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View Full Version : If Miami/Wade and Bosh Keep This Up Does It Taint Lebron's Legacy...



amos1er
11-03-2014, 07:30 PM
For years now, many Lebron proponents have been very critical of Bosh and Wade claiming that they were of little to no help to him in comparison to other all-time greats during his two title runs and at times were a detriment. The evidence they use are their depleted stats from their previous years when they were both top players in their respective conferences and future hall of famers. I and a few others have argued a different scenario all together. We say that Lebron's stat first mentality was the primary factor that impeded Bosh and Wade from playing to their full potential, thus keeping the Heat from reaching their full potential. The counter claims to this were that Bosh is a "sissy" and is "overrated" and "finished". Additionally, they would say that Wade was a "shell of his former self" and "done". Even more blasphemous claims I heard over the years were that Pippen and Rodman were both better support players than both.

I know... Pretty ridiculous stuff right. Point being, now that Wade and Bosh are both on their own putting up some pretty ridiculous numbers while going undefeated would it completely dispel the myth that they were the ones holding Lebron back and that Lebron carried them to multiple titles... Also, should we then be even more critical of Lebron's individual stat lines as possibly crippling to his teams overall success.

I mean, with that roster, going only 2/4 in the finals when he made his proclamation of not one. Not two.. Not three... Not five..... Not six...... Should be considered underachieving right... Especially if we see this kind of productivity from Wade and Bosh this season. Chris Bosh has even come out recently and warned Kevin Love about Lebron and his team crippling statistical dominance. Is Lebron truly focused on stats to a fault... Discuss...

Sactown
11-03-2014, 07:38 PM
Personally I don't think so, does Harden playing at a high level undermine KD and WB ? No the reality is, when a very good player gets a higher volume usually they'll flourish

it's impossible for 3-4 high volume players to all be successful while on the same roster, there simple isn't enough food at the table to satisify all parties

Finally I don't think the experiment was a failure it's extremely difficult to win multiple consecutive titles, so when a team wins half the time when they're ttogether I'd say that's pretty successful many teams go decades without winning one..

Redrum187
11-03-2014, 07:38 PM
I'm just curious, who were the "proponents" that claimed "they were of little to no help to him"? If there were many, I must have been living under a rock. The entire time I heard how it's a stacked team. Usually, teams with little help aren't called "stacked".

Chronz
11-03-2014, 07:46 PM
Like I've said in the past, we saw what a healthy Wade and Bron were capable of during that ridiculous winning streak, it doesn't change the fact that he was completely hobbled come playoffs or that Bosh was out with an abdominal strain and severely limited in his return. The past is set in stone, the future depends on performance.

Im not seeing this keen production from Wade but its only been 3 games, if you mean if these guys continue winning at an elite level without Bron, then yes. Similar to how the Bulls only lost like 2 more games the year MJ retired if not worse depending on just how elite they are.

Seriously tho, bump this in 3 months when Wade is hobbled and the Heat are in the bottom tier of the conference playoff picture.

HoopsDrive
11-03-2014, 07:46 PM
Miami went to 4 straight finals and won 2 of them, that right there can't be classified as a failure. Bosh is putting up good numbers and playing great but how are Wade's numbers and play impressive so far? A quick check at his per game stats and they're pretty bad given his caliber. There's also the fact that it's just 3 games, Bosh's numbers can go down and Wade's can go up.

I don't understand how so many of you can jump to conclusions based off 3 games. Wtf?

ATX
11-03-2014, 07:46 PM
Whatever fits into your (Today) argument, right Amos1er? Sometimes Wade and Bosh were "Just terrible, overrated, over the hill, soft, whatever nonsense you trolls come up with...But then depending on your debate (If you could ever call it that) you flip your stance like we are idiots who didn't notice, to how "Stacked" the team was and how great Wade and Bosh were. It's called being a hypocrite...No point going round, and round, and round, and round in circles with you trolls.

amos1er
11-03-2014, 07:47 PM
I'm just curious, who were the "proponents" that claimed "they were of little to no help to him"? If there were many, I must have been living under a rock. The entire time I heard how it's a stacked team. Usually, teams with little help aren't called "stacked".

There were a lot of Lebron fanatics who were saying that Bosh and Wade were nothing all that special in terms of having any more help than all of the other all-time greats they love to compare Lebron to.

amos1er
11-03-2014, 07:48 PM
Miami went to 4 straight finals and won 2 of them, that right there can't be classified as a failure. Bosh is putting up good numbers and playing great but how are Wade's numbers and play impressive so far? A quick check at his per game stats and they're pretty bad given his caliber. There's also the fact that it's just 3 games, Bosh's numbers can go down and Wade's can go up.

I don't understand how so many of you can jump to conclusions based off 3 games. Wtf?

When you claim that you are gonna win seven it is.

Chronz
11-03-2014, 07:48 PM
And Bosh has already come out and said its more than just Bron not being around that has brought this out in him. Likewise hes already admitted his short comings during the partnership, Bron made everyone more efficient. Efficiency is what wins games, I think its worth the trade off.

amos1er
11-03-2014, 07:50 PM
Like I've said in the past, we saw what a healthy Wade and Bron were capable of during that ridiculous winning streak, it doesn't change the fact that he was completely hobbled come playoffs or that Bosh was out with an abdominal strain and severely limited in his return. The past is set in stone, the future depends on performance.

Im not seeing this keen production from Wade but its only been 3 games, if you mean if these guys continue winning at an elite level without Bron, then yes. Similar to how the Bulls only lost like 2 more games the year MJ retired if not worse depending on just how elite they are.

Seriously tho, bump this in 3 months when Wade is hobbled and the Heat are in the bottom tier of the conference playoff picture.

Care to sig bet on that one.

amos1er
11-03-2014, 07:50 PM
And Bosh has already come out and said its more than just Bron not being around that has brought this out in him. Likewise hes already admitted his short comings during the partnership, Bron made everyone more efficient. Efficiency is what wins games, I think its worth the trade off.

What about Bosh's warnings to Kevin Love...

IndyRealist
11-03-2014, 07:51 PM
I'm just curious, who were the "proponents" that claimed "they were of little to no help to him"? If there were many, I must have been living under a rock. The entire time I heard how it's a stacked team. Usually, teams with little help aren't called "stacked".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXTl96lYpp0

Chronz
11-03-2014, 07:51 PM
When you claim that you are gonna win seven it is.
Nope, players should strive to win every year. What Bron says to his fan base in a prep rally is in no way more credible than what he says in a serious 1 on 1 interview setting, wherein Bron specifically states how much work its going to be. Theres a reason hes tempered expectations this year.

Call it fluff PR work if you will, but he definitely covered his bases on that one.



So **** taking what players say at face value, come to your own conclusion based on the facts at hand.

abe_froman
11-03-2014, 07:51 PM
no,of course not.but i think many lebron fans and haters think it will(so you have fans rooting against them/dismissing it,and haters rooting for them to).but i doubt they are able to keep it up,they'll be good,but not this height anyways

amos1er
11-03-2014, 07:52 PM
Whatever fits into your (Today) argument, right Amos1er? Sometimes Wade and Bosh were "Just terrible, overrated, over the hill, soft, whatever nonsense you trolls come up with...But then depending on your debate (If you could ever call it that) you flip your stance like we are idiots who didn't notice, to how "Stacked" the team was and how great Wade and Bosh were. It's called being a hypocrite...No point going round, and round, and round, and round in circles with you trolls.

Who is going around in circles, I have maintained that Bosh and Wade were more help than any all-time great has had since Russell in the 60's.

theGhost-isGone
11-03-2014, 07:53 PM
Too soon to tell imo. If the heat say make a top 4 seed and Cleveland isn't the frontrunner (say they make second seed and not convincingly) you could bring this topic back up. If the Heat can do this over the course of a couple years, sure it's a notable theory. Until then, my alarm clock is set for February. Don't wake me beforehand, waking hibernating bears is bad for your health.

Chronz
11-03-2014, 07:53 PM
What about Bosh's warnings to Kevin Love...
I just explained it to you, you consider BOTH sides of the argument and consider the facts of the matter. Lemme know when Bosh says he regrets winning chips.

amos1er
11-03-2014, 07:54 PM
Nope, players should strive to win every year. What Bron says to his fan base in a prep rally is in no way more credible than what he says in a serious 1 on 1 interview setting, wherein Bron specifically states how much work its going to be. Theres a reason hes tempered expectations this year.

Call it fluff PR work if you will, but he definitely covered his bases on that one.



So **** taking what players say at face value, come to your own conclusion based on the facts at hand.

So then are you one of those who believe Lebron went home for the sake of going home and not to increase his chances of winning.

amos1er
11-03-2014, 07:54 PM
I just explained it to you, you consider BOTH sides of the argument and consider the facts of the matter. Lemme know when Bosh says he regrets winning chips.

Put CP3 on that team with Wade and Bosh all those years and they could have done just as well if not better.

Chronz
11-03-2014, 07:54 PM
Care to sig bet on that one.
Sure. What are you predicting again? You weren't very clear in the thread I made before the season began.

abe_froman
11-03-2014, 07:55 PM
Who is going around in circles, I have maintained that Bosh and Wade were more help than any all-time great has had since Russell in the 60's.
thats a laughable assertion.magic,bird,thomas,ect. all had stacked teams equally as good or better then those heat teams

Chronz
11-03-2014, 07:57 PM
Put CP3 on that team with Wade and Bosh all those years and they could have done just as well if not better.

CP3 cant play PF/SF when Bosh goes down with injury. How do they win? Maybe you mean if they completely rebuild the team around that nucleus. In a vacuum, you might be right, but given the actual circumstances of reality, no way they win. Theres a reason Larry Bird wonders if we've ever seen a better championship run. Its etched in stone bro.

amos1er
11-03-2014, 07:58 PM
Sure. What are you predicting again? You weren't very clear in the thread I made before the season began.

Heat will be a top four seed.

amos1er
11-03-2014, 07:59 PM
CP3 cant play PF/SF when Bosh goes down with injury. How do they win? Maybe you mean if they completely rebuild the team around that nucleus. In a vacuum, you might be right, but given the actual circumstances of reality, no way they win. Theres a reason Larry Bird wonders if we've ever seen a better championship run. Its etched in stone bro.

So because Larry Bird says it it must be true. Aren't you one of the ones who slams me for using ex-player opinions... Now all of the sudden you want to use him. He also said that if he wanted to win, he would play with Kobe over Lebron. Straight to Bill Simmons face.

Chronz
11-03-2014, 08:00 PM
So then are you one of those who believe Lebron went home for the sake of going home and not to increase his chances of winning.

Before I answer that, tell me one thing.

If Bosh and Wade are truly as great as you seem to think they still are, how are the Heat not the best place to go over a duo that has yet to even taste the post season and have no idea what it takes to play championship caliber defense?

I think Bron went to Cleveland for a variety of reasons but I dont believe he would have gone to a rudderless Cleveland team that was as poor as it was when he first left. Theres a very valid reason he left and there are valid reasons to return.

HoopsDrive
11-03-2014, 08:05 PM
When you claim that you are gonna win seven it is.

I think we all agree he's egotistical, has a horrendous PR manager and is either oblivious that his words will carry a lot of scrutiny or just doesn't give a **** about that. I can't remember the exact circumstance of when he said that cuz it was so long ago but IIRC it was addressing Miami fans only so it definitely sounded like he was just pumping up the fans and doing it in jest.

Did he claim to the press that his intention was to win 7 times with Miami? If that's the case then you can bash him all you want. To me it just sounded like he was rallying the fans and whatnot. IIRC the 3 of them were all getting a good laugh out of it and he got a good reaction out of the audience (Miami fans).

amos1er
11-03-2014, 08:05 PM
thats a laughable assertion.magic,bird,thomas,ect. all had stacked teams equally as good or better then those heat teams

Did Magic have Kareem in his prime. Did MJ have Rodman in his prime and Pippen for the last three. Thomas had a young pre-prime Dumars for his titles. Bird did have a prime Mchale and Parish, but the competition he faced not only in his own conference, but the finals was much tougher. Not one of the players you mentioned had players even close to the caliber of Bosh and Wade both in their respective primes.

Chronz
11-03-2014, 08:05 PM
So because Larry Bird says it it must be true. Aren't you one of the ones who slams me for using ex-player opinions... Now all of the sudden you want to use him. He also said that if he wanted to win, he would play with Kobe over Lebron. Straight to Bill Simmons face.
Whos saying it must be true? Just because he believes it doesn't make it true, it means its an argument that can be had if you supplement it with objective evidence. When the testimonials/subjective accolades match the objective measures, it takes some serious work to dispel the claim, at the very least you cant just brush it off.

Besides, Im merely using the same tactics you've used in this very thread, which is referencing player opinion, just because you take what people say at face value doesn't mean I do. I merely mention it to add to my point. Notice how out of everything I've written, you chose to highlight a single opinion while ignoring the context I mentioned.

Again, how does CP3 play PF? How is he any less ball dominant. All that aside, if you believe the Heat only began winning once Bron reasserted himself as the alpha, how do we know Wade is willing to sacrifice that role for CP3? Doesn't that matter?

amos1er
11-03-2014, 08:07 PM
Before I answer that, tell me one thing.

If Bosh and Wade are truly as great as you seem to think they still are, how are the Heat not the best place to go over a duo that has yet to even taste the post season and have no idea what it takes to play championship caliber defense?

I think Bron went to Cleveland for a variety of reasons but I dont believe he would have gone to a rudderless Cleveland team that was as poor as it was when he first left. Theres a very valid reason he left and there are valid reasons to return.

Simple, he blamed them for losing last year and unlike the true greats that came before him, he isn't challenging himself to get better and adjust. Instead he jumped ship for two younger hall of famers to keep his title window open for a longer period of time.

WadeKobe
11-03-2014, 08:08 PM
Explain to me this "stat first mentality". Can you?

If efficiency wins games...

Shooting above league average % leads to more wins.
Getting higher than league average assists leads to more wins.
Making other players around you more efficient shooters leads to more wins.
Securing rebounds so that your team has the basketba, not the other team, leads to more wins.

So please explain to me "stat-first mentality".

Are you suggesting that Wade and Bosh would have shot even higher than their lcareer bests with LeBron if they didn't have him?
Are you suggesting that shots going in the basket more often does not lead to wins?
Are you suggesting that teams having possession of the ball on missed shots does not lead to more wins?

Seriously. Explain this to me or FFS quit with it already.

Chronz
11-03-2014, 08:09 PM
I think we all agree he's egotistical, has a horrendous PR manager and is either oblivious that his words will carry a lot of scrutiny or just doesn't give a **** about that. I can't remember the exact circumstance of when he said that cuz it was so long ago but IIRC it was addressing Miami fans only so it definitely sounded like he was just pumping up the fans and doing it in jest.

Did he claim to the press that his intention was to win 7 times with Miami? If that's the case then you can bash him all you want. To me it just sounded like he was rallying the fans and whatnot. IIRC the 3 of them were all getting a good laugh out of it and he got a good reaction out of the audience (Miami fans).

Nope, you can find alot of scripted talk about the "hard work" the "journey" . Hard to buy that its genuine but thats just another reason why I take nothing at absolute face value.

MassoDio
11-03-2014, 08:10 PM
Nothing the Heat do, short of winning a championship without adding another top level talent, this year, is going to do anything negative to LeBron's legacy. Even then, it wouldn't do much.

Look, I really can't stand LeBron. I think he is smug douchebag. That has nothing to do with his greatness. He was the absolute driving force behind those Heat championships. Argue it all you want. Put any spin on it that you want. That is just fact.

Bosh and Wade are not the most help any star level player has had since Russell. That is ridiculous.

I feel that this whole LeBron bashing thing is primarily a way for Kobe fans to desperately try to keep Kobe above LeBron on the all time list in anyone's eyes who will buy it. It is getting absurd at this point.

I dislike them both equally. I respect them both equally. They are both amazing talents. Just stop already.

And as far as Bosh's "warnings to Love about playing with LeBron". OF COURSE IT WILL BE A DIFFICULT TRANSITION FOR LOVE! Bosh was only explaining why it can be. It is way for him to explain why HE HIMSELF struggled at times, and why his numbers were...somewhat underwhelming...in the time he played with LeBron. The difference is....Love plays differently than Bosh does. And much differently than Bosh did when he joined LeBron and Wade. He won't have the same struggles as Bosh did. Will he struggle at times, and have to make adjustments to his game. OD COURSE HE WILL. To think otherwise would be ignorant. That doesn't mean that playing with LeBron is a bad thing, or in any way a detriment to a star player.

Wow...the LeBron hate is so unbelievably asinine. And I can't stand defending him in any way. But come on.

amos1er
11-03-2014, 08:11 PM
Whos saying it must be true? Just because he believes it doesn't make it true, it means its an argument that can be had if you supplement it with objective evidence. When the testimonials/subjective accolades match the objective measures, it takes some serious work to dispel the claim, at the very least you cant just brush it off.

Besides, Im merely using the same tactics you've used in this very thread, which is referencing player opinion, just because you take what people say at face value doesn't mean I do. I merely mention it to add to my point. Notice how out of everything I've written, you chose to highlight a single opinion while ignoring the context I mentioned.

Again, how does CP3 play PF? How is he any less ball dominant. All that aside, if you believe the Heat only began winning once Bron reasserted himself as the alpha, how do we know Wade is willing to sacrifice that role for CP3? Doesn't that matter?

They could have gotten any decent big man to throw at center or just started Bird Man then moved Bosh up to PF. With that roster, any 10 and 10 guy would have gotten the job done. Heck, even Chris Kaman would have sufficed.

Chronz
11-03-2014, 08:11 PM
Simple, he blamed them for losing last year and unlike the true greats that came before him, he isn't challenging himself to get better and adjust. Instead he jumped ship for two younger hall of famers to keep his title window open for a longer period of time.

Even if its at the expense of winning in the foreseeable future? I mean, not that the Cavs couldn't win this year, just that the Heat are definitely the better option under your scenario.

Chronz
11-03-2014, 08:12 PM
They could have gotten any decent big man to throw at center or just started Bird Man then moved Bosh up to PF. With that roster, any 10 and 10 guy would have gotten the job done. Heck, even Chris Kaman would have sufficed.

Chris Kaman has never sufficed in any role bro. And I used to love him

amos1er
11-03-2014, 08:14 PM
Nothing the Heat do, short of winning a championship without adding another top level talent, this year, is going to do anything negative to LeBron's legacy. Even then, it wouldn't do much.

Look, I really can't stand LeBron. I think he is smug douchebag. That has nothing to do with his greatness. He was the absolute driving force behind those Heat championships. Argue it all you want. Put any spin on it that you want. That is just fact.

Bosh and Wade are not the most help any star level player has had since Russell. That is ridiculous.

I feel that this whole LeBron bashing thing is primarily a way for Kobe fans to desperately try to keep Kobe above LeBron on the all time list in anyone's eyes who will buy it. It is getting absurd at this point.

I dislike them both equally. I respect them both equally. They are both amazing talents. Just stop already.

And as far as Bosh's "warnings to Love about playing with LeBron". OF COURSE IT WILL BE A DIFFICULT TRANSITION FOR LOVE! Bosh was only explaining why it can be. It is way for him to explain why HE HIMSELF struggled at times, and why his numbers were...somewhat underwhelming...in the time he played with LeBron. The difference is....Love plays differently than Bosh does. And much differently than Bosh did when he joined LeBron and Wade. He won't have the same struggles as Bosh did. Will he struggle at times, and have to make adjustments to his game. OD COURSE HE WILL. To think otherwise would be ignorant. That doesn't mean that playing with LeBron is a bad thing, or in any way a detriment to a star player.

Wow...the LeBron hate is so unbelievably asinine. And I can't stand defending him in any way. But come on.

I challenge you to name me an all-time great since Russell that has had more help than Lebron.

amos1er
11-03-2014, 08:18 PM
Chris Kaman has never sufficed in any role bro. And I used to love him

Lol, I get your point, but Kaman would be on the bottom tier of big men available for Miami to grab. Not the best example, I agree. He could have put up 12 and 10 for the Heat easily and kept them from being the bottom tier rebounding team that they were... That alone makes them better in some way. Point is, playing around Lebron and his "system" was not the only reason they won. They could have still won while utilizing Wade and Bosh more or with another player such as Durant or Paul.

Chronz
11-03-2014, 08:18 PM
This is the exact same cast as the year before, only upgraded with Deng+McBob. They have some interesting prospects/athletes as well. If they are in the first tier with the expected best in the conference, then you could say we might have underrated them. If they are legit contenders, then we can say Bron might have held them back to a detriment. Really depends on the performance of both, Im curious to see how both hold up .

MassoDio
11-03-2014, 08:18 PM
I challenge you to name me an all-time great since Russell that has had more help than Lebron.

Why would I do that? That is an effort in futility with you. It isn't as if, when I name then because there are several, that you are going to agree with me. You are going to throw out some reason to discount it, that has no merit or backing, and no proof. It will simply be your opinion vs. mine. That goes no where with you. So why put my time into it?

You simply cannot be objective about LeBron.

WadeKobe
11-03-2014, 08:23 PM
Why would I do that? That is an effort in futility with you. It isn't as if, when I name then because there are several, that you are going to agree with me. You are going to throw out some reason to discount it, that has no merit or backing, and no proof. It will simply be your opinion vs. mine. That goes no where with you. So why put my time into it?

You simply cannot be objective about LeBron.

This. Lol.

Even of we conced that Wade was a better 2nd option than any other star has had (true 2011 vs. DAL), the advantage stops there.

Even if we play the stupid <><= game (which isn't how basketball works) the help doesn't compare to the 95-98 bulls.

Rodman > Bosh
Kukoc > Anderson
Kerr = Allen
Harper > Chalmers
Longley > Rashard Lewis

Phil Jackson >>>> Spoelstra.

I mean, it isn't a serious argument. Amos1er just desperately needs to believe it for the world to make any sense to him.

amos1er
11-03-2014, 08:24 PM
Even if its at the expense of winning in the foreseeable future? I mean, not that the Cavs couldn't win this year, just that the Heat are definitely the better option under your scenario.

I think that he didn't believe in Wade and Bosh anymore. Bosh was demoted to a spot up shooter in the system that best suited Lebron's style of play and Wade was a question mark health wise to Lebron even though he pulled himself together for every playoff run they were in and additionally sacrificed his game to keep Lebron happy. I just feel personally, that he didn't take enough accountability on himself (much like his hoard of supporters) and instead looked for the easier way out unlike guys like Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Hakeem, Kobe, Shaq, Bird, Duncan, and Russell, West, and Big O who would have looked to add an extra dimension to their games instead of jumping ship every time the water gets a bit rough.

amos1er
11-03-2014, 08:27 PM
This. Lol.

Even of we conced that Wade was a better 2nd option than any other star has had (true 2011 vs. DAL), the advantage stops there.

Even if we play the stupid <><= game (which isn't how basketball works) the help doesn't compare to the 95-98 bulls.

Rodman > Bosh
Kukoc > Anderson
Kerr = Allen
Harper > Chalmers
Longley > Rashard Lewis

Phil Jackson >>>> Spoelstra.

I mean, it isn't a serious argument. Amos1er just desperately needs to believe it for the world to make any sense to him.

Old Rodman greater than Bosh!!! :laugh: Now I have heard it all.

The only thing you have a point on is Phil being the better coach. Though you must take into account that Phil at the time was unproven and in the process of making a name for himself. The same way that Spoelstra is currently doing.

Tell me this, did Jordan have 5 additional guys who could shoot over 40% from deep to boost his assist rates and cater to his slash and post game...

Buckwheat
11-03-2014, 08:30 PM
Three ****ing games.

amos1er
11-03-2014, 08:30 PM
This. Lol.

Even of we conced that Wade was a better 2nd option than any other star has had (true 2011 vs. DAL), the advantage stops there.

Even if we play the stupid <><= game (which isn't how basketball works) the help doesn't compare to the 95-98 bulls.

Rodman > Bosh
Kukoc > Anderson
Kerr = Allen
Harper > Chalmers
Longley > Rashard Lewis

Phil Jackson >>>> Spoelstra.

I mean, it isn't a serious argument. Amos1er just desperately needs to believe it for the world to make any sense to him.

Oh, and I forgot... Kerr = Allen!!!!!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

amos1er
11-03-2014, 08:33 PM
Why would I do that? That is an effort in futility with you. It isn't as if, when I name then because there are several, that you are going to agree with me. You are going to throw out some reason to discount it, that has no merit or backing, and no proof. It will simply be your opinion vs. mine. That goes no where with you. So why put my time into it?

You simply cannot be objective about LeBron.

Because you claimed otherwise. Usually when I make statements, I can back them up. If not, why even bother in the first place...

MassoDio
11-03-2014, 08:38 PM
Because you claimed otherwise. Usually when I make statements, I can back them up. If not, why even bother in the first place...

That's my point though. You don't back them up. You argue opinion. That does nothing but pad your post stats.

You don't ever bring anything but your opinion. See your above responses to WadeKobe giving an example of a team he thought had more "help".

You don't provide facts. You provide your opinion. And my opinion is not going to change yours. So why bother? Objectivity is not your strong suit. That is evident in this thread alone. (I have been around for quite a while...I know it is not only in this thread that that is the case.)

amos1er
11-03-2014, 08:43 PM
That's my point though. You don't back them up. You argue opinion. That does nothing but pad your post stats.

You don't ever bring anything but your opinion. See your above responses to WadeKobe giving an example of a team he thought had more "help".

You don't provide facts. You provide your opinion. And my opinion is not going to change yours. So why bother? Objectivity is not your strong suit. That is evident in this thread alone. (I have been around for quite a while...I know it is not only in this thread that that is the case.)

So I take it then that this is your clever way of backing down and that you have no feasible examples to speak of...

amos1er
11-03-2014, 08:46 PM
This is the exact same cast as the year before, only upgraded with Deng+McBob. They have some interesting prospects/athletes as well. If they are in the first tier with the expected best in the conference, then you could say we might have underrated them. If they are legit contenders, then we can say Bron might have held them back to a detriment. Really depends on the performance of both, Im curious to see how both hold up .

Guess only time will tell, but if these first three games are any indicator, I would say that the Heat are for real and that it's going to be a three-team race out of the east.

Additionally, I will remember you saying that if the Heat end up best in conference we can then say that Lebron held them back to a detriment. Hence you just agreed with my poll question without realizing it.

MassoDio
11-03-2014, 08:48 PM
So I take it then that this is your clever way of backing down and that you have no feasible examples to speak of...

No...not backing down. Just not getting on the pointless carousel you call a debate. Debating involves facts. You never bring any.

So basically..to make it easier to understand..there is nothing to back down from, because you don't bring anything of substance to the table to start with. Your opinion, is not fact. And your opinion means nothing to anyone in here, in regards to what they feel to be true on the subject. So unless you have something other than complete opinion based comments...there is nothing to back down from. Your opinion is that LeBron had more help than any other championship star...My opinion is that there are several that have. We are on equal ground as to what we have brought to this conversation.

You made the first "claim" with no proof or evidence. It would be on you to back that up first...before expecting someone to back up their disagreement with you.

amos1er
11-03-2014, 08:51 PM
No...not backing down. Just not getting on the pointless carousel you call a debate. Debating involves facts. You never bring any.

So basically..to make it easier to understand..there is nothing to back down from, because you don't bring anything of substance to the table to start with. Your opinion, is not fact. And your opinion means nothing to anyone in here, in regards to what they feel to be true on the subject. So unless you have something other than complete opinion based comments...there is nothing to back down from. Your opinion is that LeBron had more help than any other championship star...My opinion is that there are several that have. We are on equal ground as to what we have brought to this conversation.

You made the first "claim" with no proof or evidence. It would be on you to back that up first...before expecting someone to back up their disagreement with you.

Ok then, you have no examples.

Talk about post padding in order to cover for yourself. Sheesh. Pot meet kettle.

MassoDio
11-03-2014, 08:52 PM
Ok then, you have no examples.

Talk about post padding in order to cover for yourself. Sheesh. Pot meet kettle.

lol...

Talk about not being able to back up your "claims".

You avoid because you have no legitimate debate. You have nothing to back up your opinion. Par for the course.

D-Leethal
11-03-2014, 08:54 PM
I don't think so. Its not LeBrons fault those guys weren't prime fits next to him. Its not like LeBron was going to defer to either one and he shouldn't because he is the best player in the world.

Only way it gives his legacy a hit is if Miami goes deeper in the playoffs and/or beats them in the playoffs.

MassoDio
11-03-2014, 08:55 PM
Whelp, time to leave work and drive in traffic for an hour and a half. Have fun with your LeBRon bashing.

When you have a legitimate stance, with facts, not just your opinion, then maybe there can be a debate that would sway me to your side. Until then, the hot air does nothing to do that.

Have a good one.

Kenny Powders
11-03-2014, 09:12 PM
Not hard to tell it's nba season again. Your customary "will (fill in the blank) ruin Lebrons legacy" thread.

JordansBulls
11-03-2014, 09:14 PM
This. Lol.

Even of we conced that Wade was a better 2nd option than any other star has had (true 2011 vs. DAL), the advantage stops there.

Even if we play the stupid <><= game (which isn't how basketball works) the help doesn't compare to the 95-98 bulls.

Rodman > Bosh
Kukoc > Anderson
Kerr = Allen
Harper > Chalmers
Longley > Rashard Lewis

Phil Jackson >>>> Spoelstra.

I mean, it isn't a serious argument. Amos1er just desperately needs to believe it for the world to make any sense to him.

Rodman in no shape or form was better than Bosh. He didn't even make the allstar team and was 35 to 37 years old on Chicago.

Kerr = Allen :crazy:

Put the pipe down.

amos1er
11-03-2014, 09:15 PM
lol...

Talk about not being able to back up your "claims".

You avoid because you have no legitimate debate. You have nothing to back up your opinion. Par for the course.

I said that Lebron has had more help in Wade and Bosh in their primes than any all-time great since Russell. You then claimed that was a ridiculous statement. I then asked you to come up with an example of someone who is an all-time great who has come since Russell who has had more Roster help. Now all of the sudden you can't produce anything... How can we continue this debate if you can't back up your statement once called out. If you would like me to further elaborate on my point of Bosh and Wade being the most help any all-time great has had, then all you have to do is ask me and will do so. I have no problem holding anyone hand for them in a debate if asked to do so.

amos1er
11-03-2014, 09:15 PM
Rodman in no shape or form was better than Bosh. He didn't even make the allstar team and was 35 to 37 years old on Chicago.

I know right... These guys are ridiculous.

JordansBulls
11-03-2014, 09:17 PM
Wade already proved this by winning a title as the man before Lebron ever showed up. Lebron in fact is the one who needed someone who won it all already.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith_james_100709.html



Going to Miami, it isnít going to be LeBronís team. It is Wadeís team because heís been there and has won a championship there. So the obvious point was that this would not be LeBronís championship if he gets one or more, that he needed to go get help from a champion and another star.

amos1er
11-03-2014, 09:18 PM
Rodman in no shape or form was better than Bosh. He didn't even make the allstar team and was 35 to 37 years old on Chicago.

Kerr = Allen :crazy:

Put the pipe down.

This guys will say or do anything to discredit anyone to further their own agenda's of artificially boosting Lebron's value.

amos1er
11-03-2014, 09:22 PM
Wade already proved this by winning a title as the man before Lebron ever showed up. Lebron in fact is the one who needed someone who won it all already.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith_james_100709.html

Yup, I've tried to tell them that many times over. Teaming up with someone who was already a Finals MVP winner still in their prime doesn't add much to one's legacy in terms of being compared with other all-time greats who didn't need such a handicap. Heck, even Kobe proved himself after people questioned his Shaq titles for years by winning on his own twice as the man. Once Lebron proves he can do this, we can put him in the same conversations as those guys... Until then, let's try to be a bit more realistic.

amos1er
11-03-2014, 09:46 PM
Personally I don't think so, does Harden playing at a high level undermine KD and WB ? No the reality is, when a very good player gets a higher volume usually they'll flourish

it's impossible for 3-4 high volume players to all be successful while on the same roster, there simple isn't enough food at the table to satisify all parties

Finally I don't think the experiment was a failure it's extremely difficult to win multiple consecutive titles, so when a team wins half the time when they're ttogether I'd say that's pretty successful many teams go decades without winning one..

Sorry bro. Going 2/4 with that much talent while facing such weak competition is pretty much a fail. Put prime Bird, Kobe, Magic, or Jordan on that team and it's 4/4 for sure... Maybe 3/4 at worst.

L8kers4life
11-03-2014, 09:57 PM
This. Lol.

Even of we conced that Wade was a better 2nd option than any other star has had (true 2011 vs. DAL), the advantage stops there.

Even if we play the stupid <><= game (which isn't how basketball works) the help doesn't compare to the 95-98 bulls.

Rodman > Bosh
Kukoc > Anderson
Kerr = Allen
Harper > Chalmers
Longley > Rashard Lewis

Phil Jackson >>>> Spoelstra.

I mean, it isn't a serious argument. Amos1er just desperately needs to believe it for the world to make any sense to him.

That was the Stupidest response I have ever seen.

Wade>Pippen, he won a ring as a the main option 2nd or 3rd best sg of all time
Bosh> Rodman Rodman is a great rebounder and defender, but he is not the better player. Bosh will be a first ballot hall of famer, Rodman is not.

Allen>Kerr I cant believe I just read that you think Kerr is better than Ray Allen what a joke.

I like how you compare Luc Longley to Rashard Lewis, news flash Birdman plays center and although he is the back up, he is better than Luc Longley, Udonis Haslem is better than Luc Longley, LOL.

So Chalmers is not as good as Harper, and Kukoc is better than any sixth man.

Your argument is a joke, Jordan also went through, Barkley, Magic, GP and Shawn Kemp, Karl Malone and John Stockton as well as Clyde Drexler and that pretty good Blazers team. Jordan faced tougher competition and never lost, Lebron is 2-3 in the finals in a time when the eastern conference has never been weaker.

amos1er
11-03-2014, 10:00 PM
That was the Stupidest response I have ever seen.

Wade>Pippen, he won a ring as a the main option 2nd or 3rd best sg of all time
Bosh> Rodman Rodman is a great rebounder and defender, but he is not the better player. Bosh will be a first ballot hall of famer, Rodman is not.

Allen>Kerr I cant believe I just read that you think Kerr is better than Ray Allen what a joke.

I like how you compare Luc Longley to Rashard Lewis, news flash Birdman plays center and although he is the back up, he is better than Luc Longley, Udonis Haslem is better than Luc Longley, LOL.

So Chalmers is not as good as Harper, and Kukoc is better than any sixth man.

Your argument is a joke, Jordan also went through, Barkley, Magic, GP and Shawn Kemp, Karl Malone and John Stockton as well as Clyde Drexler and that pretty good Blazers team. Jordan faced tougher competition and never lost, Lebron is 2-3 in the finals in a time when the eastern conference has never been weaker.

Preach brotha!!! :clap:

MassoDio
11-03-2014, 10:40 PM
Oh boy. Now I see where you are getting so lost. You have no idea what a debate IS. No wonder you can't have an intelligent one.

Here let me help you with some really basic concepts of how to debate.

First, you need a topic:

Example: Of all championship winning superstars in the NBA, who has had the most "help" when taking into account the other players on the team in each individual championship year.

Second, you need a stance from one side:

Example: (And here is the part you have provided, and the ONLY thing you have provided to this point.) LeBron has had the most "help" of any superstar since Russell.

Okay good...we have your stance. (Opinion)

Third, we need an opposing stance:

"That stance is ridiculous" Good now, we have opposing view points.

Then, fourth if we want to keep counting to keep it simple to follow...here is where it get's good....you need the person who provided the original stance to back up their stance with FACTS. This is where it is no longer just an opinion, it is an actual start to a debate. It promotes intellectual conversation.

Fifth...the reason I have not responded to your original question...the person who has the opposing view point "debates" his/her opposing view point using facts that can provide a different reality to the original stance.

Okay, now we are cooking with fire. So let's look at your recap of the way our conversation went, since you were under the impression that I wasn't there during it.


I said that Lebron has had more help in Wade and Bosh in their primes than any all-time great since Russell. You then claimed that was a ridiculous statement. I then asked you to come up with an example of someone who is an all-time great who has come since Russell who has had more Roster help. Now all of the sudden you can't produce anything...

You just described the first two steps to a debate. Guess who's turn it would be to go next. That's right, is on you to provide ACTUAL INFORMATION (i.e. facts, just in case that was not clear.) Not more opinions. Facts. Something that can be used to prove your stance. You know, something that can be debated.



How can we continue this debate if you can't back up your statement once called out.

Discussing opposing opinions is not a debate, it is arguing. A debate has facts being discussed so that intelligent conversation can continue while trying to eliminate personal biases. So we cannot continue something that you never started.


If you would like me to further elaborate on my point of Bosh and Wade being the most help any all-time great has had, then all you have to do is ask me and will do so.

[Hint] Providing this to start with would have actually started the debate to begin with. That is how a debate actually works. This is where your major fail was, expecting someone else to provide that before you backed up your original claim with anything more than an opinion.


I have no problem holding anyone hand for them in a debate if asked to do so.

I really loved this sentence. It is so enormously funny, considering that you apparently, have a lack of understanding of how a debate works. The funny part is that you can't even find the debate, much less lead someone to it by the hand. More realistically, I was trying to lead you, and you were slapping my hand away and defiantly sitting in the corner repeating the opinion you already gave.

If you actually want to debate...awesome. Then actually do your part. Stop expecting others to provide the intelligence for you, only for you to just deflect with another opinion with no substance.

I don't expect you to though. So if you even read all the way through this, I will be impressed. (I got incredibly long winded there.)

Have a good evening.

Byronicle
11-03-2014, 11:12 PM
If Kobe Bryant leaves the Lakers, and their players start to win and put up better numbers, does that taint Kobe Bryant's legacy?

FlashBolt
11-03-2014, 11:19 PM
That was the Stupidest response I have ever seen.

Wade>Pippen, he won a ring as a the main option 2nd or 3rd best sg of all time
Bosh> Rodman Rodman is a great rebounder and defender, but he is not the better player. Bosh will be a first ballot hall of famer, Rodman is not.

Allen>Kerr I cant believe I just read that you think Kerr is better than Ray Allen what a joke.

I like how you compare Luc Longley to Rashard Lewis, news flash Birdman plays center and although he is the back up, he is better than Luc Longley, Udonis Haslem is better than Luc Longley, LOL.

So Chalmers is not as good as Harper, and Kukoc is better than any sixth man.

Your argument is a joke, Jordan also went through, Barkley, Magic, GP and Shawn Kemp, Karl Malone and John Stockton as well as Clyde Drexler and that pretty good Blazers team. Jordan faced tougher competition and never lost, Lebron is 2-3 in the finals in a time when the eastern conference has never been weaker.

Your argument is the joke.
1) Wade>Pippen? Wade wasn't in his prime when he played with LeBron. Wade doesn't fit LeBron's game style as much as Pippen would. Can you imagine LeBron+Pippen on the same team? Their defense would destroy a back court and would be imposing against any team.
2) Once again, Bosh was never a better player than Rodman. This is based off what? That he can shoot threes? Rodman was a lethal defender and arguably the greatest rebounder. Again, this is about style. Rodman+Pippen would be a better fit alongside a 1st option than Wade+Bosh.
3) He's comparing Steve Kerr at his time at Chicago to Ray Allen at his team at Miami.. I don't see how it's inaccurate. You're just comparing every player at their prime - which is not the case considering LeBron never had any of these guys at their prime.
4) Luc Longley, who cares. Let's not forget about Horace Grant, though. Top 10 defender at his prime and a more than serviceable player. I'd take Horace over Bosh just off his rebounding, toughness, and defense. Also, he can SCORE in the paint instead of crying about it.
5) Who cares about Chalmers? Those are role players... The point is, Pippen+Rodman>Wade+Bosh in a TEAM game. That cannot be debated. Jordan needed the ball (high USG). He needed Pippen to defend, Rodman to defend, and for them to do the dirty work. LeBron can't rely on Wade+Bosh to defend or rebound..
6) Lol. The Spurs team last season would have destroyed any team Jordan played against... Spurs just played lights out. Faced tougher competition? Who? You're telling me Kemp+Payton were far more imposing than the Spurs team we saw last season? Clyde Drexler and a "pretty good" Blazers team? Stop lying. It was far and away a joke for Drexler to compete against those Bulls. Barkley? He even admitted Bulls were just a better team because they had more weapons... Magic? They were on the verge of being a rather irrelevant team at that point.. Stop making crap up. Bulls were stacked. The original "superteam" that no one ever talks about. Rodman (greatest rebounder/elite defender), Pippen (Solid scorer and could be one when needed, arguably the most versatile defender, great playmaker, one of the greatest all around players in NBA history), Phil Jackson (Widely regarded as the greatest NBA coach in the entirety of NBA.). Right.. Jordan played against much tougher competition.. so how come he couldn't do jack by himself? Clearly, he only began winning when Scottie Pippen evolved.

Byronicle
11-03-2014, 11:19 PM
Sorry bro. Going 2/4 with that much talent while facing such weak competition is pretty much a fail. Put prime Bird, Kobe, Magic, or Jordan on that team and it's 4/4 for sure... Maybe 3/4 at worst.

Put Lebron with Pau Gasol, Howard, Nash and that team would've at least won 1 playoff game.

FlashBolt
11-03-2014, 11:29 PM
Amos1er with his pointless arguments as always. Based on zero evidence but always alluding to who would win and who wouldn't. How would you know, amos1er? There is zero chance of you ever guessing something like that based on a various amount of factors. But... I think we can all agree Shaq+LeBron at their peak together would be at 10 rings by now.

Raps18-19 Champ
11-03-2014, 11:32 PM
Doesn't make sense to punish Lebron because at the time he was in Miami, Bosh and Wade played subpar.

FlashBolt
11-03-2014, 11:42 PM
Doesn't make sense to punish Lebron because at the time he was in Miami, Bosh and Wade played subpar.

Exactly. Wade was clearly no longer a top 20 player (often injured, deduct some value off his impact on the team), Bosh was DESTROYED countless times in the playoffs. He was exposed by every tough front court out there. This season, sure, they played Washington, Philadelphia, and Toronto.. Teams who aren't necessarily tough nor do they play tough front court defense. Let's see what happens when Bosh has to face a team who has potential to win a championship.. aka: Clippers, Spurs, Bulls, Cleveland. Watch him get EXPOSED. First option Bosh? Good luck.

Cal827
11-03-2014, 11:55 PM
Well, hopefully people will realize that an NBA title is a team effort, and that Lebron had some very good teammates around him to win the title, just like most of the other teams. Tired of hearing this "Lebron won with absolutely no help" ****.

naps
11-03-2014, 11:55 PM
Yes only if you admit Wade is the second best SG of all-time. You can't have it both ways. Your obsession with LeBron goes beyond explanation. Pretty sure LeBron's wife doesn't spend as much time thinking of him as you do man. A glorified version of Vince Carter/Allen Iverson can't be wherewhere near LeBron. Let it go man/girl.

FlashBolt
11-04-2014, 12:00 AM
Well, hopefully people will realize that an NBA title is a team effort, and that Lebron had some very good teammates around him to win the title, just like most of the other teams. Tired of hearing this "Lebron won with absolutely no help" ****.

When you consider how they played in the playoffs, LeBron's cast doesn't compare to the other greats: James Worthy would have been the FMVP vs Detroit had they won. I mean, more examples can be digested if needed. Wade was lackluster and was often getting beat down by opposing teams such as Pacers, Celtics, and Bulls. Bosh just got beat down every single time against a tough front court. James went OFF against Celtics for them to win. James went OFF against Spurs for them to win (where was Wade/Bosh for that game? Besides that lone rebound, Bosh was particularly MIA from the series). James had to hit a game winning shot against Pacers or else they would have lost the series 4-3.. James went OFF against Pacers.. TWICE. So, let's stop pretending that Wade+Bosh were at their peak and dominating. Both of those guys wouldn't equate to half of Shaq's dominance.

nastynice
11-04-2014, 12:22 AM
I don't think it "taints" his legacy. He was the main guy, and he was killing it. I think what it does is, reinforce the idea that he needed MAJOR help in order to win. But I'm like the OP, I was always kinda aware of that. Its weird with Lebron, its like he makes bad players around him better, but makes good players around him worse. Not knocking him, but I guess he's so dominant a player that other high level players who need the ball in their hands just can't get into a rhythm because clearly Lebron's better and his game comes first.

Let's see what happens in cleveland now, he still has some good years left and can change his legacy still

rex.reyesiii
11-04-2014, 05:35 AM
Yes only if you admit Wade is the second best SG of all-time. You can't have it both ways. Your obsession with LeBron goes beyond explanation. Pretty sure LeBron's wife doesn't spend as much time thinking of him as you do man. A glorified version of Vince Carter/Allen Iverson can't be wherewhere near LeBron. Let it go man/girl.

Preach brotha!!! :clap:

Jamiecballer
11-04-2014, 12:32 PM
while this is obviously a bait thread, equally obvious is the fact that the trio were never a good fit for each other. it's one thing to say he had tons of talent around him, which he certainly did. but it is statistical FACT that he never got near the actual help. this is what generally happens when teams are manufactured rather than organically grown, and that is the real legitimate criticism of Lebron here - he hasn't been real good at picking teammates that complement his abilities.

Jamiecballer
11-04-2014, 12:33 PM
PS - Amos1er,

nothing says "stat first" like a pass first shoot later mentality. RIGHT. lol

5ass
11-04-2014, 01:08 PM
Lol amos1er quit while you're behind.

juggla53
11-04-2014, 01:29 PM
There were a lot of Lebron fanatics who were saying that Bosh and Wade were nothing all that special in terms of having any more help than all of the other all-time greats they love to compare Lebron to.


In terms of career accolades and things like that Bosh and wade are right up there in terms of a supporting cast but when you look at the playoff stats their last three years together bosh was a 13ppg 7reb guy who is not much of a rip protector (1blk per game). Wade averaged 18ppg through those same three years and was hobbled the majority of the time.

Wade and bosh have been great players throughout the careers but it was obvious throughout that run that Lebron was more on his own then a majority of stars who have won championships

L8kers4life
11-04-2014, 01:35 PM
Your argument is the joke.
1) Wade>Pippen? Wade wasn't in his prime when he played with LeBron. Wade doesn't fit LeBron's game style as much as Pippen would. Can you imagine LeBron+Pippen on the same team? Their defense would destroy a back court and would be imposing against any team.
2) Once again, Bosh was never a better player than Rodman. This is based off what? That he can shoot threes? Rodman was a lethal defender and arguably the greatest rebounder. Again, this is about style. Rodman+Pippen would be a better fit alongside a 1st option than Wade+Bosh.
3) He's comparing Steve Kerr at his time at Chicago to Ray Allen at his team at Miami.. I don't see how it's inaccurate. You're just comparing every player at their prime - which is not the case considering LeBron never had any of these guys at their prime.
4) Luc Longley, who cares. Let's not forget about Horace Grant, though. Top 10 defender at his prime and a more than serviceable player. I'd take Horace over Bosh just off his rebounding, toughness, and defense. Also, he can SCORE in the paint instead of crying about it.
5) Who cares about Chalmers? Those are role players... The point is, Pippen+Rodman>Wade+Bosh in a TEAM game. That cannot be debated. Jordan needed the ball (high USG). He needed Pippen to defend, Rodman to defend, and for them to do the dirty work. LeBron can't rely on Wade+Bosh to defend or rebound..
6) Lol. The Spurs team last season would have destroyed any team Jordan played against... Spurs just played lights out. Faced tougher competition? Who? You're telling me Kemp+Payton were far more imposing than the Spurs team we saw last season? Clyde Drexler and a "pretty good" Blazers team? Stop lying. It was far and away a joke for Drexler to compete against those Bulls. Barkley? He even admitted Bulls were just a better team because they had more weapons... Magic? They were on the verge of being a rather irrelevant team at that point.. Stop making crap up. Bulls were stacked. The original "superteam" that no one ever talks about. Rodman (greatest rebounder/elite defender), Pippen (Solid scorer and could be one when needed, arguably the most versatile defender, great playmaker, one of the greatest all around players in NBA history), Phil Jackson (Widely regarded as the greatest NBA coach in the entirety of NBA.). Right.. Jordan played against much tougher competition.. so how come he couldn't do jack by himself? Clearly, he only began winning when Scottie Pippen evolved.


Do you believe this garbage you spew, your the biggest Lebrion nut hugger on here.

Those are just who the Bulls played in the finals, Jordan was actually challenged in his own conference unlike the joke of a conference the East has been since Lebron has been in Miami. Cake walk to finals every year, and anytime Lebron has been challenged he either losses or gets bailed out by his teammates. Don't ever tell me again that Wade was not better than Pippen. In Miami's first chance at the title Wade was the best player on the Heat and he was great for the first championship as well. And even if he was declining like you say, his stats were right on Par with Pippens. Pippen was never the best player on a team with Michael Jordan, especially in the finals.

nastynice
11-04-2014, 01:50 PM
The thing is, how much of Wade and Bosh's performance is on Lebron? If players get credit for making their teammates better, do they also have to take fall for making their teammates worse?

By trying to take the easy way out, lebron probably made it harder on himself. Rather than pairing with other superstars whom he thought would just turn on like switch without getting any touches in the first 3 quarters, he should have tried to find high quality role players. I'm still unsure of how Kyrie's development is going to be affected with Lebron and Love on the court.

I always knew the gay dinosaur was a legitimate baller, despite what this numbers said, because you could tell he was just trying to fit the role he had to in order to allow them to play together as a team. Good to see him get a bigger role and let his talent show.

nastynice
11-04-2014, 01:52 PM
Do you believe this garbage you spew, your the biggest Lebrion nut hugger on here.

Those are just who the Bulls played in the finals, Jordan was actually challenged in his own conference unlike the joke of a conference the East has been since Lebron has been in Miami. Cake walk to finals every year, and anytime Lebron has been challenged he either losses or gets bailed out by his teammates. Don't ever tell me again that Wade was not better than Pippen. In Miami's first chance at the title Wade was the best player on the Heat and he was great for the first championship as well. And even if he was declining like you say, his stats were right on Par with Pippens. Pippen was never the best player on a team with Michael Jordan, especially in the finals.

Heat faced some pretty good teams in the playoffs a few times, their first year vs the celtics and bulls. Pacers also were pretty good for a year or two.

KnicksorBust
11-04-2014, 01:54 PM
Sure. What are you predicting again? You weren't very clear in the thread I made before the season began.


Heat will be a top four seed.

Might have missed the follow-up post. Chronz did you accept?


Oh boy. Now I see where you are getting so lost. You have no idea what a debate IS. No wonder you can't have an intelligent one.

Here let me help you with some really basic concepts of how to debate.

First, you need a topic:

Example: Of all championship winning superstars in the NBA, who has had the most "help" when taking into account the other players on the team in each individual championship year.

Second, you need a stance from one side:

Example: (And here is the part you have provided, and the ONLY thing you have provided to this point.) LeBron has had the most "help" of any superstar since Russell.

Okay good...we have your stance. (Opinion)

Third, we need an opposing stance:

"That stance is ridiculous" Good now, we have opposing view points.

Then, fourth if we want to keep counting to keep it simple to follow...here is where it get's good....you need the person who provided the original stance to back up their stance with FACTS. This is where it is no longer just an opinion, it is an actual start to a debate. It promotes intellectual conversation.

Fifth...the reason I have not responded to your original question...the person who has the opposing view point "debates" his/her opposing view point using facts that can provide a different reality to the original stance.

Okay, now we are cooking with fire. So let's look at your recap of the way our conversation went, since you were under the impression that I wasn't there during it.



You just described the first two steps to a debate. Guess who's turn it would be to go next. That's right, is on you to provide ACTUAL INFORMATION (i.e. facts, just in case that was not clear.) Not more opinions. Facts. Something that can be used to prove your stance. You know, something that can be debated.




Discussing opposing opinions is not a debate, it is arguing. A debate has facts being discussed so that intelligent conversation can continue while trying to eliminate personal biases. So we cannot continue something that you never started.



[Hint] Providing this to start with would have actually started the debate to begin with. That is how a debate actually works. This is where your major fail was, expecting someone else to provide that before you backed up your original claim with anything more than an opinion.



I really loved this sentence. It is so enormously funny, considering that you apparently, have a lack of understanding of how a debate works. The funny part is that you can't even find the debate, much less lead someone to it by the hand. More realistically, I was trying to lead you, and you were slapping my hand away and defiantly sitting in the corner repeating the opinion you already gave.

If you actually want to debate...awesome. Then actually do your part. Stop expecting others to provide the intelligence for you, only for you to just deflect with another opinion with no substance.

I don't expect you to though. So if you even read all the way through this, I will be impressed. (I got incredibly long winded there.)

Have a good evening.

I can't believe you took the time to write an entire "How To" guide for debating rather than making an actual argument about the basketball discussion in the thread.


while this is obviously a bait thread, equally obvious is the fact that the trio were never a good fit for each other. it's one thing to say he had tons of talent around him, which he certainly did. but it is statistical FACT that he never got near the actual help. this is what generally happens when teams are manufactured rather than organically grown, and that is the real legitimate criticism of Lebron here - he hasn't been real good at picking teammates that complement his abilities.

First of all, he picked teammates that allowed him to win 2 rings. That's already more titles than a lot of hall of famers. And he won those titles as clearly the best player on the team. This is why my response to the OP is that no matter what the Heat do this season, it has no impact on the past. Wade was universally recognized as a top 5 player when LeBron went to Miami and Bosh was considered top 15-20. There is no need for revisionist history when everyone knew how good they were supposed to be when they came together.

I would also argue the best "picking teammates" performance LeBron has ever done was the one he did this offseason finding a way to get with Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love. This Cavs team may have a bumpy regular season as they work their way up to the standings but come playoff time they are the team to beat in the East and in my opinion the most likely team to win the title (mostly because the Spurs will have to win 3 challenging series just to get there).

Goose17
11-04-2014, 02:18 PM
Pippen and Chicago did well after Jordan left, did that ruin Jordans legacy?

What about Shaq's legacy after he left LA and Kobe went on to win more chips?

Nah, it won't effect Lebrons legacy other than in the mind of haters and who cares about them.

IKnowHoops
11-04-2014, 02:33 PM
Did Magic have Kareem in his prime. Did MJ have Rodman in his prime and Pippen for the last three. Thomas had a young pre-prime Dumars for his titles. Bird did have a prime Mchale and Parish, but the competition he faced not only in his own conference, but the finals was much tougher. Not one of the players you mentioned had players even close to the caliber of Bosh and Wade both in their respective primes.

So injured and only able to play 55 games a year is prime to you? Man you really are a joke. One minute your telling me how Kobe was injured during a playoff run, and then the next your ignoring Wade's injuries and saying he was in his prime. Wade's prime was in 2006 when he did what Kobe couldn't do and won with an out of his prime Shaq. Wade was at the tail end of his prime the first year, and was never close to his prime when Lebron won rings. Why lie about things or are you just that ignorant to think Wade was in his Prime.

Secondly more help than Kobe when he had a monster like Shaq. Kobe was able to score 15pts a game at 33% shooting and still win a ring. Could Lebron of played that garbage and still get carried to a ring? Heck no. Horrible.

Chronz
11-04-2014, 02:49 PM
Wade already proved this by winning a title as the man before Lebron ever showed up. Lebron in fact is the one who needed someone who won it all already.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith_james_100709.html

Nobody cares about what people thought would happen before a single game was played, particularly from a hack like smith. We all know what actually transpired, Bron was the MVP and they only won once it became his team.

Jamiecballer
11-04-2014, 03:09 PM
First of all, he picked teammates that allowed him to win 2 rings. That's already more titles than a lot of hall of famers. And he won those titles as clearly the best player on the team. This is why my response to the OP is that no matter what the Heat do this season, it has no impact on the past. Wade was universally recognized as a top 5 player when LeBron went to Miami and Bosh was considered top 15-20. There is no need for revisionist history when everyone knew how good they were supposed to be when they came together.
meh. there is no revisionist history going on here. plenty of people, myself included, questioned whether the sum of that team could ever equal it's parts. it didn't IMO.

I would also argue the best "picking teammates" performance LeBron has ever done was the one he did this offseason finding a way to get with Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love. This Cavs team may have a bumpy regular season as they work their way up to the standings but come playoff time they are the team to beat in the East and in my opinion the most likely team to win the title (mostly because the Spurs will have to win 3 challenging series just to get there).
i can tell we are going to have disagreements here so let's just agree to disagree on what it takes to make a great team and let it go.

Chronz
11-04-2014, 03:58 PM
I think that he didn't believe in Wade and Bosh anymore. Bosh was demoted to a spot up shooter in the system that best suited Lebron's style of play and Wade was a question mark health wise to Lebron even though he pulled himself together for every playoff run they were in and additionally sacrificed his game to keep Lebron happy.
I question if its what best suited his game, playing alongside Wade was never conducive to his statline, its why all of them were more productive when only playing alongside 1 star, the thing is, the Heat were so top heavy that if you remove even 1 star from the equation, the team results were middling. So you cant make that argument for Bosh without considering the other side of the argument. What the Heat did was construct a system that best suited the TEAM. And Wade gained more than he lost IMO, the man had trouble staying healthy despite carrying a smaller load, hes already had a brief scare 3 games into this season, I think he appreciates those championships more than anything. I dont know what you mean by pulling himself together for every playoff run, because that is not a compliment, he was severely limited in several of their runs.


I just feel personally, that he didn't take enough accountability on himself (much like his hoard of supporters) and instead looked for the easier way out unlike guys like Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Hakeem, Kobe, Shaq, Bird, Duncan, and Russell, West, and Big O who would have looked to add an extra dimension to their games instead of jumping ship every time the water gets a bit rough.
I dont believe you have a firm enough grasp on history to make these claims. Many of the guys you mentioned either requested trades, better teammates/coaches, colluded their ways to bigger markets, or in the case of Magic, threatened not to enter the league in the first place if he didn't get the team he wanted. Simply put, your really full of it with this one.


Lol, I get your point, but Kaman would be on the bottom tier of big men available for Miami to grab. Not the best example, I agree. He could have put up 12 and 10 for the Heat easily and kept them from being the bottom tier rebounding team that they were... That alone makes them better in some way. Point is, playing around Lebron and his "system" was not the only reason they won. They could have still won while utilizing Wade and Bosh more or with another player such as Durant or Paul.
Even if I agreed with you, how exactly do they acquire Kaman? You've already replaced Bron with CP3, now you need to add a bigman you find to be of quality, something the Heat tried to do over the years without success. Point is, playing around Bron was the BIGGEST reason they won, to say it was not the only reason is hallow criticism because there has NEVER in history been a championship team that won for a singular reason. And please dont get me started on your rebounding projections, I've seen where that gos.


Guess only time will tell, but if these first three games are any indicator, I would say that the Heat are for real and that it's going to be a three-team race out of the east.
I cannot emphasize enough how minuscule of a point that is. 3 games into any season will tell you a bunch of BS. Like do we really think this will be the least productive season of Wade's career? But yes, the Heat have been the best team thus far.


Additionally, I will remember you saying that if the Heat end up best in conference we can then say that Lebron held them back to a detriment. Hence you just agreed with my poll question without realizing it.
Think of it in tiers.

We have the absolute contenders in the West. (Im thinking Spurs, Clips, Thunder(if they were healthy).
We have the secondary contenders that have a punchers chance, this includes the best Eastern teams (presumably Chicago, Cleveland and the rest of the Western playoff teams).
Then we have a plethora of outsiders from the East and maybe a few Western teams that are on that level but might miss the playoffs.
Then we have the bottom of the barrel of the Eastern playoff teams

Some teams will move up or down depending on health/age, we will likely have a few Eastern teams that make it into the upper tiers of contention but I dont see Miami being one of them. In fact, I think its possible they decline into the 4th tier of irrelevancy.

To put it statistically, this is how the tiers look in terms of Regular Season SRS:
Group I:
SAS: 8.0
Clips : 7.2
OKC: 6.66

Group II:
GSW: 5.15
HOU:5.06

Group III:
Portland: 4.4
Miami: 4.15
Indiana: 3.63


Miami was indeed the best team in the East last year, and they backed that up in the playoffs, but the gap between the West and the East was fairly steep. I do think the East is alil stronger this year (tho I felt that way last year) but in terms of rankings, I dont think Miami is any better than the 4.1 rating they posted last year and definitely wont come anywhere close to the 7.6 rating they posted the year prior.




Personally, I feel Miami is in group 4, a team that wont really post the efficiency on par with true contenders, with a possibility to drop into the 5th tier with the Eastern scrum that barely makes the playoffs. If they end up in group 3 (which is where they were last year), then they would have achieved the same statistical output sans Bron, and should theoretically contend in the East. Wade and Bosh will have to put in serious workman like performances for that to be possible and something tells me it would lead to a disastrous playoff performances but thats an argument for another day.

So in terms of our sig bet, by saying a top-3 Eastern team, Im assuming you're putting them on par with Cleveland/Chicago, or do you have some other ranking?

Sig bet is based on regular season efficiency and wins. Miami won 54 games last year and they had an expected winning% of 54 games(go figure).

What do the top-3 in the East look like for you? Because I think we can both agree the best still reside out west until further notice. And how good does Miami have to be in order for this to "taint" Bron? How far do they advance?

Sadds The Gr8
11-04-2014, 04:06 PM
Seriously tho, bump this in 3 months when Wade is hobbled and the Heat are in the bottom tier of the conference playoff picture.

This

Chronz
11-04-2014, 04:15 PM
Pippen and Chicago did well after Jordan left, did that ruin Jordans legacy?

What about Shaq's legacy after he left LA and Kobe went on to win more chips?

Nah, it won't effect Lebrons legacy other than in the mind of haters and who cares about them.

Gauging a teams before and after impact is pretty revealing tho. Like when Shaq left, we saw 1 team completely fall apart and another become a contender. And in MJ's case, there was a dropoff, it just wasn't as apparent for a few reasons.

RowBTrice
11-04-2014, 04:16 PM
3 games into the season and we have "If they keep this up...." lol c'mon. They aren't going to keep this up. I believe the Heat have already peaked this season. This is the healthiest that Wade will be all year, and Bosh isn't going to be able to keep this up for the season.

Goose17
11-04-2014, 04:16 PM
Gauging a teams before and after impact is pretty revealing tho. Like when Shaq left, we saw 1 team completely fall apart and another become a contender. And in MJ's case, there was a dropoff, it just wasn't as apparent for a few reasons.

I'm just saying it didn't effect any of their legacies really.

This just feels like people who dislike Lebron reaching for a new way to criticise.

Chronz
11-04-2014, 04:17 PM
So injured and only able to play 55 games a year is prime to you? Man you really are a joke. One minute your telling me how Kobe was injured during a playoff run, and then the next your ignoring Wade's injuries and saying he was in his prime. Wade's prime was in 2006 when he did what Kobe couldn't do and won with an out of his prime Shaq. Wade was at the tail end of his prime the first year, and was never close to his prime when Lebron won rings. Why lie about things or are you just that ignorant to think Wade was in his Prime.

Secondly more help than Kobe when he had a monster like Shaq. Kobe was able to score 15pts a game at 33% shooting and still win a ring. Could Lebron of played that garbage and still get carried to a ring? Heck no. Horrible.

Indiana wasn't the biggest threat to the Lakers title hopes, not even close when I think about it.

Chronz
11-04-2014, 04:30 PM
I'm just saying it didn't effect any of their legacies really.

This just feels like people who dislike Lebron reaching for a new way to criticise.

I think its all part of the equation. One thing I wonder tho, is what do we consider to be better support, the more talented player or the higher impact player.

I see many laughing at the notion that Rodman could surpass Bosh, and while I would agree Bosh is of greater help, its not as far fetched as it seems given the context of their roles. Bosh was obviously going to defer to Wade and Bron so long as the 3 were together, and in that role he had to provide in other ways not related to dominating the ball. Well thats just what Rodman's been doing his entire career, he was a DPOY caliber defender early on and then a rebound whore later on. He remained an All-Star caliber player based on how much better he made his teams.

Asking Bosh to play that role is an under use of his offensive talent but also a huge leap to ask from him in terms of rebounding+defense. I think Rodman's greatest asset was the fact that hes the best to do what he does, meaning no other team would get that advantage from its peripheral players. The net gain in terms of their impact is at a star level because of their specialty. Rodman was underrated IMO. You couldn't have asked for a better role player and depending on how the teams are built, I could see Rodman being of more use to a championship squad.

ewing
11-04-2014, 04:31 PM
i think it reinforcing by believe that Clev was on the right track the first time when it comes to maximizing Bron talents.

ewing
11-04-2014, 04:33 PM
I think its all part of the equation. One thing I wonder tho, is what do we consider to be better support, the more talented player or the higher impact player.

I see many laughing at the notion that Rodman could surpass Bosh, and while I would agree Bosh is of greater help, its not as far fetched as it seems given the context of their roles. Bosh was obviously going to defer to Wade and Bron so long as the 3 were together, and in that role he had to provide in other ways not related to dominating the ball. Well thats just what Rodman's been doing his entire career, he was a DPOY caliber defender early on and then a rebound whore later on. He remained an All-Star caliber player based on how much better he made his teams.

Asking Bosh to play that role is an under use of his offensive talent but also a huge leap to ask from him in terms of rebounding+defense. I think Rodman's greatest asset was the fact that hes the best to do what he does, meaning no other team would get that advantage from its peripheral players. The net gain in terms of their impact is at a star level because of their specialty. Rodman was underrated IMO. You couldn't have asked for a better role player and depending on how the teams are built, I could see Rodman being of more use to a championship squad.

solid post i agree

Big Zo
11-04-2014, 05:02 PM
If by some miracle the Heat wins a championship this year, it certainly wouldn't look good on LeBron.

Oefarmy2005
11-04-2014, 05:04 PM
I say NO, Lebron Carried that team at least during one of the championship runs if not both in the playoffs.

prodigy
11-04-2014, 05:18 PM
A healthy wade is a great player. He was hurt and horrible last season and lebron carried his butt to the finals.

Heat are a good team if wade stays healthy. I think only way it hurts lebron is if heat beat cavs in playoffs. Just can't see that happening.

Also wades shooting 42% right now. So if that continues heat won't do much. Deng is shooting 57% we all know that won't last.

ewing
11-04-2014, 05:25 PM
A healthy wade is a great player. He was hurt and horrible last season and lebron carried his butt to the finals.

Heat are a good team if wade stays healthy. I think only way it hurts lebron is if heat beat cavs in playoffs. Just can't see that happening.

Also wades shooting 42% right now. So if that continues heat won't do much. Deng is shooting 57% we all know that won't last.

last year wade averaged 17 a night in the playoffs and shot 50% from the floor

prodigy
11-04-2014, 05:30 PM
Umm u watch finals? When wade couldn't jump an inch off ground.

ewing
11-04-2014, 05:48 PM
Umm u watch finals? When wade couldn't jump an inch off ground.

you said Bron carried Wade to the finals. Wade average 17 a night on 50% from the floor in the post season including a subpar finals. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about

KnicksorBust
11-04-2014, 05:53 PM
meh. there is no revisionist history going on here. plenty of people, myself included, questioned whether the sum of that team could ever equal it's parts. it didn't IMO.

i can tell we are going to have disagreements here so let's just agree to disagree on what it takes to make a great team and let it go.

Well if you set unrealistic expectations and ignore context then you can say whatever you want but two championships is a success.

Jamiecballer
11-04-2014, 06:02 PM
Well if you set unrealistic expectations and ignore context then you can say whatever you want but two championships is a success.

i'm not doing either of those things. they took a roster that had an overabundance of some talents, a deficit in others and made it work by simply overwhelming others with their talent. they achieved the goal, but Lebron could have put himself in other spots where the results would have been even better IMO simply by playing with players whose skills complemented his own more.

koreancabbage
11-04-2014, 06:10 PM
ROFL. facepalm.

Maybe if they win a championship. Miami is still a good team! Real tests come mid season and whether Bosh/Wade are hurt (again) and if Spolestra can prove his doubters wrong (if he is a good or bad coach) - Seems like Spolestra is doing a great job here so far.

I mean Bosh was a top 5 PF before Lebron and had to change the way he played so that the offense would run more smoothly. Defensively, he was better because he didn't have to think/ do so much on offense.

I think after watching the Raptors game on Sunday, Bosh was horrible on defense (46 points in the paint, Raptors dominated the Heat inside and Bosh wasn't a factor) and Jonas got so many open and easy looks at the basket (Jonas missed a lot of gimmes it wasn't even funny) but Bosh and Wade had outstanding games offensively.

KnicksorBust
11-04-2014, 06:14 PM
i'm not doing either of those things. they took a roster that had an overabundance of some talents, a deficit in others and made it work by simply overwhelming others with their talent. they achieved the goal, but Lebron could have put himself in other spots where the results would have been even better IMO simply by playing with players whose skills complemented his own more.

In the same post you said they had a deficit of talent and overwhelmed people with their talent. Contradictory don't you think? Also, where could he have gotten better results?

IKnowHoops
11-04-2014, 06:16 PM
I think its all part of the equation. One thing I wonder tho, is what do we consider to be better support, the more talented player or the higher impact player.

I see many laughing at the notion that Rodman could surpass Bosh, and while I would agree Bosh is of greater help, its not as far fetched as it seems given the context of their roles. Bosh was obviously going to defer to Wade and Bron so long as the 3 were together, and in that role he had to provide in other ways not related to dominating the ball. Well thats just what Rodman's been doing his entire career, he was a DPOY caliber defender early on and then a rebound whore later on. He remained an All-Star caliber player based on how much better he made his teams.

Asking Bosh to play that role is an under use of his offensive talent but also a huge leap to ask from him in terms of rebounding+defense. I think Rodman's greatest asset was the fact that hes the best to do what he does, meaning no other team would get that advantage from its peripheral players. The net gain in terms of their impact is at a star level because of their specialty. Rodman was underrated IMO. You couldn't have asked for a better role player and depending on how the teams are built, I could see Rodman being of more use to a championship squad.

I think when you factor in that Bosh isn't able to play to his full potential on a team with Wade and Lebron. And Worm is able to play to his full potential on a team with Jordan and Pippen...then also figure that Worm doesn't command the large salary that Bosh takes away. For the money you are getting way more from worm, and arguable you are getting more from Worm period.

6/16/3 from Rodman for an average contract >16/7/1 from Bosh when you consider the huge cap hit Bosh has, disabling the Heat to add the extra quality pieces that the Bulls had. Also considering the defense Worm provided. I think Bosh is a better player for sure, but for the money and consequentially the overall team talent from 1-12, Worm was better for the Bulls team makeup than Bosh was for the Heat. Hindsight baby.

KnicksorBust
11-04-2014, 06:21 PM
I think when you factor in that Bosh isn't able to play to his full potential on a team with Wade and Lebron. And Worm is able to play to his full potential on a team with Jordan and Pippen...then also figure that Worm doesn't command the large salary that Bosh takes away. For the money you are getting way more from worm, and arguable you are getting more from Worm period.

6/16/3 from Rodman for an average contract >16/7/1 from Bosh when you consider the huge cap hit Bosh has, disabling the Heat to add the extra quality pieces that the Bulls had. Also considering the defense Worm provided. I think Bosh is a better player for sure, but for the money and consequentially the overall team talent from 1-12, Worm was better for the Bulls team makeup than Bosh was for the Heat. Hindsight baby.

I can't stand this idea that because someone isn't averaging their career high PPG that they aren't playing up to their potential.

Teufelshunde4
11-04-2014, 06:36 PM
Even more blasphemous claims I heard over the years were that Pippen and Rodman were both better support players than both.


Pippen was the greatest ever supporting player. Could be the man when needed and otherwise played a very selfless team oriented game.
When Rodman was rebounding and into the game he was a great supporting player.

Wade and Bosh skills sets are those that require having the ball in their hands to impact the game.. Pippen and Rodman skills were not based on that. Pip and Rodman could go scoreless and both still utterly dominate a game.

Wade nor Bosh can make that claim.. Wade is borderline HOF imo.. And frankly im not sure where Bosh fits in when his career is over.

KnicksorBust
11-04-2014, 06:51 PM
Pippen was the greatest ever supporting player. Could be the man when needed and otherwise played a very selfless team oriented game.
When Rodman was rebounding and into the game he was a great supporting player.

Wade and Bosh skills sets are those that require having the ball in their hands to impact the game.. Pippen and Rodman skills were not based on that. Pip and Rodman could go scoreless and both still utterly dominate a game.

Wade nor Bosh can make that claim.. Wade is borderline HOF imo.. And frankly im not sure where Bosh fits in when his career is over.

I agree Pippen was the greatest ever supporting player. The problem is Wade in 2012 was a co-superstar which is even better. Wade's 2012 was more impressive than at least 4 of Pippen's title runs and you could argue it was as good or better than all 6.

5ass
11-04-2014, 07:34 PM
The heat lost a lot of play off games because of bosh. Either he was missing open jumpers, not rebounding, or not protecting the paint. You can't fault LeBron for that. I'm not saying he was always bad, but he cost them a lot of games.

This thread is way too premature. I guess someone got too excited and blew his load.

nastynice
11-04-2014, 07:41 PM
The heat lost a lot of play off games because of bosh. Either he was missing open jumpers, not rebounding, or not protecting the paint. You can't fault LeBron for that. I'm not saying he was always bad, but he cost them a lot of games.

This thread is way too premature. I guess someone got too excited and blew his load.

ah c'mon, that's like blaming Lebron for not guarding opposing centers good enough. Bosh's role was turned into what fit the team, not what fit his game. I'm not saying it let's him off the hook 100%, but if a team asks a player to play to their weaknesses rather than their strengths, then the blame has to go beyond just the player

I mean you got a damn near 7 footer camped out at the 3 point time half the time, can you really blame him for not playing that role perfectly?

5ass
11-04-2014, 07:55 PM
ah c'mon, that's like blaming Lebron for not guarding opposing centers good enough. Bosh's role was turned into what fit the team, not what fit his game. I'm not saying it let's him off the hook 100%, but if a team asks a player to play to their weaknesses rather than their strengths, then the blame has to go beyond just the player

I mean you got a damn near 7 footer camped out at the 3 point time half the time, can you really blame him for not playing that role perfectly?

I dont disagree, I'm just saying i dont think lebron should take the blame. Bosh couldn't adjust well enough, and neither could wade. Actually LeBron adjusted his game the most to become a better post player and defender for them. Wade had years to become a better shooter.

Tony_Starks
11-04-2014, 08:03 PM
Let's keep it real there where a lot people here that predicted MIA would basically be a cellar dweller this season. 7-8 seed if that.

This has nothing to do with Lebron. This has everything to do with his fanatical fans saying Miami would just fall off a cliff because the "greatest player on the planet" isn't there.

Jamiecballer
11-04-2014, 08:23 PM
In the same post you said they had a deficit of talent and overwhelmed people with their talent. Contradictory don't you think? Also, where could he have gotten better results?
No I don't think I'm being contradictory at all. They weren't a great team, they were overwhelmingly talented if that makes it clearer. They had a lot of unused talent on those teams and didn't dominate thoroughly the way they would have if they were a better balanced team where everyone can play their best game.

Places that he could have gone this free agency where he would blend seamlessly into a talented team while also maximizing his own talents - Toronto, Phoenix

koreancabbage
11-04-2014, 08:38 PM
Let's keep it real there where a lot people here that predicted MIA would basically be a cellar dweller this season. 7-8 seed if that.

This has nothing to do with Lebron. This has everything to do with his fanatical fans saying Miami would just fall off a cliff because the "greatest player on the planet" isn't there.

no way. Miami is probably close to 5-7 range if anything. They might surprise because we don't actually know if Spolestra is a good coach or not. They would be closer to the bottom if Wade and Bosh get hurt over the course of the season (expected). Its not because the Heat are a bad team, its just the health of Bosh and Wade that concern me (people?)

Tony_Starks
11-04-2014, 08:57 PM
no way. Miami is probably close to 5-7 range if anything. They might surprise because we don't actually know if Spolestra is a good coach or not. They would be closer to the bottom if Wade and Bosh get hurt over the course of the season (expected). Its not because the Heat are a bad team, its just the health of Bosh and Wade that concern me (people?)

Have you been watching the games my man? I know it's early but they are looking nice.

prodigy
11-04-2014, 09:36 PM
Umm u watch finals? When wade couldn't jump an inch off ground.

you said Bron carried Wade to the finals. Wade average 17 a night on 50% from the floor in the post season including a subpar finals. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about

?? Lol guess u missed the finals then. He had a bad finals for his standards. 43% shooting. Lebron shot 57% BTW. Wade was just out of it. Looked hurt and old. That's a reason why lebron left. Not really sure what I'm wrong about. Lebron clearly carried that team. Lebron needed more then 17 points from his robin.

prodigy
11-04-2014, 09:41 PM
Let's keep it real there where a lot people here that predicted MIA would basically be a cellar dweller this season. 7-8 seed if that.

This has nothing to do with Lebron. This has everything to do with his fanatical fans saying Miami would just fall off a cliff because the "greatest player on the planet" isn't there.

That depends on wade. If healthy heat could be real good. If not, well 7-8 seed is real.

bucketss
11-04-2014, 09:51 PM
you're making up you're own arugements, i doubt anyone said that.

1. everyone knew bosh would put up big numbers without lebron, everyone knew being a 3rd options hurt bosh production. you're not a genius predicting the obvious.

2. how is wade putting up ridiculous numbers? plus he was only dogged because of his injuries, he already put up great numbers when healthy when lebron was there.

3. stop reaching.

DemarDerozan
11-04-2014, 10:15 PM
For years now, many Lebron proponents have been very critical of Bosh and Wade claiming that they were of little to no help to him in comparison to other all-time greats during his two title runs and at times were a detriment. The evidence they use are their depleted stats from their previous years when they were both top players in their respective conferences and future hall of famers. I and a few others have argued a different scenario all together. We say that Lebron's stat first mentality was the primary factor that impeded Bosh and Wade from playing to their full potential, thus keeping the Heat from reaching their full potential. The counter claims to this were that Bosh is a "sissy" and is "overrated" and "finished". Additionally, they would say that Wade was a "shell of his former self" and "done". Even more blasphemous claims I heard over the years were that Pippen and Rodman were both better support players than both.

I know... Pretty ridiculous stuff right. Point being, now that Wade and Bosh are both on their own putting up some pretty ridiculous numbers while going undefeated would it completely dispel the myth that they were the ones holding Lebron back and that Lebron carried them to multiple titles... Also, should we then be even more critical of Lebron's individual stat lines as possibly crippling to his teams overall success.

I mean, with that roster, going only 2/4 in the finals when he made his proclamation of not one. Not two.. Not three... Not five..... Not six...... Should be considered underachieving right... Especially if we see this kind of productivity from Wade and Bosh this season. Chris Bosh has even come out recently and warned Kevin Love about Lebron and his team crippling statistical dominance. Is Lebron truly focused on stats to a fault... Discuss...

AMos1er... You're the man homey. I don't know what we disagreed about previously but you have been spitting some good **** lately. Cheers.

Jeffy25
11-04-2014, 11:27 PM
There were a lot of Lebron fanatics who were saying that Bosh and Wade were nothing all that special in terms of having any more help than all of the other all-time greats they love to compare Lebron to.

Very different discussions.

Lebron had help, much like Magic and Bird and Kobe and others have had.






To end this thread.

Does it take from Jordan's legacy that the Bulls won 55 games without him, only 2 less than they won the year before?

Of course not.

The Heat are a very good team, and Wade and Bosh now have Deng, who is a solid player too.

Heat can easily be a 50 win team, that doesn't take away from Lebron. Just like the Bulls winning 50 games without Jordan, doesn't take away from his legacy.

bucketss
11-05-2014, 12:01 AM
OP jinxed the heat.

ewing
11-05-2014, 12:14 AM
Very different discussions.

Lebron had help, much like Magic and Bird and Kobe and others have had.






To end this thread.

Does it take from Jordan's legacy that the Bulls won 55 games without him, only 2 less than they won the year before?

Of course not.

The Heat are a very good team, and Wade and Bosh now have Deng, who is a solid player too.

Heat can easily be a 50 win team, that doesn't take away from Lebron. Just like the Bulls winning 50 games without Jordan, doesn't take away from his legacy.


Micheal's teams went from unbeatable to good. LeBron's team will go from very good to good in a best case scenario

JNA17
11-05-2014, 01:34 AM
OP jinxed the heat.

Not really per say. Bosh and Wade played great, the rest not so much.

amos1er
11-05-2014, 03:43 AM
Very different discussions.

Lebron had help, much like Magic and Bird and Kobe and others have had.

Magic had Worth and Kareem yes, but Kareem was over 35 for the majority of their rings and Worthy wasn't as good as Bosh.

Bird had McHale and Parish yes. Both in their primes too I might add. However, McHale was only a young rookie in 1981 and could not be compared to a prime Bosh or Wade. Neither player in in the class of Dwayne Wade. Additionally, Bird beat out far greater teams in both the post season and finals en-route to his THREE titles. If not for Magic,

Magic and Bird had to face each other... Who did Lebron have to face... No one equal to his own caliber... He joined his greatest conference rivals instead of facing them.

Kobe did have Shaq, but he didn't have much after Shaq and not even close to a third option as great as Bosh. Additionally, Kobe and Shaq beat out far greater competition in their own conference than Lebron's Heat did. The Blazers, Kings, and Spurs teams they faced and beat are far greater than anything Lebron has ever beaten. Additionally, Pau and Odom don't compare to Wade and Bosh and they still beat out greater teams to their titles than this Heat team did.


To end this thread.

Wishful thinking.


Does it take from Jordan's legacy that the Bulls won 55 games without him, only 2 less than they won the year before?

Of course not.

Finally, a valid point... However, Jordan never impeded his teammates the way Lebron did to Wade and Bosh... Especially Bosh. Jordan was responsible for making Pippen the player he was... Not the other way around. Pippen was at his best because of Jordan's tutelage both on and off the court. Therefore, there wasn't that much of a drop off in his production when Jordan left like what we are seeing with Wade and Bosh... Especially Bosh. Bosh has been victimized by Lebron fans for years to his own avail. Many were claiming him to be a complete sissy and overrated and would scoff at the notion that he was a top tier all-star turned into a spot up shooter by Lebron.


The Heat are a very good team, and Wade and Bosh now have Deng, who is a solid player too.

Heat can easily be a 50 win team, that doesn't take away from Lebron. Just like the Bulls winning 50 games without Jordan, doesn't take away from his legacy.

Swap out Deng with Carmelo, Durant, or any other elite SF and I'm sure you would have gotten the same result you got with Lebron... If not better. That's the difference, put any other player in place of Jordan, and no way they three-peat back to back.

Time will tell, I think that a healthy Wade and Bosh can get them even better than a 50 win team in the weak east. I honestly think they could go 55-60 if healthy... That's how good both of them are. They might even be able to come out of the east... Something Pippen could not ever do without Jordan. This thread is mainly to those who would chastise Wade and Bosh over the years and act like they were nothing more than mere roll players. Face is, they were far more than old Pippen and Rodman, a single prime Shaq, Worthy and old Kareem, a rookie McHale and Parish, Gasol and Odom, old Drexler and roll players, old West and Goodrich, and Parker and Ginobili... They truly were the best since Russell's Celtics.

LakersEaglesLA
11-05-2014, 04:36 AM
Magic had Worth and Kareem yes, but Kareem was over 35 for the majority of their rings and Worthy wasn't as good as Bosh.

Bird had McHale and Parish yes. Both in their primes too I might add. However, McHale was only a young rookie in 1981 and could not be compared to a prime Bosh or Wade. Neither player in in the class of Dwayne Wade. Additionally, Bird beat out far greater teams in both the post season and finals en-route to his THREE titles. If not for Magic,

Magic and Bird had to face each other... Who did Lebron have to face... No one equal to his own caliber... He joined his greatest conference rivals instead of facing them.

Kobe did have Shaq, but he didn't have much after Shaq and not even close to a third option as great as Bosh. Additionally, Kobe and Shaq beat out far greater competition in their own conference than Lebron's Heat did. The Blazers, Kings, and Spurs teams they faced and beat are far greater than anything Lebron has ever beaten. Additionally, Pau and Odom don't compare to Wade and Bosh and they still beat out greater teams to their titles than this Heat team did.



Wishful thinking.



Finally, a valid point... However, Jordan never impeded his teammates the way Lebron did to Wade and Bosh... Especially Bosh. Jordan was responsible for making Pippen the player he was... Not the other way around. Pippen was at his best because of Jordan's tutelage both on and off the court. Therefore, there wasn't that much of a drop off in his production when Jordan left like what we are seeing with Wade and Bosh... Especially Bosh. Bosh has been victimized by Lebron fans for years to his own avail. Many were claiming him to be a complete sissy and overrated and would scoff at the notion that he was a top tier all-star turned into a spot up shooter by Lebron.



Swap out Deng with Carmelo, Durant, or any other elite SF and I'm sure you would have gotten the same result you got with Lebron... If not better. That's the difference, put any other player in place of Jordan, and no way they three-peat back to back.

Time will tell, I think that a healthy Wade and Bosh can get them even better than a 50 win team in the weak east. I honestly think they could go 55-60 if healthy... That's how good both of them are. They might even be able to come out of the east... Something Pippen could not ever do without Jordan. This thread is mainly to those who would chastise Wade and Bosh over the years and act like they were nothing more than mere roll players. Face is, they were far more than old Pippen and Rodman, a single prime Shaq, Worthy and old Kareem, a rookie McHale and Parish, Gasol and Odom, old Drexler and roll players, old West and Goodrich, and Parker and Ginobili... They truly were the best since Russell's Celtics.

I Can't Believe You said Chris Bosh was better than JAMES friggin WORTHY! OMG

Jeffy25
11-05-2014, 07:05 AM
Magic had Worth and Kareem yes, but Kareem was over 35 for the majority of their rings and Worthy wasn't as good as Bosh.

Bird had McHale and Parish yes. Both in their primes too I might add. However, McHale was only a young rookie in 1981 and could not be compared to a prime Bosh or Wade. Neither player in in the class of Dwayne Wade. Additionally, Bird beat out far greater teams in both the post season and finals en-route to his THREE titles. If not for Magic,

Magic and Bird had to face each other... Who did Lebron have to face... No one equal to his own caliber... He joined his greatest conference rivals instead of facing them.

Kobe did have Shaq, but he didn't have much after Shaq and not even close to a third option as great as Bosh. Additionally, Kobe and Shaq beat out far greater competition in their own conference than Lebron's Heat did. The Blazers, Kings, and Spurs teams they faced and beat are far greater than anything Lebron has ever beaten. Additionally, Pau and Odom don't compare to Wade and Bosh and they still beat out greater teams to their titles than this Heat team did.



Wishful thinking.



Finally, a valid point... However, Jordan never impeded his teammates the way Lebron did to Wade and Bosh... Especially Bosh. Jordan was responsible for making Pippen the player he was... Not the other way around. Pippen was at his best because of Jordan's tutelage both on and off the court. Therefore, there wasn't that much of a drop off in his production when Jordan left like what we are seeing with Wade and Bosh... Especially Bosh. Bosh has been victimized by Lebron fans for years to his own avail. Many were claiming him to be a complete sissy and overrated and would scoff at the notion that he was a top tier all-star turned into a spot up shooter by Lebron.



Swap out Deng with Carmelo, Durant, or any other elite SF and I'm sure you would have gotten the same result you got with Lebron... If not better. That's the difference, put any other player in place of Jordan, and no way they three-peat back to back.

Time will tell, I think that a healthy Wade and Bosh can get them even better than a 50 win team in the weak east. I honestly think they could go 55-60 if healthy... That's how good both of them are. They might even be able to come out of the east... Something Pippen could not ever do without Jordan. This thread is mainly to those who would chastise Wade and Bosh over the years and act like they were nothing more than mere roll players. Face is, they were far more than old Pippen and Rodman, a single prime Shaq, Worthy and old Kareem, a rookie McHale and Parish, Gasol and Odom, old Drexler and roll players, old West and Goodrich, and Parker and Ginobili... They truly were the best since Russell's Celtics.

The Lebron hate is strong and blind in this one

amos1er
11-05-2014, 07:05 AM
I Can't Believe You said Chris Bosh was better than JAMES friggin WORTHY! OMG

Don't be fooled just because he didn't play up to his potential with Lebron. Had he been paired along an all-time great like Jordan, Magic, Bird, or Kobe he could have easily been a 20 and 10 guy. at minimum... Even as a third option. Might have been a bit harsh to say he is better than Worthy, but it's honestly pretty damn close. I have no doubts, if he had been utilized properly, the Heat would have lived up to the hype and Lebron might not have had to jump ship and return to Cleveland with his tail between his legs.

D-Leethal
11-05-2014, 10:36 AM
The Heat being good is not going to taint his legacy.

The Heat being better than the Cavs will taint his legacy.

The Heat beating the Cavs in the playoffs will be the icing on the cake.

bucketss
11-05-2014, 02:49 PM
Don't be fooled just because he didn't play up to his potential with Lebron. Had he been paired along an all-time great like Jordan, Magic, Bird, or Kobe he could have easily been a 20 and 10 guy. at minimum... Even as a third option. Might have been a bit harsh to say he is better than Worthy, but it's honestly pretty damn close. I have no doubts, if he had been utilized properly, the Heat would have lived up to the hype and Lebron might not have had to jump ship and return to Cleveland with his tail between his legs.

kobe will turn bosh to dwight,

Bostonjorge
11-05-2014, 02:57 PM
Heat won't effect James legacy anymore. James is already known as a coward who switches jersey instead of getting better in the offseason. He has the 2 most water downed rings in history and led his stacked team to the worst beat down in finals history.

As for bosh and wade. Wade already showed he didn't need lebron but James needed wade. Wade and bosh where enough to win a title back in 2011 but James terrible play and high turnover rate was to much for wade and bash amazing play to carry. Like some said we already knew once the lebron take all style offense was gone Miami big 2 was going to put up good numbers. While bosh great play is leading to wins.

Jamiecballer
11-05-2014, 03:13 PM
Don't be fooled just because he didn't play up to his potential with Lebron. Had he been paired along an all-time great like Jordan, Magic, Bird, or Kobe he could have easily been a 20 and 10 guy. at minimum... Even as a third option. Might have been a bit harsh to say he is better than Worthy, but it's honestly pretty damn close. I have no doubts, if he had been utilized properly, the Heat would have lived up to the hype and Lebron might not have had to jump ship and return to Cleveland with his tail between his legs.

if you think he wasn't being utilized properly that's an issue for the coaching staff.

but the part where he'd be a 20/10 guy playing with those others is laughable. he signed on as a 3rd wheel. cite the case of a team that had 3 20PPG scorers the same season for comparisons sake.

ewing
11-05-2014, 03:39 PM
if you think he wasn't being utilized properly that's an issue for the coaching staff.

but the part where he'd be a 20/10 guy playing with those others is laughable. he signed on as a 3rd wheel. cite the case of a team that had 3 20PPG scorers the same season for comparisons sake.

coaching staff HA, LeBron is the head coach and GM of every team he plays for. He actually takes over the front office before signing a contract.

Rockice_8
11-05-2014, 03:48 PM
Not really per say. Bosh and Wade played great, the rest not so much.

Get used to it.

ATX
11-05-2014, 04:09 PM
Where on earth does Amos1er find the time to spend just about every waking moment posting hatred for a freaking athlete? The obsession is just purely mind blowing, and especially since it's an athlete...

RaiderLakersA's
11-05-2014, 04:54 PM
The Heat being good is not going to taint his legacy.

The Heat being better than the Cavs will taint his legacy.

The Heat beating the Cavs in the playoffs will be the icing on the cake.


If the Heat do it repeatedly, yes, this.

Rain City
11-05-2014, 04:56 PM
i agree that if MIA land a top 3 seed, especially if they finish better than CLE which looks very possible, it does affect the outlook of lebron's legacy (clearly bosh and wade will have superb seasons if this happens). I don't really like to use the word taint bc i think he has very well proven to be an all time great and champion, so to me nothing taints his legacy. he's one of the best ever. period.

sure Mj, Magic, Bird had great casts, but wade and bosh were still very much in the prime of their career. not to mention most of those 4 years you could say MIA had one of the best, if not best benches in the league.

i feel like most people think 2 out of 4 was disappointing for that collection of talent. swap lebron with a handful of other guys i think they coulda done the same. and swap a MJ, bird, magic with lebron on those squads and you gotta think they are coming away with at least 3 out of 4.

SportsFanatic10
11-05-2014, 05:23 PM
Not really per say. Bosh and Wade played great, the rest not so much.

meh i'd say they played good not great, wade had some screw ups down the stretch trying to force the action a bit and bosh got off to a slow start and had some foul trouble limiting his minutes in the first half. i'm excited for this heat team this year though, mcroberts is just slowly working his way back from offseason surgery, and birdman and granger have been out as well as haslem. there's still some potential help with wade and bosh's support system on the way. if wade can stay healthy(obviously a big if), then i wouldn't be surprised at all to see miami in the 3rd seed at the end of the season which would be awesome.

Jamiecballer
11-05-2014, 05:24 PM
coaching staff HA, LeBron is the head coach and GM of every team he plays for. He actually takes over the front office before signing a contract.

great comment. glad we got that out of the way.

ewing
11-05-2014, 05:26 PM
its true

Grind-It-Out
11-05-2014, 06:07 PM
It's the very start of the season.

The Heat have the exact same issues they've had the past few years, but now they're without LeBron.

Why would anyone think they're going to do well this season?

tp13baby
11-05-2014, 06:29 PM
I have never believed you needed a 3 headed monster. Bosh and Wade are very capable of taking Miami deep without Lebron. To me, I would rather have 2 studs and a good supporting cast. I just don't think you can properly split the shots/opportunities between 3 superstars.

amos1er
11-05-2014, 06:29 PM
if you think he wasn't being utilized properly that's an issue for the coaching staff.

but the part where he'd be a 20/10 guy playing with those others is laughable. he signed on as a 3rd wheel. cite the case of a team that had 3 20PPG scorers the same season for comparisons sake.

Check the 80's Lakers and Celtic teams. Heck, even Odom's numbers were better than Bosh's during that run. Only problem is... Odom went up as a player with Kobe and Bosh went down with Lebron. Why don't you look at Wilt's numbers when he was only the Lakers as a third option. When you have such a talent at your side like Lebron had with Bosh and Wade, you don't squander it to keep up your personal stats, you sacrifice for the good of the team.

SportsFanatic10
11-05-2014, 06:32 PM
It's the very start of the season.

The Heat have the exact same issues they've had the past few years, but now they're without LeBron.

Why would anyone think they're going to do well this season?

ummm because wade and bosh are still very capable players and now they get to go back to playing their games. they can do what comes natural to them and get their touches, there's a difference no question.

amos1er
11-05-2014, 06:38 PM
ummm because wade and bosh are still very capable players and now they get to go back to playing their games. they can do what comes natural to them and get their touches, there's a difference no question.

Wow... Finally a real Heat fan... Didn't know any actually existed on here. Ya, don't take too much offense, these guys will do and say anything to prop up their hero... Even if it means unjustifiably putting down other great players.

SportsFanatic10
11-05-2014, 06:46 PM
Wow... Finally a real Heat fan... Didn't know any actually existed on here. Ya, don't take too much offense, these guys will do and say anything to prop up their hero... Even if it means unjustifiably putting down other great players.

i don't agree with your anti lebron agenda, and i think that while lebron wasn't a great fit with wade and bosh he was mostly responsible for the championship success. i do kinda wish i got to see wade and bosh without lebron play together in their primes sometimes. but i'm happy with the success lebron brought, and now i'm excited to see bosh and wade play their games again unhindered by trying to fit into roles that their talent put them above.

Jamiecballer
11-05-2014, 09:25 PM
Check the 80's Lakers and Celtic teams.
here's the thing - it didn't actually happen. although it came close a couple of times. scoring was about 15% higher in the league at this time. what sort of adjustment have you made for that when you claim that Bosh should be a 20 and 10 guy easy?


Heck, even Odom's numbers were better than Bosh's during that run. Only problem is... Odom went up as a player with Kobe and Bosh went down with Lebron.
Odom's numbers were up a very modest amount, mainly just rebounding. But Odom didn't have anywhere to go but up when he left the Clippers at that time. Bosh was the undisputed man on his own team before coming to Miami. His numbers had nowhere to go but down. Most reasonable people see this.


Why don't you look at Wilt's numbers when he was only the Lakers as a third option. When you have such a talent at your side like Lebron had with Bosh and Wade, you don't squander it to keep up your personal stats, you sacrifice for the good of the team.
by doing what? shooting every time the ball is in his hands like Kobe does? yeah, that's a real sacrifice.

bucketss
11-05-2014, 10:44 PM
heat 0-2 since the creation of this thread.

amos1er
11-05-2014, 10:45 PM
Where on earth does Amos1er find the time to spend just about every waking moment posting hatred for a freaking athlete? The obsession is just purely mind blowing, and especially since it's an athlete...

And yet you still find the time to comment. Fueling the fire that you claim to loathe.