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View Full Version : Roughly...give me your personal top 25-30 players



IKnowHoops
10-28-2014, 06:34 AM
Give me your top 25-30 players. Its very hard to be concrete about exact player rankings all time, but if you can or want to, go for it. But if you want to leave it a little open because some are so close you can follow my example.

And how about we select players based on there peak. As if you are trying to win a ring one year and you have the player at there best.

Here goes...

The first 3 are very close and I'd take anyone to start my team and be happy.
1.Mike
2.Bron
3.Shaq
The next two were probably the two most era dominant players in history and can be in any order
4.Wilt
5.Kareem
The next three again are very close and are almost interchangeable as well and can be put in any order.
6. Drob
7. Dream
8. Duncan
And the last two round out my top ten and are also very hard for me to decide who Id rather have.
9.KG
10. Durant
Then after that I would go with these three wings who are pretty interchangeable
11.Tmac
12.Wade
13.Kobe
Then here is where I would put a big group who I think could all be mixed in order
14.Oscar
15.Magic
16.Bird
17.K.Malone
18.Barkley
19.M.Malone
20.CP3
21.Dirk
22.Dr. J
23.Elgin
Then I have these three guys in any order.
24.Iverson
25.Ewing
26.Pippen
Then my next tier in any order would be
27.Payton
28.Isaiah
29.Stockton
30.Nash
Honorable mentions that I really like who I think could of jumped into this conversation if they would of done something a little different are Amare, Vince,Dominique, Tim Hardaway, Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill. I actually like all these guys better than my bottom 3 guys. I think they had it in them to be better, but either injury or mentality just prevented it from happening.

Of guys playing now I think Blake, and Anthony Davis may have what it takes to get into this list. Maybe Melo but I just don't like his black hole mentality but I like him at a talent.

Hard for me to rank the Pettit's, and West's of the world because I think they would get annihilated by today's talent even though I acknowledge they were good in there time.

WaDe03
10-28-2014, 11:34 AM
Wow.

YAALREADYKNO
10-28-2014, 12:15 PM
1.Michael Jordan
2.Magic Johnson
3.Shaquille O'neal
4.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5.Wilt Chamberlain
6.Kobe Bryant
7.Lebron James
8.Larry Bird
9.Tim Duncan
10.Hakeem Olajuwon
11.Bill Russell
12.Jerry West
13.Moses Malone
14.Dirk Nowitzki
15.Isiah Thomas
16.Julius Erving
17.Charles Barkley
18.Karl Malone
19.Dwyane Wade
20.Oscar Robertson
21.Kevin Garnett
22.David Robinson
23.Allen Iverson
24.Patrick Ewing
25.John Stockton
26.Jason Kidd
27.Gary Payton
28.Clyde Drexler
29.Scottie Pippen
30.Steve Nash

YAALREADYKNO
10-30-2014, 10:58 AM
Give me your top 25-30 players. Its very hard to be concrete about exact player rankings all time, but if you can or want to, go for it. But if you want to leave it a little open because some are so close you can follow my example.

And how about we select players based on there peak. As if you are trying to win a ring one year and you have the player at there best.

Here goes...

The first 3 are very close and I'd take anyone to start my team and be happy.
1.Mike
2.Bron
3.Shaq
The next two were probably the two most era dominant players in history and can be in any order
4.Wilt
5.Kareem
The next three again are very close and are almost interchangeable as well and can be put in any order.
6. Drob
7. Dream
8. Duncan
And the last two round out my top ten and are also very hard for me to decide who Id rather have.
9.KG
10. Durant
Then after that I would go with these three wings who are pretty interchangeable
11.Tmac
12.Wade
13.Kobe
Then here is where I would put a big group who I think could all be mixed in order
14.Oscar
15.Magic
16.Bird
17.K.Malone
18.Barkley
19.M.Malone
20.CP3
21.Dirk
22.Dr. J
23.Elgin
Then I have these three guys in any order.
24.Iverson
25.Ewing
26.Pippen
Then my next tier in any order would be
27.Payton
28.Isaiah
29.Stockton
30.Nash
Honorable mentions that I really like who I think could of jumped into this conversation if they would of done something a little different are Amare, Vince,Dominique, Tim Hardaway, Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill. I actually like all these guys better than my bottom 3 guys. I think they had it in them to be better, but either injury or mentality just prevented it from happening.

Of guys playing now I think Blake, and Anthony Davis may have what it takes to get into this list. Maybe Melo but I just don't like his black hole mentality but I like him at a talent.

Hard for me to rank the Pettit's, and West's of the world because I think they would get annihilated by today's talent even though I acknowledge they were good in there time.

lol @cp3 over dirk

conway429
10-30-2014, 11:09 AM
the goal is to win a ring in one year and you have T-mac #11 ?

...and ahead of kobe ?

c.c.
10-30-2014, 11:46 AM
the goal is to win a ring in one year and you have T-mac #11 ?

...and ahead of kobe ?

The guy title do say "personal top 25-30 player." "PERSONAL"

pebloemer
10-30-2014, 12:51 PM
I might be blind, but no Russell in your Top 30?

PurpleLynch
10-30-2014, 01:02 PM
I might be blind, but no Russell in your Top 30?

"Hard for me to rank the Pettit's, and West's of the world because I think they would get annihilated by today's talent even though I acknowledge they were good in there time." While it's wrong imo,that explains why he didn't put Russell maybe.

IKnowHoops
10-30-2014, 01:03 PM
the goal is to win a ring in one year and you have T-mac #11 ?

...and ahead of kobe ?

I got more of a tier system going, and I say that Kobe, Tmac, and Wade are all interchangeable and depending on how Im feeling could be in any order.

pebloemer
10-30-2014, 01:06 PM
"Hard for me to rank the Pettit's, and West's of the world because I think they would get annihilated by today's talent even though I acknowledge they were good in there time." While it's wrong imo,that explains why he didn't put Russell maybe.

Yah, I read that, but then how does he throw a guy like Chamberlain in the Top 5? I'm wondering if it is just an oversight.

Hawkeye15
10-30-2014, 01:06 PM
Tier 1:

Jordan

Tier 2:

Wilt
Kareem

Tier 3:

Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Magic

Tier 4:

LeBron
Bird
Kobe
Russell

That is about as far as I feel like going. Basically, amongst tiers, I don't care who you rank where, they just shouldn't move up or down out of a tier, or I figure it's worth a debate at that point.

IKnowHoops
10-30-2014, 01:07 PM
I might be blind, but no Russell in your Top 30?

Yeah, ya know, I understand that everyone has Russell in there top 10, but I just feel he is on Rodman, Ben Wallace level playing in a time where basketball just wasn't that good. I respect him as an all-time great, and if we are talking all-time careers and regardless of era, he would be in my top 5, but Im not a fan a ranking players off that criteria. I like to rank players as if you take them all at there best and then throw them all on the court together today, and ask who would cement themselves as the best on the court.

pebloemer
10-30-2014, 01:09 PM
Yeah, ya know, I understand that everyone has Russell in there top 10, but I just feel he is on Rodman, Ben Wallace level playing in a time where basketball just wasn't that good. I respect him as an all-time great, and if we are talking all-time careers and regardless of era, he would be in my top 5, but Im not a fan a ranking players off that criteria. I like to rank players as if you take them all at there best and then throw them all on the court together today, and ask who would cement themselves as the best on the court.

Not how I would put it, but I appreciate the explanation.

YAALREADYKNO
10-30-2014, 01:13 PM
Yeah, ya know, I understand that everyone has Russell in there top 10, but I just feel he is on Rodman, Ben Wallace level playing in a time where basketball just wasn't that good. I respect him as an all-time great, and if we are talking all-time careers and regardless of era, he would be in my top 5, but Im not a fan a ranking players off that criteria. I like to rank players as if you take them all at there best and then throw them all on the court together today, and ask who would cement themselves as the best on the court.


you cant underestimate 11 championships but I'd take shaq kareem wilt and hakeem before Russell too

IKnowHoops
10-30-2014, 02:02 PM
Yah, I read that, but then how does he throw a guy like Chamberlain in the Top 5? I'm wondering if it is just an oversight.

Wilts dominance of averaging 50/25 and the film tells me he would be a 28-32 pt a game scorer and a 13-17 reb guy a game.

Bill Russell's 15/25 plus film tell me he is roughly a 10/15 guy. Basically Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman.

Bill would of been a good defensive PF though so I don't want to ignore that, but no way do I take him over someone like Anthony Davis who I think would be superior to him in all things.

IKnowHoops
10-30-2014, 02:04 PM
you cant underestimate 11 championships but I'd take shaq kareem wilt and hakeem before Russell too

I'd take Drob, and Ewing over Russell too. But yes you can't discount the rings and thats why career I'd have him in my top 5. But...wasnt he playing in like an 8 team league? And his team was stacked with all the talent.

Chronz
10-30-2014, 02:55 PM
Hard for me to rank the Pettit's, and West's of the world because I think they would get annihilated by today's talent even though I acknowledge they were good in there time.
Thats probably the dumbest thing I've ever read. Big O made the cut but his primary rival doesnt? Bill being compared to Ben Wallace/Rodman without mentioning his passing game is foolish.

IKnowHoops
10-30-2014, 03:09 PM
Thats probably the dumbest thing I've ever read. Big O made the cut but his primary rival doesnt? Bill being compared to Ben Wallace/Rodman without mentioning his passing game is foolish.

Kareem said Big O was better than Jordan in his eyes. West had the game of Jimmer Fredette. Reggie Miller, Latrell Sprewell, and Mitch Richmond were all jordan's biggest Rivals, none of which are in my top 30 either. If you can't understand why I don't have a 6 foot SG from the 60's not in my top 30 even though I have the only guy to record a triple double for a season in there, I can't really do much for you.

Hawkeye15
10-30-2014, 03:26 PM
Kareem said Big O was better than Jordan in his eyes. West had the game of Jimmer Fredette. Reggie Miller, Latrell Sprewell, and Mitch Richmond were all jordan's biggest Rivals, none of which are in my top 30 either. If you can't understand why I don't have a 6 foot SG from the 60's not in my top 30 even though I have the only guy to record a triple double for a season in there, I can't really do much for you.

whaaaaaaat?

IKnowHoops
10-30-2014, 03:37 PM
whaaaaaaat?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av-GUf5njCA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OgKn8VGHas

On second thought Jimmer was better.

IKnowHoops
10-30-2014, 03:39 PM
Just to be a nice guy. There is nothing that Jerry West can do better than Steph Curry. And Steph isn't in my top 30 either.

YAALREADYKNO
10-30-2014, 04:29 PM
I'd take Drob, and Ewing over Russell too. But yes you can't discount the rings and thats why career I'd have him in my top 5. But...wasnt he playing in like an 8 team league? And his team was stacked with all the talent.

ehhh don't know about drob and ewing them dudes didn't do much in the playoffs

Chronz
10-30-2014, 04:31 PM
Kareem said Big O was better than Jordan in his eyes.
Point? Jerry West was his contemporary and chief rival, these 2 were so comparable during their playing days that nobody really felt comfortable putting one over the other, especially with West outlasting / outproducing him towards the end. Yet some how they aren't comparable years later? This despite West actually having a game that would benefit from today's rules.


West had the game of Jimmer Fredette.
Based on what?


Reggie Miller, Latrell Sprewell, and Mitch Richmond were all jordan's biggest Rivals, none of which are in my top 30 either.
None of which ever approximated MJ's level of play or production, thus the consensus was clear. There was no such distinction in my comparison.... TRY HARDER.


If you can't understand why I don't have a 6 foot SG from the 60's not in my top 30 even though I have the only guy to record a triple double for a season in there, I can't really do much for you.
Thats because you have nothing to stand on. You drastically misrepresent how tall West was. I do have to give you props for one thing tho, I didn't think you could top the ignorance behind your initial statement, but seeing you try to defend it is ****ing hilarious.

Chronz
10-30-2014, 04:32 PM
just to be a nice guy. There is nothing that jerry west can do better than steph curry. And steph isn't in my top 30 either.

lmfao.....

IKnowHoops
10-30-2014, 04:56 PM
=Chronz;29198327]Point? Jerry West was his contemporary and chief rival, these 2 were so comparable during their playing days that nobody really felt comfortable putting one over the other, especially with West outlasting / outproducing him towards the end. Yet some how they aren't comparable years later? This despite West actually having a game that would benefit from today's rules.

It would help you to read. This is based off peak. This has literally no place in what I am talking about. Your whole point doesn't even matter. You entered the wrong thread to give an opinion based on a stance that Im not even taking. No there peaks aren't comparable...unless i missed the point in Jerry West's career where he averaged 30/12/11



Based on what?
Really?
You see know similarities?
Resorting to playing stupid...I realize thats apart of your passive aggressive nature but...ok fine
The strongest part of both there games is that they have great range, and need very little space to get there shot off. They both drive to the hoop based off the defense trying to stop them from outside, but for the most part, they are both great shooters who will shoot shoot and keep shooting, from anywhere on the court when they get a look. Jimmer had a better handle, was quicker, and had more range, which made him better at the strongest part of both there games.




None of which ever approximated MJ's level of play or production, thus the consensus was clear. There was no such distinction in my comparison.... TRY HARDER.


30/5/8 does not approximate the level of production of 30/12/11. I do not need to try any hard because the numbers are plain as day.



Thats because you have nothing to stand on. You drastically misrepresent how tall West was. I do have to give you props for one thing tho, I didn't think you could top the [B]ignorance behind your initial statement, but seeing you try to defend it is ****ing hilarious.[/QUOTE]

OK West was 6-2. Did everything change based off that. Secondly, you speak of my ignorance while you bring up how players faired towards the end of there career in an argument about Peak. My level of ignorance pales in comparison to your inability to read, and comprehend what is being talked about. I suggest you stop loosing your ish after reading one post, and do a little recon before wasting your time creating arguments that aren't there.

IKnowHoops
10-30-2014, 04:57 PM
lmfao.....


Please enlighten me on what part of West's game is stronger than Steph's.

IKnowHoops
10-30-2014, 05:20 PM
[QUOTE=Chronz;29198327]Point? Jerry West was his contemporary and chief rival, these 2 were so comparable during their playing days that nobody really felt comfortable putting one over the other, especially with West outlasting / outproducing him towards the end. Yet some how they aren't comparable years later? This despite West actually having a game that would benefit from today's rules.

The fact that you think this lets me know your perception vs reality is monumentally off. Unless every player in todays game lost 3 steps, got 5 inches shorter and stopped using both hands to dribble, his game would have little chance of survival based on the fact he would be a geo metro playing against Ferrari's. Do you not think athletic ability has anything to do with the game of basketball? Its the main reason a guys college game doesn't translate to the NBA. And 60's basketball is a lot less athletic than the college game of 2014. Jerry is getting abused by most 2 guards in the game today.

jerellh528
10-30-2014, 05:25 PM
1. Mj
2. Kaj
3. Wilt
4 kobe
5. Shaq
6. Duncan
7. Magic
8. Bird
9. Hakeem
10. Russell
11. Lebron
Anything past that and it's like splitting hairs to me and more personal preference

Chronz
10-30-2014, 05:39 PM
Please enlighten me on what part of West's game is stronger than Steph's.
Ever heard of this thing they call defense? And skill sets dont equate to impact so the part that is stronger is the part that allows West to win at a higher level.


It would help you to read. This is based off peak. This has literally no place in what I am talking about. Your whole point doesn't even matter. You entered the wrong thread to give an opinion based on a stance that Im not even taking. No there peaks aren't comparable...unless i missed the point in Jerry West's career where he averaged 30/12/11
OK but what makes you think that was Oscar's peak? And sorry but you cant dismiss my entire point so easily, this Peak argument wouldn't change the fact that they were neck and neck for many years and were definitely comparable, given that Big O wasn't a drastically different player throughout his prime years, you're not explaining how they all of sudden aren't comparable years later. West had a few years where hes on par with Big O, their statistics aren't far off and West was without a doubt the superior defender.



Really?
You see know similarities?
Resorting to playing stupid...I realize thats apart of your passive aggressive nature but...ok fine
The strongest part of both there games is that they have great range, and need very little space to get there shot off. They both drive to the hoop based off the defense trying to stop them from outside, but for the most part, they are both great shooters who will shoot shoot and keep shooting, from anywhere on the court when they get a look. Jimmer had a better handle, was quicker, and had more range, which made him better at the strongest part of both there games.
Sounds idiotically simplistic, Jimmer doesn't drive and wasn't the interior player that West was, you could basically spew everything you've just said to compare West to any generic shooter. This faulty logic ignores the superior vision+rebounding that West displayed, the versatility to play/defend any back court spot, the superior length and defensive tenacity. The differences in how players are allowed to handle the ball had led to different fundamentals being preached, I dont punish players for stylistic differences that way, those are byproducts of the changing of the game. All in all, it was a very idiotic comparison.



30/5/8 does not approximate the level of production of 30/12/11. I do not need to try any hard because the numbers are plain as day.
LMFAO. Compare the numbers Reggie/Mitch put up vs MJ and then look at the comparison I posted. Then consider the fact that you are using per game averages instead of looking at the entire statistical profile. After that, consider the fact that West was the superior defender/clutch performer. Feeling educated yet?



OK West was 6-2.
In College by 60's methodologies. He was 6"3 barefoot and 6"4 in shoes. In todays NBA he'd be listed at 6"5 or so.


Did everything change based off that. Secondly, you speak of my ignorance while you bring up how players faired towards the end of there career in an argument about Peak. My level of ignorance pales in comparison to your inability to read, and comprehend what is being talked about. I suggest you stop loosing your ish after reading one post, and do a little recon before wasting your time creating arguments that aren't there.
Ill admit I didn't bother to read your post, just skimmed through the horeshit you spewed. And sorry but even going back to read your post, my argument required little to no amendments. Yours on the other hand is still astoundingly dumb. You couldn't even locate Big O's greatest season in your own thread so spare me the insults. At least I had the excuse that I didn't care to read all of your BS, its FAR worse to be defending the BS.

Nice how you ignored the Bill Russell comps tho.

Chronz
10-30-2014, 05:43 PM
[QUOTE]

The fact that you think this lets me know your perception vs reality is monumentally off. Unless every player in todays game lost 3 steps, got 5 inches shorter and stopped using both hands to dribble, his game would have little chance of survival based on the fact he would be a geo metro playing against Ferrari's. Do you not think athletic ability has anything to do with the game of basketball? Its the main reason a guys college game doesn't translate to the NBA. And 60's basketball is a lot less athletic than the college game of 2014. Jerry is getting abused by most 2 guards in the game today.

Coming from the guy who doesn't even know something as minuscule as how players were measured over the years, why would I care about your ignorant translations? Your comparisons have been laughable and exaggerated.

Chronz
10-30-2014, 06:16 PM
Its funny how you can be off by a few inches on West's height and say its not a big deal, but then in another argument act like the league's advancement in that area is significant enough to mention. West was basically between Wade/Kobe's height, not sure which them has a longer wingspan but it wouldn't surprise me if it was West.

Chronz
10-30-2014, 06:21 PM
whaaaaaaat?
Explain to me how West could hold his own in a matchup against Oscar, yet in a matchup vs today's crop of 2-guards , hes getting "abused". It makes no logical sense unless you evenly DQ every era you dont know jack about. If Oscar makes the cut, then so too does the guy with the superior jumper/defense in todays NBA.

PurpleLynch
10-30-2014, 06:51 PM
Kareem said Big O was better than Jordan in his eyes. West had the game of Jimmer Fredette. Reggie Miller, Latrell Sprewell, and Mitch Richmond were all jordan's biggest Rivals, none of which are in my top 30 either. If you can't understand why I don't have a 6 foot SG from the 60's not in my top 30 even though I have the only guy to record a triple double for a season in there, I can't really do much for you.

Oh my goodness. Anyone,please,anyone tell me that what I read was just trolling...

Sorry,but you are way off. Seriously. West is considered one of the best SG and also PG(yes,a lot of people consider him a top 5 point guard of all time) for his skills on both ends.
You can't even compare Fredette to West. It's just surreal.
He's better than Curry for sure.
And if Wilt and Big O(Both playing in the '60-'70) make the top 30 based on their peak,West has to be in too.

IKnowHoops
10-30-2014, 06:54 PM
[QUOTE=Chronz;29198539]Ever heard of this thing they call defense? And skill sets dont equate to impact so the part that is stronger is the part that allows West to win at a higher level.

Huh west played in the 60's, Steph plays now. West never played at a higher lower, in fact he played at amuck lower level. You calling west winning in an era of one handed dribbling a higher level is asinine.



OK but what makes you think that was Oscar's peak? And sorry but you cant dismiss my entire point so easily, this Peak argument wouldn't change the fact that they were neck and neck for many years and were definitely comparable, given that Big O wasn't a drastically different player throughout his prime years, you're not explaining how they all of sudden aren't comparable years later. West had a few years where hes on par with Big O, their statistics aren't far off and West was without a doubt the superior defender.

Brons statistics are closer to Kobe's yet you have said many times there is a huge difference. I have agreed with you on this. Clyde and Jordan went at it. Isaiah and Magic went at it. Iverson and Kobe went at it Doesn't mean that they are close when comparing every player who ever played. Just because one guy is in the top 10 and one guy is in the top 75, doesn't mean that when they get on the court, the battles won't be close. And the Peak argument is the basis of my list, so even though they battled, when you compare the two players best seasons, there is a huge difference.




Sounds idiotically simplistic, Jimmer doesn't drive and wasn't the interior player that West was, you could basically spew everything you've just said to compare West to any generic shooter. This faulty logic ignores the superior vision+rebounding that West displayed, the versatility to play/defend any back court spot, the superior length and defensive tenacity. The differences in how players are allowed to handle the ball had led to different fundamentals being preached, I dont punish players for stylistic differences that way, those are byproducts of the changing of the game. All in all, it was a very idiotic comparison.


Why would I even go on if you start off with this load of BS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OgKn8VGHas




LMFAO. Compare the numbers Reggie/Mitch put up vs MJ and then look at the comparison I posted. Then consider the fact that you are using per game averages instead of looking at the entire statistical profile. After that, consider the fact that West was the superior defender/clutch performer. Feeling educated yet?[/B]

After your Jimmer statement, I feel a loss of intelligence. If I keep listening I may become a caveman.
West used one hand to dribble!!!!!!!!!! Can you get this through that thick cocky skull of yours One hand!!!!!! He's nothing!!!!



In College by 60's methodologies. He was 6"3 barefoot and 6"4 in shoes. In todays NBA he'd be listed at 6"5 or so. [/B]
NO, He was definitely shorter than Oscar Robertson.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRii8d-jCMI
This was just a pathetic attempt by yourself. 6'5" seriously. Why are we even going at this anymore.


Ill admit I didn't bother to read your post, just skimmed through the horeshit you spewed. And sorry but even going back to read your post, my argument required little to no amendments. Yours on the other hand is still astoundingly dumb. You couldn't even locate Big O's greatest season in your own thread so spare me the insults. At least I had the excuse that I didn't care to read all of your BS, its FAR worse to be defending the BS.

"Jimmer doesn't drive" "West would be 6'5" in todays NBA" No I think your strongest in this.


Nice how you ignored the Bill Russell comps tho.

Why should I even respond. Your being ridiculous right now. You tell me tp spare you the insults yet you start off by saying what I said was the dumbest thing you have ever heard. Your being a hypocritical punk. Why would I continue, why would I care to answer you when you aren't even on point her. Yes bill Russell was a good passing big man. Great, he also played in an 8 team league. I apologize if that doesn't catapult him to my top ten. Sorry Im not blown away by his passing. I don't care that he could pass because Vlade Divac isn't up in my top ten either. Him being able to pass isn't putting him on my list. If you talked like a human being istead of a prick maybe I would of thought to answer Bill, but because your your saying things like "Jimmer doesn't drive" and "West won at a higher level than Steph" though its 60's b-ball and "West would be 6'5" in the current NBA" I can't take you seriously at all.

IKnowHoops
10-30-2014, 07:11 PM
Its funny how you can be off by a few inches on West's height and say its not a big deal, but then in another argument act like the league's advancement in that area is significant enough to mention. West was basically between Wade/Kobe's height, not sure which them has a longer wingspan but it wouldn't surprise me if it was West.

Find one listing of him over 6'2". Cause I can find 5 places that list him at 6'2". Pardon me if I take them all over your word.

IKnowHoops
10-30-2014, 07:12 PM
Oh my goodness. Anyone,please,anyone tell me that what I read was just trolling...

Sorry,but you are way off. Seriously. West is considered one of the best SG and also PG(yes,a lot of people consider him a top 5 point guard of all time) for his skills on both ends.
You can't even compare Fredette to West. It's just surreal.
He's better than Curry for sure.
And if Wilt and Big O(Both playing in the '60-'70) make the top 30 based on their peak,West has to be in too.

You realize that he dribbled with one hand right?

IKnowHoops
10-30-2014, 07:20 PM
[QUOTE=IKnowHoops;29198475]

Coming from the guy who doesn't even know something as minuscule as how players were measured over the years, why would I care about your ignorant translations? Your comparisons have been laughable and exaggerated.

Lets go straight to the horses mouth.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0612/nba_g_west_bryant1_sw_200.jpg

I know guys shrink, but If West is 6'5, then Kobe is 6'9".
But if Kobe is 6'6" then...

PurpleLynch
10-30-2014, 07:26 PM
You realize that he dribbled with one hand right?

Yeah and he also averaged 2.6 steals in his final season of his magnificent career. So what? You can't point a weakness and tell me that he got Fredette's game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEzwR1a8KuA

Maybe this video can help you to understand how he was so unpredictable as a player even if he had average ball handling skills(but his pull up jumper switching hands was ****ing lethal).

tredigs
10-30-2014, 07:28 PM
Lets go straight to the horses mouth.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0612/nba_g_west_bryant1_sw_200.jpg

I know guys shrink, but If West is 6'5, then Kobe is 6'9".
But if Kobe is 6'6" then...

Here's a clearer photo for you. That seem like he's got 4 inches on West? And this is a ~75 year old shrunken West.

http://www.photofile.com/SportsProducts/Photos/aanv151.jpg

Jamiecballer
10-30-2014, 07:29 PM
Can you guys learn to quote please

Hawkeye15
10-30-2014, 07:34 PM
Explain to me how West could hold his own in a matchup against Oscar, yet in a matchup vs today's crop of 2-guards , hes getting "abused". It makes no logical sense unless you evenly DQ every era you dont know jack about. If Oscar makes the cut, then so too does the guy with the superior jumper/defense in todays NBA.

Oh I have West in my top 15 without even a thought. I don't understand his reasoning, at all. Like, none.

Hawkeye15
10-30-2014, 07:35 PM
Find one listing of him over 6'2". Cause I can find 5 places that list him at 6'2". Pardon me if I take them all over your word.

I have seen West up close. He is 6'5" as an old man.

tredigs
10-30-2014, 07:37 PM
Yeah I don't know why it did that. Edited.

Regardless, the base of your argument is absurd, hoops.

abe_froman
10-30-2014, 07:38 PM
Find one listing of him over 6'2". Cause I can find 5 places that list him at 6'2". Pardon me if I take them all over your word.
players heights were rounded down and done in bare feet until about the mid-late 70's.if given how measurements are done today you can add about another 2 inches on players,west is about 6'5.

IKnowHoops
10-31-2014, 12:44 AM
When I google or b-ball reference they both say 1.88 meters (6'2") Forgive me if I believed it. So the fact that I believed he was a 6'2" shooting guard who dribbles with one hand lead me to believe that he would stand little chance against the 6-4 to 6-7 shooting guards of today who have crazy ball handles and even crazier athletic ability. I actually think it would be very hard for him to advance the ball with a one handed dribble.

As far as his 2.6 steal a game goes. Iverson got a ton of steal too, but nobody accuses Iverson of being a great defender. I'd also think it would be so much easier to steal the ball back then because it was an era of one handed dribbling.

But if dude is 6'5" and not 6'2" and is indeed taller than Wade, then I would give him a much better chance of playing against today's guys. He'd still have a great shot, but guys who had his body type and athletic ability (Hornacek, Thunder Dan, etc), they had much better dribbling skills.

Do you really think this guy gets penetration into the lane and finishes with one handed dribbling in today's game?

So again if the guy is 6'5" and has the great b-ball IQ he'd be better on defense than if he was 6'2 and I would resend the get destroyed by todays guys. But there are guys that outplayed Duncan from time to time like Webber and Rasheed,(who in todays game I would take over west) that are nowhere close to Duncans overall rank.

West was an awesome player back then, I just don't think he would be able to come close to dominating if he played in todays game. I don't think he is leading any team to a ring in todays game. I do think Wilt could. 50/25 are stupid domination stats. I think 30/12/11 are stupid domination stats. But sometimes games don't translate.

A great example of this would be College to Pro. Christian Laettner out dueled Webber, Mashburn, and Larry Johnson in college. Using your logic, he should be as good as those guys in the pros right? Wrong.

I don't just look at the stats...I look at the film, and the 60's to the 2015 is a huge disparity in talent, and athletic ability. College to Pros is a huge disparity and I think its much smaller than the 60's NBA till now. At least college players dribble with both hands.

If you disagree fine. If you want to attack me for my opinions, than we can go at it.

IKnowHoops
10-31-2014, 01:07 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPdQ7EhCYa8

Oscar was proficient with both hands. Very strong...backed people down, could keep himself between the defender and the ball with physicality. Super high IQ which made him great at all facets of the game as displayed by averaging a triple double and multiple years of 28+/9+/9+.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av-GUf5njCA
He can shoot, but I just don't think he'd be athletic enough to be "great" in todays game. In todays game as a guard, you have to either be very fast and athletic or have great ball handling skills and preferably both. Being a great shooter won't get you very far if thats all you got. It won't make you great. If your a forward and your 6'9, 6'10 you have a much better shot at being good, but even still, a lack of supreme athletic ability will always hurt you, and if your ball handling is weak, and your not a great athlete, I can't see you having much success.

bgdreton
10-31-2014, 01:37 AM
Why do we continue to rate players based on athleticism when ranking all time greats? Training is much different, eating habits are different and us as the human race are getting stronger and faster all the time. If you were to try to rank all time great you would have to rank based on players within their particular era. But overall rankings outside of eras are always stupid. Yet it's sooo fun!

IKnowHoops
10-31-2014, 02:18 AM
Why do we continue to rate players based on athleticism when ranking all time greats? Training is much different, eating habits are different and us as the human race are getting stronger and faster all the time. If you were to try to rank all time great you would have to rank based on players within their particular era. But overall rankings outside of eras are always stupid. Yet it's sooo fun!

You know what, i agree, but then I played in the all time fantasy draft for PSD and Chris Webber was better than Mikan and Pettit even though on an era basis he was not. Don't really see the point of doing an all time draft if old school players aren't as good as the new school based on that athletic ability but whatever.

bgdreton
10-31-2014, 03:48 AM
Ya I don't necessarily mean that the rankings are solely based in athleticism but don't use that category against the old greats. For instance don't compare Shaq to Wilts athleticism directly but rather compare them to their current field of players within their era. What I mean is wilts athleticism compared to his peers is the same difference between Shaq and his... hope I'm making sense I just hate to see that always brought up as a knock on the all time greats bc it's unfair honestly. I get what ur saying tho...

Munkeysuit
10-31-2014, 05:10 AM
Shaquille Oneal
Lebron James
Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen
Shawn Kemp
Jason Kidd
Allen Iverson
Steve Nash
Blake Griffin
Ray Allen
Stephon Marbury
Jason Williams (White Chocolate)
Udonis Haslem
Stephen Curry
Chris Andersen
Dennis Rodman
Gary Payton
Mike Miller
Brandon Roy

PurpleLynch
10-31-2014, 07:45 AM
Why do we continue to rate players based on athleticism when ranking all time greats? Training is much different, eating habits are different and us as the human race are getting stronger and faster all the time. If you were to try to rank all time great you would have to rank based on players within their particular era. But overall rankings outside of eras are always stupid. Yet it's sooo fun!

I agree that athleticism must be out of the conversation,but not on the cause:we have to think that players back then didn't have all the technology on the medical field,on the traing field and on the nutritional field.So the comparison should consider this and think how a player from the past could be with modern techonology.
Hell,Chamberlain would probably be the first superhuman in our history based on athletical ability,considering all the advantages players got from this modern era.

YAALREADYKNO
10-31-2014, 10:41 AM
Oscar was the true definition of a stat sheet stuffer

Chronz
11-03-2014, 01:39 PM
Find one listing of him over 6'2". Cause I can find 5 places that list him at 6'2". Pardon me if I take them all over your word.
LOL, you should change your name to IKnowGoogle then. Heres something for you to Google. Olympic measurements. Lemme guess, you prolly think Russel was 6"9 huh LMFAO.



Huh west played in the 60's, Steph plays now. West never played at a higher lower, in fact he played at amuck lower level. You calling west winning in an era of one handed dribbling a higher level is asinine.
LMFAO, you have a contemporary from the SAME era as West ahead of Steph, so you're only exposing inconsistencies in your argument. Try HARDER.
Besides, nothing you said was true and stylistic changes (due to fundamental rule changes) have no barring on a players greatness.



Brons statistics are closer to Kobe's yet you have said many times there is a huge difference. I have agreed with you on this. Clyde and Jordan went at it. Isaiah and Magic went at it. Iverson and Kobe went at it Doesn't mean that they are close when comparing every player who ever played. Just because one guy is in the top 10 and one guy is in the top 75, doesn't mean that when they get on the court, the battles won't be close. And the Peak argument is the basis of my list, so even though they battled, when you compare the two players best seasons, there is a huge difference.
You're still not getting it, the difference in productive value between the 2 is still MUCH closer than any of the comparisons you have used. I applaud you for getting closer tho.




Why would I even go on if you start off with this load of BS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OgKn8VGHas
Was that suppose to prove something?


After your Jimmer statement, I feel a loss of intelligence. If I keep listening I may become a caveman.
West used one hand to dribble!!!!!!!!!! Can you get this through that thick cocky skull of yours One hand!!!!!! He's nothing!!!!
He had a dominant hand, big whoop. He also played in an era where you couldn't just carry the ball however you wish. I dont think you could stand to lose much more in the way of intelligence so I dont blame you if you wish to raise the white flag.




NO, He was definitely shorter than Oscar Robertson.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRii8d-jCMI
This was just a pathetic attempt by yourself. 6'5" seriously. Why are we even going at this anymore.
lmfao. Where did I say Oscar was shorter? Your confusion stems from you using raw/collegiate heights for Oscar and my translated measurements for West. By todays standards, Big O would be listed at 6"6, 6"7 max. Surprised you dont know this, guess thats the difference between true students of the game, and guys who think google knows all.





Why should I even respond. Your being ridiculous right now. You tell me tp spare you the insults yet you start off by saying what I said was the dumbest thing you have ever heard. Your being a hypocritical punk. Why would I continue, why would I care to answer you when you aren't even on point her. Yes bill Russell was a good passing big man. Great, he also played in an 8 team league. I apologize if that doesn't catapult him to my top ten. Sorry Im not blown away by his passing. I don't care that he could pass because Vlade Divac isn't up in my top ten either. Him being able to pass isn't putting him on my list. If you talked like a human being istead of a prick maybe I would of thought to answer Bill, but because your your saying things like "Jimmer doesn't drive" and "West won at a higher level than Steph" though its 60's b-ball and "West would be 6'5" in the current NBA" I can't take you seriously at all.
Notice how you have to resort to several strawmen arguments, I dont care where you put Russ in your top10, I've seen enough from you to know you dont jack about stats or the history of the game. All I was mocking was your comparison to Ben Wallace, sorry bro but passing is a pretty important part of the game, that you continuously ignore that in SEVERAL of your comparisons is why I dont take you seriously.

Chronz
11-03-2014, 01:43 PM
players heights were rounded down and done in bare feet until about the mid-late 70's.if given how measurements are done today you can add about another 2 inches on players,west is about 6'5.

I know I said only true students of the game know this but I honestly cant believe some one who tries to gauge history hasn't stumbled upon this fact simply by accident.

Bill Russel was a legit 6"10 and would be measured at 6"11 today, but he didn't want to be considered too freakish so he listed himself at 6"9. Similar to how KG never wanted to be known as a 7fter so he listed himself at 6"11.

Chronz
11-03-2014, 01:47 PM
Lets go straight to the horses mouth.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0612/nba_g_west_bryant1_sw_200.jpg

I know guys shrink, but If West is 6'5, then Kobe is 6'9".
But if Kobe is 6'6" then...
Straight from the horses mouth? 6"9? Man you're really bad with idiomatic expressions and your exaggerations are getting worse with every post.

TRY HARDER

Like so:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj9jbyUlsPU


THAT would be straight from the horses mouth.

Chronz
11-03-2014, 01:56 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPdQ7EhCYa8

Oscar was proficient with both hands. Very strong...backed people down, could keep himself between the defender and the ball with physicality. Super high IQ which made him great at all facets of the game as displayed by averaging a triple double and multiple years of 28+/9+/9+.
Today's game emphasizes spacing and freedom of movement, West was both quicker and a better shooter, he also endured significantly more injuries throughout his career. He was also a MUCH smarter defender. Why aren't you punishing Oscar for having a game dependent on athletic ability (against inferior athletes) that doesn't translate as well if all you are doing is time traveling players from the past to today. Seems unfair because there are players whos games would struggle due to the increased physicality of yesteryear.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av-GUf5njCA
He can shoot, but I just don't think he'd be athletic enough to be "great" in todays game. In todays game as a guard, you have to either be very fast and athletic or have great ball handling skills and preferably both. Being a great shooter won't get you very far if thats all you got. It won't make you great. If your a forward and your 6'9, 6'10 you have a much better shot at being good, but even still, a lack of supreme athletic ability will always hurt you, and if your ball handling is weak, and your not a great athlete, I can't see you having much success.
Hes definitely athletic enough and MORE than competent in terms of intelligence, and I see no sort of objective analysis in your translations, just a bunch of BS opinions from someone whos already proven to know absolutely nothing of the old NBA.

Cmon bro, you dont even know something as minuscule as not trusting raw measurements. You cant even identify Oscar's peak season with your own hallow reasoning. You have utterly failed with ur list.

Chronz
11-03-2014, 02:11 PM
When I google or b-ball reference they both say 1.88 meters (6'2") Forgive me if I believed it.
The only reason anyone should forgive you is if you admit your own limitations. You have very little to base your rankings, that much is clear. Its ok tho, just lose the false sense of conviction in your posts and people are more than willing to educate you properly.


So the fact that I believed he was a 6'2" shooting guard who dribbles with one hand lead me to believe that he would stand little chance against the 6-4 to 6-7 shooting guards of today who have crazy ball handles and even crazier athletic ability. I actually think it would be very hard for him to advance the ball with a one handed dribble.
He wouldn't dribble in the same fashion today, with today's lax ball handling rules, lack of handchecking and overall physicality would enhance his ball handling. You throw in modern advances in training+equipment/courts etc... and you have yourself an improved player as well.


As far as his 2.6 steal a game goes. Iverson got a ton of steal too, but nobody accuses Iverson of being a great defender. I'd also think it would be so much easier to steal the ball back then because it was an era of one handed dribbling.
Thats because AI gambled incessantly. And it honestly had more to do with possessions but West was an old man when we finally got to see his tallies so you pointing to that is still selling him short. Young West was far more dynamic. If you anything about which stats GM's associate with athletic ability when translating stats to the NBA, you'd know why doubting West is foolish.


But if dude is 6'5" and not 6'2" and is indeed taller than Wade, then I would give him a much better chance of playing against today's guys. He'd still have a great shot, but guys who had his body type and athletic ability (Hornacek, Thunder Dan, etc), they had much better dribbling skills.
Even if I believed you, they had an inferior understanding of how to create their own shot and how to create for others. In the case of Hornacek, he was a far better defender. In the case of Dan, he was a far better playmaker.




West was an awesome player back then, I just don't think he would be able to come close to dominating if he played in todays game. I don't think he is leading any team to a ring in todays game. I do think Wilt could. 50/25 are stupid domination stats. I think 30/12/11 are stupid domination stats. But sometimes games don't translate.

No they are stupid/shallow interpretations of statistical dominance and how they would translate across the eras.


A great example of this would be College to Pro. Christian Laettner out dueled Webber, Mashburn, and Larry Johnson in college. Using your logic, he should be as good as those guys in the pros right? Wrong.
Nobody cares about College and you trying to compare West's era to that only further hurts your credibility.


I don't just look at the stats...I look at the film, and the 60's to the 2015 is a huge disparity in talent, and athletic ability. College to Pros is a huge disparity and I think its much smaller than the 60's NBA till now. At least college players dribble with both hands.

If you disagree fine. If you want to attack me for my opinions, than we can go at it.
LOL. We can do more than attack your opinions, we've (successfully) attacked the facts you tried to cite in defense of your shallow opinion. Its clear you definitely only look at a few sources + limited film. You provide nothing in the way of objective/statistical evidence, tho you do attempt to hide behind a false understanding of them, its clear as day you dont really know what you're looking at, I havent said anything because for the most part, you've been respectful in your debates. This is a whole other level of ignorance for you.

IKnowGoogle was giving you too much credit.

Chronz
11-03-2014, 02:15 PM
IKnowBBALLREFERENCE

Is that still available?

Shlumpledink
11-03-2014, 02:32 PM
I have just checked the annals of time from almighty Buddha himself and collected the definitive top 25 list

1 Jordan
2 Kareem
3 Hakeem
4 Wilt
5 Shaq
6 Magic
7 Kobe
8 Duncan
9 Lebron (Buddha doesn't like people changing allegiances all the time)
10 Bird
11 David Robinson
12 Payton
13 Elgin Baylor
14 Dr J
15 Stockton
16 Oscar Robertson
17 KG
18 Jerry West
19 Moses Malone
20 Dirk Nowitzki
21 Karl Malone
22 Scottie Pippen
23 CP3
24 Dwyane Wade
25 Bill Russel

Chronz
11-03-2014, 02:44 PM
I have just checked the annals of time from almighty Buddha himself and collected the definitive top 25 list

1 Jordan
2 Kareem
3 Hakeem
4 Wilt
5 Shaq
6 Magic
7 Kobe
8 Duncan
9 Lebron (Buddha doesn't like people changing allegiances all the time)
10 Bird
11 David Robinson
12 Payton
13 Elgin Baylor
14 Dr J
15 Stockton
16 Oscar Robertson
17 KG
18 Jerry West
19 Moses Malone
20 Dirk Nowitzki
21 Karl Malone
22 Scottie Pippen
23 CP3
24 Dwyane Wade
25 Bill Russel

Buddha is fine with changing of allegiances as #2, #4, #5. And is ok with players threatening not to return/join if they didn't get what they wanted in #6 and #7

Not a bad list tho

YAALREADYKNO
11-03-2014, 04:09 PM
I have just checked the annals of time from almighty Buddha himself and collected the definitive top 25 list

1 Jordan
2 Kareem
3 Hakeem
4 Wilt
5 Shaq
6 Magic
7 Kobe
8 Duncan
9 Lebron (Buddha doesn't like people changing allegiances all the time)
10 Bird
11 David Robinson
12 Payton
13 Elgin Baylor
14 Dr J
15 Stockton
16 Oscar Robertson
17 KG
18 Jerry West
19 Moses Malone
20 Dirk Nowitzki
21 Karl Malone
22 Scottie Pippen
23 CP3
24 Dwyane Wade
25 Bill Russel

Not a bad list but Dirk should be higher than Stockton Robertson KG Payton Robinson Baylor and Payton. Russell should be higher too just because of his 11 championships. West and Moses Malone deserve to be higher too

Shlumpledink
11-03-2014, 04:36 PM
Buddha is fine with changing of allegiances as #2, #4, #5. And is ok with players threatening not to return/join if they didn't get what they wanted in #6 and #7

Not a bad list tho

Buddha don't care about all that. Even Jordan went to a new team, even went to a new sport for a few years, but Buddha forgives. Shaq is the only one other than Lebron who played for more than two teams but he was traded and did the veteran bigman shuffle into his twilight. How many star players play for multiple teams in their prime? These are all through free agency too, Buddha weeps for Lebron because it is he who needs the most help to find nirvana

IKnowHoops
11-03-2014, 05:23 PM
Not a bad list but Dirk should be higher than Stockton Robertson KG [/B]Payton Robinson Baylor and Payton. Russell should be higher too just because of his 11 championships. West and Moses Malone deserve to be higher too

No way

Jeffy25
11-03-2014, 05:29 PM
Tier 1:

Jordan

Tier 2:

Wilt
Kareem

Tier 3:

Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Magic

Tier 4:

LeBron
Bird
Kobe
Russell

That is about as far as I feel like going. Basically, amongst tiers, I don't care who you rank where, they just shouldn't move up or down out of a tier, or I figure it's worth a debate at that point.

Where do you put Barkley and Malone?

IKnowHoops
11-03-2014, 05:39 PM
Straight from the horses mouth? 6"9? Man you're really bad with idiomatic expressions and your exaggerations are getting worse with every post.

TRY HARDER

Like so:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj9jbyUlsPU


THAT would be straight from the horses mouth.

1. This would be the first thing you have shown me that is not your opinion.

2. I don't think West was quicker than Oscar

3. Name a 6 foot 4 player with zero ball handling ability who is productive in todays NBA

4.Oscars Prime envolved many years. If he averaged a triple double outside of his prime, and West never cam close in his prime, how does that hurt my argument?

5. Just because two players were competitive 50 years ago doesn't mean both of there games would translate or that they would have similar success now. Thats stupid.

6. And yes college does matter because thats your resume to get into the NBA, and just because two guys compete evenly there, doesn't mean they will compete evenly in the NBA. You cannot assume that from 50 years ago either.

7. In what way is 50's basketball a better indicator than 2014 college? To think that old game with those old players is a better indicator of how they would fair against current NBA talent than 2015 college b-ball makes zero sense.

Buckwheat
11-03-2014, 05:44 PM
1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabaar
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Magic Johnson
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Larry Bird
9. Tim Duncan
10. Kobe Bryant

Chronz
11-03-2014, 05:55 PM
1. This would be the first thing you have shown me that is not your opinion.

Only because you've yet to accept the truth about NBA history. Its why we have to correct you on your "Facts" and laugh at your opinions.


2. I don't think West was quicker than Oscar
LOL... lemme break this down for you one more time.
You didn't even know how tall West was, and thats a static number thats been measured/referenced from numerous sources over the decades. What makes you think anyone should care about how you interpret their speed? We've already seen you fail at comparing still shots and you think you can handle movement?


3. Name a 6 foot 4 player with zero ball handling ability who is productive in todays NBA
Gimme a reason why I should care about your comparisons? They've been pitiful every single time. You're exaggerated breakdowns mean even less to me.


4.Oscars Prime envolved many years. If he averaged a triple double outside of his prime, and West never cam close in his prime, how does that hurt my argument?

Variance in statistical profiles between my comparisons and your laughable comps are what hurt your argument. That the numbers get smaller by contextualizing them compound your ignorance.


5. Just because two players were competitive 50 years ago doesn't mean both of there games would translate or that they would have similar success now. Thats stupid.
Never said they would equally translate, in fact, if you read the post you can clearly see why I feel Oscar's game would translate less (in comparison to West) to today, I also point out the irrelevance of the distinction.


6. And yes college does matter because thats your resume to get into the NBA, and just because two guys compete evenly there, doesn't mean they will compete evenly in the NBA. You cannot assume that from 50 years ago either.
It literally means nothing. How they actually compete in the NBA is what matters.


7. In what way is 50's basketball a better indicator than 2014 college? To think that old game with those old players is a better indicator of how they would fair against current NBA talent than 2015 college b-ball makes zero sense.
Whos talking about the 50's? Why is your argument all over the place? Why must we correct you on your unsubstantiated facts? Answer those questions before we get to the mess that is your opinion.

Hawkeye15
11-03-2014, 05:59 PM
Where do you put Barkley and Malone?

Barkley is in my 5th tier, with D-Rob, West, Oscar, and Dr. J

Malone after that tier for me.

IKnowHoops
11-03-2014, 06:07 PM
=Chronz;29215415]Only because you've yet to accept the truth about NBA history. Its why we have to correct you on your "Facts" and laugh at your opinions.

Speak for yourself coward. We is such a pathetic thing to say.



LOL... lemme break this down for you one more time.
You didn't even know how tall West was, and thats a static number thats been measured/referenced from numerous sources over the decades. What makes you think anyone should care about how you interpret their speed?

So something that is not written anywhere somehow tell you how I breakdown footage. Please dude. Skate skate.



Gimme a reason why I should care about your comparisons? They've been pitiful every single time. You're exaggerated breakdowns mean even less to me.

My comparisons???? I asked you a questions. Answer it or go back to your hole... You love to dismiss things you can't answer. Skate skate skate.



Variance in statistical profiles between my comparisons and your laughable comps are what hurt your argument. That the numbers get smaller by contextualizing them compound your ignorance.

No answer, ok skate skate skate...Literally has nothing to do with whether West would be good today.


Never said they would equally translate, in fact, if you read the post you can clearly see why I feel Oscar's game would translate less (in comparison to West) to today, I also point out the irrelevance of the distinction.

So its an opinion, and no factual evidence. So you just disagreed because of your opinion. OK get it.



It literally means nothing. How they actually compete in the NBA is what matters.

Yeah except 50 years ago is not the NBA of today so...how they competed against each other literally means nothing.



Whos talking about the 50's? Why is your argument all over the place? Why must we correct you on your unsubstantiated facts? Answer those questions before we get to the mess that is your opinion.
[/QUOTE]
Skate skate skate, semantics..SKATE.
When you answer a question with a question you are just stalling because you have no answer Fyi.

Chronz
11-03-2014, 06:11 PM
Biggest white flag, complete dismissal of said questions.

Why are you the only who gets to ask questions anyways? After the things you've spewed, I would think you would have been humbled enough to answer a few Q's. The onus is on you to back your stance, we already know your facts have been horrendous to start. Once that happens, you lose the benefit of the doubt.

IKnowHoops
11-03-2014, 06:15 PM
Biggest white flag, complete dismissal of said questions.

Why are you the only who gets to ask questions anyways? After the things you've spewed, I would think you would have been humbled enough to answer a few Q's. The onus is on you to back your stance, we already know your facts have been horrendous to start. Once that happens, you lose the benefit of the doubt.


Damn I was saying the same thing about you. One at a time then. Ask I'll answer, then I expect you to do the same.

dnl123
11-03-2014, 06:35 PM
No particular order. I'm just riffing them off of memory.

1. MJ
2. Bird
3. Magic
4. Lebron
5. Shaq
6. Kareem
7. Wilt
8. Russell
9. Isiah Thomas
10. Kobe
11. Kevin Garnett
12. Oscar Robertson
13. John Stockton
14. Tim Duncan
15. Charles Barkley
16. Karl Malone
17. Dr. J
18. Hakeen Olajawon
19. Elgin Baylor
20. Jerry West
21. KDurant

amos1er
11-03-2014, 06:49 PM
Give me your top 25-30 players. Its very hard to be concrete about exact player rankings all time, but if you can or want to, go for it. But if you want to leave it a little open because some are so close you can follow my example.

And how about we select players based on there peak. As if you are trying to win a ring one year and you have the player at there best.

Here goes...

The first 3 are very close and I'd take anyone to start my team and be happy.
1.Mike
2.Bron
3.Shaq
The next two were probably the two most era dominant players in history and can be in any order
4.Wilt
5.Kareem
The next three again are very close and are almost interchangeable as well and can be put in any order.
6. Drob
7. Dream
8. Duncan
And the last two round out my top ten and are also very hard for me to decide who Id rather have.
9.KG
10. Durant
Then after that I would go with these three wings who are pretty interchangeable
11.Tmac
12.Wade
13.Kobe
Then here is where I would put a big group who I think could all be mixed in order
14.Oscar
15.Magic
16.Bird
17.K.Malone
18.Barkley
19.M.Malone
20.CP3
21.Dirk
22.Dr. J
23.Elgin
Then I have these three guys in any order.
24.Iverson
25.Ewing
26.Pippen
Then my next tier in any order would be
27.Payton
28.Isaiah
29.Stockton
30.Nash
Honorable mentions that I really like who I think could of jumped into this conversation if they would of done something a little different are Amare, Vince,Dominique, Tim Hardaway, Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill. I actually like all these guys better than my bottom 3 guys. I think they had it in them to be better, but either injury or mentality just prevented it from happening.

Of guys playing now I think Blake, and Anthony Davis may have what it takes to get into this list. Maybe Melo but I just don't like his black hole mentality but I like him at a talent.

Hard for me to rank the Pettit's, and West's of the world because I think they would get annihilated by today's talent even though I acknowledge they were good in there time.

I wish I could sig this post, but it's far to long. Straight up comedy though. This guy just leaves gems behind every time he posts.

Clearly a troll thread btw.

amos1er
11-03-2014, 06:51 PM
Biggest white flag, complete dismissal of said questions.

Why are you the only who gets to ask questions anyways? After the things you've spewed, I would think you would have been humbled enough to answer a few Q's. The onus is on you to back your stance, we already know your facts have been horrendous to start. Once that happens, you lose the benefit of the doubt.

Did you really give him any to begin with.

amos1er
11-03-2014, 06:53 PM
1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabaar
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Magic Johnson
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Larry Bird
9. Tim Duncan
10. Kobe Bryant

Honest question... How can you justify Lebron being the 2nd GOAT behind only Jordan...

Hawkeye15
11-03-2014, 06:54 PM
Honest question... How can you justify Lebron being the 2nd GOAT behind only Jordan...

I honestly think LeBron's career needs to go about perfect to finish that high by the time he is done...And forget catching Jordan at this point.

YAALREADYKNO
11-03-2014, 06:58 PM
Lebron would need 2-3 more championships to be 2nd behind Jordan.

Buckwheat
11-03-2014, 08:34 PM
I honestly think LeBron's career needs to go about perfect to finish that high by the time he is done...And forget catching Jordan at this point.

Why? I think he can win two or three more and add a few more MVPs pretty easily in Cleveland. I don't think they'll win it all this year, either. So perfect is not the term I would use.

I'm not going to lie and say I'm not putting LeBron second on my list based on what I imagine he'll achieve over the next few seasons with the Cavaliers.


Lebron would need 2-3 more championships to be 2nd behind Jordan.

Don't think this is necessarily a pipedream with the squad they have. Fairly possible.

Buckwheat
11-03-2014, 08:38 PM
And I'm also not going to pretend like I'm not a LeBron apologist. I'm biased with anything that involves LeBron and it takes everything in my power to not put him over Jordan at the one spot :laugh2:

Hey, at least I'm honest. I try to not let it cloud my honest opinion.

amos1er
11-03-2014, 08:57 PM
Lebron would need 2-3 more championships to be 2nd behind Jordan.

I thought you all say it's not about championships... Then if that is the case, why would he need 2-3 more to catch Jordan... Shouldn't his stats be enough according to the general consensus on here. Is a little consistency with all the Lebron propaganda too much to ask for around here...

Buckwheat
11-03-2014, 08:59 PM
I thought you all say it's not about championships... Then if that is the case, why would he need 2-3 more to catch Jordan... Shouldn't his stats be enough according to the general consensus on here. Is a little consistency with all the Lebron propaganda too much to ask for around here...

You would think that PER he posted in Miami would be enough.

amos1er
11-03-2014, 09:00 PM
I honestly think LeBron's career needs to go about perfect to finish that high by the time he is done...And forget catching Jordan at this point.

I could just about agree with that statement. At least you have conceded that he has no chance to catch Jordan anymore.

amos1er
11-03-2014, 09:02 PM
You would think that PER he posted in Miami would be enough.

There is the argument that he could have sacrificed a bit more on the personal stat level for the good of his teams in Miami. Had Miami went 4/4 and he posted all those stats I might agree with you, but since he went 2/4 with that incredible roster in such a weak conference, we really do have to question things about his personal stats and the effect they have on his both his teams and his teammates.

SeekTheTruth
11-03-2014, 09:53 PM
i stopped reading after the russel/ben wallace , comp. Clearly you have not watched any film on bill , he was a world class athlete and was not just a defensive juggernaut, one of the best minds basketball has ever seen and would absolutely have the athleticism to still dominate in todays game, although probably not to the tune of 11 chips

amos1er
11-03-2014, 10:02 PM
i stopped reading after the russel/ben wallace , comp. Clearly you have not watched any film on bill , he was a world class athlete and was not just a defensive juggernaut, one of the best minds basketball has ever seen and would absolutely have the athleticism to still dominate in todays game, although probably not to the tune of 11 chips

Yup, even Laker and Celtic fans alike can mutually agree that this was a horrible list.

That says a lot.

Hawkeye15
11-03-2014, 10:06 PM
Why? I think he can win two or three more and add a few more MVPs pretty easily in Cleveland. I don't think they'll win it all this year, either. So perfect is not the term I would use.

I'm not going to lie and say I'm not putting LeBron second on my list based on what I imagine he'll achieve over the next few seasons with the Cavaliers.



Don't think this is necessarily a pipedream with the squad they have. Fairly possible.

yep, that would be a perfect scenario. Perfect IS winning 2 more chips, and winning 2 more MVP's.

IKnowHoops
11-03-2014, 10:20 PM
I wish I could sig this post, but it's far to long. Straight up comedy though. This guy just leaves gems behind every time he posts.

Clearly a troll thread btw.

Says the guy who creates dupe accounts to vote for Kobe...as if its that serious...and by the way a classless pathetic act at that.

IKnowHoops
11-03-2014, 10:21 PM
Did you really give him any to begin with.

Says the guy who creates dupe accounts to vote for Kobe...as if it was that serious...and by the way a classless and most pathetic act at that.

amos1er
11-03-2014, 10:50 PM
Says the guy who creates dupe accounts to vote for Kobe...as if it was that serious...and by the way a classless and most pathetic act at that.

That's literally the only comeback you have and it isn't even true.

Chronz
11-03-2014, 11:28 PM
I'm over this bro

Sorry for being so combative. I get too passionate about the forefathers of the nba.

We can disagree for now. I'm sure well rehash this another time

FlashBolt
11-03-2014, 11:37 PM
I love how amos1er is hiding behind Chronz to fight an enemy (IknowHoopz), but when Chronz is busy destroying amos1er in a debate, amos1er signs off and waits for the heat put on him to die down before showing up again.. Whatever the case may be, LeBron being #2 is not a bad pick. Name some players who played against legitimate competition who have had better numbers/impact than LeBron. LeBron is the closest player to the most statistically gifted player in NBA - Jordan. Their advanced statistics are so similar to the point where it's basically the same player.

YAALREADYKNO
11-04-2014, 11:28 AM
I thought you all say it's not about championships... Then if that is the case, why would he need 2-3 more to catch Jordan... Shouldn't his stats be enough according to the general consensus on here. Is a little consistency with all the Lebron propaganda too much to ask for around here...

TF you talkin about? when have I said its not about championships? Championships have a lot to do with it but other things come into play as well. Lebron will be judged based off how many championships he's won at the end of his career. Doesn't matter if he wins another 4 league MVP's if he doesn't win another championship people will use that against him and that'll be the knock on him.

Hawkeye15
11-04-2014, 11:47 AM
TF you talkin about? when have I said its not about championships? Championships have a lot to do with it but other things come into play as well. Lebron will be judged based off how many championships he's won at the end of his career. Doesn't matter if he wins another 4 league MVP's if he doesn't win another championship people will use that against him and that'll be the knock on him.

what will be used more against him, is his total collapse against Dallas. I don't blame him for his first finals loss, he was a kid, and had a terrible team around him. I don't blame him for last year, Bosh was a no-show, and Wade was Lt. Dan at that point (not to mention that Spurs team might have been the best team I have ever seen in the playoffs since I started watching in 1984). But the Dallas one just destroyed any chance of him catching Jordan for me. Even if he never wins another ring, 2 is enough for me, when you put all the other variables into the equation to get his all time ranking, to climb into the top 3-4. But he ain't catching MJ. Ever, not for me.

YAALREADYKNO
11-04-2014, 11:51 AM
what will be used more against him, is his total collapse against Dallas. I don't blame him for his first finals loss, he was a kid, and had a terrible team around him. I don't blame him for last year, Bosh was a no-show, and Wade was Lt. Dan at that point (not to mention that Spurs team might have been the best team I have ever seen in the playoffs since I started watching in 1984). But the Dallas one just destroyed any chance of him catching Jordan for me. Even if he never wins another ring, 2 is enough for me, when you put all the other variables into the equation to get his all time ranking, to climb into the top 3-4. But he ain't catching MJ. Ever, not for me.

so according to you is he already a top 3-4 player? and I agree he wont catch Jordan in terms of being the greatest ever but if he wins a few more championships I don't see how he cant finish 2nd or 3rd

Hawkeye15
11-04-2014, 12:20 PM
so according to you is he already a top 3-4 player? and I agree he wont catch Jordan in terms of being the greatest ever but if he wins a few more championships I don't see how he cant finish 2nd or 3rd

see my post on page 1:


Tier 1:

Jordan

Tier 2:

Wilt
Kareem

Tier 3:

Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Magic

Tier 4:

LeBron
Bird
Kobe
Russell

That is about as far as I feel like going. Basically, amongst tiers, I don't care who you rank where, they just shouldn't move up or down out of a tier, or I figure it's worth a debate at that point.

And really, it's not about winning championships after you have won 2, and Finals MVP with both. Its more about how you play in your playoff runs, etc. You can't help what teammates do, or who you might face. I do agree, it would make it a no brainer that he climbs into the top 3 if he wins another ring or two as clearly the best player on his team, but I won't hold it against him if he runs into a better team, or his team fails on him, and he killed it regardless.

Right now, I have him around 8-10. But I think he finishes top 4 for sure.

YAALREADYKNO
11-04-2014, 12:29 PM
see my post on page 1:



And really, it's not about winning championships after you have won 2, and Finals MVP with both. Its more about how you play in your playoff runs, etc. You can't help what teammates do, or who you might face. I do agree, it would make it a no brainer that he climbs into the top 3 if he wins another ring or two as clearly the best player on his team, but I won't hold it against him if he runs into a better team, or his team fails on him, and he killed it regardless.

Right now, I have him around 8-10. But I think he finishes top 4 for sure.


It might not matter to you but 99% of other people will use championships against him if he doesn't win another one

Hawkeye15
11-04-2014, 12:39 PM
It might not matter to you but 99% of other people will use championships against him if he doesn't win another one

and if they are not using context, they are wrong. If he pulls another Dallas finals while losing, by all means, fine. But he was easily the best player on the floor in last years finals, his team sucked. How should that possibly be held against him?

But sure, everyone gets to rank players the way they want, it is up to them to justify it.

YAALREADYKNO
11-04-2014, 12:51 PM
and if they are not using context, they are wrong. If he pulls another Dallas finals while losing, by all means, fine. But he was easily the best player on the floor in last years finals, his team sucked. How should that possibly be held against him?

But sure, everyone gets to rank players the way they want, it is up to them to justify it.


I agree that LeBron was the only guy who was actually playing for the heat last yr but again he will be based off nothing but championships from here on out. If he wins one more I have him jumping past kobe and wilt which would get him into my top 5

Hawkeye15
11-04-2014, 12:56 PM
I agree that LeBron was the only guy who was actually playing for the heat last yr but again he will be based off nothing but championships from here on out. If he wins one more I have him jumping past kobe and wilt which would get him into my top 5

I obviously don't weight championships that high. They are more out of your control than any other portion of the equation of greatness. Which is why I have Wilt as high as #2 all time (he and Kareem are in my 2nd tier).

But, to each their own. He is flying by Kobe without 1 more ring for me, if he isn't already done so.

YAALREADYKNO
11-04-2014, 01:04 PM
I obviously don't weight championships that high. They are more out of your control than any other portion of the equation of greatness. Which is why I have Wilt as high as #2 all time (he and Kareem are in my 2nd tier).

But, to each their own. He is flying by Kobe without 1 more ring for me, if he isn't already done so.

if championships don't matter then why isn't wilt or kareem your #1? Championships aren't everything but they do matter when it comes in judging a player. If not then karl Malone is in the top 10 of all time

Hawkeye15
11-04-2014, 01:06 PM
if championships don't matter then why isn't wilt or kareem your #1? Championships aren't everything but they do matter when it comes in judging a player. If not then karl Malone is in the top 10 of all time

Jordan was statistically more dominant than either, better defender, more dominant amongst his peers, his dominance in both regular season/playoffs, awards, accoldades, etc.

Rings do matter some, they just don't matter any more than a ton of other factors I use.

Karl Malone is not in the top 10 all time. He shriveled up in the playoffs, it's not like he was Charles Barkley who was a total beast in the playoffs, but just ran into better teams...

kdspurman
11-04-2014, 01:32 PM
I agree that LeBron was the only guy who was actually playing for the heat last yr but again he will be based off nothing but championships from here on out. If he wins one more I have him jumping past kobe and wilt which would get him into my top 5

Lebron in the finals last year was good, but it was in spurts. So his total numbers looked good, but he would score a lot in garbage time, he would do good in a quarter and be pretty quiet for 2-3 quarters, etc... He reverted to not being aggressive more than people realize

YAALREADYKNO
11-04-2014, 01:39 PM
Lebron in the finals last year was good, but it was in spurts. So his total numbers looked good, but he would score a lot in garbage time, he would do good in a quarter and be pretty quiet for 2-3 quarters, etc... He reverted to not being aggressive more than people realize

The man could only do so much. After game 2 it just seemed like all the other players on the heat just quit playing

Hawkeye15
11-04-2014, 01:56 PM
Lebron in the finals last year was good, but it was in spurts. So his total numbers looked good, but he would score a lot in garbage time, he would do good in a quarter and be pretty quiet for 2-3 quarters, etc... He reverted to not being aggressive more than people realize

when your team is down 18 in the 2nd quarter and you see your team has already given up, kinda hard to keep playing as hard as possible. It was just a perfect storm of the Spurs being that good last year come playoffs (I seriously think they beat any team I have ever seen in last years finals), and the Heat's roster outside LeBron just sucking.

KnicksorBust
11-04-2014, 02:13 PM
what will be used more against him, is his total collapse against Dallas. I don't blame him for his first finals loss, he was a kid, and had a terrible team around him. I don't blame him for last year, Bosh was a no-show, and Wade was Lt. Dan at that point (not to mention that Spurs team might have been the best team I have ever seen in the playoffs since I started watching in 1984). But the Dallas one just destroyed any chance of him catching Jordan for me. Even if he never wins another ring, 2 is enough for me, when you put all the other variables into the equation to get his all time ranking, to climb into the top 3-4. But he ain't catching MJ. Ever, not for me.

Just curious, are you saying he CAN'T catch MJ or he WON'T ?

Hawkeye15
11-04-2014, 02:15 PM
Just curious, are you saying he CAN'T catch MJ or he WON'T ?

I don't think he can anymore. His Dallas series killed those chances imo. When did Jordan ever lay an egg like that?

Chronz
11-04-2014, 02:51 PM
I don't think he can anymore. His Dallas series killed those chances imo. When did Jordan ever lay an egg like that?

Longevity and otherworldly performances can make an argument. I doubt he gets there but to say its dead, is to ignore the vast portions of MJ's career where he just called it quits. Those chunks of his peak years are removed from the equation. They also gave him the mental/physical break from the game that often ends dynasties so I dont buy the notion that MJ would have won it every year.

Hawkeye15
11-04-2014, 02:57 PM
Longevity and otherworldly performances can make an argument. I doubt he gets there but to say its dead, is to ignore the vast portions of MJ's career where he just called it quits. Those chunks of his peak years are removed from the equation. They also gave him the mental/physical break from the game that often ends dynasties so I dont buy the notion that MJ would have won it every year.

I don't think he would have gotten by Orlando had he stayed that year, with Horace being Phil's whipping boy, and him going to Orlando. But we won't ever know....

I think the book is closed to catch Jordan for LeBron personally. We will see what happens, it's just such a fine line to catch Jordan imo. I actually think it would make it easier if Jordan had not retired in his peak, because I think that team was beatable when they had their changes after the first 3 peat.

YAALREADYKNO
11-04-2014, 07:48 PM
I don't think he would have gotten by Orlando had he stayed that year, with Horace being Phil's whipping boy, and him going to Orlando. But we won't ever know....

I think the book is closed to catch Jordan for LeBron personally. We will see what happens, it's just such a fine line to catch Jordan imo. I actually think it would make it easier if Jordan had not retired in his peak, because I think that team was beatable when they had their changes after the first 3 peat.

you think they could've beaten the rockets?

kdspurman
11-05-2014, 10:35 AM
when your team is down 18 in the 2nd quarter and you see your team has already given up, kinda hard to keep playing as hard as possible. It was just a perfect storm of the Spurs being that good last year come playoffs (I seriously think they beat any team I have ever seen in last years finals), and the Heat's roster outside LeBron just sucking.

I think it's slightly exaggerated. Chalmers/Bosh obviously struggled big time. But Wade was solid games 1-3, as were Lewis and Allen. in fact in game 3, when the heat were down big in the 3rd, Wade was a big reason why they cut the lead to 7 while Lebron was on the bench.

I've re-watched that series plenty of times over the summer, and Lebron was not as good as his stat line indicated in 2 or 3 of those games. (Game 1 he was doing great until the cramps, and Game 2 he was dominant) But he turned the ball over a ton, and became very tentative like he did against Dallas at times in games 3-5. Once things started to not go their way, or the Spurs made a run, you saw a different Lebron. I get he had to carry the load, and things got frustrating at times, but that doesn't mean you go away from who you are. Especially a player of his caliber

YAALREADYKNO
11-05-2014, 11:12 AM
I think it's slightly exaggerated. Chalmers/Bosh obviously struggled big time. But Wade was solid games 1-3, as were Lewis and Allen. in fact in game 3, when the heat were down big in the 3rd, Wade was a big reason why they cut the lead to 7 while Lebron was on the bench.

I've re-watched that series plenty of times over the summer, and Lebron was not as good as his stat line indicated in 2 or 3 of those games. (Game 1 he was doing great until the cramps, and Game 2 he was dominant) But he turned the ball over a ton, and became very tentative like he did against Dallas at times in games 3-5. Once things started to not go their way, or the Spurs made a run, you saw a different Lebron. I get he had to carry the load, and things got frustrating at times, but that doesn't mean you go away from who you are. Especially a player of his caliber

Lebron tried man when you score 21 out of your teams 22 points in a quarter it says a lot

nandovelez
11-05-2014, 11:19 AM
Comparing jimmer with jerry west smh now i seen it all. Some people in this forum get real disrespectful to the guys who helped build this game. The top guys would be good players in any era. West, baylor,robertson and chamberlain wouldve dominated in any era. Ignorance in this forum smh

nandovelez
11-05-2014, 11:23 AM
Btw hawk i like ur tiers i probably would have wilt and jordan in the same tier but thats just me. And lebron is fine where he is on ur list lebron is a top ten/ debateable top 5 player but u cant break the three of jordan wilt or kaj and i dont think those three should ever get touched

kdspurman
11-05-2014, 12:07 PM
Lebron tried man when you score 21 out of your teams 22 points in a quarter it says a lot

Again, I'm not saying he didn't. But he also stopped trying (or it seemed like it) during several parts of that series. And he did have a ton of turnovers. I think it's exaggerated a bit with regards to Lebron having no help that series

YAALREADYKNO
11-11-2014, 12:16 PM
:cheers:

ILLUSIONIST^248
11-11-2014, 12:39 PM
Give me your top 25-30 players. Its very hard to be concrete about exact player rankings all time, but if you can or want to, go for it. But if you want to leave it a little open because some are so close you can follow my example.

And how about we select players based on there peak. As if you are trying to win a ring one year and you have the player at there best.

Here goes...

The first 3 are very close and I'd take anyone to start my team and be happy.
1.Mike
2.Bron
3.Shaq
The next two were probably the two most era dominant players in history and can be in any order
4.Wilt
5.Kareem
The next three again are very close and are almost interchangeable as well and can be put in any order.
6. Drob
7. Dream
8. Duncan
And the last two round out my top ten and are also very hard for me to decide who Id rather have.
9.KG
10. Durant
Then after that I would go with these three wings who are pretty interchangeable
11.Tmac
12.Wade
13.Kobe
Then here is where I would put a big group who I think could all be mixed in order
14.Oscar
15.Magic
16.Bird
17.K.Malone
18.Barkley
19.M.Malone
20.CP3
21.Dirk
22.Dr. J
23.Elgin
Then I have these three guys in any order.
24.Iverson
25.Ewing
26.Pippen
Then my next tier in any order would be
27.Payton
28.Isaiah
29.Stockton
30.Nash
Honorable mentions that I really like who I think could of jumped into this conversation if they would of done something a little different are Amare, Vince,Dominique, Tim Hardaway, Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill. I actually like all these guys better than my bottom 3 guys. I think they had it in them to be better, but either injury or mentality just prevented it from happening.

Of guys playing now I think Blake, and Anthony Davis may have what it takes to get into this list. Maybe Melo but I just don't like his black hole mentality but I like him at a talent.

Hard for me to rank the Pettit's, and West's of the world because I think they would get annihilated by today's talent even though I acknowledge they were good in there time.

Lebron number two:laugh: I almost pissed myself reading that

Chronz
11-11-2014, 12:43 PM
Lebron number two:laugh: I almost pusses my self reading that

Huh? Can you clarify what you mean? What did you do with ur pusses?

YAALREADYKNO
11-11-2014, 12:53 PM
Lebron number two:laugh: I almost pusses my self reading that

???

ILLUSIONIST^248
11-11-2014, 12:55 PM
Just curious, are you saying he CAN'T catch MJ or he WON'T ?

I don't think he can anymore. His Dallas series killed those chances imo. When did Jordan ever lay an egg like that?m
Let's not forget the worst beat down in NBA finals history either

ILLUSIONIST^248
11-11-2014, 12:58 PM
I don't think he can anymore. His Dallas series killed those chances imo. When did Jordan ever lay an egg like that?

Longevity and otherworldly performances can make an argument. I doubt he gets there but to say its dead, is to ignore the vast portions of MJ's career where he just called it quits. Those chunks of his peak years are removed from the equation. They also gave him the mental/physical break from the game that often ends dynasties so I dont buy the notion that MJ would have won it every year.

There's no chance FC, move on.

ILLUSIONIST^248
11-11-2014, 01:00 PM
Lebron number two:laugh: I almost pusses my self reading that

Huh? Can you clarify what you mean? What did you do with ur pusses?

Typo lol

YAALREADYKNO
11-11-2014, 01:24 PM
m
Let's not forget the worst beat down in NBA finals history either

I wouldn't really hold that against him. Yeah they got beat down in last yrs finals but the man was the only one playing for the heat after game 2.

ILLUSIONIST^248
11-11-2014, 02:12 PM
m
Let's not forget the worst beat down in NBA finals history either

I wouldn't really hold that against him. Yeah they got beat down in last yrs finals but the man was the only one playing for the heat after game 2.

How do you not hold it against him, he's the leader. There's no avoiding that stat. The Spurs let him pad his stats while blowing them out in the process. 2 ships in 4 years despite having the best team all four years is a hit to his legacy.

Chronz
11-11-2014, 02:14 PM
There's no chance FC, move on.
-1

You know nothing

Chronz
11-11-2014, 02:21 PM
How do you not hold it against him, he's the leader. There's no avoiding that stat. The Spurs let him pad his stats while blowing them out in the process. 2 ships in 4 years despite having the best team all four years is a hit to his legacy.

Because the leader doesn't control the actions of the other 9 players on the court. There is no need to avoid that TEAM stat. The Spurs didnt allow anything, they simply overwhelmed the Heat. 2 rings in 4 years is a great accomplishment despite your shallow opinion. Its why Larry Bird wonders if we've ever seen a better playoff run in NBA history. But hey, when you have legends wondering if they have ever seen better, it must be a hit to his legacy.

Hawkeye15
11-11-2014, 02:34 PM
Because the leader doesn't control the actions of the other 9 players on the court. There is no need to avoid that TEAM stat. The Spurs didnt allow anything, they simply overwhelmed the Heat. 2 rings in 4 years is a great accomplishment despite your shallow opinion. Its why Larry Bird wonders if we've ever seen a better playoff run in NBA history. But hey, when you have legends wondering if they have ever seen better, it must be a hit to his legacy.

The Dwight move in your sig is a replica of what Dream did nightly haha

Chronz
11-11-2014, 03:05 PM
Typo lol

I hope so. I would hope we all know how to properly spell the word *******

YAALREADYKNO
11-11-2014, 03:08 PM
How do you not hold it against him, he's the leader. There's no avoiding that stat. The Spurs let him pad his stats while blowing them out in the process. 2 ships in 4 years despite having the best team all four years is a hit to his legacy.

I don't think scoring 21 out of 22 points is padding your stats. It was obvious the man was trying but after game 2 it seemed like everybody on the heat other than LeBron forgot how to play basketball and not just offensively but defensively as well

ILLUSIONIST^248
11-11-2014, 03:10 PM
How do you not hold it against him, he's the leader. There's no avoiding that stat. The Spurs let him pad his stats while blowing them out in the process. 2 ships in 4 years despite having the best team all four years is a hit to his legacy.

Because the leader doesn't control the actions of the other 9 players on the court. There is no need to avoid that TEAM stat. The Spurs didnt allow anything, they simply overwhelmed the Heat. 2 rings in 4 years is a great accomplishment despite your shallow opinion. Its why Larry Bird wonders if we've ever seen a better playoff run in NBA history. But hey, when you have legends wondering if they have ever seen better, it must be a hit to his legacy.

The heat were better than at least 80 percent of all teams to have played in the finals. There are zero excuses to be handed the worse finals loss in history. 2-2 in the finals while being the vegas favorites all four years is nothing to be proud of, especially when you consider they were going to be 1-3 had it not been for the greatest shot of all time.your apologies for Lebron are hilarious. So because one man said something it becomes fact? How about when MJ said kobe is better than Lebron? Get over yourself.

DoMeFavors
11-11-2014, 03:20 PM
Crazy for how high on everyones list Kobe is he only managed to win one league MVP

Chronz
11-11-2014, 03:23 PM
The heat were better than at least 80 percent of all teams to have played in the finals. There are zero excuses to be handed the worse finals loss in history.
I applaud you for actually trying to add some substance to your opinion, its always good to have tangible evidence behind subjective thoughts. But before I give you too much credit, is this a made up stat or something quantifiable? Wake me up when you provide the latter (for once).


2-2 in the finals while being the vegas favorites all four years is nothing to be proud of, especially when you consider they were going to be 1-3 had it not been for the greatest shot of all time. your apologies for Lebron are hilarious.
Why? Because you say so? LMFAO, look when it comes to stats/formulaic equations, Ill trust statisticians and their methodologies, not your baseless interpretation of them. When it comes to dissecting the history of the league, Im not going to take your word above a legend without some serious truth bombs. Stop half assing this debate bro.


So because one man said something it becomes fact?
LOL, is this the only defense Amos has taught you? Why do you guys keep thinking Im saying its fact? Its an OPINION. Learn the difference.

It seems you guys dont know how to formulate an argument, you see If I want to cite facts, Ill cite quantifiable evidence. Ill then supplant that with conjecture of those within the game and other various forms of subjective evidence. Thats the best we can do, provide both. What you guys provide is nothing but conjecture with rudimentary if not fake statistical evidence.



How about when MJ said kobe is better than mike?
He really said that? Can you show me? Afterwards, can you tell me what that has to do with ANYTHING we've said here?

LMFAO, your agenda is CLEAR for all to see bro, we've all learned your laughable tricks by now. Go get your 1st in command if you're not going to make an effort.


Get over yourself.
How cute....

ILLUSIONIST^248
11-11-2014, 03:24 PM
Crazy for how high on everyones list Kobe is he only managed to win one league MVP

It's a media award big guy. Rose has one too. Is he on par with kobe? What about shaq and Hakeem having just one? The mvp award is a joke

DoMeFavors
11-11-2014, 03:32 PM
It's a media award big guy. Rose has one too. Is he on par with kobe? What about shaq and Hakeem having just one? The mvp award is a joke

Kobe has been in the league for nearly 20 years and only has one. Obviously the talent was there for Kobe but the way he played the game for a lot of the years hurt his team.

Chronz
11-11-2014, 03:33 PM
It's a media award big guy. Rose has one too. Is he on par with kobe? What about shaq and Hakeem having just one? The mvp award is a joke

What makes it a joke? That you seem to think they should correlate perfectly with the best players in the game is the only joke I see.

ILLUSIONIST^248
11-11-2014, 03:36 PM
The heat were better than at least 80 percent of all teams to have played in the finals. There are zero excuses to be handed the worse finals loss in history.
I applaud you for actually trying to add some substance to your opinion, its always good to have tangible evidence behind subjective thoughts. But before I give you too much credit, is this a made up stat or something quantifiable? Wake me up when you provide the latter (for once).


2-2 in the finals while being the vegas favorites all four years is nothing to be proud of, especially when you consider they were going to be 1-3 had it not been for the greatest shot of all time. your apologies for Lebron are hilarious.
Why? Because you say so? LMFAO, look when it comes to stats/formulaic equations, Ill trust statisticians and their methodologies, not your baseless interpretation of them. When it comes to dissecting the history of the league, Im not going to take your word above a legend without some serious truth bombs. Stop half assing this debate bro.


So because one man said something it becomes fact?
LOL, is this the only defense Amos has taught you? Why do you guys keep thinking Im saying its fact? Its an OPINION. Learn the difference.

It seems you guys dont know how to formulate an argument, you see If I want to cite facts, Ill cite quantifiable evidence. Ill then supplant that with conjecture of those within the game and other various forms of subjective evidence. Thats the best we can do, provide both. What you guys provide is nothing but conjecture with rudimentary if not fake statistical evidence.



How about when MJ said kobe is better than mike?
He really said that? Can you show me?


Get over yourself.
How cute....

Unfortunately for me I'm not a college student sitting in my dorm with free time like you. So when I get home I'll gladly pm you or write in here the 80 percent of teams the heat are were than.

Until then, keep your grade A apologies coming. I need a good laugh a few times a day.

Hawkeye15
11-11-2014, 03:40 PM
god you are delusional

Chronz
11-11-2014, 03:44 PM
Unfortunately for me I'm not a college student sitting in my dorm with free time like you. So when I get home I'll gladly pm you or write in here the 80 percent of teams the heat are were than.

Until then, keep your grade A apologies coming. I need a good laugh a few times a day.

In other words, you need time to consult your chief in command. Sure, just make sure to comprehend what it is Im telling you and keep the baseless claims to yourself. This debate will go alot more smoothly if you put in even the slightest bit of effort.

Chronz
11-11-2014, 03:46 PM
god you are delusional

What I want to know is how do College students have free time? I have far more free time now than when I was in school. We all know his basketball arguments have always been lacking but even his insults make no sense.

Chronz
11-11-2014, 03:48 PM
Unfortunately for me I'm not a college student sitting in my dorm with free time like you. So when I get home I'll gladly pm you or write in here the 80 percent of teams the heat are were than.

Until then, keep your grade A apologies coming. I need a good laugh a few times a day.

How about that link tho, Im really curious to the context behind MJ saying Kobe was better..... Surely you have enough time for that....

ILLUSIONIST^248
11-11-2014, 04:12 PM
Unfortunately for me I'm not a college student sitting in my dorm with free time like you. So when I get home I'll gladly pm you or write in here the 80 percent of teams the heat are were than.

Until then, keep your grade A apologies coming. I need a good laugh a few times a day.

In other words, you need time to consult your chief in command. Sure, just make sure to comprehend what it is Im telling you and keep the baseless claims to yourself. This debate will go alot more smoothly if you put in even the slightest bit of effort.

Like I said, I don't have the free time you do for Internet debates. I happen to not spend much time at home on a computer. I do however show the things you guys say to my friends and they can't believe I even waste my time trying to show you guys how wrong you are. I know plenty of Lebron fans and they don't ever say half the things you guys claim. The Internet is filled with naive people, so I have to live with it.

ILLUSIONIST^248
11-11-2014, 04:17 PM
Unfortunately for me I'm not a college student sitting in my dorm with free time like you. So when I get home I'll gladly pm you or write in here the 80 percent of teams the heat are were than.

Until then, keep your grade A apologies coming. I need a good laugh a few times a day.

How about that link tho, Im really curious to the context behind MJ saying Kobe was better..... Surely you have enough time for that....


http://youtu.be/gmRfGK5z_R8

http://youtu.be/dlAdvAhaIEw

http://youtu.be/Fv37ykpYk84

http://youtu.be/Hl_HbwnjHLI


Do some research, everyone has kobe over Lebron. Btw Charles Barkley is an idiot and I don't listen to a word he says.

ILLUSIONIST^248
11-11-2014, 04:23 PM
god you are delusional

He's not delusional, he's just misguided .

Hawkeye15
11-11-2014, 04:27 PM
What I want to know is how do College students have free time? I have far more free time now than when I was in school. We all know his basketball arguments have always been lacking but even his insults make no sense.

I could have cared less about posting on a sports board when I could have been smoking a bong, drinking a beer, and trying to get 2 chicks to do me at once.

It's waaaaaaaaaaaay easier from work/home as an adult, one who has the financial means to even watch all the games haha.

Chronz
11-11-2014, 05:38 PM
http://youtu.be/gmRfGK5z_R8

http://youtu.be/dlAdvAhaIEw

http://youtu.be/Fv37ykpYk84

http://youtu.be/Hl_HbwnjHLI


Do some research, everyone has kobe over Lebron. Btw Charles Barkley is an idiot and I don't listen to a word he says.
When I quoted you, this is what you wrote:


How about when MJ said kobe is better than mike?

Thats what I was asking about. Dont care about your agenda.


Like I said, I don't have the free time you do for Internet debates. I happen to not spend much time at home on a computer. I do however show the things you guys say to my friends and they can't believe I even waste my time trying to show you guys how wrong you are. I know plenty of Lebron fans and they don't ever say half the things you guys claim. The Internet is filled with naive people, so I have to live with it.
Dont care about other "guys", show your friends MY posts and have your smartest friend write out your response for you. It might be an improvement but I dont really care about who you hang out with, just how you defend your argument. I dont know how much time you require but from my experience, Im guess you need alot of it. So feel free to take your time, this isn't a phone call or a text/chat.

Minimal
11-12-2014, 04:10 PM
1. Wilt
2. LeBron
3. MJ
4. Shaq
5. Kareem
6. Olajuwon
7. Magic
8. Duncan
9. Wade
10. Bird

YAALREADYKNO
11-13-2014, 11:01 AM
1. Wilt
2. LeBron
3. MJ
4. Shaq
5. Kareem
6. Olajuwon
7. Magic
8. Duncan
9. Wade
10. Bird

Damn another guy with Lebron at 2? I love LeBron just as much as anybody but #2? I don't know about all that

ghettosean
11-13-2014, 11:25 AM
Kobe has been in the league for nearly 20 years and only has one. Obviously the talent was there for Kobe but the way he played the game for a lot of the years hurt his team.

I hate the MVP award and how people think it makes you a better player because it is a media award and to Illusionists point regardless of how long peoples careers were Shaq and Hakeem played through there primes so the length of your career doesn't really matter when talking about MVP awards unless you can mention a handful of people who got it when there were past there mid to late 30's. Unless it's a finals MVP the regular season award doesn't hold much weight for me (a little but not much).

ghettosean
11-13-2014, 11:26 AM
Damn another guy with Lebron at 2? I love LeBron just as much as anybody but #2? I don't know about all that

Over Jordan as well... Yikes!

YAALREADYKNO
11-13-2014, 11:40 AM
Crazy for how high on everyones list Kobe is he only managed to win one league MVP

Karl Malone has 2 so he's better than Shaq, Kobe, and Hakeem who has only 1 and Kareem is better than Jordan because he has 6 and Jordan only has 5. You see how ridiculous your argument sounds? smh

Hawkeye15
11-13-2014, 11:46 AM
Karl Malone has 2 so he's better than Shaq, Kobe, and Hakeem who has only 1 and Kareem is better than Jordan because he has 6 and Jordan only has 5. You see how ridiculous your argument sounds? smh

yeah, there is a lot of quantifiable measurements to rank a player, MVP's are huge, but not indicative at all of who the best player was.

Is Nash better than Kobe? GTFO haha

curtcocaine
11-13-2014, 12:21 PM
Kobe has been in the league for nearly 20 years and only has one. Obviously the talent was there for Kobe but the way he played the game for a lot of the years hurt his team.
Shaq had 19 seasons.[emoji107]

ghettosean
11-13-2014, 01:02 PM
Shaq had 19 seasons.[emoji107]

According to NBA.COM Kobe has played 18 seasons and I suppose you can add in that Kobe was out an entire year with an achilles injury so maybe bring it down to 17 seasons though i still don't think Kobe > Shaq

YAALREADYKNO
11-14-2014, 10:40 AM
Kobe has been in the league for nearly 20 years and only has one. Obviously the talent was there for Kobe but the way he played the game for a lot of the years hurt his team.

he's been on 5 championship teams lol I don't think it hurt his teams at all

jerellh528
11-14-2014, 10:49 AM
1. Wilt
2. LeBron
3. MJ
4. Shaq
5. Kareem
6. Olajuwon
7. Magic
8. Duncan
9. Wade
10. Bird

This list gave me Ebola

Hawkeye15
11-14-2014, 11:05 AM
This list gave me Ebola

hahahaha

Minimal
11-14-2014, 02:37 PM
This list gave me Ebola
That was exactly my intention, clearing PSD from idiots and haters.