James Harden, Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler and Demar Derozan

[chi-townlove1]

I've stayed quiet on the progress that butler has made with his entire game. We all know what kind of a beast defensively he is. This year, NBA fans are seeing his ability to take over games and be extremely effective offensively.

We also know what an incredible two way player Klay Thomson is. His ability to defend isn't as great as jimmys but it is pretty damn good. His ability to score, well that's just about as good as anyone's.

Then there's harden. Who we all know is a scoring machine but continues to have lackluster defense.

And Derozan, who before his injury was helping the Raptors to an amazing start to the season. Love what I've seen from the kid and think he has an incredible future.

With the way they are currently playing, who do you take to start as your starting shooting guard for the next 5 years? To take it even fuehrer, does having a pass first point guard like Rondo or Rubio change your decision, rather than say a rose, lillard or Wall?

[jaydubb]

For me it's Close between jimmy butler and klay Thompson but I think I'll go with klay.

[Goose17]

The rest of the team, especially the point guard, make a big difference to the answer to this question imo.

[jaydubb]

The rest of the team, especially the point guard, make a big difference to the answer to this question imo.

Very true

[Chronz]

Harden, easily. Has already proven the ability to mesh with other high usage players and still produce at a historically efficient level, adjusted to life as the man just fine as well. Taking more pride in his defense these days while remaining efficient is pretty nifty too.

[Kaner]

For one I don't think Derozan is in the discussion if Butler and Thompson keep up there play then it's a 3 way race. Like others have said it depends on your team make up, For instance I think for the Bulls, Rockets, and GS all 3 have the best player for their team.

[thenaj17]

Can i just play Klay at the 2 and Jimmy at the 3?

With added importance of floor spacing and 3's these days, i go with Klay all day long.

Agree that Derozan isn't in the same category and he isn't a very good shooter from deep or a standout defender

[FraziersKnicks]

Harden without a seconds thought. No one else is remotely close to him offensively and he shoulders the offensive load on a great team. Within the right scheme you can hide a players defensive shortcomings as well.

Harden


Butler
Thompson
DeRozan

Although the season is still young Butler is playing at a level Klay and DeMar have never played at and is the superior defender to both these guys. Klay is a better offensive and better defensive player than DeRozan so that ones easy for me as well.

[dalton749]

Can i just play Klay at the 2 and Jimmy at the 3?

With added importance of floor spacing and 3's these days, i go with Klay all day long.

Agree that Derozan isn't in the same category and he isn't a very good shooter from deep or a standout defender

now youre just being crazy
i would love to see klay or jimmy have to be the legit number 1 guy on their teams
they arent ready to see double teams every night, and be consistently defended by the opposing teams best defender

and then you have derozan, who has had a poor start, but proved he could do it all year last year
and jimmy and klay, who have been doing it for a month

[Goose17]

If I have a starting five that can all play great defense and move the ball but none of whom are capable of taking over a game offensively I want Harden (especially if the PG is capable of playing well off the ball). Second choice DeRozan.

If I have a starting 5 with a bunch of decent two way players, and more importantly, a point guard that can act as the primary ball handler most of the time and is a solid playmaker for others, I'm taking Klay. Second choice Butler.

The "other four" matter a lot here. I've always argued that when people are discussing two players and they say "well if you put X on Ys team they wouldn't have done as well", that's a stupid argument. Players are traded for, signed in free agency and drafted with a plan in mind. It's not just a case of grab the best player at every position, you need a team that compliments each other and will work well.

I mean if you need a two way player to play off the ball and spread the floor you're sure as hell not signing DeRozan or Harden. But if you need a number one scoring option to play a sort of combo guard role and be the primary ball handler you're sure as hell not signing Klay or Butler.

[True Rocket]

I'll take the guy who has proven he can lead a team to the playoffs by himself.

[CluTcH_c1tY]

Harden easily

[archdevil84]

i'll take derozan first, butler second, thompson third

[Chronz]

I'll take the guy who has proven he can lead a team to the playoffs by himself.

Hes proven the most of anyone in any situation. Really sucks that people disregard his Finals run because of the ****** performance once he got there. He was monstrous vs LA/SA, especially down the stretch. He should still get credit for that.

[D-Leethal]

If your starting a team from scratch and need someone to build around, its Harden no question. Its probably Harden in 90% of scenarios you can think of, but you need to add some color around the rest of the team before proclaiming anything for certain.

Harden is the guy who can be the focal point and carry your offense as a #1. Butler and Klay are studs but they are both #2/3 guys on a contender.

I'll take them in the same order of the thread title.

[abe_froman]

probably not fair to have harden included in this as he's the clear best sg in the league,while the other 3 are at least on the same tier as each other

[chi-townlove1]

probably not fair to have harden included in this as he's the clear best sg in the league,while the other 3 are at least on the same tier as each other


See I disagree. And I always have. Harden can score, a lot. Yes he's awesome. But to me, harden doesn't make his teammates better, he doesn't play even average defense and his offensive numbers are inflated by his ability to draw a foul. PERSONALLY, that doesn't define a great basketball player to me. Not taking away from his ability to score. But if I'm going to compare these guys, and I believe they all deserve comparison because not one is far better than the next, then I'm taking Klay Thomson to be my shooting guard. He does everything well enough to where he really has no faults in his game and isn't a liability on any end.

[Htownballa1622]

See I disagree. And I always have. Harden can score, a lot. Yes he's awesome. But to me, harden doesn't make his teammates better, he doesn't play even average defense and his offensive numbers are inflated by his ability to draw a foul. PERSONALLY, that doesn't define a great basketball player to me. Not taking away from his ability to score. But if I'm going to compare these guys, and I believe they all deserve comparison because not one is far better than the next, then I'm taking Klay Thomson to be my shooting guard. He does everything well enough to where he really has no faults in his game and isn't a liability on any end.

Now I realize you haven't watched him enough.

[Saddletramp]

See I disagree. And I always have. Harden can score, a lot. Yes he's awesome. But to me, harden doesn't make his teammates better, he doesn't play even average defense and his offensive numbers are inflated by his ability to draw a foul. PERSONALLY, that doesn't define a great basketball player to me. Not taking away from his ability to score. But if I'm going to compare these guys, and I believe they all deserve comparison because not one is far better than the next, then I'm taking Klay Thomson to be my shooting guard. He does everything well enough to where he really has no faults in his game and isn't a liability on any end.

I stopped at the bolded. Not trying to be a homer, but:

probably not fair to have harden included in this as he's the clear best sg in the league,while the other 3 are at least on the same tier as each other

[MonroeFAN]

Definitely not Derozen.

Most likely Harden, followed by Jimmy and then Klay. But it's a tough decision between Harden and Jimmy right now IMO.

[chi-townlove1]

See I disagree. And I always have. Harden can score, a lot. Yes he's awesome. But to me, harden doesn't make his teammates better, he doesn't play even average defense and his offensive numbers are inflated by his ability to draw a foul. PERSONALLY, that doesn't define a great basketball player to me. Not taking away from his ability to score. But if I'm going to compare these guys, and I believe they all deserve comparison because not one is far better than the next, then I'm taking Klay Thomson to be my shooting guard. He does everything well enough to where he really has no faults in his game and isn't a liability on any end.

Now I realize you haven't watched him enough.

What does he do oh so well that makes his teammates better? Pleas elaborate and maybe I'll comprehend it then. While I see the 6.8 assists per game, which is very nice I don't get it.. Because him shooting 18 times a game for a whopping 40% makes everyone around him so much better..

[Raps18-19 Champ]

Harden because he's the best player. The other guys won't even reach Harden's level.

[MonroeFAN]

There's a strong chance that Butler is already on his level, and Klay isn't that far behind. Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Are you speaking strictly from a fantasy stand point?

[MonroeFAN]

Speaking of which... what a terrible photoshop job on this head shot of Harden.

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/headshots/nba/players/full/3992.png&w=350&h=254

Wtf?

[Htownballa1622]

What does he do oh so well that makes his teammates better? Pleas elaborate and maybe I'll comprehend it then. While I see the 6.8 assists per game, which is very nice I don't get it.. Because him shooting 18 times a game for a whopping 40% makes everyone around him so much better..

Besides run the offense and set up his teammates or draw attention from 3 other defenders? Nothing…

Look he shoots 40% on a bunch of shots but he started VERY slow and he's been missing THREE starters for a bunch of games. Who do you want shooting besides him? Ariza? Terry?

You clearly haven't watched the Rockets so just admit that.

[chi-townlove1]

I live Chicago. So I watch the rockets when they're on TNT, so maybe I haven't watched them enough. Listen, your taking this as an attack at harden when in reality it may be ignorance on my part. But I just never have been big on high volume high scoring guys who take up so much of the offense. The rockets look good. Harden looks good. And I respect the fact that he has to shoot a lot to score a lot. But I also don't see the rockets being carried to a championship because of harden. That's it.

[MonroeFAN]

For what it's worth, I agree with the championship part. I think he is a long way from that as a player. But you would have to be foolish to ignore the improvement as a team that the Rockets enjoyed when Harden came to town. He's made a huge impact from day one.

[Greg.]

I had no idea Jimmy Butler was scoring 20+ a game until this morning, honestly. But, Harden is strange with making his teammates better. He has so many plays setting up guys (7 assists a game is pretty good) and he draws a ton of double teams, but he also gets into a ball hogging phase sometimes where he'll dribble for 20 seconds then pass to someone in the corner for a contested 3. Overall, I think he's the only one on the list that makes his teammates better

[Htownballa1622]

I live Chicago. So I watch the rockets when they're on TNT, so maybe I haven't watched them enough. Listen, your taking this as an attack at harden when in reality it may be ignorance on my part. But I just never have been big on high volume high scoring guys who take up so much of the offense. The rockets look good. Harden looks good. And I respect the fact that he has to shoot a lot to score a lot. But I also don't see the rockets being carried to a championship because of harden. That's it.

No I'm not taking as attack.
I just figured you haven't seen enough to realize what he's doing.

I use league pass so I've seen enough from all others to formulate opinion. (Not saying u cant)
Plus jimmy butler played 30 mins away from where I went to h.s. in Houston so I follow his game. I'm also a curry fan so I've seen almost all dubs games too.

Anyway.
I think with a healthy dwight we would NEED harden to play well to have a chance to make a run.

There's a reason why dwight was awesome last playoffs yet we still lost. (James was less than stellar)

[Stunner]

Derozan has been terrible this year , I'll take Jimmy and Klay over him . Harden is still the best SG but I'm taking Jimmy over Klay if he keeps up his current production . The 3 ball is the only thing Klay beats Jimmy in other than that their playmaking skills are even and rebounding and defense goes to Jimmy. Not to mention his elite ability to get to the ft line .

[MonroeFAN]

Playing good defense is just as important to making your team better as assists.

[tredigs]

On the Warriors alongside Curry, I want Klay, then Harden, then Jimmy. The reason for that is because Klay is the best possible floor stretcher due to how much attention he will garner within 35 feet. The only reason Curry is not double teamed even more than he already is, is because of that attention Klay demands. 2 months ago I'd have still gone with Harden due to his massive offensive advantage, but with this new version of Thompson who actually attacks the basket and looks generally better in most facets, I'll roll the dice there. Part B of this being his ability and willingness to guard elite PG's at a high level through switches or otherwise.

In a vacuum, I'll take Harden #1, Jimmy #2 and Klay right behind him (If you think of it as a mock draft with all players available for a 5 year frame -- I'd go something like Harden #8 overall, Jimmy #16 and Klay #18).

I think Jimmy's work ethic is ridiculous (he's always improving... not easy), and there are a few teams (Chi being one of them) where I'd take him. But, Harden's just a more talented player than them both. By and large he'll most likely win you more games over the next 5 seasons.

I'm not a big fan of Derozan. Reminds me of Monta.

[Stunner]

Hope Hardens efficiency gets back up because for somebody who gets to the ft line a lot that 40% FG is ugly . He's basically pulling a Kobe

[MonroeFAN]

I think only Raptor fans are fans of Derozen. Which is fine, I'd gladly have him on my team over whatever crap we have occupying the two spot currently. But he's a shooting guard who can't really shoot. Having him as your first option could prove to be problematic over time (or in the playoffs).

*shrug*

[JustinTime]

Jimmy Butler all day

[JustinTime]

I think only Raptor fans are fans of Derozen. Which is fine, I'd gladly have him on my team over whatever crap we have occupying the two spot currently. But he's a shooting guard who can't really shoot.

*shrug*

I'm a Raptor fan whose not a fan. Derozan is a poor defender who is lives off hitting low percentage shots.

[Stunner]

I think only Raptor fans are fans of Derozen. Which is fine, I'd gladly have him on my team over whatever crap we have occupying the two spot currently. But he's a shooting guard who can't really shoot.

*shrug*

Lucky they have him on a sweet deal but it's gonna suck when they have to pay him again and he's stuck as the same player.

[Stunner]

I wonder what PG stats would have look like this year , currently Butler numbers are better than PG's ( MVP candidate ) numbers .

[JustinTime]

Harden because he's the best player. The other guys won't even reach Harden's level.

I don't know Harden got destroyed by Wiggins and he's been pretty awful so far.

[Htownballa1622]

I will say that I've been impressed with Klay's ability to attack the basket from time to time. He has the size and athleticism to finish. It makes him all the more deadly from outside imo.

[JustinTime]

Jimmy Butler is why there's needs to be a work ethic stat in scouting.

[Stunner]

If Jimmy keeps this up he deserves to get voted in as the All Star starter , but I think Wade will get it off name .

[Htownballa1622]

I don't know Harden got destroyed by Wiggins and he's been pretty awful so far.

Destroyed? Ok. Lol

[MonroeFAN]

How is posting 23 & 10 in a win being "destroyed"?

Wasn't a great shooting performance, but double doubling hardly = being destroyed.

[Tony_Starks]

I'd take Klay pretty easily. Best shooter and 2way player of the bunch. I love Jimmys game but I have to see if he can sustain it, especially when (if) D Rose gets back to normal.

Hardens defense has improved from God awful to not very good most nights and somewhat respectable some nights. Still a liability on that end and they don't fall for his flops in the playoffs, dropping his production.

Not sure why Derozan is in this convo. He's a good young player but nothing to write home about IMO. His game is very flawed.

[JustinTime]

How is posting 23 & 10 in a win being "destroyed"?

Wasn't a great shooting performance, but double doubling hardly = being destroyed.

It is when you get most of those when Wiggins is sitting and shoot as poor as he did when he was guarded by Wiggins. Harden shot 8-23 that game and most those makes came with Wiggins off him.

[Stunner]

I'd take Klay pretty easily. Best shooter and 2way player of the bunch. I love Jimmys game but I have to see if he can sustain it, especially when (if) D Rose gets back to normal.

Hardens defense has improved from God awful to not very good most nights and somewhat respectable some nights. Still a liability on that end and they don't fall for his flops in the playoffs, dropping his production.

Not sure why Derozan is in this convo. He's a good young player but nothing to write home about IMO. His game is very flawed.

Best two way player is false , last year Butler graded out as the better two player . Klay was average almost below . Even if you counted this year Klay isn't a better two way player than Butler . Rebounding and Defense as a whole Jimmy beats Klay in that category . Klay only big plus is his Shooting from beyond the arch when you debate the 3 guards. Jimmy's elite ability to get to the ft line almost cancels out his 3pt shot unless he gets it back up to 37% then it's no question he's better than Klay . But yes If Jimmy keeps this up and we're basing this off of current play ... butler is better than Klay . Plus Rose game won't have an effect of Jimmy because Rose actually welcomes the help. Jimmy will still get his touches.

[MonroeFAN]

He basically went on to say that Butler needs to do it for longer than 10 games, which I agree with.

[Goose17]

LOL Klay was average last year? That's news to me.

[MonroeFAN]

Yeah I don't know about that.

[Stunner]

Here's the stat right here


RT @tomhaberstroh: Quick graphic: Klay Thompson is a *borderline* 2-way shooting guard by RPM. http://t.co/FsjIxQqo10

[Goose17]

Here's the stat right here


RT @tomhaberstroh: Quick graphic: Klay Thompson is a *borderline* 2-way shooting guard by RPM. http://t.co/FsjIxQqo10

One stat? That's what you're basing your entire opinion on?

God I really wish people would learn how to interpret analytics properly.

[MonroeFAN]

Analytics suggest (for the most part) that Klay is worse this year than he was last year.

Not saying I agree, but it's worth noting.

[Stunner]

One stat? That's what you're basing your entire opinion on?

God I really wish people would learn how to interpret analytics properly.

I mean is a factual stat or is it total BS ? The fact that Klay isn't really a good rebounder for his position nor was that big of a passer i don't see how he could get the best " two way guard " I consider Wade a better two way player than Klay , is everyone just coming to this conclusion because he can shoot 3's and play solid defense ? That's what I'm basing this off of all together . If Jimmy gets his 3 back to 38% from his 2012-2013 season and keeps this 48-50% FG with 8.8 FTA up . It's no question he's the unanimous the better two way player . So if having that 3 ball makes him a better two way player at the moment I can't agree with that .

[Stunner]

Analytics suggest (for the most part) that Klay is worse this year than he was last year.

Not saying I agree, but it's worth noting.

Honestly Klay numbers aren't that far off from last year . Yes he's playing 3 fewer mins but the biggest change is that he's getting to the ft line two more times and is shooting the 3 better . But other than that FG is about the same , .6 rebound more and an assist more .

[Goose17]

I mean is a factual stat or is it total BS ? The fact that Klay isn't really a good rebounder for his position nor was that big of a passer i don't see how he could get the best " two way guard " I consider Wade a better two way player than Klay , is everyone just coming to this conclusion because he can shoot 3's and play solid defense ? That's what I'm basing this off of all together . If Jimmy gets his 3 back to 38% from his 2012-2013 season and keeps this 48-50% FG with 8.8 FTA up . It's no question he's the unanimous the better two way player . So if having that 3 ball makes him a better two way player at the moment I can't agree with that .

Klay plays more than "solid" defense. He outplayed the all-nba defender Iguodala for a massive stretch of last season defensively. He's certainly better than Butler defensively or at the very least on par.

And yeah last year he didn't attack the rim much but he was an ELITE shooter not a good shooter. ELITE. Butler wasn't elite in anything last year.

And now it's much closer, despite Butlers great start. Klay is much more aggressive than he was last season and can score in a variety of ways.

Butler is probably better at rebounding though. I'll give you that.

Whether you think Butler is better or not is irrelevant. Calling Klay average makes no sense if you actually watched the kid play.

[tredigs]

Analytics suggest (for the most part) that Klay is worse this year than he was last year.

Not saying I agree, but it's worth noting.
Huh???

His PER, WS/48 and VORP all jumped about 50%. O rating improved. WinsProduced/48 jumped 300% His "Simple Rating" on 82games is at +20, which is 50% higher than the top rated last year... KD and Lebron (His opponents PER is 6.1...). His Rebound% is a career high. His Assist% is by far a career high. His TS% as well as PPG are a career high. Steal% and Block%? Career high. Turnover% is 2nd best of career. That is a massive improvement analytically. I'm watching him every night. He is unquestionably and very impressively improved.

[dalton749]

im taking butlers defense over klays every day of the week

[Stunner]

Klay plays more than "solid" defense. He outplayed the all-nba defender Iguodala for a massive stretch of last season defensively. He's certainly better than Butler defensively or at the very least on par.

And yeah last year he didn't attack the rim much but he was an ELITE shooter not a good shooter. ELITE. Butler wasn't elite in anything last year.

And now it's much closer, despite Butlers great start. Klay is much more aggressive than he was last season and can score in a variety of ways.

Butler is probably better at rebounding though. I'll give you that.

Whether you think Butler is better or not is irrelevant. Calling Klay average makes no sense if you actually watched the kid play.

Lmaoo I stopped reading when you said Klay is a better defender and on par with Butler . And I didn't call Klay Average as a player I said he graded out borderline a two way player . Don't get mad at me lol Klay so great that he didn't get 1st or 2nd team All NBA Defense . Iggy defensive rating was freaking nuts last year don't be disrespectful . Klay is a solid good defender but he's nowhere near as good as Butler , Allen and Leonard .

[Stunner]

Heres a great article on Butler and Klay http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/2281122-klay-thompson-jimmy-butler-gunning-for-top-of-the-nbas-shooting-guard-class


Jimmy seems to get the edge on offense and Klay on defense but they said it's misleading because it's due to who each are playing around . But me personally think Jimmy defense is better . Saturdays game between Rose/ Butler and Curry/Klay at the UC should be great . Fight for the best backcourt

[Goose17]

Lmaoo I stopped reading when you said Klay is a better defender and on par with Butler . And I didn't call Klay Average as a player I said he graded out borderline a two way player . Don't get mad at me lol Klay so great that he didn't get 1st or 2nd team All NBA Defense . Iggy defensive rating was freaking nuts last year don't be disrespectful . Klay is a solid good defender but he's nowhere near as good as Butler , Allen and Leonard .

I'm not being disrespectful, you are. It's clear you never watched him play last season, guess who guarded the best perimeter player on the opponents team? It wasn't Iguodala. Klay outplayed Iguodala defensively for a significant portion of the season last year. Overall Iguodala was better defensively but there was a long stretch where Klay was just beasting.

And if you don't think he's on par with Butler I don't know what to tell you, I dislike discussing these things with blind homers.

And LOL @ Putting Butlers name next to Allen and Leonard.... that cracks me up, he can't even sniff those guys last year, sorry bro.

[valade16]

Klay plays more than "solid" defense. He outplayed the all-nba defender Iguodala for a massive stretch of last season defensively. He's certainly better than Butler defensively or at the very least on par.

That's a bold claim.

[Tony_Starks]

I don't think anyone would dispute Jimmy is the better defender. But Klays defense is more than adequate. The fact that he's a lights out shooter that can go off on any given night gives him the edge for me.

[Stunner]

I'm not being disrespectful, you are. It's clear you never watched him play last season, guess who guarded the best perimeter player on the opponents team? It wasn't Iguodala. Klay outplayed Iguodala defensively for a significant portion of the season last year. Overall Iguodala was better defensively but there was a long stretch where Klay was just beasting.

And if you don't think he's on par with Butler I don't know what to tell you, I dislike discussing these things with blind homers.

And LOL @ Putting Butlers name next to Allen and Leonard.... that cracks me up, he can't even sniff those guys last year, sorry bro.

Why do you put Lol next to Butler being compared defensively with Allen and Leonard ;Are you being that bias? Leonard and Butler are the only two wings defensively to make Lebron work hard go look up the numbers . Allen , Leonard and Butler IMO are better than Klay on that side of the ball . Maybe you should watch some games yourself . I can't see how you can laugh when all three of those players made the all nba team.

[jerellh528]

Easily klay.

Klay

Butler
Harden/derozan

[Stunner]

I don't think anyone would dispute Jimmy is the better defender. But Klays defense is more than adequate. The fact that he's a lights out shooter that can go off on any given night gives him the edge for me.

Like I said that's the only reason people might give him the edge is because of his 3 ball . But Butler ability to get to the ft line at will makes me not even care about his 3 ball .

[Goose17]

Why do you put Lol next to Butler being compared defensively with Allen and Leonard ;Are you being that bias? Leonard and Butler are the only two wings defensively to make Lebron work hard go look up the numbers . Allen , Leonard and Butler IMO are better than Klay on that side of the ball . Maybe you should watch some games yourself . I can't see how you can laugh when all three of those players made the all nba team.

Butler was not on Leonards level defensively last year, it's not even up for debate. And Allen is better than Butler as well.

Maybe you should watch less Chicago games and more Western Conference, we're the better conference anyway ;)

[Stunner]

I still can't understand how Harden is shooting so badly . It's early on in the season but honestly you would choose Jimmy and Klay at the moment over Harden . 40% FG and 33% 3pt is not good at all especially with his FT rate . He's putting up Kobe's numbers on a better team . If that's the case Kobe is in he discussion of best SG .

[ChitownbullsBG7]

Klay plays more than "solid" defense. He outplayed the all-nba defender Iguodala for a massive stretch of last season defensively. He's certainly better than Butler defensively or at the very least on par.

And yeah last year he didn't attack the rim much but he was an ELITE shooter not a good shooter. ELITE. Butler wasn't elite in anything last year.

And now it's much closer, despite Butlers great start. Klay is much more aggressive than he was last season and can score in a variety of ways.

Butler is probably better at rebounding though. I'll give you that.

Whether you think Butler is better or not is irrelevant. Calling Klay average makes no sense if you actually watched the kid play.


I'm not being disrespectful, you are. It's clear you never watched him play last season, guess who guarded the best perimeter player on the opponents team? It wasn't Iguodala. Klay outplayed Iguodala defensively for a significant portion of the season last year. Overall Iguodala was better defensively but there was a long stretch where Klay was just beasting.

And if you don't think he's on par with Butler I don't know what to tell you, I dislike discussing these things with blind homers.

And LOL @ Putting Butlers name next to Allen and Leonard.... that cracks me up, he can't even sniff those guys last year, sorry bro.


These are possibly the worse two post that I have ever read on this forum. To even insinuate that Klay is on par with jimmy Butler's defense, just make you seem like a clueless poster. That or either just as big of a homer as anyone who would take any SG over Harden.

http://fansided.com/2014/10/28/nba-best-perimeter-defenders/

Do me a favor and read this. Then I'd like you to rethink those statements.

[JustinTime]

Butler is better than Klay and Harden stop this BS.

[Stunner]

Butler was not on Leonards level defensively last year, it's not even up for debate. And Allen is better than Butler as well.

Maybe you should watch less Chicago games and more Western Conference, we're the better conference anyway ;)

Alright I'm wrong , Jimmy is a worse defender than Allen / Leonard / Klay and Lance . Everything I said was a lie

[b1e9a8r5s]

I hate Harden's game so much. He just draws fouls. He gives zero ****s on defense. He probably still is the best player but I'd take Klay and Butler (if he can keep this up all year) over him.

[Goose17]

These are possibly the worse two post that I have ever read on this forum. To even insinuate that Klay is on par with jimmy Butler's defense, just make you seem like a clueless poster. That or either just as big of a homer as anyone who would take any SG over Harden.

http://fansided.com/2014/10/28/nba-best-perimeter-defenders/

Do me a favor and read this. Then I'd like you to rethink those statements.

You're a bulls fan, big surprise you think Butler is the greatest defender the league has ever seen or whatever.

Last year, he wasn't better than Leonard or Allen, not even close. And I'm not discussing it further, disagree with it if you want, I don't care, we're allowed to disagree you know.

And Harden is playing like garbage, who wouldn't you take over him right this minute? You're the only one looking clueless bro, have you seen Harden play this season? His shot has vanished, only way he's scoring right now is by flopping to get to the foul line. Aside from more effort defensively he's playing awful (by his standards).

[Goose17]

Alright I'm wrong , Jimmy is a worse defender than Allen / Leonard / Klay and Lance . Everything I said was a lie

Lance doesn't deserve to be mentioned with those names he's shite.

And I was talking about last year, this year I'm not so sure it's that clear cut.

[InRoseWeTrust]

Butler was not on Leonards level defensively last year, it's not even up for debate. And Allen is better than Butler as well.

Maybe you should watch less Chicago games and more Western Conference, we're the better conference anyway ;)

Nothing screams "let's have an honest discussion about it" and/or "I have no evidence for what I'm saying" than the bolded.

[Stunner]

You're a bulls fan, big surprise you think Butler is the greatest defender the league has ever seen or whatever.

Last year, he wasn't better than Leonard or Allen, not even close. And I'm not discussing it further, disagree with it if you want, I don't care, we're allowed to disagree you know.

And Harden is playing like garbage, who wouldn't you take over him right this minute? You're the only one looking clueless bro, have you seen Harden play this season? His shot has vanished, only way he's scoring right now is by flopping to get to the foul line. Aside from more effort defensively he's playing awful (by his standards).

Is this more an opinion or do you have actual numbers ?

[InRoseWeTrust]

Is this more an opinion or do you have actual numbers ?

It doesn't matter what defensive stat or metric you put in front of rim regarding Jimmy vs. Kawhi vs. Allen. He's not ever going to change his mind. Just give up.

[Stunner]

It doesn't matter what defensive stat or metric you put in front of rim regarding Jimmy vs. Kawhi vs. Allen. He's not ever going to change his mind. Just give up.

I just hope Jimmy gets that allstar roster spot , wins most improve and gets on another all NBA team.

[Kyben36]

I've stayed quiet on the progress that butler has made with his entire game. We all know what kind of a beast defensively he is. This year, NBA fans are seeing his ability to take over games and be extremely effective offensively.

We also know what an incredible two way player Klay Thomson is. His ability to defend isn't as great as jimmys but it is pretty damn good. His ability to score, well that's just about as good as anyone's.

Then there's harden. Who we all know is a scoring machine but continues to have lackluster defense.

And Derozan, who before his injury was helping the Raptors to an amazing start to the season. Love what I've seen from the kid and think he has an incredible future.

With the way they are currently playing, who do you take to start as your starting shooting guard for the next 5 years? To take it even fuehrer, does having a pass first point guard like Rondo or Rubio change your decision, rather than say a rose, lillard or Wall?

Harden is the best player, but i just dont think you can win with him, and his terrible defense. his defense is laughable.

that said, i think Jimmy Klay and Derozan can all be starters on championship teams, but yes, player next to you does matter.

[archdevil84]

i'd take wade over any of these all day long. Butler is certainly on par with leonard and allen defensively.

wade>butler>Thompson>derozan

[Goose17]

Is this more an opinion or do you have actual numbers ?

I don't believe there is any stat that successfully measures individual defense, the majority are influenced heavily by the rest of the team. You would have to look at all of them, plus the on/off numbers and use your own judgement. Stats can't measure individual defense the way they do individual offense, yet. Imo. Dean Oliver has done the best job yet because he included stops in general and altering shots not just steals etc

In saying that, if you want some examples I will provide them.

Leonard was 7th in the entire league last season for defensive rating with 98.2 and was the only wing player aside from Paul George and Draymond Green to crack the top 10 (Butler was 13th).

In defensive Box Plus/Minus Leonard was 7th again. Butler was 12th.

On/Off in general;

San Antonio allowed an eFG% 1.8% higher when Leonard was off the court.
Chicago Bulls allowed an eFG% 0.6% higher when Butler was off the court.

Butler beats Leonard in DWS.


Really it just comes down to watching them play and looking at ALL the available data. Can't have one without the other and expect to get a good idea of how good a guy is defensively. I don't really trust defensive stats for individuals, not fully. That's just me though.

So yes, it's opinion. Based on the numbers available and what I've seen from all the players mentioned.

[ChitownbullsBG7]

Klay plays more than "solid" defense. He outplayed the all-nba defender Iguodala for a massive stretch of last season defensively. He's certainly better than Butler defensively or at the very least on par.

And yeah last year he didn't attack the rim much but he was an ELITE shooter not a good shooter. ELITE. Butler wasn't elite in anything last year.

And now it's much closer, despite Butlers great start. Klay is much more aggressive than he was last season and can score in a variety of ways.

Butler is probably better at rebounding though. I'll give you that.

Whether you think Butler is better or not is irrelevant. Calling Klay average makes no sense if you actually watched the kid play.


You're a bulls fan, big surprise you think Butler is the greatest defender the league has ever seen or whatever.

Last year, he wasn't better than Leonard or Allen, not even close. And I'm not discussing it further, disagree with it if you want, I don't care, we're allowed to disagree you know.

And Harden is playing like garbage, who wouldn't you take over him right this minute? You're the only one looking clueless bro, have you seen Harden play this season? His shot has vanished, only way he's scoring right now is by flopping to get to the foul line. Aside from more effort defensively he's playing awful (by his standards).

When did I say Butler was the best defender in the league? Please show me where I said that. I can't fault you though. Usually when people know they are wrong, they tend to "put words in other peoples mouth". My top wing defenders are Bradley, Allen, Leonard, LeBron, Butler, and MKG. Klay isn't even close. As defenders I'd take Ariza, Wes Matthews, Batum, Shump, Lance, and Deng all before Klay.

The debate is the fact that your throwing out the notion that Klay is a top defender in this league. Is he a good defender? Most definitely. Is he on Butler's level defensively? Not at all. You claiming Klay is as good as Butler defensively would be like me saying Butler is just as good of a shooter as Klay. We both know it isn't true. Is Butler a good shooter? Yes and he knows his limits. Is he on the level of Klay? Not even close.

[ChitownbullsBG7]

I don't believe there is any stat that successfully measures individual defense, the majority are influenced heavily by the rest of the team. You would have to look at all of them, plus the on/off numbers and use your own judgement. Stats can't measure individual defense the way they do individual offense, yet. Imo. Dean Oliver has done the best job yet because he included stops in general and altering shots not just steals etc

In saying that, if you want some examples I will provide them.

Leonard was 7th in the entire league last season for defensive rating with 98.2 and was the only wing player aside from Paul George and Draymond Green to crack the top 10 (Butler was 13th).

In defensive Box Plus/Minus Leonard was 7th again. Butler was 12th.

On/Off in general;

San Antonio allowed an eFG% 1.8% higher when Leonard was off the court.
Chicago Bulls allowed an eFG% 0.6% higher when Butler was off the court.

Butler beats Leonard in DWS.


Really it just comes down to watching them play and looking at ALL the available data. Can't have one without the other and expect to get a good idea of how good a guy is defensively. I don't really trust defensive stats for individuals, not fully. That's just me though.

So yes, it's opinion. Based on the numbers available and what I've seen from all the players mentioned.

No one has said Butler is a better defender than Leonard. NOBODY. The only thing people are telling you is that Butler is a top notch wing defender. Definitely top 7. Klay is a good defender but he isn't as good as Butler.

[tredigs]

This Klay/Butler talk is fun and I don't like Harden, but he is easily better than these guys in a vacuum. You can call it a slow start, but he's averaging 25/6/7 on high efficiency (you might not like how he gets it, but yes, fairly high efficiency... it's the same as Klay's who is posting a career high) with supposedly improved D. And he is top 10 overall in every cumulative advanced stat you can find (WS/48, PER, VORP, Box+/-, WP, etc). Contextually you can find spots where Butler or Klay can be better (probably not coincidentally on each of their teams), but Harden is a better player than both.
Only guys in the league I'd personally argue over Harden are Lebron, KD, AD, Curry, M Gasol and CP3. He's 100% in the argument somewhere as a top 4-12 player. Butler and Klay are not.

[BoSox47]

Harden without a seconds thought. No one else is remotely close to him offensively and he shoulders the offensive load on a great team. Within the right scheme you can hide a players defensive shortcomings as well.

Harden


Butler
Thompson
DeRozan

Although the season is still young Butler is playing at a level Klay and DeMar have never played at and is the superior defender to both these guys. Klay is a better offensive and better defensive player than DeRozan so that ones easy for me as well.


For how good he is offensively he is almost that bad defensively as well. I take Butler and Klay over harden because of efensive play.

[Goose17]

No one has said Butler is a better defender than Leonard. NOBODY.

But I said Butler was worse and was asked why, so I replied. Did you read the post I was replying to? That would have saved you some time. I was just replying to a question. Not accusing anyone of anything.

[Stunner]

40% and 33% is high efficiency ? Take away that high ft rate and it looks horrible to me . So is Kobe averaging on high efficiency as well seeing him and harden are top 3 in FTA , one % lower in FG and 5% on the 3 ball .

[Stunner]

But I said Butler was worse and was asked why, so I replied. Did you read the post I was replying to? That would have saved you some time. I was just replying to a question. Not accusing anyone of anything.

I think much of Leonard success is having a better team defensively than the bulls did last year .

[JustinTime]

I hate Harden's game so much. He just draws fouls. He gives zero ****s on defense. He probably still is the best player but I'd take Klay and Butler (if he can keep this up all year) over him.

Harden is as good as the refs make him. One day when the refs or the NBA evolves to stop calling his flops his game will drop off.

[mau2392]

I guess it depends on who my SG is playing with. If James Harden was playing in a team where they have a strong defensive culture then maybe James Harden wouldn't be so criticized. Also, I don't think James Harden should be the leader of a team. I mean he is a major scoring threat and probably the best scorer in the league, but he doesn't seem to have much leadership.
Butler and DeRozan are special players too because they are both classic SGs. They don't move the ball around much, but they know how to score. I think DeRozan is a better scorer than Butler, but so far Butler has proved to be the best out of the two.
Finally, Thompson is a fantastic two-way player who can shoot the long ball, and be solid at defense. I think he is top 5 SG, but I don't think he would be much if Steph Curry wasn't on his team. I don't think Klay has the ability to carry a team.
That being said I would pick Butler. He is not the best scorer, but with Rose's absence he has proven to be the best leader.

[bigmac8675]

Klay
Butler
Harden
Derozan

In that order

[JustinTime]

Harden is the best player, but i just dont think you can win with him, and his terrible defense. his defense is laughable.

that said, i think Jimmy Klay and Derozan can all be starters on championship teams, but yes, player next to you does matter.

I don't think Derozan could be he's a very poor defender who has made a career of turn around fade-aways. When Derozan has a game where his low % shots aren't falling he looks absolutely awful.

[tredigs]

40% and 33% is high efficiency ? Take away that high ft rate and it looks horrible to me . So is Kobe averaging on high efficiency as well seeing him and harden are top 3 in FTA , one % lower in FG and 5% on the 3 ball .
Lol. Kobe's taking 23+ shots a night with that 39% FG. And Harden has been far better from the line. Also how is 34% from three comparable to 28%?

A 58% TS% is high efficiency. It's significantly higher than the best scoring efficiency Derrick Rose has ever posted, for example. PPP, he's one of the elite high volume scorers in the NBA (THIS year). His advanced stats despite the low FG% are the best of his career. He is, quite easily, better than Klay and Butler (even though both are hugely improved and becoming AS caliber players themselves).

[Goose17]

I think much of Leonard success is having a better team defensively than the bulls did last year .

Fair enough. Like I said, we don't have to agree lol. We are allowed to have different opinions on the matter.

[BHF]

I don't think Derozan could be he's a very poor defender who has made a career of turn around fade-aways. When Derozan has a game where his low % shots aren't falling he looks absolutely awful.

You absolutely have no idea what you are talking about, yeah you might be a raptors fan but probably since 2014 DD didn't take these fade away jumpers last year it started in the playoffs and this season. Derozan made his career on driving to the hoop and getting fouled. But than again you are the same guy that suggested Olynyk for Val trade and the same guy who thinks that Wiggins is a bust.

[Stunner]

Derozan sucks this year

[Stunner]

Crazy last year the warriors could have had Curry / Klay / Butler / Lee/ Bogut


Glad the bulls didn't make that trade

[dalton749]

Harden, butler, and klay all have the luxury of playing alongside another player who can consistently draw double teams.

Derozan in either of those situations would look like a much better player because a lot of his shots come at the end of the shot clock when the offence has failed to create a good look.

He's the best scorer of the bunch in a sense that he has more moves in his arsenal, and ability to score over defences.

Also my choice for who I'd want in my locker room as a leader

[ThuglifeJ]

@PSD Rockets fans: It is safe to say that you guys assume no one else has watched enough Harden this season to judge and evaluate him properly, aside from Rockets fans, so I must question how much exactly have YOU been watching of the other three guards this season? The only player who's been on national TV as much as Harden this season has been Klay. Unless you consistently watch GS, Chicago, and Toronto games, I don't think it is fair to assume no one else watches Rocket games any less than you watch Golden State, Chicago, or Toronto games.


-peaceful TLG curiosity

[chi-townlove1]

Harden, butler, and klay all have the luxury of playing alongside another player who can consistently draw double teams.

Derozan in either of those situations would look like a much better player because a lot of his shots come at the end of the shot clock when the offence has failed to create a good look.

He's the best scorer of the bunch in a sense that he has more moves in his arsenal, and ability to score over defences.

Also my choice for who I'd want in my locker room as a leader


You want Demar over jimmy in the locker room?? Wow

[Htownballa1622]

@PSD Rockets fans: It is safe to say that you guys assume no one else has watched enough Harden this season to judge and evaluate him properly, aside from Rockets fans, so I must question how much exactly have YOU been watching of the other three guards this season? The only player who's been on national TV as much as Harden this season has been Klay. Unless you consistently watch GS, Chicago, and Toronto games, I don't think it is fair to assume no one else watches Rocket games any less than you watch Golden State, Chicago, or Toronto games.


-peaceful TLG curiosity

Since you don't want to quote me I'll just respond by saying I've addressed this already.

[Stunner]

Harden, butler, and klay all have the luxury of playing alongside another player who can consistently draw double teams.

Derozan in either of those situations would look like a much better player because a lot of his shots come at the end of the shot clock when the offence has failed to create a good look.

He's the best scorer of the bunch in a sense that he has more moves in his arsenal, and ability to score over defences.

Also my choice for who I'd want in my locker room as a leader

You just need to stop it

[JustinTime]

You want Demar over jimmy in the locker room?? Wow

so gay

[Kaner]

Harden, butler, and klay all have the luxury of playing alongside another player who can consistently draw double teams.
Lol this seems like your making up a reason for why Derozan lags so far behind them statistically and decided to go with their teammates draw double teams

Butler has been equally great with or without Rose in the lineup this season most of his scoring seems to come with Rose on the bench anyway when he's more likely to get a play called for him, Harden was great the year before Howard went to Houston and basically identical statistically, I don't watch enough GS to say definitively but am guessing that was again conjecture on your part.


Derozan in either of those situations would look like a much better player because a lot of his shots come at the end of the shot clock when the offence has failed to create a good look.

You know 82games tracks what time in the shotclock a player shoots right? For Derozan 16% of his shots come with under 3 seconds to go compared to 19% for Butler.


He's the best scorer of the bunch in a sense that he has more moves in his arsenal, and ability to score over defences.

He's the worst shooter of the bunch, especially this year, and most of his shots have been low percentage jumpers.



Also my choice for who I'd want in my locker room as a leader

Jimmy in my opinion has the best attitude towards basketball and his team in the NBA right now. Their is literally only 1 thing on his mind in every interview, winning. We can agree to disagree here though.

[Stunner]

Butler still refers to himself as role player

[JustinTime]

Harden, butler, and klay all have the luxury of playing alongside another player who can consistently draw double teams.

Derozan in either of those situations would look like a much better player because a lot of his shots come at the end of the shot clock when the offence has failed to create a good look.

He's the best scorer of the bunch in a sense that he has more moves in his arsenal, and ability to score over defences.

Also my choice for who I'd want in my locker room as a leader

Who is this player drawing the double team in Chicago when Rose goes down, old-man Gasol?

[chi-townlove1]

Harden, butler, and klay all have the luxury of playing alongside another player who can consistently draw double teams.

Derozan in either of those situations would look like a much better player because a lot of his shots come at the end of the shot clock when the offence has failed to create a good look.

He's the best scorer of the bunch in a sense that he has more moves in his arsenal, and ability to score over defences.

Also my choice for who I'd want in my locker room as a leader

Who is this player drawing the double team in Chicago when Rose goes down, old-man Gasol?


Old man gasol? Watch your mouth. He's still one of the craftiest big men in the NBA. And takes basically anyone 1v1 in the paint.

[JustinTime]

Old man gasol? Watch your mouth. He's still one of the craftiest big men in the NBA. And takes basically anyone 1v1 in the paint.

Never said he wasn't, but is he still getting doubled that much at this stage?

[AIRMAR72]

See I disagree. And I always have. Harden can score, a lot. Yes he's awesome. But to me, harden doesn't make his teammates better, he doesn't play even average defense and his offensive numbers are inflated by his ability to draw a foul. PERSONALLY, that doesn't define a great basketball player to me. Not taking away from his ability to score. But if I'm going to compare these guys, and I believe they all deserve comparison because not one is far better than the next, then I'm taking Klay Thomson to be my shooting guard. He does everything well enough to where he really has no faults in his game and isn't a liability on any end. you typing MADNESS James Harden is the best SG right NOW in NBA and the best player on his Houston Rockets team

[dalton749]

Y'all need to chill lol. I'm not saying that to try n prove demar is the best out of the group, I just think that his biggest criticism(inefficient), wouldn't be that bad if he had another guy out there who could get 20 a night, and consistently beat their man 1 on 1.
Because Toronto doesn't have that, there is less opportunity to create higher percentage shots, creating a greater need to force things as the clock runs down.

They don't even have a post presence because valanciunas isn't there yet, and They don't even run offensive sets most of the time so most scoring is done out of isolation.

Playing beside a guy like curry in an uptempo offensive system would do wonders for his game

[Stunner]

Demar is Rudy Gay without a 3 ball

[ThuglifeJ]

Since you don't want to quote me I'll just respond by saying I've addressed this already.

Being this thread? You've said you have NBA leaguepass. That doesn't mean no one else has NBA leaguepass. I have Leaguepass. I've seen 6 full Rockets games. 5 full Golden State games, 1 full Chicago game this season..every Raptors game being a fan.

I can't imagine you've watched more full games of GS, Chicago, or Toronto to make that statement justified. I'm guessing even less than 5.

I'm not saying you're wrong that some people haven't seen enough Rockets games to judge their players fairly, but I'm saying I don't like that comment. I think it's unreasonable and unable to prove how many Rockets games others have watched.

[True Rocket]

Lol this forum cracks me up. I know yall hate James Harden but damn. There is a reason why he finished 5th in mvp last season and was all NBA team one. I can't argue with anyone who has Butler or DeRozan ahead of Harden. Do you seriously think ether one could carry a team night in and night out like Harden does? What happens when defenses just key down on these guys? I can understand an argument for Klay because he is such a good two way player but other then that I just don't get it.

[JEDean89]

Harden
Klay
Butler
DeRozan

in that order is my opinion.

[Htownballa1622]

Being this thread? You've said you have NBA leaguepass. That doesn't mean no one else has NBA leaguepass. I have Leaguepass. I've seen 6 full Rockets games. 5 full Golden State games, 1 full Chicago game this season..every Raptors game being a fan.

I can't imagine you've watched more full games of GS, Chicago, or Toronto to make that statement justified. I'm guessing even less than 5.

I'm not saying you're wrong that some people haven't seen enough Rockets games to judge their players fairly, but I'm saying I don't like that comment. I think it's unreasonable and unable to prove how many Rockets games others have watched.
I've watched all rox games and most dubs games. I've seen at least 5+ bulls games.

But I agree that I shouldn't judge who has seen or hasn't seen but the reason I was under the impression that he hadn't seen rox games is because he said harden doesn't make his teammates better.

Now u and I can agree and disagree over certain things like Harden's defense or flopping but I'm sure anyone that has seen the rox have seen that Harden is the lone playmaker especially while everyone is injured.

That's what gave it away that he didn't watch enough games. I'm not telling that to someone unless I'm sure of it. I didn't mean disrespect to him though. Just meaning that I'm sure he hadn't seen enough based off of his assumption.

[ThuglifeJ]

Being this thread? You've said you have NBA leaguepass. That doesn't mean no one else has NBA leaguepass. I have Leaguepass. I've seen 6 full Rockets games. 5 full Golden State games, 1 full Chicago game this season..every Raptors game being a fan.

I can't imagine you've watched more full games of GS, Chicago, or Toronto to make that statement justified. I'm guessing even less than 5.

I'm not saying you're wrong that some people haven't seen enough Rockets games to judge their players fairly, but I'm saying I don't like that comment. I think it's unreasonable and unable to prove how many Rockets games others have watched.
I've watched all rox games and most dubs games. I've seen at least 5+ bulls games.

But I agree that I shouldn't judge who has seen or hasn't seen but the reason I was under the impression that he hadn't seen rox games is because he said harden doesn't make his teammates better.

Now u and I can agree and disagree over certain things like Harden's defense or flopping but I'm sure anyone that has seen the rox have seen that Harden is the lone playmaker especially while everyone is injured.

That's what gave it away that he didn't watch enough games. I'm not telling that to someone unless I'm sure of it. I didn't mean disrespect to him though. Just meaning that I'm sure he hadn't seen enough based off of his assumption.

I understand that but I've seen this said multiple times on various rockets topics.

He said he doesn't make his teammates better not he doesnt playmake.

I don't think anyone will argue that, he's the playmaker for them.

Does he make his teammates BETTER? Well I only can say a select few players in the history of the sport actually make their teammates noticeably better.. Kidd (Kmart, Jefferson). Nash (Amare, Marion, every scrub). Stockton. Lebron (3 pt shooting scrubs, not established players). Magic. Bird.

Now does he make his teammates better as in make plays, create openings for them? Yes. I don't think his summer comments showed good leadership or make his teammates better but on court I can't say I've analyzed that enough.

[Htownballa1622]

I understand that but I've seen this said multiple times on various rockets topics.

He said he doesn't make his teammates better not he doesnt playmake.

I don't think anyone will argue that, he's the playmaker for them.

Does he make his teammates BETTER? Well I only can say a select few players in the history of the sport actually make their teammates noticeably better.. Kidd (Kmart, Jefferson). Nash (Amare, Marion, every scrub). Stockton. Lebron (3 pt shooting scrubs, not established players). Magic. Bird.

Now does he make his teammates better as in make plays, create openings for them? Yes. I don't think his summer comments showed good leadership or make his teammates better but on court I can't say I've analyzed that enough.

Well the other topics were in regards to his defense in the totality of this year. Yall only pick and choose the lowlights of his defense while we (that watch every game) said he's put more effort in the defensive side.

And yeah that's what I mean. He's the lone playmaker making his teammates better. Not like those pgs you mentioned but him commanding double teams even makes his teammates better.

[ewing]

I've stayed quiet on the progress that butler has made with his entire game. We all know what kind of a beast defensively he is. This year, NBA fans are seeing his ability to take over games and be extremely effective offensively.

We also know what an incredible two way player Klay Thomson is. His ability to defend isn't as great as jimmys but it is pretty damn good. His ability to score, well that's just about as good as anyone's.

Then there's harden. Who we all know is a scoring machine but continues to have lackluster defense.

And Derozan, who before his injury was helping the Raptors to an amazing start to the season. Love what I've seen from the kid and think he has an incredible future.

With the way they are currently playing, who do you take to start as your starting shooting guard for the next 5 years? To take it even fuehrer, does having a pass first point guard like Rondo or Rubio change your decision, rather than say a rose, lillard or Wall?

one of these 3 doesn't belong

[rhino17]

1) Harden (not even close)


2) Klay (clearly a step above the other 2 imo)






3) Jimmy B
4) Derozan

[BALLER R]

1) Harden (not even close)


2) Klay (clearly a step above the other 2 imo)






3) Jimmy B
4) Derozan

Honestly think Butler is even more ahead of Demar. But can get you everything Demar does on offense and he plays defense.

[CluTcH_c1tY]

Let's see Butler or Klay carry their teams with 3 starters out and another key player off the bench out. Harden is easily better out of the group. Quit being Homers.

[True Sports Fan]

If I'm the Kings, I'm taking Klay Thompson

Collison - Klay - Gay - JT - Cousins. Could maybe go small ball as well and move Gay to PF and play one of Klay/McLemore at SF.

[TrueFan420]

Well the other topics were in regards to his defense in the totality of this year. Yall only pick and choose the lowlights of his defense while we (that watch every game) said he's put more effort in the defensive side.

You got to understand this tho... It's gonna take a full year plus for the masses to not only see that he has improved on that end from a night to night bases but in consistently bringing it defensively.

As a warriors fan we had to go thru that with curry. People use to say he was worthless on that end. It took a year plus of him playing solid defense to get notice by the masses that he was no longer a liability on that end.

Whether Harden has improved or not... No comment haven't watched enough of him play this year.

[Chronz]

You got to understand this tho... It's gonna take a full year plus for the masses to not only see that he has improved on that end from a night to night bases but in consistently bringing it defensively.

As a warriors fan we had to go thru that with curry. People use to say he was worthless on that end. It took a year plus of him playing solid defense to get notice by the masses that he was no longer a liability on that end.

Whether Harden has improved or not... No comment haven't watched enough of him play this year.
I'm not convinced he's not a liability on that end. At best he's average. imo.

[Htownballa1622]

You got to understand this tho... It's gonna take a full year plus for the masses to not only see that he has improved on that end from a night to night bases but in consistently bringing it defensively.

As a warriors fan we had to go thru that with curry. People use to say he was worthless on that end. It took a year plus of him playing solid defense to get notice by the masses that he was no longer a liability on that end.

Whether Harden has improved or not... No comment haven't watched enough of him play this year.

Oh I fully agree. I'm not calling him some all defensive guy. I'm just saying that acting like he's the same as last year based off of watching one or two plays isn't the same as watching his every play. I think he's still below average to average but my stance has been that he's put more effort on that side.

[THE MTL]

As much as people hate Harden he is actually the only true franchise player of the 4 ppl listed.

But since I'm playing favorites lol.....I'd go with Klay Thompson

[TrueFan420]

I'm not convinced he's not a liability on that end. At best he's average. imo.

I think he's shown that he is no longer a liability. I won't get into advanced stats as having great individual, team defenders, and a rim protector as teammates can effect that. However, he's shown he can defend well. I'm not saying he's lock down just average. He keeps his man in front of him better (tho super quick still give him problems), learned to use his length to his advantage, puts forth more effort on that end than when he first came to the league, has quick hands and while steals aren't an indication of great defense he comes up with 2 a game.

[Sanjay]

It depends which other players you have. As The MTL and Clutch City pointed out Harden is the only one out of these four you could definitely build the rest of your team around. However, if you were the Warriors you would definitely choose Thompson because you already have your best player in Curry. If you had a pass-first point guard I wouldn't take Butler as you would want someone who is a shot creator for themselves.

[lol, please]

Can i just play Klay at the 2 and Jimmy at the 3?

With added importance of floor spacing and 3's these days, i go with Klay all day long.

Agree that Derozan isn't in the same category and he isn't a very good shooter from deep or a standout defender

Well said. Great post.

[lol, please]

Easily klay.

Klay

Butler
Harden/derozan

My list would be similar.

[Shlumpledink]

Give me Klay Thompson. He is phenomenal offensively and a really good defensive player. He is the only guy that I know would still contribute well while taking a back seat to another player or two. A guy that shoots that well could still be effective without the ball in his hands so you don't shy away from adding a ball dominant player.

Butler is my next favorite option here. His game has already improved and could still improve.

Harden is my least favorite option, but he probably needs the least help around him. I still don't like his defense but I think that it could still improve if he really wanted to.

[Crackadalic]

Seriously?

I don't even like Hardens playing style. At all. I actually despise it but he is the best 2 guard in the game. Let's not kid ourselves

His offensive game is so good it offsets how bad he is on defense and even that he upgraded from being down right horrible to sub par which is a plus in my book

[Goose17]

Seriously?

I don't even like Hardens playing style. At all. I actually despise it but he is the best 2 guard in the game. Let's not kid ourselves

His offensive game is so good it offsets how bad he is on defense and even that he upgraded from being down right horrible to sub par which is a plus in my book

This season I would argue he's played the worst out of all 4 offensively.

It won't last though, he'll get back on form. He's just been terrible so far.

[ichitownclowni]

Harden easy

[Shammyguy3]

This season I would argue he's played the worst out of all 4 offensively.

It won't last though, he'll get back on form. He's just been terrible so far.

This is just wrong

[gwrighter]

I'l take the two guys that are #1 options on their team and all-stars in Harden and Derozan. Then I'l take the complimentary players Jimmy Butler & Klay Thompson.

[Monta is beast]

http://www.82games.com/1415/1415HOU.HTM

http://www.82games.com/1415/1415GSW.HTM

http://www.82games.com/1415/1415CHI.HTM

Stats say Thompsn is the best player by far. this season atleast

[rockets-fan]

http://www.82games.com/1415/1415HOU.HTM

http://www.82games.com/1415/1415GSW.HTM

http://www.82games.com/1415/1415CHI.HTM

Stats say Thompsn is the best player by far. this season atleast

You don't think Thompson benefits greatly from not being the number 1 option? He has been playing great do not get me wrong, but this is Currys team and the opposing defense will focus on him first. Thonpson benefits from that.

Harden hasn't had Howard to make it easier on him. I mean seriously, 3 starters are out. That gives hardwn a tough time, just common sense.

I'm not saying Thompson couldn't be a number 1 option and still be great, he has the skills, but I personally don't think a team built around him, him being the best player, would succeed much.

Obviously just my opinion.

Harden
Klay


Butler

[tredigs]

This season I would argue he's played the worst out of all 4 offensively.

It won't last though, he'll get back on form. He's just been terrible so far.

Go ahead and try to actually make that argument. That should be fun to watch.

[mightybosstone]

I'm glad to see Harden get some much deserved love in this thread. He's playing some fantastic all around basketball right now. And this is easily the best defense i've ever seen him play.

[cmellofan15]

The other three don't even compare to Harden..why is he grouped with them?

[BoSox47]

You don't think Thompson benefits greatly from not being the number 1 option? He has been playing great do not get me wrong, but this is Currys team and the opposing defense will focus on him first. Thonpson benefits from that.

Harden hasn't had Howard to make it easier on him. I mean seriously, 3 starters are out. That gives hardwn a tough time, just common sense.

I'm not saying Thompson couldn't be a number 1 option and still be great, he has the skills, but I personally don't think a team built around him, him being the best player, would succeed much.

Obviously just my opinion.

Harden
Klay


Butler

once harden starts playing defense i will move him above klay and butler. As of right now this season tho its butler and klay over harden

[rockets-fan]

once harden starts playing defense i will move him above klay and butler. As of right now this season tho its butler and klay over harden

That is fine, but it is wrong.

Klay and Butler would not be able to successfully carry their teams. Especially not with 3 starters out.

[Kaner]

http://www.82games.com/1415/1415HOU.HTM

http://www.82games.com/1415/1415GSW.HTM

http://www.82games.com/1415/1415CHI.HTM

This Stat says Thompson is the best player by far. this season atleast

Fixed.

WS/48 it's Harden then Jimmy then Thompson; PER it's Harden then Jimmy then Thompson; VORP it's Harden then Jimmy then Thompson; BPM it's Harden then Jimmy then Thompson... most advanced and regular statistics put them in that order.

[Goose17]

Go ahead and try to actually make that argument. That should be fun to watch.

Inefficient garbage. He has definitely not been better than Klay or Jimmer anyway. His jump shot pretty much disappeared. Have you been watching him play? Aside from flopping to get free throws he's been struggling to score in pretty much every way, he's having to chuck up a lot and isn't getting as much in return as he normally would.

He's shooting .41% from the field, the lowest since his rookie year. 34% from deep, a career low. He's making 6 assists but averaging 4 turnovers per game.

He's getting a lot of point but he's been horrendously inefficient.

For comparison sake (hardens stats in brackets);

Klay Thompson; FG% 44 (41), 3P% 45 (34), TO 2.1 (4.1), FG% on Drives 46.8% (45.3%), eFG% on Jump Shots 50% (41%).

Jimmy Butler; FG% 49 (41), 3P% 28 34), TO 1.6 (4.1), FG% on Drives 39.4% (45.3%), eFG% on Jump Shots 46% (41%).


Even turnovers, Klay has 11 ball handling turnovers, Jimmy has 6, Harden has 24.

Jimmy's net points per 100 is +8.2, Hardens is +10.9 and Klay's is +42.6. That's coming from Hardens superior offense and improved defense yeah?

When Harden is on the court Houstons eFG% is 0.4% WORSE. When Klay is on the court, the Warriors eFG% is 8% better.

Sorry, but Harden is the better offensive player when he's on form, he's just been struggling early on.

[mrblisterdundee]

I take James Harden first, and it isn't close. Everyone else mentioned is a secondary offensive weapon.
Harden produces significantly more offense through scoring and distributing, and he's actually trying more on defense this year. You can base an offense around Harden, and add a bunch of defensive guys to make up for his deficiencies.
Klay Thompson comes second, as he's provided the biggest sample size of being an elite wing defender who can also shoot 45 percent from three-point land. Jimmy Butler's playing slightly better than Thompson right now, but his damage comes from the inside instead of the perimeter.
The real deciding factor between Butler and Thompson is how good teammates are at shooting threes. If you need shooting, take Thompson. If you need a bull to get to the free throw line, take Butler.

[FriedTofuz]

Jimmy butler is the best SG in the east. Id take him over Demar because he plays Defense and can hit the 3pt much better.

[koreancabbage]

I'd take Harden, Klay, and Butler over Derozan's shot happy sub 40% shooting any day.

Harden can score better the Derozan
Klay is a much better shooter and defender than Derozan
Butler is a better defender than Derozan

Derozan is continuing his trend from the playoffs. jacking up shots like crazy and depending on refs whistle. he'll end up with 42% shooting like last year.

[85BearsDefense]

Man people seriously underrate efficiency and defense. Jimmy Butler is arguably a top 2 wing defender in the league. He also shoots at a 49% clip to Hardens 41%. Not saying Butler is better but Harden has been brutal in the playoffs for the Rockets, hasn't won a series with them and has shot 39% and 37%... Harden has all the flash and great offensive game but Jimmy is a better rounded player. Not to mention Harden (who used to be a damn good defender on OKC) doesn't play a lick of defense on the Rockets.

[85BearsDefense]

That is fine, but it is wrong.

Klay and Butler would not be able to successfully carry their teams. Especially not with 3 starters out.

You have no idea if Butler or Klay could carry a team on their own.

[rockets-fan]

You have no idea if Butler or Klay could carry a team on their own.

Yes I do. Anyone with any basketball IQ can tell when a player is a franchise player and a first option. Klay and Butler are not. Same with parsons, great player but he wanted to be treated as a franchise player and he isn't.

Defend klay and butler all you want, they will never be able to carry the load by them selves.

[rockets-fan]

Man people seriously underrate efficiency and defense. Jimmy Butler is arguably a top 2 wing defender in the league. He also shoots at a 49% clip to Hardens 41%. Not saying Butler is better but Harden has been brutal in the playoffs for the Rockets, hasn't won a series with them and has shot 39% and 37%... Harden has all the flash and great offensive game but Jimmy is a better rounded player. Not to mention Harden (who used to be a damn good defender on OKC) doesn't play a lick of defense on the Rockets.

Haden is tied for the league lead in defensive win shares. Judge his defense on THIS season just like everyone is judging his offense dolley on THIS season.

He's been pretty good defensively, will he keep it up? I seriously doubt it. But don't say he hasn't played a kick of defense. Stats say otherwise.

http://fansided.com/2014/12/03/james-harden-houston-rockets-is-nbas-best-defensive-player/

[CluTcH_c1tY]

Guarantee Thompson and Butler can't carry a team by themselves. Not being biased I love Butlers game been following him since he's a hometown product and all. Harden is slowly starting to shoot better the last 2 games let's hope that trend continues.

[chi-townlove1]

I think some of you should begin rethinking things. Butler owned the almighty Harden tonight. And Klay is still a stud.

[jerellh528]

I'd take butler for sure

[Saddletramp]

I think some of you should begin rethinking things. Butler owned the almighty Harden tonight. And Klay is still a stud.

L O L

How did Butler "own" Harden tonight? Harden was 7-22 for 20 points and Butler was 7-17 for 22 points. And don't forget the Rockets couldn't get a foul call all night as it was a 30-5 edge to the Bulls. Heck, Butler went to the line more than the entire Rockets team. There was the block but it's not as impressive when you know it's on a buzzer beater to end the first.

Better game? Stats wise, barely. A win, sure. Owned? Get the **** outta here.

[chi-townlove1]

The rockets couldn't get a foul call because any time jimmy was guarding harden, it was either an offensive push off on harden (like he does night in and night out) or jimmy played phenomenal defense like he does night in and night out. Butler and the Bulls made harden look lost the majority of the time tonight. He's not such an incredible game changer that many make him out to be. And he's sure as hell not the best shooting guard in the NBA.

[tredigs]

It goes:

Harden
Jimmy/Klay

All three are gangsters.

[Saddletramp]

One push off and it was a flop by Butler. No way a grown man would fall straight back like that on that minimal contact. Especially a strong guy like Butler. The difference in the game wasn't Butler, it was Gasol's early 16 and Mrotic late. Rose, Noah and Butler all had good games but they weren't the difference makers.

Oh, there was one other factor........

[Doogolas]

One push off and it was a flop by Butler. No way a grown man would fall straight back like that on that minimal contact. Especially a strong guy like Butler. The difference in the game wasn't Butler, it was Gasol's early 16 and Mrotic late. Rose, Noah and Butler all had good games but they weren't the difference makers.

Oh, there was one other factor........

You're aware that 7/22 and 20 is like, infinitely worse than 7/17 for 22 right? One of those is awful, one of those is pretty good.

You also left often Harden having only 3 assists and 2 boards. Jimmy had 5 boards and an assist. Jimmy turned it over once, Harden 2 times. Jimmy had 3 steals and a block, Harden had 1 steal and 2 blocks.

Jimmy basically out played him in every facet of basketball. It literally means nothing in terms of who is a better player, but Jimmy absolutely did own Harden. And considering that Harden didn't guard Jimmy but Jimmy did guard Harden after the first 6 minutes of the game it makes it even more impressive on Jimmy's end.

Final note:

10 of Harden's points didn't come against Butler. Harden dropped 7 on Kirk and then a transition 3 that he shot over Rose. There was another transition 2 that was mostly over Kirk but Butler was in the vicinity and didn't play the transition game well on that one, so he isn't guilt free like on the other 10. Jimmy definitely owned Harden in this game.

Again, this doesn't make Jimmy the better player, it's one game. But to pretend that it was even close is a disservice to Harden's abilities, as well as a disservice to how wel Butler played in this game.

[chi-townlove1]

^ what he said

[InRoseWeTrust]

Harden is a great player. Jimmy is a great player.

The only thing I don't get is the guys saying Jimmy couldn't carry a team as a #1 - what do you think he has been doing this entire season?

[Jamiecballer]

Butler is an excellent young player. I will still wait until he settles into a FG % that is somewhere between where it is now and where it was last year to decide just how good.

[tredigs]

Harden is a great player. Jimmy is a great player.

The only thing I don't get is the guys saying Jimmy couldn't carry a team as a #1 - what do you think he has been doing this entire season?

Definitely not "carrying" his teams offensive load.

The Bulls are a 3 headed monster offensively, the Warriors are a 2 headed monster offensively (at least when it comes to scoring), and the Rockets rely primarily on Harden.

[InRoseWeTrust]

Definitely not "carrying" his teams offensive load.

The Bulls are a 3 headed monster offensively, the Warriors are a 2 headed monster offensively (at least when it comes to scoring), and the Rockets rely primarily on Harden.

He has absolutely been the Bulls #1 option this year, with Pau as a #2. If you don't understand that, I really don't know what else to tell you. Does he dominate the ball in the way Harden does? No. But he's absolutely shouldering the lion's share of the offensive burden this year.

[CluTcH_c1tY]

You're aware that 7/22 and 20 is like, infinitely worse than 7/17 for 22 right? One of those is awful, one of those is pretty good.

You also left often Harden having only 3 assists and 2 boards. Jimmy had 5 boards and an assist. Jimmy turned it over once, Harden 2 times. Jimmy had 3 steals and a block, Harden had 1 steal and 2 blocks.

Jimmy basically out played him in every facet of basketball. It literally means nothing in terms of who is a better player, but Jimmy absolutely did own Harden. And considering that Harden didn't guard Jimmy but Jimmy did guard Harden after the first 6 minutes of the game it makes it even more impressive on Jimmy's end.

Final note:

10 of Harden's points didn't come against Butler. Harden dropped 7 on Kirk and then a transition 3 that he shot over Rose. There was another transition 2 that was mostly over Kirk but Butler was in the vicinity and didn't play the transition game well on that one, so he isn't guilt free like on the other 10. Jimmy definitely owned Harden in this game.

Again, this doesn't make Jimmy the better player, it's one game. But to pretend that it was even close is a disservice to Harden's abilities, as well as a disservice to how wel Butler played in this game.
Dude gtfo! That was the worst officiated game I'd seen in the last 3 years. 30-5 free throw disparity while the Bulls were being rewarded with their flopping Butler being one of them. 62 points in the paint and you're going to tell me they only went to the free throw line 5 times? 2 free throws came on and 1s and 1 of them was a tech on Thibs who was barking at the officials the whole game, and the 2 final 2 free throws came in the final minute when the game was already sealed for the Bulls. See you in Houston can't wait to replay the Bulls we better get rewarded with those type of calls to justify the hot garbage I watched last night.

[tredigs]

He has absolutely been the Bulls #1 option this year, with Pau as a #2. If you don't understand that, I really don't know what else to tell you. Does he dominate the ball in the way Harden does? No. But he's absolutely shouldering the lion's share of the offensive burden this year.

Explain. Because the #'s disagree with you. When Pau is on the court he averages 2 less FTA than Jimmy, and 2 more field goal attempts (that's a net of 1 more FGA overall), and he has the same assist%. His USG% is 24.2 to Jimmy's 22.0. Rose has played a handful less games, but in the 25 he has played is averaging 19.6 attempts per-36 to Jimmy's 13.2, and has a massive USG% of 32% to Jimmy's 22%.

When all three are are on the court, the order is Rose>Pau>Jimmy. Butler, despite playing more minutes than them and racking up more shots as the lead dog with the 2nd unit, is ultimately their 2b or 3rd option.

"If you really don't understand that^, I don't know what else to tell you".

[Jamiecballer]

i get what he means. Kyle Lowry carries the Raptors offensively even though Derozan will consume more possession.

[Htownballa1622]

Explain. Because the #'s disagree with you. When Pau is on the court he averages 2 less FTA than Jimmy, and 2 more field goal attempts (that's a net of 1 more FGA overall), and he has the same assist%. His USG% is 24.2 to Jimmy's 22.0. Rose has played a handful less games, but in the 25 he has played is averaging 19.6 attempts per-36 to Jimmy's 13.2, and has a massive USG% of 32% to Jimmy's 22%.

When all three are are on the court, the order is Rose>Pau>Jimmy. Butler, despite playing more minutes than them and racking up more shots as the lead dog with the 2nd unit, is ultimately their 2b or 3rd option.

"If you really don't understand that^, I don't know what else to tell you".

I love it when I agree with u so u can type all that for us :)
thanks lol

[tredigs]

i get what he means. Kyle Lowry carries the Raptors offensively even though Derozan will consume more possession.

That's a different scenario. That offense depends on Lowry's playmaking ability as well. Not the case in Chi with Butler (he's a fine playmaker, just no more so than Pau and given far less opportunity than Rose when he's on the court). At best it's a 3 headed beast.

[Jamiecballer]

That's a different scenario. That offense depends on Lowry's playmaking ability as well. Not the case in Chi with Butler (he's a fine playmaker, just no more so than Pau and given far less opportunity than Rose when he's on the court). At best it's a 3 headed beast.

i'm talking really about scoring only, not even the playmaking. when the raptors need a bucket, it's Lowry. Always Lowry.

[InRoseWeTrust]

Explain. Because the #'s disagree with you. When Pau is on the court he averages 2 less FTA than Jimmy, and 2 more field goal attempts (that's a net of 1 more FGA overall), and he has the same assist%. His USG% is 24.2 to Jimmy's 22.0. Rose has played a handful less games, but in the 25 he has played is averaging 19.6 attempts per-36 to Jimmy's 13.2, and has a massive USG% of 32% to Jimmy's 22%.

When all three are are on the court, the order is Rose>Pau>Jimmy. Butler, despite playing more minutes than them and racking up more shots as the lead dog with the 2nd unit, is ultimately their 2b or 3rd option.

"If you really don't understand that^, I don't know what else to tell you".

You've fallen victim to looking at only advanced metrics (which I love and support as a piece of the whole) while completely disregarding tape. You can't do that. Pulling up the Basketball Reference Player Comparison Tool will never, ever, ever give you a complete story of who a team's numer one option is. I mean, by your logic, Rose is the number one option for the Bulls right now. No half-sane, rational basketball fan who has actually watched the Bulls would ever make that assertion with a straight face.

You have to look at the entire game, including who gets the ball when the Bulls need a basket. Typically, this year, it's been Jimmy. He's done the bulk of the scoring, and he's done it far more efficiently than Pau despite the fact that big men typically dominate non-3PT shooting guards. Yet, Jimmy is rolling with a .599 TS% and a .551 FTt in comparison to Gasol rolling with .540/.326, respectively. He's obviously the teams leading scorer and he's doing it with a elite efficiency due to his ability to get to the line.

Moreover, when you put these stats into context with tape, you'll see Jimmy importance shine through. The ball finds him when they need points, and he's been able to force the issue and get to the line at will. He's also average 40 mpg, which can't be overlooked either. I think Pau's down near 35, and it wouldn't surprise me if Jimmy has seen significantly more 4th quarter/crunch time minutes given Thibs' willingness to play Niko in those spots.


Point being, taking the entire game into context, Jimmy carries the offense (with Pau as the number 2), and it's been that way all year.

[True Rocket]

Good game for Butler last night. Harden still better then him at everything aside from perimeter defense.

[InRoseWeTrust]

Good game for Butler last night. Harden still better then him at everything aside from perimeter defense.

I'll give you this statement, mostly, but I think it oversimplifies the comparison.

Harden is still a better scorer no matter how you look at the numbers. He's been a more consistent 3PT, shoots more, and even this year with everything Jimmy is doing, gets to the line a bit more than him.

That being said, I do think Butler is a better rebounder, and I also think its fair to say that the gap between their offensive output is much smaller than the gap between their defensive impact. Jimmy still takes him to school there, even with Harden's notable improvements on that end this year.

[Tony_Starks]

Klay Thompson, closely followed by Jimmy Buckets_>>>>>>>>> the rest

[InRoseWeTrust]

Klay Thompson, closely followed by Jimmy Buckets_>>>>>>>>> the rest

TBH, I just haven't watched enough of Klay to make the comparison. I've heard raves about his D, but haven't seen enough of him to form any opinion.

[tredigs]

You've fallen victim to looking at only advanced metrics (which I love and support as a piece of the whole) while completely disregarding tape. You can't do that. Pulling up the Basketball Reference Player Comparison Tool will never, ever, ever give you a complete story of who a team's numer one option is. I mean, by your logic, Rose is the number one option for the Bulls right now. No half-sane, rational basketball fan who has actually watched the Bulls would ever make that assertion with a straight face.

You have to look at the entire game, including who gets the ball when the Bulls need a basket. Typically, this year, it's been Jimmy. He's done the bulk of the scoring, and he's done it far more efficiently than Pau despite the fact that big men typically dominate non-3PT shooting guards. Yet, Jimmy is rolling with a .599 TS% and a .551 FTt in comparison to Gasol rolling with .540/.326, respectively. He's obviously the teams leading scorer and he's doing it with a elite efficiency due to his ability to get to the line.

Moreover, when you put these stats into context with tape, you'll see Jimmy importance shine through. The ball finds him when they need points, and he's been able to force the issue and get to the line at will. He's also average 40 mpg, which can't be overlooked either. I think Pau's down near 35, and it wouldn't surprise me if Jimmy has seen significantly more 4th quarter/crunch time minutes given Thibs' willingness to play Niko in those spots.


Point being, taking the entire game into context, Jimmy carries the offense (with Pau as the number 2), and it's been that way all year.

There's just a big difference between who they're going to for a bucket most of the time (I'll take your word that it's Jimmy - you obviously have seen them more than me), and someone who is "carrying the load offensively", which is what you originally said. The load on Chi is spread out offensively, and when Rose has been in he's the one taking most of the shots and dominating the possession. Pau is right there with Jimmy as a focal point of the O (though yes, Jimmy's relentless attacking of the basket nets him more FT's and a higher TS).

Jimmy's a stud, but he doesn't carry an offense as a #1 in any fashion comparable to what Harden does. Completely different scenarios, and to assume he could by saying that's what he's doing in Chi this season is off base.

[kozelkid]

Definitely not "carrying" his teams offensive load.

The Bulls are a 3 headed monster offensively, the Warriors are a 2 headed monster offensively (at least when it comes to scoring), and the Rockets rely primarily on Harden.

Eh, Bulls *can* be a 3-headed monster but they aren't there yet. Not while Rose continues to be inconsistent. Jimmy has definitely been the best option on the Bulls thus far, followed closely by Pau.

[InRoseWeTrust]

There's just a big difference between who they're going to for a bucket most of the time (I'll take your word that it's Jimmy - you obviously have seen them more than me), and someone who is "carrying the load offensively", which is what you originally said. The load on Chi is spread out offensively, and when Rose has been in he's the one taking most of the shots and dominating the possession. Pau is right there with Jimmy as a focal point of the O (though yes, Jimmy's relentless attacking of the basket nets him more FT's and a higher TS).

Jimmy's a stud, but he doesn't carry an offense as a #1 in any fashion comparable to what Harden does. Completely different scenarios, and to assume he could by saying that's what he's doing in Chi this season is off base.

Honestly, I feel like were more arguing about a difference in interpretation of terminology. I think you're conflating "#1 Option/carries the offense" with the way/extent to which Harden does so on that end. Harden is one of a very few players who completely dominates his teams offensive possessions (see, e.g., Kobe). The Rockets are structured/focused around Harden offensively in a way very few teams treat a single player.

That being said, I don't believe that just because Jimmy isn't at that level, he's not carrying the Bulls offense right now. Horn to horn, he's been the most important player for us on offense. He's the leading scorer, doing it efficiently (hence why he may have less FGA than Pau), and is slowly starting to become a better playmaker for his teammates.

[tredigs]

^I agree with you and like that argument enough to end it there.

[InRoseWeTrust]

^I agree with you and like that argument enough to end it there.

Sounds good. We should probably start trolling each other to fit in to the PSD tradition though, no?

[Tony_Starks]

Klay Thompson, closely followed by Jimmy Buckets_>>>>>>>>> the rest

TBH, I just haven't watched enough of Klay to make the comparison. I've heard raves about his D, but haven't seen enough of him to form any opinion.

I give Klay the edge because he's absolutely wet on offense and even though he's no Jimmy on D he's very respectable on that end.

[Saddletramp]

You're aware that 7/22 and 20 is like, infinitely worse than 7/17 for 22 right? One of those is awful, one of those is pretty good.

You also left often Harden having only 3 assists and 2 boards. Jimmy had 5 boards and an assist. Jimmy turned it over once, Harden 2 times. Jimmy had 3 steals and a block, Harden had 1 steal and 2 blocks.

I saw the rest of those stats and none of them out weighed what the other guy did. You make it sound like Butler tripled all of Hardens stats. Pretty weak. And I don't think you know what the word infinitely means.


Jimmy basically out played him in every facet of basketball.

Except assists and blocks. Apparently Harden was, according to your math, infinitely better at those.



It literally means nothing in terms of who is a better player, but Jimmy absolutely did own Harden.

The first game this year that they face each other and some guy says that:

I think some of you should begin rethinking things. Butler owned the almighty Harden tonight. And Klay is still a stud.
So it apparently does mean something to somebody, which is why we're here talking about it. More opinion swaying.


And considering that Harden didn't guard Jimmy but Jimmy did guard Harden after the first 6 minutes of the game it makes it even more impressive on Jimmy's end.

Final note:

10 of Harden's points didn't come against Butler. Harden dropped 7 on Kirk and then a transition 3 that he shot over Rose. There was another transition 2 that was mostly over Kirk but Butler was in the vicinity and didn't play the transition game well on that one, so he isn't guilt free like on the other 10. Jimmy definitely owned Harden in this game.

Oh, break downs. Let's go over switches, team defensive breakdowns, blown calls and flops, too. We'll be here forever.


Again, this doesn't make Jimmy the better player, it's one game. But to pretend that it was even close is a disservice to Harden's abilities, as well as a disservice to how wel Butler played in this game.

You don't even know what close means so why am I wasting my time?

Bulls won. A lot of Bulls played well and won the game as a team. They looked good. Harden is still > than Butler, though.

[Saddletramp]

You've fallen victim to looking at only advanced metrics (which I love and support as a piece of the whole) while completely disregarding tape. You can't do that. Pulling up the Basketball Reference Player Comparison Tool will never, ever, ever give you a complete story of who a team's numer one option is.

Well, I don't know about you guys, but I feel silly. I fell victim. According to you here, unless we've seen every game Harden, Butler, Derozan and Thompson have played and devoured all of those players advanced stats and metrics, then we shouldn't compare them and to do so wouldn't be right.

Guess I'll have to bow out of the conversation because I have to admit, I haven't seen every game any of the guys have been in. I missed two Rockets games and have only caught a half dozen Warriors games and a few Chi/Tor games. Have fun debating strangers on the internet about stuff that literally none of us can according to your, I don't know, "Who's Better" rules.

[InRoseWeTrust]

Well, I don't know about you guys, but I feel silly. I fell victim. According to you here, unless we've seen every game Harden, Butler, Derozan and Thompson have played and devoured all of those players advanced stats and metrics, then we shouldn't compare them and to do so would be right.

Guess I'll have to bow out of the conversation because I have to admit, I haven't seen every game any of the guys have been in. I missed two Rockets games and have only caught a half dozen Warriors games and a few Chi/Tor games. Have fun debating strangers on the internet about stuff that literally none of us can according to your, I don't know, "Who's Better" rules.

Yeah, too bad I didn't say that. You're either willfully misrepresenting me or just plainly misunderstanding what was written on two distinct points:

(1) I never said you need to watch every game. You don't need to watch close to every game. The point was, when assessing whether someone carries the burden of a team's offense or is a "#1" option for that team, you can't rely solely on advanced metrics. They are extremely important, but you need to incorporate actual tape into that discussion or it will never be a completely accurate assessment.

(2) I wasn't even comparing Jimmy to Harden in terms of "who's better, so please, try not to blatantly make things up when you speak about me or what I've said. Another poster and I were amicably debating whether or not it's fair to call Jimmy a #1 option/player who carries the offensive load for the Bulls. It had nothing to do with Jimmy being better than Harden. Where you pulled that out of, I have no f'ing clue.

In short, if you're going to write faux-pithy/sarcastic responses, make sure you actually know what you're purporting to respond to.

[Doogolas]

I saw the rest of those stats and none of them out weighed what the other guy did. You make it sound like Butler tripled all of Hardens stats. Pretty weak. And I don't think you know what the word infinitely means.



Except assists and blocks. Apparently Harden was, according to your math, infinitely better at those.




The first game this year that they face each other and some guy says that:

So it apparently does mean something to somebody, which is why we're here talking about it. More opinion swaying.



Oh, break downs. Let's go over switches, team defensive breakdowns, blown calls and flops, too. We'll be here forever.



You don't even know what close means so why am I wasting my time?

Bulls won. A lot of Bulls played well and won the game as a team. They looked good. Harden is still > than Butler, though.

Do you know what exaggeration is? I don't think you do.

One assist and one block isn't noteworthy. Butler clearly outplayed Harden in this one game. It absolutely wasn't close. Butler had the job of guarding the best shooting guard in the NBA, and he caused Harden to put up worse numbers than his season averages in every offensive facet.

Harden only guarded Jimmy a little bit, most of the time he did not, which is something that I found confusing as hell. But all the same, Jimmy had a very difficult defensive assignment and knocked it out of the park. We don't need to go over all the switches and such because there weren't that many. The 10 points I referred to literally had nothing to do with Butler. Harden owned Kirk three times, and got a fast break three. None of that had to do with guys switching off.

When Butler was on Harden in the half court he killed him. That's not anything that can really even be argued.

Meanwhile, Butler scored more points on fewer shot attempts. 7/17 for 22 is a solid offensive game in terms of efficiency. 7/22 for 20 (something like that) is not. That is bad. Jimmy Butler was something to the affect of 20 points better per 100 possessions. On this game, Jimmy Butler absolutely dominated James Harden. It wasn't close, to argue that it was is just silly.

[Saddletramp]

Yeah, too bad I didn't say that. You're either willfully misrepresenting me or just plainly misunderstanding what was written on two distinct points:

(1) I never said you need to watch every game. You don't need to watch close to every game. The point was, when assessing whether someone carries the burden of a team's offense or is a "#1" option for that team, you can't rely solely on advanced metrics. They are extremely important, but you need to incorporate actual tape into that discussion or it will never be a completely accurate assessment.

(2) I wasn't even comparing Jimmy to Harden in terms of "who's better, so please, try not to blatantly make things up when you speak about me or what I've said. Another poster and I were amicably debating whether or not it's fair to call Jimmy a #1 option/player who carries the offensive load for the Bulls. It had nothing to do with Jimmy being better than Harden. Where you pulled that out of, I have no f'ing clue.

In short, if you're going to write faux-pithy/sarcastic responses, make sure you actually know what you're purporting to respond to.

So which tape of players do you need to watch? The good stuff or the bad stuff? Stats encompass a broader stroke of play and doesn't cherry pick certain plays that the eye does on tape. Based on the limited tape I've seen some scrub players play like all stars and vice versa. When in doubt, go with stats, they don't lie.

And as far as this not being about Butler and Harden and it just being about Butler maybe or maybe not being a number one option, this is a who's better thread and if you have to use stats and the infallible eye test to prove a guy is his teams number one option on his team then how on earth can you put him over a clear cut number one like Harden? You know, because that's what this thread's about.

Butler has the better team, the healthier team, the better coach and he's in a weaker conference and they are 1 game ahead of the Rockets in the overall standings. Also, he's in a contract year and when a guys stats go up in a contract year, I always hear it's a fluke of he wants to get paid or whatever. Butler is doing it and he's in the MVP consideration and people are putting him above or on the same level of guys like Harden and Klay. I'm not saying he's a fluke, but let's calm down on anointing him as the best at his position.

[Saddletramp]

Do you know what exaggeration is? I don't think you do.

One assist and one block isn't noteworthy. Butler clearly outplayed Harden in this one game. It absolutely wasn't close. Butler had the job of guarding the best shooting guard in the NBA, and he caused Harden to put up worse numbers than his season averages in every offensive facet.

Harden only guarded Jimmy a little bit, most of the time he did not, which is something that I found confusing as hell. But all the same, Jimmy had a very difficult defensive assignment and knocked it out of the park. We don't need to go over all the switches and such because there weren't that many. The 10 points I referred to literally had nothing to do with Butler. Harden owned Kirk three times, and got a fast break three. None of that had to do with guys switching off.

When Butler was on Harden in the half court he killed him. That's not anything that can really even be argued.

Meanwhile, Butler scored more points on fewer shot attempts. 7/17 for 22 is a solid offensive game in terms of efficiency. 7/22 for 20 (something like that) is not. That is bad. Jimmy Butler was something to the affect of 20 points better per 100 possessions. On this game, Jimmy Butler absolutely dominated James Harden. It wasn't close, to argue that it was is just silly.

So words like dominating and owning are exaggerations because while he had a better game, he certainly wasn't dominating or owning anybody. So stop exaggerating.

[InRoseWeTrust]

So which tape of players do you need to watch? The good stuff or the bad stuff? Stats encompass a broader stroke of play and doesn't cherry pick certain plays that the eye does on tape. Based on the limited tape I've seen some scrub players play like all stars and vice versa. When in doubt, go with stats, they don't lie.

And as far as this not being about Butler and Harden and it just being about Butler maybe or maybe not being a number one option, this is a who's better thread and if you have to use stats and the infallible eye test to prove a guy is his teams number one option on his team then how on earth can you put him over a clear cut number one like Harden? You know, because that's what this thread's about.

Butler has the better team, the healthier team, the better coach and he's in a weaker conference and they are 1 game ahead of the Rockets in the overall standings. Also, he's in a contract year and when a guys stats go up in a contract year, I always hear it's a fluke of he wants to get paid or whatever. Butler is doing it and he's in the MVP consideration and people are putting him above or on the same level of guys like Harden and Klay. I'm not saying he's a fluke, but let's calm down on anointing him as the best at his position.

(1) Don't tell me what or what not I was talking about with another poster. We digressed (slightly) into a separate discussion regarding whether or not Butler could be labeled a #1 option for his team, in the context of him being compared to Harden. Minor digressions are the nature of forums. Get over yourself. You clearly made an asinine and incorrect assumption about what my discussions regarded, and now you're backtracking like a petulant child because you got called out on it.

(2) I'm not anointing him as the best at his position, so stop lecturing me about it. Is he at, closely above, or closely under the level of play of Klay this season? Yes. He is. I'm sorry that offends you for some reason. Obviously you have something hard in your pants for the Bulls and/or their fan base.

(3) There isn't a magic amount of tape you need to watch to answer the question I referenced in (1). My issue was that to make the determination using only advanced stats, and nothing else, would be foolish. I'm not saying "don't go with stats." I'm saying "go with stats and healthy dose of what you see." In fact, I've been utterly clear from my first post in this thread that I believe advanced stats are tremendously important to the discussion.

(4) And really? Butler has the better team? Because I'm told time and time against the Bulls would be "just another fringe playoff team" out West. Funny how that narrative shifts when it's convenient.

[mc_9]

Good game for Butler last night. Harden still better then him at everything aside from perimeter defense.

That's a pretty big thing. There a two sides to the game.

Butler is an elite defender who is given the responsibility to guarding the opposing team best wing player whilst also leading the bulls for scoring. Whereas Harden is a terrible defender.

I agree Harden is a better player, and is having a great year offensively. But the gap isn't that big when you factor in the defensive side of the game.

[MTar786]

i feel harden will get the nod because he is more of a vet than klay and jimmy... but i think ultimately jimmy and klay will or already are better. i think harden is over rated. but thats just me. he was at 40%fg for the most part of the season. and is still currently in the low 40's. Sorry thats not good enough imo for a guy in his prime. He is good at getting to the line.. but it doesnt make up for horrible shooting and horrible defense. (a superstar sg that takes 20 shots or more should average 45% at minimum or he's not helping the team imo scoring wise) klay and butler still need one, maybe two more seasons to prove themselves but they are def the real deal. Hardens stats look sexy.. but imo very deceiving

[MTar786]

That's a pretty big thing. There a two sides to the game.

Butler is an elite defender who is given the responsibility to guarding the opposing team best wing player whilst also leading the bulls for scoring. Whereas Harden is a terrible defender.

I agree Harden is a better player, and is having a great year offensively. But the gap isn't that big when you factor in the defensive side of the game.

well i actually think butler is also leaps and bounds better at help defense, one on one defense, and rebounding. Also, he is more of an efficient shooter. smarter decision maker.. plays within the system better. butler is also scoring well and is shooting way less and averaging better percentages accross the board.

[DaBear]

i feel harden will get the nod because he is more of a vet than klay and jimmy... but i think ultimately jimmy and klay will or already are better. i think harden is over rated. but thats just me. he was at 40%fg for the most part of the season. and is still currently in the low 40's. Sorry thats not good enough imo for a guy in his prime. He is good at getting to the line.. but it doesnt make up for horrible shooting and horrible defense. (a superstar sg that takes 20 shots or more should average 45% at minimum or he's not helping the team imo scoring wise) klay and butler still need one more season to prove themselves but they are def the real deal.

Butler is better than Harden THIS year.

[tredigs]

i feel harden will get the nod because he is more of a vet than klay and jimmy... but i think ultimately jimmy and klay will or already are better. i think harden is over rated. but thats just me. he was at 40%fg for the most part of the season. and is still currently in the low 40's. Sorry thats not good enough imo for a guy in his prime. He is good at getting to the line.. but it doesnt make up for horrible shooting and horrible defense. (a superstar sg that takes 20 shots or more should average 44.5-45% at minimum or he's not helping the team imo scoring wise) klay and butler still need one more season to prove themselves but they are def the real deal.

He takes 7 threes a night. This isn't yesteryears SG and basic FG% is an outdated/mostly useless stat. To call his shooting horrible is equal to saying you don't watch him play basketball or understand basic stats. While leading the league in scoring on a higher efficiency (59% TS) than a guy like Kobe has ever reached, he's also a great playmaker, a +rebounder and showing to be - at the very least - a guy who can be on the floor alongside an elite defense, if not also contributing to it. Welcome to 2015.

[MTar786]

Butler is better than Harden THIS year.

i agree with you.

[MTar786]

He takes 7 threes a night. This isn't yesteryears SG and basic FG% is an outdated/mostly useless stat. To call his shooting horrible is equal to saying you don't watch him play basketball or understand basic stats. While leading the league in scoring on a higher efficiency (59% TS) than a guy like Kobe has ever reached, he's also a great playmaker, a +rebounder and showing to be - at the very least - a guy who can be on the floor alongside an elite defense, if not also contributing to it. Welcome to 2015.

what do you mean welcome to 2015? does that mean harden is allowed to be a horrible shooter and defender?

and btw i hope ur not trying to comapre harden to a prime kobe? lololololololollololol

[lol, please]

I don't think you could find a sane rockets fan on earth that would take Harden over Klay, much less anyone else.

[tredigs]

what do you mean welcome to 2015? does that mean harden is allowed to be a horrible shooter and defender?

and btw i hope ur not trying to comapre harden to a prime kobe? lololololololollololol

I'm telling you that he's currently scoring at a more efficient level than prime Kobe (albeit a lower volume).

The fact that you seemingly don't understand the difference between a 2 and a 3 or that Harden is in fact a very solid shooter (OMGODZ but his FG% is below 45%!!#*&), is why I'm welcoming you to 2015 - where strictly looking at FG% should be a thing of the past - especially if the guy in question is taking 7 threes a game. If it makes you feel fuzzier about his game, he's a career 50% FG shooter from inside the arc. That's also better than Kobe.

[Saddletramp]

(1) Don't tell me what or what not I was talking about with another poster. We digressed (slightly) into a separate discussion regarding whether or not Butler could be labeled a #1 option for his team, in the context of him being compared to Harden. Minor digressions are the nature of forums. Get over yourself. You clearly made an asinine and incorrect assumption about what my discussions regarded, and now you're backtracking like a petulant child because you got called out on it.

(2) I'm not anointing him as the best at his position, so stop lecturing me about it. Is he at, closely above, or closely under the level of play of Klay this season? Yes. He is. I'm sorry that offends you for some reason. Obviously you have something hard in your pants for the Bulls and/or their fan base.

(3) There isn't a magic amount of tape you need to watch to answer the question I referenced in (1). My issue was that to make the determination using only advanced stats, and nothing else, would be foolish. I'm not saying "don't go with stats." I'm saying "go with stats and healthy dose of what you see." In fact, I've been utterly clear from my first post in this thread that I believe advanced stats are tremendously important to the discussion.

(4) And really? Butler has the better team? Because I'm told time and time against the Bulls would be "just another fringe playoff team" out West. Funny how that narrative shifts when it's convenient.

1) I only referenced what I quoted. You said you can't get a complete story on who's the number one option on a team without watching tape. That's open ended and subjective. Not once last night did I think Butler was their clear cut number one option. They play a team game and each guy played as the number at times. Pau early, then Rose for a bit then Mrotic late. Butler and Noah had great plays throughout the game but I didn't see "clear cut" number one on anybody. I watched the game/tape and it wasn't the first time I watched the game/tape of then this year and my feelings were consistent. How much do I need to watch to get a clear cut notion of who their ...........ahhhhh, who cares.

2) Not talking about Klay, so I assume you mean Harden. Neither are on Harden's level (yet?).

3) Same as above. As someone else said, they seem to be more like a three-headed beast. Those are nice to have. You go with what's working.

4) Better coach? Check. Healthier? (Besides Rose missing some time)? Check. Better bench? Check. The starting five, all things considered, are about even. And they play in the East. I've never said the Bulls would be just another fringe playoff team in the West, so don't lump me in with all of that. I'd see Chicago being right about where they are now if the played in the West.


And I don't have a hard on against the Bulls or their fanbase. My wife is from Highland Park and grew up in Jordan's 90's (wearing 23 on her HS team) seeing Bill Cartwright on the local playground and I get to hear her reminisce about those days and I wish I was there. Aaron Brooks is still one of my favorite players, I hate Noah's screaming but love his defense and passing (and you gotta respect anybody with that shot that actually makes a basket or two) and Mrotic looks like a beast in the making. Gibson has been rumored to be a fit in Houston for a few years now and I'm on board (although DMo has been more consistent lately). My only two "beefs" are I hated Boozer but he's gone and Rose just seems like an emo kid stuck in an amazing athletes body to me. The whole wanting to be healthy when he's retired thing was an immature thing to say and he just always looks like he's one bad comment away from suicide. Remember when he wouldn't smile during the All-Star introductions a few years ago because.......I forgot what he said but it was very emo-y and I just rolled my eyes. Like a petulant child, I guess.

[Saddletramp]

I don't think you could find a sane rockets fan on earth that would take Harden over Klay, much less anyone else.

lol, please

[xxplayerxx23]

I don't think you could find a sane rockets fan on earth that would take Harden over Klay, much less anyone else.


Homer
Harden is way better

[rockets-fan]

Harden is the only one that has PROVEN that he can carry a team on his own. Jimmy as well I guess but not like Hardens.

Harden
Jimmy
Klay


Until Klay can prove that he can carry a team, you just can't put him above Harden or Jimmy...

I'm not saying he can't carry a team, but he hasn't proved it

[Doogolas]

So words like dominating and owning are exaggerations because while he had a better game, he certainly wasn't dominating or owning anybody. So stop exaggerating.

He had a much, much, much better game. Use whatever word you want, he was far superior to Harden in the game last night.

Keep in mind: I believe Harden is the better player.

I wouldn't trade Jimmy for Harden, but only because he's been my favorite player on my favorite team for 3 years. But Harden is the better player.

Regardless, Jimmy bested him by a wide margin yesterday.

[mjt20mik]

Harden is a superstar.. the others are all-stars. Easily Harden.

[chi-townlove1]

That whole superstar all star thing doesn't work man. Harden isn't a superstar anyways. A superstar is an individual who is phenomenal in every aspect of the sport that he or she is involved in.

Mike Trout
LBJ/KD
Aaron Rodgers
Sidney Crosby
Lionel messi/Christiano Ronaldo

Those are SUPER STARS.

[lol, please]

That whole superstar all star thing doesn't work man. Harden isn't a superstar anyways. A superstar is an individual who is phenomenal in every aspect of the sport that he or she is involved in.

Mike Trout
LBJ/KD
Aaron Rodgers
Sidney Crosby
Lionel messi/Christiano Ronaldo

Those are SUPER STARS.
Add curry to that list.

[kozelkid]

Add curry to that list.
Not yet.

Though I would add Kershaw and Watt.

[PurpleLynch]

Right now is Harden. He showed that he can be a number one option on offense and carry a team scoring. Butler is second ,but he plays for the best team in the weakest conference.
Plus Pau Gasol has outplayed anyone in last game.What a great player. Really underrated.

[aLau10]

Many factors to consider, one mentioned earlier by everyone else is the making of the team itself, but I'll take Klay.

Harden plays on the team as the #1 guy, he handles the ball more than Beverly does. And I am still uncertain about his D at times.
Butler is great defensively, the outburst on the offensive end may be his real self or simply due to contract year where, alike to many other players, he stepping it up
Derozan, IM a raps fan i like DD but the guys inconsistent as ******* and he doesnt shoot all that well and defense is decent only.

Klay seems to be the safest bet. and I feel he will become one of the better players in the league within a year or two.

[Hawkeye15]

what do you mean welcome to 2015? does that mean harden is allowed to be a horrible shooter and defender?

and btw i hope ur not trying to comapre harden to a prime kobe? lololololololollololol

the name of the game is efficiency, and Harden is that. The whole goal is to score as many points as possible for each shot attempt you take. Harden is better at that than Kobe ever was.

He wasn't comparing Harden to Kobe, just his pure scoring efficiency.

[Hawkeye15]

I don't think you could find a sane rockets fan on earth that would take Harden over Klay, much less anyone else.

I would. Give Harden Curry dragging all that attention away from him. Would love to see him with that freedom.

[JordansBulls]

Jimmy shut down Harden the other day in the 2nd half making he go 0-9.

[chi-townlove1]

[QUOTE=JordansBulls;29483720]Jimmy shut down Harden the other day in the 2nd half making he go 0-9.[/QUOTE


And when I said owned, this is what I meant. Kirk guarded harden and got pooped on. Then Jimmy took over and it was a totally different scenario. And jimmy continued performing on the offensive end. While harden got to watch Ariza guard jimmy, while he guarded kirk.

[WOwolfOL]

Rose dominates the ball and has become quite the chucker, but I would not at all say he carries the offensive load more than Butler. Rose just hasn't accepted that his current offensive game is dog **** yet, and he continues to force shots before playing the role of a PG.

Gasol on the other hand, certainly has a case for carrying the offense over Butler. Gasol has been a complete revelation for the team. Well, he and Butler both.

[mc_9]

Rose dominates the ball and has become quite the chucker, but I would not at all say he carries the offensive load more than Butler. Rose just hasn't accepted that his current offensive game is dog **** yet, and he continues to force shots before playing the role of a PG.

Gasol on the other hand, certainly has a case for carrying the offense over Butler. Gasol has been a complete revelation for the team. Well, he and Butler both.

Amazing to think how good the Bulls could be, with their best 2 players over the last 6 years struggling to find their form through a variety of reasons. If Rose can reach even an All Star level of player, and Noah can get back to his form last year they will be super hard to beat.

[MTar786]

the name of the game is efficiency, and Harden is that. The whole goal is to score as many points as possible for each shot attempt you take. Harden is better at that than Kobe ever was.

He wasn't comparing Harden to Kobe, just his pure scoring efficiency.

so youre telling me you would take harden over a prime kobe if you were a gm and you were starting a team? name of the game right????

harden is a trash shooter.. The only thing il give him is that he is really good at getting to the line and hitting his freethrows. sorry but thats not the whole package to me..

[MTar786]

also harden has no business shooting 7 3's a game. hes not that good at them.

[SilverFalco8]

Butler Klay Derozen.

[dhopisthename]

also harden has no business shooting 7 3's a game. hes not that good at them.

he is making 36% of them right now. to put that into perspective he would need to shoot about 54% from 2pt range to equal the same efficiency.

[lol, please]

so youre telling me you would take harden over a prime kobe if you were a gm and you were starting a team? name of the game right????

harden is a trash shooter.. The only thing il give him is that he is really good at getting to the line and hitting his freethrows. sorry but thats not the whole package to me..
Well said.

[Verbal Christ]

trash shooter, HA! his stepback jumper is the wettest in the game.

[Cal827]

In all honesty, this is a two player race to me. All of these guys are good, but the two most balanced are Thompson and Butler.

While Harden might be the best of the group offensively, his deficiencies defensively are enough to scare me away. If he can even move to average range, than he can probably be the #1 in this convo IMO.

As a Raptor fan, I love Derozan, but I don't think he can really match-up with these guys (at least of now). He's become a very good Defender, but Butler is absolutely better than him on that end, as is Thompson. He also has issues shooting the ball (excellent driving, but makes me cringe a little when I see him take 3s still lol). I honestly don't see why he's in the conversation with the other 3. Two are much better defenders, and all of them are much, much better offensively, especially Harden.

It's really hard to call between Butler and Thompson for me. I guess it depends on what do you want.

Thompson is better offensively and has more range, while Butler is the defensively minded SG.

My list would probably be

Butler
Thompson
Harden


Derozan

[mngopher35]

also harden has no business shooting 7 3's a game. hes not that good at them.

What? Can you explain what you mean by this, he is shooting them at a 36% clip so far this year...

[rockets-fan]

In all honesty, this is a two player race to me. All of these guys are good, but the two most balanced are Thompson and Butler.

While Harden might be the best of the group offensively, his deficiencies defensively are enough to scare me away. If he can even move to average range, than he can probably be the #1 in this convo IMO.

As a Raptor fan, I love Derozan, but I don't think he can really match-up with these guys (at least of now). He's become a very good Defender, but Butler is absolutely better than him on that end, as is Thompson. He also has issues shooting the ball (excellent driving, but makes me cringe a little when I see him take 3s still lol)

It's really hard to call between Butler and Thompson for me. I guess it depends on what do you want.

Thompson is better offensively and has more range, while Butler is the defensively minded SG.

My list would probably be

Butler
Thompson
Harden
Derozan

The fact that people aren't recognizing Hardens defensive improvement amazes me. Also, Butlernks the only one other than harden that could be a number 1 option. Take steph curry out and Klay is just an allstar AT BEST. He could never carry the offensive load that people like Curry,Harden, KD, Westy, ect.

Klay is not in that group im sorry

[Goose17]

The fact that people aren't recognizing Hardens defensive improvement amazes me.

Improving defensively doesn't necessarily make you a good defender. Going from awful to sort of above average isn't the same as being a good defender.



Also, Butlernks the only one other than harden that could be a number 1 option. Take steph curry out and Klay is just an allstar AT BEST. He could never carry the offensive load that people like Curry,Harden, KD, Westy, ect.

Klay is not in that group im sorry

Hmm. I can see why you would think that, but people have said similar things about Harden when he was in OKC. People said similar things about Curry coming out of college but that was more due to size than lack of ability.

I think you're probably right. He's going to work best as a second option, similar to Ray Allen, Manu, Hurley, etc

But you shouldn't really state your opinion as fact, we have no idea what his ceiling is at this point.

[rockets-fan]

Improving defensively doesn't necessarily make you a good defender. Going from awful to sort of above average isn't the same as being a good defender.




Hmm. I can see why you would think that, but people have said similar things about Harden when he was in OKC. People said similar things about Curry coming out of college but that was more due to size than lack of ability.

I think you're probably right. He's going to work best as a second option, similar to Ray Allen, Manu, Hurley, etc

But you shouldn't really state your opinion as fact, we have no idea what his ceiling is at this point.

True, I shouldn't states opinion as fact. I have to disagree with you about harden. I knew, as did morey, that Harden was a superstar. Now just because his style of play is easily hated doesn't mean he isn't deserving of that title. If it was easy, everyone could do what he does and that is obviously not the case.

I know playing slightly above average defense isn't a big deal. But when you go from being a liability, to actually helping on defense. It's huge for someone with hardens offensive game. Now I'm not calling im a two way player at all, but most posters think he is still the same as last year and he is way better defensively than last year.

I just dont see Butler or Klay being able to take the Rockets to the playoffs in the west. Not as Number 1 options.

Like you said, Klay as an Allen type player is perfect. He deserves that Max and should be a cornerstone for the Warriors, or any organization, but not THE cornerstone.

[CluTcH_c1tY]

The Harden hate is real. It's alright he'll just keep balling.

[Goose17]

True, I shouldn't states opinion as fact. I have to disagree with you about harden. I knew, as did morey, that Harden was a superstar. Now just because his style of play is easily hated doesn't mean he isn't deserving of that title. If it was easy, everyone could do what he does and that is obviously not the case.

I know playing slightly above average defense isn't a big deal. But when you go from being a liability, to actually helping on defense. It's huge for someone with hardens offensive game. Now I'm not calling im a two way player at all, but most posters think he is still the same as last year and he is way better defensively than last year.

I just dont see Butler or Klay being able to take the Rockets to the playoffs in the west. Not as Number 1 options.

Like you said, Klay as an Allen type player is perfect. He deserves that Max and should be a cornerstone for the Warriors, or any organization, but not THE cornerstone.

Yeah we can agree on almost all of that. And Curry isn't getting much recognition for his defensive improvement either, while guarding the opponents starting PG, he's holding them to an average of 34.8% from the field. So I understand the irritation lol.

[lol, please]

Neither is lee for that matter. He's been doing great defensively with limited minutes.

[True Rocket]

I don't think you could find a sane rockets fan on earth that would take Harden over Klay, much less anyone else.

If you ever need some more crack PM me I gotta couple plugs just hit me up.

Smh.

All 30 GMs would select Harden over Thompson. And that's not to take anything away from him. He's an excellent player having a great season. He's a star but not superstar.

[85BearsDefense]

L O L

How did Butler "own" Harden tonight? Harden was 7-22 for 20 points and Butler was 7-17 for 22 points. And don't forget the Rockets couldn't get a foul call all night as it was a 30-5 edge to the Bulls. Heck, Butler went to the line more than the entire Rockets team. There was the block but it's not as impressive when you know it's on a buzzer beater to end the first.

Better game? Stats wise, barely. A win, sure. Owned? Get the **** outta here.

Butler guarded him the entire 2nd half and James Harden was 0-9 from the field bud. He owned his ***.

[Saddletramp]

Butler guarded him the entire 2nd half and James Harden was 0-9 from the field bud. He owned his ***.

This has already been responded to. Stop wasting everyone's time.

[mightybosstone]

I don't think you could find a sane rockets fan on earth that would take Harden over Klay, much less anyone else.

Uhhh... No sir. I don't think you could find a sane Warriors fan who would take Klay over Harden. Harden is head and shoulders above Klay, and any reasonable basketball fan would agree with me. This is easily one of the most homer statements you've ever made, and that's REALLY saying something, because you're easily the biggest Warriors homer on this site.

[northsider]

The fact that people aren't recognizing Hardens defensive improvement amazes me. Also, Butlernks the only one other than harden that could be a number 1 option. Take steph curry out and Klay is just an allstar AT BEST. He could never carry the offensive load that people like Curry,Harden, KD, Westy, ect.

Klay is not in that group im sorry

Cause in small sample size we've been down this road with pathetic defenders. Allot of it is just these guys don't hustle or play defense with any sort of tenacity or refuse to work on better approaches to defense.

I'm not saying he isn't becoming a good defender cause it's possible for players to improve. I am pointing out why anyone is reserve about buying any of that on limited play cause it's not the first time.

[mightybosstone]

Cause in small sample size we've been down this road with pathetic defenders. Allot of it is just these guys don't hustle or play defense with any sort of tenacity or refuse to work on better approaches to defense.

I'm not saying he isn't becoming a good defender cause it's possible for players to improve. I am pointing out why anyone is reserve about buying any of that on limited play cause it's not the first time.

I'd buy the sample size argument if this was the first season we've ever seen Harden play competent defense, but that simply isn't the case. He was a pretty decent defender in OKC before coming over to Houston. Sure, he was pretty awful in those first two years in a Rockets uniform, but couldn't we cut him some slack considering he was adjusting to becoming a No. 1 offensive threat for the first time?

If you take into account his defense when he was with the Thunder, I could argue that those first two seasons in Houston were the outlier, not the first half of this season.

[northsider]

I'd buy the sample size argument if this was the first season we've ever seen Harden play competent defense, but that simply isn't the case. He was a pretty decent defender in OKC before coming over to Houston. Sure, he was pretty awful in those first two years in a Rockets uniform, but couldn't we cut him some slack considering he was adjusting to becoming a No. 1 offensive threat for the first time?

If you take into account his defense when he was with the Thunder, I could argue that those first two seasons in Houston were the outlier, not the first half of this season.

I won't pass judgement but, I'd say the jury is still out in the least.

[Goose17]

I don't think you could find a sane Warriors fan who would take Klay over Harden.

I must be crazy then. I see no way Harden could improve this team, Klay is far better for us than Harden ever could be, he's the perfect fit next to Steph and this roster.

[mightybosstone]

I must be crazy then. I see no way Harden could improve this team, Klay is far better for us than Harden ever could be, he's the perfect fit next to Steph and this roster.

I'm not talking about fit or chemistry or playing for a particular team. I'm talking about as a player, period. Harden > Thompson.

[KnicksorBust]

I don't think you could find a sane Warriors fan who would take Klay over Harden.

I must be crazy then. I see no way Harden could improve this team, Klay is far better for us than Harden ever could be, he's the perfect fit next to Steph and this roster.

This might actually be true. I trust Harden to carry an offense night in and night out but Klays all around game and defense work perfectly with Curry.

My order is Harden, Klay, Butler, Derozan.

[tredigs]

I'd buy the sample size argument if this was the first season we've ever seen Harden play competent defense, but that simply isn't the case. He was a pretty decent defender in OKC before coming over to Houston. Sure, he was pretty awful in those first two years in a Rockets uniform, but couldn't we cut him some slack considering he was adjusting to becoming a No. 1 offensive threat for the first time?

If you take into account his defense when he was with the Thunder, I could argue that those first two seasons in Houston were the outlier, not the first half of this season.

I watched virtually every OKC game when Harden was with the team (maybe that's a stretch - but well over 100 games). Using that as a base for his +defense is foolish. He was good in very brief spurts, and as a whole average at best. I'd argue below average. Stats would back that up.

[mightybosstone]

I watched virtually every OKC game when Harden was with the team (maybe that's a stretch - but well over 100 games). Using that as a base for his +defense is foolish. He was good in very brief spurts, and as a whole average at best. I'd argue below average. Stats would back that up.

I never said he was good, so please don't put words in my mouth, and certainly don't call me foolish. Read what I said: competent. There's a very big difference between the terrible player he was last year and the competent defender he was at OKC and that he's been this year. Average at best? That seems like a fair description.

[CluTcH_c1tY]

PSD is the only place that would even phantom taking Thompson or Butler over Harden simply ridiculous. I've even asked Co workers and friends who they would take and all responded with Harden easily. Don't get me wrong both Thompson and Butler are great players but Harden is head and shoulders above them as a player.

[lol, please]

I see Harden as a better version of Monta Ellis: marginally better defensively, and more efficient with a slightly better shot selection.

[FlashBolt]

Harden's defense isn't superb but c'mon.. This is easily Harden. It's quite insulting that some people really hate him that much.

[mightybosstone]

I see Harden as a better version of Monta Ellis: marginally better defensively, and more efficient with a slightly better shot selection.

Wut? Ellis is not remotely the shooter, scorer or playmaker that Harden is. Harden is essentially more productive and efficient in every relevant statistical category and far more impactful and important to his basketball team. Ellis is a very good player, but he doesn't deserve to be spoken in the same breath as Harden as a basketball player.

[tredigs]

I never said he was good, so please don't put words in my mouth, and certainly don't call me foolish. Read what I said: competent. There's a very big difference between the terrible player he was last year and the competent defender he was at OKC and that he's been this year. Average at best? That seems like a fair description.

"Pretty decent" is synonymous with saying someone is better than average, or "good" in America. Apologies for the confusion.

[tredigs]

Interestingly, they rank 1-2-3 and somewhat close at the SG position in RPM and WAR. Harden rates effectively neutral in DRPM, and Jimmy actually ranks slightly negative.

[ChongInc.]

I'd take Klay because he's proto-typical. Easy to put pieces around.
But you guys are seriously underestimating Derozan. Especially his D. Butler is probably the only defender listed that is better than him. He doesn't ISO the teams best player or anything, but torontos defense is cream with him and below average without him.

[Goose17]

I see Harden as a better version of Monta Ellis: marginally better defensively, and more efficient with a slightly better shot selection.

That's a strange comparison imo. He has more in common with Brandon Roy than Monta Ellis.

[tredigs]

^While we're at it, Derozan ranks 24th among eligible Shooting Guards in RPM (effectively neutral on both ends), and 22nd in WAR.