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DemarDerozan
09-30-2014, 10:18 PM
The PG thread brought up some good conversation. There has been a lot of talk about the best bigs in the league.

List your top 20.

Here's mine:

LMA (does it all and efficiently)
Noah (wins games with defense)
Anthony Davis (could be #1 by seasons end)
DMC (becoming the best offensive big)
Tim Duncan (still dominates in the clutch)
Blake Griffin (beast)
Marc Gasol (Best rim protector that doesn't shot 40% at the line)
Serge Ibaka (dominates both sides)
Kevin Love (best under the rim rebounder. Diverse offensive skill set)
Dirk (could leave the Mavs to another Finals appearance)
Chris Bosh (will go back to first option numbers, expect 24/10/1/1)
Al Horford (consistent All Star)
Andre Drummond (freak of nature with high BBall IQ)
Al Jefferson (good stats, bad efficiency)
Dwight Howard (overall on the decline)
Deandre Jordan
Greg Monroe
Kenneth Faried
Nikola Vucevic
Roy Hibbert


Honorable mention: Pau Gasol, JVal, John Henson, David West, Larry Sanders, Brook Lopez, Tyson Chandler, Zach Randolph, Pekovich, Paul Millisap, Tiago Splitter, Derrick Favors, Miles Plumlee, Mozgov

JEDean89
09-30-2014, 10:36 PM
I do believe that Davis and Cousins will cement themselves as the best bigs in the game by seasons end. People should seriously consider taking this dude #1 in Fantasy. His Blocks and Steals are insane.

5ass
09-30-2014, 10:47 PM
Dwight is still the best big in the game.

JEDean89
09-30-2014, 10:58 PM
^^^ haha you wish, Davis has already surppased Dwight as a 2 way player.

Dwight
18 pts 12 rbds 1.8 blocks .8 steals 55% FT shooting 21.4 PER 3.4 fouls in 34 mins.

Davis
21 pts 10 rbds 2.8 blocks 1.3 steals 79% FT shooting 26.6 PER 3 flouls 35 mins.

Soooo Davis is the better scorer, shot blocker and pocket picker, the better free throw shoot (by only 24%) and gets fewer fouls in more minutes. So how exactly is Dwight better? Davis is 2 inches taller, they sport the same wingspan, Davis is almost 250 lbs to Dwights 265 (listed). Literally the only thing Dwight does better than Davis is rebound. Davis is also a way better leader than Dwight too. So please explain, how is Dwight better?

THE MTL
09-30-2014, 11:04 PM
Dwight Howard is NOT the 15th best big in the NBA. 18ppg 12rpg 2bpg and 59% FG on a bad season. Remember that.

Dwight Howard is a top 5 big.

THE MTL
09-30-2014, 11:10 PM
The PG thread brought up some good conversation. There has been a lot of talk about the best bigs in the league.

List your top 20.

Here's mine:

LMA (does it all and efficiently)
Noah (wins games with defense)
Anthony Davis (could be #1 by seasons end)
DMC (becoming the best offensive big)
Tim Duncan (still dominates in the clutch)
Blake Griffin (beast)
Marc Gasol (Best rim protector that doesn't shot 40% at the line)
Serge Ibaka (dominates both sides)
Kevin Love (best under the rim rebounder. Diverse offensive skill set)
Dirk (could leave the Mavs to another Finals appearance)
Chris Bosh (will go back to first option numbers, expect 24/10/1/1)
Al Horford (consistent All Star)
Andre Drummond (freak of nature with high BBall IQ)
Al Jefferson (good stats, bad efficiency)
Dwight Howard (overall on the decline)
Deandre Jordan
Greg Monroe
Kenneth Faried
Nikola Vucevic
Roy Hibbert


Honorable mention: Pau Gasol, JVal, John Henson, David West, Larry Sanders, Brook Lopez, Tyson Chandler, Zach Randolph, Pekovich, Paul Millisap, Tiago Splitter, Derrick Favors, Miles Plumlee, Mozgov

I like Tim Duncan but in terms of pure ability he does not belong in the top 5. At this stage in his career he CANNOT do what Blake, Howard, and Love do or handle the immense workload those players do.

You forget that Duncan doesnt play at the end of the season, gets sat in back-to-backs, and averages 27mpg. He is completely perserved and sheltered in Pop's system and if not for Pop.....Duncan would probably look an awful like KG is now.

THE MTL
09-30-2014, 11:12 PM
^^^ haha you wish, Davis has already surppased Dwight as a 2 way player.

Dwight
18 pts 12 rbds 1.8 blocks .8 steals 55% FT shooting 21.4 PER 3.4 fouls in 34 mins.

Davis
21 pts 10 rbds 2.8 blocks 1.3 steals 79% FT shooting 26.6 PER 3 flouls 35 mins.

Soooo Davis is the better scorer, shot blocker and pocket picker, the better free throw shoot (by only 24%) and gets fewer fouls in more minutes. So how exactly is Dwight better? Davis is 2 inches taller, they sport the same wingspan, Davis is almost 250 lbs to Dwights 265 (listed). Literally the only thing Dwight does better than Davis is rebound. Davis is also a way better leader than Dwight too. So please explain, how is Dwight better?

Im willing to put Anthony Davis as a Top 5 NBA player next season.

mightybosstone
09-30-2014, 11:21 PM
I'm not a huge fan of dumping "bigs" into one all-encompassing category, because the PF position in particular has seen such a significant transition in recent years. But I'll bite anyway. He's a rough estimate of my list without too much research...

1. PF Kevin Love
2. PF Blake Griffin
3. PF/C Anthony Davis
4. C Dwight Howard
5. PF Dirk Nowitzki
6. C Joakim Noah
7. PF/C Tim Duncan
8. C Marc Gasol
9. PF LaMarcus Aldridge
10. PF/C Chris Bosh
11. C Al Jefferson
12. PF/C Al Horford
13. C DeMarcus Cousins
14. C Brook Lopez
15. PF Serge Ibaka
16. PF Paul Millsap
17. C Andre Drummond
18. PF David Lee
19. PF Zach Randolph
20. C DeAndre Jordan

That list was actually really hard. There were really good players I had to leave off, and I really struggled where to place guys like Horford and Lopez, who would almost certainly be in the top 10 if they were coming off of healthier seasons. Toward the bottom of the list, it was a matter of trying to balance offensive guys like Millsap, Lee and Randolph with defensive guys like Ibaka, Drummond and Jordan. Some tough omits included Roy Hibbert, Nikola Pekovic, Tyson Chandler, Marcin Gortat, David West, Pau Gasol, Andrew Bogut, Ryan Anderson and Omer Asik.

Seizabmc
09-30-2014, 11:22 PM
Wow even after winning the ring and going to back to back finals,
Tim Duncan still gets under rated.

For crying out loud.
Because of Tim Duncan the spurs won the finals.
There are other areas of the game that matter.
To be honest, I rather take Tim Duncan's leadership over Dwight's athletic ability.
You people are crazy .

Tim Duncan is still top five big man.

Along with Marc g,Dwight Howard ,Andrew Drummond, anthony Davis, DMc, LA,Kevin love,Noah , al hortford .

mightybosstone
09-30-2014, 11:28 PM
Wow even after winning the ring and going to back to back finals,
Tim Duncan still gets under rated.

For crying out loud.
Because of Tim Duncan the spurs won the finals.
There are other areas of the game that matter.
To be honest, I rather take Tim Duncan's leadership over Dwight's athletic ability.
You people are crazy .

Tim Duncan is still top five big man.

Along with Marc g,Dwight Howard ,Andrew Drummond, anthony Davis, DMc, LA,Kevin love,Noah , al hortford .

But he doesn't produce at the level of a top five big man anymore or play the minutes of a top five big man. Also, I love how you just said that Duncan was a top five big man alongside other players and then proceeded to name nine other guys. Ten players cannot be in the top five. Numbers don't work that way...

koreancabbage
09-30-2014, 11:38 PM
Wow even after winning the ring and going to back to back finals,
Tim Duncan still gets under rated.

For crying out loud.
Because of Tim Duncan the spurs won the finals.
There are other areas of the game that matter.
To be honest, I rather take Tim Duncan's leadership over Dwight's athletic ability.
You people are crazy .

Tim Duncan is still top five big man.

Along with Marc g,Dwight Howard ,Andrew Drummond, anthony Davis, DMc, LA,Kevin love,Noah , al hortford .

na, he's not. He's not the main (or second or third) reason why the Spurs won the championship. He is a smart player but in no way is he a top 5 big man in the NBA anymore. top 10 maybe, but not top 5. He rests too much (sits out games, long rest periods) as well as limited use as well due to the beautiful way the Spurs play the game now.

mightybosstone
09-30-2014, 11:44 PM
na, he's not. He's not the main (or second or third) reason why the Spurs won the championship.

This is just simply not true. Remotely. At all. Tim Duncan is still the best player on the San Antonio Spurs. He may not have been the best player in the Finals against Miami, but he certainly was the best player overall in the postseason and the Spurs would not have made the Finals in the first place without him.

I do agree that he's not a top five big anymore. But to suggest he wasn't even one of the three most important reasons why the Spurs won the Finals last year is just asinine.

abe_froman
10-01-2014, 01:17 AM
in no order
1.lopez
2.jefferson
3.horford
4.bosh
5.love
6.drummond
7.noah
8.dirk
9.m.gasol
10.p. gasol
11.davis
12.lma
13.ibaka
14.lee
15.griffin
16.jordan
17.howard
18.cousins
19.milsap
20.timmy

Punk
10-01-2014, 01:49 AM
In order:

1. Davis
2. Griffin
3. Love
4. Dirk
5. M. Gasol
6. J. Noah
7. Howard
8. Aldridge
9. Serge Ibaka
10. Brook Lopez
11. Chris Bosh
12. Tim Duncan
13. DeMarcus Cousins
14. Kenneth Faried
15. Al Horford
16. Pau Gasol
17. DeAndre Jordan
18. Zach Randolph
19. Paul Milsap
20. Andre Drummond

Goose17
10-01-2014, 04:32 AM
Are people sleeping on Taj or is he just not considered a "big man" because he doesn't have the size to play C?

akia83
10-01-2014, 05:33 AM
LMA (does it all and efficiently)

Are you kidding?
45%FG without any 3's. Everyone on your list is more effecient than LMA

MILLERHIGHLIFE
10-01-2014, 10:01 AM
Could give a honorable mention to Jabari Parker and Ersan Ilyasova as well. Also Randle from Lakers. Probably few other rookies as well like Embiid when healthy.

True Sports Fan
10-01-2014, 10:19 AM
Could give a honorable mention to Jabari Parker and Ersan Ilyasova as well. Also Randle from Lakers. Probably few other rookies as well like Embiid when healthy.

Gotta see what Parker/Randle/Embiid do before already considering them for top 20 bigs in the league.

TheGame
10-01-2014, 11:01 AM
Since when are guys that are 6'6 and 6'7 considered centers?

Here's the top 20 centers list without deep research. Just going by what I know

Duncan
Howard
Jordan
Noah
Jefferson
M. Gasol
Drummund
P. Gasol
Chandler
Ibaka
Dieng
Bogut
Embid
Vucivic

That's really all that deserve to be on a center list.
guys like cousins can't be trusted and has been proven to be a loser in his 4 seasons in the NBA.

Dirk and Aldridge are PF's everthough they like 6'11-7'0

Oefarmy2005
10-01-2014, 12:48 PM
I'm not a huge fan of dumping "bigs" into one all-encompassing category, because the PF position in particular has seen such a significant transition in recent years. But I'll bite anyway. He's a rough estimate of my list without too much research...

1. PF Kevin Love
2. PF Blake Griffin
3. PF/C Anthony Davis
4. C Dwight Howard
5. PF Dirk Nowitzki
6. C Joakim Noah
7. PF/C Tim Duncan
8. C Marc Gasol
9. PF LaMarcus Aldridge
10. PF/C Chris Bosh
11. C Al Jefferson
12. PF/C Al Horford
13. C DeMarcus Cousins
14. C Brook Lopez
15. PF Serge Ibaka
16. PF Paul Millsap
17. C Andre Drummond
18. PF David Lee
19. PF Zach Randolph
20. C DeAndre Jordan

That list was actually really hard. There were really good players I had to leave off, and I really struggled where to place guys like Horford and Lopez, who would almost certainly be in the top 10 if they were coming off of healthier seasons. Toward the bottom of the list, it was a matter of trying to balance offensive guys like Millsap, Lee and Randolph with defensive guys like Ibaka, Drummond and Jordan. Some tough omits included Roy Hibbert, Nikola Pekovic, Tyson Chandler, Marcin Gortat, David West, Pau Gasol, Andrew Bogut, Ryan Anderson and Omer Asik.

I think this is a pretty great list. You can argue any of the top 3 to switch spots between each other, but the rest very solid. I am not going to bother making my own, because it will look pretty much like yours. I'll say that Nowitzki and Lopez are a bit high and LMA is a bit low.

Byronicle
10-01-2014, 01:02 PM
Since when are guys that are 6'6 and 6'7 considered centers?

That's really all that deserve to be on a center list.
guys like cousins can't be trusted and has been proven to be a loser in his 4 seasons in the NBA.

Dirk and Aldridge are PF's everthough they like 6'11-7'0

Big men are both Centers and Power Forwards

Just like Wing men are both Shooting Guard and Small Forward

And forward is both Small Forward and Power forward

Guards are both Point Guards and Shooting Guards

abe_froman
10-01-2014, 01:03 PM
Since when are guys that are 6'6 and 6'7 considered centers?

big men consist of more than just centers,the term also includes pf's

TheGame
10-01-2014, 01:35 PM
big men consist of more than just centers,the term also includes pf's

Barkley was 6'5 and played PF. What about him?
Draymond Green is 6'5 and plays a lot of PF and will play even more next season? What about him

Brandon Bass is actually 6'6 he plays PF. What about him.

What about Durant who is 6'11 but plays like a soft SG?

Goose17
10-01-2014, 05:30 PM
Big men are both Centers and Power Forwards

Just like Wing men are both Shooting Guard and Small Forward

And forward is both Small Forward and Power forward

Guards are both Point Guards and Shooting Guards

He's new to the game, take it easy. He's probably still getting used to a lot of the terminology.

TheGame
10-01-2014, 05:48 PM
He's new to the game, take it easy. He's probably still getting used to a lot of the terminology.

I know what it means, but I don't like the terminology. A player is as big as they play. Look at the Big O who averaged a triple double.



Just call them Centers and Power Forwards is that so hard.

HeatFan
10-01-2014, 07:40 PM
The PG thread brought up some good conversation. There has been a lot of talk about the best bigs in the league.

List your top 20.

Here's mine:

LMA (does it all and efficiently)
Noah (wins games with defense)
Anthony Davis (could be #1 by seasons end)
DMC (becoming the best offensive big)
Tim Duncan (still dominates in the clutch)
Blake Griffin (beast)
Marc Gasol (Best rim protector that doesn't shot 40% at the line)
Serge Ibaka (dominates both sides)
Kevin Love (best under the rim rebounder. Diverse offensive skill set)
Dirk (could leave the Mavs to another Finals appearance)
Chris Bosh (will go back to first option numbers, expect 24/10/1/1)
Al Horford (consistent All Star)
Andre Drummond (freak of nature with high BBall IQ)
Al Jefferson (good stats, bad efficiency)
Dwight Howard (overall on the decline)
Deandre Jordan
Greg Monroe
Kenneth Faried
Nikola Vucevic
Roy Hibbert


Honorable mention: Pau Gasol, JVal, John Henson, David West, Larry Sanders, Brook Lopez, Tyson Chandler, Zach Randolph, Pekovich, Paul Millisap, Tiago Splitter, Derrick Favors, Miles Plumlee, Mozgov

Too early for Nerlins Noel?

DemarDerozan
10-02-2014, 12:43 PM
Too early for Nerlins Noel?

Let's see him play 30-40 games. Maybe he will be the savior of the 2013 NBA Draft.

mrblisterdundee
10-02-2014, 04:32 PM
1. Anthony Davis
2. Kevin Love
3. Dwight Howard
4. Blake Griffin
5. LaMarcus Aldridge
6. Dirk Nowitzki
7. Tim Duncan
8. Joakim Noah
9. Marc Gasol
10. DeMarcus Cousins
11. Chris Bosh
12. Serge Ibaka
13. Andre Drummond
14. Al Horford
15. Al Jefferson
16. Paul Millsap
17. Brook Lopez
18. DeAndre Jordan
19. Tyson Chandler
20. Zach Randolph

InRoseWeTrust
10-02-2014, 04:36 PM
LMA (does it all and efficiently)


Lmao what?!?!!?! His TS% was a paltry .507 last year - he needed over 20 shots a game to put up 23 points.



Al Jefferson (good stats, bad efficiency)


Meanwhile, your guy with 'bad' efficiency rolled with a .532 TS%.

You're wildly overrating LMA.

DemarDerozan
10-02-2014, 04:52 PM
Lmao what?!?!!?! His TS% was a paltry .507 last year - he needed over 20 shots a game to put up 23 points.



Meanwhile, your guy with 'bad' efficiency rolled with a .532 TS%.

You're wildly overrating LMA.

LMA was top ten in MVP voting last year. He was also the best player on a title contender. You can't say that for Dwight, Love, and nearly all of the other player on this list. He was fourth in voting for bigs. I would put Noah at 1b but he is better than Blake overall and far better than Big Al.

FlashBolt
10-02-2014, 05:12 PM
Not gonna lie but NBA is insanely talented. Look at the PG division and now the frontcourts... Just insanely stacked. There should be a new league or something.

Goose17
10-02-2014, 05:15 PM
1. Kendrick Perkins

2-100 everyone else.

FlashBolt
10-02-2014, 05:20 PM
1. Kendrick Perkins

2-100 everyone else.

.... I hate him so much. It was like he gave up when he was traded to us.

InRoseWeTrust
10-02-2014, 06:55 PM
LMA was top ten in MVP voting last year. He was also the best player on a title contender. You can't say that for Dwight, Love, and nearly all of the other player on this list. He was fourth in voting for bigs. I would put Noah at 1b but he is better than Blake overall and far better than Big Al.

That has nothing to do with his efficiency numbers, which are inferior to most of the guys on your list. I'm not saying LMA isn't a "good" player, but he's not an efficient big.

mightybosstone
10-02-2014, 07:45 PM
1. Anthony Davis
2. Kevin Love
3. Dwight Howard
4. Blake Griffin
5. LaMarcus Aldridge
6. Dirk Nowitzki
7. Tim Duncan
8. Joakim Noah
9. Marc Gasol
10. DeMarcus Cousins
11. Chris Bosh
12. Serge Ibaka
13. Andre Drummond
14. Al Horford
15. Al Jefferson
16. Paul Millsap
17. Brook Lopez
18. DeAndre Jordan
19. Tyson Chandler
20. Zach Randolph

I think Aldridge, Drummond and Cousins are a tad high, but overall this is a really solid list. The top four are very difficult to rank, and I could literally rank those guys in any particular order, but it's definitely Love, Griffin, Davis and Dwight. I also think 5-9 are definitely the guys that make the most sense to go next, and their order could be pretty easily debated. After that, it's a complete crapshoot. I would give Jefferson and Horford a little more love considering they're experienced veterans over guys like Cousins and Drummond, but it's really preference.

DemarDerozan
10-02-2014, 07:47 PM
That has nothing to do with his efficiency numbers, which are inferior to most of the guys on your list. I'm not saying LMA isn't a "good" player, but he's not an efficient big.

He is a good player... And definitely not overrated IMO. His shooting efficiency may not be great but he puts up consistent numbers and his performances wins games.

mightybosstone
10-02-2014, 08:01 PM
He is a good player... And definitely not overrated IMO. His shooting efficiency may not be great but he puts up consistent numbers and his performances wins games.

His efficiency isn't just "not great." It's straight up below average for a big man and definitely below average among other top 20-25 guys in the league. I think Aldridge is a top 10 big in the league and is a very good player, but if you think he's No. 1 overall, you're seriously misinformed. He's absolutely inferior offensively to guys like Griffin, Love and Dirk and absolutely inferior defensively to guys like Howard, Davis and Duncan, and I don't think he's good enough on the other end of the floor to make up the difference against those six guys.

FlashBolt
10-02-2014, 08:10 PM
But LaMarcus doesn't play close to the basket as much as other bigs do. He's out on the elbow most of the times. Heck, Dirk's FG% wasn't always great. Neither is Love's. Just because he can't hit the three - doesn't mean he doesn't score from afar. But I don't have him as a top 5. I'd rather have Dirk than him tbh.

mightybosstone
10-02-2014, 08:30 PM
But LaMarcus doesn't play close to the basket as much as other bigs do. He's out on the elbow most of the times. Heck, Dirk's FG% wasn't always great. Neither is Love's. Just because he can't hit the three - doesn't mean he doesn't score from afar. But I don't have him as a top 5. I'd rather have Dirk than him tbh.

But FG% isn't the testament of an efficient player. TS% is. And you don't have to play close to the basket or even be a legitimate 3-point threat to be efficient. But you do need to get to the free throw line if you can't do either of those things. And Aldridge is mediocre or non-existent in all three areas. He's essentially a really good mid-range shooters who has doesn't get to the rim or the free throw line and doesn't have enough range on his jumper to hit a 3-pointer consistently. There's no shame in that, but it's what separates guys like Love, Dirk and Griffin from him offensively. And until he learns to do at least one of those things at an elite level, he'll never be as good as those three guys.

FlashBolt
10-02-2014, 09:20 PM
But FG% isn't the testament of an efficient player. TS% is. And you don't have to play close to the basket or even be a legitimate 3-point threat to be efficient. But you do need to get to the free throw line if you can't do either of those things. And Aldridge is mediocre or non-existent in all three areas. He's essentially a really good mid-range shooters who has doesn't get to the rim or the free throw line and doesn't have enough range on his jumper to hit a 3-pointer consistently. There's no shame in that, but it's what separates guys like Love, Dirk and Griffin from him offensively. And until he learns to do at least one of those things at an elite level, he'll never be as good as those three guys.

TS% isn't **** when you have floppers like Harden getting freebie free throws.. Sorry, but Harden's TS would look bad without it.

Knicks Boogie
10-02-2014, 09:26 PM
Top 5 Centers

AD
Cousins
Drummond
D.Howard
Noah

Top 5 PFs

LA
Love
Blake
Bosh
Monroe

Guys like Duncan, Dirk, Stoudemire, KG have had their day and just don't play as consistent as the young hungry guys listed above. If you think I'm wrong, i bet you would never pick the older guys i mentioned over the bigs on my top 5 in your fantasy league.

Munkeysuit
10-02-2014, 10:10 PM
1. Anthony Davis
2. Dwight Howard
3. Serge Ibaka
4. LaMarcus Aldridge
5. Marc Gasol
6. Kevin Love
7. Blake Griffin
8. Tim Duncan
9. Joakim Noah
10. Zach Randolph
11. DeMarcus Cousins
12. Roy Hibbert
13. Chris bosh
14. DeAndre Jordan
15. Al Jefferson
16. Pau Gasol
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. Brook Lopez
19. David Lee
20. Kenneth Faried

mrblisterdundee
10-02-2014, 10:21 PM
I think Aldridge, Drummond and Cousins are a tad high, but overall this is a really solid list. The top four are very difficult to rank, and I could literally rank those guys in any particular order, but it's definitely Love, Griffin, Davis and Dwight. I also think 5-9 are definitely the guys that make the most sense to go next, and their order could be pretty easily debated. After that, it's a complete crapshoot. I would give Jefferson and Horford a little more love considering they're experienced veterans over guys like Cousins and Drummond, but it's really preference.

Jefferson's extra weak on defense, and Horford's coming back from a significant injury, so I dropped them down a bit. Cousins could realistically be the best offensive center in the NBA this season and had a great stint with Team USA, including some good defense. He basically matched Shaquille O'Neal's fourth-season performance Per 36 minutes last season.
Drummond's an efficient, two-way beast who seduced a little blonde Nickelodeon girl. And he's only going to be more terrifying every year.

mightybosstone
10-02-2014, 11:42 PM
TS% isn't **** when you have floppers like Harden getting freebie free throws.. Sorry, but Harden's TS would look bad without it.
:facepalm: Duh. Lots of free throws + solid free throw shooter = efficient basketball player.


Jefferson's extra weak on defense, and Horford's coming back from a significant injury, so I dropped them down a bit.
I actually think Jefferson is a better defensive center than people give him credit for. He can put a body on bigger centers and he can certainly hold his own on the defensive glass. I don't think he's any worse than guys like Cousins or Monroe.


Cousins could realistically be the best offensive center in the NBA this season and had a great stint with Team USA, including some good defense. He basically matched Shaquille O'Neal's fourth-season performance Per 36 minutes last season.
Yeah, but Shaq dealt with injuries that season, I believe, and it was easily one of the worst seasons of his prime. Cousins has yet to come close to touching the dominance that was prime Shaq. Even in one of Shaq's worst seasons, Cousins wasn't remotely as efficient, and Shaq was the better defender.

I just continue to see Cousins as the empty stat guy. Until his teams start winning games and I see him put forth the effort on defense and stop hearing about all the immature stuff off the court, I'm going to have a hard time taking him seriously.

[qutoe]Drummond's an efficient, two-way beast who seduced a little blonde Nickelodeon girl. And he's only going to be more terrifying every year.[/QUOTE]
He's going to keep getting better, but he's still really, really raw offensively. I'd take Jefferson or Horford over him easily right now. That conversation may change in 2-3 years, but for now he's got a long way to go.

mightybosstone
10-02-2014, 11:43 PM
1. Anthony Davis
2. Dwight Howard
3. Serge Ibaka
4. LaMarcus Aldridge
5. Marc Gasol
6. Kevin Love
7. Blake Griffin
8. Tim Duncan
9. Joakim Noah
10. Zach Randolph
11. DeMarcus Cousins
12. Roy Hibbert
13. Chris bosh
14. DeAndre Jordan
15. Al Jefferson
16. Pau Gasol
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. Brook Lopez
19. David Lee
20. Kenneth Faried

Is this list supposed to be in order? If so, it's not very good.

DemarDerozan
10-03-2014, 12:51 PM
Is this list supposed to be in order? If so, it's not very good.

If you take Davis off it looks like a good list from two years ago.

mightybosstone
10-03-2014, 01:03 PM
If you take Davis off it looks like a good list from two years ago.

Mmm.... some pieces of it do. The two major issues i have with the list are Ibaka third and Dirk 17th. Those are rankings are indefensible.

valade16
10-03-2014, 01:17 PM
TS% isn't **** when you have floppers like Harden getting freebie free throws.. Sorry, but Harden's TS would look bad without it.

We saw what happened when Harden was denied the ticky-tacky foul calls in the playoffs vs. Portland. His efficiency plummeted.

To me, being an elite offensive option is about more than efficiency because certain shots lend themselves more to efficiency (like FTs or 3PTers). It's also about versatility.

If you are the #1 option on your team and elite in only 1 thing, and the opposition manages to take that away, you have to be able to still contribute.

Harden simply could not contribute on offense when he was denied getting to the rim. LMA on the other hand, was able to eviserate Houston both in the paint posting up, or in the midrange. They simply could not take away everything he brings to the table. So I think versatility in ability needs to factor in somewhere.

Now does that automatically mean because he's a more versatile scorer than say Love or Griffin that he's better? Not necessarily because obviously their elite efficiency should not be overlooked.

I don't think LMA is the best big in the game today. But I feel like he gets unfairly criticized for his low efficiency as if he's done it his entire career. The 3 years previous to last season (when he first became the #1 option in POR) his TS% was 54.5%. Far from terrible. The biggest difference is he was taking around 17 shots a game. Last season he took 20 shots. If he could keep his shot total down to 17 a game his efficiency would be good, hopefully the Blazers make that adjustment.

InRoseWeTrust
10-03-2014, 02:48 PM
His efficiency isn't just "not great." It's straight up below average for a big man and definitely below average among other top 20-25 guys in the league. I think Aldridge is a top 10 big in the league and is a very good player, but if you think he's No. 1 overall, you're seriously misinformed. He's absolutely inferior offensively to guys like Griffin, Love and Dirk and absolutely inferior defensively to guys like Howard, Davis and Duncan, and I don't think he's good enough on the other end of the floor to make up the difference against those six guys.

Bravo to this post. Couldn't have laid it out any more clearly.

InRoseWeTrust
10-03-2014, 02:53 PM
TS% isn't **** when you have floppers like Harden getting freebie free throws.. Sorry, but Harden's TS would look bad without it.

Harden flopping has nothing to do with LMA's inability to get to the line regularly. Does Harden get there more often than he should? Yes, but more so because he shows the ball on his drives and for some reason people are stupid enough to reach on a routine basis.

The fact remains that the most efficient players combine a solid FG%, a 3 point stroke, and the ability to get to the line in some sort of combination. LMA's FG% is pretty mediocre for a big, he doesn't shoot the 3, and he's his FTA leaves a lot to be desired. He may be a good player, but he's not efficient.

aman_13
10-03-2014, 04:26 PM
Do you guys think Val can get into the top 15 or 20 by the end of next season?

InRoseWeTrust
10-03-2014, 07:03 PM
Maybe top 20, but he'd have to keep developing steadily.

LMA
Noah
Davis
Cousins
Duncan (retiring soon)
Griffin
M. Gasol
Ibaka
Love
Dirk
Bosh
Horford
Drummond
Al Jefferson
D12
Jordan
Millsap

Are all appreciably better than him right now (the above list isn't in any order).

Verbal Christ
10-03-2014, 08:48 PM
We saw what happened when Harden was denied the ticky-tacky foul calls in the playoffs vs. Portland. His efficiency plummeted.

To me, being an elite offensive option is about more than efficiency because certain shots lend themselves more to efficiency (like FTs or 3PTers). It's also about versatility.

If you are the #1 option on your team and elite in only 1 thing, and the opposition manages to take that away, you have to be able to still contribute.

Harden simply could not contribute on offense when he was denied getting to the rim. LMA on the other hand, was able to eviserate Houston both in the paint posting up, or in the midrange. They simply could not take away everything he brings to the table. So I think versatility in ability needs to factor in somewhere.

Now does that automatically mean because he's a more versatile scorer than say Love or Griffin that he's better? Not necessarily because obviously their elite efficiency should not be overlooked.


And yet Harden still managed to average 27 PPG, albeit in a Meloesque volume shooting mode. If you want to use a 6 game sample size and overlook the stupid efficiency Harden had during the regular season go right ahead. Im wondering how much of that POR/HOU series you really watched, because LMA was an awful matchup for the Rockets when you had young inexperienced players in Jones and Motiejunas assigned to try and slow him down. When Howard was on LMA those numbers didn't look as great. How is LMA that versatile anyways? He's a great midrange jump shooting 7 footer. Not that great a defender. Not that great a rebounder. Still a good player no doubt.

xbrackattackx
10-03-2014, 09:03 PM
Dwight
Boogie
Davis
Love
Gasol
Griffin
LMA
Noah
Bosh
Horford
Ibaka
Brook Lopez
Faried
Jefferson
Randolph
Drummond
Milsap
Robin Lopez
Lee
Duncan
Dirk
Vucevic
Pau
Bogut
West
Asik
Amare
KG

FlashBolt
10-03-2014, 09:31 PM
I can't be the only one who saw Harden quit after a turnover and also come up small in clutch time. Talk about someone who shies away from the big stage. He's still a great offensive player but I wouldn't say he's efficient. LaMarcus doesn't shoot threes but 40% of his shots come within 10-16 ft from the field.. When he shot 0-3 feet from the field, he converted on 70% of them. There is no doubt that if he took his game more to the post, his FG% would be higher. But again, I don't think Portland wants him to do that. His post game is pretty darn good. He's not your traditional big but he's been moving away from the post as years go by. He was a 50% shooter for much of his career. He is shooting outside the post more than ever. Should be play more towards the paint? Sure. But considering they made it to round 2 last year, I would think they are doing SOMETHING right.

InRoseWeTrust
10-03-2014, 10:38 PM
I can't be the only one who saw Harden quit after a turnover and also come up small in clutch time. Talk about someone who shies away from the big stage. He's still a great offensive player but I wouldn't say he's efficient. LaMarcus doesn't shoot threes but 40% of his shots come within 10-16 ft from the field.. When he shot 0-3 feet from the field, he converted on 70% of them. There is no doubt that if he took his game more to the post, his FG% would be higher. But again, I don't think Portland wants him to do that. His post game is pretty darn good. He's not your traditional big but he's been moving away from the post as years go by. He was a 50% shooter for much of his career. He is shooting outside the post more than ever. Should be play more towards the paint? Sure. But considering they made it to round 2 last year, I would think they are doing SOMETHING right.

Harden is one of the the most efficient offensive players in the game. I literally don't even know what to say.

DemarDerozan
10-04-2014, 02:04 AM
Maybe top 20, but he'd have to keep developing steadily.

LMA
Noah
Davis
Cousins
Duncan (retiring soon)
Griffin
M. Gasol
Ibaka
Love
Dirk
Bosh
Horford
Drummond
Al Jefferson
D12
Jordan
Millsap

Are all appreciably better than him right now (the above list isn't in any order).

Damn Bro we agree on something. Lol. Cheers.

R9.
10-04-2014, 05:06 AM
shaq, tim, jermain, yao, zhizhi, nene ...

mightybosstone
10-04-2014, 08:31 AM
Bravo to this post. Couldn't have laid it out any more clearly.
Thank you, sir. I do what I can.

Do you guys think Val can get into the top 15 or 20 by the end of next season?
Mmm... Anything's possible, but he's got a long way to go. Even when I was doing my honorable mentions for the top 20, I had at least 7-10 guys I would have ranked ahead of him. Hell, I don't even know if the guy is in the top 30 among bigs in the league right now. But he's definitely skilled and there's room for improvement, so we'll see if that's still the case in a year.

And yet Harden still managed to average 27 PPG, albeit in a Meloesque volume shooting mode. If you want to use a 6 game sample size and overlook the stupid efficiency Harden had during the regular season go right ahead. Im wondering how much of that POR/HOU series you really watched, because LMA was an awful matchup for the Rockets when you had young inexperienced players in Jones and Motiejunas assigned to try and slow him down. When Howard was on LMA those numbers didn't look as great. How is LMA that versatile anyways? He's a great midrange jump shooting 7 footer. Not that great a defender. Not that great a rebounder. Still a good player no doubt.
:nod:

But let's all stop talking about Harden. This thread has absolutely nothing to do with him or any other shooting guard in the league. If someone wants to make a point about scoring efficiency, use bigs as an example, not PSD's favorite whipping boy shooting guard.

valade16
10-04-2014, 10:46 AM
Mo
And yet Harden still managed to average 27 PPG, albeit in a Meloesque volume shooting mode. If you want to use a 6 game sample size and overlook the stupid efficiency Harden had during the regular season go right ahead. Im wondering how much of that POR/HOU series you really watched, because LMA was an awful matchup for the Rockets when you had young inexperienced players in Jones and Motiejunas assigned to try and slow him down. When Howard was on LMA those numbers didn't look as great. How is LMA that versatile anyways? He's a great midrange jump shooting 7 footer. Not that great a defender. Not that great a rebounder. Still a good player no doubt.

I'll leave the Harden stuff alone because this thread isn't about him. But LMA was a matchup nightmare because of his offensive versatility. The reason Jones couldn't guard LMA was because LMA just posted him up and dominated him. Then they tried Asik on him and LMA went out to the midrange and torched him.

So your point is to slow him down they had to put one of the best players in the NBA on him? When the biggest argument against a guy is "when Howard guards him" he's pretty damn good.

And to be clear, I'm not talking about overall versatility. I'm talking about offensive versatility. People seem to think LMA is ONLY a jump shooter and that's not true. He's a great post player, one of the best in the league. My point is, you can't just take away LMA's midrange game and he becomes useless. He can still contribute offensively. That's a hallmark of a good offensive player. They can contribute in a variety of ways.

Sly Guy
10-06-2014, 11:25 AM
Dwight is still the best big in the game.

I haven't agreed with this since he left orlando

WSU Tony
10-06-2014, 03:15 PM
Love is a top 5 player but he hardly makes your top 10 "bigs." Kind of funny...

FlashBolt
10-06-2014, 11:40 PM
Love is arguably the best rebounder, a great outlet passer, smart player, and can shoot threes. Name one PF who can do all that.