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Tony_Starks
10-02-2014, 03:31 PM
It's been a common theme this summer that these guys are pretty much washed up and their teams won't be that great. But they each have something to prove this year. Just wanted to get everyone's take on these 3 now before the season starts.

How good do you think each will be, with what effect on their team?

goingfor28
10-02-2014, 03:34 PM
Kobe will be fine. Rose and Wade I don't know.

abe_froman
10-02-2014, 03:35 PM
It's been a common theme this summer that these guys are pretty much washed up and their teams won't be that great. But they each have something to prove this year. Just wanted to get everyone's take on these 3 now before the season starts.

How good do you think each will be, with what effect on their team?

:confused: what are you talking about with the bolded,the bulls and heat are popular picks to be high-mid playoff teams

Ebbs
10-02-2014, 03:37 PM
I'd want:

Kobe
Wade
Rose

In that order to win next season.

tredigs
10-02-2014, 03:41 PM
I think Kobe will put up ~17/5/4 on 42% FG, miss ~20 games and throw a locker room forearm shiver at Nick Young somewhere around game 25. Lakers record: 22-60

I think Rose will put up 19/3/6.5 on 43% FG and miss 1/3rd of the season. Bulls record: 51-31

I think Wade will put up 24/5/6 on 50% FG and miss 20 games. Miami record: 48/34

Goose17
10-02-2014, 03:51 PM
I don't think you can call Rose washed up, last time he was healthy he was the reigning MVP and supposedly ready to lead his team into the ECF.

If Rose is healthy again he will be the best of the three by far. Kobe will be okay. Wade will be weak with the occasional flash of brilliance.

That's my prediction... I hope Wade proves me wrong.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
10-02-2014, 03:57 PM
I think Kobe will put up ~17/5/4 on 42% FG, miss ~20 games and throw a locker room forearm shiver at Nick Young somewhere around game 25. Lakers record: 22-60

I think Rose will put up 19/3/6.5 on 43% FG and miss 1/3rd of the season. Bulls record: 51-31

I think Wade will put up 24/5/6 on 50% FG and miss 20 games. Miami record: 48/34

I smell hate...sniff sniff

Chronz
10-02-2014, 04:11 PM
Kobe : 19-5-4 (110 O-RTG) - Lakers 32Wins
Wade : 21.5-5-5 (108 ORTG) - Heat 41Wins
D-Rose : 18.5 -3-6 (106 ORTG) Bulls win 51 games


Im bullish on all these guys but I have the most hope in Kobe tho his team should be crap.

2-ONE-5
10-02-2014, 04:17 PM
I think Kobe will put up ~17/5/4 on 42% FG, miss ~20 games and throw a locker room forearm shiver at Nick Young somewhere around game 25. Lakers record: 22-60

I think Rose will put up 19/3/6.5 on 43% FG and miss 1/3rd of the season. Bulls record: 51-31

I think Wade will put up 24/5/6 on 50% FG and miss 20 games. Miami record: 48/34

0% chance

ewing
10-02-2014, 04:19 PM
i don't think those guys are washed up. Kobe could be if he get hurt again. On the other hand, Wade average 19, 5, and 5 on 54% from the field last year, just b/c he had a couple bad games and The King quit on him doesn't mean the dude is washed up. As for Rose, its going to take him time to get his timing back and when it is we will see how strong his body is. I think it is crazy to expect and immediate return to MVP form for him but otherwise i think he is just an unknown.

Chronz
10-02-2014, 04:28 PM
i don't think those guys are washed up. Kobe could be if he get hurt again. On the other hand, Wade average 19, 5, and 5 on 54% from the field last year, just b/c he had a couple bad games and The King quit on him doesn't mean the dude is washed up. As for Rose, its going to take him time to get his timing back and when it is we will see how strong his body is. I think it is crazy to expect and immediate return to MVP form for him but otherwise i think he is just an unknown.
But Wade accomplished that by taking games off (quitter) having the weakest perimeter defender checking him and now hes expected to play every game. Hes allegedly in better shape than hes been in ages (why not last year?) but given his injury history, I dont expect him to remain healthy for a full season.

ewing
10-02-2014, 04:34 PM
But Wade accomplished that by taking games off (quitter) having the weakest perimeter defender checking him and now hes expected to play every game. Hes allegedly in better shape than hes been in ages (why not last year?) but given his injury history, I dont expect him to remain healthy for a full season.


wade never quit on anyone and i don't expect him to play every game. I both expect him to take games off and miss some do to injury, he will also be a very good basketball player.

Goose17
10-02-2014, 04:38 PM
But Wade accomplished that by taking games off (quitter) .

lol... bitter much?

Like you would ever say the same about the Spurs trio or Nowitzki.

tredigs
10-02-2014, 04:44 PM
I smell hate...sniff sniff

On which part? Just a hunch that it's only concerning the Kobe/Lakers bit... so I'll elaborate a little. Kobe looked like absolute **** the last time we saw him on a basketball court; averaging 13/4/6 on 42.5% (18% from three) and nearly 6 TO's a game in the limited action we got to see of him. Now, a year older into his twilight and with another rehabilitated knee under his belt, I'm expecting something in between that performance and his past. We will be seeing the slowest/oldest Bryant to date, and one with the least bounce on his jumper. Thinking on it more I think he can/will average a few more PPG than 17 (up to 22) on a similar %, but I don't think it's going to be a pretty year.

As for the Lakers, well, they are going to be demolished. I don't see Kobe as a top 25 player in the league in 2015 or a significant game changer at this point, so even if he stays on the court, what they lost in Pau will be felt to a larger degree. They won what, 25 games last year? With their bottom of the barrel D somehow getting worse in the off-season, I don't see them improving on that. The teams best player is Jordan Hill for God sake.

WaDe03
10-02-2014, 04:48 PM
i think kobe will put up ~17/5/4 on 42% fg, miss ~20 games and throw a locker room forearm shiver at nick young somewhere around game 25. Lakers record: 22-60

i think rose will put up 19/3/6.5 on 43% fg and miss 1/3rd of the season. Bulls record: 51-31

i think wade will put up 24/5/6 on 50% fg and miss 20 games. Miami record: 48/34

0% chance

Wade could put up those numbers.

Redrum187
10-02-2014, 04:49 PM
Kobe Bryant: 25-5-6 44% fg
Dwyane Wade: 20-5-6 48% fg
Derrick Rose: 20-3-7 42% fg

WaDe03
10-02-2014, 04:50 PM
But Wade accomplished that by taking games off (quitter) having the weakest perimeter defender checking him and now hes expected to play every game. Hes allegedly in better shape than hes been in ages (why not last year?) but given his injury history, I dont expect him to remain healthy for a full season.

It wasn't Wades choice to sit out all those games he's said that plenty of times.

WaDe03
10-02-2014, 04:52 PM
Wade
Kobe
Rose
In that order

Heat and Bulls are competing, Lakers fight for the 8th seed but don't get it and end up in the lottery.

tredigs
10-02-2014, 04:53 PM
I think Kobe will put up ~17/5/4 on 42% FG, miss ~20 games and throw a locker room forearm shiver at Nick Young somewhere around game 25. Lakers record: 22-60

I think Rose will put up 19/3/6.5 on 43% FG and miss 1/3rd of the season. Bulls record: 51-31

I think Wade will put up 24/5/6 on 50% FG and miss 20 games. Miami record: 48-34


0% chance

0% Wade puts up those #'s and Miami wins 48? Deng was a nice pickup and they're still better than the majority of the teams in the East along with 6 or 7 teams in the West. Seeing as they play the East more often, that comes out to around 48 wins by my count. Why do you disagree?

Wade is reportedly in great shape and will be asked to play a couple more mpg than he did last year. He will also have a much higher Usage% than he did last year (where he put up ~19/5/5 on 55%). I'd say 24/5/6 on 50% is pretty realistic for this season. Why do you disagree?

Redrum187
10-02-2014, 04:56 PM
0% Wade puts up those #'s and Miami wins 48? Deng was a nice pickup and they're still better than the majority of the teams in the East along with 6 or 7 teams in the West. Seeing as they play the East more often, that comes out to around 48 wins by my count. Why do you disagree?

Wade is reportedly in great shape and will be asked to play a couple more mpg than he did last year. He will also have a much higher Usage% than he did last year (where he put up ~19/5/5 on 55%). I'd say 24/5/6 on 50% is pretty realistic for this season. Why do you disagree?

1.) He will be the opposing team's number 1 pick to stop/slow down.
2.) More usage generally equates to less efficiency.
3.) More time will equate to less efficiency.
4.) Bad history of being injured.

20-5-6 on 48% (my prediction) is quite liberal if anything. I doubt he does any better.

D-Leethal
10-02-2014, 05:03 PM
Wade will have a big time bounce back year now that the ball will be back in his hands and he won't be a weakside dump off guy. He will be able to play the screen game and make plays from the top of the key and that will bode well for him like it always has.

FlashBolt
10-02-2014, 05:08 PM
I don't know about ya'll but Rose has not looked very well. His team/head coach may tell you otherwise but it's pretty evident that something is bothering him.

Tony_Starks
10-02-2014, 05:20 PM
Wade will have a big time bounce back year now that the ball will be back in his hands and he won't be a weakside dump off guy. He will be able to play the screen game and make plays from the top of the key and that will bode well for him like it always has.

That's how I see it. His game was very respectable to me to basically be used as a off ball slasher. As primary ball handler with Bosh back at mid post I think Miami is going to surprise a lot of people.

Chronz
10-02-2014, 05:30 PM
lol... bitter much?

Like you would ever say the same about the Spurs trio or Nowitzki.
If the external factors were also the same, yes.


wade never quit on anyone and i don't expect him to play every game. I both expect him to take games off and miss some do to injury, he will also be a very good basketball player.
He certainly didn't show up.


It wasn't Wades choice to sit out all those games he's said that plenty of times.
It was his decision to undergo that training regimen and nothing changes the fact that those were his advantages. Wade will play better but I think people should temper their expectations.

lamzoka
10-02-2014, 05:38 PM
Wade will be in and out the lineup all season. It's Bosh's team.

Kobe might lead the league in scoring in a very inefficient way. Leading his team to the lottery with a 33-49 record.

Rose - I hate to say this, but i don't think he'll survive 82 games.

tredigs
10-02-2014, 05:47 PM
.


1.) He will be the opposing team's number 1 pick to stop/slow down.
So, exactly what he has been used to his entire bball career before Bron came and he became 1b.

2.) More usage generally equates to less efficiency.
Correct - hence my predicted massive drop in is FG% to 50% on account of that.

3.) More time will equate to less efficiency.
At a ~2-3 mpg increase that I'd predict he'll see, that seems unfounded/unlikely that it has a measurable impact on his efficiency. But again, see point 2.

4.) Bad history of being injured.
I have him missing a quarter of the season.


20-5-6 on 48% (my prediction) is quite liberal if anything. I doubt he does any better.
He's only 33 and looks to be in great shape. For comparison, Kobe put up 27/6/6 in 77 games at 34. The two are not made equal, but we know what Wade can do and I have a feeling he returns closer to his usual #1 option numbers and plays 3/4ths of the season.

What your numbers indicate is that you think he plays the same amount of minutes, dishes out one more assist and has his FG% drop from 55.5% to 48% on the same volume. I highly doubt it.

FlashBolt
10-02-2014, 06:26 PM
So, exactly what he has been used to his entire bball career before Bron came and he became 1b.

Correct - hence my predicted massive drop in is FG% to 50% on account of that.

At a ~2-3 mpg increase that I'd predict he'll see, that seems unfounded/unlikely that it has a measurable impact on his efficiency. But again, see point 2.
.
I have him missing a quarter of the season.


He's only 33 and looks to be in great shape. For comparison, Kobe put up 27/6/6 in 77 games at 34. The two are not made equal, but we know what Wade can do and I have a feeling he returns closer to his usual #1 option numbers and plays 3/4ths of the season.

What your numbers indicate is that you think he plays the same amount of minutes, dishes out one more assist and has his FG% drop from 55.5% to 48% on the same volume. I highly doubt it.


Wade's knees are going to be exposed further when he's guarded by an elite defender.

Vinny642
10-02-2014, 06:30 PM
Wade is done.

Kobe will score but the team wont win

Rose has the best chance at personally succeeding and team success

ewing
10-02-2014, 06:33 PM
If the external factors were also the same, yes.


He certainly didn't show up.


It was his decision to undergo that training regimen and nothing changes the fact that those were his advantages. Wade will play better but I think people should temper their expectations.


fair enough. my only point was that i think people have been saying wade is washed way too much and i think that is fueled by some fans being reluctant to ever criticize James.

mightybosstone
10-02-2014, 07:55 PM
Kobe: 23/5/5 with a 54% TS%, 21 PER and .170 WS/48 in 72 games; Lakers win 35 games
Wade: 21/6/4 with a 56% TS%, 23 PER and .180 WS/48 in 58 games; Miami wins 48 games, knocked out in Round 1
Rose: 18/6/3 with a 51% TS%, 16 PER and a .120 WS/48 in 48 games, Chicago wins 52 games, eliminated in ECF

FlashBolt
10-02-2014, 08:10 PM
Where are you guys getting these numbers from... it doesn't make sense at all. No one can predict that.

jakub
10-02-2014, 08:11 PM
Wade
Rose
Kobe

Wade is by far the safest choice to be the best imo.

beasted86
10-02-2014, 08:15 PM
One of these guys clearly doesn't belong lumped with the other two.

Wade has played a minimum of 72 games every year for the past 3 seasons, and 74 games last year. Kobe played 6 games over last season. Rose played 10 games over the last 2 seasons.

Kobe has had 2 season ending injuries with a recovery time of at least 6 months. Rose had 2 season ending injuries with a recovery time of at least 6 months. Wade has had 0 season ending injuries, and the longest span of consecutive games missed was 9 games.

I mean, if we are lumping Wade with the other two, might as well throw Westbrook into this discussion also. :shrug:

mightybosstone
10-02-2014, 08:18 PM
Where are you guys getting these numbers from... it doesn't make sense at all. No one can predict that.

I give Kobe the benefit of the doubt, because despite being the one who missed the most games last season, he's been the least injury prone over the past five years. I basically just took the numbers from his last really good season, figured he'd be about 60-80% of that guy and then considered that he would be playing on a horrible team with no legitimate second option. Even if he only plays 32-33 minutes per game, his USG% is going to be through the roof. I'd be shocked if he didn't put up at least 22 points and 5 assists per game next year.

Wade and Rose are a little tougher to estimate. I gave Wade a slight bump in his stats because of increased USG%, but dropped his efficiency. I also don't think it's likely that he plays 70 or more games this season, and I don't think Miami will want him to. Rose is even hard to figure out, but I basically took sort of a middle ground between his first really good season and the atrocious numbers he put up last year. I also think he's the one who is likely to miss the most games.

Raidaz4Life
10-02-2014, 08:21 PM
One of these guys clearly doesn't belong lumped with the other two.

Wade has played a minimum of 72 games every year for the past 3 seasons, and 74 games last year. Kobe played 6 games over last season. Rose played 10 games over the last 2 seasons.

Kobe has had 2 season ending injuries with a recovery time of at least 6 months. Rose had 2 season ending injuries with a recovery time of at least 6 months. Wade has had 0 season ending injuries, and the longest span of consecutive games missed was 9 games.

I mean, if we are lumping Wade with the other two, might as well throw Westbrook into this discussion also. :shrug:

The injuries have caused Wade to fall off is where the comparison lies.

FlashBolt
10-02-2014, 08:23 PM
I give Kobe the benefit of the doubt, because despite being the one who missed the most games last season, he's been the least injury prone over the past five years. I basically just took the numbers from his last really good season, figured he'd be about 60-80% of that guy and then considered that he would be playing on a horrible team with no legitimate second option. Even if he only plays 32-33 minutes per game, his USG% is going to be through the roof. I'd be shocked if he didn't put up at least 22 points and 5 assists per game next year.

Wade and Rose are a little tougher to estimate. I gave Wade a slight bump in his stats because of increased USG%, but dropped his efficiency. I also don't think it's likely that he plays 70 or more games this season, and I don't think Miami will want him to. Rose is even hard to figure out, but I basically took sort of a middle ground between his first really good season and the atrocious numbers he put up last year. I also think he's the one who is likely to miss the most games.

Still.. It's pretty mindboggling how someone can attempt to even come up with their numbers. If it was KD or LeBron, it'd make sense because they are so consistent. But with Wade, Kobe, and Rose? We haven't seen these guys in years. And yes, years. Wade has been inactive since the 2011. Dude hasn't been "Wade" at all.

mightybosstone
10-02-2014, 08:24 PM
One of these guys clearly doesn't belong lumped with the other two.

Wade has played a minimum of 72 games every year for the past 3 seasons, and 74 games last year.
You're lumping in postseason games to make it seem better than it really is, but the bottom line is that he missed about 60 games over the last three years and his production has dropped off significantly, and that was with him only playing 32-34 minutes per night and taking on less of the offensive burden with Lebron on the roster.

The odds are likely that Wade will play fewer than 70 regular season games this year. That's not an insult to him as a player or to Heat fans. That's just the most likely scenario.


Kobe played 6 games over last season. Rose played 10 games over the last 2 seasons.
Rose, I get. He's easily the worst offender of the group. But Kobe had hardly been injury prone prior to the Achilles injury. Why is it ridiculous to think he could come back and be a very good player given how much of an Iron Man he has been over the course of his career?

mightybosstone
10-02-2014, 08:25 PM
Still.. It's pretty mindboggling how someone can attempt to even come up with their numbers. If it was KD or LeBron, it'd make sense because they are so consistent. But with Wade, Kobe, and Rose? We haven't seen these guys in years. And yes, years. Wade has been inactive since the 2011. Dude hasn't been "Wade" at all.

But that's kind of the point, dude. Having a thread asking people to predict the stats of super consistent players would be insanely boring. The point with this thread is trying to predict the unpredictable to the best of your ability.

FlashBolt
10-02-2014, 08:29 PM
But that's kind of the point, dude. Having a thread asking people to predict the stats of super consistent players would be insanely boring. The point with this thread is trying to predict the unpredictable to the best of your ability.

Well yeah, but there really is no point in that. It's like saying, who would win in a battle between Superman and Batman? You'll be debating for an eternity. It's just that these three have been inactive for so long. I personally think Rose is going to be a bust. He's probably finished considering he had arguably the worst performance for a USA player. I can't doubt Kobe so I gotta put him ahead of Wade. Wade's knees are just finished.

mightybosstone
10-02-2014, 08:37 PM
Well yeah, but there really is no point in that. It's like saying, who would win in a battle between Superman and Batman? You'll be debating for an eternity. It's just that these three have been inactive for so long. I personally think Rose is going to be a bust. He's probably finished considering he had arguably the worst performance for a USA player. I can't doubt Kobe so I gotta put him ahead of Wade. Wade's knees are just finished.

Dude... It's an Internet forum. If we can't have threads debating stats for unpredictable professional athletes or arguing who would win in a fight between superheroes (It's Batman, btw. Read "Dark Knight Returns" by Frank Miller), then what the hell are doing on here in the first place?

Personally, I agree with pretty much everything you just said. I think Rose is likely going to have an average to below average season for a starting NBA point guard and I think Kobe will probably have a slightly better season on a worse basketball team. But it's fun to try and predict things like this. Hell, you just made predictions of your own, so I guess there was some point in it after all...

Dade County
10-02-2014, 10:23 PM
Rose:
I think he is going to dominate like 70% of the games he plays in. He's jumper might not be what it needs to be every game, but he will just explode into the lane and finish strong (also he will get lots of foul calls).

Normal games... 22pts, 4reb, 6ast

Big time games (when he is on)... 33pts, 4rebs, 10ast

Kobe:
I don't think their is anything wrong with him, so I see him coming to form near the christmas day games.

He will play limited minutes at first, but then it will be like old times.

At first, with limited minutes... 11pts, 5rebs, 3ast

Normal aging Kobe... 19pts, 6rebs, 5ast

Wade:
Like Kobe, I don't think their is anything wrong with him; the difference is, that Wade wont start off slow.

Wade wants to play every game, but I think Spo might sit him out, once every 10games (if that falls on a back to back or one of those 4 games in 6 nights bull crap).

Normal games... 24pts, 5reb, 5ast

I don't think Wade will go into hero ball a lot, we might see it a hand full of times throughout the season. Either he wont be able to, because of age/heatlth or he might try to force the action and heart the team.

beasted86
10-02-2014, 11:00 PM
The injuries have caused Wade to fall off is where the comparison lies.

Wait... so disregarding injuries he has fallen off? Was he supposed to keep averaging 25+ a game as the second option on a team with 3 great scorers? This is a real question. What was he realistically supposed to be averaging as an effective 2nd option? Please try and be reasonable with your response, and you also shouldn't go over games missed in your response either since that wasn't your original talking point.


You're lumping in postseason games to make it seem better than it really is, but the bottom line is that he missed about 60 games over the last three years and his production has dropped off significantly, and that was with him only playing 32-34 minutes per night and taking on less of the offensive burden with Lebron on the roster.
Those are included and important because that was the basis of holding him out or him sitting out some games he could have played if it mattered. Point of emphasis being he didn't sit any playoff games for the past 6 years.


The odds are likely that Wade will play fewer than 70 regular season games this year. That's not an insult to him as a player or to Heat fans. That's just the most likely scenario.


Rose, I get. He's easily the worst offender of the group. But Kobe had hardly been injury prone prior to the Achilles injury. Why is it ridiculous to think he could come back and be a very good player given how much of an Iron Man he has been over the course of his career?

I don't know how many games Wade will play next season, but the topic is discussing two other players that essentially didn't play last season if we are going to be real about it. The 6 games and 10 games the respective players played they didn't look remotely close to what they were, so it basically almost counts as if they didn't play. Wade played 74 games. Im not sure they are relevantly comparable. Like I said before, Westbrook only played 65 games regular season and playoffs combined (46 regular season) and had a down year shooting efficiency wise, and led the league in turnovers. Should we include him?

mightybosstone
10-02-2014, 11:21 PM
Wait... so disregarding injuries he has fallen off? Was he supposed to keep averaging 25+ a game as the second option on a team with 3 great scorers? This is a real question. What was he realistically supposed to be averaging as an effective 2nd option? Please try and be reasonable with your response, and you also shouldn't go over games missed in your response either since that wasn't your original talking point.
You're being insanely naive if you think Wade is the same guy he was four years ago or that he's capable of being that guy again. And is he capable of averaging 25+ a night on the same roster as Lebron and Bosh? Yes. He did it in 2010-11. The reason he never did it again was because injuries took their toll and he's just not the same player he used to be. Any reasonable NBA fan can see that.


Those are included and important because that was the basis of holding him out or him sitting out some games he could have played if it mattered. Point of emphasis being he didn't sit any playoff games for the past 6 years.
Yes, and it's a point of emphasis for me as well. Because if Wade needs to sit out 25+ games again this year just to be healthy for the playoffs, Miami will be lucky to finish higher than a 6 or a 7 seed. The East is going to be a lot better this year and he doesn't have Lebron to fall back on anymore. He's going to have to play and he's going to have to be damn good.


I don't know how many games Wade will play next season, but the topic is discussing two other players that essentially didn't play last season if we are going to be real about it. The 6 games and 10 games the respective players played they didn't look remotely close to what they were, so it basically almost counts as if they didn't play. Wade played 74 games. Im not sure they are relevantly comparable. Like I said before, Westbrook only played 65 games regular season and playoffs combined (46 regular season) and had a down year shooting efficiency wise, and led the league in turnovers. Should we include him?
You're being dense. Westbrook has had one injury plagued season in his entire career. And prior to last season, Kobe hadn't missed more than nine games in a season since 2005. On the flip side, Wade has missed 13+ games in each of the last three seasons and has played in fewer than 70 games in five of the last eight seasons. Wade is clearly far more injury prone historically than Westbrook and Kobe. And it doesn't take a rocket scientest to understand that concept.

Sadds The Gr8
10-02-2014, 11:32 PM
I'd rather have in order

Kobe
Rose
Wade

beasted86
10-03-2014, 12:20 AM
You're being insanely naive if you think Wade is the same guy he was four years ago or that he's capable of being that guy again. And is he capable of averaging 25+ a night on the same roster as Lebron and Bosh? Yes. He did it in 2010-11. The reason he never did it again was because injuries took their toll and he's just not the same player he used to be. Any reasonable NBA fan can see that.
There's a difference between a decline and falling off. That poster said he has fallen off. Maybe its best you let him answer for himself instead of jumping into that discussion we were having.



Yes, and it's a point of emphasis for me as well. Because if Wade needs to sit out 25+ games again this year just to be healthy for the playoffs, Miami will be lucky to finish higher than a 6 or a 7 seed. The East is going to be a lot better this year and he doesn't have Lebron to fall back on anymore. He's going to have to play and he's going to have to be damn good.

You are regurgitating your same points without answering my question about the relevacy. How are the 3 relevant when speaking about injuries when one played all of last season, and the others didn't play at all last season. One has been "dealing with" minor age/degenerative conditions, while the others are "recovering" from injuries that have ended some player's careers. Huge difference here between a player dealing with something, and another recovering from something. I don't understand how you can't grasp a concept so simple.



You're being dense. Westbrook has had one injury plagued season in his entire career. And prior to last season, Kobe hadn't missed more than nine games in a season since 2005. On the flip side, Wade has missed 13+ games in each of the last three seasons and has played in fewer than 70 games in five of the last eight seasons. Wade is clearly far more injury prone historically than Westbrook and Kobe. And it doesn't take a rocket scientest to understand that concept.
Kobe has had two consecutive season ending injuries and is older with more mileage, and you think he's the safer bet to who you think will play more games? I think you are clearly the dense one here. Everyone should expect Wade to be Wade. Yes, he will likely miss a few games. Who the hell knows how many games Kobe plays. He may look fine now until you see that "Mamba face" and him limping off the court again.

Tony_Starks
10-03-2014, 12:28 AM
Well yeah, but there really is no point in that. It's like saying, who would win in a battle between Superman and Batman? You'll be debating for an eternity. It's just that these three have been inactive for so long. I personally think Rose is going to be a bust. He's probably finished considering he had arguably the worst performance for a USA player. I can't doubt Kobe so I gotta put him ahead of Wade. Wade's knees are just finished.


I notice you keep going back to Rose summer stats to count him out. You do realize Team USA stats are pretty much worthless right? That's like bringing up someone's allstar game stats.

When I watched him this summer I only cared about a few things: does he still have a first step, can he still beat his man to the basket off the bounce, and can he still finish around the rim.

Even though he was rusty he looked very comfortable and capable of doing all those things, which are the base of his game.

mightybosstone
10-03-2014, 08:25 AM
There's a difference between a decline and falling off. That poster said he has fallen off. Maybe its best you let him answer for himself instead of jumping into that discussion we were having.
I can jump into whatever conversation I want to. These are public threads and public conversations. If you don't want to have someone join your conversation, then have that conversation through private messages.


You are regurgitating your same points without answering my question about the relevacy. How are the 3 relevant when speaking about injuries when one played all of last season, and the others didn't play at all last season. One has been "dealing with" minor age/degenerative conditions, while the others are "recovering" from injuries that have ended some player's careers. Huge difference here between a player dealing with something, and another recovering from something. I don't understand how you can't grasp a concept so simple.

Yes, of course they're relevant to group together. If you've been on PSD all summer, then you've seen the multitude of threads about these guys and how they'll perform this season. I'll admit that the circumstances for the three players are very different. Rose and Kobe are coming off of more serious injuries to return to their role as a No. 1 guy while Wade is just coming off of an injury plagued season and an offseason where the team's best player left to become the No. 1 guy.

But I don't recall OP or anyone else saying that their circumstances were identical. All he said was that these three players were past their primes and their teams weren't going to be "all that great," so he asked our opinion on how good they would be and good their teams would be. Circumstances don't have to be identical in sports to make a comparison. As long as you provide context for your comparison, you can make as many apples to oranges comparisons as you'd like.


Kobe has had two consecutive season ending injuries and is older with more mileage, and you think he's the safer bet to who you think will play more games? I think you are clearly the dense one here. Everyone should expect Wade to be Wade. Yes, he will likely miss a few games. Who the hell knows how many games Kobe plays. He may look fine now until you see that "Mamba face" and him limping off the court again.
But you're conveniently glossing over the fact that Wade has been FAR more injury prone over the course of his career and Kobe has been one of the healthiest, hard working athletes in the history of professional sports. If there's any athlete on the planet who can come back from two season ending surgeries to be insanely productive again, it's Kobe Bryant. Whereas I have no reason believe that Wade will ever give us prime Wade ever again.

And this isn't coming from some Wade hater. This is coming from someone who has loathed Kobe his entire career and who consistently has said that Wade's peak crushes Kobe's peak. So I'm about as objective on this issue as you're going to find on PSD.

mightybosstone
10-03-2014, 08:30 AM
I notice you keep going back to Rose summer stats to count him out. You do realize Team USA stats are pretty much worthless right? That's like bringing up someone's allstar game stats.

When I watched him this summer I only cared about a few things: does he still have a first step, can he still beat his man to the basket off the bounce, and can he still finish around the rim.

Even though he was rusty he looked very comfortable and capable of doing all those things, which are the base of his game.

But there's one thing you're not considering. Since that season ending injury in 2011-12, we've had only two sample sizes of Derrick Rose basketball to really get any legitimate information from: 10 games last season and his performance with Team USA. And both were absolutely god awful. It would be one thing if he just wasn't getting that many minutes with Team USA or just wasn't taking that many shots, but he got plenty of minutes and he took plenty of shots. He just sucked.

I'm trying to be optimistic about the guy. It's good for the NBA if he can return to form and stay healthy, and with the exception of a couple of fan bases in the East, I'm sure everyone would rather Rose return to his prime and play great basketball than become a shell of himself and be out of the league in a few years. But I just haven't seen anything to support that the former is very likely.

2-ONE-5
10-03-2014, 08:53 AM
[quote=2-one-5;29098147]

Wade could put up those numbers.

yea, maybe in 2K

it will be more like 16/4/2 on 46% shooting and at lweast 25 games missed en route to a 7 seed or worse

2-ONE-5
10-03-2014, 08:57 AM
0% Wade puts up those #'s and Miami wins 48? Deng was a nice pickup and they're still better than the majority of the teams in the East along with 6 or 7 teams in the West. Seeing as they play the East more often, that comes out to around 48 wins by my count. Why do you disagree?

Wade is reportedly in great shape and will be asked to play a couple more mpg than he did last year. He will also have a much higher Usage% than he did last year (where he put up ~19/5/5 on 55%). I'd say 24/5/6 on 50% is pretty realistic for this season. Why do you disagree?

they are worse than the top 9-10 teams in the West and in teh East they are behind the Cavs, Bulls, Hornets, Wizards, Raptors, Nets, Atlanta and in a toss up with the Knicks and had PG not gone down behind Indy too.

mightybosstone
10-03-2014, 09:00 AM
yea, maybe in 2K

it will be more like 16/4/2 on 46% shooting and at lweast 25 games missed en route to a 7 seed or worse

Mmm... I don't think those numbers are very realistic at all, dude. With the second lowest USG% of his career on the same team with Lebron James, he was able to muster 19/5/5/2 on 55% shooting. How in the hell is he going to dropoff THAT MUCH by losing Lebron. Shouldn't he be getting far more of the offensive load in this offense now? Also, the FG% just isn't very likely at all. He only shot worse than 47% twice in his entire career: his rookie season and the injury plagued year in 07-08. And the lowest he shot in the last four seasons was 49.7%.

I think something like 21/6/4/2 on 50% shooting is far more likely.

2-ONE-5
10-03-2014, 09:06 AM
i dont see it. i dont think he will be able to handle being the #1 and Deng is gonna miss games himself to add to Wades burden and no one knows to to expect from Bosh in terms of how he will be used. i think Wade has a injury plagued season and struggles mightly

mightybosstone
10-03-2014, 09:12 AM
i dont see it. i dont think he will be able to handle being the #1 and Deng is gonna miss games himself to add to Wades burden and no one knows to to expect from Bosh in terms of how he will be used. i think Wade has a injury plagued season and struggles mightly

But he missed just as many games last year that you're suggesting he'll miss this season, he was the No. 2 on that team and he put up far, far better numbers than what you're suggesting. How does that make sense? Even if he does have an injury plagued season, you're suggesting that a guy with a bigger role in the offense will just suddenly put up inferior numbers to a season in which he had a lesser role. Plus, the very premise of predicting a serious injury is just asinine.

Your logic just doesn't add up. You're adding 2+2 and getting 3.

2-ONE-5
10-03-2014, 09:26 AM
the injuries are easy to predict even you know that. i just dont think Miami is good and i have 0 faith in their coach who had it easy the last 4 years. like i said had PG not gone down i wouldnt even think Miami would be a playoff team.

mightybosstone
10-03-2014, 09:31 AM
the injuries are easy to predict even you know that. i just dont think Miami is good and i have 0 faith in their coach who had it easy the last 4 years. like i said had PG not gone down i wouldnt even think Miami would be a playoff team.

No, injuries are not easy to predict. You can predict that Wade will get banged up and miss some games, sure. But for Wade to play as bad as you're suggesting, he'd have to have something major that causes him to miss huge chunks of the season and really nags him. Also, since when did supporting cast and coaching have anything to do with an individual player's production? Look at how productive Wade was on those mediocre Miami teams prior to Lebron jointing the Heat. That supporting cast was far, far worse than this one.

Again, I just don't think your logic adds up. You strike me as somebody who is just looking for an excuse to rip Wade before the start of the season.

2-ONE-5
10-03-2014, 09:36 AM
not at all i have no beef with Wade and he was one of my favorites for a long time goig back to college.

bucketss
10-03-2014, 10:32 AM
kobe is washed up
wade is to unfortunately because of his knees


but with rose i don't think many have called him washed up considering how hyped the bulls are.

WaDe03
10-03-2014, 10:48 AM
[quote=wade03;29098266]

yea, maybe in 2k

it will be more like 16/4/2 on 46% shooting and at lweast 25 games missed en route to a 7 seed or worse

0% chance of that happening well see who's numbers are closer and I'll let you know when you're wrong.

D-Leethal
10-03-2014, 10:50 AM
fair enough. my only point was that i think people have been saying wade is washed way too much and i think that is fueled by some fans being reluctant to ever criticize James.

I don't think you need to criticize James to realize he was never good for Wade's game. James is a ball dominant guy (deservingly so) who masters the drive and kick game. That means the guys around him are getting mainly kickouts. Kickouts are designed for guys who can catch and shoot. By the time he kicks to the weakside and the weakside guy slashes, the strong side defender is back in position in the paint, making it tough to slash off the kickout.

It was never good for Wade's game playing off James. He won't have to shoot as many jumpers now and his knees will not be exposed as much because he will be the guy getting screens making it easier for him to beat his man in to the paint, than he can wreak havoc with his soft touch and passing ability from the inside. He was the guy trying to beat his man 1 v 1 on the weakside dump offs - thats why his knees were exposed, he won't have to play 1v1 iso anymore, he will be playing the two man game with Bosh.

When you don't fit into your role you will appear to be more "washed up" than you really are. Wade will go back to his bread and butter and bounce back in a big way.

DanG
10-03-2014, 11:50 AM
Wade: 20-5-6 on 47% plays 55 games, miami wins 45 games 5th seed

Kobe: 24-5-6 on 44% plays 70 games, lakers win 46 games 8th seed

Rose: 21-4-7 on 42% plays 75 games, bulls win 55 games 1st seed

J_M_B
10-03-2014, 06:12 PM
Kobe: 24-5-5 on 43%, misses 10-15 games, Lakers win 37 games

Wade: 23-5-6 on 49%, misses 15 games, Heat win 48 games 4th seed

Rose: 19-3-6 on 42%, misses 10-20 games, Bulls win 57 games 1st seed

I'm actually pretty high on all of them

numba1CHANGsta
10-03-2014, 06:31 PM
Kobe will have a better season than both, but Wade/Rose teams will go further in the playoffs

benzni
10-03-2014, 06:36 PM
Kobe : 19-5-4 (110 O-RTG) - Lakers 32Wins
Wade : 21.5-5-5 (108 ORTG) - Heat 41Wins
D-Rose : 18.5 -3-6 (106 ORTG) Bulls win 51 games


Im bullish on all these guys but I have the most hope in Kobe tho his team should be crap.

C'mon. How can you expect the Lakers to win 32 games AND have the Heat only win 41. 9 More wins for a much more talented team. That makes 0 sense. Plus the fact that the Lakers play in a much tougher conference.


Edit: The guy 2 posts above me posting 37 wins for the Lakers is ludicrous.

canefandynasty
10-03-2014, 06:39 PM
Wade will have the best advanced/efficiency numbers, Kobe will have the best volume numbers, Rose's team will be the most successful

HeatFan
10-03-2014, 06:48 PM
It's been a common theme this summer that these guys are pretty much washed up and their teams won't be that great. But they each have something to prove this year. Just wanted to get everyone's take on these 3 now before the season starts.

How good do you think each will be, with what effect on their team?

I would have to say that because Kobe's game has more finesse than Wade and Rose, he should probably have the best likelihood of bouncing back. I read something the other day where Wade said he hasn't been practicing his 3 point shot much at all. If that is true, then I hope he has a backup plan because speed isn't his thing anymore. Almost the same goes for Rose.

Munkeysuit
10-03-2014, 06:56 PM
Love those 3 dudes, but they will be in decline, Rose looks very spry and crisp with his movements BUT hasn't played a full season in years! we need to see where his conditioning is at before assuming anything at this point. Kobe Bryant won't ever be the same ,he's too stubborn to admit that and real fans of his just don't want to admit that period! Wade HAS BEEN in decline and it was happening right before our very eyes and at times right at the biggest moments of his career! In my honest opinion, he's done and has been done.
I am not saying they will drop off the face of the Earth and become terrible players, what I mean by my statement is that they won't be the same players as they each were 4-5 years ago and we will see that this season.

J_M_B
10-03-2014, 07:25 PM
C'mon. How can you expect the Lakers to win 32 games AND have the Heat only win 41. 9 More wins for a much more talented team. That makes 0 sense. Plus the fact that the Lakers play in a much tougher conference.


Edit: The guy 2 posts above me posting 37 wins for the Lakers is ludicrous.

So predicting the Lakers are going to be a fringe bottom 10 team is ludicrous? There isn't much talent on their roster, but Kobe is one of the hardest workers this sport has ever seen and we have already seen him play at a very high level at an advanced age before. So yea I can definitely see him winning a handful of games on his own. His team won 27 games last season without him

mrblisterdundee
10-04-2014, 12:22 AM
It's been a common theme this summer that these guys are pretty much washed up and their teams won't be that great.

I don't think the Bulls weren't expected to be great, or at least pretty good.
They had possibly the second-best offseason, got Pau Gasol up front and finally took order of the best player in the Euroleague in Nikola Mirotic. They have reigning Defensive Player of the Year Joakim Noah at center. It's reasonably that Jimmy Butler and Taj Gibson could be better than last season.
Derrick Rose has much less of an injury history than Dwyane Wade and is seven years younger, not to mention they the Bulls have Aaron Brooks and Kirk Hinrich backing him up. He had a safe showing as a role player on Team USA and just needs to shake a lot of rust off.
I'd say it's a pretty solid roster that could've gone toe to toe with last season's Pacers.

SaimuKala
10-04-2014, 01:34 AM
C'mon. How can you expect the Lakers to win 32 games AND have the Heat only win 41. 9 More wins for a much more talented team. That makes 0 sense. Plus the fact that the Lakers play in a much tougher conference.


Edit: The guy 2 posts above me posting 37 wins for the Lakers is ludicrous.

Lakers>Heat ;)

mightybosstone
10-04-2014, 08:44 AM
Wade: 20-5-6 on 47% plays 55 games, miami wins 45 games 5th seed

Kobe: 24-5-6 on 44% plays 70 games, lakers win 46 games 8th seed

Rose: 21-4-7 on 42% plays 75 games, bulls win 55 games 1st seed

:laugh:

You were fine until you said this. That's just completely delusional. Not only will the Lakers not come close to 46 wins, but 46 wins may not even be enough to even make the playoffs in the Western Conference next year.

WaDe03
10-04-2014, 10:47 AM
Wade: 24-4-8-50% shooting. Heat win 50 and get 3rd seed.

Kobe: 22-5-6-45% shooting. Lakers win 32 and get another lottery pick.

Rose: 20-3-9-47% shooting. I think he will be more of an actual PG this season. Bulls win 58 games and get 1st seed only if Rose is healthy.

beasted86
10-04-2014, 01:55 PM
It's been a common theme this summer that these guys are pretty much washed up
Re:


But I don't recall OP or anyone else saying that their circumstances were identical.

He says all three are washed up as though Wade has been sitting out the last year like the other two. The context is both other guys had career threatening injuries, everyone was optimistic about their return stating the same garbage that's spewing from your mouth now about "they are the hardest workers ever, that last injury was just a freak injury and they've been healthy before this, and they will be better than ever", and then basically as soon as they played a handful of games went down with another season ending injury. And this is comparable to a guy who at worst missed 9 straight games, but played all playoffs and played at an ultra elite level for a 2nd option in the ECF?

Do you read and comprehend? Do you have basic reasoning skills? I doubt you have either based on your responses, so no longer will I waste time here.

Vinny642
10-04-2014, 02:43 PM
Kobe is gonna average 21-3-3

Wade is gonna average 17-6.5 assists-5 rebounds

Rose- 19.5pnts-8.7assist-4.5reb

smith&wesson
10-04-2014, 04:08 PM
I think its down hill for all three from here on out. wade and kobe acomplished alot and had good careers. feel bad for rose.

mightybosstone
10-04-2014, 04:36 PM
He says all three are washed up as though Wade has been sitting out the last year like the other two.
Uh... no, sir. I believe that's you assuming something that the guy never said. Since when does "washed up" have necessarily anything to do with injuries or the number of games athletes play? Generally it's a term that means a player is well past his prime, which I can't really disagree with.


The context is both other guys had career threatening injuries, everyone was optimistic about their return stating the same garbage that's spewing from your mouth now about "they are the hardest workers ever, that last injury was just a freak injury and they've been healthy before this, and they will be better than ever", and then basically as soon as they played a handful of games went down with another season ending injury. And this is comparable to a guy who at worst missed 9 straight games, but played all playoffs and played at an ultra elite level for a 2nd option in the ECF?
But no one said Wade's nagging injuries are comparable to the serious, season ending injuries that Kobe and Rose dealt with the last two seasons. No one. You're assuming that's what they're saying and making that comparison yourself. You're arguing with basically nobody... :shrug:


Do you read and comprehend? Do you have basic reasoning skills? I doubt you have either based on your responses, so no longer will I waste time here.
:laugh: No, sir. I believe you are the one who lacks reading comprehension abilities. You inferred something based on OP's original post and then continue to rant about an issue that's basically off topic to begin with. Nobody in thread except for you was comparing Wade's nagging injuries to what Rose and Kobe have been through lately. We're looking solely at production moving forward.

Although I agree you should stop wasting everyone's time in this thread making an argument no one gives two ***** about. At least that was a rare smart move on your part.

IKnowHoops
10-04-2014, 04:50 PM
Very easy to pick out homers in this thread. Chronic meltdowns. Anyway. If none of them having season ending injuries during the year, I think by the half way point of the season Rose will be the best and most productive of them all.

Kobe 17/4/4 on 39% FG
Wade 16.5/5/5 on 43% FG
Rose 18/7/4 on 43% FG

IKnowHoops
01-15-2015, 07:53 PM
It's been a common theme this summer that these guys are pretty much washed up and their teams won't be that great. But they each have something to prove this year. Just wanted to get everyone's take on these 3 now before the season starts.

How good do you think each will be, with what effect on their team?


I think Kobe will put up ~17/5/4 on 42% FG, miss ~20 games and throw a locker room forearm shiver at Nick Young somewhere around game 25. Lakers record: 22-60

I think Rose will put up 19/3/6.5 on 43% FG and miss 1/3rd of the season. Bulls record: 51-31

I think Wade will put up 24/5/6 on 50% FG and miss 20 games. Miami record: 48/34


Kobe Bryant: 25-5-6 44% fg
Dwyane Wade: 20-5-6 48% fg
Derrick Rose: 20-3-7 42% fg


Wade
Rose
Kobe

Wade is by far the safest choice to be the best imo.


Kobe : 19-5-4 (110 O-RTG) - Lakers 32Wins
Wade : 21.5-5-5 (108 ORTG) - Heat 41Wins
D-Rose : 18.5 -3-6 (106 ORTG) Bulls win 51 games


Im bullish on all these guys but I have the most hope in Kobe tho his team should be crap.


Wade: 20-5-6 on 47% plays 55 games, miami wins 45 games 5th seed

Kobe: 24-5-6 on 44% plays 70 games, lakers win 46 games 8th seed

Rose: 21-4-7 on 42% plays 75 games, bulls win 55 games 1st seed


Kobe: 24-5-5 on 43%, misses 10-15 games, Lakers win 37 games

Wade: 23-5-6 on 49%, misses 15 games, Heat win 48 games 4th seed

Rose: 19-3-6 on 42%, misses 10-20 games, Bulls win 57 games 1st seed

I'm actually pretty high on all of them


Wade: 24-4-8-50% shooting. Heat win 50 and get 3rd seed.

Kobe: 22-5-6-45% shooting. Lakers win 32 and get another lottery pick.

Rose: 20-3-9-47% shooting. I think he will be more of an actual PG this season. Bulls win 58 games and get 1st seed only if Rose is healthy.


Very easy to pick out homers in this thread. Chronic meltdowns. Anyway. If none of them having season ending injuries during the year, I think by the half way point of the season Rose will be the best and most productive of them all.

Kobe 17/4/4 on 39% FG
Wade 16.5/5/5 on 43% FG
Rose 18/7/4 on 43% FG

Even I didn't have him shooting this poorly, and no one else had him under 41%. Suffice to say nobody had him shooting this poorly.

Tony_Starks
01-15-2015, 09:47 PM
I think Kobe will put up ~17/5/4 on 42% FG, miss ~20 games and throw a locker room forearm shiver at Nick Young somewhere around game 25. Lakers record: 22-60


I rest my case your honor. According to haters Kobe is supposed to be averaging 17 points, AND bullying Swaggy....SM, MF'N H.

2-ONE-5
01-16-2015, 12:20 PM
lol since when does a prediction mean that something is supposed to happen? Also doesnt Kobe hate nick young?

FlashBolt
01-16-2015, 12:25 PM
I rest my case your honor. According to haters Kobe is supposed to be averaging 17 points, AND bullying Swaggy....SM, MF'N H.

This was a complete prediction.. Kobe SHOULD be averaging 17 PPG but he's taking way too many shots. For someone who is 36 and shooting the way he has, you would think Kobe would decide to play more PG duty and pick his shots carefully to preserve energy. Bullying Swaggy.. C'mon. We all know Kobe secretly hates Swaggy on a competitive level. He's just relating with Swaggy because he sees HIMSELF in him.

Chronz
01-16-2015, 01:17 PM
I was petty dead on when it came to Wade. I was way off on Kobe tho