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houstonfan
11-23-2014, 06:28 PM
Interesting read on Harden's improved defense this year. I understand why people don't like the guy. He has to be annoying to watch for opposing fans, but he is having a great year (Fg% excluded) Also, I realize its only been 13 games.

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/11/23/7271125/james-harden-defense-improvement-houston-rockets

jerellh528
11-23-2014, 06:44 PM
His d still sucks.
This would be better received in the Rockets forum

beasted86
11-23-2014, 07:09 PM
If you don't want people making threads about how terrible his defense is to the point that you complain incessantly about it and cry to mods until they start banning people.... then you can't make a thread about how he's "not terrible". It's only fair.

Either way, pointing out a player is not terrible, and has improved to "below average" is not thread-worthy.

Verbal Christ
11-23-2014, 07:30 PM
HAHA

If the thread title was Harden Sucks At Defense this place would be in a full on riot, with guys in each other's crotches, high fiving, prostate massages the whole 9 yards, but since it is about Harden playing good defense it gets the "Rockets forum, or the same salty guy from Florida mad that his thread was moved 4 months ago crying.

"His defense still sucks" ... #! in defensive win shares would tell you otherwise, ya think? LOL

beasted86
11-23-2014, 07:40 PM
HAHA

If the thread title was Harden Sucks At Defense this place would be in a full on riot, with guys in each other's crotches, high fiving, prostate massages the whole 9 yards, but since it is about Harden playing good defense it gets the "Rockets forum, or the same salty guy from Florida mad that his thread was moved 4 months ago crying.

"His defense still sucks" ... #! in defensive win shares would tell you otherwise, ya think? LOL

Those defense theory stats mean nothing. I remember Beasley being top 20 in the league in D-Rating with the HEAT in his first stint and like 25th or something like that in D Win shares.

At the end of the day, as a Rockets fan, do you want Harden defending an elite wing or guard scorer on the last play of the game? No, you would want Beverley or Ariza. Why would you want them when Harden is #1 in defensive win shares? Because clearly those stats don't tell half the story and are relatively meaningless when it comes right down to it.

tredigs
11-23-2014, 07:54 PM
Yeah, I'm not a fan of this article strictly pointing to D Rating and D Win Shares as an attempt to highlight actual defensive prowess. Carlos Boozer was regularly among the league leaders in the stat on Chi. On the Lakers, he now registers negative defensive win shares. He may be improved defensively, but these aren't the best indicators. Could explain the early fall off in his shooting, though. Actually trying on both ends of the court.

jaydubb
11-23-2014, 08:00 PM
He still sucks on D..

This year he's not doing that great scoring the ball either, VERY inefficient..

Greg.
11-23-2014, 08:17 PM
he still sucks on d..

This year he's not doing that great scoring the ball either, very inefficient..

lmao!!!

GritGrind7
11-23-2014, 08:19 PM
I havent seen much of any improvement this season. Advanced stats can be deceiving imo.

Hate to poke fun, but I'd rather use a practice cone as a defender...

MrfadeawayJB
11-23-2014, 08:23 PM
His best defense is his offense

tredigs
11-23-2014, 08:28 PM
lmao!!!

39% from the field - 30% from 3. Not exactly wildly laughable there bud. His FT prowess certainly keeps his overall scoring efficiency respectably solid though. Just not the elite status we've come to expect.

Hawkeye15
11-23-2014, 08:42 PM
HAHA

If the thread title was Harden Sucks At Defense this place would be in a full on riot, with guys in each other's crotches, high fiving, prostate massages the whole 9 yards, but since it is about Harden playing good defense it gets the "Rockets forum, or the same salty guy from Florida mad that his thread was moved 4 months ago crying.

"His defense still sucks" ... #! in defensive win shares would tell you otherwise, ya think? LOL

that means LITERALLY nothing.

I have only watched 2 games. He has been better, but that is like saying Rosie O'Donnell has been less disgusting, because she threw on makeup. Harden still chokes dick on defense.

You are becoming a pretty over defensive rube dude, you are better than that as a poster.

Hawkeye15
11-23-2014, 08:46 PM
Yeah, I'm not a fan of this article strictly pointing to D Rating and D Win Shares as an attempt to highlight actual defensive prowess. Carlos Boozer was regularly among the league leaders in the stat on Chi. On the Lakers, he now registers negative defensive win shares. He may be improved defensively, but these aren't the best indicators. Could explain the early fall off in his shooting, though. Actually trying on both ends of the court.


thought about that same thing the other day...

Greg.
11-23-2014, 08:48 PM
I don't think anyone will argue that he's elite or that you'd rather have him on the other teams best player than Beverley or Ariza, but he has actually been solid this year and his defense sealed the Dallas win. I think anyone who tries to argue he's been trash on defense hasn't even tried to watch a Rockets game.

GritGrind7
11-23-2014, 08:54 PM
I don't think anyone will argue that he's elite or that you'd rather have him on the other teams best player than Beverley or Ariza, but he has actually been solid this year and his defense sealed the Dallas win. I think anyone who tries to argue he's been trash on defense hasn't even tried to watch a Rockets game.

I've watched him lose his man as he always has off ball and on breaks. Its looked trashy imo. He's not very good on offense when he attempts to try on defense also. I liked him better on OKC. I'll keep any further analysis to myself though.

Greg.
11-23-2014, 09:00 PM
I've watched him lose his man as he always has off ball and on breaks. Its looked trashy imo. He's not very good on offense when he attempts to try on defense also. I liked him better on OKC. I'll keep any further analysis to myself though.

I really haven't noticed him losing his man this year but it's definitely possible. Either way, it happens significantly less than it did last year

GritGrind7
11-23-2014, 09:05 PM
I've watched him lose his man as he always has off ball and on breaks. Its looked trashy imo. He's not very good on offense when he attempts to try on defense also. I liked him better on OKC. I'll keep any further analysis to myself though.

I really haven't noticed him losing his man this year but it's definitely possible. Either way, it happens significantly less than it did last year

Its Possible.

jerellh528
11-23-2014, 09:15 PM
Honestly have no idea how his defensive "stats" have improved, watching him play, he's just as bad as ever

ThuglifeJ
11-23-2014, 09:27 PM
James Haren hav impravd his defendering this sizzen. Plox like him now.

-Rox fans

Verbal Christ
11-23-2014, 10:04 PM
that means LITERALLY nothing.

I have only watched 2 games. He has been better, but that is like saying Rosie O'Donnell has been less disgusting, because she threw on makeup. Harden still chokes dick on defense.

You are becoming a pretty over defensive rube dude, you are better than that as a poster.

As flawed as the win shares metric is it does contextualize what is going on. Regardless, my sarcasm didnt seem to reach its targets, but thanks for the warm and fuzzy reply. He played pretty good D last night, "chokes on dick" screams of what the rest of the hate brigade would say and like you mentioned "you are a better poster than that" and you've only watched 2 games yet your comment is pretty concrete on where you stand. Whatevs.

tredigs
11-23-2014, 10:41 PM
Honestly, I find the Rockets style of play very tough to watch, so I avoid most of their games if I can. I will take the Rox fans word that it has in fact improved.

Ariza's Better
11-23-2014, 10:47 PM
James Haren hav impravd his defendering this sizzen. Plox like him now.

-Rox fans
The American education system has failed you. Your spelling is horrible.

rhino17
11-23-2014, 11:15 PM
James Harden's defense has improved substantially, if you don't think so you are either not watching the games or are biased

He is not an all-nba defender, but he also isn't a liability on the defensive end anymore. He completely shut down Monta Ellis towards the end of that last game, including a stellar defensive play on the potential game winner

ThuglifeJ
11-23-2014, 11:16 PM
James Haren hav impravd his defendering this sizzen. Plox like him now.

-Rox fans
The American education system has failed you. Your spelling is horrible.

Your awareness of a mockery is a failure.

ThuglifeJ
11-23-2014, 11:17 PM
James Harden's defense has improved substantially, if you don't think so you are either not watching the games or are biased

He is not an all-nba defender, but he also isn't a liability on the defensive end anymore. He completely shut down Monta Ellis towards the end of that last game, including a stellar defensive play on the potential game winner

Hahahah at not a defensive liability.

Please can we get a half season defensive juggarnat video this time so we can stop seeing these biased Houston posts? Who made that video, he deserves an award for exposing that scum.

ThuglifeJ
11-23-2014, 11:33 PM
Btw can a mod move this to the rockets forum?

Thanks

Htownballa1622
11-24-2014, 12:03 AM
His defense hasn't improved that much imo. It's his effort or not falling asleep on that end. He's always had the ability to somewhat be an adequate defender. It was more about focus.

He's made big singular plays on defense many times. He guarded Dirk well down the stretch the other night. He has been our best defender against many pfs while Jones/Howard has been out.

ThuglifeJ
11-24-2014, 12:23 AM
Why is this being analyzed so much? Like baby improvements who cares. Stop this analyzing.

His D suckkss!!!

Htownballa1622
11-24-2014, 12:28 AM
Why is this being analyzed so much? Like baby improvements who cares. Stop this analyzing.

His D suckkss!!!

Why are you here? YOU clearly care. You come in to slurp anything Rockets related. I'm convinced you're an undercover fan.

ThuglifeJ
11-24-2014, 12:35 AM
Why is this being analyzed so much? Like baby improvements who cares. Stop this analyzing.

His D suckkss!!!

Why are you here? YOU clearly care. You come in to slurp anything Rockets related. I'm convinced you're an undercover fan.

I can't post on the NBA general forum? Post it in your teams forum then.

Thanks in advance.

Htownballa1622
11-24-2014, 12:40 AM
I can't post on the NBA general forum? Post it in your teams forum then.

Thanks in advance.

LOL

"Why is this being analyzed so much? Like baby improvements who cares. Stop this analyzing."

THAT^^^ was you. Sounds like you didn't want us posting in this thread.
I never said you couldn't post here.

You've posted on the second page SIX times. CLEARLY you're right where you want to troll. I mean be.

Ariza's Better
11-24-2014, 12:51 AM
Your awareness of a mockery is a failure.

I'm not mocking your spelling, I'm just saying your spelling is horrible.

0nekhmer
11-24-2014, 03:27 AM
Rockets fans are so insecure dang. As a raptors fan, as much as everyone hypes up DeRozan, us fans are probably the most critical to him. When he plays bad defense, starts chucking, we can accept and even riot with the haters that he's ****ing up.

With that being said, why would you create such a bait thread.

mightybosstone
11-24-2014, 09:51 AM
:facepalm: When I saw this thread, I immediately knew this wasn't going to go well.

Bottom line, there are two truths that need to be stated in this thread:

1. James Harden is playing much better on the defensive side of the ball. He's been key to the Rockets stifling perimeter defense with Beverley and Ariza, and I've even seen him do a good job of playing D on larger forwards in the post. Hell, the guy made the game winning block against Dallas and caused Dirk to miss another key jumper late in that game. Harden is making plays on that end of the floor that he didn't make last year and the effort is there that I haven't seen from him in Houston.

2. His defense is still mediocre at best, he benefits from playing with three top 5-10 defenders at their respective positions in Beverley, Howard and Ariza and he's still the Rockets' weak link on defense. Just because he's putting forth some defensive effort doesn't mean the guy deserves a freaking medal, and there's still the occasional mistake on that end of the floor. I especially still find myself getting frustrated on how slow he is to get back and contest long jumpers.

Can't we all just agree to both of these things and move on? Do we really need 100+ posts of "Harden sucks at defense!" and "Nuh uh! He's not that bad!"

Goose17
11-24-2014, 10:17 AM
lmao!!!

What's funny about that? He's right, minus the free throws he's playing horribly on offense, incredibly inefficient. I mean it's a low sample size so he will probably find his footing but right now it's awful, it's lower than any FG% Allen Iverson every put up, and he's arguably the biggest chucker that ever existed.

Verbal Christ
11-24-2014, 10:23 AM
What's funny about that? He's right, minus the free throws he's playing horribly on offense, incredibly inefficient. I mean it's a low sample size so he will probably find his footing but right now it's awful, it's lower than any FG% Allen Iverson every put up, and he's arguably the biggest chucker that ever existed.

So you are saying Harden is a chucker?

IndyRealist
11-24-2014, 10:40 AM
I havent seen much of any improvement this season. Advanced stats can be deceiving imo.

Hate to poke fun, but I'd rather use a practice cone as a defender...
Advanced stats are not deceiving, they just aren't widely understood so they get misinterpreted. When it comes down to it, D-rating is just counting. Where analysis comes is is saying, "yeah, but he has Trevor Ariza and Dwight Howard."

If you don't want people making threads about how terrible his defense is to the point that you complain incessantly about it and cry to mods until they start banning people.... then you can't make a thread about how he's "not terrible". It's only fair.

Either way, pointing out a player is not terrible, and has improved to "below average" is not thread-worthy.
I fully endorse this post.

Goose17
11-24-2014, 11:07 AM
So you are saying Harden is a chucker?

Nah. A chucker forces bad shots and is greedier. I'm saying Harden has been very inefficient. His FG% is comparable to some of the most infamous chuckers, which only shows how inefficient he has been.

As I said. I don't expect it to last. But for now saying he's been inefficient this season is simply cold hard fact.

ThuglifeJ
11-24-2014, 01:28 PM
Hell, the guy made the game winning block against Dallas


Harden recorded 0 blocks in the game against Dallas.



James Harden is playing much better on the defensive side of the ball. He's been key to the Rockets stifling perimeter defense with Beverley and Ariza, and I've even seen him do a good job of playing D on larger forwards in the post.

hold up.. give me a second.....




:laugh2::laugh2:

Hawkeye15
11-24-2014, 01:41 PM
As flawed as the win shares metric is it does contextualize what is going on. Regardless, my sarcasm didnt seem to reach its targets, but thanks for the warm and fuzzy reply. He played pretty good D last night, "chokes on dick" screams of what the rest of the hate brigade would say and like you mentioned "you are a better poster than that" and you've only watched 2 games yet your comment is pretty concrete on where you stand. Whatevs.

defensive win shares are very useless when measuring an individual though. Did you consider Boozer an elite interior defender when he had a Defensive Rating of 99 a few years ago? It's entirely reflective of how good the team defense is, ie, any top defensive team will have a bunch of great individual ratings.

Harden has so far to go defensively dude. He just does.

And yes, you have become so defensive about anything Rockets in the forums.

I watched 50-60 Rox games a year for the last 10 years living in Houston. 10 games in is not swaying my opinion on his defense. let him do it for a year before we even consider him an average defender, let alone not a terrible one.

CluTcH_c1tY
11-24-2014, 03:09 PM
Why is that troll still posting? Complaining that the thread should be moved to the Rockets forum yet he's posted in it like 6-8 times. Lol

Wrigheyes4MVP
11-24-2014, 03:38 PM
I know the Rockets are a hot topic these days, but I still don't think that come playoff time, they will be any better off than last year. To me, this team is still a 1st or 2nd round exit depending on the matchup they get in the first round. IMO, the problems this team had last year come playoff time... they didn't really fix. I'm glad they are playing well (not really, I'm not a hater nor a fan), but to me they are what they are.

Wrigheyes4MVP
11-24-2014, 03:43 PM
In relation to this thread about an offensive player improving there defense, I'd like to know what some of you think about Cousins defense this year. I am not all into the defensive metrics, but just watching him play I have seen a huge improvement. He still fouls way too much, but at times he has really looked like an anchor in the paint which I couldn't say about him in previous years. I think the Kings improving perimeter defense has helped him, but nonetheless he has still looked much better.

True Rocket
11-24-2014, 04:13 PM
I watched Harden all summer during FIBA and all 13 Rocket games this far. There are times where he may lose his man but he is no longer a guy who brings nothing defensively. He has turned himself to an average defender. I think he will become a even better defensive player when he isn't ask to do so much offensively.

True Rocket
11-24-2014, 04:16 PM
Btw can a mod move this to the rockets forum?

Thanks


James Haren hav impravd his defendering this sizzen. Plox like him now.

-Rox fans

At the end of the day the Rockets have 2 of the best players in the league. Who cares if other fans don't like James. That's not gonna stop him from dropping 30 points on your favorite team.

Bruno
11-24-2014, 05:23 PM
James Harden is leading the NBA in defensive win-shares.

Hawkeye15
11-24-2014, 05:27 PM
James Harden is leading the NBA in defensive win-shares.

thank you Dwight, Beverly, and Ariza..defensive win shares are a system oriented stat. Find me a Bulls player from that 62 win team that has a player who showed a poor defensive rating statistically.

GritGrind7
11-24-2014, 05:49 PM
In relation to this thread about an offensive player improving there defense, I'd like to know what some of you think about Cousins defense this year. I am not all into the defensive metrics, but just watching him play I have seen a huge improvement. He still fouls way too much, but at times he has really looked like an anchor in the paint which I couldn't say about him in previous years. I think the Kings improving perimeter defense has helped him, but nonetheless he has still looked much better.

Cousins has definitely improved on defense this season. Fun to see that improvement for a big man.

ILLUSIONIST^248
11-24-2014, 06:54 PM
Read the first sentence and lold

Verbal Christ
11-24-2014, 10:21 PM
defensive win shares are very useless when measuring an individual though. Did you consider Boozer an elite interior defender when he had a Defensive Rating of 99 a few years ago? It's entirely reflective of how good the team defense is, ie, any top defensive team will have a bunch of great individual ratings.

Harden has so far to go defensively dude. He just does.

And yes, you have become so defensive about anything Rockets in the forums.

I watched 50-60 Rox games a year for the last 10 years living in Houston. 10 games in is not swaying my opinion on his defense. let him do it for a year before we even consider him an average defender, let alone not a terrible one.

OMG you talk about being defensive and then go on the offensive reeelax dude. First of all I understand that defensive win share is a obscure 'stat' yet it can still used to quantify whether or not a player is passing the 'eye test' of course its drastically influenced by surrounding players, but using your logic you would think that Bill Russel was only a good defender because of his teammates or vice versa? Really you're not adding much to the narrative of the rest of the cool kids in here about Harden being the worse defender in history or whatever, it really doesnt bother me much, regardless of how it may come across. Good for you, you watched a bunch of Rockets basketball while being a Wolves fan whooptie doo, what does that have to do with this year?

IndyRealist
11-25-2014, 12:31 AM
OMG you talk about being defensive and then go on the offensive reeelax dude. First of all I understand that defensive win share is a obscure 'stat' yet it can still used to quantify whether or not a player is passing the 'eye test' of course its drastically influenced by surrounding players, but using your logic you would think that Bill Russel was only a good defender because of his teammates or vice versa? Really you're not adding much to the narrative of the rest of the cool kids in here about Harden being the worse defender in history or whatever, it really doesnt bother me much, regardless of how it may come across. Good for you, you watched a bunch of Rockets basketball while being a Wolves fan whooptie doo, what does that have to do with this year?

They put an entire defensive team around him for a reason. It seems to bother you an awful lot for saying it doesn't bother you much. Hawkeye and others would not have to keep harping on people using stats like defensive win shares out of context if we didn't keep getting posts like:

James Harden is leading the NBA in defensive win-shares.

tredigs
11-25-2014, 12:39 AM
lmfao -- had a great time watching Harden watch the fast break tonight: http://gfycat.com/BarrenFormalGalah

Scratch what I said about trusting Rox fans opinions on the matter if this is actually a play he is still capable of.

mightybosstone
11-25-2014, 12:46 AM
lmfao -- had a great time watching Harden watch the fast break tonight: http://gfycat.com/BarrenFormalGalah

Scratch what I said about trusting Rox fans opinions on the matter if this is actually a play he is still capable of.

One play does not justify a player's entire season or even just one game. You can find Youtube videos of a lot of players making dumb plays on defense. Harden's just an easy target because he's been terrible on that end for so long.

GritGrind7
11-25-2014, 12:50 AM
lmfao -- had a great time watching Harden watch the fast break tonight: http://gfycat.com/BarrenFormalGalah

Scratch what I said about trusting Rox fans opinions on the matter if this is actually a play he is still capable of.

Is that for real? That looks as if it was edited in.

That's disgraceful to the game.

Raps18-19 Champ
11-25-2014, 12:51 AM
Lol I just saw that 11 min video of his defense and I lolled.

tredigs
11-25-2014, 12:53 AM
One play does not justify a player's entire season or even just one game. You can find Youtube videos of a lot of players making dumb plays on defense. Harden's just an easy target because he's been terrible on that end for so long.

Uh, yes, it does. If you are capable of making that play (the most pathetic defensive effort I have seen in ~ a year or so... truthfully, maybe ever), then you are still a **** defender. Period. A good defender will showcase that effort on D exactly 0 times a year.

GritGrind7
11-25-2014, 12:55 AM
One play does not justify a player's entire season or even just one game. You can find Youtube videos of a lot of players making dumb plays on defense. Harden's just an easy target because he's been terrible on that end for so long.

Not trying to egg anyone on here, but how can one excuse that?

tredigs
11-25-2014, 12:56 AM
Not trying to egg anyone on here, but how can one excuse that?

Because he's an apologist and a try-hard homer. That's not egging him on. That's a fact.

Bruno
11-25-2014, 12:59 AM
They put an entire defensive team around him for a reason. It seems to bother you an awful lot for saying it doesn't bother you much. Hawkeye and others would not have to keep harping on people using stats like defensive win shares out of context if we didn't keep getting posts like:

you're looking to pat yourself on the back. that's why you projected your pet peeve onto my post. I posted an open ended comment on purpose.

Bruno
11-25-2014, 01:01 AM
thank you Dwight, Beverly, and Ariza..defensive win shares are a system oriented stat. Find me a Bulls player from that 62 win team that has a player who showed a poor defensive rating statistically.

Brain Scalabrine. but seriously there were only four players on that 15 man rosters with 2.0 defensive win shares or less. nine players between 2.0 defensive win shares and 3.9 defensive win shares on that team.

GritGrind7
11-25-2014, 01:08 AM
Because he's an apologist and a try-hard homer. That's not egging him on. That's a fact.

I'll stay out of this one. But I agree tredigs, no professional athlete should be capable of making that play and then call themselves a professional. I can't help but notice three of his teammates ran coast to coast past him, including the power forward. This was also the cause of the and-1 because Cannen had to run full speed to catch Carmelo, when Harden could have easily gotten back to stop play or send him to the free throw line. That doesn't win basketball games when it matters. Even if Harden, a good scorer, hits a 3, he gives up a 3 on the other end.

It is not necessary to dissect on only one singular play, but it is true if you are capable of making that play, you are at the bottom of the barrel of defenders.

mightybosstone
11-25-2014, 01:14 AM
Uh, yes, it does. If you are capable of making that play (the most pathetic defensive effort I have seen in ~ a year or so... truthfully, maybe ever), then you are still a **** defender. Period. A good defender will showcase that effort on D exactly 0 times a year.I don't believe I ever said he was a good defender. I said he's not as bad as he was last year. Please don't misinterpret my words.

mightybosstone
11-25-2014, 01:18 AM
Because he's an apologist and a try-hard homer. That's not egging him on. That's a fact.

Wow. Where did all this hostility toward me come from? Did I do something to you personally? Because it seems like you've gone out of your way to be disrespectful to me lately. Its pretty uncalled for. I would expect it from a lot of other posters, but I would have thought you better than this.

ILLUSIONIST^248
11-25-2014, 01:34 AM
lmfao -- had a great time watching Harden watch the fast break tonight: http://gfycat.com/BarrenFormalGalah

Scratch what I said about trusting Rox fans opinions on the matter if this is actually a play he is still capable of.

:laugh:

ThuglifeJ
11-25-2014, 02:55 AM
Jame's bad defense made Minnesota NEWS (THIS SEASON)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9Jlb8dOWrU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9Jlb8dOWrU

Ariza's Better
11-25-2014, 04:29 AM
Jame's bad defense made Minnesota NEWS (THIS SEASON)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9Jlb8dOWrU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9Jlb8dOWrU

Again talking about Houston, when will you just admit that you secretly love Houston.

Shlumpledink
11-25-2014, 04:48 AM
Defense is all about effort, athletic capability, with a little bit of know how and attention to detail.

Harden has no real excuse for not playing good defense, if he doesn't play well it is because he doesn't want to. No one would argue that he is athletically incapable, he certainly is strong and quick with a very long reach. He could actually be a really good defender.

Goose17
11-25-2014, 05:52 AM
Again talking about Houston, when will you just admit that you secretly love Houston.

It's a thread about James Harden. Who should he be discussing? The L.A Sparks?

Ariza's Better
11-25-2014, 06:36 AM
It's a thread about James Harden. Who should he be discussing? The L.A Sparks?
He is struggling with his secret love for houston and your not helping. I'm just trying to help.

valade16
11-25-2014, 10:45 AM
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/11/24/7278777/james-hardens-poor-defense-continues-to-be-hilarious

That's from today.

GritGrind7
11-25-2014, 11:08 AM
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/11/24/7278777/james-hardens-poor-defense-continues-to-be-hilarious

That's from today.

I liked him better in OKC.

Htownballa1622
11-25-2014, 11:50 AM
It's funny that because he has a bad rep based off of low-light video, that's all that's synonymous with his defense.

In reality, he's put much more effort on this end.

It's funny how some of you will point out a bad play instead of looking at the TOTALITY of his defensive efforts this year.

Good job guys.

Htownballa1622
11-25-2014, 11:53 AM
https://vine.co/v/O1XMQ2qhdum

This will never be high lighted because it doesn't fit yall's narrative.

valade16
11-25-2014, 12:05 PM
It's funny that because he has a bad rep based off of low-light video, that's all that's synonymous with his defense.

In reality, he's put much more effort on this end.

It's funny how some of you will point out a bad play instead of looking at the TOTALITY of his defensive efforts this year.

Good job guys.

If that's true how come there are still a multitude of videos from this season of him not even trying? Does he only put in effort some of the time?

Htownballa1622
11-25-2014, 12:15 PM
If that's true how come there are still a multitude of videos from this season of him not even trying? Does he only put in effort some of the time?

Because if you don't watch (I'm assuming you don't otherwise you wouldn't ask) you would think that's his effort all the time.

I never said he was a good defender but he's definitely put more effort on that side.

Sure he'll still have a play here or there when he is lazy but to assume his defense has not been better based off of ONE video THAT game is a lil unfair.

But hey. I saw lebron get beat backdoor the other day so I guess he always sucks on the defensive side too right?

GritGrind7
11-25-2014, 12:19 PM
It's funny that because he has a bad rep based off of low-light video, that's all that's synonymous with his defense.

In reality, he's put much more effort on this end.

It's funny how some of you will point out a bad play instead of looking at the TOTALITY of his defensive efforts this year.

Good job guys.

That isn't just a bad play man.

valade16
11-25-2014, 12:20 PM
Because if you don't watch (I'm assuming you don't otherwise you wouldn't ask) you would think that's his effort all the time.

I never said he was a good defender but he's definitely put more effort on that side.

Sure he'll still have a play here or there when he is lazy but to assume his defense has not been better based off of ONE video THAT game is a lil unfair.

But hey. I saw lebron get beat backdoor the other day so I guess he always sucks on the defensive side too right?

The implication here is that there are only a few examples of his defensive shortcomings? Are you that naive? I could post dozens of videos about his lack of defense.

I can't believe your argument is lack of volume of examples.

Htownballa1622
11-25-2014, 12:21 PM
That isn't just a bad play man.

It isn't? Looks like a play in the first quarter where a guy Is just lazy and doesn't get back on defense.

What more was it?

GritGrind7
11-25-2014, 12:22 PM
Awards and respect isn't given for improved effort, but only some of the time.

Htownballa1622
11-25-2014, 12:25 PM
The implication here is that there are only a few examples of his defensive shortcomings? Are you that naive? I could post dozens of videos about his lack of defense.

I can't believe your argument is lack of volume of examples.

No. I didn't say there weren't times he made bad plays. I clearly said he gets lost at times.

I'm saying he's put more effort to where he's actually made good plays on defense this year.

GritGrind7
11-25-2014, 12:26 PM
That isn't just a bad play man.

It isn't? Looks like a play in the first quarter where a guy Is just lazy and doesn't get back on defense.

What more was it?

How long have you been watching NBA?

Htownballa1622
11-25-2014, 12:28 PM
How long have you been watching NBA?

Relevance?

Edit: as a matter of fact...join date November of this year? Where is your old account? Or are you related to ThuglifeJ?

GritGrind7
11-25-2014, 12:38 PM
How long have you been watching NBA?

Relevance?

A bad play - committing a dumb foul, turning the ball over, getting beat off dribble.
Harden in this clip - standing as a statue while even his teammates, even his PF is able to get back on defense from the opposite basket. There's not even much a term to describe it.

If you're new to the game, I can understand to why you might think this is a common occurrence.

Htownballa1622
11-25-2014, 12:42 PM
A bad play - committing a dumb foul, turning the ball over, getting beat off dribble.
Harden in this clip - standing as a statue while even his teammates, even his PF is able to get back on defense from the opposite basket. There's not even much a term to describe it.

If you're new to the game, I can understand to why you might think this is a common occurrence.

I've acknowledged it was a bad play. He was lazy.

You said it was more than just a bad play. I asked how? You then questioned if I knew basketball. I've played basketball since I was a kid all the way through college. I've watched basketball since the early 90s as a young kid. I totally get the concept of a bad play.

That was crappy effort. No doubt about it. It was also one bad play in first quarter.

Goose17
11-25-2014, 01:28 PM
There's a big difference between a bad play and ineptitude.

rhino17
11-25-2014, 01:29 PM
If that's true how come there are still a multitude of videos from this season of him not even trying? Does he only put in effort some of the time?

There are not a multitude of videos from THIS SEASON

Watch the next 3 rockets games all the way through and then come back and tell me he still doesn't play defense. So far THIS SEASON, he is putting more effort into that end than he ever has as a Rocket. He's made a ton of defensive plays this year, even game winning defensive plays. The Rockets couldn't be hovering around #1 in every defensive statistical category with the worst defender in the nba on their roster

Verbal Christ
11-25-2014, 01:49 PM
#1 overall in Defensive Win Shares.
#8 overall in Defensive Rating. (#1 amongst Shooting Guards in front of Tony Allen)
#2 amongst SGs in total blocks
#1 amongst SGs in total steals
#2 amongst SGs in total rebounds

Hardens defensive rankings thus far (thx Cdrive from Cfans)

valade16
11-25-2014, 02:12 PM
#1 overall in Defensive Win Shares.
#8 overall in Defensive Rating. (#1 amongst Shooting Guards in front of Tony Allen)
#2 amongst SGs in total blocks
#1 amongst SGs in total steals
#2 amongst SGs in total rebounds

Hardens defensive rankings thus far (thx Cdrive from Cfans)

Team dependent statistics. Please see Carlos Boozer when on the Bulls. If the entire teams defense is good (as Houston's is) it will inflate all players stats in that regard.

As to the others, we all know steals and blocks and rebounds don't necessarily mean you are a great defender. Allen Iverson routinely led the league in steals and wasn't a great man to man defender. Kevin Love led the league in rebounds and is terrible at defense.

He may have improved, we will see when it matters later in the season, but these stats tell us very little of his actual man to man or team defensive abilities.

GritGrind7
11-25-2014, 02:14 PM
If that's true how come there are still a multitude of videos from this season of him not even trying? Does he only put in effort some of the time?

There are not a multitude of videos from THIS SEASON

Watch the next 3 rockets games all the way through and then come back and tell me he still doesn't play defense. So far THIS SEASON, he is putting more effort into that end than he ever has as a Rocket. He's made a ton of defensive plays this year, even game winning defensive plays. The Rockets couldn't be hovering around #1 in every defensive statistical category with the worst defender in the nba on their roster

A lot is inaccurate in this post.

Htownballa1622
11-25-2014, 02:29 PM
There's a big difference between a bad play and ineptitude.

It's all subjective so who tf cares?

Still gave up points on one possession in the first quarter.

Verbal Christ
11-25-2014, 03:20 PM
Team dependent statistics. Please see Carlos Boozer when on the Bulls. If the entire teams defense is good (as Houston's is) it will inflate all players stats in that regard.

As to the others, we all know steals and blocks and rebounds don't necessarily mean you are a great defender. Allen Iverson routinely led the league in steals and wasn't a great man to man defender. Kevin Love led the league in rebounds and is terrible at defense.

He may have improved, we will see when it matters later in the season, but these stats tell us very little of his actual man to man or team defensive abilities.

Youre soo right! Please tell me more! They shouldnt even keep stats right? Everyone should just play for a juice box and carrot sticks at the end of the game. Right?!

CluTcH_c1tY
11-25-2014, 03:28 PM
In the end the Rockets are vastly improved defensively so this argument leads no where.

kdspurman
11-25-2014, 03:30 PM
Youre soo right! Please tell me more! They shouldnt even keep stats right? Everyone should just play for a juice box and carrot sticks at the end of the game. Right?!

I think the point he was making was that some of those stats have to be taken with some context. Some of them are certainly useful

valade16
11-25-2014, 03:32 PM
Youre soo right! Please tell me more! They shouldnt even keep stats right? Everyone should just play for a juice box and carrot sticks at the end of the game. Right?!

They should probably educate people on what the stats mean before people attempt to use stats in a manner in which they weren't designed.

What you are doing is like saying Brandon Wright and Tyson Chandler are the best shooters in the league because they have the highest FG%'s in the league.

You are using a stat, you are just using it to prove something it absolutely can't tell you. I mean, if we're using Drtg might as well use Ortg right? In that case Brandon Wright and Tyson Chandler are the best offensive players in the league. They have the highest Ortg's after all. Isn't that how it works?

Goose17
11-25-2014, 03:32 PM
Youre soo right! Please tell me more! They shouldnt even keep stats right? Everyone should just play for a juice box and carrot sticks at the end of the game. Right?!

He's right though. The majority of defensive stats are influenced massively by the rest of the team. And a guy can have great shares even if he's a bad defender, shooting the gap constantly and getting a few steals will give you a good share. Each steal is worth like 9 points in that system, doesn't matter how many times you shoot the gap and get burned. If one of those times gets you a steal it's +9 for you.

There is no great individual stat for defense. If anything I would use on/off numbers but even then... Meh.

rhino17
11-25-2014, 03:48 PM
A lot is inaccurate in this post.

Your explanation leaves a lot to be desired

ThuglifeJ
11-25-2014, 04:48 PM
There are not a multitude of videos from THIS SEASON

Watch the next 3 rockets games all the way through and then come back and tell me he still doesn't play defense. So far THIS SEASON, he is putting more effort into that end than he ever has as a Rocket. He's made a ton of defensive plays this year, even game winning defensive plays. The Rockets couldn't be hovering around #1 in every defensive statistical category with the worst defender in the nba on their roster

Drunk again? They easily could. They're TEAM based stats now you're just reaching. Reach homer reachh.

The Mavs couldn't be hovering around #1 in offensive statistical categories with Parsons playing poorly on offense could they? O wait, they are. Or last year when they had SHAWN MARION in their starting lineup ay?
How about Golden State with Iguadola, Harison Barnes, or Spurs with Splitter. Surely they can't have good team based stats with those guys on the roster!


:layup:

ThuglifeJ
11-25-2014, 04:53 PM
They should probably educate people on what the stats mean before people attempt to use stats in a manner in which they weren't designed.

What you are doing is like saying Brandon Wright and Tyson Chandler are the best shooters in the league because they have the highest FG%'s in the league.

You are using a stat, you are just using it to prove something it absolutely can't tell you. I mean, if we're using Drtg might as well use Ortg right? In that case Brandon Wright and Tyson Chandler are the best offensive players in the league. They have the highest Ortg's after all. Isn't that how it works?

This.

Rox fans get their logic torched again

:burn:

PurpleLynch
11-25-2014, 06:08 PM
Imo Harden is still a below average/almost average defender and it baffles me,since he has all the tools to be more than an average defender. This year he's putting more concentration and hustle in his defense,I'm right with that,but he has to work his *** off to improve that defense.
Is he just lazy?Or he lacks that particular kind of bball's IQ needed to be a good defender? I don't know,but with that speed and height he should be dominant man to man on D. He has a good interception ability though.

Sactown
11-25-2014, 07:04 PM
I understand why people post about James Harden...

They hate that he destroys their team by getting to the line; thus they incoherently babble about his flopping and lacking the ability to guard my grandmother....

What I don't understand is why Rockets fans come in here and validate their arguments by responding.. honestly who cares if he flops, it gets him to the line and helps the team, and who cares if he can't guard my grandmother, she's at home in a rocking chair, and even if she did hop on the court they can have Trevor Ariza guard her... The guy who they paid to defend wing players and hit threes.... He's on a top 10 defensive team who is a shoe in for the playoffs .. just ignore them

MTar786
11-25-2014, 08:33 PM
harden is a horrible defender

Verbal Christ
11-25-2014, 08:34 PM
They should probably educate people on what the stats mean before people attempt to use stats in a manner in which they weren't designed.

What you are doing is like saying Brandon Wright and Tyson Chandler are the best shooters in the league because they have the highest FG%'s in the league.

You are using a stat, you are just using it to prove something it absolutely can't tell you. I mean, if we're using Drtg might as well use Ortg right? In that case Brandon Wright and Tyson Chandler are the best offensive players in the league. They have the highest Ortg's after all. Isn't that how it works?

Do Wright and Chandler lead their respective positions in anything other than FG% ? Top 3? I'm too lazy to do the legwork and Im not dishing out 10K for the synergy stuff. Vantage is good, but I've found it to be almost too much informations. Statistics are basically reinforcing what is happening on the court. The story around here is that Harden is an awful player because he doesnt play lock down defense on every single play Right? So what to make with all the data? Just dismiss it as you are doing? Amongst his peers at his position Harden is holding his own in every single defensive statistic, that is fact. OFF/DEF rating is most certainly impacted by every other player on the 5 that is running the floor as I have already stated before. Since you are in an educational mood why not enlighten me on 'how stats are designed and interpreted' I just find it funny how the majority just shrug off any kind of data that would support the claim and wait for another video of a single play to somehow validate their own agenda and subjective charade. That hard to say Harden is improving on defense, or dare I say is almost a plus player on that end? LOL

How many players are first team both ways by the way? Yet this is the standard that Harden is held to, why? Who the hell knows.

Good stuff.

lamzoka
11-25-2014, 08:43 PM
Speaking of James Harden's defense here is a must see video from last nite's game vs the knicks.

http://dimemag.com/2014/11/gif-james-harden-barely-pretends-play-transition-defense-knicks/

ThuglifeJ
11-25-2014, 10:31 PM
Speaking of James Harden's defense here is a must see video from last nite's game vs the knicks.

http://dimemag.com/2014/11/gif-james-harden-barely-pretends-play-transition-defense-knicks/

That's awwffuull!! What a joke

goku
11-25-2014, 11:05 PM
He still sucks on D..

This year he's not doing that great scoring the ball either, VERY inefficient..

yea the season is over harden shooting % will be the same over an 82 game schedule it is nearly impossible for him to improve his shooting percentage

Sandman
11-25-2014, 11:06 PM
Congratulations James, you received your yellow belt?

goku
11-25-2014, 11:09 PM
see I understand harden will fall asleep on Defense but are we gonna act like during an 82 game schedule he the only player to do so im sure with 82 games of tape u can make a 11-12 minute video about other players not to mention when he does play defense no one notices it but one slip up in a game

rocketfuel
11-25-2014, 11:13 PM
You would think a guy as athletic as Harden would be a lockdown defender, but go figure. Maybe if he had someone like Pops early in his career, maybe his mentality might be different.

ghettosean
11-26-2014, 12:07 AM
Congratulations James, you received your yellow belt?

This is solid... lol

tredigs
11-26-2014, 07:11 AM
https://vine.co/v/O1XMQ2qhdum

This will never be high lighted because it doesn't fit yall's narrative.

Lmfao -- Impressive! He stayed in front of his man on the most predictable shot in NBA history, nice! Nice vine. Much more relevant than the one I posted.

Htownballa1622
11-26-2014, 08:40 AM
Lmfao -- Impressive! He stayed in front of his man on the most predictable shot in NBA history, nice! Nice vine. Much more relevant than the one I posted.

Listen, I get that you naturally have a dislike for Harden being a Gsw fan and all, but that doesn't change the fact that it was a good defensive play in the final seconds in a game.

tredigs
11-26-2014, 10:35 AM
Listen, I get that you naturally have a dislike for Harden being a Gsw fan and all, but that doesn't change the fact that it was a good defensive play in the final seconds in a game.

Contrary to PSD-centric logic, there is no beef between the Warriors and Rox on a real level. At all. I find his D... interesting, and their fans on here hilariously arrogant defensive about the team, that's about it.

Concerning that play, it was about as standard of defense as you can find. He managed not to fall over and contend a shot. +1.

Htownballa1622
11-26-2014, 11:31 AM
Contrary to PSD-centric logic, there is no beef between the Warriors and Rox on a real level. At all. I find his D... interesting, and their fans on here hilariously arrogant defensive about the team, that's about it.

Concerning that play, it was about as standard of defense as you can find. He managed not to fall over and contend a shot. +1.

:eyebrow:

The fans being defensive started when ppl like TUGlife started the Rox hate circle jerk.
So it's only natural that ppl would defend the team and it's players.

Only thing is , no one here is claiming James is some all world defender. Just claiming that his effort has been better and he's not totally inept defensively in contrast to last year would suggest.

tredigs
11-26-2014, 12:13 PM
:eyebrow:

The fans being defensive started when ppl like TUGlife started the Rox hate circle jerk.
So it's only natural that ppl would defend the team and it's players.

Only thing is , no one here is claiming James is some all world defender. Just claiming that his effort has been better and he's not totally inept defensively in contrast to last year would suggest.

k. http://gfycat.com/BarrenFormalGalah

Htownballa1622
11-26-2014, 12:27 PM
k. http://gfycat.com/BarrenFormalGalah

Again, congratulations on showing one video of lazy defense and implying that THAT should be how we look at his defensive effort in TOTALITY this year.

From now on, I will just pull one YouTube to use as evidence when talking about an entire season because by your logic, that's acceptable. :rolleyes:

tredigs
11-26-2014, 12:40 PM
Again, congratulations on showing one video of lazy defense and implying that THAT should be how we look at his defensive effort in TOTALITY this year.

From now on, I will just pull one YouTube to use as evidence when talking about an entire season because by your logic, that's acceptable. :rolleyes:

Thank you Ht -- I accept your congratulations, and extend it to one James Harden and his ability to play defense in the NBA while simultaneously taking a nap.

valade16
11-26-2014, 12:45 PM
Again, congratulations on showing one video of lazy defense and implying that THAT should be how we look at his defensive effort in TOTALITY this year.

From now on, I will just pull one YouTube to use as evidence when talking about an entire season because by your logic, that's acceptable. :rolleyes:

You've pulled one video as evidence of his increased defensive focus so why can't he use one video to refute that?

I'd also point out that you have only Rockets fans saying his defense is improved and everyone else saying it still sucks. Not that such an argument is definitive proof but it is telling that the only source defending him is likely the most biased.

Htownballa1622
11-26-2014, 12:59 PM
You've pulled one video as evidence of his increased defensive focus so why can't he use one video to refute that?

I'd also point out that you have only Rockets fans saying his defense is improved and everyone else saying it still sucks. Not that such an argument is definitive proof but it is telling that the only source defending him is likely the most biased.

I showed one video because that was with the game on the line and you couldn't pull a video as such last year.

You might scroll up and see that I never claimed his defense was all world. I simply said he's displayed more effort and that one video can be used as a point.

He posted ONE video and implied that as his point over an ENTIRE season. I never used my one video to say he ALWAYS plays tough, instead I said he has shown more effort which is clear to see.

Also, of course I'd take the group that actually has watched the entirety of the Rockets games vs those that claim to have seen a couple of games.

Not being a homer here but I don't think you'll find someone that has watched more rockets games than....well...ROCKETS FANS.

Htownballa1622
11-26-2014, 01:03 PM
Thank you Ht -- I accept your congratulations, and extend it to one James Harden and his ability to play defense in the NBA while simultaneously taking a nap.

And this my fellow psd posters is what happens when hate turns usually good posters into psd troll types. See ppl in sig.

rocket
11-26-2014, 01:07 PM
harden can't defend for **** he's a lazy *****

Hawkeye15
11-26-2014, 01:10 PM
You've pulled one video as evidence of his increased defensive focus so why can't he use one video to refute that?

I'd also point out that you have only Rockets fans saying his defense is improved and everyone else saying it still sucks. Not that such an argument is definitive proof but it is telling that the only source defending him is likely the most biased.

very true, but in their defense, they do watch him every night, and we all know defensive reputation is hard to shake. Ask Dirk...

I have only watched them 2 times this year, I didn't notice Harden being an open wound on the defensive end like years past. In most cases, if you don't notice him on defense, that is a good thing haha. But he will need to hold it up over a long period of time for his reputation to start changing.

tredigs
11-26-2014, 01:13 PM
And this my fellow psd posters is what happens when hate turns usually good posters into psd troll types. See ppl in sig.

I'm offended by that grouping. Well played.

Listen, Harden's obviously doing fine on D. He's on a team that is 11-3 despite displaying one of the worst offenses in the NBA (seriously, wtf happened to them on that end?). You can't pull that off without a cohesive defensive unit.

You have to admit that the clip I showed was one of the more interesting displays of defensive pressure in the past few years, though. I literally can't recall a more pathetic display in recent memory, and being that it occurred right after the posting of this thread, fairly relevant.

ILLUSIONIST^248
11-26-2014, 01:18 PM
Come on rocket fans, harden absolutely blows on defense. There's no way around it.

Htownballa1622
11-26-2014, 01:21 PM
I'm offended by that grouping. Well played.

Listen, Harden's obviously doing fine on D. He's on a team that is 11-3 despite displaying one of the worst offenses in the NBA (seriously, wtf happened to them on that end?). You can't pull that off without a cohesive defensive unit.

You have to admit that the clip I showed was one of the more interesting displays of defensive pressure in the past few years, though. I literally can't recall a more pathetic display in recent memory, and being that it occurred right after the posting of this thread, fairly relevant.

Lol sorry.

I agree our offense has been bad. Our defense has improved so i hope they put it together by April.

And I agree. That effort was bs. I literally screamed , "get back on defense you ******* bum" as it happened live.

But the final 4 mins of the game totally made it a distant memory until it was brought back up.

James harden is lazy and at times he is GOD AWFUL on defense. All I'm saying is that we (rox fans) have collectively noticed more effort over the entirety of the season.

:)

Goose17
11-26-2014, 07:08 PM
Thank you Ht -- I accept your congratulations, and extend it to one James Harden and his ability to play defense in the NBA while simultaneously taking a nap.

:laugh:

rhino17
11-26-2014, 07:54 PM
I'd also point out that you have only Rockets fans saying his defense is improved and everyone else saying it still sucks. Not that such an argument is definitive proof but it is telling that the only source defending him is likely the most biased.

The people saying he has improved his defense had watched him play for 14 games this season

the people saying otherwise have watched maybe 1 in passing

ThuglifeJ
11-26-2014, 08:39 PM
I'd also point out that you have only Rockets fans saying his defense is improved and everyone else saying it still sucks. Not that such an argument is definitive proof but it is telling that the only source defending him is likely the most biased.

The people saying he has improved his defense had watched him play for 14 games this season

the people saying otherwise have watched maybe 1 in passing

How do you know exactly how many games everyone else has watched here, that's an arrogant statement. No one watches other teams play? Thats new to me. Ppl watch plenty of other teams games. Its called hardcore nba fans, its called leaguepass, its called watching you're fantasy team picks, its called theyre playing your team, its called you're bored..

ThuglifeJ
11-26-2014, 08:43 PM
Maybe his D is just that awful and no one cares that he tries more now (if he even does- probably not- hence footage). That's not a big deal to anyone, they're pro athletes they're expected to give effort for the money they make.

They don't give awards for trying harder on defense to improve to 'slightly above worst defender of all time'. Who freakin cares, he still blows on D and STILL has braindead zombie moments. Move along now.

ILLUSIONIST^248
11-26-2014, 10:02 PM
Maybe his D is just that awful and no one cares that he tries more now (if he even does- probably not- hence footage). That's not a big deal to anyone, they're pro athletes they're expected to give effort for the money they make.

They don't give awards for trying harder on defense to improve to 'slightly above worst defender of all time'. Who freakin cares, he still blows on D and STILL has braindead zombie moments. Move along now.
Slightly above the worse of all time lol. True

rhino17
11-26-2014, 11:01 PM
I'm reminded of a poster here from year ago, some of the older posters here probably remember him.....

He would constantly create threads and ruin other threads to debate whether or not tmac was a point forward, he despised the Rockets but would apparently never shut up about them which irritated everybody

.....I think he has found a new calling with James Harden's defense, someone who apparently has so little going on in his life that he watches James Harden defensive videos like they are porn

mightybosstone
11-26-2014, 11:36 PM
very true, but in their defense, they do watch him every night, and we all know defensive reputation is hard to shake. Ask Dirk...

I have only watched them 2 times this year, I didn't notice Harden being an open wound on the defensive end like years past. In most cases, if you don't notice him on defense, that is a good thing haha. But he will need to hold it up over a long period of time for his reputation to start changing.

This. Exactly this. And I don't think any Rockets fan would disagree with this post.

astrosmaniac
11-27-2014, 12:05 AM
I'm offended by that grouping. Well played.

Listen, Harden's obviously doing fine on D. He's on a team that is 11-3 despite displaying one of the worst offenses in the NBA (seriously, wtf happened to them on that end?). You can't pull that off without a cohesive defensive unit.

You have to admit that the clip I showed was one of the more interesting displays of defensive pressure in the past few years, though. I literally can't recall a more pathetic display in recent memory, and being that it occurred right after the posting of this thread, fairly relevant.
What happened to the offense is that 3 of the starters have missed a total of 27 (I think) games. Jones out 12, Beverly out 9, Dwight out six. Aside from just their individual offensive abilities, having used the most starting lineups in the league doesn't help offensive consistency really.

As far as the whole video thing, let's be honest: It's easier to notice obvious breakdowns than solid man D and they make for fairly boring high light clips. How many people are going to watch a 10 minute high light of plays like harden staying it front of his man and forcing a kick out so the offense has to reset? Hell I wouldn't, because it's boring an repetitive. It's the same reason people think lots of blocks an steals automatically = good: because they are exciting plays so you see a lot of them in highlights.

Htownballa1622
11-27-2014, 12:45 AM
https://vine.co/v/O1Lnj2FlFLi

improved effort?

:faint::dance2:

EDIT:https://vine.co/v/Ona0BKaFOTP

Htownballa1622
11-27-2014, 01:09 AM
http://instagram.com/p/v46CSeCENI/

Just saying. I know it's not man to man individual defense but it's the lil things that are stepping stones to get better.

Crackadalic
11-27-2014, 02:05 AM
He has his ups and downs. One minute he is playing good D. The next he is watching a fastbreak and doesn't even run back

tredigs
11-27-2014, 03:03 AM
http://instagram.com/p/v46CSeCENI/

Just saying. I know it's not man to man individual defense but it's the lil things that are stepping stones to get better.

Lmao - way to get there! Left his man wide open for the highest% 3 in the game. Good thing, too. 10-31 shooting tonight? Yikes.

ThuglifeJ
11-27-2014, 03:32 AM
http://instagram.com/p/v46CSeCENI/

Just saying. I know it's not man to man individual defense but it's the lil things that are stepping stones to get better.

Come. On. man. This is the definition of jumping the passing lanes for steals. Ill give him credit for actually going up to get the steal that required good timing but he left his man wide open in the corner there. If he was thinking "okay it's macklemore he's too stupid and weak to get a cross court pass over there" then he bested that play. But more than likely he wasn't even considering who had the ball or where his guy was.

This has Iverson esque written all over it.

SF8
11-27-2014, 06:56 AM
that means LITERALLY nothing.

I have only watched 2 games. He has been better, but that is like saying Rosie O'Donnell has been less disgusting, because she threw on makeup. Harden still chokes dick on defense.

You are becoming a pretty over defensive rube dude, you are better than that as a poster.
Ha that's an understatement. Top 20 high school basketball players in the nation would light up Harden on that end of the court. That's how bad he still is.

mightybosstone
11-27-2014, 12:00 PM
He has his ups and downs. One minute he is playing good D. The next he is watching a fastbreak and doesn't even run back
This explains Harden's defense perfectly. When he really focuses on locking down a guy and staying in front of his man, he's capable of doing it. He doesn't have great lateral quickness, but he can outmuscle most wings and even hold his own in the post against some 4s. He also is great at reading the passing lanes and causing turnovers.

HOWEVER, he focuses too much effort on trying to get the turnover and often jumps to get the steal at the expense of his man getting a wide open path to the basket. His transition defense is also non-existent at times. He pretty much just swipes at the opposing player hoping to get the steal or the foul, and he often either gives the driving player a wide open layup or an and-one. (He gave up an and-one last night that made me want to put my fist through my laptop.) He also has a tendency to watch the ball and let his man get too open on the perimeter so that by the time the ball gets to his man, it's too late to get back to contest the shot. He does all of these things still, although I think he's cut down a bit on most of them this year, especially the ball watching.

So, yeah. There is a lot of bad things to say about how James plays defense, but he does a few things well. And he's gotten to the point this season where I legitimately am seeing him do more of the good than the bad. Not that the good necessarily justifies the bad. But he's definitely playing better defense this year.

If people want to disagree with that, that's fine. But as someone who has watched all but one Rockets game this season, I promise I'm not making this **** up.

Htownballa1622
11-27-2014, 12:07 PM
Lmao - way to get there! Left his man wide open for the highest% 3 in the game. Good thing, too. 10-31 shooting tonight? Yikes.
He did. And yes, it was a gamble but it worked out. The point I was trying to make is AGAIN…the effort instead of being left flat footed.

Come. On. man. This is the definition of jumping the passing lanes for steals. Ill give him credit for actually going up to get the steal that required good timing but he left his man wide open in the corner there. If he was thinking "okay it's macklemore he's too stupid and weak to get a cross court pass over there" then he bested that play. But more than likely he wasn't even considering who had the ball or where his guy was.

This has Iverson esque written all over it.

I agree with you but I'm just talking about effort of giving a **** on D.

mightybosstone
11-27-2014, 12:12 PM
Ha that's an understatement. Top 20 high school basketball players in the nation would light up Harden on that end of the court. That's how bad he still is.

This just isn't true. I get that you're trying to make a joke, but that's not an accurate statement.

Goose17
11-27-2014, 01:42 PM
He did. And yes, it was a gamble but it worked out. The point I was trying to make is AGAIN…the effort instead of being left flat footed.


But it's a terrible decision defensively. It's not good defense.

And it only proves what was being said earlier as true. You don't need to be a good defensive player to have good defensive numbers. Ellis has made a living on shooting the gap and gambling defensively. He racks up the steals, people see that number and think he's improved (it also helps the "advanced" defensive stats". Truth is without a solid defensive big inside waiting to clean up his mess he looks awful defensively.

Goose17
11-27-2014, 01:44 PM
If the argument is that Harden is TRYING to be a good defender, I would agree with that, from the few games I've watched.

But the argument that he is now average or above average defensively simply isn't true. His effort may have improved but he's still a bad defender.

Htownballa1622
11-27-2014, 01:49 PM
If the argument is that Harden is TRYING to be a good defender, I would agree with that, from the few games I've watched.

But the argument that he is now average or above average defensively simply isn't true. His effort may have improved but he's still a bad defender.

That is MY argument. He's putting more effort. I've said that.

He still has breakdowns but he's also made good plays.

He gets the steal then it works out. If he didn't and got burned then yea it is bad defense.

ILLUSIONIST^248
11-27-2014, 02:39 PM
If the argument is that Harden is TRYING to be a good defender, I would agree with that, from the few games I've watched.

But the argument that he is now average or above average defensively simply isn't true. His effort may have improved but he's still a bad defender.

This sums it up rather nicely, you can close the thread now.

Verbal Christ
11-27-2014, 04:03 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSGtPdsxJE8

tredigs
11-27-2014, 04:09 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSGtPdsxJE8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBqtfuZP6Dg

Goose17
11-27-2014, 04:13 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBqtfuZP6Dg

:laugh:

Verbal Christ
11-27-2014, 04:16 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBqtfuZP6Dg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP7Nlk4uoAY 1:17

Htownballa1622
11-27-2014, 04:16 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBqtfuZP6Dg


That was Ariza's guy hence why James was mad and clapped his hands but poor effort nonetheless to not even try to rotate.

Relevance though? Lol.

Verbal Christ
11-27-2014, 04:21 PM
HOw is the win/share argument vs usage going when 2 of the teams best defenders have been injured for extended periods of time? I guess Ariza is the best defender ever.

Verbal Christ
11-27-2014, 04:25 PM
https://imageshack.com/a/img661/7932/Ty39AG.gif
https://imageshack.com/a/img908/994/WRYjHZ.gif
https://imageshack.com/a/img912/3267/bLBf7x.gif
https://imageshack.com/a/img673/2687/NVp6cj.gif
https://imageshack.com/a/img913/1677/6s3eDy.gif

Htownballa1622
11-27-2014, 05:00 PM
https://imageshack.com/a/img661/7932/Ty39AG.gif
https://imageshack.com/a/img908/994/WRYjHZ.gif
https://imageshack.com/a/img912/3267/bLBf7x.gif
https://imageshack.com/a/img673/2687/NVp6cj.gif
https://imageshack.com/a/img913/1677/6s3eDy.gif
:up::hi5::rock::bow:

SouthSideRookie
11-27-2014, 05:46 PM
:laugh:

Who's that in the vid getting blown by like he's not even there and letting a backup point guard get a career high on him?

http://youtu.be/CMU6TQDIpSA



That was Ariza's guy hence why James was mad and clapped his hands but poor effort nonetheless to not even try to rotate.

Relevance though? Lol.

People can keep saying Harden is a terrible defender all they want but that's just not the case anymore. Anyone who has seen the games this season would notice right away, that's a fact not an opinion. He's actually made big plays on BOTH ends in key stretches of several games thus far. Im just glad that he's focused on that end this season, hopefully he keeps it up.

Saddletramp
11-27-2014, 05:52 PM
Move along now.

You need to take your own advice, chucko.

SF8
11-27-2014, 08:41 PM
This just isn't true. I get that you're trying to make a joke, but that's not an accurate statement.

Just messing around man, of course its not accurate, he's a professional basketball player he would out muscle guys just by strength.

goingfor28
11-28-2014, 03:18 AM
This thread :laugh2: there is no excuse for how bad Harden is defensively. I don't even know if he is a bad defender bc I've never seen him put in any effort. He should start. On every play.

GritGrind7
11-28-2014, 03:37 AM
He played a little defense in OKC. I liked him better there, a better fit for him.

Sactown
11-28-2014, 02:02 PM
I do think Harden does conserve energy on the defensive end of the ball because he's essentially responsible for every offensive possession whether it be scoring or creating for others.. he wouldn't be the first player to do this not the last .. it's Impossible to sustain such a high load on offense and then be a lock down defender..

Not sure why we care so much about his defense anyways

Verbal Christ
11-28-2014, 07:38 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XlYhj6p_sY

Raps18-19 Champ
12-05-2014, 04:24 PM
:laugh2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nis-uV5koww

houstonfan
12-05-2014, 04:50 PM
:laugh2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nis-uV5koww

lmao this is awesome. Even Shaq does say his defense has improved though! Its easy to find one or two plays a game where a guy looks dumb, you could do it for just about any player in the league. Gotta love Shaqtin a fool though.

Verbal Christ
12-05-2014, 09:05 PM
http://zippy.gfycat.com/LittleSecondhandApatosaur.webm

this is one is actually pretty funny: http://d111vui60acwyt.cloudfront.net/product_photos/26133087/24_20Harden_201000_original.jpg

Htownballa1622
12-08-2014, 11:14 AM
I know Harden isn't some all world defender but I have argued that he's put much more effort on that side of the ball.

I saw this video of "highlights" rather than the "lowlight" video last year.(we all know Harden isn't the "hardest" defender so chill before the lame commenting on the name)

James Harden - The Hardest Defender: http://youtu.be/6oP4eXW9y7g

SouthSideRookie
12-08-2014, 07:58 PM
I know Harden isn't some all world defender but I have argued that he's put much more effort on that side of the ball.

I saw this video of "highlights" rather than the "lowlight" video last year.(we all know Harden isn't the "hardest" defender so chill before the lame commenting on the name)

James Harden - The Hardest Defender: http://youtu.be/6oP4eXW9y7g

This video isn't long enough, he's consistently been playing that type of defense this season so far.

Htownballa1622
12-08-2014, 08:31 PM
This video isn't long enough, he's consistently been playing that type of defense this season so far.

I feel ya but i'm assuming they'll have more later since this is only 20 games worth.

alexander_37
12-08-2014, 09:55 PM
Harden plays good defense and not a peep. :laugh: the nba general forum is full of bandwagoners and ignorant people who don't actually watch basketball.

Also that clip of Harden denying Griffin in the post THREE times in one play then getting the steal is ****ing priceless.

Htownballa1622
12-08-2014, 10:02 PM
I like the defense on iggys euro lmao.

alexander_37
12-08-2014, 10:04 PM
I like the defense on iggys euro lmao.

10 minute ( the intro is 1 minute ) highlight pack of 18 games of insane defense <<<< 11 minute video of bad defense for a whole season.

NBA forum logic

SportsFanatic10
12-09-2014, 12:04 AM
Harden plays good defense and not a peep. :laugh: the nba general forum is full of bandwagoners and ignorant people who don't actually watch basketball.

Also that clip of Harden denying Griffin in the post THREE times in one play then getting the steal is ****ing priceless.

well it is kinda funny that it's rockets fans keeping this thread alive. all the complaining about people commenting in this thread and now complaining when they have left it alone. the thread has pretty much run its course. its pretty obvious that harden has to play solid defense for an extended period before he can shake his bad defensive rep which was well earned.

harden has to learn if he wants to be taken seriously as a defender he has to avoid plays like that fast break play. yes everyone has bad plays but i honestly can't recall one that bad from anyone ever. no one goes all out every play, but that little effort is going to stick in peoples minds. yes he's improved on that end, and of course he does and will take plays off like anyone else, but it just can't be THAT bad if he wants to change the fans perception.

Tony_Starks
12-09-2014, 12:15 AM
The play where Harden took a half hearted swipe at the player the other night on D was incredibly hilarious. He didnt even bother to slide his feet! Shaq and the crew had jokes, everybody watching ( outside of Houston) had jokes. The next time someone tells me Harden is the best SG in the game I'm laughing in their misguided face....

Htownballa1622
12-09-2014, 12:36 AM
10 minute ( the intro is 1 minute ) highlight pack of 18 games of insane defense <<<< 11 minute video of bad defense for a whole season.

NBA forum logic

All good. Narrative has been set. He just has to keep it up and do it in playoffs.

CluTcH_c1tY
12-09-2014, 12:57 AM
Who's the best SG in the league then? Go ahead and laugh at my face. Harden is the best SG.

ThuglifeJ
12-09-2014, 01:21 AM
Harden plays good defense and not a peep. :laugh: the nba general forum is full of bandwagoners and ignorant people who don't actually watch basketball.

Also that clip of Harden denying Griffin in the post THREE times in one play then getting the steal is ****ing priceless.

You're being ridiculous. Harden doesnt need rewards for NOT playing piss poor defense. Should everyone be held to that standard?
Seriously what do you expect here? If hes improved good for him he should be as a professional athlete. Be happy for your team, move on.

ThuglifeJ
12-09-2014, 01:26 AM
Harden plays good defense and not a peep. :laugh: the nba general forum is full of bandwagoners and ignorant people who don't actually watch basketball.

Also that clip of Harden denying Griffin in the post THREE times in one play then getting the steal is ****ing priceless.

well it is kinda funny that it's rockets fans keeping this thread alive. all the complaining about people commenting in this thread and now complaining when they have left it alone. the thread has pretty much run its course. its pretty obvious that harden has to play solid defense for an extended period before he can shake his bad defensive rep which was well earned.

harden has to learn if he wants to be taken seriously as a defender he has to avoid plays like that fast break play. yes everyone has bad plays but i honestly can't recall one that bad from anyone ever. no one goes all out every play, but that little effort is going to stick in peoples minds. yes he's improved on that end, and of course he does and will take plays off like anyone else, but it just can't be THAT bad if he wants to change the fans perception.

Well said. This is fair, spot on, and should be read everyday by said Houston fans so they stop acting so victimized all the time.

His reputation is ruined, it takes time to fix that. Big mishaps on D will be highlighted. You know that. He knows that. I know that.

SouthSideRookie
12-09-2014, 01:53 AM
Who's the best SG in the league then? Go ahead and laugh at my face. Harden is the best SG.

Imagine Klay or Butler as the go to in our lineup with all the injuries lol. Yeah we'd be a lottery team.

Harden was the best even when he played no defense.


And to that clown that says we should read that post, why should we, we get enough stupidity from you, we don't need to read more clueless posts and people talking out of their a s s.

PatsSoxKnicks
12-10-2014, 03:14 AM
Probably a bit over the head of some of the posters in this forum but for the Rockets fans- you guys should find this interesting: http://www.vantagesports.com/#story/VIY6qSkAAC93XrOz/james-harden-is-truly-an-impactful-two-way-player

alexander_37
12-10-2014, 05:45 PM
Probably a bit over the head of some of the posters in this forum but for the Rockets fans- you guys should find this interesting: http://www.vantagesports.com/#story/VIY6qSkAAC93XrOz/james-harden-is-truly-an-impactful-two-way-player

All you need to see

https://prismic-io.s3.amazonaws.com/vantagesportscontributor/b7cec4853fdb7cdfe2b50724af1cc4076dcfc33a_harden-defense.png

michael jordan
12-10-2014, 09:36 PM
can rockets beat the spurs?:confused:

SouthSideRookie
12-11-2014, 10:05 AM
The play where Harden took a half hearted swipe at the player the other night on D was incredibly hilarious. He didnt even bother to slide his feet! Shaq and the crew had jokes, everybody watching ( outside of Houston) had jokes. The next time someone tells me Harden is the best SG in the game I'm laughing in their misguided face....

Harden is not only by far the best 2 in the game, he's a top 3-5 player in the entire league.


You should stop posting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM-Eo9_d8Fw

tredigs
12-11-2014, 10:12 AM
can rockets beat the spurs?:confused:

lol -- nobody took the MJ screen name until 2014? Impressive.


All you need to see

https://prismic-io.s3.amazonaws.com/vantagesportscontributor/b7cec4853fdb7cdfe2b50724af1cc4076dcfc33a_harden-defense.png

Nice -- do you know where these stats came from? I'd like to check them out for some guys.

PatsSoxKnicks
12-12-2014, 06:35 AM
Nice -- do you know where these stats came from? I'd like to check them out for some guys.

From this article: http://www.vantagesports.com/#story/VIY6qSkAAC93XrOz/james-harden-is-truly-an-impactful-two-way-player

They were published in that article I linked to above. Not public stats. Need to either be a writer there or pay tons and tons and tons of money for their services (more then most here can afford) or work in the NBA for a team. If you really want to find out more, you can PM me.

tredigs
12-12-2014, 11:48 AM
From this article: http://www.vantagesports.com/#story/VIY6qSkAAC93XrOz/james-harden-is-truly-an-impactful-two-way-player

They were published in that article I linked to above. Not public stats. Need to either be a writer there or pay tons and tons and tons of money for their services (more then most here can afford) or work in the NBA for a team. If you really want to find out more, you can PM me.

Haha yup I did track it back and realized it was that article and the rest would be locked in. Appreciate that though!

Chronz
12-12-2014, 11:56 AM
EASILY the best SG in the league. Bar none.