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View Full Version : Is it a coincidence that LeBron's PER/TS%/WS48 is incredibly similar to Jordan?



FlashBolt
10-16-2014, 12:52 AM
Jordan: .................. ...................... LeBron
PER: 27.9 .................. .................... 27.8
TS%: .569% .................. ............... .581%
ORTG: 118 .................. ............... 116
DRTG: 103 .................. ............ 102
WS48: .250 .................. .................. .243

I noticed that their advanced statistics are incredibly similar. Anyone else?

goingfor28
10-16-2014, 12:54 AM
Both the greatest of their generation and GOAT. Not surprised.

flea
10-16-2014, 01:01 AM
He is no where near what Jordan was defensively.

jerellh528
10-16-2014, 01:25 AM
Yes, these current statistical metrics show they are close. If only James Had Jordans mentality and actual effectiveness on the court, he would be in goat discussion.

IKnowHoops
10-16-2014, 03:15 AM
They are the two best wings to ever do it so it makes perfect sense. When eye test meets stats, you have your answer.

IKnowHoops
10-16-2014, 03:16 AM
He is no where near what Jordan was defensively. True Jordan couldn't guard PF and centers.

Crackadalic
10-16-2014, 03:16 AM
Those two are generational talent.

ramsizzle
10-16-2014, 03:59 AM
True Jordan couldn't guard PF and centers.

Lebron can guard 4's and 5's? thats news to me....

Offdaheezy
10-16-2014, 04:25 AM
Lebron can guard 4's and 5's? thats news to me....

Are you high?

Lebron was guarding David West and Kevin Garnett in the playoffs.

P&GRealist
10-16-2014, 04:27 AM
Are you high?

Lebron was guarding David West and Kevin Garnett in the playoffs.

Yes, we all know how dominant and relevant Kevin Garnett has been the last 3 yrs.

Offdaheezy
10-16-2014, 05:26 AM
Yes, we all know how dominant and relevant Kevin Garnett has been the last 3 yrs.

The fact is, your Jordan and Kobe can't guard POWER FORWARDS and CENTERS.

SPURSFAN1
10-16-2014, 05:27 AM
Yes, we all know how dominant and relevant Kevin Garnett has been the last 3 yrs.

:laugh2:

bucketss
10-16-2014, 09:16 AM
not surprised since he's the best player since jordans retirement.

kdspurman
10-16-2014, 09:25 AM
True Jordan couldn't guard PF and centers.

They're built very differently. Not to mention the PF's and C's have changed from then until now, so that doesn't mean too much. (Lebron also does it cause there is much more small ball played as well) Jordan had a certain tenacity when he played dam near all the time, taking on the challenge of being a pest defensively. Lebron IMO gets a little too much credit on that end. He has the chase down blocks and defends guys in crunch time, but he had more of a tendency to play average defense and then turn it up in crunch moments.

I'm not saying he did this all the time, he certainly had his moments where he was dialed in and it felt like he was everywhere on the court on defense and wreaking havoc. But it wasn't really consistently at that level.

More-Than-Most
10-16-2014, 09:33 AM
Yes, these current statistical metrics show they are close. If only James Had Jordans mentality and actual effectiveness on the court, he would be in goat discussion.

There is so much truth to this its scary... I wish James had the attitude of Jordan or hell even Kobe... If James had their mentality with his skill it would be scary. Kobe is far inferior to james but he has the mentality I really like... Jordan had the entire package

akia83
10-16-2014, 09:46 AM
What would it be if not a coincidence?

flea
10-16-2014, 09:51 AM
True Jordan couldn't guard PF and centers.

Neither can Lebron, at least to any noteworthy degree. He's like Magic, you put him somewhere he won't get exposed and wait for him to make plays as a help defender.

Trouble is, Jordan was even better at Lebron on the help, both doubling in the post and disrupting passing lanes.

effen5
10-16-2014, 09:58 AM
The fact is, your Jordan and Kobe can't guard POWER FORWARDS and CENTERS.

Well to be fair lebron wouldn't be able to guard forwards and centers in jordans era...the era full of elite big men.

Confusious
10-16-2014, 10:04 AM
Yes, these current statistical metrics show they are close. If only James Had Jordans mentality and actual effectiveness on the court, he would be in goat discussion.
When LeBron retires (10+ years from now) he'll be retiring either #1 or #2 in history. I don't really care which it is. It was a privilege to be able to watch Michael play, and it's a privilege to see LeBron play.

kdspurman
10-16-2014, 10:31 AM
When LeBron retires (10+ years from now) he'll be retiring either #1 or #2 in history. I don't really care which it is. It was a privilege to be able to watch Michael play, and it's a privilege to see LeBron play.

These seem rather bold, but I guess we'll see.

Tysons_Beard
10-16-2014, 11:00 AM
No its not, call me crazy but I think that Lebron will surpass MJ in every statistic by the end of his career

Tysons_Beard
10-16-2014, 11:06 AM
No its not, call me crazy but I think that Lebron will surpass MJ in every statistic by the end of his career

Jamiecballer
10-16-2014, 12:21 PM
They are the two best wings to ever do it so it makes perfect sense. When eye test meets stats, you have your answer.
Pretty much.

FlashBolt
10-16-2014, 12:36 PM
If LeBron had Kobe/Jordan's mentality, he wouldn't be the player he is today. It's the fact that he can play to his strength that makes him dangerous. He's not a man-to-man scorer like Jordan/Kobe can do so well at. He excels at picking you apart through his various skillset. With that being said, someone said he couldn't guard the guards/forwards of the past.. I watched an episode of Open Court and I think Chauncey said the game was extremely different and that some players aren't taught/raised to play that sort of game. If Jordan played in the modern era (2005-2014), he wouldn't be the type of person he was. And James on defense attacking everyone physically would be ugly to watch. Just like if James was bred in the 1970's and played during the 90's, he would have been accustomed to playing through the physicality of the game.

ghettosean
10-16-2014, 01:06 PM
not surprised since he's the best wing player since jordans retirement.

Fixed for you... Many would argue Duncan was the best player since Jordans retirement.

ghettosean
10-16-2014, 01:09 PM
Well to be fair lebron wouldn't be able to guard forwards and centers in jordans era...the era full of elite big men.

He ain't dunking on a prime Shaq either... Just saying.

flea
10-16-2014, 01:11 PM
Fixed for you... Many would argue Duncan was the best player since Jordans retirement.
I'd take Duncan's prime and career over Lebron's, even though I haven't seen Lebron's decline yet.

IKnowHoops
10-16-2014, 01:45 PM
They're built very differently. Not to mention the PF's and C's have changed from then until now, so that doesn't mean too much. (Lebron also does it cause there is much more small ball played as well) Jordan had a certain tenacity when he played dam near all the time, taking on the challenge of being a pest defensively. Lebron IMO gets a little too much credit on that end. He has the chase down blocks and defends guys in crunch time, but he had more of a tendency to play average defense and then turn it up in crunch moments.

I'm not saying he did this all the time, he certainly had his moments where he was dialed in and it felt like he was everywhere on the court on defense and wreaking havoc. But it wasn't really consistently at that level.

Lebron is the only player I have ever seen thats going to check tony parker and stop his "penetration" then go pat duncan or splitter at the rim, then one man fast break it by himself down the other end of the court and score. Jordan does some stuff better than Jordan on the defensive end as well, but you gotta give Bron his credit for doing things Jordan could not of done, and never did do.

IKnowHoops
10-16-2014, 01:48 PM
Well to be fair lebron wouldn't be able to guard forwards and centers in jordans era...the era full of elite big men.

Bron would of done a better job guarding Barkley, and Malone than anyone else did in that era. Dennis Rodman level. And at the same time he could of guarded the quickest PG. Freak!

nickdymez
10-16-2014, 01:49 PM
Are you high?

Lebron was guarding David West and Kevin Garnett in the playoffs.
Lmfaoooo. No he wasn't

IKnowHoops
10-16-2014, 01:52 PM
He ain't dunking on a prime Shaq either... Just saying.

Nobody is, accept for Derrick Coleman:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1myF3dqnWo

IKnowHoops
10-16-2014, 01:55 PM
Fixed for you... Many would argue Duncan was the best player since Jordans retirement.


Shaq>Duncan

kdspurman
10-16-2014, 02:03 PM
Lebron is the only player I have ever seen thats going to check tony parker and stop his "penetration" then go pat duncan or splitter at the rim, then one man fast break it by himself down the other end of the court and score. Jordan does some stuff better than Jordan on the defensive end as well, but you gotta give Bron his credit for doing things Jordan could not of done, and never did do.

Yea that's why I made sure to throw in the stuff that he was doing and things he can do well. I just don't think he is consistently as tenacious on defense as Jordan was.

But yea, in reality, he does not guard Duncan or Splitter (to use your example) much. Unless it came on a switch. In that case anyone in his position would have to switch/rotate to them. I know he's done it in spurts, but very rarely was he defending guys like that for long stretches. He has the capability to do it in spurts cause of his physique. And he has the athleticism to guard smaller guys. But I mean, we've seen a lot of guys at his position do stuff like that. Bowen would guard guys from CP3 to Dirk, as would Artest in his day to name a few guys from recent years. And they did it the majority of the game if not the whole game.

kdspurman
10-16-2014, 02:03 PM
Bron would of done a better job guarding Barkley, and Malone than anyone else did in that era. Dennis Rodman level. And at the same time he could of guarded the quickest PG. Freak!

That's deep.... Woah.

IKnowHoops
10-16-2014, 02:21 PM
That's deep.... Woah.

Balls deep

Hawkeye15
10-16-2014, 02:30 PM
well, yeah, I have realized that. For years. As I have said before, LeBron is the best player since Jordan. I don't think he can catch him, but he will most likely end up top 3 ever, bumping Wilt, and possibly Jabbar back for me.

Hawkeye15
10-16-2014, 02:34 PM
Yea that's why I made sure to throw in the stuff that he was doing and things he can do well. I just don't think he is consistently as tenacious on defense as Jordan was.

But yea, in reality, he does not guard Duncan or Splitter (to use your example) much. Unless it came on a switch. In that case anyone in his position would have to switch/rotate to them. I know he's done it in spurts, but very rarely was he defending guys like that for long stretches. He has the capability to do it in spurts cause of his physique. And he has the athleticism to guard smaller guys. But I mean, we've seen a lot of guys at his position do stuff like that. Bowen would guard guys from CP3 to Dirk, as would Artest in his day to name a few guys from recent years. And they did it the majority of the game if not the whole game.

you do realize, Jordan rarely even guarded the other teams best wing, right? Not to say he wasn't an insanely disruptive defender when he wanted to be, but Pippen was the guy getting that assignment by 1991-92. Not taking anything away from Jordan, at all (I think he is the better player), but people need to remember his defensive assignments were usually the lesser of the 2 wings..

Hawkeye15
10-16-2014, 02:35 PM
Yea that's why I made sure to throw in the stuff that he was doing and things he can do well. I just don't think he is consistently as tenacious on defense as Jordan was.

But yea, in reality, he does not guard Duncan or Splitter (to use your example) much. Unless it came on a switch. In that case anyone in his position would have to switch/rotate to them. I know he's done it in spurts, but very rarely was he defending guys like that for long stretches. He has the capability to do it in spurts cause of his physique. And he has the athleticism to guard smaller guys. But I mean, we've seen a lot of guys at his position do stuff like that. Bowen would guard guys from CP3 to Dirk, as would Artest in his day to name a few guys from recent years. And they did it the majority of the game if not the whole game.

specialists though

kdspurman
10-16-2014, 02:45 PM
you do realize, Jordan rarely even guarded the other teams best wing, right? Not to say he wasn't an insanely disruptive defender when he wanted to be, but Pippen was the guy getting that assignment by 1991-92. Not taking anything away from Jordan, at all (I think he is the better player), but people need to remember his defensive assignments were usually the lesser of the 2 wings..

For sure. Though I feel like even when guarding guys who weren't the other teams best perimeter player, more times than not he was still taking pride in guarding whoever, whereas Lebron at times seemed to be more of a if it's not a marquis player maybe the effort is not what it would be if it was kind of deal.

Hawkeye15
10-16-2014, 02:50 PM
For sure. Though I feel like even when guarding guys who weren't the other teams best perimeter player, more times than not he was still taking pride in guarding whoever, whereas Lebron at times seemed to be more of a if it's not a marquis player maybe the effort is not what it would be if it was kind of deal.

before last season, LeBron was a great defender, day in, day out. But remember, he has played the same amount of games Jordan did by age 33, as well as only 20 playoff games less TOTAL. Add to it that he is 50-60 lbs heavier, and might have had to do even more for his team in his first 7 years, and you can see why at age 30, LeBron is already taking it easier on that side of the floor. Having a Pippen would also help him hide that laid back approach at times, as would having Rodman....

LeBron won his first all team defensive award he had no business winning. Expect another 4-5 of them haha, that is how it works.

Goose17
10-16-2014, 02:58 PM
not surprised since he's the best player since jordans retirement.

This^

ghettosean
10-16-2014, 03:59 PM
Fixed for you... Many would argue Duncan was the best player since Jordans retirement.


Shaq>Duncan

Shaq played against Jordan when he was in Chicago??? But ok...

SPURSFAN1
10-16-2014, 06:55 PM
well, yeah, I have realized that. For years. As I have said before, LeBron is the best player since Jordan. I don't think he can catch him, but he will most likely end up top 3 ever, bumping Wilt, and possibly Jabbar back for me.

Stopped reading after that. lol

FlashBolt
10-16-2014, 07:05 PM
Lmfaoooo. No he wasn't

He stopped Gasol and was able to contain Dwight on a couple of plays. But it's not whether or not he can guard C/PF's. We know he can. Can he do it for the entire game? Obviously not considering he's relied on to do so many things for his team. But he can if that WAS his assignment.

nickdymez
10-16-2014, 07:07 PM
He stopped Gasol and was able to contain Dwight on a couple of plays. But it's not whether or not he can guard C/PF's. We know he can. Can he do it for the entire game? Obviously not considering he's relied on to do so many things for his team. But he can if that WAS his assignment.
Can he play 1 on 5 and beat a team by himself If he wanted to?

Hawkeye15
10-16-2014, 10:56 PM
Stopped reading after that. lol

of course you did. Nobody exists outside of awesomeness unless they wear a Spurs uniform, except if they don't fit your agenda...

SPURSFAN1
10-16-2014, 10:58 PM
of course you did. Nobody exists outside of awesomeness unless they wear a Spurs uniform, except if they don't fit your agenda...

Except you're 100% wrong on this one. Tim Duncan and then Kobe are miles ahead of Lebron. Your hate for the Spurs is too great now. You're becoming delusional now.

goingfor28
10-16-2014, 11:02 PM
When LeBron retires (10+ years from now) he'll be retiring either #1 or #2 in history. I don't really care which it is. It was a privilege to be able to watch Michael play, and it's a privilege to see LeBron play.
0 chance he retires 1 or 2. Top 5 maybe. Likely top 10. No way 1 or 2 though

Hawkeye15
10-16-2014, 11:05 PM
Except you're 100% wrong on this one. Tim Duncan and then Kobe are miles ahead of Lebron. Your hate for the Spurs is too great now. You're becoming delusional now.

my hate hahahaha?

Nah, LeBron is the best individual player we have seen since Jordan. Duncan is easily top 8, Kobe top 10. LeBron will finish top 3-4.

Dude, do you ever get sick of being so one sided in your arguments? I mean, rhetorical question, I don't expect anything rational from you, only asking because I like typing I guess..

SPURSFAN1
10-16-2014, 11:12 PM
my hate hahahaha?

Nah, LeBron is the best individual player we have seen since Jordan. Duncan is easily top 8, Kobe top 10. LeBron will finish top 3-4.

Dude, do you ever get sick of being so one sided in your arguments? I mean, rhetorical question, I don't expect anything rational from you, only asking because I like typing I guess..

I haven't seen anyone make a case to have Lebron over Duncan, neither can you.

P&GRealist
10-16-2014, 11:34 PM
That's why he's the GOAT

JLeBeau76
10-16-2014, 11:38 PM
I haven't seen anyone make a case to have Lebron over Duncan, neither can you.

Props to Duncan for being awesome but he's benefited greatly from an awesome coach, a favorable system and a front office that knows what its doing.

LeBron is by far the better physical specimen. His court vision is way better than Duncans as well, not to mention he's just a much more versatile and dynamic player.

Again, I say this out of a ton of respect for both Duncan and the Spurs. Both are the posterchild for how superstars and organizations should model themselves after.

P&GRealist
10-16-2014, 11:41 PM
I haven't seen anyone make a case to have Lebron over Duncan, neither can you.

League MVP = 5 points (over a course of 82 games)

Finals MVP = 3 points (over a span of 4-7 games; small sample size)

All Star MVP = 2 points

NBA Title = 4 points (it's a team award)

Olympic Gold Medal (2 points)

Olympic Bronze Medal (1 point)




Duncan with 5 titles (20 points), 1 All Star MVP (2 points), 3 finals MVPs (9 points) and 2 league MVPs (10 points), 1 Olympic Bronze medal (1 point) = 42 points


LeBron with 2 titles (8 points), 2 All Star MVPs (4 points), 2 finals MVPs (6 points) and 4 league MVPs (20 points), 1 Olympic Bronze medal (1 point) and 2 Olympic Gold medals (4 points) = 43 points


LeBron 43 - Duncan 42


LeBron > Duncan

FlashBolt
10-17-2014, 12:51 AM
Can he play 1 on 5 and beat a team by himself If he wanted to?

This is why you LeBron-haters can't take things into context. When did I say that? I said if he specifically wanted to be a defender and not be relied on to carry his team 24/7, he can defend against the PF/C. He's done it before in short stints because he simply doesn't have enough in the tank to duke it out with Dwight/Noah for an entire game, while also having to play wing on the offensive end.. So stop with the trolling responses and create a legitimate reply. We know he can GUARD them. No way Jordan can guard 1-5. That is why LeBron is such a versatile defender. To be big enough to guard PF/C and quick enough to guard PG's (locked down Rose), and other wings? Name one defender outside of Pippen who was that versatile.

FlashBolt
10-17-2014, 12:55 AM
I haven't seen anyone make a case to have Lebron over Duncan, neither can you.

Not that I agree with James>Duncan, but you are genuinely known as a disgraceful poster. I really never met someone who rooted for the Spurs act the way you do. It's just mindboggling because as much as we disagree with Amost1er, he puts work into his post(s). Something you don't do but simply resort to:
1) Duncan 5>2
2) Duncan 6"11

Meaningless crap with no background.

You haven't seen anyone make a case for LeBron but you haven't made a case for Duncan. I don't know if you're just spewing nonsense or simply too lazy to do some research. We know he has 5 rings. How? Because Popovich is the real MVP of that team. Without Pop, more-so without Duncan, Spurs would be a mess. Only one coach can make a bench play better than a starting team...

flea
10-17-2014, 01:02 AM
This is why you LeBron-haters can't take things into context. When did I say that? I said if he specifically wanted to be a defender and not be relied on to carry his team 24/7, he can defend against the PF/C. He's done it before in short stints because he simply doesn't have enough in the tank to duke it out with Dwight/Noah for an entire game, while also having to play wing on the offensive end.. So stop with the trolling responses and create a legitimate reply. We know he can GUARD them. No way Jordan can guard 1-5. That is why LeBron is such a versatile defender. To be big enough to guard PF/C and quick enough to guard PG's (locked down Rose), and other wings? Name one defender outside of Pippen who was that versatile.

For one thing, he's just not particularly good as a big defender. He offers basically no rim protection and he plays relatively soft. You can hide him on an offensively weak PF but you're asking for trouble if you think he can check guys like Duncan, Dirk, or Griffin consistently.

For another thing, being a good defender is not about doing it for 4 or 5 possessions here and there. It's about doing it every trip down the floor, making fewer mental errors than your opponent, and having the endurance to perform at a high level. Nobody said being a 2-way player is easy - that's why guys like Duncan, MJ, KAJ, and Hakeem are unique. Saying you're a good defender because every once in a while you'll handle a team's best offensive player is like saying JR Smith is a top 5 offensive performer because when he gets hot he is unstoppable.

There are a number of 1-5 defenders in every generation. They are nice for your scheme, especially if you have a few and can switch a lot, but unless they are actually good at defending their position it's usually just a luxury like a good rebounding guard. Lebron isn't even a top 10 defender in his generation, and while his versatility is nice let's not get carried away with things.

FlashBolt
10-17-2014, 01:10 AM
For one thing, he's just not particularly good as a big defender. He offers basically no rim protection and he plays relatively soft. You can hide him on an offensively weak PF but you're asking for trouble if you think he can check guys like Duncan, Dirk, or Griffin consistently.

For another thing, being a good defender is not about doing it for 4 or 5 possessions here and there. It's about doing it every trip down the floor, making fewer mental errors than your opponent, and having the endurance to perform at a high level. Nobody said being a 2-way player is easy - that's why guys like Duncan, MJ, KAJ, and Hakeem are unique. Saying you're a good defender because every once in a while you'll handle a team's best offensive player is like saying JR Smith is a top 5 offensive performer because when he gets hot he is unstoppable.

There are a number of 1-5 defenders in every generation. They are nice for your scheme, especially if you have a few and can switch a lot, but unless they are actually good at defending their position it's usually just a luxury like a good rebounding guard. Lebron isn't even a top 10 defender in his generation, and while his versatility is nice let's not get carried away with things.

The argument was whether or not James could guard 1-5 as someone said Jordan can't. But James can guard them for a short stint. That's what I'm elaborating on. Of course he will have trouble against some bigger guys, but that's what we've seen when he's being depended on to be their; scorer, rebounder, playmaker, leader, etc,. Let's put him as a DEFENDER and let everyone else handle the scoring, rebounding, and playmaking. Blake Griffin, Duncan, Nowitzki. None of those guys are relied on to handle all aspects of the game. Again, put the right circumstances on LeBron and tell him to be a defender. I'm willing to bet against the odds that he won't be a great defender from 1-5. But if you're saying he can't guard TD, BG, DN while also having to be the leading scorer, rebounder, etc,., of course he can't. No one in their capacity can. And Duncan/MJ/KAJ/Hakeem are perfectly bad examples. We are talking about 1-5 defenders. There is zero chance outside of Hakeem (maybe), that those guys are 1-5 defenders. None of them have the capacity to achieve that. James on the other hand, DOES. He is quick enough to chase PG's, strong enough to not get backed down consistently, and he's also a very smart help defender. Which to my point, we've never seen anyone guard 1-5 but James/Pippen are certainly the closest we'll ever witness.

amos1er
10-17-2014, 01:24 AM
not surprised since he's the best player since jordans retirement.

Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan might have something to say about that.

flea
10-17-2014, 01:27 AM
Marion, Battier, Artest, Bowen, Worthy, Rodman, etc. all put Lebron to shame as versatile defenders. Then there are guys like Bird, Magic, Kemp, and Hakeem that were athletic and big enough to do with Lebron does in short stints. Hell, even in this generation, you could put guys like George, Barnes, Carroll, Diaw, and Ariza in the same category as Lebron defensively.

flea
10-17-2014, 01:30 AM
I also forgot AK47 and Deng, 2 of the generation's best all-purpose defenders.

FlashBolt
10-17-2014, 01:31 AM
Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan might have something to say about that.

Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan might have something to say about that in any generation pre or after Jordan. I do think James at his peak was better, though. Just a matter of whether or not you rate longevity at this point. LeBron has the individual accolades to back it up. Rings is a different story.

amos1er
10-17-2014, 01:35 AM
No its not, call me crazy but I think that Lebron will surpass MJ in every statistic by the end of his career

Jordan's career stats are currently above Lebron's without factoring in declining years. Now factor in Lebron's declining years which will likely begin very soon and it won't even be close. Now factor in six rings, ten scoring titles, one DPOY, countless late game heroics, and no failures in the finals and this whole comparison itself becomes quite blasphemous. They really do need to put an age limit on this site. Come to think of it, Lebron can't do a single thing on par or greater than Jordan. Jordan is superior in every way possible and would never have failed on such a big stage with such a talented supporting cast. Please don't insult Jordan by mentioning his name with Lebron every again. Thank you.

amos1er
10-17-2014, 01:38 AM
This is clearly a troll thread. Nobody can possibly believe that Lebron is similar to Jordan in any way shape or form.

amos1er
10-17-2014, 01:42 AM
Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan might have something to say about that in any generation pre or after Jordan. I do think James at his peak was better, though. Just a matter of whether or not you rate longevity at this point. LeBron has the individual accolades to back it up. Rings is a different story.

I don't count advanced stats as individual accolades. There in lies our discrepancy.

Better advanced stats does not necessarily mean better player... Otherwise D-Rob would be considered greater than Magic and Bird.

cahawk
10-17-2014, 01:44 AM
Why are kobe's PER/TS%/WS48 Stats so much weaker than MJ & Lebron?

amos1er
10-17-2014, 01:50 AM
Why are kobe's PER/TS%/WS48 Stats so much weaker than MJ & Lebron?

Perhaps the flaw lies in with the stats themselves. Why is D-Rob's advanced stats greater than Bird and Magic... Does that mean he is a greater player than them...

PER and WS48 are not cannon people. If they were, then why aren't teams hiring stat guru's to manage their teams instead of dudes with tons of actual real life experience.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-17-2014, 02:11 AM
1A and 1B when they retire.

Crackadalic
10-17-2014, 02:26 AM
Perhaps the flaw lies in with the stats themselves. Why is D-Rob's advanced stats greater than Bird and Magic... Does that mean he is a greater player than them...

PER and WS48 are not cannon people. If they were, then why aren't teams hiring stat guru's to manage their teams instead of dudes with tons of actual real life experience.

Stats evaluate individual game. D-Rob advance stats probably shows he impacts the game more then those two when on the floor but obvious Magic and Bird had the better careers and playoff performances.

Remember D-Rob didn't have the HOF players Magic and Bird started with and it wasn't until Duncan getting better that he finally won

Raps18-19 Champ
10-17-2014, 02:30 AM
I don't count advanced stats as individual accolades. There in lies our discrepancy.

Better advanced stats does not necessarily mean better player... Otherwise D-Rob would be considered greater than Magic and Bird.

There's not one person who simply looks at advanced stats to determine which players are better. Stop alluding to that.

IKnowHoops
10-17-2014, 04:38 AM
Except you're 100% wrong on this one. Tim Duncan and then Kobe are miles ahead of Lebron. Your hate for the Spurs is too great now. You're becoming delusional now.

miles ahead of a guy who has more MVP's higher Winshares higher PER and just as many Finals MVP's. There is absolutely no logic here.

IKnowHoops
10-17-2014, 04:45 AM
Marion, Battier, Artest, Bowen, Worthy, Rodman, etc. all put Lebron to shame as versatile defenders. Then there are guys like Bird, Magic, Kemp, and Hakeem that were athletic and big enough to do with Lebron does in short stints. Hell, even in this generation, you could put guys like George, Barnes, Carroll, Diaw, and Ariza in the same category as Lebron defensively.

This post is pure garbage, not one of these guys can cover the ground that Lebron can to chase down and block someone from behind, therefore none of them can do what Bron was doing in any stint. None of these guys can guard all five positions. Most of these guys cannot shut down Tony parker and Derrick Rose for any stint. Awful lies.

IKnowHoops
10-17-2014, 04:47 AM
Jordan's career stats are currently above Lebron's without factoring in declining years. Now factor in Lebron's declining years which will likely begin very soon and it won't even be close. Now factor in six rings, ten scoring titles, one DPOY, countless late game heroics, and no failures in the finals and this whole comparison itself becomes quite blasphemous. They really do need to put an age limit on this site. Come to think of it, Lebron can't do a single thing on par or greater than Jordan. Jordan is superior in every way possible and would never have failed on such a big stage with such a talented supporting cast. Please don't insult Jordan by mentioning his name with Lebron every again. Thank you.

Actually your wrong. Lebron is a better passer, and a more efficient scorer than Mike.

IKnowHoops
10-17-2014, 05:42 AM
I don't count advanced stats as individual accolades. There in lies our discrepancy.

Better advanced stats does not necessarily mean better player... Otherwise D-Rob would be considered greater than Magic and Bird.

Drob is better than both, they just played on way better teams in there primes. Let Drob in his prime play with Worthy and Kareem. Or Dennis Johnson, Kevin Mchale, and Chief all in there prime.

David one two rings with less talent when he was old and decrepit.

Those guys have more Rings, David has more stats.

Hawkeye15
10-17-2014, 06:05 AM
This is clearly a troll thread. Nobody can possibly believe that Lebron is similar to Jordan in any way shape or form.

nope, he isn't similar, meaning, his game isn't the same at all. However, his impact is the best we have seen since Jordan played in his Bulls days. Their games are indeed different though, you are right.

Hawkeye15
10-17-2014, 06:06 AM
I don't count advanced stats as individual accolades. There in lies our discrepancy.

Better advanced stats does not necessarily mean better player... Otherwise D-Rob would be considered greater than Magic and Bird.

you are a walking contradiction with your statements. You act as if context isn't used by intelligent posters.

kdspurman
10-17-2014, 08:52 AM
This post is pure garbage, not one of these guys can cover the ground that Lebron can to chase down and block someone from behind, therefore none of them can do what Bron was doing in any stint. None of these guys can guard all five positions. Most of these guys cannot shut down Tony parker and Derrick Rose for any stint. Awful lies.

Those guys were defensive specialists... It's what they did. I don't doubt they could do what Lebron did at all. Several of those guys have guarded 1-5, Lebron isn't the only dude to have done that. Some were better than others like Bowen, Battier, Marion, Artest, Rodman, Pippen etc... They've all done it though. And they were extremely successful

ewing
10-17-2014, 10:27 AM
nope, he isn't similar, meaning, his game isn't the same at all. However, his impact is the best we have seen since Jordan played in his Bulls days. Their games are indeed different though, you are right.


I agree with your post but if you were to take a step father and say Bron impact was equal to or close to MJ's i would call BS. No one was on Micheal's level then and no one is now

FlashBolt
10-17-2014, 11:57 AM
I don't count advanced stats as individual accolades. There in lies our discrepancy.

Better advanced stats does not necessarily mean better player... Otherwise D-Rob would be considered greater than Magic and Bird.

D-Rob's greatness is undervalued because Spurs never truly won with him being THE MAN. Had he had Tim Duncan at his prime, they would have dominated the league for years. Possibly, eliminating the Bulls each and every season. D-Rob with a PG like Stockton or a SG like Drex would have won rings. Simply put, D-Rob's impact was great. A sign of advanced metrics being a good idea of how it works is that we all generalize Jordan as the GOAT. Well, he ranks above everyone at PER/WS. That means something.

FlashBolt
10-17-2014, 11:59 AM
Marion, Battier, Artest, Bowen, Worthy, Rodman, etc. all put Lebron to shame as versatile defenders. Then there are guys like Bird, Magic, Kemp, and Hakeem that were athletic and big enough to do with Lebron does in short stints. Hell, even in this generation, you could put guys like George, Barnes, Carroll, Diaw, and Ariza in the same category as Lebron defensively.


I also forgot AK47 and Deng, 2 of the generation's best all-purpose defenders.

All those guys you mentioned were primarily defenders. None of them were forced to do what LeBron did at all facets of the game. So what you're seeing is a player who's coach told him "Don't do anything but guard that man." That's not the case for LeBron. Through the course of an entire game, LeBron has to be the best scorer, defender, rebounder, playmaker, passer, and leader. That's been since day 1 of his NBA career. Imagine if you told LeBron to not do any of those things and focus just on defending. I'm more than confident he would have the energy to contain 1-5.

Chronz
10-17-2014, 12:24 PM
If they were, then why aren't teams hiring stat guru's to manage their teams instead of dudes with tons of actual real life experience.
Wait what? Dont even care about the point you are trying to make but this is just wrong.

The best player in the history of this game has hired some guy with zilch real life experience to run his team, hes had the best run of success as an exec ever since. Cuban runs his team with everyone giving input, stat guys included. Why are you acting like its just the real life exp. guys running everything? Basketball isn't rocket science, but an understanding of stats is never a negative and its something that has been taking over the league really. Mostly for scouting and development but thats enough to get some of the old school traditionalist that run teams to fear for their job security.

ewing
10-17-2014, 03:03 PM
D-Rob's greatness is undervalued because Spurs never truly won with him being THE MAN. Had he had Tim Duncan at his prime, they would have dominated the league for years. Possibly, eliminating the Bulls each and every season. D-Rob with a PG like Stockton or a SG like Drex would have won rings. Simply put, D-Rob's impact was great. A sign of advanced metrics being a good idea of how it works is that we all generalize Jordan as the GOAT. Well, he ranks above everyone at PER/WS. That means something.

If your litmus test for evaluating a stat is weather it can discern that Micheal Jordan was the best you maybe easily lead

Hawkeye15
10-17-2014, 03:10 PM
I agree with your post but if you were to take a step father and say Bron impact was equal to or close to MJ's i would call BS. No one was on Micheal's level then and no one is now

I am not sure it is much less however. The one thing that did separate them was that Jordan was just such a huge scorer over his career, defenses really game planned for him a lot more in that department than they do LeBron. So no, I don't think LeBron impacts a game as much as Jordan did, when it all boils down to it. Hell, I don't think he IMPACTED a game as much as Shaq, even though I think LeBron is the better player. Not sure even Jordan impacted a game like Shaq did, if we are talking the pure definition. Shaq changed an entire game strategy nightly.

Hawkeye15
10-17-2014, 03:24 PM
I don't count advanced stats as individual accolades. There in lies our discrepancy.

Better advanced stats does not necessarily mean better player... Otherwise D-Rob would be considered greater than Magic and Bird.

do you count MVP's as accolades?

There is a bunch of crap that goes into ranking a player for sure. But be careful, you constantly crap on LeBron and push up Kobe, and you know that by career end, LeBron will have more awards and accolades.

By age 30:

Jordan:
ROY
9 time all star
8 time all NBA
6 time all Defense
3 MVP's
3 Finals MVPs
3 championships
led the league 7 times in PER
led the league 7 times in Win Shares
led the league 6 times in WS/48

LeBron:
ROY
9 time all star
10 time all NBA
6 time all Defense
4 MVPs
2 Finals MVPs
2 Championships
led the league 6 times in PER
led the league 5 times in Win Shares
led the league 5 times in WS/48


Kobe:
11 time all star
11 time all NBA
9 time all Defense
1 MVP
1 Finals MVP
4 Championships
led the league 0 times in PER
led the league 0 times in Win Shares
led the league 0 times in WS/48

all great resumes, but I take the first 2 all day over the third. Now, the first and third have their career written (Kobe will break MJ's scoring record, and possibly add another all star game to it), but the second is still in his prime, though probably on the downslope of it, and will continue to pile up the awards.

Jordan, and even Kobe, had great success after 30. What LeBron does the next 5 years will dictate where he lands all time.

JLynn943
10-17-2014, 03:48 PM
Coincidence? It's clearly a conspiracy.

IKnowHoops
10-17-2014, 04:00 PM
Those guys were defensive specialists... It's what they did. I don't doubt they could do what Lebron did at all. Several of those guys have guarded 1-5, Lebron isn't the only dude to have done that. Some were better than others like Bowen, Battier, Marion, Artest, Rodman, Pippen etc... They've all done it though. And they were extremely successful

None of those guys were anywhere near the athletic freak Bron was, and to some degree still is. They were great defenders but you didn't have to be aware of where Bruce Bowen was fearing that he could come out of nowhere to make a play no human being should be able to make. Thats the difference.

IKnowHoops
10-17-2014, 04:07 PM
None of those guys were anywhere near the athletic freak Bron was, and to some degree still is. They were great defenders but you didn't have to be aware of where Bruce Bowen was fearing that he could come out of nowhere to make a play no human being should be able to make. Thats the difference.


And then to add to that, you weren't worried that after he made the play, you weren't worried about Bowen taking it the turnover the other way for the Jam. Bowen was a great defender no doubt, but if Bron was able to just focus on D and forget about offense, he could of been 3x the defender that Bowen was. And in spurts Bron was by far the best defender in any capacity in the NBA, but when your putting up 30/7/7 its hard/impossible to give Bowen like defensive effort on that end of the court. When you put up 30/7/7 you have an excuse to play in spurts and when he did he made plays that no other player in NBA history could of made.

example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bcf0rne-FpU

Nobody mentioned can make that play, thus none of them are Bron, and yes here he is as fast as Allen Iverson.

IKnowHoops
10-17-2014, 04:15 PM
If your litmus test for evaluating a stat is weather it can discern that Micheal Jordan was the best you maybe easily lead

Any stat that defines court impact should discern that though.

IKnowHoops
10-17-2014, 04:18 PM
I am not sure it is much less however. The one thing that did separate them was that Jordan was just such a huge scorer over his career, defenses really game planned for him a lot more in that department than they do LeBron. So no, I don't think LeBron impacts a game as much as Jordan did, when it all boils down to it. Hell, I don't think he IMPACTED a game as much as Shaq, even though I think LeBron is the better player. Not sure even Jordan impacted a game like Shaq did, if we are talking the pure definition. Shaq changed an entire game strategy nightly.

True Story

ewing
10-17-2014, 04:19 PM
Any stat that defines court impact should discern that though.

I hope so, my Mom probably discerned it vacuum cleaning while i watched hoops

sammyvine
10-17-2014, 04:41 PM
skill vs skill he isn't better than jordan. no way.

IKnowHoops
10-17-2014, 04:51 PM
skill vs skill he isn't better than jordan. no way.

God given ability vs God given ability Jordan isn't better than Bron either.

5ass
10-17-2014, 05:52 PM
No coincidence, he's the best player since Jordan. Very, very few players were as good as prime LeBron.

amos1er
10-17-2014, 05:53 PM
nope, he isn't similar, meaning, his game isn't the same at all. However, his impact is the best we have seen since Jordan played in his Bulls days. Their games are indeed different though, you are right.

Similar impact!?! Really... How so. Jordan didn't need to leave his team for a stint to form a super team to win his rings. Jordan also never failed in the finals to the degree Lebron did now THREE TIMES!!! Jordan was a far superior scorer (10 scoring titles and countless accolades that Lebron isn't close to sniffing) and defender (1 DPOY). Jordan could create his own shot from anywhere on the floor and be somewhat efficient, while Lebron's offensive repertoire is severely lacking in comparison. Lebron can only score from a limited amount of ways... Mostly on fast breaks and driving to the hoop and getting bailed out by the refs. Which brings me to the point that his free throw percentage is also severely lacking meaning that he is not as reliable in crunch time because he is afraid of getting fouled because more times than not, he can't make the free throws. From a fantasy league standpoint without factoring in any declining years for Lebron, they may be similar, but as far as impact on the court, they couldn't be more far apart.

amos1er
10-17-2014, 05:54 PM
No coincidence, he's the best player since Jordan. Very, very few players were as good as prime LeBron.

What are you basing this off of... Your clearly attempting to pass off your personal opinion as fact once again.

amos1er
10-17-2014, 05:56 PM
God given ability vs God given ability Jordan isn't better than Bron either.

That could also be said about Kwame Brown, Greg Oden, and countless others who had God given ability, but underachieved as well. Point being... God given ability is only meaningful depending on what you do with it.

amos1er
10-17-2014, 05:59 PM
Wait what? Dont even care about the point you are trying to make but this is just wrong.

The best player in the history of this game has hired some guy with zilch real life experience to run his team, hes had the best run of success as an exec ever since. Cuban runs his team with everyone giving input, stat guys included. Why are you acting like its just the real life exp. guys running everything? Basketball isn't rocket science, but an understanding of stats is never a negative and its something that has been taking over the league really. Mostly for scouting and development but thats enough to get some of the old school traditionalist that run teams to fear for their job security.

The most successful guys in any profession are the ones with the most hands on experience. Hence the reason why Phil Jackson and Jerry West are the most successful coach and GM of all-time.

Money ball was an interesting theory, but it only got Oakland so far.

amos1er
10-17-2014, 06:03 PM
Any stat that defines court impact should discern that though.

How can a novice such as yourself possibly claim to quantify court impact. Even by looking at stats from basketball reference.com, you still aren't qualified to interpret them in any sort of meaningful way. All you can to is look at the numbers some other stat guru invented and say which of them has the greater sum. Thats it. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about past that point.

amos1er
10-17-2014, 06:05 PM
you are a walking contradiction with your statements. You act as if context isn't used by intelligent posters.

What people consider an intelligent poster can vary from person to person... Especially depending on what they are either agreeing with or disagreeing with.

amos1er
10-17-2014, 06:09 PM
D-Rob's greatness is undervalued because Spurs never truly won with him being THE MAN. Had he had Tim Duncan at his prime, they would have dominated the league for years. Possibly, eliminating the Bulls each and every season. D-Rob with a PG like Stockton or a SG like Drex would have won rings. Simply put, D-Rob's impact was great. A sign of advanced metrics being a good idea of how it works is that we all generalize Jordan as the GOAT. Well, he ranks above everyone at PER/WS. That means something.

It might mean something, but it will never be close to meaning that he is a greater player than Magic, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, West, Big O, or Moses. Clearly whatever stat implies as such must be flawed in some way.

amos1er
10-17-2014, 06:15 PM
do you count MVP's as accolades?

There is a bunch of crap that goes into ranking a player for sure. But be careful, you constantly crap on LeBron and push up Kobe, and you know that by career end, LeBron will have more awards and accolades.

By age 30:

Jordan:
ROY
9 time all star
8 time all NBA
6 time all Defense
3 MVP's
3 Finals MVPs
3 championships
led the league 7 times in PER
led the league 7 times in Win Shares
led the league 6 times in WS/48

LeBron:
ROY
9 time all star
10 time all NBA
6 time all Defense
4 MVPs
2 Finals MVPs
2 Championships
led the league 6 times in PER
led the league 5 times in Win Shares
led the league 5 times in WS/48


Kobe:
11 time all star
11 time all NBA
9 time all Defense
1 MVP
1 Finals MVP
4 Championships
led the league 0 times in PER
led the league 0 times in Win Shares
led the league 0 times in WS/48

all great resumes, but I take the first 2 all day over the third. Now, the first and third have their career written (Kobe will break MJ's scoring record, and possibly add another all star game to it), but the second is still in his prime, though probably on the downslope of it, and will continue to pile up the awards.

Jordan, and even Kobe, had great success after 30. What LeBron does the next 5 years will dictate where he lands all time.

I am only being honest. Not crapping on Lebron. Lebron is close to top ten of all-time for sure. I never denied that. But for Lebron to get close to Jordan, he still has to pass Kobe and according to most of the influential basketball minds on this planet, he still has yet to do so. So lets not prop up Lebron prematurely even though that has been the trend since before he even was drafted into the NBA.

5ass
10-17-2014, 06:29 PM
What are you basing this off of... Your clearly attempting to pass off your personal opinion as fact once again.

Based on stats and accolades. Prove me wrong.

Goose17
10-17-2014, 06:42 PM
It might mean something, but it will never be close to meaning that he is a greater player than Magic, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, West, Big O, or Moses. Clearly whatever stat implies as such must be flawed in some way.

LOL.. Kobe? Lebron is significantly better than Kobe. It's not even close.

I'm tired of how much people overrate kobe.

Goose17
10-17-2014, 06:43 PM
I am only being honest. Not crapping on Lebron. Lebron is close to top ten of all-time for sure. I never denied that. But for Lebron to get close to Jordan, he still has to pass Kobe and according to most of the influential basketball minds on this planet, he still has yet to do so. So lets not prop up Lebron prematurely even though that has been the trend since before he even was drafted into the NBA.

He surpassed Kobe long ago. Kobe is barely a top 10 player all time. Lebron is scrapping his way into the top 5.

Goose17
10-17-2014, 06:46 PM
Similar impact!?! Really... How so. Jordan didn't need to leave his team for a stint to form a super team to win his rings.

Because he had a competent GM that formed a super team for him. Oh and arguably the greatest coach of all time.

Lebron had an incompetent GM and below average coach who couldn't build a team around him to save their lifes. Jordan probably would have done the same in that situation. He was just blessed to be in a good situation, he never had to leave.

This is a typical Lebron hater/Kobe fan boy argument that they fall back on all the time.

Lebron just did what his GM wasn't capable of doing. Forming a good squad. I applaud him for it. If he had been with a team that could bring in players the caliber of Rodman, Pippen, Shaq and Pau etc I'm pretty sure he would have stayed.

SPURSFAN1
10-17-2014, 07:02 PM
5 rings and counting with 3 finals MVPs vs 2 rings and 2 finals mvps. Yeah Lebron is totally better than Duncan. Not to mention all those 50 win seasons since their rookie years. :clap: Finals matchups 2(2 no contests) >1 (7game series). That impact doe.

SPURSFAN1
10-17-2014, 07:13 PM
More turnovers than assists and could only score when they were already blown out. That impact doe. :laugh:

IKnowHoops
10-17-2014, 07:17 PM
That could also be said about Kwame Brown, Greg Oden, and countless others who had God given ability, but underachieved as well. Point being... God given ability is only meaningful depending on what you do with it.

kwame Brown and Greg Oden have more God given ability than Jordan? Hahaha, you have no idea what God given ability is.

IKnowHoops
10-17-2014, 07:20 PM
How can a novice such as yourself possibly claim to quantify court impact. Even by looking at stats from basketball reference.com, you still aren't qualified to interpret them in any sort of meaningful way. All you can to is look at the numbers some other stat guru invented and say which of them has the greater sum. Thats it. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about past that point.

Im a novice, yet you think Kwame Brown and Greg Oden have more God given ability than Jordan. Sorry, can't really tai a guy seriously who thinks this. Maybe you should make another dupe account and agree with yourself here.

amos1er
10-17-2014, 07:43 PM
Im a novice, yet you think Kwame Brown and Greg Oden have more God given ability than Jordan. Sorry, can't really tai a guy seriously who thinks this. Maybe you should make another dupe account and agree with yourself here.

LMAO!!! Talk about putting words in my mouth... When did I ever say that Kwame Brown and Greg Oden had more god given ability than Jordan. Please quote me, I would love to know when I said that.

I used them as examples because both were taken number one in their respective drafts to prove a point that God given ability doesn't mean anything unless you do something with it and work hard to constantly improve yourself.

Please don't misquote me like that. Though I do find your attempts at discrediting me humorous on some level. Lol.

InRoseWeTrust
10-17-2014, 07:47 PM
Don't feel like reading the entire thread, but what the is the topic implying? That the NBA is rigging stats?

amos1er
10-17-2014, 07:48 PM
kwame Brown and Greg Oden have more God given ability than Jordan? Hahaha, you have no idea what God given ability is.

Where did you even get that from.

I don't even know how one would even begin to quantify "God given" ability to begin with when we are dealing with physical specimens so close in stature. Point being, in the grand scheme of the NBA and it's players, God given ability is dime a dozen and I don't even know why you would bring it up to compare two athletes anyways. It's all about the end result anyways. Truly a zero sum game you are playing here.

amos1er
10-17-2014, 07:52 PM
More turnovers than assists and could only score when they were already blown out. That impact doe. :laugh:

Yup... I started a thread about that exact topic and it got shut down of course. They all have nothing to say about that of course. According to them it was all his teammates fault and he played magnificently. You just have to lol at the level of denial the average fanboy can create for himself.

IKnowHoops
10-17-2014, 07:56 PM
Where did you even get that from.

I don't even know how one would even begin to quantify "God given" ability to begin with when we are dealing with physical specimens so close in stature. Point being, in the grand scheme of the NBA and it's players, God given ability is dime a dozen and I don't even know why you would bring it up to compare two athletes anyways. It's all about the end result anyways. Truly a zero sum game you are playing here.

I said Lebron had more God Given ability than Jordan

Than you said "same could be said for Kwame Brown and Greg Oden"

SPURSFAN1
10-17-2014, 07:58 PM
Yup... I started a thread about that exact topic and it got shut down of course. They all have nothing to say about that of course. According to them it was all his teammates fault and he played magnificently. You just have to lol at the level of denial the average fanboy can create for himself.

lol I know man. Some people here tend to ignore these things, because they don't understand the game.

FlashBolt
10-18-2014, 12:59 AM
More turnovers than assists and could only score when they were already blown out. That impact doe. :laugh:

How do you get assists? When your teammates score points. How do you get a turnover? When the opponent pressures you.

Miami couldn't make a damn shot no matter how open they were. Mario Chalmers couldn't score even if the rim was 3 inches away from him. San Antonio pressured James the entire game because no one else was simply worth pressuring. That's a fact. All you have are empty numbers with zero background. Come back with a logical and well-detailed response and then maybe someone here could take you seriously (besides the notorious Kobe-lovers crew of PSD). KdSpursFan is a true Spurs fan. You're just a clueless LeBron-hater who wants to jump to the greatest dynasty of our generation. I think it is you who needs to understand the game. It's a known fact that no one here agrees with anything you have to say. Resort to your previous posts in which you use the same replies backed with no information at all. "Could only score when they were already blown out." You just answered your own question. They were getting blown out because his team couldn't score.. hence, assist numbers were down. That Spurs team played perfect basketball. Anyone who has a brain would tell you that. Miami outside of LeBron/Lewis just couldn't play. Stop being a bigot and seeking for attention.

amos1er
10-18-2014, 02:38 AM
I said Lebron had more God Given ability than Jordan

Than you said "same could be said for Kwame Brown and Greg Oden"

You took me out of context... I was meaning that God given ability doesn't mean **** unless you capitalize on it. I used them as examples because they were all number one overall picks that didn't pan out even though they had a lot of God given ability. I was not comparing who had the greater God given ability between the four. Far too subjective of an argument for me to make.

naps
10-18-2014, 02:41 AM
No surprise here. There is a reason why he will end up as the second greatest player of all time. None can replace MJ from that #1 spot but LeBron will for sure replace Kareem or Wilt from that #2. Already the second greatest wing player to ever grace the hardwood.

amos1er
10-18-2014, 02:49 AM
No surprise here. There is a reason why he will end up as the second greatest player of all time. None can replace MJ from that #1 spot but LeBron will for sure replace Kareem or Wilt from that #2. Already the second greatest wing player to ever grace the hardwood.

Attempting to pass off your own opinion as fact again I see.

naps
10-18-2014, 02:58 AM
Attempting to pass off your own opinion as fact again I see.

Kobe is not in LeBron's or Jordan's league, sorry.

Goose17
10-18-2014, 03:37 AM
Attempting to pass off your own opinion as fact again I see.

And that's different from what you're doing... how?

P&GRealist
10-18-2014, 04:06 AM
Kobe is not in LeBron's or Jordan's league, sorry.

True that.

Btw, are you back to being a Cavs fan again?

Hawkeye15
10-18-2014, 04:35 AM
I am only being honest. Not crapping on Lebron. Lebron is close to top ten of all-time for sure. I never denied that. But for Lebron to get close to Jordan, he still has to pass Kobe and according to most of the influential basketball minds on this planet, he still has yet to do so. So lets not prop up Lebron prematurely even though that has been the trend since before he even was drafted into the NBA.

which ones? And for the millionth time, even if you do believe Kobe is ranked higher right now all time, do you see anyway, outside of LeBron getting hit by a truck, that he doesn't pass Kobe?

Hawkeye15
10-18-2014, 04:36 AM
5 rings and counting with 3 finals MVPs vs 2 rings and 2 finals mvps. Yeah Lebron is totally better than Duncan. Not to mention all those 50 win seasons since their rookie years. :clap: Finals matchups 2(2 no contests) >1 (7game series). That impact doe.

Did you know, there are actually a bunch of teams outside of the great city of San Antonio, that employ professional basketball players? You should wiki it, it will blow your mind...

amos1er
10-18-2014, 05:19 AM
And that's different from what you're doing... how?

I state my opinion for what it is... An opinion. Read through my post history if you need more evidence. I don't feel like wasting my time any further justifying myself to you.

amos1er
10-18-2014, 05:20 AM
Kobe is not in LeBron's or Jordan's league, sorry.

Care to back that up with more than just your opinion. Are you even capable of such a feat...

amos1er
10-18-2014, 05:23 AM
which ones? And for the millionth time, even if you do believe Kobe is ranked higher right now all time, do you see anyway, outside of LeBron getting hit by a truck, that he doesn't pass Kobe?

So you just assume Lebron will win more rings and will play at peak level for the next 4-5 seasons. Well, you all have been crediting him accolades he didn't yet earn since he was still in High School so why should I expect it to change anytime soon.

Goose17
10-18-2014, 05:46 AM
I state my opinion for what it is... An opinion. Read through my post history if you need more evidence. I don't feel like wasting my time any further justifying myself to you.

And that's what he is doing. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make him wrong.

In his opinion, and in the opinion of many Lebron is the best player since Jordan. Whether or no you agree with that is irrelevant. Nobody cares. It's just opinions.

Goose17
10-18-2014, 05:47 AM
Care to back that up with more than just your opinion. Are you even capable of such a feat...

Care to prove him wrong with some evidence?

SPURSFAN1
10-18-2014, 08:17 AM
Did you know, there are actually a bunch of teams outside of the great city of San Antonio, that employ professional basketball players? You should wiki it, it will blow your mind...

Hawk is officially a throll now. Everyone knows you hate the spurs for no reason.

amos1er
10-18-2014, 08:21 AM
Care to prove him wrong with some evidence?

Oh... Answering a question with another question... How clever. :rolleyes:

amos1er
10-18-2014, 08:29 AM
And that's what he is doing. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make him wrong.

In his opinion, and in the opinion of many Lebron is the best player since Jordan. Whether or no you agree with that is irrelevant. Nobody cares. It's just opinions.

When people fail to use disclaimers such as (IMO) or other similar prepositional phrases and or acronyms they can be easily mistaken for passing off their opinions as fact rather than a simple stand alone opinion. Knowing that particular posters history and allegiance to Lebron, it's a safe bet to assume the former.

amos1er
10-18-2014, 08:33 AM
True that.

Btw, are you back to being a Cavs fan again?

Lol.

Goose17
10-18-2014, 11:16 AM
Oh... Answering a question with another question... How clever. :rolleyes:

Not really. But why should he have to provide evidence to back up his argument if you don't? You're acting as if Kobe being better is the status quo and accepted world wide by everyone, so any argument against it has to be proven with concrete evidence.

When in truth, it's all down to opinion and your opinion is no more valuable than his, in fact with your blatant homerism and obvious trolling, your opinion is worth significantly less. So if he needs to provide evidence, so do you.

Goose17
10-18-2014, 11:17 AM
When people fail to use disclaimers such as (IMO) or other similar prepositional phrases and or acronyms they can be easily mistaken for passing off their opinions as fact rather than a simple stand alone opinion. Knowing that particular posters history and allegiance to Lebron, it's a safe bet to assume the former.

Right but I've never seen you say "IMO" yet. You're doing the same thing, acting as if it's a fact that Kobe is better and providing no evidence whatsoever to support it.

IKnowHoops
10-18-2014, 01:06 PM
More turnovers than assists and could only score when they were already blown out. That impact doe. :laugh:

So what were you saying the year before when Bron did the Spurs, and Larry Bird said it was the best post season run by a single player ever?

Just curious.

FlashBolt
10-18-2014, 10:50 PM
Hawk is officially a throll now. Everyone knows you hate the spurs for no reason.

Hawk is a troll? That's you.. How do you figure that the roles are reversed? Lol..

Attempting to pass off your own opinion as fact again I see.

When the majority of people disagree with you, then you're the minority. You believe in what you believe but you can have a poll debating LeBron vs Kobe and odds are, LeBron will be ahead of Kobe. And trust me.. I'll be the first to tell you that Kobe>Bron RIGHT NOW, but I acknowledge that I'm the minority and there is certainly a case for LeBron>Kobe. 4 MVP's>1. Statistically stronger than Kobe can ever imagine. Led a historically weak team to the best record/NBA Finals. People come to play with Bron.. can't say the same the other way. Remember when Randle was drafted by the Lakesr? "Those teams that passed up on me will regret it." He didn't want to be drafted by the Lakers... As for Kobe's rings, three of those were with the most dominating player and a player who many have ranked above Kobe.. Shaq at his prime, I think you'll find more than a sufficient amount of people taking Shaq at #1. He was THAT good. So I can't really merit those three rings as if it was something really special. Don't get me wrong, Kobe had his moments where he stepped up but that was all Shaq.

amos1er
10-19-2014, 04:50 PM
Hawk is a troll? That's you.. How do you figure that the roles are reversed? Lol..


When the majority of people disagree with you, then you're the minority. You believe in what you believe but you can have a poll debating LeBron vs Kobe and odds are, LeBron will be ahead of Kobe. And trust me.. I'll be the first to tell you that Kobe>Bron RIGHT NOW, but I acknowledge that I'm the minority and there is certainly a case for LeBron>Kobe. 4 MVP's>1. Statistically stronger than Kobe can ever imagine. Led a historically weak team to the best record/NBA Finals. People come to play with Bron.. can't say the same the other way. Remember when Randle was drafted by the Lakesr? "Those teams that passed up on me will regret it." He didn't want to be drafted by the Lakers... As for Kobe's rings, three of those were with the most dominating player and a player who many have ranked above Kobe.. Shaq at his prime, I think you'll find more than a sufficient amount of people taking Shaq at #1. He was THAT good. So I can't really merit those three rings as if it was something really special. Don't get me wrong, Kobe had his moments where he stepped up but that was all Shaq.

Around here on PSD, yes we are both in the minority with that opinion. However, PSD is an outlier and most of the respected minds in basketball know that Kobe > Lebron presently. Leborn needs a few more rings without the Superfriends show before we can have this debate. The average age of posters on here is less than 25... That is why we have such wacky opinions on this topic and others. The top knowledgable posters on this site that aren't bias will still agree that Kobe > Lebron at the present moment.

BTW... Paragraphs are your friend.

Chronz
10-19-2014, 10:44 PM
The most successful guys in any profession are the ones with the most hands on experience. Hence the reason why Phil Jackson and Jerry West are the most successful coach and GM of all-time.

Money ball was an interesting theory, but it only got Oakland so far.
I dont care bro, even if it were true, this has nothing to do with your theory:

If they were, then why aren't teams hiring stat guru's to manage their teams instead of dudes with tons of actual real life experience.

Its simply not true, the experienced guys are still losing out on those jobs. I dont care about whether its right or wrong but it is happening. Thats all Im focusing on here. I really dont know what you classify as "hands on". The games best player is letting the guy with less on-court experience because of his IQ in other areas.

5ass
10-19-2014, 11:17 PM
When people fail to use disclaimers such as (IMO) or other similar prepositional phrases and or acronyms they can be easily mistaken for passing off their opinions as fact rather than a simple stand alone opinion. Knowing that particular posters history and allegiance to Lebron, it's a safe bet to assume the former.

Lol I don't have an allegiance to LeBron. Grow out of that childish thinking, I only defend LeBron when he gets underrated. Same with any other player, it just happens to LeBron most often. I dont like Dwight, but still defend him when he's underrated. The problem is that you hate LeBron so much you fail to see that. In your head you are too busy fighting this holy war for your god Kobe. You are too blinded to think rationally.

Jeffy25
10-19-2014, 11:26 PM
I've noticed it before.

But it's worth pointing out, that they are still two different kinds of players.

Lebron plays ball like Magic, and he is the best to ever do that

Jordan plays ball like Kobe, and he is the best to ever do that

It's two different styles of play, that can be equally as valuable.

Both can bring the ball down, and both can run an offense and a defense.

Lebron is a better play maker for other players when he has the ball. Jordan is better at creating his own shots and shooting at a very high percentage from further away. Lebron needs to get closer to the basket to shoot as well as Jordan, but because of his size, he can usually get there any way.

Lebron can play as well as Jordan defensively, but it appears sometimes that he doesn't care to. Which if there is any separation from the two, it's that Lebron seems to turn it on and off when he wants to. And I didn't like seeing how Lebron could be controlled by Leonard in the Finals. I don't recall anyone ever controlling Jordan like that.

Lebron is going to end up with more minutes than Jordan all time because I doubt Lebron takes time off or retires particularly early. Which will probably allow Lebron to surpass Jordan all time in a lot of categories. But Lebron also hasn't had the decline that Jordan had (two years with the Wizards hurts these rate numbers), which he still has yet to have, which might lower him efficiency wise to Jordan.

What I will find most interesting, is how Lebron will decide to age himself. He seemed to have lost a lot of Barry Bonds like weight. So I'm wondering if he intends to stay more of a wing position big guy.....or if he'll age and become more of a Karl Malone like player, who becomes a PF who can run the offense and defense from there.

Lebron can end up becoming the GOAT. But for most people to accept that possibility, he'll need more chips (not entirely up to him there) and he'll need to age well and continue these rate numbers for awhile to catch him.

I have no doubt he'll surpass Jordan in Win Shares all-time, and probably settle in the top 3 in that category. If he plays long enough, he could top Kareem there too. If he can simply get 5 more seasons at 15 Wins each, then he would be on Wilt's door, and only need 3-5 years of regression to catch Kareem. He'd be 39, with ten seasons to try and get a couple more rings. He'd absolutely belong in the GOAT conversation. Hell, he'd also probably become the all-time scorer at that point too, and he would be able to do that without actually winning scoring titles.

Hawkeye15
10-20-2014, 07:22 PM
Hawk is officially a throll now. Everyone knows you hate the spurs for no reason.

no, I can't stand your posts. Big difference.