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View Full Version : Will Kobe Bryant pass Michael Jordan on all-time points list?



%%%%
10-16-2014, 12:02 AM
Will it happen this year?

And how will the NBA celebrate this achievement?

Cal827
10-16-2014, 12:03 AM
Maybe.

Matter.
10-16-2014, 12:04 AM
Maybe.

%%%%
10-16-2014, 12:06 AM
Right now,

3 - Michael Jordan 32,292
4 - Kobe Bryant 31,700

592 points

http://espn.go.com/nba/history/leaders

The only season that Kobe hasn't hit 592 points was last year when he played in 6 games.

goingfor28
10-16-2014, 12:09 AM
Yes he will

Bruno
10-16-2014, 12:14 AM
most likley. missing last year killed his shot at passing Karl, and MJ/KAJ in the post season though.

amos1er
10-16-2014, 12:35 AM
Baring anything catastrophic happening I would have to say yes.

jerellh528
10-16-2014, 01:30 AM
If he averages about 20ppg for 30 games he should do it. Will he play 30 games? Who knows.

Confusious
10-16-2014, 01:52 AM
Probably. But there will always be an asterisk.

Jordan achieved it in 1072 games played.
Kobe achieves it in 1245+ games played.

Huge difference.

jerellh528
10-16-2014, 02:03 AM
Probably. But there will always be an asterisk.

Jordan achieved it in 1072 games played.
Kobe achieves it in 1245+ games played.

Huge difference.

Wow kobes longevity is great. Doubt a lot more will be able to play as good for as long as he has

amos1er
10-16-2014, 02:18 AM
Probably. But there will always be an asterisk.

Jordan achieved it in 1072 games played.
Kobe achieves it in 1245+ games played.

Huge difference.

Having come off the bench for his first two seasons and playing with Shaq (The number six highest scorer of all-time) for his first eight seasons, I don't really see how your meager asterisk taints the great accomplishment Kobe will likely achieve in the first 30 games of this coming season. Your little dig can be easily seen through by even the most novice of poster.

FYI... You could have at least used shot attempts instead of games played like all the other haters do if you wanted to add some credibility to your trolling.

%%%%
10-16-2014, 02:32 AM
Kobe is 36 years old, and he has 31,700. He has two years on his current contract.

If we assume optimistically that he stays healthy and averages 2,000 points each year, that will give 35,700 --- 1,228 behind The Mailman and 2,687 behind Jabbar. Kobe will also be 38 years old at this time.

In this scenario, he has a great chance at passing Malone (in 1 good season) and a decent at catching Jabbar (2 good seasons of 1,350 points at ages 38 and 39. Malone got 3,455 points at this age)

Of course, that's the optimistic scenario.

If you go conservative and assume he averages 1,700 points in the next two seasons, then he'll be 35,100 -- 1,828 behind Malone and 3,287 behind Jabbar.

Look, Malone from his age 35-36 season (99-00) to his age 40-41 season (03-04) accrued 9,146 points. If Kobe can duplicate that performance, he hits 40,000 points and retires as #1 on the all-time scoring record, likely creating an unbreakable record.

Crackadalic
10-16-2014, 03:15 AM
Yes he will

P&GRealist
10-16-2014, 04:05 AM
Sure, but doesn't erase the fact that he raped that white chick in the butt in Colorado.

Offdaheezy
10-16-2014, 04:23 AM
Having come off the bench for his first two seasons and playing with Shaq (The number six highest scorer of all-time) I don't really see how your meager asterisk means much to the great accomplishment Kobe will likely achieve in the first 30 games of the season. Your little dig can be easily seen through by even the most novice of poster.

FYI... You could have at least used shot attempts instead of games played like all the other haters do if you wanted to add some credibility to your trolling.


So you don't like the fact that Kobe played with Shaq?

Ok, so Kobe only has 2 rings.

P&GRealist
10-16-2014, 04:28 AM
So you don't like the fact that Kobe played with Shaq?

Ok, so Kobe only has 2 rings.

How did you confuse rings with points scored in games played argument?


FAIL

Ty22Mitchell
10-16-2014, 04:53 AM
Having come off the bench for his first two seasons and playing with Shaq (The number six highest scorer of all-time) I don't really see how your meager asterisk means much to the great accomplishment Kobe will likely achieve in the first 30 games of the season. Your little dig can be easily seen through by even the most novice of poster.

FYI... You could have at least used shot attempts instead of games played like all the other haters do if you wanted to add some credibility to your trolling.


Great post. I wanted to call you a kobephole, but I checked the stats. Mj 24,537 and Mr. Bryant 24,374. It's surprising that Kobe is actually in the MJ ballpark in this one. The shooting percentage in culmination do say that Mr Bryant shoots more threes though.

Question. Is MJ still a DRASTICALLY (bolded, keyword) more efficient scorer than Mr Bryant if he's at 32,292 on 24,537 shots (49 fg per) compared Mr Bryants 31,700 on 24,374 shots (45 fg per)? Doesn't this stat justify Kobe taking the amount of threes that he does?

Offdaheezy
10-16-2014, 05:29 AM
How did you confuse rings with points scored in games played argument?


FAIL

Because he was saying Kobe scored less points because he was playing with Shaq.
So if he wasn't playing with Shaq, will he win those 3 rings?

Would you choose rings or points?

Tony_Starks
10-16-2014, 06:03 AM
Having come off the bench for his first two seasons and playing with Shaq (The number six highest scorer of all-time) for his first eight seasons, I don't really see how your meager asterisk taints the great accomplishment Kobe will likely achieve in the first 30 games of this coming season. Your little dig can be easily seen through by even the most novice of poster.

FYI... You could have at least used shot attempts instead of games played like all the other haters do if you wanted to add some credibility to your trolling.

Lol! This.

Confusious
10-16-2014, 10:02 AM
Having come off the bench for his first two seasons and playing with Shaq (The number six highest scorer of all-time) for his first eight seasons, I don't really see how your meager asterisk taints the great accomplishment Kobe will likely achieve in the first 30 games of this coming season. Your little dig can be easily seen through by even the most novice of poster.

FYI... You could have at least used shot attempts instead of games played like all the other haters do if you wanted to add some credibility to your trolling.
And how many seasons did MJ miss due to (multiple) retirements? Uh huh. Exactly.

Riodagoat
10-16-2014, 11:08 AM
Yes he will. If he plays finishes out his contract and plays majority of the games, he might even go further up the list.

mightybosstone
10-16-2014, 03:37 PM
Knowing Kobe Bryant, the man would crawl across the court with two broken legs and throw the basketball up at the rim for 48 minutes a game just to pass Jordan at anything. I'll go as far to say that I guarantee he passes MJ.

P&GRealist
10-16-2014, 04:00 PM
Knowing Kobe Bryant, the man would crawl across the court with two broken legs and throw the basketball up at the rim for 48 minutes a game just to pass Jordan at anything. I'll go as far to say that I guarantee he passes MJ.

That's probably true, seeing as how he blew his Achilles and still limped to the free throw line to swish both free throws.

amos1er
10-16-2014, 04:20 PM
And how many seasons did MJ miss due to (multiple) retirements? Uh huh. Exactly.

And how exactly would that effect the amount of games each played...

amos1er
10-16-2014, 04:21 PM
Knowing Kobe Bryant, the man would crawl across the court with two broken legs and throw the basketball up at the rim for 48 minutes a game just to pass Jordan at anything. I'll go as far to say that I guarantee he passes MJ.

Wow Bosstone!!! You are a much better poster these days. Keep up the good work!!!

Hawkeye15
10-16-2014, 04:24 PM
Probably. But there will always be an asterisk.

Jordan achieved it in 1072 games played.
Kobe achieves it in 1245+ games played.

Huge difference.

well yeah, that summarizes Kobe though. While he doesn't have the absolute peak of nearly every other top 10 player, if not all of them, his ridiculous longevity, and ranking as a top 3-5 player for freaking ever are why he is rated so high all time.

I think he will reach it, the only thing that stops him is if his body quits on him 20 games in. But all he would have to do is play 58 games and average 10 a night.

amos1er
10-16-2014, 04:28 PM
Because he was saying Kobe scored less points because he was playing with Shaq.
So if he wasn't playing with Shaq, will he win those 3 rings?

Would you choose rings or points?

So can we then take Pippen away from Jordan as well because without him, Jordan would likely have zero rings. Your playing a zero sum game here and throwing in quite the red herring to the mix at that. The amount of championships Kobe and Jordan won have nothing to do with this topic. Try again...

Additionally, how does taking away Shaq also change the fact that Kobe came off the bench for his first two seasons...

Hawkeye15
10-16-2014, 04:30 PM
Because he was saying Kobe scored less points because he was playing with Shaq.
So if he wasn't playing with Shaq, will he win those 3 rings?

Would you choose rings or points?

Would Magic have won a ring without Jabbar/Worthy/Wilks?
Would Bird have won a ring without McHale/Parish/Walton/Cedric/DJ?
Would Duncan have won a ring without Parker/Robinson/Ginoboli?
Would LeBron have won a ring without Wade/Bosh?

cmon dude, even the greatest players need other great players to win a chip, its that hard to do.

Hawkeye15
10-16-2014, 04:32 PM
So can we then take Pippen away from Jordan as well because without him, Jordan would likely have zero rings. Your playing a zero sum game here and throwing in quite the red herring to the mix at that. The amount of championships Kobe and Jordan won have nothing to do with this topic. Try again...

Additionally, how does taking away Shaq also change the fact that Kobe came off the bench for his first two seasons...

I always like Eddie Jones at Temple.

mightybosstone
10-16-2014, 04:32 PM
Wow Bosstone!!! You are a much better poster these days. Keep up the good work!!!

You're reading my post as a straight compliment. I don't know that it entirely was. Yes, Kobe Bryant is one of the most determined, hard-working professional athletes I've ever had the pleasure to watch play the game of basketball. I respect him for that. At the same time, he's also one of the most ego driven and obsessive professional athletes I've ever watched. So I suppose that coin has two sides to it.

amos1er
10-16-2014, 04:33 PM
well yeah, that summarizes Kobe though. While he doesn't have the absolute peak of nearly every other top 10 player, if not all of them,

Where do you get this stuff from... Lol... What are you basing this off of...


his ridiculous longevity, and ranking as a top 3-5 player for freaking ever are why he is rated so high all time.

Yet even more subjective opinion based argument you are attempting to pass of as fact.


I think he will reach it, the only thing that stops him is if his body quits on him 20 games in. But all he would have to do is play 58 games and average 10 a night.

Yes, the smart money would go towards him passing Jordan on the all-time points list. Not even sure why this is a thread topic.

Hawkeye15
10-16-2014, 04:36 PM
Where do you get this stuff from... Lol... What are you basing this off of...

we have covered this before. His absolute peak numbers don't stand up to almost anyone else in the top 10's peak numbers. Pull an example if you wish.


Yet even more subjective opinion based argument you are attempting to pass of as fact.

nah, my opinion. Of which is shared by many, not that I need justification to have my own opinion after watching/studying the NBA for 30 years.


Yes, the smart money would go towards him passing Jordan on the all-time points list. Not even sure why this is a thread topic.

I don't know why it is either, he would have to re-injur himself and retire for him to not catch Jordan.

amos1er
10-16-2014, 04:50 PM
You're reading my post as a straight compliment. I don't know that it entirely was. Yes, Kobe Bryant is one of the most determined, hard-working professional athletes I've ever had the pleasure to watch play the game of basketball. I respect him for that. At the same time, he's also one of the most ego driven and obsessive professional athletes I've ever watched. So I suppose that coin has two sides to it.

The two go hand and hand in most cases. Just look at guys like Muhammad Ali, Floyd Mayweather, Tiger Woods, and even Jordan and Wilt. I could argue that all of these guys were just as if not more egotistical and obsessed than Kobe. Yet for some reason, Kobe is the only one that gets constantly chastised for it, while the other guys I mentioned are celebrated. Ali and Mayweather talked more **** and were more disrespectful than any other professional athlete I have ever witnessed. Tiger was proven to have multiple mistresses under his payroll, while Kobe is hung for only one proven night of infidelity. Not to mention Tiger took Kuwaiti oil money to do an event during the recent war to host an event for them. Jordan punched Steve Kerr in the face during practice and had a gambling problem, Wilt once said in an interview that he could have scored over 100 even easier in the modern era and that his overall stats would have been even better not to mention his claim that he ****ed over 25,000 women. It just goes with the territory. If you are going to hold it against Kobe, then you have to hold it against all of them too.

amos1er
10-16-2014, 04:57 PM
we have covered this before. His absolute peak numbers don't stand up to almost anyone else in the top 10's peak numbers. Pull an example if you wish.

Which numbers are these you refer too...

His scoring and defensive prowess are top five easily. Not to mention the fact that he lead all five of his championship teams in assists... All teams which were tops in the league at the time.


nah, my opinion. Of which is shared by many, not that I need justification to have my own opinion after watching/studying the NBA for 30 years.

Cool, we are all entitled to our own opinions. There are also many top notch NBA coaches, athletes, analysts, and experts who disagree. I would say that these opinions are in the majority, though I could not prove it with quantifiable numbers of course. I could however find five credible opinions for everyone you find I would wager and have posted links to the video evidence many times on here.



I don't know why it is either, he would have to re-injur himself and retire for him to not catch Jordan.

Yup. Knock on wood that he doesn't.

Hawkeye15
10-16-2014, 05:09 PM
Which numbers are these you refer too...

His scoring and defensive prowess are top five easily. Not to mention the fact that he lead all five of his championship teams in assists... All teams which were tops in the league at the time.



Cool, we are all entitled to our own opinions. There are also many top notch NBA coaches, athletes, analysts, and experts who disagree. I would say that these opinions are in the majority, though I could not prove it with quantifiable numbers of course. I could however find five credible opinions for everyone you find I would wager and have posted links to the video evidence many times on here.




Yup. Knock on wood that he doesn't.

Yep, he is a top 5 volume scorer ever, for sure. There are plenty of other aspects to the game. Again, I know we have gone over this before (defensive prowess, really?), but pull any other player in the top 10, and show me where Kobe's peak was better.

Idk, it seems every analyst, coach, whatever, has him right about where I do, 10th, from what I stumble across here and there. Outliers exist, and will have him 5th, or hell, even 15th, but the majority of people that are involved with, or study the game, have him anywhere from 8-12. Right where I do...

I actually just have a tier system now, because it's trivial at times to argue over a spot or two. As long as someone isn't putting him in a tier above or below where I have him, I figure why debate?

mightybosstone
10-16-2014, 05:10 PM
The two go hand and hand in most cases. Just look at guys like Muhammad Ali, Floyd Mayweather, Tiger Woods, and even Jordan and Wilt. I could argue that all of these guys were just as if not more egotistical and obsessed than Kobe. Yet for some reason, Kobe is the only one that gets constantly chastised for it, while the other guys I mentioned are celebrated. Ali and Mayweather talked more **** and were more disrespectful than any other professional athlete I have ever seen. Tiger was proven to have multiple mistresses under his payroll, while Kobe is hung for only one proven night of infidelity. Not to mention Tiger took Kuwaiti oil money to do an event during the recent war to host an even for them. Jordan punched Steve Kerr in the face during practice and had a gambling problem, Wilt once said in an interview that he could have scored over 100 even easier in the modern era and that his overall stats would have been even better not to mention his claim that he ****ed over 25,000 women. It just goes with the territory. If you are going to hold it against Kobe, then you have to hold it against all of them too.

Oh, I do hold it against most of those guys to some extent. I've always criticized Wilt for his ego, and I've never been much of a Mayweather fan. I still think its ridiculous how much love Jordan gets when he was such a prick on and off the court at times. Yeah, I loved Space Jam as a kid as much as the next guy, and I have no doubt in my mind that he was the greatest player who ever lived. But the public persona and the reality of Michael Jordan are two completely different things.

The difference between those guys and Kobe is that they had no peers at the time of their dominance. Kobe has always been looking up at Jordan's career and clawing his way toward it no matter how many hours of practice it took or shots he needed to take. And I don't necessarily think that makes him a gargantuan ******* either. I think it's very human to want to be the best at what you do and to strive for that every day. But I also think there are things Kobe could have done to make his teams more successful over his career. Like improve his 3-point shot and overall shot selection and not force Shaq out of LA when the two were dominating the league in the 2000s.

So, yeah, I both respect Kobe for it and criticize him for it.

PowerHouse
10-16-2014, 05:14 PM
This is seriously a question?

Kobe is only 592 points away. Thats averaging only 7.2 ppg. Even I can go out there and average 7.2 ppg. It might be on 15% shooting but I'll do it.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-16-2014, 05:15 PM
Easily.

Bruno
10-16-2014, 05:20 PM
we have covered this before. His absolute peak numbers don't stand up to almost anyone else in the top 10's peak numbers. Pull an example if you wish.

Peak playoff WS/48 during seasons with finals appearences:

Russell- .286 (65, 12 games), .257 (62, 14 games)
Magic- .265 (87, 18 games), .231 (82, 14 games)
Bird- .263 (86, 18 games) .236 (84, 23 games)
Kobe- .260 (01, 16 games), .238 (09, 23 games)
Hakeem- .231 ( 86, 20 games) .208 (94, 23 games)

i think you've gone slightly overboard in saying Kobes peak doesn't compare to anyones in the top ten. to Shaq, MJ, KAJ, Wilt? totally, you're right. but you've lumped in these other 3-4 GOATs (Magic, Bird, Russell, Hakeem) with them and I don't think that's accurate. i've got two post-seasons worth of examples per player from one of the more respected advanced lines out there that say that Kobe was just as peaked out as the rest of the bottom half of the top ten. I think the sample size is fine, 40 or so games (less in russell and magics case) per player during their most legendary and historic runs; that's as absolute peak as the definition gets, while maintaining a respectable sample sze, imo. he's right there man.

even Duncan who I don't include in the above grouping isn't lightyears ahead of this group in peak post-season production:

.279 (03, 24 games), .243 (99, 17 games)

i think Kobe has earned his due in the past two decades, and it's more than just longevity that's done it.

nickdymez
10-16-2014, 05:34 PM
well yeah, that summarizes Kobe though. While he doesn't have the absolute peak of nearly every other top 10 player, if not all of them, his ridiculous longevity, and ranking as a top 3-5 player for freaking ever are why he is rated so high all time.

I think he will reach it, the only thing that stops him is if his body quits on him 20 games in. But all he would have to do is play 58 games and average 10 a night.
I miss Hawkeye and his "kobe is only an all time great because of his longevity" posts.

amos1er
10-16-2014, 06:03 PM
Yep, he is a top 5 volume scorer ever, for sure. There are plenty of other aspects to the game. Again, I know we have gone over this before (defensive prowess, really?), but pull any other player in the top 10, and show me where Kobe's peak was better.

Well, the same could be said about Jordan in terms of volume scoring. Both lead their teams to multiple championships with that style so there must be something to it I would imagine. What are there other aspects you speak of. You keep saying that Kobe's peak is not on the level of the top ten players of all-time... In terms of what do you speak... Magic, Russell, Hakeem, and Duncan alone were similar or not on his level in terms of most advanced stats. Even you have admitted many times that Kobe passed Bird a while back. In terms of defense, yes, it's hard to compare him with most top all-time bigs due to the position he played, but for his position, he was definitely top tier. He even had the same amount of first place votes KG did when he won DPOY back in 2008. Defensively it's pretty safe to say that Kobe is better than Magic and Bird and most have them ranked pretty high up there.


Idk, it seems every analyst, coach, whatever, has him right about where I do, 10th, from what I stumble across here and there. Outliers exist, and will have him 5th, or hell, even 15th, but the majority of people that are involved with, or study the game, have him anywhere from 8-12. Right where I do...

I challenge you to name me one credible opinion where he is the 10th best of all-time. Heck, even Lebron himself had Kobe best in the league from 2005-2010. Even Skip Bayless who was a long time Kobe critic back in the day had him at number 8 back in 2011. Shaq who was his longtime rival has Kobe well ahead of Lebron currently and Wade recently ranked him number two all-time. Name me one credible opinion that agrees with you please...[/QUOTE]


I actually just have a tier system now, because it's trivial at times to argue over a spot or two. As long as someone isn't putting him in a tier above or below where I have him, I figure why debate?

That's fair, however it is debatable what tier one falls into and where the cut off points lie.

amos1er
10-16-2014, 06:23 PM
Oh, I do hold it against most of those guys to some extent. I've always criticized Wilt for his ego, and I've never been much of a Mayweather fan. I still think its ridiculous how much love Jordan gets when he was such a prick on and off the court at times. Yeah, I loved Space Jam as a kid as much as the next guy, and I have no doubt in my mind that he was the greatest player who ever lived. But the public persona and the reality of Michael Jordan are two completely different things.

The difference between those guys and Kobe is that they had no peers at the time of their dominance. Kobe has always been looking up at Jordan's career and clawing his way toward it no matter how many hours of practice it took or shots he needed to take. And I don't necessarily think that makes him a gargantuan ******* either. I think it's very human to want to be the best at what you do and to strive for that every day. But I also think there are things Kobe could have done to make his teams more successful over his career. Like improve his 3-point shot and overall shot selection and not force Shaq out of LA when the two were dominating the league in the 2000s.

So, yeah, I both respect Kobe for it and criticize him for it.

The only thing I take issue with is your criticism of Kobe for how he didn't do everything in his power to make his teammates better. kobe has done a far better job in getting the most of his teammates in comparison to Lebron James. Guys like Luke Walton, Brian Cook, Vlad Rad, Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Andrew Bynum, Trevor Ariza, Sasha Vujacic, Jordan Farmar, Ronny Turiaf, and countless others have had their best seasons and performed at a very high level when playing with Kobe compared to not. Even guys like Odom, Pau, and Shaq all had their best seasons with Kobe and fell off considerably after leaving the Lakers. Pau didn't even win a playoff game before teaming up with Kobe and Odom made sixth man of the year. Kobe's teammates all say that he is very hard core, but other than Smush Parker, all have held him in very high esteem including Shaq to this day.

Kobe running Shaq out of town was a rumor started by haters and was never backed up by Shaq himself... In fact, on a recent episode on Inside The NBA, Shaq came out and said that it was a money issue as to why he left LA and that it had nothing to do with Kobe...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7LOi1F4DwE

Let's just stop giving life to these rumors that simply aren't true.

amos1er
10-16-2014, 06:29 PM
Peak playoff WS/48 during seasons with finals appearences:

Russell- .286 (65, 12 games), .257 (62, 14 games)
Magic- .265 (87, 18 games), .231 (82, 14 games)
Bird- .263 (86, 18 games) .236 (84, 23 games)
Kobe- .260 (01, 16 games), .238 (09, 23 games)
Hakeem- .231 ( 86, 20 games) .208 (94, 23 games)

i think you've gone slightly overboard in saying Kobes peak doesn't compare to anyones in the top ten. to Shaq, MJ, KAJ, Wilt? totally, you're right. but you've lumped in these other 3-4 GOATs (Magic, Bird, Russell, Hakeem) with them and I don't think that's accurate. i've got two post-seasons worth of examples per player from one of the more respected advanced lines out there that say that Kobe was just as peaked out as the rest of the bottom half of the top ten. I think the sample size is fine, 40 or so games (less in russell and magics case) per player during their most legendary and historic runs; that's as absolute peak as the definition gets, while maintaining a respectable sample sze, imo. he's right there man.

even Duncan who I don't include in the above grouping isn't lightyears ahead of this group in peak post-season production:

.279 (03, 24 games), .243 (99, 17 games)

i think Kobe has earned his due in the past two decades, and it's more than just longevity that's done it.

Very nice points... I wonder how he will respond to this... My guess is that he won't even acknowledge it.

FlashBolt
10-16-2014, 06:43 PM
The only thing I take issue with is your criticism of Kobe for how he didn't do everything in his power to make his teammates better. kobe has done a far better job in getting the most of his teammates in comparison to Lebron James. Guys like Luke Walton, Brian Cook, Vlad Rad, Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Andrew Bynum, Trevor Ariza, Sasha Vujacic, Jordan Farmar, Ronny Turiaf, and countless others have had their best seasons and performed at a very high level when playing with Kobe compared to not. Even guys like Odom, Pau, and Shaq all had their best seasons with Kobe and fell off considerably after leaving the Lakers. Pau didn't even win a playoff game before teaming up with Kobe and Odom made sixth man of the year. Kobe's teammates all say that he is very hard core, but other than Smush Parker, all have held him in very high esteem including Shaq to this day.

Kobe running Shaq out of town was a rumor started by haters and was never backed up by Shaq himself... In fact, on a recent episode on Inside The NBA, Shaq came out and said that it was a money issue as to why he left LA and that it had nothing to do with Kobe...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7LOi1F4DwE

Let's just stop giving life to these rumors that simply aren't true.

If you're trying to instigate that Kobe>LeBron in terms of being a leader, that is simply a fallacy. Phil Jackson has publicly ranted about Kobe's leadership along with his former teammates. While I do think the only one's who've complained about Kobe is due to how competitive he is, there is no way Kobe>LeBron in terms of bringing the best out of teammates.

amos1er
10-16-2014, 06:49 PM
If you're trying to instigate that Kobe>LeBron in terms of being a leader, that is simply a fallacy. Phil Jackson has publicly ranted about Kobe's leadership along with his former teammates. While I do think the only one's who've complained about Kobe is due to how competitive he is, there is no way Kobe>LeBron in terms of bringing the best out of teammates.

That's your opinion and your entitled to it, however the facts are not with you. Nearly all of Lebron's teammates have seen significant dips in their overall statistical production when playing with him while Kobe's have had their best seasons ever and have gotten very friendly contacts they would never have gotten elsewhere as a result. Just look at Andrew Bynum as an example... Even Chris Bosh came out recently and stated how frustrated it was playing with Lebron from a statistical standpoint. I would even argue that had Lebron not been so focused on his overall advanced stat line, Miami would have won 3/4 if not 4/4 championships instead of 2/4. Kobe sacrificed personal stats for the good of the team and Lebron didn't... That's the difference.

I defy you to provide me one example of Lebron making his teammates better, or at least refute one of the examples I have provided. If you cannot or do not do so, please do not even bother to reply. I have no need to read anymore unsubstantiated opinion drivel.

alexander_37
10-17-2014, 12:09 PM
Well, the same could be said about Jordan in terms of volume scoring. Both lead their teams to multiple championships with that style so there must be something to it I would imagine. What are there other aspects you speak of. You keep saying that Kobe's peak is not on the level of the top ten players of all-time... In terms of what do you speak... Magic, Russell, Hakeem, and Duncan alone were similar or not on his level in terms of most advanced stats. Even you have admitted many times that Kobe passed Bird a while back. In terms of defense, yes, it's hard to compare him with most top all-time bigs due to the position he played, but for his position, he was definitely top tier. He even had the same amount of first place votes KG did when he won DPOY back in 2008. Defensively it's pretty safe to say that Kobe is better than Magic and Bird and most have them ranked pretty high up there.



I challenge you to name me one credible opinion where he is the 10th best of all-time. Heck, even Lebron himself had Kobe best in the league from 2005-2010. Even Skip Bayless who was a long time Kobe critic back in the day had him at number 8 back in 2011. Shaq who was his longtime rival has Kobe well ahead of Lebron currently and Wade recently ranked him number two all-time. Name me one credible opinion that agrees with you please...
Please go look at the stats and re think that.

In terms of traditional stats Jordan was much better. From shooting percentage, (45.4% vs 49.7%.) Jordan scores more, more efficiently, leads Kobe in every single major statistical category and many of them it isn't close

He shoots the 3 and FT's at an almost identical % while Kobe has the edge in volume of 3's shot by a very large margin. ( .9 rpg, .8 steals per game, .5 assists per game, .3 blocks per game, .3 less turnovers per game, HOWEVER Kobe did commit .1 less fouls per game.)

In advanced stats Jordan leads in TS%, free throw rate, and murders Kobe is WS/48.

Tony_Starks
10-17-2014, 10:06 PM
If there was a statistic for the most backhanded compliments in history Kobe would easily be the King.

FlashBolt
10-18-2014, 12:49 AM
That's your opinion and your entitled to it, however the facts are not with you. Nearly all of Lebron's teammates have seen significant dips in their overall statistical production when playing with him while Kobe's have had their best seasons ever and have gotten very friendly contacts they would never have gotten elsewhere as a result. Just look at Andrew Bynum as an example... Even Chris Bosh came out recently and stated how frustrated it was playing with Lebron from a statistical standpoint. I would even argue that had Lebron not been so focused on his overall advanced stat line, Miami would have won 3/4 if not 4/4 championships instead of 2/4. Kobe sacrificed personal stats for the good of the team and Lebron didn't... That's the difference.

I defy you to provide me one example of Lebron making his teammates better, or at least refute one of the examples I have provided. If you cannot or do not do so, please do not even bother to reply. I have no need to read anymore unsubstantiated opinion drivel.

The proof is how many of his former Cleveland players are even relevant? Who was the best player James played with in Cleveland? Mo Williams. What's he doing right now? Playing in the bench.. What is Antawn Jamison doing? Hell, where the heck are Daniel Gibson/Delonte West? Most importantly, how has Mike Brown been doing? You're suggesting that teammates aren't better just based off numbers. When LeBron James was in Cleveland, they ranked 9th/6th in offense/defense rating respectively. When he left, they ranked 25/30th respectively.. Don't tell me it was because Big Z or a coaching change, or all the irrelevant players who went on to become meaningless... It was because of LeBron. Of course when you pack a talent like LeBron, there is a huge chance that statistically, his team would have some drop in numbers. Take All-Star games for a chance. Do you really expect MJ to score 38 points per game in the All-Star event? No... and that's because there simply isn't enough USG for everyone to produce. That doesn't mean they aren't "better". Phil Jackson knows more than you and I regarding Kobe. He said Kobe wasn't a leader. His former teammates have lashed out on him. For Christ's sake, no one came into the Lakers this free agency. They couldn't resign Gasol, couldn't get: Deng, Melo, Love, Bosh, or anyone... Lakers were so desperate to make some noise that they fricking traded for Jeremy Lin in what was one of the best free agencies in NBA. Countless teammates of LeBron have followed him around (call that ringchasing all you want but they clearly enjoy playing with him). Bosh was "waiting" for LeBron to make a move. The entire NBA wouldn't make a move unless James said something. That is the impact of James on a team. He changes an entire roster because if you get James, you might just get Kevin Love... or everyone else that voluntarily stated they only joined to play with him. Shawn Marion said "I only joined because of LeBron." So, you're telling me someone who will underperform playing next to LeBron will want to WILLINGLY play with him in a city that is known for their factories? Give me a break. I don't need to say anything. When numerous amount of players are willing to take less money, leave the home they lived in for years, and to come to a city like Cleveland to play with LeBron, you know it's genuine.

numba1CHANGsta
10-18-2014, 01:05 AM
There seriously needs to be a minimum of posts before you can make a new thread, I'm tired of seeing these troll's who post these type of threads who have less than 100 posts :facepalm:

jerellh528
10-18-2014, 10:23 PM
Easily. This is inevitable

slashsnake
10-19-2014, 06:17 AM
The only thing I take issue with is your criticism of Kobe for how he didn't do everything in his power to make his teammates better. kobe has done a far better job in getting the most of his teammates in comparison to Lebron James. Guys like Luke Walton, Brian Cook, Vlad Rad, Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Andrew Bynum, Trevor Ariza, Sasha Vujacic, Jordan Farmar, Ronny Turiaf, and countless others have had their best seasons and performed at a very high level when playing with Kobe compared to not. Even guys like Odom, Pau, and Shaq all had their best seasons with Kobe and fell off considerably after leaving the Lakers.



Bron with Wade and Bosh has been a bit more successful than Kobe with Nash and Dwight in my book.

Let's just stop giving life to these rumors that simply aren't true....

Fisher left in his prime, a lot more production in Golden State than with Kobe.

I hope you are kidding on Ariza, that just is flat out wrong. Houston by far.

Turiaf, more points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, per game as a Warrior than a Laker.

Kwame Browns best season was his 2nd to last one in Washington easily. Saying he was having his best year in LA is a lie.

Vujacik was traded mid year. 1.8 a game for LA, 11.4 and career highs by far the moment he was traded. Not even close again.

Radmanovic... EASILY his first few years in Seattle and not even close. You are just making stuff up here now and hoping nobody knows or cares to actually look at these guys..

Farmars best scoring, assists, shooting, seasons all not in LA...

What about Metta, Glen Rice, Eddie Jones, Karl Malone, Vlade Divac, Steve Nash, Dwight Howard, Troy Murphy, Gary Payton, Bryon Russell, Rick Fox, Horace Grant, Robert Horry, Aaron McKie, Jerome Kersey, Nick Van Excel, Byron Scott, Derek Harper, Caron Butler, JR Reid, Dennis Rodman, Joe Smith, Brian Shaw, Theo Ratliff, Matt Barnes, John Salley, Ron Harper, AC Green, JR Rider, Lindsay Hunter, Ramon Sessions, and Mitch Richmond?

All played with Kobe, all had arguably their worst seasons with him or at least far from their best. Should we instead be saying Kobe kill's all stars? That they all just die with him except Shaq and Pau? That if you give Kobe 10 HOF players, 9 will fail and have career awful seasons and 1 will succeed?


My thought.. Prime years and different situations Those guys weren't in their prime with Kobe. Shaq was. But his scoring and FG% dropped his first year with Kobe from the year before. And his FG% and scoring went up his first year after Kobe.

Pau was (though a lot more production this past year moving further out of his prime without Kobe than the previous year with him, and was improving each year in Memphis)

Bynum??? really did Kobe do something to save his knees?

Odom, again prime in LA, but his last year in Miami before LA was really good.


Sure, some of those guys had more efficient seasons with Kobe. But if we are talking that, well haven't Bosh and Wade's scoring efficiency numbers gone up (even though it takes you about 2 seconds of actually watching basketball to see Wade isn't in his physical prime the past few years)? Their team defense has gone up? Mo Williams Gooden, Ilgauskas, Birdman, Chalmers, etc etc. all much more efficient with Lebron.

Obviously it takes anyone with the slightest knowledge of basketball to see that those two players make their teammates better. That's why NBA greats have said "those guys make their teammates better".

Avenged
10-20-2014, 08:04 PM
Knowing Kobe Bryant, the man would crawl across the court with two broken legs and throw the basketball up at the rim for 48 minutes a game just to pass Jordan at anything. I'll go as far to say that I guarantee he passes MJ.

I wanna know him too.. :p

But yeah, I don't think anyone's that desperate.

Tony_Starks
10-20-2014, 08:16 PM
It will be funny to see all the backhanded compliments the haters come up with when he passes everyone's idol.

Munkeysuit
10-20-2014, 08:33 PM
Kobe will definitely surpass MJ, but I am pretty sure the league won't commemorate it...everyone knows adoration and acknowledgement of that kind comes from ESPN

Jamiecballer
10-20-2014, 09:11 PM
Where do you get this stuff from... Lol... What are you basing this off of...



Yet even more subjective opinion based argument you are attempting to pass of as fact.



Yes, the smart money would go towards him passing Jordan on the all-time points list. Not even sure why this is a thread topic.
You are like a pit bull crossed with an ostrich. While I admire the dogged determination, the opinions that you routinely mock are pretty much accepted truths by most knowledgeable basketball fans. You might have had a chance at convincing people on PSD that you were a complete moron once upon a time but unfortunately you've shown way too many glimpses of intelligent rational thought. Give up the act man. You are a fan but you aren't stupid.

Jamiecballer
10-20-2014, 09:18 PM
Very nice points... I wonder how he will respond to this... My guess is that he won't even acknowledge it.
Those are impressive numbers lessened only by how small a sample size he had to use to make it work. I don't think anyone's idea of peak is a couple of post -seasons with a generous gap in befween.

beasted86
10-21-2014, 05:55 PM
Most definitely. I actually think that's all he's playing for at this point. Scoring titles and all-time stats.... oh yeah and $24M of course, LOL!

PowerHouse
10-21-2014, 06:19 PM
This isnt the NFL, NBA contracts are guaranteed. He doesnt have to play for his 24 million.