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Mile High Champ
10-14-2014, 11:44 AM
Hey guys, It is that time of year again! Once again we kick of the PSD NBA Off-Season Player Rankings. This is the 7th year I have done this on PSD and it typically always makes for good deabte and often initates terrific discussion. Consider that when these polls first began, the likes of Baron Davis and Devin Harris were cracking these polls. Which player will you rank high this year that may get some raised eyebrows as the years pass by? Only time will tell. Please keep things civil and discuss who you feel is most fitting and deserving of being voted in each poll.

A lot has changed since last season. Tim Duncan and the San Antonio Spurs are NBA champions for the 5th time after getting some revenge for their finals loss last season to the Heat. We could be looking at the end of the big 3 era.

Let start the discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 6 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

For a player to be eligible for this years poll, they must of played in a minimum of 10 games.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best. Though we do recognize that some voters will vote based solely on potential and others by last years numbers.

2014 Off-Season PSD PF Rankings
1) Blake Griffin
2) Kevin Love
3)
4)
5)



2013 Off-Season PSD PF Rankings

1) Kevin Love
2) Blake Griffin
3) Dirk Nowitzki
4) LaMarcus Aldridge
5) Kevin Garnett
6) David Lee
7) Zach Randolph
8) Pau Gasol
9) David West
10) Serge Ibaka

2012 Off-Season PSD PF Rankings

1) Kevin Love
2) Dirk Nowitzki
3) LaMarcus Aldridge
4) Chris Bosh
5) Pau Gasol
6) Blake Griffin
7) Josh Smith
8) Zach Randolph
9) Amare Stoudemire
10) Paul Millsap

2011 Off-Season PF Rankings

1) Dirk Nowitzki
2) Amare Stoudemire
3) Pau Gasol
4) Zach Randolph
5) Chris Bosh
6) LaMarcus Aldridge
7) Kevin Love
8) Blake Griffin
9) Kevin Garnett
10) Josh Smith

2010 Off-Season PF Rankings

1) Pau Gasol
2) Dirk Nowitzki
3) Tim Duncan
4) Chris Bosh
5) Amare Stoudemire
6) Carlos Boozer
7) Kevin Garnett
8) Josh Smith
9) David Lee
10) Zach Randolph

2009 Off-Season PF Rankings

1) Tim Duncan
2) Kevin Garnett
3) Dirk Nowitzki
4) Chris Bosh
5) Amare Stoudemire
6) Pau Gasol
7) Carlos Boozer
8) Antawn Jamison
9) Rashard Lewis
10) David West

2008 Off-Season PF rankings

1) Tim Duncan
2) Kevin Garnett
3) Amare Stoudemire
4) Chris Bosh
5) Dirk Nowitzki
6) Elton Brand
7) Carlos Boozer
8) Pau Gasol
9) Antawn Jamison
10) David West

NYKnickFanatic
10-14-2014, 11:45 AM
LMA!

lowercase

Goose17
10-14-2014, 12:37 PM
Davis.

Mile High Champ
10-14-2014, 01:39 PM
LMA or Davis, who you guys?

nycericanguy
10-14-2014, 01:46 PM
AD or Dirk... I went Dirk... but AD should overtake him next year.

Then Davis... then LMA

85BearsDefense
10-14-2014, 02:23 PM
Love over Davis... just proves the incompetence of the NBA forum

Mile High Champ
10-14-2014, 02:52 PM
AD or Dirk... I went Dirk... but AD should overtake him next year.

Then Davis... then LMA

Curious to know the argument why Dirk over LMA. Especially after seeing what LMA did in the post-season last year.

Mile High Champ
10-14-2014, 02:54 PM
Love over Davis... just proves the incompetence of the NBA forum

Two vastly different players with unique skill sets. It depends on what you value. I don't know how you can call someone incompetent for voting Love number 2 after a 26 PPG, 12.5 rpg and 4.4 assist season.

Chronz
10-14-2014, 04:22 PM
Davis, just because I think this is the year his 2-way rep becomes well deserved. As an undersized center hes going to be a liability due to his youth but as a 4-man alongside a legitimate Center, hes going to be a terror. Very similar to Elvin Hayes in Houston vs what his defense became in Washington, or like KG in Minnesota then Boston.

He might push for Top-3 player in the game but he'll have to settle for this spot for now. Im usually the guy talking up Dirk at this point and after last years mini resurgence I still should be, I hope reports of his quicker release translate to an even better season but Im thinking he stagnates and Im thinking hes no longer the bonafide playoff stud worthy of the benefit of the doubt. So hes after LMA this year for me.

valade16
10-14-2014, 04:36 PM
Davis, just because I think this is the year his 2-way rep becomes well deserved. As an undersized center hes going to be a liability due to his youth but as a 4-man alongside a legitimate Center, hes going to be a terror. Very similar to Elvin Hayes in Houston vs what his defense became in Washington, or like KG in Minnesota then Boston.

He might push for Top-3 player in the game but he'll have to settle for this spot for now. Im usually the guy talking up Dirk at this point and after last years mini resurgence I still should be, I hope reports of his quicker release translate to an even better season but Im thinking he stagnates and Im thinking hes no longer the bonafide playoff stud worthy of the benefit of the doubt. So hes after LMA this year for me.

Another interesting wrinkle in this is LMA has said he's going to be taking a lot more 3-pointers this season per his coaches' instruction. Many of his shots were a couple steps inside the 3-point line anyway, so if his touch extends that far it will be interesting to see what happens to his efficiency marks should he convert many of those long 2's into 3's...

FlashBolt
10-14-2014, 05:02 PM
I don't think AD is going to be top 5 this season. Blake, CP3, KD, Bron, and Carmelo will have my vote this season.

Redrum187
10-14-2014, 06:38 PM
Dirk Nowitzki is still the most proven player over AD and LMA.

nycericanguy
10-14-2014, 10:20 PM
Curious to know the argument why Dirk over LMA. Especially after seeing what LMA did in the post-season last year.

I know he had a few monster games... but his overall PS numbers aren't exactly dominating... 26ppg on 23 shots per game? 45% from the field?

RIGHT NOW, I would much rather have Dirk than LMA.

Dirk was a 50/40/90 guy last year, and had a much higher PER. LMA beats him in rebounding, but I'll take Dirk's far superior efficiency and playmaking over a lil more rebounding.

Goose17
10-15-2014, 02:28 AM
Dirk was a 50/40/90 guy last year.

technically he was a 49/39/89 guy. May not seem like a big difference but it is. He joined the club in '07 and has been close (like this) a couple times since but hasn't really had a true 50/40/90 season since then.

mightybosstone
10-15-2014, 08:28 AM
Davis is the clear cut choice here, and I think No. 3 is a fair spot for him based on his production and performance last season. But I do think there's a strong chance he skyrockets to No. 1 on this list a year from now. All it would take would be for him to see a slight boost in production and for New Orleans to be in the playoff hunt. Although he could be a legit 25/10 guy this season and I wouldn't be shocked by that in the slightest.

As for No. 4, I'm going to keep picking Dirk until LMA proves he can be a relatively efficient scorer for a big man or Dirk is no longer the Dirk we've come to respect. But the big question is, are we counting Duncan as a PF or a C? Because he's not on this poll, but I would make a case for Duncan over LMA as well.

nycericanguy
10-15-2014, 08:39 AM
technically he was a 49/39/89 guy. May not seem like a big difference but it is. He joined the club in '07 and has been close (like this) a couple times since but hasn't really had a true 50/40/90 season since then.

I thought the numbers got rounded up... i.e anything .495 or above is 50%... but maybe I'm wrong... either way, he was very efficient.

tredigs
10-15-2014, 08:54 AM
technically he was a 49/39/89 guy. May not seem like a big difference but it is. He joined the club in '07 and has been close (like this) a couple times since but hasn't really had a true 50/40/90 season since then.

Lol, "big difference". Over the course of the season he would've needed to make 5 more FG's, 1 more 3, and 1 more free throw to be 50/40/90 (which he already rounded off to, so saying he was 49/39/89 is incorrect).

valade16
10-15-2014, 09:12 AM
I mean, I understand PSD has an infatuation with shooting efficiency as if there is nothing else that matters in Basketball. But are we going to overlook that realistically, Dirk doesn't really do anything else very well at this point in his career? He doesn't rebound anymore. He doesn't even play defense as well as he used to (and he was never great on that end anyway).

LaMarcus Aldridge literally does everything else better than Dirk except shoot the ball efficiently. I guess if LMA shot the ball 3 less times per game he'd be considered way better than he is.

Goose17
10-15-2014, 11:01 AM
Lol, "big difference". Over the course of the season he would've needed to make 5 more FG's, 1 more 3, and 1 more free throw to be 50/40/90 (which he already rounded off to, so saying he was 49/39/89 is incorrect).

No it's not incorrect. It's factually accurate. The 50/40/90 club is reserved for those who hit those targets or better. You NEVER round up.

Rounding up is cheap and sullys the name of it. Anyone who knows anything about this league would know you don't round up.

There is only 6 members of the 50/40/90 club, Nash, Bird, Price, Durant, Miller and Dirk.

If you rounded up you would double that number. The club is reserved for the elite of the elite in shooting talent. Dirk is already in there but this season was NOT a 50/40/90 season. This isn't up for debate. You are wrong. I am right. Accept it and move on.

tredigs
10-15-2014, 01:25 PM
No it's not incorrect. It's factually accurate. The 50/40/90 club is reserved for those who hit those targets or better. You NEVER round up.

Rounding up is cheap and sullys the name of it. Anyone who knows anything about this league would know you don't round up.

There is only 6 members of the 50/40/90 club, Nash, Bird, Price, Durant, Miller and Dirk.

If you rounded up you would double that number. The club is reserved for the elite of the elite in shooting talent. Dirk is already in there but this season was NOT a 50/40/90 season. This isn't up for debate. You are wrong. I am right. Accept it and move on.

Lol. Oh Goose stfu and just recognize the fact that there is no "big difference" there as you stated. It is a meaningless arbitrary benchmark that takes nothing away from his ultra elite shooting showcase last season. Me saying you were incorrect was by you rounding down. You either round the only way civilization has rounded since the beginning, or you are exact. If you're choosing to use just two digits, he had a 50/40/90 season. That is a fact.

Goose17
10-15-2014, 03:11 PM
Lol. Oh Goose stfu and just recognize the fact that there is no "big difference" there as you stated. It is a meaningless arbitrary benchmark that takes nothing away from his ultra elite shooting showcase last season. Me saying you were incorrect was by you rounding down. You either round the only way civilization has rounded since the beginning, or you are exact. If you're choosing to use just two digits, he had a 50/40/90 season. That is a fact.

No it's not a fact. You don't round up. It's a fact that he had a 49/39/89 season. That is mathematical fact.

Go look it up since you clearly don't have a clue about the rules of the 50/40/90 club. You NEVER round up.

Do you round up a players PER? No. If someone makes 299 three pointers in a season do we just round it up to 300 to make it a nice pretty whole number? No. He shot 89% from the line, not 90% it's not the same thing. 49% and 50% are not the same thing.

Stop being foolish. You dont round up. Thats not how it works. You're wrong here. Go look it up then come back and admit you were wrong or just don't bother replying.

I'm not debating this further. It's pointless. You clearly don't understand what the 50-40-90 club means. It's called the 50-40-90 and not the 49-39-89 for a reason.

mightybosstone
10-15-2014, 03:13 PM
I mean, I understand PSD has an infatuation with shooting efficiency as if there is nothing else that matters in Basketball. But are we going to overlook that realistically, Dirk doesn't really do anything else very well at this point in his career? He doesn't rebound anymore. He doesn't even play defense as well as he used to (and he was never great on that end anyway).

LaMarcus Aldridge literally does everything else better than Dirk except shoot the ball efficiently. I guess if LMA shot the ball 3 less times per game he'd be considered way better than he is.

Mmm... I think this is a bit of an overstatement. Who is the better passer? Dirk. Who turns the ball over less? Dirk. Who is clearly the superior shooter? Dirk. And the difference in scoring efficiency is pretty much night and day. It's the difference between a well below average efficiency for a big man and a hype efficient, elite offensive big man.

Sure, I'll give Aldridge an edge defensively, but it's not as significant as you would make it out to be. We're not talking about the difference between James Harden and Tony Allen here. Dirk is slightly below average and LMA is above average, but would never be considered one of the 10-15 best defensive bigs in the league. Aldridge's only huge advantage is on the glass, where he was excellent for his position last season while Dirk was well below average for an NBA PF.

But Dirk's edge offensively is really, really significant. We're talking about a 10% difference in TS% and pretty much everywhere on the floor. Here's a fun fact. For all the love that LMA gets for his elite mid-range game, he shot only 36% from 3-10 feet, 39% from 10-16 feet and 44% from 16 feet to the 3-point line. By comparison, Dirk shot 48% from 3-10 feet, 49% from 10-16 feet and 52% from 16 feet to the 3-point line. And, yeah, his number around the rim and beyond the arc also put Aldridge to shame.

tredigs
10-15-2014, 03:42 PM
No it's not a fact. You don't round up. It's a fact that he had a 49/39/89 season. That is mathematical fact.

Go look it up since you clearly don't have a clue about the rules of the 50/40/90 club. You NEVER round up.

Do you round up a players PER? No. If someone makes 299 three pointers in a season do we just round it up to 300 to make it a nice pretty whole number? No. He shot 89% from the line, not 90% it's not the same thing. 49% and 50% are not the same thing.

Stop being foolish. You dont round up. Thats not how it works. You're wrong here. Go look it up then come back and admit you were wrong or just don't bother replying.

I'm not debating this further. It's pointless. You clearly don't understand what the 50-40-90 club means. It's called the 50-40-90 and not the 49-39-89 for a reason.

Really? No, guy. And that illustrates my point. You use the exact #'s he had. A 29.9 PER is not a PER of 29. It's a PER of 29.9. Just as 89.9 FT% is not an 89. It's an 89.9. By you choosing to use just two digits, you have to round up (something you don't do as it pertains to the meaningless/arbitrary "50/40/90" club, hence why he would not be included).

I assume you still don't get it, but that's all the explanation that is necessary there.

I agree with Bosstone's post concerning LMA/Dirk by the way. Doesn't hurt that if you looked at WinsProduced, PER, WinShares, WAR, RPM, VORP, etc. Literally every one points to Dirk being more productive.

valade16
10-15-2014, 05:35 PM
Mmm... I think this is a bit of an overstatement. Who is the better passer? Dirk. Who turns the ball over less? Dirk. Who is clearly the superior shooter? Dirk. And the difference in scoring efficiency is pretty much night and day. It's the difference between a well below average efficiency for a big man and a hype efficient, elite offensive big man.

Sure, I'll give Aldridge an edge defensively, but it's not as significant as you would make it out to be. We're not talking about the difference between James Harden and Tony Allen here. Dirk is slightly below average and LMA is above average, but would never be considered one of the 10-15 best defensive bigs in the league. Aldridge's only huge advantage is on the glass, where he was excellent for his position last season while Dirk was well below average for an NBA PF.

But Dirk's edge offensively is really, really significant. We're talking about a 10% difference in TS% and pretty much everywhere on the floor. Here's a fun fact. For all the love that LMA gets for his elite mid-range game, he shot only 36% from 3-10 feet, 39% from 10-16 feet and 44% from 16 feet to the 3-point line. By comparison, Dirk shot 48% from 3-10 feet, 49% from 10-16 feet and 52% from 16 feet to the 3-point line. And, yeah, his number around the rim and beyond the arc also put Aldridge to shame.

Dirk's TO% last season was 7.5%, LMA's was 7.2%. In fact LMA has among the lowest Turnover numbers for a player who has as high a usage rate as him in the entire league. So no, Dirk does not turn the ball over less.

Dirk's AST% was 14.3%. LMA's was 13.0%. It was Dirk's highest AST% in 4 years.

And I think that's the problem. You act as if Dirk and LMA have been putting up these Shooting #'s their entire careers when in reality Dirk's efficiency last season far exceeded his efficiency the previous 2 years and LMA's was drastically worse from his previous 2 seasons.

Dirk's rim% was 77.8% last season but 62.5% and 66.1% the previous 2 seasons and his career is 64.1%. LMA's were 67.5, 69.4, and 68.7 and his career is 69.4%. So no, his numbers around the rim don't put LMA's to shame, they actually are drastically inferior overall with one what is high likely to be outlier season.

LMA at this point is better at just about everything but shooting than Dirk. if you want to say passing fine, but it is by a far smaller margin than LMA's defense and rebounding are superior to Dirk's.

mrblisterdundee
10-15-2014, 08:02 PM
These rankings are all based on which teams the power forwards play for. Anthony Davis was already more talented than Blake Griffin last year, and he'll still be more talented this year. The only reason Griffin did better offensively last year was because of Chris Paul. Davis, who's point guard Jrue Holiday played less than half the season, owned Griffin on the defensive end. The only clear advantage I give Griffin is that he's a better passer. This will be a way better comparative year.

1. Kevin Love
2. Anthony Davis
3. Blake Griffin
4. LaMarcus Aldridge
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Serge Ibaka
7. Paul Milsap
8. David Lee
9. Pau Gasol
10. Zach Randolph

tredigs
10-15-2014, 08:30 PM
These rankings are all based on which teams the power forwards play for. Anthony Davis was already more talented than Blake Griffin last year, and he'll still be more talented this year. The only reason Griffin did better offensively last year was because of Chris Paul. Davis, who's point guard Jrue Holiday played less than half the season, owned Griffin on the defensive end. The only clear advantage I give Griffin is that he's a better passer. This will be a way better comparative year.

1. Kevin Love
2. Anthony Davis
3. Blake Griffin
4. LaMarcus Aldridge
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Serge Ibaka
7. Paul Milsap
8. David Lee
9. Pau Gasol
10. Zach Randolph

A pretty ridiculous statement, especially considering the month he had when Cp3 was out with injury. Carried the Clips while putting up gaudy #'s and it propelled him into the MVP conversation. What is your response to that?

SF8
10-15-2014, 09:22 PM
I would argue that at this point in their careers, Griffin does more work making CP3 look good then vice versa.

FlashBolt
10-15-2014, 10:13 PM
No it's not a fact. You don't round up. It's a fact that he had a 49/39/89 season. That is mathematical fact.

Go look it up since you clearly don't have a clue about the rules of the 50/40/90 club. You NEVER round up.

Do you round up a players PER? No. If someone makes 299 three pointers in a season do we just round it up to 300 to make it a nice pretty whole number? No. He shot 89% from the line, not 90% it's not the same thing. 49% and 50% are not the same thing.

Stop being foolish. You dont round up. Thats not how it works. You're wrong here. Go look it up then come back and admit you were wrong or just don't bother replying.

I'm not debating this further. It's pointless. You clearly don't understand what the 50-40-90 club means. It's called the 50-40-90 and not the 49-39-89 for a reason.

So how much better is the "50-40-90" club than a "49-39-89"? That's what he's arguing.. that it's simply a nonsensical benchmark that doesn't truly signify anything when you think of the totality of it. I agree that you shouldn't round up in a topic like this but as Tredigs stated, being 1 three away or two missed free throws from the 50-40-90 club is pretty minimal.

Bruno
10-15-2014, 10:45 PM
i would have voted davis here too.

Bruno
10-15-2014, 10:46 PM
Davis, just because I think this is the year his 2-way rep becomes well deserved. As an undersized center hes going to be a liability due to his youth but as a 4-man alongside a legitimate Center, hes going to be a terror. Very similar to Elvin Hayes in Houston vs what his defense became in Washington, or like KG in Minnesota then Boston.

He might push for Top-3 player in the game but he'll have to settle for this spot for now. Im usually the guy talking up Dirk at this point and after last years mini resurgence I still should be, I hope reports of his quicker release translate to an even better season but Im thinking he stagnates and Im thinking hes no longer the bonafide playoff stud worthy of the benefit of the doubt. So hes after LMA this year for me.

ibaka after dirk?

FlashBolt
10-15-2014, 10:53 PM
ibaka after dirk?

I too have Dirk over Ibaka. I want to see how Ibaka plays as a leader. With KD gone, maybe he can expand his game. He's too one dimensional on the offensive end, IMO. Needs to post up some more.

mrblisterdundee
10-15-2014, 10:54 PM
A pretty ridiculous statement, especially considering the month he had when Cp3 was out with injury. Carried the Clips while putting up gaudy #'s and it propelled him into the MVP conversation. What is your response to that?

Griffin had Darren Collison and Jamal Crawford to step in and handle the rock with Paul out for 18 games. Davis had Tyreke Evans and Brian Roberts with Holiday out for 47.
Griffin put up gaudy scoring numbers over that time span, with a guy who averaged 19 points per game sidelined and two other capable ball handlers feeding him. But nothing else about his play was particularly gaudy. Davis was 6'10", 220 pounds, playing center on a crappy team and still scoring almost as efficiently from the floor without as good of point guards.
Griffin's team won twice as many games as it lost in that time span, but again, it's stacked compared with New Orleans. Put Davis in that same situation on the Clippers and he'd be better on both ends of the court, because he's more innately talented than Griffin. The entire Clippers defense would also be better.
This season, Davis has a decent point guard back, and a real center so that he can play his actual position.

mightybosstone
10-15-2014, 11:23 PM
Dirk's TO% last season was 7.5%, LMA's was 7.2%. In fact LMA has among the lowest Turnover numbers for a player who has as high a usage rate as him in the entire league. So no, Dirk does not turn the ball over less.
It's all about the stats you're looking at and the sample size. Initially I was looking turnovers per game, where Dirk had the edge. Aldridge has the edge in TO% this season and over their careers, but it's a marginal advantage, and Dirk posted a better the number the previous two seasons.


Dirk's AST% was 14.3%. LMA's was 13.0%. It was Dirk's highest AST% in 4 years.
Yeah, I'm not buying this one. Dirk has historically been a far better better passer and posted the higher AST%.


And I think that's the problem. You act as if Dirk and LMA have been putting up these Shooting #'s their entire careers when in reality Dirk's efficiency last season far exceeded his efficiency the previous 2 years and LMA's was drastically worse from his previous 2 seasons.
Does it matter? Dirk is the better shooter no matter what year you're talking about.


Dirk's rim% was 77.8% last season but 62.5% and 66.1% the previous 2 seasons and his career is 64.1%. LMA's were 67.5, 69.4, and 68.7 and his career is 69.4%. So no, his numbers around the rim don't put LMA's to shame, they actually are drastically inferior overall with one what is high likely to be outlier season.
Last year he did. And both guys take very few of their shots around the rim, so it's kind of a moot point. Where both plays take the vast majority of their shots, Dirk completely dominates Aldridge. It's not remotely close.


LMA at this point is better at just about everything but shooting than Dirk. if you want to say passing fine, but it is by a far smaller margin than LMA's defense and rebounding are superior to Dirk's.
Dirk is the better offensive player, period. I don't know how you can argue otherwise. Better shooter. More efficient scorer. Better passer.

tredigs
10-15-2014, 11:56 PM
Griffin had Darren Collison and Jamal Crawford to step in and handle the rock with Paul out for 18 games. Davis had Tyreke Evans and Brian Roberts with Holiday out for 47.
Griffin put up gaudy scoring numbers over that time span, with a guy who averaged 19 points per game sidelined and two other capable ball handlers feeding him. But nothing else about his play was particularly gaudy. Davis was 6'10", 220 pounds, playing center on a crappy team and still scoring almost as efficiently from the floor without as good of point guards.
Griffin's team won twice as many games as it lost in that time span, but again, it's stacked compared with New Orleans. Put Davis in that same situation on the Clippers and he'd be better on both ends of the court, because he's more innately talented than Griffin. The entire Clippers defense would also be better.
This season, Davis has a decent point guard back, and a real center so that he can play his actual position.

You're completely blind to the Clippers running their offense through Griffin. He was averaging 5+ APG in that span (5 assists... I'm pretty sure AD has never had a 5 assist game in his life, let alone average it for any period of time) along with the 10+ boards and 30+ PPG on high efficiency. But you're right, maybe that was all thanks to Darren Collison -- playmaking juggernaut and defense-warper that he is.

mrblisterdundee
10-16-2014, 12:41 AM
You're completely blind to the Clippers running their offense through Griffin. He was averaging 5+ APG in that span (5 assists... I'm pretty sure AD has never had a 5 assist game in his life, let alone average it for any period of time) along with the 10+ boards and 30+ PPG on high efficiency. But you're right, maybe that was all thanks to Darren Collison -- playmaking juggernaut and defense-warper that he is.

I never said anything more than that Collison and Crawford are more capable ball handlers than Evans and Roberts, and I admitted that Griffin's clearly a better passer than Davis, who will get better in that regard. But Paul was only out 20 games and is a big part of Griffin's success offensively.
Including Griffin's superior passing ability, my overall argument that Davis is the better all-around player stands. He's on another level than Griffin defensively, and while four years younger, he's only getting better offensively.

flea
10-16-2014, 01:05 AM
I'm not sure Davis is appreciably better than Griffin defensively yet. I would rate them about the same, and I'm a Pels fan. For the future I don't think there's much question - Griffin's T-Rex arms can't really compete with Davis as a rim protector. But Davis still has plenty of holes in his defensive game.

valade16
10-16-2014, 09:11 AM
It's all about the stats you're looking at and the sample size. Initially I was looking turnovers per game, where Dirk had the edge. Aldridge has the edge in TO% this season and over their careers, but it's a marginal advantage, and Dirk posted a better the number the previous two seasons.

Yeah, I'm not buying this one. Dirk has historically been a far better better passer and posted the higher AST%.

Does it matter? Dirk is the better shooter no matter what year you're talking about.

Last year he did. And both guys take very few of their shots around the rim, so it's kind of a moot point. Where both plays take the vast majority of their shots, Dirk completely dominates Aldridge. It's not remotely close.

Dirk is the better offensive player, period. I don't know how you can argue otherwise. Better shooter. More efficient scorer. Better passer.

You're essentially rewording Dirk's one skill in several ways to make it appear he's better at a multitude of things than LMA.

He is a better scorer because of his shooting. There are no other facets of scoring that Dirk is better than LMA at. So he is a better shooter than LMA. And a marginally better passer. That's it.

LMA is better at everything else. Defense (in every way. Rim Protection, man to man, pick and roll, help defense, blocks, etc.). Rebounding. Low Post play.

If you think Dirk's shooting is so dominant that it overshadows everything else LMA brings to the table cool, that is a legitimate discussion because Dirk's shooting is that good. But at this point in terms of overall skillsets, LMA is a far more well rounded player than Dirk. That is undeniable.

FlashBolt
10-16-2014, 12:30 PM
You're essentially rewording Dirk's one skill in several ways to make it appear he's better at a multitude of things than LMA.

He is a better scorer because of his shooting. There are no other facets of scoring that Dirk is better than LMA at. So he is a better shooter than LMA. And a marginally better passer. That's it.

LMA is better at everything else. Defense (in every way. Rim Protection, man to man, pick and roll, help defense, blocks, etc.). Rebounding. Low Post play.

If you think Dirk's shooting is so dominant that it overshadows everything else LMA brings to the table cool, that is a legitimate discussion because Dirk's shooting is that good. But at this point in terms of overall skillsets, LMA is a far more well rounded player than Dirk. That is undeniable.

Dirk has a history of winning and the reason is because he's so good at drawing players to him for other guys. That alone has a huge impact. The crazy part is Dirk doesn't have to rely on any sort of athleticism. So what you're seeing from him is not much different than what you're seeing at his prime. No way LMA over Dirk for me.

THE MTL
10-16-2014, 09:48 PM
At this present day Dirk is NOT better than Lamarcus. I don't know what else there is to say. LMA is just better at this point in their respective careers.

flea
10-16-2014, 09:56 PM
I take Dirk for next season. He's a better and smarter defender, way more efficient, and isn't a low IQ chucker like many scorers.

FlashBolt
10-17-2014, 12:45 AM
The impact of Dirk on the court far outweighs LaMarcus. Think about this - who would you rather surround your team with? Dirk is a more experienced and savvy player than LA.

Oefarmy2005
10-17-2014, 09:27 AM
It should be easily AD, and that's who I'd vote for if the poll was still open. I have zero doubt he will be vote #1 next year. AD is basically who Dwight wishes he could be, I think AD may be the best (all around)PF we've seen since Duncan/Garnett era.

YAALREADYKNO
10-17-2014, 10:30 AM
ibaka after dirk?

No, I'd go with Zach Randolph over ibaka

FlashBolt
10-17-2014, 11:54 AM
It should be easily AD, and that's who I'd vote for if the poll was still open. I have zero doubt he will be vote #1 next year. AD is basically who Dwight wishes he could be, I think AD may be the best (all around)PF we've seen since Duncan/Garnett era.

Between Blake and AD, imo.

valade16
10-17-2014, 01:06 PM
I take Dirk for next season. He's a better and smarter defender, way more efficient, and isn't a low IQ chucker like many scorers.

Than LMA? Not even remotely true.

Oefarmy2005
10-17-2014, 02:55 PM
Between Blake and AD, imo.

Love is better than Blake, no matter how you slice it. Now, Blake has the physical tools to become better than Love through his prime, but Love will have a longer prime. I think AD has the potential to be significantly better and more balanced than both.

MonroeFAN
10-17-2014, 03:31 PM
Davis and LMA should be 1 and 2.

flea
10-17-2014, 04:22 PM
Than LMA? Not even remotely true.
I think this discussion was had, but at best LMA is the 4th best defender on his own team and they're still not a top 10 defense. He's consistently on mediocre to bad defensive teams, depending on how much he's asked to do.