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View Full Version : Will Goran Dragic continue to be one of the most underrated guards?



mrblisterdundee
09-30-2014, 12:33 AM
I just read a thread about the top five players at each position, and only a few responses had Goran Dragic in the top five of shooting guards. Why is that, and is The Dragon (coolest NBA nickname candidate) going to continue being one of the most underrated guards the league?
Last season, he equaled Dwayne Wade's performance per game while playing 76 games. That's 22 more than Wade, who's four years older and dealing with more injuries.
Dragic shot more than 50 percent from the field, better than most not named Wade, and more than 40 percent from behind the arc, better than most not named Thompson. He distributed as much as James Harden while averaging fewer turnovers and playing better defense.
What will it take for The Dragon to get more attention? Does having a great point guard like Eric Bledsoe take away from Dragic, the best player on a playoff team? Does Phoenix need to make it to the playoffs?

mightybosstone
09-30-2014, 12:38 AM
I didn't rank him among the top five SGs, because I still consider Dragic a PG and ranked him fourth among all PG int he league. Regardless, I do get your point. However, I think he needs to prove it over a long period of time. I remember the end of this last season in Houston where he was a monster and showed flashes of greatness, but then he receded a ton that first year in Phoenix. With his first full season of domination under his belt and a likely huge paycheck coming next offseason, I think there's a very good chance he's going to repeat next year.

He won't be underrated for very long...

Redrum187
09-30-2014, 12:54 AM
I don't understand how he is underrated at all. He isn't a top 5 pg and people considering him top 5 pg already are really optimistic that this isn't an outlier year. I think he is in the top 10 pgs, but if anything he is rated spot on or slightly overrated until he proves he can do this year in and year out.

1.) Chris Paul
2.) Stephen Curry
3.) Russell Westbrook
4.) Tony Parker
5.) John Wall

abe_froman
09-30-2014, 01:07 AM
he will for 2 reasons
1.some still cling to him being a pg,even though the roster on paper have bledsoe,and now thomas,as the pg's for phx
2.he doesnt make a name for himself(due to not playing for a top team ,and not being an attention seeker)

but yeah,he should be a bigger deal than he is

mrblisterdundee
09-30-2014, 01:09 AM
I didn't rank him among the top five SGs, because I still consider Dragic a PG and ranked him fourth among all PG int he league. Regardless, I do get your point. However, I think he needs to prove it over a long period of time. I remember the end of this last season in Houston where he was a monster and showed flashes of greatness, but then he receded a ton that first year in Phoenix. With his first full season of domination under his belt and a likely huge paycheck coming next offseason, I think there's a very good chance he's going to repeat next year.

He won't be underrated for very long...

I know Phoenix has a hybrid guard system, but wouldn't Dragic be used as the shooting guard if playing with Bledsoe? I can see him being the primary point guard with Bledsoe hurt, but he's back now, and Phoenix has Isaiah Thomas. Dragic might even see some time at small forward this season. I am salivating at the thought of Thomas, Bledsoe and Dragic wreaking havoc on some front-heavy team.

dalton749
09-30-2014, 01:57 AM
For me, I look at his numbers as being slightly inflated by playing in an uptempo, transition style that benefits guard play, and won't work in the playoffs.
Confidence from making a few easy lay ups is huge.

It's a big reason why guys in the east shoot lower percentages, and a guy like harden is useless in the playoffs without his transition game
Plus they were supposed to suck so they got no coverage

Duncan = Donkey
09-30-2014, 03:29 AM
Yes.

Goose17
09-30-2014, 04:25 AM
Will he be playing SG or PG this season?

Due to depth, I would say he's clawing his way into being a top 5 PG, but in my opinion, after the top 3 the rest of the top 10 is just down to preference.

But if he plays as SG, he's the best SG in the league. Kobe and Wade are on their way out due to age and injuries. Harden only plays one side of the game, a side that Dragic imo actually plays just as well and he's simply a better offensive player than the likes of Beal, Thompson etc.

At the very least he's on par with Harden and DeRozan, although I will happily form an argument to say that he's better than both of those guys.

THE MTL
09-30-2014, 08:16 AM
I dont think he's underrated. He just isnt listed as a top 5 PG or SG because ppl dont know what he really is. But either way he did make an AllNba team last season so he ks getting the credit

IndyRealist
09-30-2014, 09:44 AM
Dragic is listed as playing 52% of his mins last year at PG, according to basketball reference, and 88%+ in the years prior. That may change this year, but he's still a point guard for now.

nycericanguy
09-30-2014, 10:46 AM
He was an MVP candidate and a top 3 PG last year behind Steph & CP3.

He was also a top 10 player last year and the only player in the NBA besides LBJ to average 20ppg & 6apg.

Also the only player in the NBA that averaged 20ppg or more while shooting 50% and 40% from 3.

then you add him taking a PHO team that was projected as a lottery team to 48 wins out west... he had an amazing year.

Thing is, it was one season, I'm interested to see if he can repeat.

jakub
09-30-2014, 10:56 AM
I don't understand how he is underrated at all. He isn't a top 5 pg and people considering him top 5 pg already are really optimistic that this isn't an outlier year. I think he is in the top 10 pgs, but if anything he is rated spot on or slightly overrated until he proves he can do this year in and year out.

1.) Chris Paul
2.) Stephen Curry
3.) Russell Westbrook
4.) Tony Parker
5.) John Wall

Amen. Guy is BEYOND overrated.

king4day
09-30-2014, 01:07 PM
Amen. Guy is BEYOND overrated.

I'd love to hear how Dragic is 'beyond overrated'. You don't need to believe he's top 5 in the league but he had a comparable season to some star guards. He was snubbed for an allstar spot last season and made 3rd team All-NBA.
With Bledsoe injured he carried a team of Green, Tucker, Frye, and Miles Plumlee (starting lineup). 3 castoffs and a guy returning from a year off due to a heart problem.

I don't care if people don't think he's a top 5 SG or PG but saying he's overrated means you (or anyone judging) hasn't seen him play in the circumstances he played in.

mrblisterdundee
09-30-2014, 10:14 PM
Dragic is listed as playing 52% of his mins last year at PG, according to basketball reference, and 88%+ in the years prior. That may change this year, but he's still a point guard for now.

It already changed last season. Basketball-Reference listed him as a shooting guard during 2013-14. Bledsoe's back, so he slots to shooting guard.

BallIsAll
09-30-2014, 11:01 PM
People need to stop overreacting these damn guards. Let's see if they put up the same numbers. Eric Bledsoe and goran dragic are not that good. Please you guys this is getting rediculous.

king4day
10-01-2014, 12:09 AM
People need to stop overreacting these damn guards. Let's see if they put up the same numbers. Eric Bledsoe and goran dragic are not that good. Please you guys this is getting rediculous.

Totally! It was Shavlik Randolph and Ish Smith who led the Suns to 48 wins last season.

BallIsAll
10-01-2014, 12:28 AM
Totally! It was Shavlik Randolph and Ish Smith who led the Suns to 48 wins last season.




Ty lawson and Arron afflalo led the nuggets to 56 wins. What's your point?

Duncan = Donkey
10-01-2014, 12:31 AM
Amen. Guy is BEYOND overrated.

I love to hear how he is beyond overated as well.

Duncan = Donkey
10-01-2014, 12:34 AM
Ty lawson and Arron afflalo led the nuggets to 56 wins. What's your point?

when did that happen?

BallIsAll
10-01-2014, 12:41 AM
when did that happen?



I'm sorry 50-32 and 38-28 the shortened season.

Lawson and iggy lead them to 56 wins

Duncan = Donkey
10-01-2014, 01:10 AM
I'm sorry 50-32 and 38-28 the shortened season.

Lawson and iggy lead them to 56 wins

Well the obvious difference is that those Nugget teams were not predicted to be the worst team in the league, they were expected to make the playoffs. They had proven quality players (Melo, Nene, Faried, Harrington, Gallo, Miller, McGee, Billups, JR Smith). Everyone and their dog was saying the Suns would be the worse team in the league.

beasted86
10-01-2014, 01:29 AM
He is overrated on PSD, not underrated.

I don't understand this current trend on PSD of fans propping up players that play little or no defense. Am I biased? Have I been living in a hole somewhere and this has been happening all along? Is this something newer with the introduction of so many foreign and international players that the standards of good defense have been lowered? What is this? This is sort of a secondary topic, and I don't mean to derail this thread, but seriously, I just don't get it, and its been going on for a while now, and applies to Dragic. I recall the days when I used to think HOF caliber guys like Magic, Bird, Barkley, or Reggie had bad defense. Now some of these same names look like DPOY candidates compared to the current "bad-defense-great-offense" types being propped up as "greats" in the game. I don't remember any prior era when so many of the supposed best players in the game were consistently in the lottery. Is this a result of advanced stats skewing judgement? Somebody please explain or start a new thread about this if its too off-topic.

Goose17
10-01-2014, 02:44 AM
He is overrated on PSD, not underrated.

I don't understand this current trend on PSD of fans propping up players that play little or no defense. Am I biased? Have I been living in a hole somewhere and this has been happening all along? Is this something newer with the introduction of so many foreign and international players that the standards of good defense have been lowered? What is this? This is sort of a secondary topic, and I don't mean to derail this thread, but seriously, I just don't get it, and its been going on for a while now, and applies to Dragic. I recall the days when I used to think HOF caliber guys like Magic, Bird, Barkley, or Reggie had bad defense. Now some of these same names look like DPOY candidates compared to the current "bad-defense-great-offense" types being propped up as "greats" in the game. I don't remember any prior era when so many of the supposed best players in the game were consistently in the lottery. Is this a result of advanced stats skewing judgement? Somebody please explain or start a new thread about this if its too off-topic.

Except Dragic is a decent defender. This isn't Harden we're talking about.

And this isn't a new thing. Plenty of great players have been weak defensively.

IndyRealist
10-01-2014, 10:14 AM
It already changed last season. Basketball-Reference listed him as a shooting guard during 2013-14. Bledsoe's back, so he slots to shooting guard.

For starting position, yes. But he played the majority of his minutes as the PG, according to the same site.

Corey
10-01-2014, 01:09 PM
He's white, not very athletic, plays in a small market, hasn't been showcased in the playoffs, and isn't very marketable. He'll be underrated for all of his career, most likely. Unfortunate truths to the league.

I love him, though. He's turned into a very, very good player. The people claiming he's overrated haven't watched very much of him.

Oefarmy2005
10-01-2014, 01:21 PM
He was an MVP candidate and a top 3 PG last year behind Steph & CP3.

He was also a top 10 player last year and the only player in the NBA besides LBJ to average 20ppg & 6apg.

Also the only player in the NBA that averaged 20ppg or more while shooting 50% and 40% from 3.

then you add him taking a PHO team that was projected as a lottery team to 48 wins out west... he had an amazing year.

Thing is, it was one season, I'm interested to see if he can repeat.

That is a fine opinion, but if I was starting a team, I would take Westbrook, Irving, Wall, Llilard and a semi-healthy Rose over him. For me, he is on the same page as Lowry, Conely or Lawson type of player, so yes somewhere in the top 10 but close to the tail end of it.

Redrum187
10-01-2014, 02:19 PM
He's white, not very athletic, plays in a small market, hasn't been showcased in the playoffs, and isn't very marketable. He'll be underrated for all of his career, most likely. Unfortunate truths to the league.

I love him, though. He's turned into a very, very good player. The people claiming he's overrated haven't watched very much of him.

1.) I doubt you know who everyone who has watched him or not watched him.
2.) Because you disagree he's not overrated, they must be ignorant of his skillset?
3.) NO ONE has seen very much of him! He's played one great season (numbers-wise I'd put him in the top 10 easily). Until we see this consistently done for more than a season, is it really impossible to see why some people would think he's overrated when others are calling him a top 5 PG? It's one thing to disagree, it's another to not even be able to validate any sort of reasoning with someone's disagreement with you.

I think it's fans that push pre-maturely that make players overrated.

Tony_Starks
10-01-2014, 02:37 PM
The problem is the PG position has become so watered down and fans are so desperate that they are propping up these second tier players like they're superstars.

If back in the days of real superstar PGs if you would've brought up the Dragic, Lowry, Jeff Teagues of the world you would've got laughed out of town....

beasted86
10-01-2014, 03:13 PM
Except Dragic is a decent defender. This isn't Harden we're talking about.

And this isn't a new thing. Plenty of great players have been weak defensively.

Explain your standards of decent defense, because I think he is a poor defender. If I was a fan of the Suns and he was defending any above average offensive PG to end the game I would be scared shitless and yelling at the coach for even having him in the game possibly.

As my own barometer for defense using five scales, I think Westbrook and Conley are top tier, Paul and Lowry are good, Parker and Rose average, Dragic and Curry poor, Lin and Calderon terrible. The sad part is this whole scale is knocked down a tier intrinsically because I feel there isn't one lockdown guard in the league comparable to the standards set in the 90s of the Dumars, Payton, Kidd types.

Goose17
10-01-2014, 03:57 PM
I don't see how you can have Westbrook above Lowry or Paul never mind rated as top tier.

Westbrook gambles a lot on defense, shoots the gap. Hes lucky Ibaka is there to clean up his mistakes.

Westbrook is very overrated defensively.

FYI. I put Dragic on the same level defensively as Parker. Decent. Average. Competent.

We better just end the conversation here. I can tell we're not going to agree on this.

nycericanguy
10-01-2014, 03:58 PM
That is a fine opinion, but if I was starting a team, I would take Westbrook, Irving, Wall, Llilard and a semi-healthy Rose over him. For me, he is on the same page as Lowry, Conely or Lawson type of player, so yes somewhere in the top 10 but close to the tail end of it.

I would take some of those guys too because they are younger and some have played at a high level for several years.

But if we're talking LAST YEAR, Dragic was better than anyone not named CP3 or Curry.

As the previous poster said, he just doesn't have the aura of a big star though.

White guy, not very flashy, from a country not very well represented in NBA, small market...etc...

Last season he blows away everyone else you mentioned though...

Like I said, who knows if he can repeat his performance... but no one can say he wasn't a top 5 PG last year at the very least.

Oefarmy2005
10-01-2014, 08:59 PM
I would take some of those guys too because they are younger and some have played at a high level for several years.

But if we're talking LAST YEAR, Dragic was better than anyone not named CP3 or Curry.

As the previous poster said, he just doesn't have the aura of a big star though.

White guy, not very flashy, from a country not very well represented in NBA, small market...etc...

Last season he blows away everyone else you mentioned though...

Like I said, who knows if he can repeat his performance... but no one can say he wasn't a top 5 PG last year at the very least.

He was the third best PG by what rating exactly? PER? Scoring? What exactly? By the way I forgot Parker who is also a better player than Dragic in my opinion. Westbrook was top 3 by most measurable advanced stats, including PER by a whole 3 points ahead of Dragic(Westbrook was actually ahead of Curry in PER). Lowry was ahead of Dragic in win shares. By most stats I can find, Paul,Westbrook and Curry are the clear top 3, by quite a margin. Dragic, Lowry, Llilar, Conely, Wall and Irving are all about on par as far as most basic/advanced stats go. I have no idea what you are basing your opinion on. The WARP discrepancy is even larger.

Corey
10-01-2014, 10:53 PM
The problem is the PG position has become so watered down and fans are so desperate that they are propping up these second tier players like they're superstars.

If back in the days of real superstar PGs if you would've brought up the Dragic, Lowry, Jeff Teagues of the world you would've got laughed out of town....

I wouldn't call PG watered down at all. I think it's the deepest position in the league talent wise right now.

mrblisterdundee
10-02-2014, 01:07 AM
The problem is the PG position has become so watered down and fans are so desperate that they are propping up these second tier players like they're superstars.

If back in the days of real superstar PGs if you would've brought up the Dragic, Lowry, Jeff Teagues of the world you would've got laughed out of town....

Nobody's been talking about him as a superstar, although some thought he should have been an all-star last season.

king4day
10-02-2014, 09:19 AM
People can say what they want. He carried the Suns into contention when it counted most (some of that time on a bum ankle). It's one thing to put up empty stats for a losing team but the Suns finished with 48 wins.

He helped give Slovenia their best representation in the tourney as well as well.

And it most certainly is important for someone who judges a player, saying they're overrated, to have watched a good majority of the games he's played.
If I see 2 games a player like Lowry (for example) is in and he played poorly, I'm not going to say he's overrated because I don't have enough to go on.

Besides, a player isn't going to get voted to an all-nba team if the voters think he wasn't worthy.

nycericanguy
10-02-2014, 02:41 PM
He was the third best PG by what rating exactly? PER? Scoring? What exactly? By the way I forgot Parker who is also a better player than Dragic in my opinion. Westbrook was top 3 by most measurable advanced stats, including PER by a whole 3 points ahead of Dragic(Westbrook was actually ahead of Curry in PER). Lowry was ahead of Dragic in win shares. By most stats I can find, Paul,Westbrook and Curry are the clear top 3, by quite a margin. Dragic, Lowry, Llilar, Conely, Wall and Irving are all about on par as far as most basic/advanced stats go. I have no idea what you are basing your opinion on. The WARP discrepancy is even larger.

There's no one end all be all stat...

Yea WB had a higher PER, he also shot 44% and 31% from 3... compared to Dragics 51 & 41...

win shares means nothing to me in the NBA... Dragic was a better player than Lowry last year

Do you ever look at a situation or just look for a stat? Does it mean nothing that Dragic took a team full of outcasts to 48 wins out west when most had as one of the worst in the league?

if you want to rank him #4 or 5 last year fine... you can make arguments either way, but some people don't even have him top 10 pg's last year and that's just silly.

tr3ymill3r
10-02-2014, 03:20 PM
Really good player, but until he gets back to the playoffs and has more than 1 good game while there people will continue to overlook him.

jakub
10-03-2014, 01:49 PM
I'd love to hear how Dragic is 'beyond overrated'. You don't need to believe he's top 5 in the league but he had a comparable season to some star guards. He was snubbed for an allstar spot last season and made 3rd team All-NBA.
With Bledsoe injured he carried a team of Green, Tucker, Frye, and Miles Plumlee (starting lineup). 3 castoffs and a guy returning from a year off due to a heart problem.

I don't care if people don't think he's a top 5 SG or PG but saying he's overrated means you (or anyone judging) hasn't seen him play in the circumstances he played in.

Dragic has ONE good season, just ONE. Now that I make that clear, point guards out there have had multiple good seasons, but yet people tend to only care about last season. I think that is the wrong way to evaluate players, because they can be one hit wonders, after all, Dragic just had ONE good season. It's not like he is a first year or second year player either. He's been in the league for six years, and he is 28. Let's not act like the Suns had zero talent though. The Suns only had one of the best benches in the entire league, and last I checked, unless you're Lebron James, you cannot carry a team by yourself in the NBA far. Basketball is a team game, and Dragic has a good team. So let's not act like he had ZERO help. Dragic has a great season last season, but I'd like to see him repeat before he I have him in my top five rankings. Right now he is hovering around the 8-11 mark.

king4day
10-03-2014, 04:41 PM
Dragic has ONE good season, just ONE. Now that I make that clear, point guards out there have had multiple good seasons, but yet people tend to only care about last season. I think that is the wrong way to evaluate players, because they can be one hit wonders, after all, Dragic just had ONE good season. It's not like he is a first year or second year player either. He's been in the league for six years, and he is 28. Let's not act like the Suns had zero talent though. The Suns only had one of the best benches in the entire league, and last I checked, unless you're Lebron James, you cannot carry a team by yourself in the NBA far. Basketball is a team game, and Dragic has a good team. So let's not act like he had ZERO help. Dragic has a great season last season, but I'd like to see him repeat before he I have him in my top five rankings. Right now he is hovering around the 8-11 mark.

He's improved steadily over the years. You're right though, he has to continue to prove he can do this consistently.
His numbers will almost certainly drop now that Bledsoe is back healthy and he'll get less minutes with Thomas coming aboard too. I don't believe that'll impact his importance to the team though.

Jamiecballer
10-03-2014, 05:39 PM
People can say what they want. He carried the Suns into contention when it counted most (some of that time on a bum ankle). It's one thing to put up empty stats for a losing team but the Suns finished with 48 wins.

He helped give Slovenia their best representation in the tourney as well as well.

And it most certainly is important for someone who judges a player, saying they're overrated, to have watched a good majority of the games he's played.
If I see 2 games a player like Lowry (for example) is in and he played poorly, I'm not going to say he's overrated because I don't have enough to go on.

Besides, a player isn't going to get voted to an all-nba team if the voters think he wasn't worthy.
Agree with everything except the part about watching a player lot. In my book that is more likely to lead to a biased view. Most of the time

Goose17
10-03-2014, 05:55 PM
Agree with everything except the part about watching a player lot. In my book that is more likely to lead to a biased view. Most of the time

Surely the more you watch the more you learn about them. It's just collecting all the information possible to make a more informed decision about them.

Jamiecballer
10-03-2014, 08:16 PM
Surely the more you watch the more you learn about them. It's just collecting all the information possible to make a more informed decision about them.
Yes but its a very rare person who can really maintain objectivity about the players of the team they follow.

A well informed basketball fan who doesn't follow the particular players team and knows their way around an advanced stat sheet is a much better source IMO.

Goose17
10-04-2014, 04:01 AM
Yes but its a very rare person who can really maintain objectivity about the players of the team they follow.

A well informed basketball fan who doesn't follow the particular players team and knows their way around an advanced stat sheet is a much better source IMO.

The first part, if it's a player on the team you support then you're more likely to be biased not because you watch them play a lot but because they're playing for your favourite team.

But watching other players a lot (not on your favourite team) doesn't make you biased imo.

Second part; how can you be a well informed basketball fan when you don't know what team the player plays for? Lol. And there's more to basketball than advanced stats. You need to know the game and be watching the player as well as keeping track of the stats to make a well informed opinion on them. Either one without the other means you're basing your decision on less information than what is available, which is just a bad thing to do.