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beau_boy04
11-10-2014, 04:34 PM
What could have been had Michael Jordan played his career with Charles Barkley instead of Scottie Pippen. Still 6 titles or more? maybe less? We all knew Scottie Pippen was the point forward of that team and he being out of the picture, that would have make MJ guard the best opposing team guard instead of switching duties with Pip. Anyhow, we all know Charles is one of four players ever in history to have compiled 20,000 points, 10,000 rebounds and 4000 assists.

Would Mj still averaged 30ppg throughout his career?
How would they coexist in the same team? we all know how good friends they are
How many championship they would've won together?

Miltstar
11-10-2014, 04:36 PM
No one's gonna be able to give you a factual answer... too many what ifs

KnicksorBust
11-10-2014, 04:54 PM
6 or 7 titles.

abe_froman
11-10-2014, 05:00 PM
i'll say they win less titles.barkley fell off big in '98 and while he himself is an upgrade over pip,the team itself suffers a downgrade in talent and fit,as there is no big 3's(mj,pip,grant for the first 3,mj/pip/rodman for the 2nd).you would need someone to replace the impact of grant/rodman somewhere else,and the fit wouldnt mesh as well as what was built around mj

alexander_37
11-10-2014, 06:17 PM
That is kind of interesting. Barkley was probably the better player but Pip was the glue guy on that team.

Barkley is the better individual player but Pippen makes them a better team. If that makes sense, in terms of championships they probably still win at least 4 probably 5-6.

PurpleJesus
11-10-2014, 06:24 PM
well, if you take Pippen out and put Barkley in, what happens to Dennis Rodman? Rodman likely never joins that team because the PF spot is already locked down. Maybe they go after a wing in free agency though, to fill the void that would be left without Pippen.

PurpleJesus
11-10-2014, 06:29 PM
I think since Jordan and Barkley were selected in the same drafts, and selected close to each other, the better question would be...

what if Barkley were drafted to the Bulls instead of Jordan, and the Bulls still landed Scottie a few years later?

They still have to win some championships with that duo, right?

JordansBulls
11-10-2014, 06:52 PM
They win more as Barkley by 1988 was a superstar. That gives Chicago another 3-4 years of title contention.

KnicksorBust
11-10-2014, 07:14 PM
They win more as Barkley by 1988 was a superstar. That gives Chicago another 3-4 years of title contention.

Yeah I dont understand anyone who says less. Barkley was too good.

SLY WILLIAMS
11-10-2014, 07:21 PM
MJ and Jordan could have won 1-3 rings before MJ won his first in 1991

ThuglifeJ
11-10-2014, 07:28 PM
Glue > Star

One day everyone will realize this. Spurs last championship was a good start.

KnicksorBust
11-10-2014, 07:47 PM
Glue > Star

One day everyone will realize this. Spurs last championship was a good start.

Wrong.

Talent > Fit

MJ - Barkley would be like Shaq - Kobe with twice the years.

abe_froman
11-10-2014, 08:00 PM
Wrong.

Talent > Fit

MJ - Barkley would be like Shaq - Kobe with twice the years.
barkley is no shaq,or kobe.and yes talent matters,but whats better 2 great players or 2 great players+very good one? you take out pippen for barkley you are taking out grant and rodman as well(its an upgrade at pf sure),but you now have a gaping hole at sf.those two are great,but the overall talent level of the team drops(you'll do fine with the 2nd 3peat having kukoc ;but the first? look if you have dennis hopson as a starter,you're ****ed.)

richiesaurus310
11-10-2014, 08:09 PM
They almost played together on the Wiz. If you watch the 2001 draft it seemed like a done deal.

Barkley and Jordan

Plus let's say the Wiz trade the first pick for Elton Brand instead of drafting Kwame Brown (Clippers traded the 2nd pick to Chicago), and sign Hakeem Olajuwon. That Wiz team could have been fun to watch. I think Patrick Ewing was a free agent that year too, and the Wiz already had Richard Hamilton.

kingsdelez24
11-10-2014, 08:24 PM
They almost played together on the Wiz. If you watch the 2001 draft it seemed like a done deal.

Barkley and Jordan

Plus let's say the Wiz trade the first pick for Elton Brand instead of drafting Kwame Brown (Clippers traded the 2nd pick to Chicago), and sign Hakeem Olajuwon. That Wiz team could have been fun to watch. I think Patrick Ewing was a free agent that year too, and the Wiz already had Richard Hamilton.

Barkley retired in 2000 though, and that was after rupturing his achilles

THE MTL
11-10-2014, 08:33 PM
I'm going to say less titles. Pippen was an all-star glue guy who had the perfect skillset and ego to play with Jordan. Chemistry goes a long way.

JasonJohnHorn
11-10-2014, 10:33 PM
Barkley developed quicker than Pippen.... so Jordan may have been in a position to beat the Pistons sooner, but that doesn't mean he would have, or that he would have been able to beat the Lakers or Trailblazers.

Pippen's defense and perimeter play-making was central to his chemistry with Jordan. I don't think Barkley would have given Jordan that, though he would have given him rebounding and an exceptional post-scorer, which Jordan never had.


Apples and oranges. Too tough to call, but I gotta imagine he would have won at least as many.

FlashBolt
11-10-2014, 10:41 PM
Barkley developed quicker than Pippen but he isn't a better fit than Pippen. Some of you guys are completely underestimating Pippen. Pippen was an easy 20/7/7 player with the best defense you can ask for. On paper, Barkley looks better but let's see how that looks behind Jordan. Barkley wasn't known for his defense. They'll definitely win rings but I don't see how Barkley is a better fit than Pippen.. Especially when you account for the fact that with Barkley, they most likely wouldn't have Rodman > who was a better rebounder/defender than Barkley.

ThuglifeJ
11-10-2014, 10:46 PM
Glue > Star

One day everyone will realize this. Spurs last championship was a good start.

Wrong.

Talent > Fit

MJ - Barkley would be like Shaq - Kobe with twice the years.

Spoken like a true Knicks fan. Except you should know better.. Remember when the Knicks got Amare and everyone seemed to play off eachother great and they looked sharp and an actual threat to opposing teams? Ya then l star Melo came and everything changed. The Heat never seemed to dominate as well as a team like the Spurs last year. A superstar isn't always a superstar next to another one (ex WADE). A guy that can slash, cut, clean up the misses and defend (Leonard, pippen) is more valuable next to a star than another guy to iso with.

A wholesome team is more dominating than individuals. 5>1 or 2. Fact. Chemistry (team awareness, motivation, ego) , geometry (angles to be attacked from, passing), math (5 is a bigger numeral than 2) back me up here..

richiesaurus310
11-10-2014, 11:03 PM
Barkley retired in 2000 though, and that was after rupturing his achilles

He was strongly considering a comeback. Watch the 1st couple picks of the 2001 draft, Barkley was an analyst for the draft. Everyone thinks he's headed to Washington to mentor Kwame Brown lmao.

KnicksorBust
11-10-2014, 11:17 PM
Wrong.

Talent > Fit

MJ - Barkley would be like Shaq - Kobe with twice the years.
barkley is no shaq,or kobe.and yes talent matters,but whats better 2 great players or 2 great players+very good one? you take out pippen for barkley you are taking out grant and rodman as well(its an upgrade at pf sure),but you now have a gaping hole at sf.those two are great,but the overall talent level of the team drops(you'll do fine with the 2nd 3peat having kukoc ;but the first? look if you have dennis hopson as a starter,you're ****ed.)

Barkley may not be Shaq but he is still better than Pippen and would have made an unstoppable offensive duo with MJ. Also the idea that they would have had a huge hole at SF is absurd. They would have had 10 years to build a roster. They could have easily gotten a defensive SF who could shoot the 3.

KnicksorBust
11-10-2014, 11:26 PM
Glue > Star

One day everyone will realize this. Spurs last championship was a good start.

Wrong.

Talent > Fit

MJ - Barkley would be like Shaq - Kobe with twice the years.

Spoken like a true Knicks fan. Except you should know better.. Remember when the Knicks got Amare and everyone seemed to play off eachother great and they looked sharp and an actual threat to opposing teams? Ya then l star Melo came and everything changed. The Heat never seemed to dominate as well as a team like the Spurs last year. A superstar isn't always a superstar next to another one (ex WADE). A guy that can slash, cut, clean up the misses and defend (Leonard, pippen) is more valuable next to a star than another guy to iso with.

A wholesome team is more dominating than individuals. 5>1 or 2. Fact. Chemistry (team awareness, motivation, ego) , geometry (angles to be attacked from, passing), math (5 is a bigger numeral than 2) back me up here..

So much wrong with this post. Did you honestly use STAT and Melo as proof that Barkley and MJ wouldnt work? Lol come on bro.

Next, your example of superstars NOT working is Miami? Yup the team that made 4 straight finals and won 2 even dealing with injuries. That makes no sense. If anything the Heat proved you can have two similar stars whose talent makes each other better. Look at Wade and Brons efficiency numbers together.

Finally, Barkley and MJ arent even a redundant fit like Wade and Bron. They play differently and both thrive in similar situations. For example they would wreak havoc in transition. Just one of the many reasons why they would have been just as successful as MJ and Pip.

ThuglifeJ
11-11-2014, 01:33 AM
Glue > Star

One day everyone will realize this. Spurs last championship was a good start.

Wrong.

Talent > Fit

MJ - Barkley would be like Shaq - Kobe with twice the years.

Spoken like a true Knicks fan. Except you should know better.. Remember when the Knicks got Amare and everyone seemed to play off eachother great and they looked sharp and an actual threat to opposing teams? Ya then l star Melo came and everything changed. The Heat never seemed to dominate as well as a team like the Spurs last year. A superstar isn't always a superstar next to another one (ex WADE). A guy that can slash, cut, clean up the misses and defend (Leonard, pippen) is more valuable next to a star than another guy to iso with.

A wholesome team is more dominating than individuals. 5>1 or 2. Fact. Chemistry (team awareness, motivation, ego) , geometry (angles to be attacked from, passing), math (5 is a bigger numeral than 2) back me up here..

So much wrong with this post. Did you honestly use STAT and Melo as proof that Barkley and MJ wouldnt work? Lol come on bro.

Next, your example of superstars NOT working is Miami? Yup the team that made 4 straight finals and won 2 even dealing with injuries. That makes no sense. If anything the Heat proved you can have two similar stars whose talent makes each other better. Look at Wade and Brons efficiency numbers together.

Finally, Barkley and MJ arent even a redundant fit like Wade and Bron. They play differently and both thrive in similar situations. For example they would wreak havoc in transition. Just one of the many reasons why they would have been just as successful as MJ and Pip.

You must not watch many games, playoffs included. If you watched the bulls or latest spurs you'd see a big difference in a teams fluidity vs the heat. A team like a spurs last year is overwhelming to defend because they hit you from all angles, they had no superstars and they set records in the finals. They BLEW OUT the heat. Dynamic teams, glue > stars stacked together. Your wrong, sorry.

And obviously I'm not saying amare and melo is jordan and barkley you know i didnt mean so stop. Im not even going to go into detail on the dynamics of team ball because you can't wrap your head around it and think Melo ball is better.

YAALREADYKNO
11-11-2014, 11:06 AM
I think when Jordan first retired the bulls would've been better off with barkley and probably would've made the finals or at least the ECF. Don't know if they would've beaten hakeem and the rockets tho

rapjuicer06
11-11-2014, 03:00 PM
You must not watch many games, playoffs included. If you watched the bulls or latest spurs you'd see a big difference in a teams fluidity vs the heat. A team like a spurs last year is overwhelming to defend because they hit you from all angles, they had no superstars and they set records in the finals. They BLEW OUT the heat. Dynamic teams, glue > stars stacked together. Your wrong, sorry.

And obviously I'm not saying amare and melo is jordan and barkley you know i didnt mean so stop. Im not even going to go into detail on the dynamics of team ball because you can't wrap your head around it and think Melo ball is better.

Come on man, Seriously?

rapjuicer06
11-11-2014, 03:06 PM
7 or 8 IMO. Barkley would have "bullied" the Pistons right back and had MJ's back. Would have been completely different. Jordan and Barkley would have fed off each other. Barkley's ability to rebound, outlet or flat out dribble the ball up himself with Jordan...get out of here, you couldn't stop that. A guy who rebounds like Rodman and scores like Pippen, come on...He was two players in one, which gave them the ability to go out and get another guy to put with them.

ThuglifeJ
11-11-2014, 04:02 PM
Come on man, Seriously?


Once you continue to see your favorite stars lose to the most well-rounded team year after year (whether WCF, ECF, 2nd round, or finals) you will begin to realize it's not about the best 1v1 talent it's about the most dangerous team.


I'm not saying Barkley wouldn't gel with Jordan, who knows, but I'm saying Pippen and Rodman complemented Jordan perfectly and that made things like 72-10 possible

KnicksorBust
11-11-2014, 08:20 PM
Glue > Star

One day everyone will realize this. Spurs last championship was a good start.

Wrong.

Talent > Fit

MJ - Barkley would be like Shaq - Kobe with twice the years.

Spoken like a true Knicks fan. Except you should know better.. Remember when the Knicks got Amare and everyone seemed to play off eachother great and they looked sharp and an actual threat to opposing teams? Ya then l star Melo came and everything changed. The Heat never seemed to dominate as well as a team like the Spurs last year. A superstar isn't always a superstar next to another one (ex WADE). A guy that can slash, cut, clean up the misses and defend (Leonard, pippen) is more valuable next to a star than another guy to iso with.

A wholesome team is more dominating than individuals. 5>1 or 2. Fact. Chemistry (team awareness, motivation, ego) , geometry (angles to be attacked from, passing), math (5 is a bigger numeral than 2) back me up here..

So much wrong with this post. Did you honestly use STAT and Melo as proof that Barkley and MJ wouldnt work? Lol come on bro.

Next, your example of superstars NOT working is Miami? Yup the team that made 4 straight finals and won 2 even dealing with injuries. That makes no sense. If anything the Heat proved you can have two similar stars whose talent makes each other better. Look at Wade and Brons efficiency numbers together.

Finally, Barkley and MJ arent even a redundant fit like Wade and Bron. They play differently and both thrive in similar situations. For example they would wreak havoc in transition. Just one of the many reasons why they would have been just as successful as MJ and Pip.

You must not watch many games, playoffs included. If you watched the bulls or latest spurs you'd see a big difference in a teams fluidity vs the heat. A team like a spurs last year is overwhelming to defend because they hit you from all angles, they had no superstars and they set records in the finals. They BLEW OUT the heat. Dynamic teams, glue > stars stacked together. Your wrong, sorry.

And obviously I'm not saying amare and melo is jordan and barkley you know i didnt mean so stop. Im not even going to go into detail on the dynamics of team ball because you can't wrap your head around it and think Melo ball is better.

Again so much wrong with this post:

#1.) You are trying to use 1 season to generalize a trend of team ball when the last 30 years have overwhelmingly been won by "superstar" led teams. Magic-Kareem, Bird-Mchale, Moses-Dr.J, MJ-Pip, Hakeeem, Duncan-Drob, Shaq-Kobe then Wade, Garnett-Pierce-Allen, Kobe-Gasol, Dirk, LeBron-Wade. With the exceptions of a few teams like the Pistons the vast majority prove talent wins titles.

#2.) I dismiss the premise that a team with Parker-Duncan-Ginobili is not a superstar team. All 3 are hall of famers and Duncan is one of the 10 best players of all-time.

#3.) I would love for you to find the post where I claimed "Melo ball" is superior to team ball. This is the 2nd time you have injected Carmelo Anthony into a discussion about Michael Jordan and Charles Barkley. As much I would love to agree that he belongs in this conversation, he doesn't and any comparison to his style of basketball in this thread is simply misplaced.

FlashBolt
11-12-2014, 05:35 PM
Barkley may not be Shaq but he is still better than Pippen and would have made an unstoppable offensive duo with MJ. Also the idea that they would have had a huge hole at SF is absurd. They would have had 10 years to build a roster. They could have easily gotten a defensive SF who could shoot the 3.

You're completely undervaluing the position. With Barkley, Bulls wouldn't have went for Rodman. Without Rodman, this team may not be able to three-peat. And with Horace Grant, I very much doubt they needed Barkley.. Horace Grant was a better defender and didn't need the ball AT ALL. Granted, he could score/rebound, but he serves the purpose much better than Barkley would have considering MJ was such a high USG player. MJ needed the ball in his hands. With Barkley there, you're not going to see the "Barkley" that Phoenix/Sixers saw. And you're certainly not going to see MJ be MJ. Basketball is all about fit. It's why Melo/Iverson didn't work but Melo/Billups did work. Pippen/MJ would be a much better option in a team aspect together than Barkley/MJ simply because Pippen handles the intangibles. Chicago didn't need a dominating PF. It's why they went after Rodman. Someone who could defend, rebound, and hustle after every play. Barkley was a great player but NBA isn't about putting the two best players and expecting the best result. It's about putting the best pieces and expecting the best results. Regarding the fact of #1, you do realize that MJ and Pippen won six rings, right? It would leave a huge hole to have Pippen removed while you bump Horace Grant (again, one of the elite defenders/double-double machine), and Rodman (another elite defender while also being the greatest rebounder in NBA history), for Barkley. Which is essentially useless because the only thing Barkley did better was pass/score... which Chicago Bulls did not need with MJ on the squad.

Heatcheck
11-12-2014, 06:00 PM
Glue > Star

One day everyone will realize this. Spurs last championship was a good start.

you cant win with glue, you need the star to begin with.
The spurs are irrelevant without Duncan, who can create his own shot, pass, rebound, and be 7ft tall in the paint and be an effective defender.

then again, you cant win without glue...which is why the heat lost last year.
Battier was that guy on the heat those first two championships. the lack of cap space made quality versatility that much more important. The fact that he could shoot 3s, especially in the playoffs, defend perimeter players, defend post players, was a great passer whose iq made the offense look so much better with him on the court, made him indispensable. he went downhill fast last year and I definitely noted his absence last year....**** a mike miller.

But it all starts with the star: Jordan, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, Zeke. they are stars for a reason.

KingPosey
11-12-2014, 06:06 PM
MJ and Jordan could have won 1-3 rings before MJ won his first in 1991

ya having two Jordans at once would make them damn near unstoppable and the two Jordans would have won multiple rings before Jordan even came near his first title in 91.

Heatcheck
11-12-2014, 06:09 PM
how do we know they wouldn't have gone for rodman if they had barkley. Barkley might have stayed in shape playing with Jordan, and played as a small forward. plus hes very versatile, could slot in at center as well.

"Barkley is like Magic [Johnson] and Larry [Bird] in that they don't really play a position. He plays everything; he plays basketball. There is nobody who does what Barkley does. He's a dominant rebounder, a dominant defensive player, a three-point shooter, a dribbler, a playmaker."


-Bill Walton

Mr.B
11-12-2014, 11:00 PM
What could have been had Michael Jordan played his career with Charles Barkley instead of Scottie Pippen. Still 6 titles or more? maybe less? We all knew Scottie Pippen was the point forward of that team and he being out of the picture, that would have make MJ guard the best opposing team guard instead of switching duties with Pip. Anyhow, we all know Charles is one of four players ever in history to have compiled 20,000 points, 10,000 rebounds and 4000 assists.

Would Mj still averaged 30ppg throughout his career?
How would they coexist in the same team? we all know how good friends they are
How many championship they would've won together?

Jordan would have won at least 6 titles even if he had played with Gnarls Barkley.

ThuglifeJ
11-13-2014, 01:16 AM
Glue > Star

One day everyone will realize this. Spurs last championship was a good start.

you cant win with glue, you need the star to begin with.
The spurs are irrelevant without Duncan, who can create his own shot, pass, rebound, and be 7ft tall in the paint and be an effective defender.

then again, you cant win without glue...which is why the heat lost last year.
Battier was that guy on the heat those first two championships. the lack of cap space made quality versatility that much more important. The fact that he could shoot 3s, especially in the playoffs, defend perimeter players, defend post players, was a great passer whose iq made the offense look so much better with him on the court, made him indispensable. he went downhill fast last year and I definitely noted his absence last year....**** a mike miller.

But it all starts with the star: Jordan, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, Zeke. they are stars for a reason.

That's exactly what I'm saying.

If u have a star like Jordan...glue is more important than loading on another star player (unless he doesn't need the ball )