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mightybosstone
10-26-2014, 09:49 AM
Voting for #39 has concluded and PSD's official #39 NBA player of all time is....

Dominique Wilkins!!!

The List:
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Magic Johnson
5. Shaquille O'neal
6. Tim Duncan
7. Hakeem Olajuwan
8. LeBron James
9. Larry Bird
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Bill Russell
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Moses Malone
14. Jerry West
15. Julius Erving
16. David Robinson
17. Charles Barkley
18. Kevin Garnett
19. Karl Malone
20. Dirk Nowitzki
21. Bob Pettit
22. Dwyane Wade
23. John Havlicek
24. Patrick Ewing
25. Scottie Pippen
26. Elgin Baylor
27. John Stockton
28. Walt Frazier
29. Rick Barry
30. Clyde Drexler
31. Isiah Thomas
32. Willis Reed
33. Kevin Durant
34. Kevin McHale
35. Bill Walton
36. George Gervin
37. Allen Iverson
38. Gary Payton
39. Dominique Wilkins

SLY WILLIAMS
10-26-2014, 10:13 AM
Now this is getting tough. Should be interesting if we get enough votes.

Chronz
10-26-2014, 12:24 PM
Going Kidd for the career award. CP3 and Tmac are both clearly better players but I guess thats the wrong way to vote here

ThuglifeJ
10-26-2014, 12:37 PM
Why's Durant already 33. Premature much?

Nominating Vince if Tmac is already polling...


For here I'll go with who I voted for at 20.. Jason Kidd.

KnicksorBust
10-26-2014, 02:25 PM
Bob Cousy. Greatest PG in the world for a decade. League MVP. 6x NBA Champion. Led the league in assists more than any player other than Stockton. 10x All-NBA First Team.

SLY WILLIAMS
10-26-2014, 03:24 PM
Why's Durant already 33. Premature much?

Nominating Vince if Tmac is already polling...


For here I'll go with who I voted for at 20.. Jason Kidd.

Vince Carter should be on this list around now. I will go ahead and nominate the Johnson brothers. Marques Johnson and Kevin Johnson.

I have no idea who to pick here. At least 5 guys are deserving if not more. I guess I will go with my heart. Bernard King.

Chronz
10-27-2014, 04:00 AM
Going Kidd for the career award. CP3 and Tmac are both clearly better players but I guess thats the wrong way to vote here

Kidd shouldn't be punished for playing against heavier comp. He was a better 2-way player, just as inefficient as Cooz but with crisp passing but a much better defender/rebounder.

5ass
10-27-2014, 04:18 AM
I'm going with tmac. If only hill stayed healthy...

alexander_37
10-27-2014, 02:01 PM
Im just going to homer it up and vote Tmac till we are done.

ThuglifeJ
10-27-2014, 04:07 PM
Tmac? Really? Im a huge fan, but his career at an elite level was way too short. Tmac gets remembered for his elite years because that was basically it. There was not much before or after...so he's lucky to only be remembered for his primetime but I've grown to appreciate guys like Duncan, Kobe, Vince who were able to adjust their games and keep playing. But it sucks cuz a lot of people just want to remember the most recent years and completely forget how dominant these guys were when they were younger. Tmac is only remembered as that.

For Tmac he's really a top 10 talent of all-time, but I'd put him after Allen, Vince, Kidd, Nash for career reasons.

alexander_37
10-27-2014, 04:29 PM
Tmac? Really? Im a huge fan, but his career at an elite level was way too short. Tmac gets remembered for his elite years because that was basically it. There was not much before or after...so he's lucky to only be remembered for his primetime but I've grown to appreciate guys like Duncan, Kobe, Vince who were able to adjust their games and keep playing. But it sucks cuz a lot of people just want to remember the most recent years and completely forget how dominant these guys were when they were younger. Tmac is only remembered as that.

For Tmac he's really a top 10 talent of all-time, but I'd put him after Allen, Vince, Kidd, Nash for career reasons.

He averaged over 20 ppg for 8 years straight and scored almost 20,000 points...

Are you going to try and tell me that 1 time all star dale ellis or 2 time all star reggie theus deserved to be above him?

ThuglifeJ
10-27-2014, 04:38 PM
He averaged over 20 ppg for 8 years straight and scored almost 20,000 points...

Are you going to try and tell me that 1 time all star dale ellis or 2 time all star reggie theus deserved to be above him?

Did I say anything about Dale Ellis or Reggie? No, I didn't. But there's a list of guys ahead of him, like most the ones in the poll and the ones I mentioned.

Plus I'm pretty sure Ray and Vince have over 20,000 points, which is a huge accomplishment compared to "almost" 20,000.


And why do you care so much Tmac will be remembered with the Orlando Magic before the Rockets anyways.

alexander_37
10-27-2014, 04:42 PM
Did I say anything about Dale Ellis or Reggie? No, I didn't. But there's a list of guys ahead of him, like most the ones in the poll and the ones I mentioned.

Plus I'm pretty sure Ray and Vince have over 20,000 points, which is a huge accomplishment compared to "almost" 20,000.


And why do you care so much Tmac will be remembered with the Orlando Magic before the Rockets anyways.

The question is why do you care so much? I am a T-mac fan of course I would like to see him on the top 50 list.

P.S Ray allen has played in over 360 more games that McGrady AKA 4 and a half more seasons
Carter 250 more games aka 3 more seasons.

McGrady was way way more dominant than either of those guys.

ThuglifeJ
10-27-2014, 05:09 PM
So they're knocked on for being able to adjust their games and play longer? Tmac had injury problems, yes, but he also wasn't able to devoid his ego as he started losing athleticism and was just as much a reason.

And lol as way way more dominant. Tmac played IN VINCE'S SHADOW the beginning of his career and left town because he wanted the attention his cousin received. Did he get it? Yes, he became dominant in Orlando and one of the best players but him and Vince were literally the exact same player. 70% of their moves were identical. Tmac was taller but Vince could jump a bit higher. Both long *** arms, athletic freaks, smooth/fancy, non-chelant scoring machines from every spot on the court and approached the game the same way. They had the same post moves the same dribble moves the same fadeaway tendencies...

Cool Tmac averaged 32 PPG that one year in Orlando and killed it, he also had the ball in his hands the entire game and every play was run through him. Vince played more off-ball on occasion and like to make plays more than just score.

Ray Allen? Sure, but Ray had a better career than arguably both. Not nearly as good of a player but his career has been great.

Chronz
10-28-2014, 02:53 AM
Bob Cousy. Greatest PG in the world for a decade. League MVP. 6x NBA Champion. Led the league in assists more than any player other than Stockton. 10x All-NBA First Team.

meant to quote you btw

alexander_37
10-28-2014, 03:34 AM
So they're knocked on for being able to adjust their games and play longer? Tmac had injury problems, yes, but he also wasn't able to devoid his ego as he started losing athleticism and was just as much a reason.

And lol as way way more dominant. Tmac played IN VINCE'S SHADOW the beginning of his career and left town because he wanted the attention his cousin received. Did he get it? Yes, he became dominant in Orlando and one of the best players but him and Vince were literally the exact same player. 70% of their moves were identical. Tmac was taller but Vince could jump a bit higher. Both long *** arms, athletic freaks, smooth/fancy, non-chelant scoring machines from every spot on the court and approached the game the same way. They had the same post moves the same dribble moves the same fadeaway tendencies...

Cool Tmac averaged 32 PPG that one year in Orlando and killed it, he also had the ball in his hands the entire game and every play was run through him. Vince played more off-ball on occasion and like to make plays more than just score.

Ray Allen? Sure, but Ray had a better career than arguably both. Not nearly as good of a player but his career has been great.

Carter averaged over 25 points 3 times in his entire career. T-Mac did it 5 years in a row. And then went on to average 24.5 for 2 years after that run.

Sure T-Mac was known as a scorer but he was also much more ball dominant and took on most of the ball handling duties while averaging more assists, steals, blocks, rebounds, and almost the same turnover numbers.

Sure Carter scored more career points and played longer, but as you even said yourself he predominantly played off ball because he didn't have the vision and ball handling McGrady did. It is MUCH harder to score being the ball handler ( which McGrady lived in, and demanded double teams) than when you are getting fed open 3's , alley oops, and coming off easy off ball screens.

Carter's career numbers would suggest he is the better 3 point shooter but McGrady lived in iso's and shot many more contested shots off the dribble than Carter who got to spot up.

Not to mention McGrady was the better defender and averaged way more WS/48. Even when you include McGrady's first year ( living in Vince's shadow) and last 2 years where he was a corpse and his WS/48 were dog ****, he still blows Carter out of the water.

Don't test me here McGrady and carter were my 2 favorite players growing up I lived for Raptors games. McGrady had the complimentary skills to go with the scoring that carter never had, everybody knows it and it's fine. Vince Carter may be the most awe inspiring player in sheer athleticism since Nique but when it comes to winning basketball games and carrying a team on his back McGrady had way more impact.

Chronz
10-28-2014, 04:29 AM
Pretty sure hes a big fan of both Tmac and Vince too tho.

ThuglifeJ
10-28-2014, 12:42 PM
Carter averaged over 25 points 3 times in his entire career. T-Mac did it 5 years in a row. And then went on to average 24.5 for 2 years after that run.

Sure T-Mac was known as a scorer but he was also much more ball dominant and took on most of the ball handling duties while averaging more assists, steals, blocks, rebounds, and almost the same turnover numbers.

Sure Carter scored more career points and played longer, but as you even said yourself he predominantly played off ball because he didn't have the vision and ball handling McGrady did. It is MUCH harder to score being the ball handler ( which McGrady lived in, and demanded double teams) than when you are getting fed open 3's , alley oops, and coming off easy off ball screens.

Carter's career numbers would suggest he is the better 3 point shooter but McGrady lived in iso's and shot many more contested shots off the dribble than Carter who got to spot up.

Not to mention McGrady was the better defender

Don't test me here McGrady and carter were my 2 favorite players growing up I lived for Raptors games. McGrady had the complimentary skills to go with the scoring that carter never had, everybody knows it and it's fine. Vince Carter may be the most awe inspiring player in sheer athleticism since Nique but when it comes to winning basketball games and carrying a team on his back McGrady had way more impact.

This is such awful analysis and elementary ********. You are just wrong and only pick and choose what you remember, watch, and see.

Carter could do everything McGrady could do except be 2 inches taller and McGrady could do everything Carter could do except be AS elite a 3 point shooter.

It is completely moronic to think Vince predominately came off ball screens for open 3s his whole career or lobs HAHA that is such a joke. They were both isolation players in their primes. I'll give Tmac his couple years in Orlando, but his usage % was possibly the highest of all-time he was given the ball every possession, when Carter was needed to take over a game, from ball handling, to playmaking, to scoring he would do the same things, it's more so Carter wasn't on the Orlando Magic with Mike Miller his best player he at least had some decent players and valued team ball more (he went to college). It doesn't mean he wasn't capable or hasn't proven he isnt capable of dominating games.

but yeah Vince just got a bunch of open 3s off ball screens his whole career that's how he made his name and he couldn't shoot contested 3s like Tmac could get outa here man that's a joke.

McGrady was phenominal in his peak stretch, possibly a better scorer than anyone I've EVER seen, but it had a lot to do with the situation he was in with Orlando..I don't think Vince or Kobe could have produced those exact numbers, but they sure as hell could have came close.

alexander_37
10-28-2014, 01:43 PM
This is such awful analysis and elementary ********. You are just wrong and only pick and choose what you remember, watch, and see.

Carter could do everything McGrady could do except be 2 inches taller and McGrady could do everything Carter could do except be AS elite a 3 point shooter.

It is completely moronic to think Vince predominately came off ball screens for open 3s his whole career or lobs HAHA that is such a joke. They were both isolation players in their primes. I'll give Tmac his couple years in Orlando, but his usage % was possibly the highest of all-time he was given the ball every possession, when Carter was needed to take over a game, from ball handling, to playmaking, to scoring he would do the same things, it's more so Carter wasn't on the Orlando Magic with Mike Miller his best player he at least had some decent players and valued team ball more (he went to college). It doesn't mean he wasn't capable or hasn't proven he isnt capable of dominating games.

but yeah Vince just got a bunch of open 3s off ball screens his whole career that's how he made his name and he couldn't shoot contested 3s like Tmac could get outa here man that's a joke.

McGrady was phenominal in his peak stretch, possibly a better scorer than anyone I've EVER seen, but it had a lot to do with the situation he was in with Orlando..I don't think Vince or Kobe could have produced those exact numbers, but they sure as hell could have came close.

You really are overrating carters secondary skills. Even you have to admit he is nowhere near the ball handler or rebounder T-Mac was (In his prime averaged anywhere from 6.5 to 8 boards a game.) McGrady legitimately could play point, I remember in grade school my buddy actually told me he was a point guard and I laughed at him.

The bolded is an utterly ridiculous statement, McGrady never was the athlete or dunker Vince was I'd even give you the 3 point shooting. mcGrady was essentially more well rounded just about averywhere else. The most telling point being turnovers considering how much more McGrady handled and passed the ball.

Prime for prime Vince doesn't even touch him in terms of dominance in nearly every facet of the game.

ThuglifeJ
10-28-2014, 03:56 PM
I'm done. You're just pulling **** out of your childhood memories or NBA Live 03. I've seen or recap/highlight of every game Vince has played since Toronto. I've also seen or recap/highlight every game Tmac has played until he started getting injured in Houston. I know more than you in this department I'm sorry.

You dont have to 'even give me the 3 point shooting' it's not an argument, VC is literally still in the league at age 38 primarily because of his elite 3 point shooting. He doesn't make them on accident.

And Tmac was definitely was close to the athlete Vince was. They both were some of the most athletic players ever to step on the court. Vince probably thee most, but McGrady is close up there.. Tmac was a great ballhandler, but Vince is just as capable in his own right he just isn't known for it like Tmac was because of Orlando days. Vince has been running the pick and roll for a while now for his teams and was even ranked a top 5 pick n roll player LAST SEASON. I'd say Tmac was probably a better handler out of a high post up, but otherwise they both can do the same things.

Do I need video, stats to prove this?

Rebounding I'm not really sure, statswise Tmac wins there but as a SG VC was still grabbing 4.5-6.5 a game in his prime which makes him a good one as well. They both are good rebounders when they had the tenacity to do it, but I wouldn't say they were game changers with their rebounds.


I disagree either is more well-rounded. They're both insanely well-rounded and could do EVERYTHING imaginable on a court, it was more a mindset for both of them. VC leads his teams in charges drawn by a good margin so I wouldn't say Tmac is known as a better defender, both were good when they tried due to length.

alexander_37
10-28-2014, 10:06 PM
I'm done. You're just pulling **** out of your childhood memories or NBA Live 03. I've seen or recap/highlight of every game Vince has played since Toronto. I've also seen or recap/highlight every game Tmac has played until he started getting injured in Houston. I know more than you in this department I'm sorry.

You dont have to 'even give me the 3 point shooting' it's not an argument, VC is literally still in the league at age 38 primarily because of his elite 3 point shooting. He doesn't make them on accident.

And Tmac was definitely was close to the athlete Vince was. They both were some of the most athletic players ever to step on the court. Vince probably thee most, but McGrady is close up there.. Tmac was a great ballhandler, but Vince is just as capable in his own right he just isn't known for it like Tmac was because of Orlando days. Vince has been running the pick and roll for a while now for his teams and was even ranked a top 5 pick n roll player LAST SEASON. I'd say Tmac was probably a better handler out of a high post up, but otherwise they both can do the same things.

Do I need video, stats to prove this?

Rebounding I'm not really sure, statswise Tmac wins there but as a SG VC was still grabbing 4.5-6.5 a game in his prime which makes him a good one as well. They both are good rebounders when they had the tenacity to do it, but I wouldn't say they were game changers with their rebounds.


I disagree either is more well-rounded. They're both insanely well-rounded and could do EVERYTHING imaginable on a court, it was more a mindset for both of them. VC leads his teams in charges drawn by a good margin so I wouldn't say Tmac is known as a better defender, both were good when they tried due to length.

You watch highlights? Badass bro.

I actually watch games...

You see if you even break it down by the most basic stats in his prime tmac literally beat him in every stat except scoring efficiency.

He scored more
grabbed more rebounds
had more assists
more steals
more blocks

by the most basic box score stats he was more rounded you literally cant argue that. I am bringing simple facts here and your argument boils down to .

"No, no he isn't. Vince could do that if he wanted to. No here's my totally fabricated opinion with no analysis other than me saying they are even."

ThuglifeJ
10-28-2014, 10:45 PM
Lol I said or highlights/recaps because I'm not gonna sit here and lie like you probably would and say I've seen every single game no matter what even called off going to my best friends wedding to catch the game.......

I've seen about 80% of their games from start to finish..I know more about those two games than probably anyone on this board. I had/have an obsession with watching VC and Tmac play. The 20% of the games I haven't seen I've made sure to see highlights or recaps. Get it?

alexander_37
10-28-2014, 10:47 PM
Lol I said or highlights/recaps because I'm not gonna sit here and lie like you probably would and say I've seen every single game no matter what even called off going to my best friends wedding to catch the game.......

I've seen about 80% of their games from start to finish..I know more about those two games than probably anyone on this board. I had/have an obsession with watching VC and Tmac play. The 20% of the games I haven't seen I've made sure to see highlights or recaps. Get it?

I never said I watch every game, but you never said that before you literally said i watch every highlight recap ...

My point still stands, you have literally brought nothing but fabricated opinions and anecdotes.

Chronz
10-29-2014, 02:03 AM
Cant get behind the longevity argument for Vince for several reasons. While Tmac eventually succumbed to injury, Vince was taken down by it for large portions of his prime, what were suppose to be his best playing days were wasted by injury. Its partly why he only has 2 measly All-NBA Selections, the other being politics and getting robbed some years. Tmac at his apex has just as many 1st-Team selections as VC has overall, so the decline years are all gravy. You could argue Tmac had the longer span as a superstar and that Vince being a better role player to this day isn't enough to offset that IMO. Thats probably why alexander brought up the likes of Dale Ellis.

Compare their Prime runs and the comparison gets silly. Especially given that Vince missed the playoffs 4 years straight so you cant really convince anyone that his teams didn't need him to do more heavy lifting or that his role some how inhibited his production in comparison. Tmac was versatile enough to provide whatever his team needed, Vince was to a certain point. I dont know when you consider Vince's prime to have ended (I actually think his Orlando season is underappreciated) but we can both agree it happened at some point in between New Jersey or his first season with Orlando. He missed the playoffs entirely for about 7 of those seasons IIRC. And he wasn't even all that special when he got to the playoffs. He was electric vs Philly in that 01 run, but many felt Tmac out shined him in his playoff series debut, he had several playoff stinkers (05, 07, 10). So that leaves you with 2 great playoff runs and some pretty inconsistent regular seasons in between. Not exactly inspiring.


Meanwhile Tmac overachieves despite his team losing their best player (Grant Hill) and wills them into the post season where he continues to overachieve, the man showed up to play regardless of the stakes when compared to a streaky Vince. And you will have a very hard time finding any kind of proof that Vince was in Tmac's realm as a passer and defender.

SLY WILLIAMS
10-29-2014, 05:45 PM
Voting for #39 has concluded and PSD's official #39 NBA player of all time is....
The poll ended in a tie. How do you want to handle that?