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mightybosstone
10-07-2014, 08:27 AM
Voting for #33 has concluded and PSD's Official #33 NBA Player of all time is....

Kevin McHale!!!!

The List:
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Magic Johnson
5. Shaquille O'neal
6. Tim Duncan
7. Hakeem Olajuwan
8. LeBron James
9. Larry Bird
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Bill Russell
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Moses Malone
14. Jerry West
15. Julius Erving
16. David Robinson
17. Charles Barkley
18. Kevin Garnett
19. Karl Malone
20. Dirk Nowitzki
21. Bob Pettit
22. Dwyane Wade
23. John Havlicek
24. Patrick Ewing
25. Scottie Pippen
26. Elgin Baylor
27. John Stockton
28. Walt Frazier
29. Rick Barry
30. Clyde Drexler
31. Isiah Thomas
32. Willis Reed
33. Kevin Durant
34. Kevin McHale

mightybosstone
10-07-2014, 08:32 AM
Before everyone wonders where Ray Allen came from, I made that addition myself. We're getting to the point where we need to start considering guys who might be right at around that top 50 mark and I think Allen is one of those guys who makes a very strong case for inclusion in the top 50 even if he might not make it in.

But we need to get some more votes in here, guys. The last one was an all-time low. I think we had fewer than 15 votes. Keep participating and debating!

And as always, MODS PLEASE STICKY!!!!!!!!

NYKalltheway
10-07-2014, 11:26 AM
Ray Allen but no Reggie Miller?

mightybosstone
10-07-2014, 11:31 AM
Ray Allen but no Reggie Miller?

Nobody else nominated Reggie Miller. If you want Miller on the list, then feel free to nominate him. But I chose to nominate Allen, because I think Allen at his peak was the better player and has had a more accomplished career.

NYKalltheway
10-07-2014, 11:39 AM
you didn't nominate Allen though, you just added him in :D

mightybosstone
10-07-2014, 11:45 AM
you didn't nominate Allen though, you just added him in :D

I don't need to. I'm the one taking the time to make the polls. Also, all it takes to nominate somebody is to say "I nominate Player X" in one of these threads. I pretty much did that with my first post in this thread. But anyone can nominate a player if they want to.

Or if you'd like, you can take over these polls for me. Except, I doubt you would. After all, you don't feel the need to vote in them because you claim the list is such a "travesty." Yet you continue to criticize something or somebody in every single thread. I'm curious why you continue to waste your time on something you think so little of? ;)

mightybosstone
10-07-2014, 11:48 AM
But to stay on topic here, I went with Walton. I believe he's the only guy left on the list who won an MVP and a Finals MVP. And he brought the city of Portland its only professional sports title. Couple that with playing a pretty significant role on those Celtics teams after injuries ended his prime, and I think Walton has a damn strong case as one of the 10 greatest centers in NBA history.

KnicksorBust
10-07-2014, 12:25 PM
I'd take Walton over that loser Elgin Baylor who went 8 players ago.

valade16
10-07-2014, 02:10 PM
I guess I'm more of a peak ability / legacy guy than I am a longevity guy because I think it's gotta be either Bill Walton or George Mikan here. I know all the guys under consideration were better basketball players than Mikan but what he did for the league shouldn't be dismissed.

That being said, I'm going Walton. Great defensive and offensive player who won an MVP and led his team to a title. About the only thing he didn't accomplish in his career is the opportunity to do that multiple times. But I would like to know anyone's thoughts on why Walton's advanced numbers are severely lacking compared to the other great big men on this list.

Chronz
10-07-2014, 02:42 PM
I guess I'm more of a peak ability / legacy guy than I am a longevity guy because I think it's gotta be either Bill Walton or George Mikan here. I know all the guys under consideration were better basketball players than Mikan but what he did for the league shouldn't be dismissed.
He should get a sentimental placing in the Top100 and thats about as far as I'd be willing to go. The guy was a beast, but he wasn't really going up against players that could propel him higher, just took advantage of an infant league desperately trying to figure out its geometry and rules. Still a great player, but by awarding him now, we are punishing guys for playing in more advanced eras. Thats not basketball related to me, I try to block out popularity so what guys did for the game isn't remotely important to me. Just my subjective opinion of players I feel give my team the best chance to win.

Chronz
10-07-2014, 02:43 PM
I'd take Walton over that loser Elgin Baylor who went 8 players ago.

Elgin was only a loser during the 2nd half of his career, aka the injury ridden grouch.

Before that he was as good as that guy who went in the high teens (Doc).

Chronz
10-07-2014, 02:47 PM
But to stay on topic here, I went with Walton. I believe he's the only guy left on the list who won an MVP and a Finals MVP. And he brought the city of Portland its only professional sports title. Couple that with playing a pretty significant role on those Celtics teams after injuries ended his prime, and I think Walton has a damn strong case as one of the 10 greatest centers in NBA history.
Best individual season remaining BY FAR. Will not argue against it, really puts a precedent on peak value from here on out tho. Tmac better not get shafted for carrying garb.

abe_froman
10-07-2014, 02:51 PM
i think pierce should start getting some love

Chronz
10-07-2014, 04:35 PM
i'm leaning towards walton here,but i want to say that i think pierce should start getting some love

Pierce and Walton are on such different ends of the spectrum for me.

Pierce has the longevity and the halo of a champion, but he wasn't remotely as dominant as Walton. And a vote for Walton is a vote against longevity.

Pierce was rescued by the KG/Ray trade. Without that where was his career going? I love me some Pierce, wish he was on the Celtics, but I dont see how a vote for Walton can be followed by a vote for Pierce. Even at his best he was a notch below guys like Tmac, Kobe. His Finals performance was impressive but his overall championship run doesn't run wasn't, the Celtics underachieved in part because he did not live up to his billing as a clutch time scorer. Ill take the better player over the better winner in most comparisons.

abe_froman
10-07-2014, 04:48 PM
Pierce and Walton are on such different ends of the spectrum for me.

Pierce has the longevity and the halo of a champion, but he wasn't remotely as dominant as Walton. And a vote for Walton is a vote against longevity.

Pierce was rescued by the KG/Ray trade. Without that where was his career going? I love me some Pierce, wish he was on the Celtics, but I dont see how a vote for Walton can be followed by a vote for Pierce. Even at his best he was a notch below guys like Tmac, Kobe. His Finals performance was impressive but his overall championship run doesn't run wasn't, the Celtics underachieved in part because he did not live up to his billing as a clutch time scorer. Ill take the better player over the better winner in most comparisons.

you hit it on the head.he didnt have the peak,but he has the longevity(which i guess i value more than others when compiling these type of lists).there just isnt enough winning for me to give to tmac and just not enough out of walton,so by default i'm choosing from guys like pp,allen,payton,nash,kidd,ect. who probably has the best mix of things i'm looking for

and of that group i probably choose pierce with reservations,sure. but nash has the mvp's ,but no ring;payton and kidd had theirs won for them to a greater degree than pp...though i'd be good with any of that group

todu82
10-07-2014, 06:15 PM
Bill Walton.

mightybosstone
10-07-2014, 06:20 PM
Best individual season remaining BY FAR. Will not argue against it, really puts a precedent on peak value from here on out tho. Tmac better not get shafted for carrying garb.


i think pierce should start getting some love

The wings are going to be really tough to rank. It looks like Walton is going next and after that, I think I'm going to put my votes toward either Paul or Nash. Then Payton and Kidd won't be far behind for me. But looking at those wings, I have such a hard time separating guys like Wilkins, Gervin, Iverson, McGrady, Pierce and Allen. I guess I'd give the slightest of edges to Wilkins and Gervin above the other guys, but McGrady's peak probably crushes them all.

abe_froman
10-07-2014, 06:31 PM
The wings are going to be really tough to rank.
how it is for me with the pgs .nash-overwhelming offense ,mvps;cousy-similar to nash in being such an all offensive,no d, force;kidd-the defense;paul-the stats king;payton-kind of a mix.i'd probably go edge to gp,but after that they are so close that i cant really give a def edge to anyone,all about the same level for me

mightybosstone
10-07-2014, 06:52 PM
how it is for me with the pgs .nash-overwhelming offense ,mvps;cousy-similar to nash in being such an all offensive,no d, force;kidd-the defense;paul-the stats king;payton-kind of a mix.i'd probably go edge to gp,but after that they are so close that i cant really give a def edge to anyone,all about the same level for me

For me, Paul is the clear No. 1 of the group and Cousy is the clear, distant No. 5. It's Nash, Kidd and Payton that are tougher for me to rank. Personally, I'd go Nash No. 2, Payton No. 3 and Kidd No. 4, but it's really freaking close. As for Cousy, I don't know that I'll even vote for him in the top 50.

abe_froman
10-07-2014, 07:06 PM
For me, Paul is the clear No. 1 of the group and Cousy is the clear, distant No. 5. It's Nash, Kidd and Payton that are tougher for me to rank. Personally, I'd go Nash No. 2, Payton No. 3 and Kidd No. 4, but it's really freaking close. As for Cousy, I don't know that I'll even vote for him in the top 50.

unadjusted he looks pretty bad,sure.but when accounting for context of era and role ,he stacks up fairly.

mightybosstone
10-08-2014, 11:23 AM
I think I'm going to start cutting these polls to 48 hours instead of 72. We're getting good activity in that first day or day and a half, and then everything completely dies and we get no votes on day three. Plus, the faster the new poll gets posted, the more likely we are to get posters to have consistent conversation and debate between polls. Is everyone cool with that?

KnicksorBust
10-08-2014, 12:46 PM
For me, Paul is the clear No. 1 of the group and Cousy is the clear, distant No. 5. It's Nash, Kidd and Payton that are tougher for me to rank. Personally, I'd go Nash No. 2, Payton No. 3 and Kidd No. 4, but it's really freaking close. As for Cousy, I don't know that I'll even vote for him in the top 50.

How can you Cousy be out of the top 50? That can only be true if you completely ignore the context of the era that he played in.

mightybosstone
10-08-2014, 12:55 PM
How can you Cousy be out of the top 50? That can only be true if you completely ignore the context of the era that he played in.

I'm not ignoring the context. Players were generally less efficient back then. But how many really good players from that era shot less than 38% from the floor for their entire careers? I'm guessing only one: Cousy. To me, that's just really, really hard to ignore. And I may still vote for Cousy in the top 50. I don't know yet, and it would sort of depend on who was left on the list. But I definitely won't vote for him over the other four point guards I mentioned, and if I had to pick one guy from the 50s and 60s to get in, I'd probably give Mikan the edge over Cousy.

But if it comes down to me voting in guys like Paul Pierce or Tracy McGrady who I've seen play and whose production and accolades I know and trust or someone like Cousy, I'm taking those guys over him. That's just my personal preference.

KnicksorBust
10-08-2014, 03:40 PM
I'm not ignoring the context. Players were generally less efficient back then. But how many really good players from that era shot less than 38% from the floor for their entire careers? I'm guessing only one: Cousy. To me, that's just really, really hard to ignore. And I may still vote for Cousy in the top 50. I don't know yet, and it would sort of depend on who was left on the list. But I definitely won't vote for him over the other four point guards I mentioned, and if I had to pick one guy from the 50s and 60s to get in, I'd probably give Mikan the edge over Cousy.

But if it comes down to me voting in guys like Paul Pierce or Tracy McGrady who I've seen play and whose production and accolades I know and trust or someone like Cousy, I'm taking those guys over him. That's just my personal preference.

Of course you are ignoring context. If you judge him in relation to his peers than no one on this list comes remotely close to dominating like he did:

10 All-NBA First Team (19521961)
2 All-NBA Second Team (1962, 1963)
8 NBA assists leader (1953-1960)

Show me a resume as good as that and then we can talk about the almighty FIELD GOAL PERCENTAGE!

mightybosstone
10-08-2014, 04:06 PM
Of course you are ignoring context. If you judge him in relation to his peers than no one on this list comes remotely close to dominating like he did:

10 All-NBA First Team (19521961)
2 All-NBA Second Team (1962, 1963)
8 NBA assists leader (1953-1960)

Show me a resume as good as that and then we can talk about the almighty FIELD GOAL PERCENTAGE!

Okay.

6x All-BAA/NBA 1st team selection in only 7 years in the league
5x NBA Champion in only 7 years
3x Scoring champion
2x Scoring champ runner up
2x Rebounding champion
2x Rebound champ runner up
3x WS leader
3x PER leader
5x DWS leader

That's George Mikan. Another guy I may not vote into the top 50. If your sole variable that you look at to determine an athlete's worth is how well a player performed among his peers, then Mikan not only crushes Cousy. He should be in the top 10-20 conversation.

But that's the reason why you have to consider the era of the sport, the competition that athlete played against and how the player's numbers stack up historically. Cousy was easily the best guard of his generation. I'm not doubting that. But then West and Robertson and far more talented players came along in the 60s and his career was quickly overshadowed by superior players.

I just do not take players who peaked in the 50s all that seriously in these types of discussions. Hell, a third of his career was played without a shot clock. It was a different league back then with inferior talent and far lower standards for the sport and its athletes. If you want to vote for Cousy soon, go for it, man. That's your prerogative. I won't be.

KnicksorBust
10-08-2014, 04:10 PM
null

Less rings... Half as many ALL-NBA teams...smaller prime... didnt dominate in scoring like Cousy did in assists... I get the comparison though.

mightybosstone
10-08-2014, 04:25 PM
Less rings... Half as many ALL-NBA teams...smaller prime... didnt dominate in scoring like Cousy did in assists... I get the comparison though.

If there was an MVP award in the early 50s, Mikan would have won it at least three times. As good as Cousy was within his era, Mikan was better at his peak. Regardless, it's all a moot point for me, as I don't think it's likely that I'll be voting for either guy in the top 50.

SLY WILLIAMS
10-08-2014, 05:26 PM
Bill Walton was da man but I can not vote for him. As great as he was in college and as a NBA player early in his career he only played around 3 real NBA seasons. I will take Dominique here and ask will Bernard be nominated soon?

mightybosstone
10-08-2014, 05:30 PM
Bill Walton was da man but I can not vote for him. As great as he was in college and as a NBA player early in his career he only played around 3 real NBA seasons. I will take Dominique here and ask will Bernard be nominated soon?

I don't see why not. Would you like to officially nominate Bernard King? Just say so, and I'll add him on the next poll tomorrow.