKED. Bird, McHale, Parish; Johnson, Kareem, Scott, Worthy. Those teams were above every and anyone else. Nowadays, you have to join others to dominate. It's like this, if James doesn't join Miami, how do you expect him to beat Spurs, Mavs, etc.? It's becoming tougher and tougher for one player to make as big of a difference as they used to. It's more team oriented than ever. The new style of basketball is just more advanced and quite frankly, people who dread on the past need to move on. You can't possibly tell me that the greatest players are only from Jordan's era. That's complete bull. In no way do basketball players lose talent as time goes on. And IDK what you are talking about. Pippen wasn't drafted by the Bulls. He was traded to Bulls by Seattle.

Chronz
12-13-2014, 02:43 PM
What's the point? You'll just do what you do most of the time and claim someone doesn't know as much as you or you'll take shots at them.. That's the only reason I responded to begin with, you bash people when they don't see things your way..
I only bash posts that have no substance. If you respond with an actual coherent argument (as opposed to the appeal to authority fallacy with absolutely no logic behind it), then you wont be dismissed. You ask questions I answer them. The only reason you responded was to throw straws and troll, you obviously have nothing to stand on. If so, it wouldn't have taken you so long to present ANYTHING.

jmartin80
12-13-2014, 03:05 PM
Bulls didn't draft Pippen

Anywho, why does it matter how a super team is put together? We are in the modern generation, where a kid graduates from college and wants to be the CEO in 3 years, otherwise he jumps companies. It surprises you that pro sports are any different? Nostalgia it up, but results are all that matter.

They didn't draft him, but that is who they were targeting the whole draft but he got picked up 3 spots before the Bulls pick. The Bulls then traded a short time later with the player they picked and additional picks. Pippen was not traded for when he as an all star an established pro. Similar to how the Trailblazers got Aldridge from the Bulls. For Tyrus Thomas. Still makes me cry.

If you are talking greatest of all time, of course nostalgia is going to come up. The fact is that Lebron could never do it without a "Super team" he put together behind the scenes or a team the NBA built. He left a team that won 66 games and 61 games in back to back seasons, 6 and 11 shy of the all time win record, so I don't buy this scrubs defense everyone goes to.

His super teams and trips to the finals don't impress me. Him taking the Cleveland team to the finals impressed me. To bad he had to wait for the NBA to give them 3 #1 picks before he felt comfortable enough to come back.

OF course those teams are going to win, especially in the East.

yay?

Chronz
12-13-2014, 03:32 PM
They didn't draft him, but that is who they were targeting the whole draft but he got picked up 3 spots before the Bulls pick. The Bulls then traded a short time later with the player they picked and additional picks. Pippen was not traded for when he as an all star an established pro. Similar to how the Trailblazers got Aldridge from the Bulls. For Tyrus Thomas. Still makes me cry.
I always felt Bron was too good too soon. Then I realize what a cop out that is for management. They never got to draft their Pippen/Horace to grow with Bron. These days, you have to be perfect when building around a star. Hell, nowadays simply having a star player doesn't even make you a threat for the playoffs, even in the weak east.



If you are talking greatest of all time, of course nostalgia is going to come up. The fact is that Lebron could never do it without a "Super team" he put together behind the scenes or a team the NBA built. He left a team that won 66 games and 61 games in back to back seasons, 6 and 11 shy of the all time win record, so I don't buy this scrubs defense everyone goes to.
You speak as if those 66 wins were indicative of anything outside of Bron worth bragging about. Facts are, that team was NOTHING without him, that was the least talented team to win that many games, hell forget games, to put up the offensive efficiency they did was bonkers. When you combine his replacement value + individual production, its the kind of load no other star has ever had to carry whilst winning a championship IMO. You take MJ off the Bulls, we saw them win 2 less games. You really think those Cavs drop 2 games without Bron?

Superteams are just a buzz word, you can think it carries any meaning but you're not differentiating James in any way. MJ is better than Bron for reasons beyond your buzz words.


His super teams and trips to the finals don't impress me. Him taking the Cleveland team to the finals impressed me. To bad he had to wait for the NBA to give them 3 #1 picks before he felt comfortable enough to come back.
OF course those teams are going to win, especially in the East.
yay?

Whats so bad about it? Im ignoring the allegation of rigging btw, just talking about why Bron is the only superstar who has to win against overwhelming odds for you to be impressed? Certainly didn't prevent Larry Bird from being impressed, so much so that he wonders if hes ever seen a greater title run. And thats high praise coming from someone more relevant than you or I. When you combine his opinion with the objective facts and numbers, its easy to see why its such an impressive accomplishment, buzz words be damned.

Even now in Miami, with them having made some decent additions, you take Bron off that team and they struggle to find an identity. Yet if Bron were to have won with that mediocre squad, you would casually dismiss that cast as a superteam? LMFAO . And thats without the advantage of the iso-era where a single player could make a bigger difference.

RocketLoc80
12-13-2014, 03:48 PM
"Better be careful you don`t want to get on the bad side of Kobe warriors at all man"

jmartin80
12-13-2014, 03:58 PM
I always felt Bron was too good too soon. Then I realize what a cop out that is for management. They never got to draft their Pippen/Horace to grow with Bron. These days, you have to be perfect when building around a star. Hell, nowadays simply having a star player doesn't even make you a threat for the playoffs, even in the weak east.



You speak as if those 66 wins were indicative of anything outside of Bron worth bragging about. Facts are, that team was NOTHING without him, that was the least talented team to win that many games, hell forget games, to put up the offensive efficiency they did was bonkers. When you combine his replacement value + individual production, its the kind of load no other star has ever had to carry whilst winning a championship IMO. You take MJ off the Bulls, we saw them win 2 less games. You really think those Cavs drop 2 games without Bron?

Superteams are just a buzz word, you can think it carries any meaning but you're not differentiating James in any way. MJ is better than Bron for reasons beyond your buzz words.


Whats so bad about it? Im ignoring the allegation of rigging btw, just talking about why Bron is the only superstar who has to win against overwhelming odds for you to be impressed? Certainly didn't prevent Larry Bird from being impressed, so much so that he wonders if hes ever seen a greater title run. And thats high praise coming from someone more relevant than you or I. When you combine his opinion with the objective facts and numbers, its easy to see why its such an impressive accomplishment, buzz words be damned.

Even now in Miami, with them having made some decent additions, you take Bron off that team and they struggle to find an identity. Yet if Bron were to have won with that mediocre squad, you would casually dismiss that cast as a superteam? LMFAO . And thats without the advantage of the iso-era where a single player could make a bigger difference.

Just responded to the original post and the discussion about how impressive making it to 5 straight finals is.

I don't think it is impressive at all since it was done in the way it was. If ANY of the mentioned players in the op got to collude and form these teams the way he has, they would have made it to 5 straight as well, especially in the East.

So it is not impressive and just continues to prove how truly scared he is of competition. Wants an easy ride. Not impressive to win with the teams he has at all.

So, yay?

tredigs
12-13-2014, 04:04 PM
People keep talking about how easy the East has been for LeBron

Record vs the West while he was in Miami: 76-32 (.704) - pro-rated, that would be a 58-24 regular season record.

What seed would that average record give them each year:

13-14 - 3rd seed, would have a first round matchup against Warriors
12-13 - 2nd seed, would have a first round matchup against Grizzlies
11-12 - 3rd seed, would have a first round matchup against Clippers
10-11 - 2nd seed, would have a first round matchup against Nuggets

Heat only had one number one seed any way (12-13) and probably would have been better that year any way.

It's not like the Heat would have had much of a problem in the West, their Finals series would have simply been the Western Conference Finals game...something they would have always made it to any way.
Big difference between the grind of playing a West team on most nights rather than the chance to "get up" for them on occasion. There's a smaller margin of error, and also your playoffs start in round 1 rather than round 2.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-13-2014, 04:12 PM
People keep talking about how easy the East has been for LeBron

Record vs the West while he was in Miami: 76-32 (.704) - pro-rated, that would be a 58-24 regular season record.

What seed would that average record give them each year:

13-14 - 3rd seed, would have a first round matchup against Warriors
12-13 - 2nd seed, would have a first round matchup against Grizzlies
11-12 - 3rd seed, would have a first round matchup against Clippers
10-11 - 2nd seed, would have a first round matchup against Nuggets

Heat only had one number one seed any way (12-13) and probably would have been better that year any way.

It's not like the Heat would have had much of a problem in the West, their Finals series would have simply been the Western Conference Finals game...something they would have always made it to any way.
Big difference between the grind of playing a West team on most nights rather than the chance to "get up" for them on occasion. There's a smaller margin of error, and also your playoffs start in round 1 rather than round 2.

Bingo

Bostonjorge
12-13-2014, 07:23 PM
What they couldn't do? There is a list of 50 players who could of done it.

Team up with 2 other top players in the league and play in the weakest conference ever. All 50 would accomplish 4 finals appearances no problem.

Hawkeye15
12-13-2014, 09:01 PM
Big difference between the grind of playing a West team on most nights rather than the chance to "get up" for them on occasion. There's a smaller margin of error, and also your playoffs start in round 1 rather than round 2.

by that rational, the Bulls 92' (3 teams in the east outside the Bulls won 50 games), 94' (2 teams over 50 wins outside the Bulls), 96" (2 teams outside the Bulls) teams should all be looked at the same. The east was pathetic at that point too.

There is an opposite theory as well. The teams out west over the past 15 years have an advantage when they hit the finals, they have been in finals win mode for over a month, where the east team is just now getting to that intensity level, and might come out of the gate slow.

Just food for thought...

ghettosean
12-14-2014, 01:54 AM
by that rational, the Bulls 92' (3 teams in the east outside the Bulls won 50 games), 94' (2 teams over 50 wins outside the Bulls), 96" (2 teams outside the Bulls) teams should all be looked at the same. The east was pathetic at that point too.

There is an opposite theory as well. The teams out west over the past 15 years have an advantage when they hit the finals, they have been in finals win mode for over a month, where the east team is just now getting to that intensity level, and might come out of the gate slow.

Just food for thought...

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2017531-nbas-eastern-conference-might-not-be-worst-version-ever

Not sure if the East was confirmed to be the worst ever in NBA history last year but it doesn't matter because they were one of the worst conferences ever in NBA history so comparing it to the bulls conference in the 90's doesn't really hold much weight. Lebron formed a super team with with Bosh and Wade to make it to the finals each year against this pathetic competition so it's not surprising he made 4 consecutive finals appearances it's too bad Miami couldn't have gotten Love then Wade could have made 5 consecutive finals appearances.

These guys are making history right here going to the finals 4 times in a row with a super team they formed themselves and beat some of the most pathetic competition of all time :clap:

Definitely one for the history books!

BALLER R
12-14-2014, 02:31 AM
Finals will be bulls vs warriors...that is all I have to say

Hawkeye15
12-14-2014, 03:40 AM
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2017531-nbas-eastern-conference-might-not-be-worst-version-ever

Not sure if the East was confirmed to be the worst ever in NBA history last year but it doesn't matter because they were one of the worst conferences ever in NBA history so comparing it to the bulls conference in the 90's doesn't really hold much weight. Lebron formed a super team with with Bosh and Wade to make it to the finals each year against this pathetic competition so it's not surprising he made 4 consecutive finals appearances it's too bad Miami couldn't have gotten Love then Wade could have made 5 consecutive finals appearances.

These guys are making history right here going to the finals 4 times in a row with a super team they formed themselves and beat some of the most pathetic competition of all time :clap:

Definitely one for the history books!

1- you act as if a player trying to form his own team over inept GM's matters
2- bleacher report......

Chronz
12-14-2014, 04:47 AM
Just responded to the original post and the discussion about how impressive making it to 5 straight finals is.

I don't think it is impressive at all since it was done in the way it was. If ANY of the mentioned players in the op got to collude and form these teams the way he has, they would have made it to 5 straight as well, especially in the East.

So it is not impressive and just continues to prove how truly scared he is of competition. Wants an easy ride. Not impressive to win with the teams he has at all.

So, yay?

I know you dont find it impressive, my entire breakdown was based on that assumption. Not sure why you felt the need to inform me about it.

I dont believe your hypothetical, we've already seen Magic and KAJ lose to inferior clubs well before the Finals. Hell, Magic lost to a sub.500 team during the days when the West was weak. This after already threatening to go back to school if the Lakers didn't draft him.

Not buying your argument, I'd much rather side with the likes of Larry Bird and the objective measures that expose the glaring flaws in your argument.

Chronz
12-14-2014, 04:48 AM
What they couldn't do? There is a list of 50 players who could of done it.

Team up with 2 other top players in the league and play in the weakest conference ever. All 50 would accomplish 4 finals appearances no problem.

Based on wat tho?

Chronz
12-14-2014, 05:42 AM
Also, what does this accomplishment matter anyways? Its a fun factoid, lets not ascribe any special meaning aside from the fact that its damn hard to play that long into every season. That hes remained so durable throughout his career is insane. I wonder just how much longevity he has in him. I feel like he can play at his currently declined level for quite some time.

ghettosean
12-14-2014, 12:33 PM
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2017531-nbas-eastern-conference-might-not-be-worst-version-ever

Not sure if the East was confirmed to be the worst ever in NBA history last year but it doesn't matter because they were one of the worst conferences ever in NBA history so comparing it to the bulls conference in the 90's doesn't really hold much weight. Lebron formed a super team with with Bosh and Wade to make it to the finals each year against this pathetic competition so it's not surprising he made 4 consecutive finals appearances it's too bad Miami couldn't have gotten Love then Wade could have made 5 consecutive finals appearances.

These guys are making history right here going to the finals 4 times in a row with a super team they formed themselves and beat some of the most pathetic competition of all time :clap:

Definitely one for the history books!




1- you act as if a player trying to form his own team over inept GM's matters
2- bleacher report......

1- I'm just saying I've never in the history of the league hearing of the best player gathering the 2nd best player in the league (which Wade was at the time) to form a super team with one of or the best PF's to beat up on some of the worst competition the league as ever seen in it's existence. So to count this as a huge achievement is ridiculous to me when considering those circumstances.

2- What do you have against the bleacher report... lol... Here's an ESPN article and a huffington post article on it but I used the bleacher report over ESPN because when Bill Simmons described the eastern conference he said... LOL -->
"You couldn't even call the Eastern Conference an apocalypse -- it's more like a poopocalypse." This is how sad the east has been during Lebrons 4 straight finals appearances that childish words like that make sense to describe his competition during that time.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/061129

and

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jesse-lawrence/despite-poor-play-eastern_b_4428539.html


As of last night, only three teams in the East have winning records, compared to nine in the West. According to an article on Deadspin last week, at a winning percentage of .314 percent, the Atlantic Division, which makes up many of the Eastern Conference powerhouses is on pace to be the worst division, ever, in the history of modern divisional sports. While that's a shocking number, what may be even more surprising is that the poor performance hasn't impacted ticket prices as much as one would suspect.

FYI:

The bleacher report article was closer to the end of last season which made it more relevant either way the terrible competition made headlines all over and this year even though it's one team the 76ers have the worst start to a season in franchise and nba history.

Bostonjorge
12-14-2014, 02:57 PM
Based on wat tho?

The competition was really weak. Guys like Barkley who only have 1 finals appearance could of made more with 1 other superstar let alone 2 especially in eastern conference these past 4 years.

Like I said there is a list of 50 players who could of led that Miami team past the east everytime.

Jeffy25
12-14-2014, 04:27 PM
Bleacher report is written by fans like you and I.

It is not a credible source

ghettosean
12-14-2014, 05:45 PM
Bleacher report is written by fans like you and I.

It is not a credible source

If you are referring to my post i used ESPN as well and others as you can see in my last post. East was historically bad during Lebrons rain to the finals with his super team against historically bad competition.

The facts are facts regardless of the source.

Lebron best player in the league joined woth the 2nd best player which was Wade at the time and arguably the best PF to face historically bad competition.

These finals appearances is a very impressive accomplishment :clap:

Congratulations Lebron and move over mount rushmore history is being made :clap:

Hawkeye15
12-14-2014, 06:57 PM
If you are referring to my post i used ESPN as well and others as you can see in my last post. East was historically bad during Lebrons rain to the finals with his super team against historically bad competition.

The facts are facts regardless of the source.

Lebron best player in the league joined woth the 2nd best player which was Wade at the time and arguably the best PF to face historically bad competition.

These finals appearances is a very impressive accomplishment :clap:

Congratulations Lebron and move over mount rushmore history is being made :clap:

you thought Wade was the 2nd best player in the league? And Bosh was the best PF? You are making that up to fit your agenda dude.

Bleacher report is written by nobodies, it has no merit. It is your opinion that the east was the weakest ever last year. Can you prove it? Do you know enough history?

Jeffy25
12-14-2014, 07:03 PM
If you are referring to my post i used ESPN as well and others as you can see in my last post. East was historically bad during Lebrons rain to the finals with his super team against historically bad competition.

The facts are facts regardless of the source.

They weren't really facts of anything. Just said what the conference records were against one another. That doesn't begin and end every discussion of ease of championships.

The Cavs aren't playing the Magic and 76ers in the playoffs, and the Spurs aren't playing the Wolves. And that was the depth of the link you shared. All you showed was that the worst teams in the league reside in one conference, and the rest of the league beats up on them.





Lebron best player in the league joined woth the 2nd best player which was Wade at the time and arguably the best PF to face historically bad competition.

This is far from the first time you saw three great players team up, Pierce, Allen, and Garnett just did it and took a ring. Nobody is slamming them for doing it.

Jeffy25
12-14-2014, 07:05 PM
you thought Wade was the 2nd best player in the league? And Bosh was the best PF? You are making that up to fit your agenda dude.

Bleacher report is written by nobodies, it has no merit. It is your opinion that the east was the weakest ever last year. Can you prove it? Do you know enough history?

Durant was the second best player in the league at that time, and Dirk was probably the best PF at that time.

jerellh528
12-14-2014, 07:32 PM
This is far from the first time you saw three great players team up, Pierce, Allen, and Garnett just did it and took a ring. Nobody is slamming them for doing it.

I think maybe because those 3 didnt team up in thier peak/ primes. They were on the decline and maybe last good legs.

jerellh528
12-14-2014, 07:39 PM
Durant was the second best player in the league at that time, and Dirk was probably the best PF at that time.

I would say Durant was 3rd best player and dirk was probably the best pf as you said. Wade was top 5 though and bosh was a top 10 player. So it was the number 2, 5, and 10 players in the league teamed up.

Jeffy25
12-14-2014, 07:41 PM
I would say Durant was 3rd best player and dirk was probably the best pf as you said. Wade was top 5 though and bosh was a top 10 player. So it was the number 2, 5, and 10 players in the league teamed up.

And what was it when Allen, Pierce, and Garnett teamed up?

Jeffy25
12-14-2014, 07:45 PM
I think maybe because those 3 didnt team up in thier peak/ primes. They were on the decline and maybe last good legs.

Allen was coming off his age 31 season where he had a normal PER, WS, and stats all across the board season other than missing some minutes due to a minor injury.

Garnett was coming off his age 30 season where he just got his fourth straight rebounding title and another caree normal season for him.

And Pierce was the youngest coming off his age 29 season where he had another normal year, but missed time due to injuries (but still got 25 ppg).

These guys were a little older than Lebron (25), Wade (28), and Bosh (25) but it was still three superstars who were clearly the best players on their teams, who teamed up, and won a chip in a 'weak' East

Jeffy25
12-14-2014, 07:48 PM
I would say Durant was 3rd best player and dirk was probably the best pf as you said. Wade was top 5 though and bosh was a top 10 player. So it was the number 2, 5, and 10 players in the league teamed up.

Then who do you consider the best player in the game?


I would say Bosh was top 20, but agree Wade was top 5

jerellh528
12-14-2014, 07:51 PM
Then who do you consider the best player in the game?


I would say Bosh was top 20, but agree Wade was top 5

Kobster ;)

Jeffy25
12-14-2014, 07:54 PM
Kobster ;)

Was the best player in the NBA in 10?

Jeffy25
12-14-2014, 07:58 PM
Is it that Durant and LeBron both out scored him, outshot him, out rebounded him, and we're more efficient that makes you feel he was better than both?

Kevj77
12-14-2014, 08:12 PM
He's got a great chance to accomplish this. I'd be more impressed if the Spurs made a third straight finals in a brutal western conference.

bagwell368
12-14-2014, 10:28 PM
Each of the last four seasons, LeBron James has made it to the NBA finals. Four straight years in the finals is something that Jordan Shaq, Duncan and Kobe have all failed to do. Bird and Magic both pulled it off in the 80's. This year, LBJ is in position to make his fifth consecutive finals appearance. This has not been done by a player since the 60's when Bill Russell led the Celtics to 10 straight finals appearances (and 12/13 finals appearances, winning 11/12 of those appearances). It has been almost 50 years since this happened! Something that we may not witness again for another 50 years (unless KD and AD team up with Curry).

Do you think LBJ will put himself in the conversation with Russell and separate himself from Magic and Bird?

Well the question isn't that interesting because Russell isn't as good as the 3 named players. So if LBJ passes Bird and Magic is that going to be some final word?

BTW, the East has been historically weak during this period, think he does it from the West?

flea
12-14-2014, 10:39 PM
Well the question isn't that interesting because Russell isn't as good as the 3 named players. So if LBJ passes Bird and Magic is that going to be some final word?

BTW, the East has been historically weak during this period, think he does it from the West?

On a team with weak rebounding, no standout defenders, and no post game whatsoever? They would have been lucky to make 2 straight WCF in the West, much less winning it 4 times. Look at what a healthy Pacers team could do to them. Now imagine having to deal with the Spurs, Grizzlies, Mavs, and Clippers' frontcourts every year.

Jeffy25
12-14-2014, 11:09 PM
Well the question isn't that interesting because Russell isn't as good as the 3 named players. So if LBJ passes Bird and Magic is that going to be some final word?

BTW, the East has been historically weak during this period, think he does it from the West?


I don't know that he makes the finals that often, but I bet he still has two rings.

Andrew32
12-15-2014, 09:47 AM
Shaq made the Finals 4 times in 5 years and would have made it in 03 if not for a severe storm of bad luck that included a thin roster and injuries to Kobe, Phil & important roleplayers.
There was also the poor play of Horry and team chemistry issues.

ghettosean
12-15-2014, 01:39 PM
you thought Wade was the 2nd best player in the league? And Bosh was the best PF? You are making that up to fit your agenda dude.

Bleacher report is written by nobodies, it has no merit. It is your opinion that the east was the weakest ever last year. Can you prove it? Do you know enough history?

Who is in your top 3 in the NBA when Miami formed?

I'm curious as to who you have as the best in the league at that time so it doesn't fit my agenda.

Also keep in mind Wade had this on his roster and made the 5 seed in the east that was more balanced at that time before they big 3 formed (see the joke of a roster below).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2010.html


- He was also in the top 5 for votes for MVP
http://www.nba.com/2010/news/05/02/james.mvp/

- He was also #2 in PER that year behind Lebron James
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/year/2010


Anyway just curious on your thoughts on who's in your top 3 the year before James and Wade came together to crush the pathetic eastern conference.

Let me know who your top 3 were as I gave you some efficiency and team success with Wade since I'm just trying to fit my agenda :rolleyes:



FYI:

Bosh I said was arguably the best PF in the league at that time and you could argue he was but you are entitled to your own opinion on that.

I'll address the pitiful eastern conference after you respond.

mngopher35
12-15-2014, 03:05 PM
The east wasn't as bad when they joined. You are using historically weak east (using records from teams like the 76ers to help your case) for last season. That first season when wade and bosh were still about the same players they went through Boston (the big 3 recently formed before heat) and then the MVP led bulls.

I won't argue too much on the wade and bosh rankings since I think wade top 5 and bosh top 20 is right which isn't too far off. Last year that is far from where they were though. I would take prime pippen over either from last season quite easily. When Jordan left for baseball pippen was like 3rd in MVP voting, I don't think either of them make top 10 now with lebron gone.

Look I know we will never agree and I like to use on court stuff much more anyways but the few people who spew the "best support ever" and "weakest completion ever" just haven't watched or done research on the history of the game. Magic had more talent and a weak west many years. Jordan and arguably the best teams ever had some years with weak east. Bill Russell everyone knows. How about coaching being factored in? Sure this team was stacked and at times had an easy road but it fits right in with teams listed above. Point it out for what it is but don't exaggerate as if its new.

I don't even think that this is some extremely impressive feat either, just saying that this type of support compared to competition has happened before, multiple times. Sure they got there differently than others but it doesn't change the impact once you step on the court. You don't have an advantage in game because you found your own help instead of the fo creating amazing situations.

ghettosean
12-15-2014, 03:24 PM
The east wasn't as bad when they joined. You are using historically weak east (using records from teams like the 76ers to help your case) for last season. That first season when wade and bosh were still about the same players they went through Boston (the big 3 recently formed before heat) and then the MVP led bulls.

I won't argue too much on the wade and bosh rankings since I think wade top 5 and bosh top 20 is right which isn't too far off. Last year that is far from where they were though. I would take prime pippen over either from last season quite easily. When Jordan left for baseball pippen was like 3rd in MVP voting, I don't think either of them make top 10 now with lebron gone.

Look I know we will never agree and I like to use on court stuff much more anyways but the few people who spew the "best support ever" and "weakest completion ever" just haven't watched or done research on the history of the game. Magic had more talent and a weak west many years. Jordan and arguably the best teams ever had some years with weak east. Bill Russell everyone knows. How about coaching being factored in? Sure this team was stacked and at times had an easy road but it fits right in with teams listed above. Point it out for what it is but don't exaggerate as if its new.

I don't even think that this is some extremely impressive feat either, just saying that this type of support compared to competition has happened before, multiple times. Sure they got there differently than others but it doesn't change the impact once you step on the court. You don't have an advantage in game because you found your own help instead of the fo creating amazing situations.

The example of the 76ers was not a way to help my case for last season it was a current example of this season and a new nba record for worst start in league history.

Also you are comparing a prime Pippen to a far past his prime Wade? so yes I agree I would take prime Pippen also right now.

I'm glad we agree that this is not an amazing feat though but I will make sure to give proof on the east being the worst conference ever in NBA history to make this accomplishment even more ridiculous.

Give me sometime :)

ghettosean
12-15-2014, 03:30 PM
Just add Wade did win a ring as the leader of his squad as a rookie before Lebron and got a finals MVP before his prime. Only adding that in because of your comment about taking Pippen in his prime debate (not that you would be wrong to either it's a tough call but Pippen was not the 2nd best player in the league at the time he wasn't even top 5 as you Rank Wade in my opinion... Jordan, Hakeem, Malone, Barkely... etc were all better and MJ also did not conspire and jump ship to join him anyway) but if your going there where would you rank Horace Grant compared to Chris Bosh? Same skill level?

ghettosean
12-15-2014, 03:38 PM
Durant was the second best player in the league at that time, and Dirk was probably the best PF at that time.

What is your basis to make Durant the 2nd best player in the league at that time as you can see in my last post to Hawkeye I did post some convincing statistics as to why Wade was the 2nd best player in the league including having a better efficiency than Durant. He also took a pathetic bunch of scrubs to the playoffs with his second best player being Jermaine O'neal.

Yes Jermaine O'neal!!!

I'm curious on your perspective regarding Durant being the 2nd best player in the NBA in the 2009-2010 season.

mngopher35
12-15-2014, 03:49 PM
The example of the 76ers was not a way to help my case for last season it was a current example of this season and a new nba record for worst start in league history.

Also you are comparing a prime Pippen to a far past his prime Wade? so yes I agree I would take prime Pippen also right now.

I'm glad we agree that this is not an amazing feat though but I will make sure to give proof on the east being the worst conference ever in NBA history to make this accomplishment even more ridiculous.

Give me sometime :)

Haha alright. I do think that the last two years even have been pretty easy paths, but not the first two. Last year the east was definitely bad (maybe worst ill wait for your info) but by then the heat team really wasn't the same. They are fighting to stay at 500 this season so far while adding deng to replace lebron.

My point is that the heat team isn't as good as the 80s lakers or 90s bulls yet they faced some very weak competition too and it is never brought up. Sure you can argue last year was a bit weaker than the teams they faced but ill counter with so was the supporting cast around lebron in comparison to their teams. Basically it is all subjective but it is a conversation we only have about lebron even though it is generally acknowledged to be true for other greats.

It just so happens some on this site like to do things like this with Kobe and lebron a ton while ignoring context of history and other players etc. how often is Kobe's rank diminished because he is an inefficient chucker? Last I checked his ts was right there with Duncan. How often do we hear "most support ever" for lebron and yet I seem to remember the 80s lakers and 90s bulls around top 10 players (and for longer).

Just call this what it would be, a nice feat but not the most impressive thing any of these greats have accomplished. To get here he had an all time great playoff performance in a game 6 elimination vs Boston. I wouldn't call his performance in that game "easy" and it was part of what would get him the accomplishment.

mngopher35
12-15-2014, 04:07 PM
Just add Wade did win a ring as the leader of his squad as a rookie before Lebron and got a finals MVP before his prime. Only adding that in because of your comment about taking Pippen in his prime debate (not that you would be wrong to either it's a tough call but Pippen was not the 2nd best player in the league at the time he wasn't even top 5 as you Rank Wade in my opinion... Jordan, Hakeem, Malone, Barkely... etc were all better and MJ also did not conspire and jump ship to join him anyway) but if your going there where would you rank Horace Grant compared to Chris Bosh? Same skill level?

I don't just rank support based on an individuals talent. Skills and fit also factor in for me and I think as a 2nd option pippen fit Jordan way better than wade fit lebron (especially having an elite defender). Pippen could score, facilitate and guard the best wing from the other team providing intangibles you want next to a star. Wade kind of overlapped lebron as a ball dominant player and wasn't on that defensive level.

I think bosh is better than grant but that the bulls size and rebounding provided something that plagued the heat teams. Now part of this was to help the offensive spacing and allowing lebron to play pf but I think having a stronger post presence is an even trade off for that (especially the 2nd time with Rodmans presence, less so with grant).

It is all subjective like I said but if you are asking me which team had the better support I would say the bulls and feel comfortable defending it. Same for the 80s lakers. If you asked me was wade the most individually talented player compared to pippen id say yes (for 2011 when they joined, not past couple years). Not as a support player though, I'd take what pippen brings as a 2nd option. For 2013 the year you are claiming was the weakest east I don't even think the support is that comparable with their declining play though.

tredigs
12-15-2014, 04:14 PM
The D Wade talk is silly.

Wade was putting up an efficient 27/5/7 and #2 in WinShares, Box +/-, PER and VORP (all behind LBJ) the year before Lebron came to town. He was basically not only playing at All NBA status, but high end All NBA 1st Team status (recognized as such in coming off b2b 1st team All NBA selections and All D Team selections). He was also a very, very good defender. He was certainly better than KD and objectively had the best case for #2 player in the NBA. At worst you could say he was a lock top 5 player.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-15-2014, 04:21 PM
If you are referring to my post i used ESPN as well and others as you can see in my last post. East was historically bad during Lebrons rain to the finals with his super team against historically bad competition.

The facts are facts regardless of the source.

Lebron best player in the league joined woth the 2nd best player which was Wade at the time and arguably the best PF to face historically bad competition.

These finals appearances is a very impressive accomplishment :clap:

Congratulations Lebron and move over mount rushmore history is being made :clap:

you thought Wade was the 2nd best player in the league? And Bosh was the best PF? You are making that up to fit your agenda dude.

Bleacher report is written by nobodies, it has no merit. It is your opinion that the east was the weakest ever last year. Can you prove it? Do you know enough history?

Kobe and Lebron were top two and wade was a close 3rd, and bosh was easily a top 3 pf. The way they formed a super team was absolute chicken ****.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-15-2014, 04:23 PM
If you are referring to my post i used ESPN as well and others as you can see in my last post. East was historically bad during Lebrons rain to the finals with his super team against historically bad competition.

The facts are facts regardless of the source.

They weren't really facts of anything. Just said what the conference records were against one another. That doesn't begin and end every discussion of ease of championships.

The Cavs aren't playing the Magic and 76ers in the playoffs, and the Spurs aren't playing the Wolves. And that was the depth of the link you shared. All you showed was that the worst teams in the league reside in one conference, and the rest of the league beats up on them.





Lebron best player in the league joined woth the 2nd best player which was Wade at the time and arguably the best PF to face historically bad competition.

This is far from the first time you saw three great players team up, Pierce, Allen, and Garnett just did it and took a ring. Nobody is slamming them for doing it.

Neither of those players were the best in the league, joining a top 3 player and top 3 pf.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-15-2014, 04:24 PM
Kobster ;)

Was the best player in the NBA in 10?him and bron

mngopher35
12-15-2014, 04:29 PM
The D Wade talk is silly.

Wade was putting up an efficient 27/5/7 and #2 in WinShares, Box +/-, PER and VORP (all behind LBJ) the year before Lebron came to town. He was basically not only playing at All NBA status, but high end All NBA 1st Team status (recognized as such in coming off b2b 1st team All NBA selections and All D Team selections). He was also a very, very good defender. He was certainly better than KD and objectively had the best case for #2 player in the NBA. At worst you could say he was a lock top 5 player.

Has anyone been saying outside of top 5? If that is the worst you think can be claimed and everyone has been within that how is it silly?

I think Dwight has a great case when you factor in his defensive presence even if his numbers weren't quite there his overall impact was imo. Some have Kobe as number 1 that year and most have lebron so there is two more. The Kobe argument would be more on the idea of him being the better player still but being older so conserving some energy in the regular season I would guess. I personally would rank him 3rd probably but as long as he is from 2 to say 5 I don't see a huge issue.

ghettosean
12-15-2014, 04:43 PM
Has anyone been saying outside of top 5? If that is the worst you think can be claimed and everyone has been within that how is it silly?

I think Dwight has a great case when you factor in his defensive presence even if his numbers weren't quite there his overall impact was imo. Some have Kobe as number 1 that year and most have lebron so there is two more. The Kobe argument would be more on the idea of him being the better player still but being older so conserving some energy in the regular season I would guess. I personally would rank him 3rd probably but as long as he is from 2 to say 5 I don't see a huge issue.

I agree with your argument for Dwight being #2 but only as an argument but not Durant as Jeffy was claiming.

ghettosean
12-15-2014, 04:47 PM
Kobe and Lebron were top two and wade was a close 3rd, and bosh was easily a top 3 pf. The way they formed a super team was absolute chicken ****.

This is a tough argument also but I say this because it's hard to argue with the Finals MVP and NBA champion that year.

Regular season based on the numbers I'll still stick with Wade though but it's tough I'll admit that.

mngopher35
12-15-2014, 05:07 PM
I agree with your argument for Dwight being #2 but only as an argument but not Durant as Jeffy was claiming.

Ya there are a couple of things for Durant (ppg, rebounding, ts%, ortg, ws/48) but as tre pointed out there are also more numbers for wade and he was the better defender at that point too (playoff performance can be considered too even though only one round). It isn't ridiculous to look at the two and say moving forward I want Durant but solely on 2010 I think Durant was a little bit behind wade.

Hawkeye15
12-15-2014, 05:19 PM
Kobe and Lebron were top two and wade was a close 3rd, and bosh was easily a top 3 pf. The way they formed a super team was absolute chicken ****.

but if a GM does it, he is just smart?

Kobe was top 2? haha, ok.

ghettosean
12-15-2014, 05:57 PM
but if a GM does it, he is just smart?

Kobe was top 2? haha, ok.

So Hawk you never answered my last post who was in your top 3?

I thought gave a pretty convincing arguement at Wade being #2 but you accused me of just fitting an agenda so who is your top 3 in the league at that time (I'm asking your 3 to see if I was very far fetched in my analysis to fit my agenda :) ).

Hawkeye15
12-15-2014, 06:02 PM
So Hawk you never answered my last post who was in your top 3?

I thought gave a pretty convincing arguement at Wade being #2 but you accused me of just fitting an agenda so who is your top 3 in the league at that time (I'm asking your 3 to see if I was very far fetched in my analysis to fit my agenda :) ).

top 3 what, sorry? I didn't see the post man

jerellh528
12-15-2014, 06:57 PM
but if a GM does it, he is just smart?

Kobe was top 2? haha, ok.

I've seen your post in the past that had kobe as top player in 2010. It was probably a year or two ago so I can't find it, but I remember lol. :p

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-15-2014, 07:38 PM
Kobe and Lebron were top two and wade was a close 3rd, and bosh was easily a top 3 pf. The way they formed a super team was absolute chicken ****.

but if a GM does it, he is just smart?

Kobe was top 2? haha, ok.

They colluded like little scared girls. They were petrified of the Celtics and Lakers, so they formed s super team.

Kobe was at minimum number three, with wade and bron.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-15-2014, 07:38 PM
So Hawk you never answered my last post who was in your top 3?

I thought gave a pretty convincing arguement at Wade being #2 but you accused me of just fitting an agenda so who is your top 3 in the league at that time (I'm asking your 3 to see if I was very far fetched in my analysis to fit my agenda :) ).

top 3 what, sorry? I didn't see the post man

Top three players in 2010

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-15-2014, 07:39 PM
but if a GM does it, he is just smart?

Kobe was top 2? haha, ok.

I've seen your post in the past that had kobe as top player in 2010. It was probably a year or two ago so I can't find it, but I remember lol. :p

Lol nice,he'll deny to his death tho.

Hawkeye15
12-15-2014, 08:37 PM
I've seen your post in the past that had kobe as top player in 2010. It was probably a year or two ago so I can't find it, but I remember lol. :p

he was a top player, just not top 2.

Hawkeye15
12-15-2014, 08:37 PM
if you can dig up a post of me saying Kobe was the best player in any given year, show me hahaha. Good luck, I hope you like wasting oodles of time

Hawkeye15
12-15-2014, 08:41 PM
They colluded like little scared girls. They were petrified of the Celtics and Lakers, so they formed s super team.

Kobe was at minimum number three, with wade and bron.

answer the question, if a GM put together a superteam, wouldn't you view that as a great job?

Hawkeye15
12-15-2014, 08:42 PM
Top three players in 2010

which season specifically?

Jeffy25
12-15-2014, 09:47 PM
There is nothing that says that Kobe was a top 2 player in the NBA entering the 2010-2011 season....nothing.

It was Bron and Durant, Durant just broke out and was super young, and Bron was at the top of his game winning MVP's.

He took more shots, yet scored less than Durant and Bron.

He rebounded less, he was less efficient.

His team, with Gasol and Bynum won a chip, yet LeBron, all alone in Cleveland, managed to get 61 wins

you don't have to like PER, but consider this: LeBron won 61 games and managed to loss to the ECF champs without a single team mate putting up an 18 PER, while Kobe had two team mates posting PER's better than 18 (better than 20 in fact), including a team mate in Gasol who posted a higher PER and WS than Kobe himself.



How can a guy not even be the best player on his own team, be the best player in the game?

Imagine if LeBron had a 24.0 PER and 4.3 WS PF/C to play with in the 09-10 playoffs. Especially considering how much better LeBron performed individually than Kobe.

Jeffy25
12-15-2014, 09:53 PM
They colluded like little scared girls. They were petrified of the Celtics and Lakers, so they formed s super team.

Kobe was at minimum number three, with wade and bron.

I find this funny.

Kobe demanded to be traded if they didn't improve the team around him.

They brought him Shaq, Gasol, Dwight Howard, tried to give him Chris Paul.

I mean, what the literal **** here? You guys have ridiculous blinders on.

1. Who cares if they team up? They are far from the first to do it, they still have to go out there and win the games.

2. The guy that you guys hide behind and love to perpetuate false narratives about has an extremely similar history of actions.


Dude forced his way to LA, and then made them bring him superstars or he threatened he would leave. That's better than LeBron going to Miami to join Wade and them having Bosh signed and traded for at the same time?

Seriously?

One is a diva that complains until they team up around him, the other teamed up for the best opportunity to win. Both needed superstars to help them, get over how they did it. They both did it differently than others have done it.

Jeffy25
12-15-2014, 10:09 PM
What is your basis to make Durant the 2nd best player in the league at that time as you can see in my last post to Hawkeye I did post some convincing statistics as to why Wade was the 2nd best player in the league including having a better efficiency than Durant. He also took a pathetic bunch of scrubs to the playoffs with his second best player being Jermaine O'neal.

Yes Jermaine O'neal!!!

I'm curious on your perspective regarding Durant being the 2nd best player in the NBA in the 2009-2010 season.

Durant was third in PER and second in WS that year and got a scoring title with 7.6 boards per game

Did two other players out there do something more impressive than 30.1 PPG, and 7.6 TRB on 26.2 PER and 16.1 WS while playing the most minutes in the game?

Of course he was a top 2 player going into the 2010-2011 season.

Jeffy25
12-15-2014, 10:22 PM
Haha alright. I do think that the last two years even have been pretty easy paths, but not the first two. Last year the east was definitely bad (maybe worst ill wait for your info) but by then the heat team really wasn't the same. They are fighting to stay at 500 this season so far while adding deng to replace lebron.

My point is that the heat team isn't as good as the 80s lakers or 90s bulls yet they faced some very weak competition too and it is never brought up. Sure you can argue last year was a bit weaker than the teams they faced but ill counter with so was the supporting cast around lebron in comparison to their teams. Basically it is all subjective but it is a conversation we only have about lebron even though it is generally acknowledged to be true for other greats.

It just so happens some on this site like to do things like this with Kobe and lebron a ton while ignoring context of history and other players etc. how often is Kobe's rank diminished because he is an inefficient chucker? Last I checked his ts was right there with Duncan. How often do we hear "most support ever" for lebron and yet I seem to remember the 80s lakers and 90s bulls around top 10 players (and for longer).

Just call this what it would be, a nice feat but not the most impressive thing any of these greats have accomplished. To get here he had an all time great playoff performance in a game 6 elimination vs Boston. I wouldn't call his performance in that game "easy" and it was part of what would get him the accomplishment.

I agree with your post, but this is a little deceitful.

People regard Duncan as an all-time great, top 10 player.

But let's not pretend Duncan was some elite shooter. Below 70% free throw shooting, and 50.6% career field goal shooting. While that is strong, that isn't elite by any means. He only had one year inside the top 5 (4th, his rookie year) and 4 other seasons inside the top 10 in field goal shooting and he was never top 10 in the league in true shooting, in fact, he's never even been within 40 points of the top 10 (Kobe either).

Kobe is tied with Jason Terry all time in True Shooting. True shooting is going to favor big guys and guards that get to the line a lot....and it does. Not to things that Kobe has in his pocket, and I don't know that the stat does him any good or bad. But he is basically 150th all time in that stat, I don't think it's something to hang a hat on if you want to argue for Kobe.

jerellh528
12-15-2014, 10:24 PM
There is nothing that says that Kobe was a top 2 player in the NBA entering the 2010-2011 season....nothing.

It was Bron and Durant, Durant just broke out and was super young, and Bron was at the top of his game winning MVP's.

He took more shots, yet scored less than Durant and Bron.

He rebounded less, he was less efficient.

His team, with Gasol and Bynum won a chip, yet LeBron, all alone in Cleveland, managed to get 61 wins

you don't have to like PER, but consider this: LeBron won 61 games and managed to loss to the ECF champs without a single team mate putting up an 18 PER, while Kobe had two team mates posting PER's better than 18 (better than 20 in fact), including a team mate in Gasol who posted a higher PER and WS than Kobe himself.



How can a guy not even be the best player on his own team, be the best player in the game?

Imagine if LeBron had a 24.0 PER and 4.3 WS PF/C to play with in the 09-10 playoffs. Especially considering how much better LeBron performed individually than Kobe.

Davis has a higher per right now than Lebron has ever had. How come he's not leading his squad to 61 wins?

Jeffy25
12-15-2014, 10:31 PM
Davis has a higher per right now than Lebron has ever had. How come he's not leading his squad to 61 wins?

Finally admitting that no one can do it alone?


He also doesn't have the win-shares that Lebron was posting (.293 per 48), Lebron was .299 that year while playing 3000 minutes, while Davis is on pace for 2700 minutes at .293 per 48.

But again, the entire point....is that you can't do it alone. I mentioned the team record because I am certain that the only argument that you guys can think of for Kobe is that the Lakers won a title in 09.

jerellh528
12-15-2014, 10:35 PM
Finally admitting that no one can do it alone?


He also doesn't have the win-shares that Lebron was posting (.293 per 48), Lebron was .299 that year while playing 3000 minutes, while Davis is on pace for 2700 minutes at .293 per 48.

But again, the entire point....is that you can't do it alone. I mentioned the team record because I am certain that the only argument that you guys can think of for Kobe is that the Lakers won a title in 09.

But you said Lebron was all alone on that 61 win team. Ninja edit: it's just weird because you're using per to say why Lebron was so good on that 61 win team but davis has higher per and better stats but his team is floundering. So I can't decide whether per isn't as good of a judge of impact as you think it is, or if lebrons squad was better than you think it was

ghettosean
12-15-2014, 10:38 PM
Top three players in 2010

which season specifically?

He's referring to this post...



you thought Wade was the 2nd best player in the league? And Bosh was the best PF? You are making that up to fit your agenda dude.

Bleacher report is written by nobodies, it has no merit. It is your opinion that the east was the weakest ever last year. Can you prove it? Do you know enough history?

Who is in your top 3 in the NBA when Miami formed?

I'm curious as to who you have as the best in the league at that time so it doesn't fit my agenda.

Also keep in mind Wade had this on his roster and made the 5 seed in the east that was more balanced at that time before they big 3 formed (see the joke of a roster below).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2010.html


- He was also in the top 5 for votes for MVP
http://www.nba.com/2010/news/05/02/james.mvp/

- He was also #2 in PER that year behind Lebron James
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/year/2010


Anyway just curious on your thoughts on who's in your top 3 the year before James and Wade came together to crush the pathetic eastern conference.

Let me know who your top 3 were as I gave you some efficiency and team success with Wade since I'm just trying to fit my agenda :rolleyes:



FYI:

Bosh I said was arguably the best PF in the league at that time and you could argue he was but you are entitled to your own opinion on that.

I'll address the pitiful eastern conference after you respond.

tredigs
12-15-2014, 11:25 PM
Durant was third in PER and second in WS that year and got a scoring title with 7.6 boards per game

Did two other players out there do something more impressive than 30.1 PPG, and 7.6 TRB on 26.2 PER and 16.1 WS while playing the most minutes in the game?

Of course he was a top 2 player going into the 2010-2011 season.

Yes. My post answers that.

flea
12-15-2014, 11:36 PM
I am going to take this moment to explain why TS% should be used with more care than it is sometimes. It is not useless (like PER), but it is hardly an all-inclusive efficiency metric that some people want it to be. If you really want to compare guards with bigs you should use eFG%. FTA is just something altogether different, and sort of unique to the NBA. This is the league of star calls, something not even the biggest defender of NBA officiating would deny. I'm not here to get into the merits of "star calls" (my opinions are documented here in the past) but it is something different, and should be treated as such.

Duncan's TS% is lower than a lot of bigs that play exclusively at the rim. On face that seems obvious, but when people compare his efficiency with guys like Howard and Dirk in the same breath I think something is lost. Duncan is a very good midrange shooter. This is why he is considered by a PF to this day, he plays like one on the offensive end. (Sidenote: who you defend has very little to do with what position you play.) He plays face-up like Aldridge, and has very similar midrange rates and efficiency throughout his career as Aldridge. Spend any time looking at +/- stats and you'll understand how much TS% and eFG% underrate the offensive impact of guys (particularly bigs) who own the midrange. Now, Duncan is not Dirk in the midrange. But neither is Aldridge, or really anybody (dude boasts 47% from 10 feet to the 3 point line).

What separates Duncan's elite offensive impact from Aldridge is his back to the basket work. He's still one of the best in the league in low post, and is a historic great down there. But he plays a significant portion of his career in the mid-range, because it's better for his team's offense and his own endurance. Aldridge isn't much in the low post, puts up relatively mediocre FG% rates, and yet is a hugely impactful offensive player. It's because of this midrange dominance, something that Duncan has always provided his teams as well.

Duncan's TS% underrates what he does because what he does is everything (almost). He has an elite face-up game, spot-up mid range game, and low post game. He is an elite offensive rebounder/putback guy. As he aged he became elite in pick and rolls. Doing so much of your work away from the basket will naturally lower your raw TS% and FG% rates unless you are also hitting 3s or creating off the dribble in the post-Jordan era. It doesn't mean you aren't as efficient as guys like Tyson Chandler and Dwight Howard.

Remember your Pauli Exclusion Principle when talking offense: no two basketball players can occupy the same space at the same time. This means you, ballstopping Howard!

Hawkeye15
12-15-2014, 11:42 PM
He's referring to this post...




Who is in your top 3 in the NBA when Miami formed?

I'm curious as to who you have as the best in the league at that time so it doesn't fit my agenda.

Also keep in mind Wade had this on his roster and made the 5 seed in the east that was more balanced at that time before they big 3 formed (see the joke of a roster below).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2010.html


- He was also in the top 5 for votes for MVP
http://www.nba.com/2010/news/05/02/james.mvp/

- He was also #2 in PER that year behind Lebron James
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/year/2010


Anyway just curious on your thoughts on who's in your top 3 the year before James and Wade came together to crush the pathetic eastern conference.


Let me know who your top 3 were as I gave you some efficiency and team success with Wade since I'm just trying to fit my agenda :rolleyes:



FYI:

Bosh I said was arguably the best PF in the league at that time and you could argue he was but you are entitled to your own opinion on that.

I'll address the pitiful eastern conference after you respond.

what season are you asking about, in reference to their rankings? The season before they all joined?

ghettosean
12-15-2014, 11:45 PM
He's referring to this post...




Who is in your top 3 in the NBA when Miami formed?

I'm curious as to who you have as the best in the league at that time so it doesn't fit my agenda.

Also keep in mind Wade had this on his roster and made the 5 seed in the east that was more balanced at that time before they big 3 formed (see the joke of a roster below).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2010.html


- He was also in the top 5 for votes for MVP
http://www.nba.com/2010/news/05/02/james.mvp/

- He was also #2 in PER that year behind Lebron James
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/year/2010


Anyway just curious on your thoughts on who's in your top 3 the year before James and Wade came together to crush the pathetic eastern conference.


Let me know who your top 3 were as I gave you some efficiency and team success with Wade since I'm just trying to fit my agenda :rolleyes:



FYI:

Bosh I said was arguably the best PF in the league at that time and you could argue he was but you are entitled to your own opinion on that.

I'll address the pitiful eastern conference after you respond.

what season are you asking about, in reference to their rankings? The season before they all joined?

All the links above are linked to 2009 - 2010 season... that's the season I'm referring too.

andy2518
12-15-2014, 11:46 PM
Durant was top five in the 2011 season. My pick for best in the league was Wade. Dirk or Durant for number two. It's pretty debatable.

andy2518
12-15-2014, 11:49 PM
There is nothing that says that Kobe was a top 2 player in the NBA entering the 2010-2011 season....nothing.

It was Bron and Durant, Durant just broke out and was super young, and Bron was at the top of his game winning MVP's.

He took more shots, yet scored less than Durant and Bron.

He rebounded less, he was less efficient.

His team, with Gasol and Bynum won a chip, yet LeBron, all alone in Cleveland, managed to get 61 wins

you don't have to like PER, but consider this: LeBron won 61 games and managed to loss to the ECF champs without a single team mate putting up an 18 PER, while Kobe had two team mates posting PER's better than 18 (better than 20 in fact), including a team mate in Gasol who posted a higher PER and WS than Kobe himself.



How can a guy not even be the best player on his own team, be the best player in the game?

Imagine if LeBron had a 24.0 PER and 4.3 WS PF/C to play with in the 09-10 playoffs. Especially considering how much better LeBron performed individually than Kobe.

I would say that being the best player on a championship squad holds a lot of weight. Pretty close between Bron and Kobe that year. It was the last season Kobe had an argument for best in the NBA I would agree though.

Jeffy25
12-15-2014, 11:51 PM
I would say that being the best player on a championship squad holds a lot of weight. Pretty close between Bron and Kobe that year. It was the last season Kobe had an argument for best in the NBA I would agree though.

Expect Pau was just as good and productive as Kobe in both the regular season and playoffs for that chip run. No way Kobe wins that ring without Pau

tredigs
12-15-2014, 11:59 PM
With Durant, you have to also remember that he wasn't yet a good defender. That came around somewhat in 2011, then was noticeably improved coming into the 2011/12 4 years ago.

mngopher35
12-15-2014, 11:59 PM
I agree with your post, but this is a little deceitful.

People regard Duncan as an all-time great, top 10 player.

But let's not pretend Duncan was some elite shooter. Below 70% free throw shooting, and 50.6% career field goal shooting. While that is strong, that isn't elite by any means. He only had one year inside the top 5 (4th, his rookie year) and 4 other seasons inside the top 10 in field goal shooting and he was never top 10 in the league in true shooting, in fact, he's never even been within 40 points of the top 10 (Kobe either).

Kobe is tied with Jason Terry all time in True Shooting. True shooting is going to favor big guys and guards that get to the line a lot....and it does. Not to things that Kobe has in his pocket, and I don't know that the stat does him any good or bad. But he is basically 150th all time in that stat, I don't think it's something to hang a hat on if you want to argue for Kobe.

Well my point wasn't to use that to say he is the most efficient scorer or even near the top iust in efficiency. With his volume he isn't really picking and choosing when to shoot as much as a player like Duncan is allowed on the spurs. That plus some ill advised shots is plenty to hurt his percentages yet he was right there in his true shooting efficiency.

I am just pointing out that some on here point to his efficiency as a huge negative yet with all the ill advised shots, late in the shot clock shots, and volume of scoring in general his ts% is still there with an all time great big man. I am not hanging my hat on it to say in a comparison but also would bring it up when someone is bashing it as a huge negative.

Wasn't trying to be deceitful at all or make any comparison between the two as players. An inefficient chucker doesn't have that type of shooting efficiency with that volume though, like I said. It is just something some on this site say to bash him, like they do with lebron and the "most support ever" or "worst competition ever" comments. There is some truth in there but it gets greatly exaggerated when it comes to these two.

andy2518
12-16-2014, 12:05 AM
Expect Pau was just as good and productive as Kobe in both the regular season and playoffs for that chip run. No way Kobe wins that ring without Pau

Making others around you better is a top notch attribute I agree.

Jeffy25
12-16-2014, 12:07 AM
Making others around you better is a top notch attribute I agree.

Except Pau was the same player he had been his entire career. It didn't change for him. Pau is a very solid contributor and Kobe had begun his slight decline already.

Chronz
12-16-2014, 12:32 AM
This thread has been an interesting read as i ride the bus home. Thx guys. Kinda makes me not miss my car

jerellh528
12-16-2014, 12:38 AM
This thread has been an interesting read as i ride the bus home. Thx guys. Kinda makes me not miss my car

Where in la are you?

Chronz
12-16-2014, 12:41 AM
Where in la are you?
As we speak?
Redondo beach playa

jerellh528
12-16-2014, 12:44 AM
As we speak?
Redondo beach playa

Nice, my uncle has a house out there. Fond memories at redondo!

Hawkeye15
12-16-2014, 12:51 AM
All the links above are linked to 2009 - 2010 season... that's the season I'm referring too.

LeBron best player in the game.

Wade was top 3 player for sure. Bosh was a top 25 player, in his peak.

So, what does any of that have to do with what happened following?

I would still take Dwight that year over Wade for sure (the year prior to join), and Bosh? Not even a top 15ish player.

Again though, why ignore what they became?

Chronz
12-16-2014, 01:03 AM
Nice, my uncle has a house out there. Fond memories at redondo!
I just work out here. Im riding The bus towards temple city. Talking to a cutie right now ( she on her phone tho) . main reason i love the bus.
Edit;
Dude i just got a free brew from This stranger

jerellh528
12-16-2014, 01:19 AM
I just work out here. Im riding The bus towards temple city. Talking to a cutie right now ( she on her phone tho) . main reason i love the bus.
Edit;
Dude i just got a free brew from This stranger

Haha, crazy man. Was it craft? I don't take the bus but my girlfriend's dad oversees the transit system at ucla. I bet there's tons of cuties on those routes.

Chronz
12-16-2014, 04:40 AM
Haha, crazy man. Was it craft? I don't take the bus but my girlfriend's dad oversees the transit system at ucla. I bet there's tons of cuties on those routes.

Craft? On the bus? LOL I wish. Still fun tho. Finally home.

ghettosean
12-16-2014, 06:18 PM
LeBron best player in the game.

Wade was top 3 player for sure. Bosh was a top 25 player, in his peak.

So, what does any of that have to do with what happened following?

I would still take Dwight that year over Wade for sure (the year prior to join), and Bosh? Not even a top 15ish player.

Again though, why ignore what they became?

As far as the thread goes Lebron teamed up with at least a Top 3 player/best SG in the league and one of (if not the best) PF in the league at the time to beat up on the pathetic eastern conference one of the worst in NBA history in fact so to say that Lebron made such a significant accomplishment as in making it to the finals 4 straight times is ridiculous. If you formed a super team (basically running away from home to play with the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league and a top PF in the league) and beat up on the worst competition the league has seen in its history to make the finals 4 times in a row how is that a great accomplishment? I just don't see the bragging rights in a cake walk to the finals multiple times and how the accomplishment holds any weight which is why I was saying you comparing this to the eastern conference in Jordans era is apples to oranges.

I just think that everyone gives Lebron too much credit for these petty accomplishments like this and to set the record straight he then left to join up with a top 7 player/Best PF in the league and one of the best PG's in the league.

Everyone watch out because history is being made!!!

ghettosean
12-16-2014, 06:24 PM
There is nothing that says that Kobe was a top 2 player in the NBA entering the 2010-2011 season....nothing.

It was Bron and Durant, Durant just broke out and was super young, and Bron was at the top of his game winning MVP's.

He took more shots, yet scored less than Durant and Bron.

He rebounded less, he was less efficient.

His team, with Gasol and Bynum won a chip, yet LeBron, all alone in Cleveland, managed to get 61 wins

you don't have to like PER, but consider this: LeBron won 61 games and managed to loss to the ECF champs without a single team mate putting up an 18 PER, while Kobe had two team mates posting PER's better than 18 (better than 20 in fact), including a team mate in Gasol who posted a higher PER and WS than Kobe himself.



How can a guy not even be the best player on his own team, be the best player in the game?

Imagine if LeBron had a 24.0 PER and 4.3 WS PF/C to play with in the 09-10 playoffs. Especially considering how much better LeBron performed individually than Kobe.


Davis has a higher per right now than Lebron has ever had. How come he's not leading his squad to 61 wins?


Finally admitting that no one can do it alone?


He also doesn't have the win-shares that Lebron was posting (.293 per 48), Lebron was .299 that year while playing 3000 minutes, while Davis is on pace for 2700 minutes at .293 per 48.

But again, the entire point....is that you can't do it alone. I mentioned the team record because I am certain that the only argument that you guys can think of for Kobe is that the Lakers won a title in 09.


But you said Lebron was all alone on that 61 win team. Ninja edit: it's just weird because you're using per to say why Lebron was so good on that 61 win team but davis has higher per and better stats but his team is floundering. So I can't decide whether per isn't as good of a judge of impact as you think it is, or if lebrons squad was better than you think it was

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Well said I followed that back and forth...

People think you can tell the whole story of a team by using stats and mathematics but numbers just don't tell the whole story.

Well said indeed!!!

ghettosean
12-16-2014, 06:30 PM
Durant was third in PER and second in WS that year and got a scoring title with 7.6 boards per game

Did two other players out there do something more impressive than 30.1 PPG, and 7.6 TRB on 26.2 PER and 16.1 WS while playing the most minutes in the game?

Of course he was a top 2 player going into the 2010-2011 season.

Wades stats were better including a better efficiency and was better defensively on top of taking a drugged up Beasley and a handicapped Jermaine O'neal to become a 5th seed to go into the playoffs all on his back. Durant had Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka to share some of the burden to get them to the 8th seed to make the playoffs.

We may just differ on this opinion but Lebron teamed up with the 2nd best player in the league (if we can't agree on that we can at least say the best SG) at the time as far as I can see with one of the best PF's to coast to the finals those 4 years on top of clobbering some of the worst competition the league has seen.

Move over mount rushmore Lebron is coming :clap:

Jeffy25
12-16-2014, 06:32 PM
Wades stats were better including a better efficiency and was better defensively on top of taking a drugged up Beasley and a handicapped Jermaine O'neal to become a 5th seed to go into the playoffs all on his back. Durant had Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka to share some of the burden to get them to the 8th seed to make the playoffs.

Westbrook was 21 in his second season and posted a 17 PER, harden and Ibaka were 20 posting 15 and 14 PER

Let's not act like a team of four 22 years olds is supposed to light the world on fire already.

The fact they got an 8 seed with that many kids playing that many minutes is impressive, and they got it because Durant was a beast.

ghettosean
12-16-2014, 06:37 PM
Westbrook was 21 in his second season and posted a 17 PER, harden and Ibaka were 20 posting 15 and 14 PER

Let's not act like a team of four 22 years olds is supposed to light the world on fire already.

The fact they got an 8 seed with that many kids playing that many minutes is impressive, and they got it because Durant was a beast.

And Wade haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad????

I'll wait...

Jeffy25
12-16-2014, 06:38 PM
And Wade haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad????

I'll wait...

Beasley and o'Neal posted better seasons than anyone playing with Durant.

ghettosean
12-16-2014, 06:49 PM
Huge difference you are right!

2009 - 2010 PER

Jermaine O'neal PER 17.92
Russell Westbrook PER 17.90

Main difference is Russell was played

-more games
-more minutes
-scored more points
-more assists
-while getting close to the same amount of rebounds as Jermaine.

Not bad for a kid who wasn't much as Wade's #2.

mngopher35
12-16-2014, 06:49 PM
As far as the thread goes Lebron teamed up with at least a Top 3 player/best SG in the league and one of (if not the best) PF in the league at the time to beat up on the pathetic eastern conference one of the worst in NBA history in fact so to say that Lebron made such a significant accomplishment as in making it to the finals 4 straight times is ridiculous. If you formed a super team (basically running away from home to play with the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league and a top PF in the league) and beat up on the worst competition the league has seen in its history to make the finals 4 times in a row how is that a great accomplishment? I just don't see the bragging rights in a cake walk to the finals multiple times and how the accomplishment holds any weight which is why I was saying you comparing this to the eastern conference in Jordans era is apples to oranges.

I just think that everyone gives Lebron too much credit for these petty accomplishments like this and to set the record straight he then left to join up with a top 7 player/Best PF in the league and one of the best PG's in the league.

Everyone watch out because history is being made!!!

Still want to point out that when they joined they played the Bulls and the Celtics (top 2 teams in defensive efficiency) to make the finals. When those players were still that good they actually had some tough teams to go through to make the finals. The next year it was still Boston and Indy but without Bosh for most of it. As those players aged and got injured the competition went down no doubt due to celtics breaking up by 2013 and Bulls losing Rose to injury. That is why I said the first two years were somewhat impressive but the last two haven't been as much.

So while last year might have been the weakest east ever (still haven't seen what you came up with to prove this?) it wasn't while those players were nearly the same players. Jordan's had easier years than 2011 competition in the east as did Magic's lakers in the west, both with better supporting casts as well (imo). For some reason this never ever gets brought up with those guys though.

Once again not trying to prove that this is some amazing feat that propels lebron past these guys but then again I haven't seen many making a claim like that. Just pointing out that when they joined as top players the East was tougher than last season so you yourself are comparing apples to oranges there.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-16-2014, 07:08 PM
There is nothing that says that Kobe was a top 2 player in the NBA entering the 2010-2011 season....nothing.

It was Bron and Durant, Durant just broke out and was super young, and Bron was at the top of his game winning MVP's.

He took more shots, yet scored less than Durant and Bron.

He rebounded less, he was less efficient.

His team, with Gasol and Bynum won a chip, yet LeBron, all alone in Cleveland, managed to get 61 wins

you don't have to like PER, but consider this: LeBron won 61 games and managed to loss to the ECF champs without a single team mate putting up an 18 PER, while Kobe had two team mates posting PER's better than 18 (better than 20 in fact), including a team mate in Gasol who posted a higher PER and WS than Kobe himself.



How can a guy not even be the best player on his own team, be the best player in the game?

Imagine if LeBron had a 24.0 PER and 4.3 WS PF/C to play with in the 09-10 playoffs. Especially considering how much better LeBron performed individually than Kobe.

I would say that being the best player on a championship squad holds a lot of weight. Pretty close between Bron and Kobe that year. It was the last season Kobe had an argument for best in the NBA I would agree though.

Precisely

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-16-2014, 07:10 PM
Making others around you better is a top notch attribute I agree.

Except Pau was the same player he had been his entire career. It didn't change for him. Pau is a very solid contributor and Kobe had begun his slight decline already.

Bs, Pau was a nobody before kobe turned him into a superstar. He didn't win a playoff game for a reason.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-16-2014, 07:11 PM
This thread has been an interesting read as i ride the bus home. Thx guys. Kinda makes me not miss my car

Why don't you use your financial aid money you get for going to school?

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-16-2014, 07:15 PM
LeBron best player in the game.

Wade was top 3 player for sure. Bosh was a top 25 player, in his peak.

So, what does any of that have to do with what happened following?

I would still take Dwight that year over Wade for sure (the year prior to join), and Bosh? Not even a top 15ish player.

Again though, why ignore what they became?

As far as the thread goes Lebron teamed up with at least a Top 3 player/best SG in the league and one of (if not the best) PF in the league at the time to beat up on the pathetic eastern conference one of the worst in NBA history in fact so to say that Lebron made such a significant accomplishment as in making it to the finals 4 straight times is ridiculous. If you formed a super team (basically running away from home to play with the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league and a top PF in the league) and beat up on the worst competition the league has seen in its history to make the finals 4 times in a row how is that a great accomplishment? I just don't see the bragging rights in a cake walk to the finals multiple times and how the accomplishment holds any weight which is why I was saying you comparing this to the eastern conference in Jordans era is apples to oranges.

I just think that everyone gives Lebron too much credit for these petty accomplishments like this and to set the record straight he then left to join up with a top 7 player/Best PF in the league and one of the best PG's in the league.

Everyone watch out because history is being made!!!

Ghettosean ftw

mngopher35
12-16-2014, 07:32 PM
Bs, Pau was a nobody before kobe turned him into a superstar. He didn't win a playoff game for a reason.

Wow, normally I try to just ignore you but wow. Pau was a basically a 20/10 player before joining the lakers and put up a 24.1 PER as well in 2007 (even after slow start coming back from broken foot). Yes the lakers had more talent (Kobe is biggest part) and better coaching to help him get further in the playoffs. This doesn't mean that he was a nobody before Kobe, just a great player on a bad team (I think his last full season on Grizzlies he was even an all-star).

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-16-2014, 08:13 PM
Bs, Pau was a nobody before kobe turned him into a superstar. He didn't win a playoff game for a reason.

Wow, normally I try to just ignore you but wow. Pau was a basically a 20/10 player before joining the lakers and put up a 24.1 PER as well in 2007 (even after slow start coming back from broken foot). Yes the lakers had more talent (Kobe is biggest part) and better coaching to help him get further in the playoffs. This doesn't mean that he was a nobody before Kobe, just a great player on a bad team (I think his last full season on Grizzlies he was even an all-star).

"nobody" is obviously a stretch, but pau wasn't considered a top player like he was in la. He was also notorious for being soft and bad on the defensive end. Had he not gone to La, I don't think too many of us would consider him to be the player we now know him as.

mngopher35
12-16-2014, 08:18 PM
"nobody" is obviously a stretch, but pau wasn't considered a top player like he was in la. He was also notorious for being soft and bad on the defensive end. Had he not gone to La, I don't think too many of us would consider him to be the player we now know him as.

I still heard some talk about how he is/was soft in la. I can kind of agree since winning a championship and playing on the lakers will definitely boost a players profile and espn time etc.

He was far from nothing though and most people definitely were aware he was a good player on a bad team at the time. You literally claimed that he was nothing before Kobe turned him into a superstar when in reality he had already shown his ability before making it to la.

Hawkeye15
12-16-2014, 08:34 PM
As far as the thread goes Lebron teamed up with at least a Top 3 player/best SG in the league and one of (if not the best) PF in the league at the time to beat up on the pathetic eastern conference one of the worst in NBA history in fact so to say that Lebron made such a significant accomplishment as in making it to the finals 4 straight times is ridiculous. If you formed a super team (basically running away from home to play with the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league and a top PF in the league) and beat up on the worst competition the league has seen in its history to make the finals 4 times in a row how is that a great accomplishment? I just don't see the bragging rights in a cake walk to the finals multiple times and how the accomplishment holds any weight which is why I was saying you comparing this to the eastern conference in Jordans era is apples to oranges.

I just think that everyone gives Lebron too much credit for these petty accomplishments like this and to set the record straight he then left to join up with a top 7 player/Best PF in the league and one of the best PG's in the league.

Everyone watch out because history is being made!!!

1- you can formulate any opinion you like regarding his departure in FA, after fulfilling his contract in Cleveland.
2- you continue to ignore my question. How did those guys do during their championship runs? Do you really think Wade was the 2nd best player in the game during those runs, and that Bosh was the top PF?
3- yet again, I will ask you, and delusional. If a GM puts together a super team (Lakers, Spurs, Bulls, Celtics), it's ok, right? But if a player does, it's wrong?

JordansBulls
12-16-2014, 08:43 PM
1- you can formulate any opinion you like regarding his departure in FA, after fulfilling his contract in Cleveland.
2- you continue to ignore my question. How did those guys do during their championship runs? Do you really think Wade was the 2nd best player in the game during those runs, and that Bosh was the top PF?
3- yet again, I will ask you, and delusional. If a GM puts together a super team (Lakers, Spurs, Bulls, Celtics), it's ok, right? But if a player does, it's wrong?

Miami's Big 3 in the NBA Finals in 2011

Wade
26.5 PPG / 7.0 RPG / 5.2 APG / 1.5 SPG / 1.5 BPG / 2.5 TPG / 54.6% FG / 30.4% 3 PT FG / 69.4% FT


Bosh
18.5 PPG / 7.3 RPG / 1.0 APG / 0.33 SPG / 0.50 BPG / 2.17 TPG / 41.3% FG / 0.00% 3 PT FG / 77.8% FT


Lebron
17.8 PPG / 7.2 RPG / 6.8 APG / 1.67 SPG / 0.50 BPG / 4.0 TPG / 47.8% FG / 32.1% 3 PT FG / 60.0% FT

Lebron was the reason they lost the title.

You can't the Bulls or Spurs superteams unless you are referring to the 1999 Spurs only. Bulls had one star from the get go, another guy developed into one later on. Just like both Parker and Manu developed into stars later on. Wade and Bosh were already superstars, the #2 and #4 guys in PER before joining up and franchise players. That is totally different. Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving were already superstars as well and were franchise players. I'll give you the Celtics and Lakers though.

Jeffy25
12-16-2014, 09:43 PM
Huge difference you are right!

2009 - 2010 PER

Jermaine O'neal PER 17.92
Russell Westbrook PER 17.90

Main difference is Russell was played

-more games
-more minutes
-scored more points
-more assists
-while getting close to the same amount of rebounds as Jermaine.

Not bad for a kid who wasn't much as Wade's #2.

Do you remember the original argument?

Jeffy25
12-16-2014, 09:49 PM
Bs, Pau was a nobody before kobe turned him into a superstar. He didn't win a playoff game for a reason.

Because he had awful team mates who were worse than Bynum and Kobe?

Pau was always the same player from his second year of his career throughout these chips.

Kobe didn't turn Pau into a superstar. Kobe and LA got him a brighter spotlight. But Pau didn't get to play with good players in Memphis. I think it's obvious why Pau didn't win a chip before going to LA.

Lamar Odom, Kobe Bryant, Pau Gasol, and Andrew Bynum. That's a great starting four, with Kobe and Pau clearly the two beset players, and Bynum and Lamar both being excellent, above average starters

You think Pau can win in Memphis with Mike Miller as his only help?

Hawkeye15
12-16-2014, 09:53 PM
Miami's Big 3 in the NBA Finals in 2011

Wade
26.5 PPG / 7.0 RPG / 5.2 APG / 1.5 SPG / 1.5 BPG / 2.5 TPG / 54.6% FG / 30.4% 3 PT FG / 69.4% FT


Bosh
18.5 PPG / 7.3 RPG / 1.0 APG / 0.33 SPG / 0.50 BPG / 2.17 TPG / 41.3% FG / 0.00% 3 PT FG / 77.8% FT


Lebron
17.8 PPG / 7.2 RPG / 6.8 APG / 1.67 SPG / 0.50 BPG / 4.0 TPG / 47.8% FG / 32.1% 3 PT FG / 60.0% FT

Lebron was the reason they lost the title.

You can't the Bulls or Spurs superteams unless you are referring to the 1999 Spurs only. Bulls had one star from the get go, another guy developed into one later on. Just like both Parker and Manu developed into stars later on. Wade and Bosh were already superstars, the #2 and #4 guys in PER before joining up and franchise players. That is totally different. Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving were already superstars as well and were franchise players. I'll give you the Celtics and Lakers though.

you looked over the question. I asked what support were those bad ***** when they won 2 titles.

eibbor
12-16-2014, 09:54 PM
Stupid question really. No.

Crackadalic
12-16-2014, 10:14 PM
Can there ever be a sound logical debate about this lol

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-16-2014, 10:18 PM
"nobody" is obviously a stretch, but pau wasn't considered a top player like he was in la. He was also notorious for being soft and bad on the defensive end. Had he not gone to La, I don't think too many of us would consider him to be the player we now know him as.

I still heard some talk about how he is/was soft in la. I can kind of agree since winning a championship and playing on the lakers will definitely boost a players profile and espn time etc.

He was far from nothing though and most people definitely were aware he was a good player on a bad team at the time. You literally claimed that he was nothing before Kobe turned him into a superstar when in reality he had already shown his ability before making it to la.

I didn't mean it literal. Kobe definitely made pau a superstar tho. I miss the days where kobe and gasol would do a pick b roll that led to pau dunking and screaming after the play. He played the best basketball of his life with kobe from 2007-2010. Some would call it a coincidence, but I feel like kobe brought the best out in pau.

mngopher35
12-16-2014, 10:54 PM
I didn't mean it literal. Kobe definitely made pau a superstar tho. I miss the days where kobe and gasol would do a pick b roll that led to pau dunking and screaming after the play. He played the best basketball of his life with kobe from 2007-2010. Some would call it a coincidence, but I feel like kobe brought the best out in pau.

Pau's peak/prime was from about 06-11 which happens to be age 25-30 when most players hit it. It started before he ever played with Kobe and he was still an efficient 20-10 player then. Yes playing on the LAKERS helped him get all of the stuff you said but as usual you attribute it all to Kobe when other factors were just as if not more important (prime age, Phil, great front court help). Sure Kobe helped him and maybe even developed him a bit but your initial statement was way off. He was still playing with Kobe after Phil left and he was getting older and look what happened.

ghettosean
12-17-2014, 12:23 AM
Huge difference you are right!

2009 - 2010 PER

Jermaine O'neal PER 17.92
Russell Westbrook PER 17.90

Main difference is Russell was played

-more games
-more minutes
-scored more points
-more assists
-while getting close to the same amount of rebounds as Jermaine.

Not bad for a kid who wasn't much as Wade's #2.

Do you remember the original argument?

Sorry typed in a rush before work but if that's the best you got to defend your argument it means you got nothing.

As far as Wades supporting cast was better than Durants... Also you realize you SOLELY believe Durant was the best player in the league behind Lebron that year. You should be overjoyed i made a spelling error so you can stop defending your silly arguement.

You needed a gimmie so take it because stats and facts were working against you.

Chronz
12-17-2014, 12:30 AM
Why don't you use your financial aid money you get for going to school?
For the same reason you don't use your brain.

It doesn't exist

ghettosean
12-17-2014, 01:08 AM
As far as the thread goes Lebron teamed up with at least a Top 3 player/best SG in the league and one of (if not the best) PF in the league at the time to beat up on the pathetic eastern conference one of the worst in NBA history in fact so to say that Lebron made such a significant accomplishment as in making it to the finals 4 straight times is ridiculous. If you formed a super team (basically running away from home to play with the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league and a top PF in the league) and beat up on the worst competition the league has seen in its history to make the finals 4 times in a row how is that a great accomplishment? I just don't see the bragging rights in a cake walk to the finals multiple times and how the accomplishment holds any weight which is why I was saying you comparing this to the eastern conference in Jordans era is apples to oranges.

I just think that everyone gives Lebron too much credit for these petty accomplishments like this and to set the record straight he then left to join up with a top 7 player/Best PF in the league and one of the best PG's in the league.

Everyone watch out because history is being made!!!

1- you can formulate any opinion you like regarding his departure in FA, after fulfilling his contract in Cleveland.
2- you continue to ignore my question. How did those guys do during their championship runs? Do you really think Wade was the 2nd best player in the game during those runs, and that Bosh was the top PF?
3- yet again, I will ask you, and delusional. If a GM puts together a super team (Lakers, Spurs, Bulls, Celtics), it's ok, right? But if a player does, it's wrong?



As far as the thread goes Lebron teamed up with at least a Top 3 player/best SG in the league and one of (if not the best) PF in the league at the time to beat up on the pathetic eastern conference one of the worst in NBA history in fact so to say that Lebron made such a significant accomplishment as in making it to the finals 4 straight times is ridiculous. If you formed a super team (basically running away from home to play with the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league and a top PF in the league) and beat up on the worst competition the league has seen in its history to make the finals 4 times in a row how is that a great accomplishment? I just don't see the bragging rights in a cake walk to the finals multiple times and how the accomplishment holds any weight which is why I was saying you comparing this to the eastern conference in Jordans era is apples to oranges.

I just think that everyone gives Lebron too much credit for these petty accomplishments like this and to set the record straight he then left to join up with a top 7 player/Best PF in the league and one of the best PG's in the league.

Everyone watch out because history is being made!!!

1- you can formulate any opinion you like regarding his departure in FA, after fulfilling his contract in Cleveland.
2- you continue to ignore my question. How did those guys do during their championship runs? Do you really think Wade was the 2nd best player in the game during those runs, and that Bosh was the top PF?
3- yet again, I will ask you, and delusional. If a GM puts together a super team (Lakers, Spurs, Bulls, Celtics), it's ok, right? But if a player does, it's wrong?

1-Thanks... i was also referring to his departure from Miami as well as Cleveland in free agency and the commonality between them in but well focus on when he left Cleveland. My opinion is he ran away from home after promising his fanbase he would stay and win a ship for Cleveland before he left for any other team or is that a fact??? (Yeah its a fact) He ran away to join the 2nd best player in the league or as you say the 3rd (you may agree with Jeffy and think Durant was #2) and Bosh to win some easy ships.

2-Bosh obviously regressed to make things work as we can see with his increased production post Lebron not to mention that other GMs saw this as well since he was offered a max contract by Houston and his current team in Miami. It's easy to over look how great a PF he is and was when he sacrificed his game to make things work in Miami.

As for Wade you can see from the averages in Jordan's Bulls posted that I don't think Wade was the 2nd best player when Lebron joined him in Miami WADE WAS THE BEST PLAYER on the court, as a leader and in the locker room.

(Let me know if you want some clips of Wade yelling at Lebron telling him to get gis sheeeeit together... I'll gladly post some for you... But Lebron was the man)


3-My responses were in answer to the OPs post on Lebrons esteemed accomplishment of getting to the finals 4 consecutive times in a historically bad conference with a super team I stand by what i said. No need to change the subject but we can debate that in a new thread if you want.

As I've been saying though Lebron making it to the finals multiple times with a super team versus a historically bad eastern conference is not much of a feat but for those who disagree can still view him as LEGENDARY.

History is being made people and if you close your eyes you might just miss it.

Chrisclover
12-17-2014, 11:08 AM
Le Bald James. The distance between him and others is not just a hair.

Chrisclover
12-17-2014, 11:40 AM
I really can't believe how everyone keeps on overlooking James Jones. He is in the position to make his 5th straight final appearance. This is something that we won't see again until all the next time 3 stars get together behind the scenes and join forces. etc.

Think it will start to be more common then the OP suggests. Which I think is hurting the NBA more then helping it but oh well.
I really can't believe how everyone keeps on overlooking Derek Fisher. He has won 5 rings yet nobody cares. Totally unfair.