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DemarDerozan
09-27-2014, 03:34 AM
PG has become the most important single position in the league.
Rank your top 20 PGs. Homerism is looked down upon...
But will likely play a factor anyhow...
Here's mine:

CP3 (top five all time PG and in his prime)
Steph Curry (possible best shooter of all time and he can pass)
Tony Parker (chips and continuity... Knows how to win and step up)
Russell Westbrook (beast on both ends)
Goran Dragic (Best player on his team as a combo guard and true PG in the Wild West)
John Wall (speed and leadership)
Kyle Lowry
Damian Lilliard (second coming of Chauncey... But better.)
Ty Lawson
DWill ( good true PG)
Mike Conley (efficient)
Jrue Holiday
DRose (if he reaches 60% of past self)
Rajon Rondo (if he reaches 80% of past self)
Jeff Teague (has really stepped up)
Isaiah Thomas (scorer... Solid overall player)
Kyrie Irving (natural talent, but had locker room issues last season)
MCW (ROY has a lot to prove)
Brandon Jennings (decent stats... Learning how to distribute)
Kemba Walker (lots of potential)

IndyRealist
09-27-2014, 09:01 AM
You left out Ty Lawson.

Chris Paul
Steph Curry
Goran Dragic
Kyle Lowry
Ty Lawson
Russell Westbrook
Tony Parker
Mike Conley
Jose Calderon
John Wall
Darren Collison
George Hill
Ricky Rubio
Damian Lillard
Patty Mills
Deron Williams
Andre Miller
Isaiah Thomas
Jrue Holiday
Rajon Rondo

After Conley you start getting into flawed players with significant holes in their game. While they could compensate for them, I'm going on how they performed in the last two years, and how I think they will perform next year.

prodigy
09-27-2014, 09:15 AM
Didn't we already have a topic like this lol. Why do i have a feeling you made this just to bash kyrie Irving?

Arch Stanton
09-27-2014, 09:31 AM
Didn't we already have a topic like this lol. Why do i have a feeling you made this just to bash kyrie Irving?

Yep... Kyrie ranked 16th :facepalm:

IndyRealist
09-27-2014, 09:33 AM
Didn't we already have a topic like this lol. Why do i have a feeling you made this just to bash kyrie Irving?


Sensitive much? The most recent point guard thread I've seen is about Kemba Walker.

Having said that, I left him off my list. Probably goes somewhere around Lillard on mine.

Arch Stanton
09-27-2014, 09:35 AM
You left out Ty Lawson.

Chris Paul
Steph Curry
Goran Dragic
Kyle Lowry
Ty Lawson
Russell Westbrook
Tony Parker
Mike Conley
Jose Calderon
John Wall
Darren Collison
George Hill
Ricky Rubio
Damian Lillard
Patty Mills
Deron Williams
Andre Miller
Isaiah Thomas
Jrue Holiday
Rajon Rondo

After Conley you start getting into flawed players with significant holes in their game. While they could compensate for them, I'm going on how they performed in the last two years, and how I think they will perform next year.

You left out Kyrie Irving!!!!

Arch Stanton
09-27-2014, 09:40 AM
My list starts and ends with George Hill :ballspinning:

IndyRealist
09-27-2014, 09:56 AM
You left out Kyrie Irving!!!!

It's a lot of names to remember in the offseason ;)

So much butthurt in this thread already....

Heatcheck
09-27-2014, 10:43 AM
I think ive shown im no Kyrie fan but putting Darren Collison, Isaiah Thomas, Ricky Rubio, George Hill ahead of him shows you have some bias against him.

The fact you have George hill ahead of Damian Lillard, and a backup like patty mills ahead of Rondo and Williams makes the whole list suspect.

phantasyyy
09-27-2014, 11:13 AM
1. Chris Paul - no explanation needed
2. Russell Westbrook - one of the few true beasts on both ends of the floor
3. Steph Curry - Dead eye trigger w/ passing ability - if he improves his D he will soon supplant CP3
4. Tony Parker - Cant deny his ability to lead his team and step up in the clutch, may have played less minutes but still effective in running his team
5. Kyle Lowry - Absolute bull dog on the court that will play both sides of the floor w/ and improved 3pt shot.


6. Damian Lilliard - Dude its just a flat out beast with an extreme amount of confidence helping to lead a playoff team
7. Mike Conley - severely underrated and plays both ends of the floor, consistently improving each season
8. Goran Dragic - would rank him higher, its just he shares pg duties with Bledsoe and I think of him more as SG
9. John Wall - Second coming of westbrook on both sides? Plays high energy defense, just lacking shot and has high number turnovers
10 . Kyrie Irving - idk.. I just don't like him LOL I think hes overated.. but hes obviously talented on the offensive end, I personally just wouldn't put him in the same class as Curry/Lillard even though they aren't good defenders either.

11. Derrick Rose - Obviously he'd be rated higher, #4-5 if he comes back even 80% of his old self, his stats were terrible in FIBA, but his bounce was there..
12. Rajon Rondo - He'd also be rated higher but due to his injuries don't know where he'll land next season on top of the broken hand he just suffered
13. Ty Lawson - lightning quick with a deadly 3pt shot, just too diminutive imo to be a good defender
14. Jeff Teague - Improved tremendously with the injuries and departures of Horford and Johnson, he's gonna surprise a lot of people this year once again
15. Jrue Holiday - Injuries hampered his first season with NOH, but I personally think that eastern all star birth was somewhat fluke, still as solid pg -

16. Kemba Walker - solid player, but a sg stuck in a pg body, still good enough to help lead his team to a playoff birth, but I think with the addition of Stephenson we will finally be able to see a more efficient walker
17. Deron Williams - Oh how the mighty have fallen, from #2 PG 3-4 years ago all the way down to #17 on my list.. he is "healthy" so maybe we'll see some type of resurgence? Could be even lower if he continues his downward spiral
18. Ricky Rubio - his passing and defense are his calling, but in some forums his D seems to be overrated? He is absolutely not an offensive threat though..
19. MCW - ROY.. stats product of a bad team? He'll have time to improve though with the team once again fully his to experiment his skills with
20. Jennings/George Hill/Isaiah Thomas in that order

HandsOnTheWheel
09-27-2014, 11:23 AM
Kyrie is easily in the top three.

I Rock Shaqs
09-27-2014, 11:48 AM
Kyrie is easily in the top three.

Nope.
Westbrook
CP3
Parker

Are all way better.

tredigs
09-27-2014, 11:57 AM
Combo of the past ~2 years or so and a bit looking ahead...

1: CP3
2: Curry
3: Westbrook
4: Parker

5: Dragic
6: Ty Lawson
7: Conley
8: Lowrey
9: Wall
10: Lillard
11: Irving
12: I. Thomas

13: George Hill
14: Rondo
15: Kemba
16: Rubio
17: Jrue Holiday
18: Teague
19: Calderon
20: Trey Burke

BallIsAll
09-27-2014, 12:04 PM
You guys do know lawson was tied for second in assists last year right? Also was near the top in steals and points.

1. Chris Paul
2. Stephen curry
3. Tony Parker
4. Kyrie Irving
5. Ty Lawson

6. Damien lillard
7. Kyle Lowry
8. Goran dragic
9. Eric Bledsoe
10. Deron Williams



Left out Russell Westbrook by mistake I think he's 3rd


Only doing 10 because 20 is too much.

DemarDerozan
09-27-2014, 12:09 PM
You left out Ty Lawson.

Fixed

dalton749
09-27-2014, 02:34 PM
Paul
Curry
Westbrook
Parker

Lowry
Wall
Dragic
Lillard
Irving
Rose
Conley
Bledsoe
Lawson
Rondo
Teague

Thomas
Williams
Holiday
Walker
MCW

flea
09-27-2014, 02:45 PM
Paul
Curry
Westbrook
Conley
Parker
Lowry
Dragon
Lawson
Wall
Lillard
Irving
Teague
Holiday
Rubio
Bledsoe
Rose
Hill
Walker
Williams
Calderon

prodigy
09-27-2014, 02:56 PM
You left out Ty Lawson.

Chris Paul
Steph Curry
Goran Dragic
Kyle Lowry
Ty Lawson
Russell Westbrook
Tony Parker
Mike Conley
Jose Calderon
John Wall
Darren Collison
George Hill
Ricky Rubio
Damian Lillard
Patty Mills
Deron Williams
Andre Miller
Isaiah Thomas
Jrue Holiday
Rajon Rondo

After Conley you start getting into flawed players with significant holes in their game. While they could compensate for them, I'm going on how they performed in the last two years, and how I think they will perform next year.


I'm going to pretend you were testing out ur opening line at tonights comedy club. You can't be that insane... I'm trying to keep this clean lol

dalton749
09-27-2014, 04:12 PM
Calderon belongs nowhere near this list guys. He's a pylon on defence and pounds the ball into the ground all game. He's a great shooter but your not winning with him handling point guard duties.

Ty22Mitchell
09-27-2014, 06:05 PM
PG has become the most important single position in the league.
Rank your top 20 PGs. Homerism is looked down upon...
But will likely play a factor anyhow...
Here's mine:

CP3 (top five all time PG and in his prime)
Steph Curry (possible best shooter of all time and he can pass)
Tony Parker (chips and continuity... Knows how to win and step up)
Russell Westbrook (beast on both ends)
Goran Dragic (Best player on his team as a combo guard and true PG in the Wild West)
John Wall (speed and leadership)
Kyle Lowry
Damian Lilliard (second coming of Chauncey... But better.)
Ty Lawson
DWill ( good true PG)
Mike Conley (efficient)
Jrue Holiday
DRose (if he reaches 60% of past self)
Rajon Rondo (if he reaches 80% of past self)
Jeff Teague (has really stepped up)
Isaiah Thomas (scorer... Solid overall player)
Kyrie Irving (natural talent, but had locker room issues last season)
MCW (ROY has a lot to prove)
Brandon Jennings (decent stats... Learning how to distribute)
Kemba Walker (lots of potential)



Chris Paul is top 5 all time? Not to hijack the thread but who are your top 5 point guards all time?

Ty22Mitchell
09-27-2014, 06:05 PM
Paul
Curry
Westbrook
Parker

Lowry
Wall
Dragic
Lillard
Irving
Rose
Conley
Bledsoe
Lawson
Rondo
Teague

Thomas
Williams
Holiday
Walker
MCW


x2

Seizabmc
09-27-2014, 06:50 PM
I always thought that cp3 was the best pg.

But after watching tony Parker in the finals the last two seasons,

I truly believe that he is the best pg in the league.

And as the years go by,
I'm starting to see that cp3 really isn't all that.

Never really won much in the post season.
And lately it seems like he always injured.

So I'm not so sure about him any more.

There's so many great PGs in the nba today,
So it's tuff to rank them .
But I'll try,

Tony Parker
Cp3
Rajon rondo when healthy
Rose when healthy
I think John wall and d lilard are tied for 5th. But will both soon be climbing the ranks.
Mike Conley is very under rated .
Kyrie Irving
Kyle lowery
Kemba walker

But depending on how the season goes,
This list can switch around real quick.

Seizabmc
09-27-2014, 06:51 PM
Oh yeah and curry as well is up there.
And I don't really consider Westbrook a pg, he's more of a Sg.

DemarDerozan
09-27-2014, 06:52 PM
Chris Paul is top 5 all time? Not to hijack the thread but who are your top 5 point guards all time?

John Stockton
Magic Johnson
Isiah Thomas
Oscar Robertson
Chris Paul

mightybosstone
09-28-2014, 09:58 AM
Without very much research...

1. Chris Paul
2. Stephen Curry
3. Russell Westbrook
4. Goran Dragic
5. Tony Parker
6. Kyle Lowry
7. Mike Conley
8. John Wall
9. Kyrie Irving
10. Damian Lillard
11. Ty Lawson
12. Eric Bledsoe
13. Deron Williams
14. Jeff Teague
15. Derrick Rose
16. Jrue Holiday
17. Isaiah Thomas
18. Rajon Rondo
19. Jose Calderon
20. Kemba Walker

Edit: I really, really wanted to put Beverley in the top 20, but after some careful consideration, I just couldn't justify it. I do think there's a chance he cracks that list this season, though. If he stays healthy, I could feasibly see him as a relatively efficient 14/4/4 guy who provides elite defense at either guard position.

Edit 2: I totally forgot Rose.

FlashBolt
09-28-2014, 10:04 AM
CP3 is statistically the best PG to ever play the game.

D-Leethal
09-28-2014, 12:53 PM
You left out Ty Lawson.

Chris Paul
Steph Curry
Goran Dragic
Kyle Lowry
Ty Lawson
Russell Westbrook
Tony Parker
Mike Conley
Jose Calderon
John Wall
Darren Collison
George Hill
Ricky Rubio
Damian Lillard
Patty Mills
Deron Williams
Andre Miller
Isaiah Thomas
Jrue Holiday
Rajon Rondo

After Conley you start getting into flawed players with significant holes in their game. While they could compensate for them, I'm going on how they performed in the last two years, and how I think they will perform next year.

wtf

Ty22Mitchell
09-28-2014, 01:07 PM
John Stockton
Magic Johnson
Isiah Thomas
Oscar Robertson
Chris Paul


What's the rationale for putting him above guys like Nash and Kidd? Are your rankings based on a person's peak then? You don't feel like his lack of postseason success affects his legacy at all?

phantasyyy
09-28-2014, 01:28 PM
What's the rationale for putting him above guys like Nash and Kidd? Are your rankings based on a person's peak then? You don't feel like his lack of postseason success affects his legacy at all?

Rationale over nash is defense.. but Kidd I'm not too sure

I find it funny how Melo gets discredited so badly for not taking his team further in the postseason yet, CP3 hasn't had any sort of success either.. at least melo made a conference finals.. which isn't saying much but still they both have had bad playoff success yet paul gets a bypass everytime..

InRoseWeTrust
09-28-2014, 02:12 PM
Right now it's probably a list of something like

CP3
Curry
Westbrook
Dragic
Lowry
Parker
Lillard
Kyrie
Conley

and then it starts to get really, really debatable. I'm leaving off Rose until I get to watch him play 20-25 games in a Bulls jersey.

Goose17
09-28-2014, 02:38 PM
I can't help but feel Jrue is being overlooked a little here.

DemarDerozan
09-28-2014, 03:51 PM
What's the rationale for putting him above guys like Nash and Kidd? Are your rankings based on a person's peak then? You don't feel like his lack of postseason success affects his legacy at all?

Nash always had a PG friendly system and I think he is slightly overrated. His two MVPs are impressive... But were more based on popularity than dominance.
CP3 is the better two way PG and would probably rank top ten in defense and offense all time for PGs. Kidd is closer than Nash but never put up the offensive numbers that CP3 has. CP3 is the most complete PG and has the best stats of any PG from the past 15 years.

Goose17
09-28-2014, 03:59 PM
Nash always had a PG friendly system and I think he is slightly overrated. His two MVPs are impressive... But were more based on popularity than dominance.
CP3 is the better two way PG and would probably rank top ten in defense and offense all time for PGs. Kidd is closer than Nash but never put up the offensive numbers that CP3 has. CP3 is the most complete PG and has the best stats of any PG from the past 15 years.

Magic, Stockton, Big O, Isiah Thomas, Nash, Hardaway (homer vote?) and a prime Kidd would still be above him imo.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?873787-All-Time-Point-Guards-Where-do-you-rank-CP3

As was discussed here^

Ty22Mitchell
09-28-2014, 06:02 PM
Magic, Stockton, Big O, Isiah Thomas, Nash, Hardaway (homer vote?) and a prime Kidd would still be above him imo.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?873787-All-Time-Point-Guards-Where-do-you-rank-CP3

As was discussed here^


Do I have to read all eleven pages or can I skip to the part where I say that you're wrong? Lol. (just kidding of course).

In all honesty I am 24 and never got to see prime Hardaway in context. Is there a current comparison to his game?

IndyRealist
09-28-2014, 06:45 PM
I'm going to pretend you were testing out ur opening line at tonights comedy club. You can't be that insane... I'm trying to keep this clean lol

We've already established that you and I don't see eye to eye on anything, so I fail to understand why you're surprised.

Jamiecballer
09-28-2014, 06:47 PM
Magic, Stockton, Big O, Isiah Thomas, Nash, Hardaway (homer vote?) and a prime Kidd would still be above him imo.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?873787-All-Time-Point-Guards-Where-do-you-rank-CP3

As was discussed here^
You didn't really have to ask whether that was a homer vote now did you

prodigy
09-28-2014, 09:35 PM
I'm going to pretend you were testing out ur opening line at tonights comedy club. You can't be that insane... I'm trying to keep this clean lol

We've already established that you and I don't see eye to eye on anything, so I fail to understand why you're surprised.

You have Irving out of ur top 20... im just concerned for you. I get u hate him and cavs for whatever reason. But u gotta be real if u want respect. If u were a gm you know dang well u take irving prob over at least 8-9 of those guys. Just a fact.

IndyRealist
09-28-2014, 10:45 PM
You have Irving out of ur top 20... im just concerned for you. I get u hate him and cavs for whatever reason. But u gotta be real if u want respect. If u were a gm you know dang well u take irving prob over at least 8-9 of those guys. Just a fact.

If you skip down a couple of posts from my list, you'll see that I mention that I left Irving off on accident.

prodigy
09-28-2014, 11:23 PM
You have Irving out of ur top 20... im just concerned for you. I get u hate him and cavs for whatever reason. But u gotta be real if u want respect. If u were a gm you know dang well u take irving prob over at least 8-9 of those guys. Just a fact.

If you skip down a couple of posts from my list, you'll see that I mention that I left Irving off on accident.

We both know you didn't... im glad you came around though. Irving def needs to get better in a lot of areas. But man he's also pretty darn good.

*Silver&Black*
09-28-2014, 11:57 PM
You left out Ty Lawson.

Chris Paul
Steph Curry
Goran Dragic
Kyle Lowry
Ty Lawson
Russell Westbrook
Tony Parker
Mike Conley
Jose Calderon
John Wall
Darren Collison
George Hill
Ricky Rubio
Damian Lillard
Patty Mills
Deron Williams
Andre Miller
Isaiah Thomas
Jrue Holiday
Rajon Rondo

After Conley you start getting into flawed players with significant holes in their game. While they could compensate for them, I'm going on how they performed in the last two years, and how I think they will perform next year.

Jeff Teague is better than half of those guys you listed.

BoSox47
09-28-2014, 11:57 PM
Paul
Curry
Westbrook
Parker

Lowry
Wall
Dragic
Lillard
Irving
Rose
Conley
Bledsoe
Lawson
Rondo
Teague

Thomas
Williams
Holiday
Walker
MCW


I agree with this except I would drop Teague down into the bottom tier.

Chronz
09-29-2014, 12:01 AM
Rationale over nash is defense.. but Kidd I'm not too sure

I find it funny how Melo gets discredited so badly for not taking his team further in the postseason yet, CP3 hasn't had any sort of success either.. at least melo made a conference finals.. which isn't saying much but still they both have had bad playoff success yet paul gets a bypass everytime..

No
Melo gets discredited for his mediocre performances over the years when compared with CP3

InRoseWeTrust
09-29-2014, 12:44 AM
CP3 ...would probably rank top ten in defense all time for PGs.

This is out of control wrong. Like, not even close.

IndyRealist
09-29-2014, 09:12 AM
Jeff Teague is better than half of those guys you listed.

Yup. I forgot teague.

JustinTime
09-29-2014, 09:35 AM
Why is Cp3 constantly given Jordan treatment at the PG when he hasn't accomplished *****.

Goose17
09-29-2014, 10:36 AM
You didn't really have to ask whether that was a homer vote now did you

LOL I honestly don't know anymore, it doesn't seem like that big of a stretch to me. Am I really reaching that much?

Chronz
09-29-2014, 10:47 AM
This is out of control wrong. Like, not even close.

Ur prolly right, but the way you say this leads me to believe you have a top10 list handy. May I see it?


Why is Cp3 constantly given Jordan treatment at the PG when he hasn't accomplished *****.
Exaggerations aside, for similar reason MJ got the MJ treatment before accomplishing ****, they were that damn good. Its obvious for most of us just by watching them play, then when you break down the team impact and individual production, it becomes even more glaring.

JustinTime
09-29-2014, 01:07 PM
Ur prolly right, but the way you say this leads me to believe you have a top10 list handy. May I see it?


Exaggerations aside, for similar reason MJ got the MJ treatment before accomplishing ****, they were that damn good. Its obvious for most of us just by watching them play, then when you break down the team impact and individual production, it becomes even more glaring.

The Clippers are a damn good team, If he's so good a team like that should be winning a few championships or at least making the finals.

2-ONE-5
09-29-2014, 01:21 PM
You left out Ty Lawson.

Chris Paul
Steph Curry
Goran Dragic
Kyle Lowry
Ty Lawson
Russell Westbrook
Tony Parker
Mike Conley
Jose Calderon
John Wall
Darren Collison
George Hill
Ricky Rubio
Damian Lillard
Patty Mills
Deron Williams
Andre Miller
Isaiah Thomas
Jrue Holiday
Rajon Rondo

After Conley you start getting into flawed players with significant holes in their game. While they could compensate for them, I'm going on how they performed in the last two years, and how I think they will perform next year.

this is by far the worst PG rankings i have ever seen posted. amazing

IndyRealist
09-29-2014, 01:53 PM
this is by far the worst PG rankings i have ever seen posted. amazing
At least I stand by my opinion and am not afraid of criticism. Aside from teague and irving who I forgot, I have statistical and anecdotal evidence for my opinions. Unlike some, I'm not a jock-riding fan who thinks all of my team's guys are top 10, and I don't worship at the altar of Sportscenter.

The least valid opinion is when someone copies and pastes someone else's opinion. There's absolutely no thought in it at all, just mindless conformity.

2-ONE-5
09-29-2014, 04:20 PM
hahaah dude please justify the rankings for Hill, collison, Calderon, Miller, and Mills bcuz only calderson is top 20 and its prob at #20 at best while the rest are simply laughable. when you claim to forgot two guys like Teague and Irviing it really shows how little you know

Oefarmy2005
09-29-2014, 04:50 PM
1) CP3
2) Curry
3) Westbrook
4) Parker
5) Irving
6) Llilard
7) Rose
8) Conely
9) Wall
10) Lowry
11) Dragic
12) Lawson
13) Bledsoe
14) Deron Williams
15) Rondo
16) Rubio
17) Holiday
18) Teague
19) MCW
20) Isaiah Thomas

In that order.

JustinTime
09-29-2014, 05:22 PM
hahaah dude please justify the rankings for Hill, collison, Calderon, Miller, and Mills bcuz only calderson is top 20 and its prob at #20 at best while the rest are simply laughable. when you claim to forgot two guys like Teague and Irviing it really shows how little you know

Calderon is not top 20. He's gotta be the NBA's worst defender.

Vee-Rex
09-29-2014, 05:23 PM
George Hill is indisputably the greatest PG of all time. My list:

1-20: George Hill

DemarDerozan
09-29-2014, 05:40 PM
Dupe

DemarDerozan
09-29-2014, 05:41 PM
This is out of control wrong. Like, not even close.

He has led the league in steals five times, has been all-defensive 1st team four times and 2nd team twice. Explain how CP3 is not a top ten all time defensive PG.
Name ten defensive point guards that were better... And I'm talking career span. Not five years of Rondo or Penny.

Payton, Kidd, Frazier, Sloan, Mookie,Norm Van Lier and Chris Paul are the only PGs to be on six or more all defensive teams...
So who are the other four PGs that were better defensively than CP3 throughout their career?

You could argue Mo Cheeks and Stockton... But that's about it IMO. Don't forget Chris Paul is only 29. He may very well rack up a couple more steals titles and all defensive teams.

prodigy
09-29-2014, 05:46 PM
1) CP3
2) Curry
3) Westbrook
4) Parker
5) Irving
6) Llilard
7) Rose
8) Conely
9) Wall
10) Lowry
11) Dragic
12) Lawson
13) Bledsoe
14) Deron Williams
15) Rondo
16) Rubio
17) Holiday
18) Teague
19) MCW
20) Isaiah Thomas

In that order.

I don't feel like making my own list but this is pretty darn close to my thinking. I would put rose and rondo at 19 and 20th because of major injury concerns. If healthy both will fly up the list. I would drop Irving a little move lillard up but for most part I agree.

IndyRealist
09-29-2014, 08:57 PM
hahaah dude please justify the rankings for Hill, collison, Calderon, Miller, and Mills bcuz only calderson is top 20 and its prob at #20 at best while the rest are simply laughable. when you claim to forgot two guys like Teague and Irviing it really shows how little you know

Which one do you want to hear? I'll skip Hill because he's on my team and no matter what people will just say I'm being a homer. How about Collison? In the last 5 years, he's averaged 2158 minutes per year, so no one can claim small sample size. He sports a 2.28:1 ast:to ratio and in the last 3 years has been below average in turnovers. He is significantly above average on 2pt FG%, 3pt FG%, FT%, and posted a TS% of 57.5% over the last two years (average for a PG is 52.7%).

And before anyone says "But he's a low usage guy which inflates his percentages!" no he's not. He's at 20.3% for his career. He's a medium-high usage player who is targeted by defenses as the primary ballhandler while he is on the floor. When he's the second ballhandler he is, again, a great spot up shooter who spaces the floor and gets to the right place at the right time.

"But his teammates inflate his numbers!" Like the dysfunctional Dallas team in 12-13 where his role constantly changed, but he still put up as good or better numbers than he did on the Clippers in 13-14? Or with the Hornets when he averaged 18+/9+ over 7 straight games as a starter subbing for an injured Chris Paul when he was a ROOKIE?

He's also a decent, pesky defender who uses quick hands and anticipation to break up plays. He's small and compensates for his size by playing significant pressure on the ballhandler, which is remarkable because he's significantly BELOW the average for fouls.

He's a fantastic spot up shooter, and has a good floater mid range. His size is a disadvantage at the rim, where he struggles to convert and so he developed that floater. His primary play is the drive and kick, often using screens but sometimes just backing up and using his straight line dribble speed to blow by his backpedaling defender. When the secondary defender rotates over to cut him off from the rim, if he does not put up a floater over the guy's head he outlet's to either the open man or the designated shooter depending on the scheme (obviously the different teams he has been on ran different plays according to personnel).

He's a superior offensive player and a good defensive player, who can run a team and minimize mistakes. So, smart-*****, tell me why he's not a top 20 point guard.

JustinTime
09-29-2014, 09:34 PM
He has led the league in steals five times, has been all-defensive 1st team four times and 2nd team twice. Explain how CP3 is not a top ten all time defensive PG.
Name ten defensive point guards that were better... And I'm talking career span. Not five years of Rondo or Penny.

Payton, Kidd, Frazier, Sloan, Mookie,Norm Van Lier and Chris Paul are the only PGs to be on six or more all defensive teams...
So who are the other four PGs that were better defensively than CP3 throughout their career?

You could argue Mo Cheeks and Stockton... But that's about it IMO. Don't forget Chris Paul is only 29. He may very well rack up a couple more steals titles and all defensive teams.

Steals isn't a defensive stat it's an offensive one. Someone who gets a lot of steal usually takes more risks on the defensive end which means that it's often a sign of bad d if anything. Kyle Lowry the year before last was benched at times for doing just that. He'd get himself out of his defensive position by gambling on steals.

FriedTofuz
09-29-2014, 09:46 PM
so many people are blinded about kyrie irving.he's a scoring PG with no passing abilities or defense.
with lebron his efficiency will go up, but his ast will go even further down and along with his points. He's barely top 10

DemarDerozan
09-29-2014, 10:33 PM
Steals isn't a defensive stat it's an offensive one. Someone who gets a lot of steal usually takes more risks on the defensive end which means that it's often a sign of bad d if anything. Kyle Lowry the year before last was benched at times for doing just that. He'd get himself out of his defensive position by gambling on steals.

It's all about knowing when to go for the steal. Also if a steal is a defensive stat does that mean a fast break is a defensive play because you cause a mismatch on the other end? Come on dude. Steals and blocks are the building blocks of defense.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steal_(basketball)

Also... CP3 being a six time all defender most likely had something to do with the steals.

prodigy
09-29-2014, 10:46 PM
so many people are blinded about kyrie irving.he's a scoring PG with no passing abilities or defense.
with lebron his efficiency will go up, but his ast will go even further down and along with his points. He's barely top 10

I'm a cavs fan and I've always been tough on him. I've had to defend him a lot lately because people talking out their backsides but by no means am I a Irving homer. He avg'ed over 6 assist last season on a team with really only 1 other guy who could score constantly In waiters. He's always been a really good flashy passer on team USA and all star games. one can argue he needs to do it more in regular season games and that's fine. But once again gotta look who he had to pass to over the last few years.

I believe he will get around 8 assist a game. Lebron, love, waiters, av, all those 3pt shooters they got Irving will def get his assits.

Duncan = Donkey
09-30-2014, 03:33 AM
1) CP3
2) Curry
3) Westbrook
4) Parker
5) Irving
6) Llilard
7) Rose
8) Conely
9) Wall
10) Lowry
11) Dragic
12) Lawson
13) Bledsoe
14) Deron Williams
15) Rondo
16) Rubio
17) Holiday
18) Teague
19) MCW
20) Isaiah Thomas

In that order.

Dragic that low is a disgrace.

Heatcheck
09-30-2014, 07:58 AM
Why is Cp3 constantly given Jordan treatment at the PG when he hasn't accomplished *****.

As a PG, he averages almost 20 a game plus his 10+ apg, shoots in the upper 40% from the field, and leads the league in steals every year. He basically took NO to the playoffs by himself with david west and Tyson chandler as his second options, in the west. one of those years he handed dallas their *** (the year after dirk won mvp) in 5 games averaging something like 25 and 12 shooting almost 50%.

Even now, its him, Griffin, a bunch of has beens and also rans, and Jordan playing defense in the paint.
the guys ****ing amazing.

JustinTime
09-30-2014, 09:21 AM
I don't feel like making my own list but this is pretty darn close to my thinking. I would put rose and rondo at 19 and 20th because of major injury concerns. If healthy both will fly up the list. I would drop Irving a little move lillard up but for most part I agree.

give me lilard over irving any day. I might even take him over Westbrook because he's too dumb.

Oefarmy2005
09-30-2014, 09:22 AM
Dragic that low is a disgrace.
That's your opinion, and this is mine. He is actually higher than I originally wanted to put him. I think he is a bit overrated because of the system he plays in, he was never all that effective before Phoenix.

IndyRealist
09-30-2014, 09:33 AM
It's all about knowing when to go for the steal. Also if a steal is a defensive stat does that mean a fast break is a defensive play because you cause a mismatch on the other end? Come on dude. Steals and blocks are the building blocks of defense.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steal_(basketball)

Also... CP3 being a six time all defender most likely had something to do with the steals.
Agreed. Steals take away an opponent's opportunity to score, it's definitely an important defensive stat. Even bad shots can go in, steals don't even let you take a bad shot. Now some players gamble too much, but that's part of the defensive philosophy. Especially for PGs some coaches want the ballhandler to be constantly pressured and lets the rotation man pick up the ballhandler if he gets by.

Chronz
09-30-2014, 10:23 AM
The Clippers are a damn good team, If he's so good a team like that should be winning a few championships or at least making the finals.
As a Clippers fan, i disagree entirely with that premise.

2-ONE-5
09-30-2014, 11:05 AM
1. Paul
2. Westbrook
3. Curry
4. Parker
5. Lowry
6. Wall
7. Conley
8. Lillard
9. Dragic
10. Irving
11. Lawson
12. Rose
13. Rondo
14. Teague
15. Holiday
16. D. Williams
17. Kemba
18. MCW
19. Rubio
20. I. Thomas

pebloemer
09-30-2014, 11:08 AM
1. Paul
2. Curry
3. Parker
4. Westbrook
5. Lillard
6. Wall
7. Irving
8. Dragic
9. Lowry
10. Conley
11. Lawson
12. D Williams

I really don't have the energy to compare the others. I left Rose off because I simply have no clue where to put him after the past couple seasons. I'm sure he can fit on there somewhere, but at this stage it would be a complete guess

IndyRealist
10-01-2014, 09:52 AM
1. Paul
2. Westbrook
3. Curry
4. Parker
5. Lowry
6. Wall
7. Conley
8. Lillard
9. Dragic
10. Irving
11. Lawson
12. Rose
13. Rondo
14. Teague
15. Holiday
16. D. Williams
17. Kemba
18. MCW
19. Rubio
20. I. Thomas

Since you're avoiding giving a response, let's compare Collison to your #17, Kemba Walker.
Collison vs. Walker vs. PG Average
2pt FG% 50.1% | 41.7% | 42.8%
3pt FG% 37.6% | 33.3% | 35.8%
FT% 85.7% | 83.5% | 80.9%
eFG% 51.8% | 44.1% | 48.8%
TS% 57.5% | 49.9% | 53.4%
D-reb/48 3.3 | 4.4 | 4.1
O-reb/48 1.1 | 0.7 | 0.9
Ast/48 6.9 | 8.2 | 8.6
TO/48 3.1 | 3.1 | 3.4
Blk/48 0.3 | 0.6 | 0.3
Stl/48 2.2 | 1.6 | 1.8
Foul/48 3.5 2.4 3.5

Kemba is slightly above average (meaning good) in blocks, defensive rebounds, and turnovers. He is substantially above average (meaning good) in fouls. HOWEVER, he is below average at everything else, INCLUDING SCORING. He is also below average at generating possessions (steals and offensive rebounds). If he were a foot taller, he'd be Sam Dalembert.

Darren on the other hand, is substantially above average on 2pt FGs, 3pt FGs, and FTs. Basically, he's a better scorer in every way than Kemba. Collison also generates possessions at an above average rate, Kemba does not. I've already broken down Collison's game, offensively and defensively, so I won't rehash that here. Stylistically they are similar players, Collison is just better at it by a wide margin.

I'm not saying that Kemba Walker isn't a good player (well, I'm kinda saying it, but he will likely get better). I'm not even necessarily saying Darren Collison should be among the top 20 PGs (though he's on my list). What I'm saying is, if Kemba Walker is on your list and Darren Collison is not, you've got some seriously messed up methods for evaluation. You don't even have to compare the two players, all you have to do is look at Kemba Walker vs. the NBA average PG. He scores a lot of points because they let him take a lot of shots, not because he's any good at it. Let's not pretend he's Kobe, ok?

2-ONE-5
10-01-2014, 10:09 AM
i dont care dude. When collison is asked to run a team and not come off the bench for play 15-25 min vs backups then we can talk about it. Collison is a solid backup PG, one of the best even but he is far from a top 20 PG.

you are the only one with Collison and those other bums in on your list.

IndyRealist
10-01-2014, 10:19 AM
i dont care dude. When collison is asked to run a team and not come off the bench for play 15-25 min vs backups then we can talk about it. Collison is a solid backup PG, one of the best even but he is far from a top 20 PG.

you are the only one with Collison and those other bums in on your list.

Again, Collison averages over 2000 minutes played per season. You call someone out, and then fail to produce a single coherent argument as to why you're right. All you have is, "my list is like other lists, because I can't form my own opinion". If you don't know what you're talking about, just say so and be done with it. Stop trolling.

2-ONE-5
10-01-2014, 10:28 AM
really the dude who ranked Collison, Calderson, Miller, Mills, Hill in the top 20 while leaving off Irving and Teague is calling me a troll for ranking Kemba over Collison? Or the same dude who thinks Hill is better then Irving

IndyRealist
10-01-2014, 10:33 AM
really the dude who ranked Collison, Calderson, Miller, Mills, Hill in the top 20 while leaving off Irving and Teague is calling me a troll for ranking Kemba over Collison? Or the same dude who thinks Hill is better then Irving

Still waiting for a coherent argument.

2-ONE-5
10-01-2014, 11:03 AM
im not wasting my time arguing bench players and PG's in the last tier. good luck finding someone who agrees with you

IndyRealist
10-01-2014, 12:09 PM
im not wasting my time arguing bench players and PG's in the last tier. good luck finding someone who agrees with you

The point was never to convince you, or anybody else for the matter. I am pointing out what should be obvious to everyone by now, that you have put absolutely no thought into your posts, and are just regurgitating what other people say. You don't know or understand anything, and your opinion isn't even your own. You're a lemming.

I'm going to stop now before they close the thread.

Oefarmy2005
10-01-2014, 12:41 PM
The point was never to convince you, or anybody else for the matter. I am pointing out what should be obvious to everyone by now, that you have put absolutely no thought into your posts, and are just regurgitating what other people say. You don't know or understand anything, and your opinion isn't even your own. You're a lemming.

I'm going to stop now before they close the thread.


He is right though. If he didn't put any thought into his posts, what does that say about you and your absolutely ridiculous PG rankings?

2-ONE-5
10-01-2014, 01:35 PM
hahaahahah

i did put thought into them, i dont know how u think i didnt simply bcuz i left out Collison LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. this dude just looked for any crazy advanced stats he could that would back his outrageous claims. Remember Hill > Irving

prodigy
10-01-2014, 09:51 PM
I don't feel like making my own list but this is pretty darn close to my thinking. I would put rose and rondo at 19 and 20th because of major injury concerns. If healthy both will fly up the list. I would drop Irving a little move lillard up but for most part I agree.

give me lilard over irving any day. I might even take him over Westbrook because he's too dumb.

I would agree I love lilard. Although Irving might just be a better fit with lebron.

FlashBolt
10-01-2014, 10:23 PM
These lists don't get me angry at all. I'm just amazed that the talent in the PG department is this amazing. I cannot recall a position being this stacked other than the front courts of the old age.. This is just crazy. Imagine if our center position was THIS stacked from 1-10...

mrblisterdundee
10-02-2014, 01:20 AM
1-5:Chris Paul, Stephen Curry, Russell Westbrook, John Wall, Tony Parker
6-10: Kyle Lowry, Damian Lillard, Eric Bledsoe, Ty Lawson, Kyrie Irving
11-15: Mike Conley, Kemba Walker, Deron Williams, Jrue Holiday, Jeff Teague
16-20: Isaiah Thomas, Rajon Rondo, Ricky Rubio, Michael Carter-Williams, George Hill

Goose17
10-02-2014, 02:39 AM
These lists don't get me angry at all. I'm just amazed that the talent in the PG department is this amazing. I cannot recall a position being this stacked other than the front courts of the old age.. This is just crazy. Imagine if our center position was THIS stacked from 1-10...

I've been thinking the same, I mean no matter where you rate them, the fact that people are forgetting the likes of Irving and Collison just goes to show how deep it really is.

Is this the second golden age of point guards? lol

dalton749
10-02-2014, 03:39 AM
I would agree I love lilard. Although Irving might just be a better fit with lebron.

Lillard is overrated. He's a great shooter, but doesn't finish well at the rim despite having much better floor spacing than Irving. Plus he was a 4 year college play and has less room to grow.

MisterRoddy
10-02-2014, 03:54 AM
After this season, Irving will be in a lot of people's top 3. Some just don't understand that playing with garbage (both players and coaches) can heavily affect level of play.

Chris Paul - Blake Griffin, Jamal Crawford
Westbrook - KD, Ibaka
Lillard - Aldridge, Batum
Curry- Thompson, Lee, Iggy

Irving - n/a (prior to this year)

What do you guys expect of him with a lineup like that and Mike Brown at the helm? Lol.

MisterRoddy
10-02-2014, 04:01 AM
With that in mind, here is mine:

Tier 1:
1. Paul
2. Curry
3. Westbrook
4. Irving

Tier 2:
5. Wall
6. Lillard
7. Dragic
8. Parker
9. Rose
10. Lowry
11. Rondo

Tier 3:
12. Lawson
13. Conley
14. Bledsoe
15. Holliday
16. D. Williams
17. Teague
18. I Thomas

Tier 4:
19. Walker
20. Rubio
21. Carter-Williams
22. Hill

Goose17
10-02-2014, 04:14 AM
Lillard is overrated. He's a great shooter, but doesn't finish well at the rim despite having much better floor spacing than Irving. Plus he was a 4 year college play and has less room to grow.

Lillard isn't overrated, Kyrie has been though, maybe not on here but definitely in general.

As for finishing at the rim. Lillard attempted 433 shots from within 5ft of the basket last season and converted on 48.5% so you're right, it's not a great % at all. But that is something that can be worked on. He's already a better shooter and distributor than Kyrie and the better defender as well.

Kyrie has nice handles I'll give him that. I don't even have him in my top 10 though.

MisterRoddy
10-02-2014, 04:30 AM
Lillard isn't overrated, Kyrie has been though, maybe not on here but definitely in general.

As for finishing at the rim. Lillard attempted 433 shots from within 5ft of the basket last season and converted on 48.5% so you're right, it's not a great % at all. But that is something that can be worked on. He's already a better shooter and distributor than Kyrie and the better defender as well.

Kyrie has nice handles I'll give him that. I don't even have him in my top 10 though.

? Kyrie averaged more points, assists, and rebounds than Lillard while also having a higher FG% and PER. All of that while being 2 years younger and playing on a ****** team. Not to mention LIllard's D is just as piss poor as Irving's. He just gets a pass because he actually plays on a good team (same with Harden until recently).

I really just don't understand the recent negative opinions on Kyrie's game. If you actually watch him play instead of just looking at his W-L record, you can tell that he's obviously one of the most talented PGs in the league and that isn't even a question.

(PS I think Lillard is a beast, just not as good as Kyrie).

Goose17
10-02-2014, 05:08 AM
? Kyrie averaged more points

That doesn't make him a better shooter.

Lillards TS% = .56%
Irvings TS% = .53%

Irving shoots an eFG% of .451% on jump shots.
Lillard shoots an eFG% of .509% on jump shots.

In the clutch Irving shoots an eFG% of .454% on jump shots.
In the clutch Lillard shoots an eFG% of .621% on jump shots.

Irving has an eFG% of 46.7% on pull up jump shots.
Lillard has an eFG% of 48.3% on pull up jump shots.

Irving has an eFG% of 46.0% on catch and shoot shots.
Lillard has an eFG% of 61.6% on catch and shoot shots.


Irving is NOT a better shooter, in any way. At all.





? Kyrie averaged more assists

That doesn't make him the better distributor.

Last season Lillard had an Assist:TO ratio of 2.37
Last season Irving had an Assist:TO ratio of 2.28

I personally think that makes up for the 0.5 difference in APG.



? Kyrie averaged more rebounds than Lillard

Yep. Didn't say Lillard was a better rebounder. I don't care much about rebounding when it comes to rating PGs, if they can do it well it's a bonus.

I'll gladly give Irving that though. You're right.




while also having a higher FG% and PER.

PER only really takes into account offense, and even then it's flawed. You can't rely on one stat to judge a players entire game.



Not to mention LIllard's D is just as piss poor as Irving's.

No it isn't.

Lillard held his counterparts to an average of .472% (eFG%), 17.2 PER (league average is 15) and 2.7 turnovers. Lillards DefRtg is 105.1, Irving has a DefRtg of 106.8. Irving did have a higher DWS though, so you could argue that.

bbcmillionaire
10-02-2014, 05:30 AM
Rose will be top 5 before the season is over.
Tony Parker( has the talent and credentials)
Cp3
Westbrook
Curry
Irving
Lillard
Wall
Lowry
Dragic
Conley
D will
Jrue(missed time)
Lawson(missed time)
Rose(missed time)
Rondo (missed time)
Bledsoe
Beverly
Mcw
Jennings
Isiah Thomas(most under-rated pg)

MisterRoddy
10-02-2014, 05:46 AM
That doesn't make him a better shooter.

Lillards TS% = .56%
Irvings TS% = .53%

Irving shoots an eFG% of .451% on jump shots.
Lillard shoots an eFG% of .509% on jump shots.

In the clutch Irving shoots an eFG% of .454% on jump shots.
In the clutch Lillard shoots an eFG% of .621% on jump shots.

Irving has an eFG% of 46.7% on pull up jump shots.
Lillard has an eFG% of 48.3% on pull up jump shots.
Irving has an eFG% of 46.0% on catch and shoot shots.
Lillard has an eFG% of 61.6% on catch and shoot shots.

Irving is NOT a better shooter, in any way. At all.

I don't care to get into a "search for statistics that back up my argument." I never said Irving was the definitive better shooter. Their career #s point to them being very similar shooters (likely more related to true talent level). So for you to imply that it isn't even close is wrong.


That doesn't make him the better distributor.
Last season Lillard had an Assist:TO ratio of 2.37
Last season Irving had an Assist:TO ratio of 2.28

I personally think that makes up for the 0.5 difference in APG.

Bro Lillard has Aldridge and Batum. Kyrie hadů.a very average Waiters. Take that into account and the fact that they had similar assist rates, you do the math. Kyrie is likely the better distributor.


PER only really takes into account offense, and even then it's flawed. You can't rely on one stat to judge a players entire game.

It was, literally, 1 of 5 statistics I brought into the equation. It's a very very relevant statistic.


No it isn't.

Lillard held his counterparts to an average of .472% (eFG%), 17.2 PER (league average is 15) and 2.7 turnovers. Lillards DefRtg is 105.1, Irving has a DefRtg of 106.8. Irving did have a higher DWS though, so you could argue that.

Not sure where you got your DefRtg stat from. Basketball-Reference has Lillard at 110 DRtng and Kyrie at 108 DRting while Kyrie has more DWS and Steal%. Lillard has pretty much been just as bad as Irving at defense and statistics support that.

So basically, Lillard is maybe a little better at shooting than Irving. Irving is a little better at distributing and rebounding. Irving holds a significant advantage in ball-handling, penetration, and age/potential while they are similar at everything else.

Conclusion: Irving is better.

Goose17
10-02-2014, 05:51 AM
Lillard is MUCH better at shooting. The stats back it up, they're not even comparable. Lillard is a better defender (DefRtg and Drtng are not the same thing, the former is for assessing individuals, the latter is more to do with teams). Lillard is on par as a distributor maybe even marginally better because of the fact he turns it over less.

Irving has the handles and the rebounding ability and finishes better around the rim (although weirdly enough draws less fouls)

Conclusion; Lillard is better.

WaDe03
10-02-2014, 09:33 AM
Lillard is better than Irving.

prodigy
10-02-2014, 09:47 AM
Lillard is overrated. He's a great shooter, but doesn't finish well at the rim despite having much better floor spacing than Irving. Plus he was a 4 year college play and has less room to grow.

Lillard isn't overrated, Kyrie has been though, maybe not on here but definitely in general.

As for finishing at the rim. Lillard attempted 433 shots from within 5ft of the basket last season and converted on 48.5% so you're right, it's not a great % at all. But that is something that can be worked on. He's already a better shooter and distributor than Kyrie and the better defender as well.

Kyrie has nice handles I'll give him that. I don't even have him in my top 10 though.

Irving also faces more double and even triple teams then lillard has. So shooting numbers can be a little misleading. I also believe Irving has more upside. Lillard is a great talent though no question.

JustinTime
10-02-2014, 09:49 AM
I don't care to get into a "search for statistics that back up my argument." I never said Irving was the definitive better shooter. Their career #s point to them being very similar shooters (likely more related to true talent level). So for you to imply that it isn't even close is wrong.



Bro Lillard has Aldridge and Batum. Kyrie hadů.a very average Waiters. Take that into account and the fact that they had similar assist rates, you do the math. Kyrie is likely the better distributor.



It was, literally, 1 of 5 statistics I brought into the equation. It's a very very relevant statistic.



Not sure where you got your DefRtg stat from. Basketball-Reference has Lillard at 110 DRtng and Kyrie at 108 DRting while Kyrie has more DWS and Steal%. Lillard has pretty much been just as bad as Irving at defense and statistics support that.

So basically, Lillard is maybe a little better at shooting than Irving. Irving is a little better at distributing and rebounding. Irving holds a significant advantage in ball-handling, penetration, and age/potential while they are similar at everything else.

Conclusion: Irving is better.

Lillard is way better than Irving. I don't care what Irving does these season it'll all be because of Lebron people should know that and stop overrating him.

IndyRealist
10-02-2014, 10:21 AM
I don't care to get into a "search for statistics that back up my argument." I never said Irving was the definitive better shooter. Their career #s point to them being very similar shooters (likely more related to true talent level). So for you to imply that it isn't even close is wrong.



Bro Lillard has Aldridge and Batum. Kyrie hadů.a very average Waiters. Take that into account and the fact that they had similar assist rates, you do the math. Kyrie is likely the better distributor.



It was, literally, 1 of 5 statistics I brought into the equation. It's a very very relevant statistic.



Not sure where you got your DefRtg stat from. Basketball-Reference has Lillard at 110 DRtng and Kyrie at 108 DRting while Kyrie has more DWS and Steal%. Lillard has pretty much been just as bad as Irving at defense and statistics support that.

So basically, Lillard is maybe a little better at shooting than Irving. Irving is a little better at distributing and rebounding. Irving holds a significant advantage in ball-handling, penetration, and age/potential while they are similar at everything else.

Conclusion: Irving is better.

You quite literally went in search for statistics to back up your argument. Goose just had better ones, and probably a better argument.

I'm now withholding judgement on Irving till we see what he can do with a real team. Unlike others, I've never been a fan of Waiters and rhat could cause a lot of problems for Kyrie. Lillard has fantastic shooters and a great post player to work with.

valade16
10-02-2014, 11:23 AM
So basically, Lillard is maybe a little better at shooting than Irving. Irving is a little better at distributing and rebounding. Irving holds a significant advantage in ball-handling, penetration, and age/potential while they are similar at everything else.

Conclusion: Irving is better.

Is that some kind of a joke? Lillard is way better at shooting than Irving. I mean, it's hard to take literally anything else you say seriously when you have such a fantastically wrong view of each players capabilities in this instance.

prodigy
10-02-2014, 12:15 PM
null

What lillard does is only because of batum and Aldridge. Not really far is it? Irving is a good player without lebron and will be a good player with lebron.

prodigy
10-02-2014, 12:18 PM
So basically, Lillard is maybe a little better at shooting than Irving. Irving is a little better at distributing and rebounding. Irving holds a significant advantage in ball-handling, penetration, and age/potential while they are similar at everything else.

Conclusion: Irving is better.

Is that some kind of a joke? Lillard is way better at shooting than Irving. I mean, it's hard to take literally anything else you say seriously when you have such a fantastically wrong view of each players capabilities in this instance.

Irving is a dang good shooter. Won awards because of it. He faced other teams best defenders while lillard has not. Stat wise yes lillard better shooter, but Irving will have open looks now too. So we will see. I'll take either player though. Both really really good.

tredigs
10-02-2014, 01:03 PM
Is that some kind of a joke? Lillard is way better at shooting than Irving. I mean, it's hard to take literally anything else you say seriously when you have such a fantastically wrong view of each players capabilities in this instance.

Lol, they are a complete wash as shooters pretty much any way you dice it. If you can't see that by watching their games, realize it by their career TS%'s being 55% and 56%, or their career slashes being 45/38/86 and 43/38/86.

You're talking about Lillard/Irving, not Curry/Irving. The prior are as close as shooters as it gets.

valade16
10-02-2014, 01:19 PM
Lol, they are a complete wash as shooters pretty much any way you dice it. If you can't see that by watching their games, realize it by their career TS%'s being 55% and 56%, or their career slashes being 45/38/86 and 43/38/86.

You're talking about Lillard/Irving, not Curry/Irving. The prior are as close as shooters as it gets.

Are people ****ing with me at this point? TS%? Are you seriously using TS% to say who is the better shooter? Well in that case Tyson Chandler must be one of the greatest shooters of all-time since he has a remarkable TS%.

But here is Goose's post regarding their shooting:


That doesn't make him a better shooter.

Lillards TS% = .56%
Irvings TS% = .53%

Irving shoots an eFG% of .451% on jump shots.
Lillard shoots an eFG% of .509% on jump shots.

In the clutch Irving shoots an eFG% of .454% on jump shots.
In the clutch Lillard shoots an eFG% of .621% on jump shots.

Irving has an eFG% of 46.7% on pull up jump shots.
Lillard has an eFG% of 48.3% on pull up jump shots.

Irving has an eFG% of 46.0% on catch and shoot shots.
Lillard has an eFG% of 61.6% on catch and shoot shots.

In addition to that here are their shooting stats 16 - 3pt and 3pt last season:

16 - 3pt:
Lillard 44.7%
Irving 38.9%

3PT:
Lillard 39.4% (on 6.8 Att.)
Irving 35.8% (on 4.8 Att.)

So if by complete wash you mean Lillard is better in every single statistical measurement of shooting ability, then yeah, complete wash.

Goose17
10-02-2014, 01:47 PM
I'm willing to accept that the other aspects I mentioned (defense, passing etc) can be argued either way, you can find support for both even if one side is more of a stretch.

But there is no way I will ever let someone say Irving is as good or even close to being as good as Lillard when it comes to shooting the ball.

It's not close. In any way. At all.


Now... There does exist a possibility that playing with LBJ and Love will get Irving cleaner shots, or within Blatts system he'll get more shots assisted on (Blatt loves ball movement). And if that happens and his numbers miraculously jump and somehow match Lillards production, I will gladly accept that I was wrong. I'm not holding my breath though.

tredigs
10-02-2014, 02:00 PM
Are people ****ing with me at this point? TS%? Are you seriously using TS% to say who is the better shooter? Well in that case Tyson Chandler must be one of the greatest shooters of all-time since he has a remarkable TS%.

But here is Goose's post regarding their shooting:



In addition to that here are their shooting stats 16 - 3pt and 3pt last season:

16 - 3pt:
Lillard 44.7%
Irving 38.9%

3PT:
Lillard 39.4% (on 6.8 Att.)
Irving 35.8% (on 4.8 Att.)

So if by complete wash you mean Lillard is better in every single statistical measurement of shooting ability, then yeah, complete wash.
Yes, if you want to take last season (a down year for Irving) as the 1 year sample size to compare the two, Lillard (and his far better offensive cast which afforded him ample space in comparison to Kyrie) looked better. But I'll choose to look at the total picture.

Why would you not factor in TS% for two players at the same position who score at the exact same level? The only reason I would consider omitting it is because Kyrie puts his #'s up as a #1 with a terrible offensive cast while Lillard does it as a #2 on one of the top 3 offensive casts in the league. And then I love that you want to include eFG%. So, basically what you're saying is that you want the exact same stat as TS%, but not include FT's (the only time you get to see the two shoot outside of the effects of their team). That's brilliant.

Kyrie - as a 19 yr old rookie on similar volume to Lillard - put up a better slash (47/40/87) and a higher eFG% (52%) than Lillard did in either season.

Even with Kyrie's down year last season, I'll still take his chances going forward as a shooter/scorer of Lillard's caliber if not better. He'll have extra motivation this season and he'll also be afforded the luxury that Lillard has had in playing with an elite offensive cast. And Kyrie (entering season 4), will now finally be the age that Lillard was as a rookie.

Goose17
10-02-2014, 02:18 PM
You're not differentiating between scorer and shooter. This is the problem.

I'm talking about shooting. And the gap between them in that regard is VERY significant. They're not comparable.

As for free throws... not really the same thing is it? Come on now. You're better than that. I know you are.

Goose17
10-02-2014, 02:20 PM
And I love how Portland are an "elite offensive cast". Would you have said that prior to this season? None of you had them positioned where they finished. Nobody saw that coming.

valade16
10-02-2014, 02:24 PM
And I love how Portland are an "elite offensive cast". Would you have said that prior to this season? None of you had them positioned where they finished. Nobody saw that coming.

Exactly, and this really pisses me off. Before the season it was Portland is not gonna make the playoffs. Then when they started hot it was Portland's not gonna be able to sustain that level of play. Then when they made the playoffs it's Portland's gonne lose handidly in the first round.

Irving is better at a number of things than Lillard, and I'm not even saying Lillard is a better player, but he is a better shooter and there really is no possible debate about that unless you literally don't watch Lillard play.

Goose17
10-02-2014, 02:33 PM
Edit: I'm going to write a bigger post when I get home. Posting from my phone @ work right now.

tredigs
10-02-2014, 02:41 PM
You're not differentiating between scorer and shooter. This is the problem.

I'm talking about shooting. And the gap between them in that regard is VERY significant. They're not comparable.

As for free throws... not really the same thing is it? Come on now. You're better than that. I know you are.
Yes, because FT's are just the worst representation of ones ability to shoot and how that ability affects a game. Definitely a non-mention.

Yet, we're talking about their %'s from 16ft to 3pt, where Lillard took just 13% of his shots? In a similar vein, from 10-16 feet Lillard shot just 39%, while Kyrie shot 44%. The prior year Lillard was right up there at Kyrie's 44%... those sample sizes can get finnicky, which you can see with Irving 2 years ago being at 45% from that 16ft <3pt range (matching Lillard's high), despite his down year last year.

Here's the long and short of the argument: Lillard was a better shooter/player than Irving last season, but based on their casts, their age, and their track record prior to that, I see absolutely no proof/reason to put them in separate categories as shooters. I'll also bet that Kyrie has a better eFG% (since we don't want to include that pesky shot that teams don't effect) and shooting %'s from 10 ft and longer next season (both scoring within ~3 ppg of each other).

valade16
10-02-2014, 02:52 PM
Yes, because FT's are just the worst representation of ones ability to shoot and how that ability affects a game. Definitely a non-mention.

Yet, we're talking about their %'s from 16ft to 3pt, where Lillard took just 13% of his shots? In a similar vein, from 10-16 feet Lillard shot just 39%, while Kyrie shot 44%. The prior year Lillard was right up there at Kyrie's 44%... those sample sizes can get finnicky, which you can see with Irving 2 years ago being at 45% from that 16ft <3pt range (matching Lillard's high), despite his down year last year.

Here's the long and short of the argument: Lillard was a better shooter/player than Irving last season, but based on their casts, their age, and their track record prior to that, I see absolutely no proof/reason to put them in separate categories as shooters. I'll also bet that Kyrie has a better eFG% (since we don't want to include that pesky shot that teams don't effect) and shooting %'s from 10 ft and longer next season (both scoring within ~3 ppg of each other).

So you're going to nitpick 2 of the 10 or so stats that show Lillard is a better shooter? What about every other stat Goose posted, including the ones where he showed Lillard absolutely abuse Kyrie on catch and shoot shots?

Also, Lillard's eFG last season was 50.8%, Irving's was 48.0%. But the big problem with your argument is you make a littany of excuses for why Kyrie's last season was outside his norm yet somehow want to use Lillard's rookie season as if he will somehow revert to that level of shooting. He improved his shooting last season and I see no reason why it would suddenly regress to his rookie season levels. His shooting #'s will be near or superior to what they were last season...

prodigy
10-02-2014, 03:01 PM
I'm willing to accept that the other aspects I mentioned (defense, passing etc) can be argued either way, you can find support for both even if one side is more of a stretch.

But there is no way I will ever let someone say Irving is as good or even close to being as good as Lillard when it comes to shooting the ball.

It's not close. In any way. At all.


Now... There does exist a possibility that playing with LBJ and Love will get Irving cleaner shots, or within Blatts system he'll get more shots assisted on (Blatt loves ball movement). And if that happens and his numbers miraculously jump and somehow match Lillards production, I will gladly accept that I was wrong. I'm not holding my breath though.

So you don't think Irving will get more open shots with love and Bron? Lol well if they keep doubling Irving lebron will avg 50 a game. Clearly Irving will get better looks just like lillard does playing with good players. Irving was near 40% his first 2 years from three. Last year teams did everything they could to take him out.

prodigy
10-02-2014, 03:10 PM
And I love how Portland are an "elite offensive cast". Would you have said that prior to this season? None of you had them positioned where they finished. Nobody saw that coming.

I've always liked Portland. I still wouldn't say they are elite, but a good team. They did play very well last season better then most thought. But not sure what the point is? They still had much better players then the cavs did which gave lillard better looks. I'm not sure how anyone can disagree with this.

If lillard was on the cavs his shooting numbers would be down too.

But once again both players are really good. Maybe after this season we will have a better idea. Because you guys are basing everything off of Irving's worse season, which is still pretty good lol.

tredigs
10-02-2014, 03:11 PM
PG shooting tiers:

1: Curry / Nash / Calderon

2: Irving / Lillard / CP3 (best mid-range shooter alongside TP and Curry) / Dragic (small sample size being here, but I think he stays)

3: Lawson / Lowry / Parker / Deron Williams, etc

4: Westbrook / Rose, etc

5: Rubio

6: Rondo

Goose17
10-02-2014, 03:47 PM
So you don't think Irving will get more open shots with love and Bron?

You should read my post again.


Yes, because FT's are just the worst representation of ones ability to shoot and how that ability affects a game. Definitely a non-mention.


Shooting during the flow of a game and shooting a stand still free throw with no defender in your face and all the time in the world are not the same. A bad shooter can still hit their free throws. It's not the same as coming off a screen and hitting the catch and shoot or coming off the screen as the handler and knocking it down. It's not the same as shooting off the bounce with a defender closing in on you or hitting the step back. There is a great amount of psychology involved in free throw shotting but I don't rate it as a measure of a players overall shooting ability.



Yes, if you want to take last season (a down year for Irving) as the 1 year sample size to compare the two, Lillard (and his far better offensive cast which afforded him ample space in comparison to Kyrie) looked better.

So, can we agree that Lillard was the better shooter this season?


And how is comparing Lillards rookie season to Irvings Sophomore season more fair than what I did? Or even comparing Irvings 3 years to Lillards 2? The best way to tell who the best shooter is right now is to look at right now.

And if Lillards numbers are a little lower than Kyrie's, does he get the same excuse? A bad team. Because Portland finished 33-49 the exact same record Cleveland finished with this year... or were Portland still "elite" offensively?

What about great players on other bad teams that put up great numbers... why should Irving be held to a different standard?



Yet, we're talking about their %'s from 16ft to 3pt, where Lillard took just 13% of his shots? we're talking about their %'s from 16ft to 3pt

All the stats I posted are from 15ft and beyond. And I'm not sure where you get your numbers but Lillard only took 22 shots from 10-14ft. He took 296 shots from 15-29ft. The majority of his shots were within 5ft... they were lay up attempts, that's nothing to do with shooting. That's what's skewing your %, it's not 13% of his jump shots, it's 13% of his FGA.

Also why would it matter how many shots he attempted from any distance? It's about quality not quantity. Efficiency not volume.




Irving may improve and surpass Lillard who you apparently think is going to regress after just two seasons (lol). But right now, Lillard is the better shooter and it is NOT close. Not at all.

Goose17
10-02-2014, 03:48 PM
PG shooting tiers:

1: Curry / Nash / Calderon

2: Irving / Lillard / CP3 (best mid-range shooter alongside TP and Curry) / Dragic (small sample size being here, but I think he stays)

3: Lawson / Lowry / Parker / Deron Williams, etc

4: Westbrook / Rose, etc

5: Rubio

6: Rondo

Irving belongs in Tier 4, maybe tier 3 at best.

Goose17
10-02-2014, 04:02 PM
2012-13 Blazers (33-49, 15th in offrtg);

Lillard(rookie) - Wes - Batum - Aldridge - Hickson

Coach: Stotts


2013-14 Blazers (54-28, 2nd in offrtg);

Lillard (with a year of pro ball under his belt) - Wes - Batum - Aldridge - Lopez

Coach: Stotts



What made them go from a weak offensive team to "elite" in that one season? The addition of Lopez? Could it have been Lillard progressing so well and elevating his game? Is it all on Aldridge? I wonder, was Lillards supporting cast weak in 2012-13 and now that exact same cast minus Hickson is considered elite?

Holes in your argument bro.

There's no doubt that's a nice lineup offensively and much better than Cleveland, but why do you blame Kyries lack of a supporting cast for his bad numbers when Lillards supporting cast in the season you want to compare them in, finished with the exact same record?

What about guys like Love, Davis, Dragic, Lawson etc... they put up good numbers with a non-elite supporting cast. Why sin't Irving held to the same standard? His down year is due to his team mates and not him? How much of a down year was it really?

2-ONE-5
10-02-2014, 04:14 PM
PG shooting tiers:

1: Curry / Nash / Calderon

2: Irving / Lillard / CP3 (best mid-range shooter alongside TP and Curry) / Dragic (small sample size being here, but I think he stays)

3: Lawson / Lowry / Parker / Deron Williams, etc

4: Westbrook / Rose, etc

5: Rubio

6: Rondo

rubio and rondo are among the worst shooting PG's

tredigs
10-02-2014, 04:19 PM
.


Shooting during the flow of a game and shooting a stand still free throw with no defender in your face and all the time in the world are not the same. A bad shooter can still hit their free throws. It's not the same as coming off a screen and hitting the catch and shoot or coming off the screen as the handler and knocking it down. It's not the same as shooting off the bounce with a defender closing in on you or hitting the step back. There is a great amount of psychology involved in free throw shotting but I don't rate it as a measure of a players overall shooting ability.
We disagree here. I absolutely value a players ability at the line. It's on average 1/4th of a players points (for elite players often times more), and it's 100% dictated on your ability to hit a set 15 foot shot. It's relevant. And it's not coincidence that the leagues best shooters (Calderon, Nash, Curry, Dirk, Korver, etc) are often the best FT shooters as well. It's much less common that you find the opposite. IE it is a great indicator of shooting ability outside of how your teammates/coach factor into the types of shots you are seeing within the running clock.




So, can we agree that Lillard was the better shooter this season?

Yes, he had a better shooting year last season, which is where you're getting all your #'s from. I've already stated that.


And how is comparing Lillards rookie season to Irvings Sophomore season more fair than what I did? Or even comparing Irvings 3 years to Lillards 2? The best way to tell who the best shooter is right now is to look at right now.

And if Lillards numbers are a little lower than Kyrie's, does he get the same excuse? A bad team. Because Portland finished 33-49 the exact same record Cleveland finished with this year... or were Portland still "elite" offensively?
Because I value the larger sample size. Do you have reason to believe that Kyrie will continue to shoot at his career lows from age 22 on, despite already showing he is better than that?



What about great players on other bad teams that put up great numbers... why should Irving be held to a different standard?

I'm not disregarding his prior season, I'm just not ignoring his proven past either.



All the stats I posted are from 15ft and beyond. And I'm not sure where you get your numbers but Lillard only took 22 shots from 10-14ft. He took 296 shots from 15-29ft. The majority of his shots were within 5ft... they were lay up attempts, that's nothing to do with shooting. That's what's skewing your %, it's not 13% of his jump shots, it's 13% of his FGA.

Also why would it matter how many shots he attempted from any distance? It's about quality not quantity. Efficiency not volume.


I'm well aware that it is 13% of his total attempts (and it's ~70 shots from 10-16 and another ~170 from 16 to 3 pt... I'm using bbref). My point is that this is not a very large sample size to use as a 1 year barometer, and that how a teams offense is constructed as well as how good of floor spacers you play along with can drastically effect the FG%. Hence the jumps up and down for the two year to year.


Irving may improve and surpass Lillard who you apparently think is going to regress after just two seasons (lol). But right now, Lillard is the better shooter and it is NOT close. Not at all.
In what way did I say I think Lillard would regress? Now you're just making *** up.

Kyrie would not need to "improve" per say to reach Lillard's current level of shooting, he just needs to reclaim the level that he was already playing at at 19 years old in the NBA (while Lillard was a Sophomore at Weber State). I'm predicting that alongside Love and Bron, that and more will happen and that he ends up with better shooting #'s than Lillard across the board. It seems that you're insinuating that he maintains the level of his worst season and that those #'s are all that are relevant.

We will see who ends up being right.

Goose17
10-02-2014, 04:26 PM
Do you have reason to believe that Kyrie will continue to shoot at his career lows from age 22 on, despite already showing he is better than that?


Do you have reason to believe Lillard won't shoot even better and continue to improve? Why do you want to compare Irving in his second year to Lillard in his first? How is that fair?



It seems that you're insinuating that he maintains the level of his worst season and that those #'s are all that are relevant.


When discussing who is the better shooter right now all that is relevant is RIGHT NOW. I'm not going to compare Jason Kapono from 2007 to prove he's a better shooter than Lillard when right now he clearly isn't.

I'm not going to compare Lillard now to Curry's rookie year.


You compare now to now. We're living in the present, talking about the present. Not the past.





We will see who ends up being right.

Indeed we will.


...I wonder how much Lillards % would increase with Love and Lebron on his team? LOL.

valade16
10-02-2014, 04:51 PM
Because I value the larger sample size. Do you have reason to believe that Kyrie will continue to shoot at his career lows from age 22 on, despite already showing he is better than that?

Do you have reason to believe Lillard will regress to the %'s he shot his rookie season?

I think the most reasonable assumption given the same 'elite offensive core' you mentioned is that he sees his #'s stats stay at the levels he displayed his 2nd year if not get better than that.

tredigs
10-02-2014, 05:22 PM
Do you have reason to believe Lillard won't shoot even better and continue to improve? Why do you want to compare Irving in his second year to Lillard in his first? How is that fair?




When discussing who is the better shooter right now all that is relevant is RIGHT NOW. I'm not going to compare Jason Kapono from 2007 to prove he's a better shooter than Lillard when right now he clearly isn't.

I'm not going to compare Lillard now to Curry's rookie year.


You compare now to now. We're living in the present, talking about the present. Not the past.





Indeed we will.


...I wonder how much Lillards % would increase with Love and Lebron on his team? LOL.
Kyrie has yet to reach his prime. He is not injured. To ignore his past (a whopping 2 seasons ago) production and assume he won't reach it again is both illogical and honestly hilarious (as in, your dumb point on Kapono from 07 to now). He will - almost with 100% certainty - not only reach that level as a shooter, but improve on it as he develops alongside this elite cast.

His shooting looked pretty damn elite in FIBA by the way (if we want RIGHT NOW... there's your right now), a team he coincidentally was chosen for over D. Lillard.

And for the 3rd time, I am not discounting Lillard one bit in saying he will regress, or simply comparing Kyrie's rookie season to Lillard's. What I am saying is that if you throw out last year for Kyrie (a season in which, again, at Kyrie's age Lillard was still at Weber State), the two are a complete wash as shooters. And even if you don't and simply include everything, their career %'s are very, very similar.

So, as I already stated 3 times: Last year as shooters Lillard > Kyrie. Overall - looking at their whole resume' as shooters - Lillard = Kyrie. Going forward I predict, Kyrie => Lillard.

I'm done with this stupid debate, I just find it funny that you two think it's an abomination to include the two in the same tier as shooters - and I provided the evidence/theory as to why I say that. Moving on --

IndyRealist
10-02-2014, 05:33 PM
....I knew Portland was going to be good, and give teams fits last year. And it has nothing to do with the reasons people credit.

Goose17
10-02-2014, 05:36 PM
Kyrie has yet to reach his prime. He is not injured. To ignore his past (a whopping 2 seasons ago) production and assume he won't reach it again is both illogical and honestly hilarious (as in, your dumb point on Kapono from 07 to now). He will - almost with 100% certainty - not only reach that level as a shooter, but improve on it as he develops alongside this elite cast.


Question, his cast... was it elite in his first two years? No? It was crappy right? Right. So why is it that you think he shot so much better in those first two years despite of the crappy cast and now suddenly he's shooting poorly it's because of his team mates?

And you can't know for sure that he will go back to shooting how he was (which still isn't as good as Lillard anyway). We're talking about right now so we can only deal with right now.



His shooting looked pretty damn elite in FIBA by the way (if we want RIGHT NOW... there's your right now), a team he coincidentally was chosen for over D. Lillard.


I guess that was due to the cast :laugh:

or the fact they were playing with shorter 3 point lines and against opponents of a much lower level?





So, as I already stated 3 times: Last year as shooters Lillard > Kyrie. Overall - looking at their whole resume' as shooters - Lillard = Kyrie. Going forward I predict, Kyrie => Lillard.

I'm done with this stupid debate, I just find it funny that you two think it's an abomination to include the two in the same tier as shooters - and I provided the evidence/theory as to why I say that. Moving on --

You provided evidence so we should just agree? What about all the evidence we provided?

Sorry, but they're not close. And if Irving needs the best player in the world on his team to make it close, that says more for Lillard than it does for Irving.


Best just to agree to disagree I suppose.

Goose17
10-02-2014, 05:37 PM
....I knew Portland was going to be good, and give teams fits last year. And it has nothing to do with the reasons people credit.

Link to where you predicted it or you're talking B.S

Nobody called it.

tredigs
10-02-2014, 06:21 PM
Question, his cast... was it elite in his first two years? No? It was crappy right? Right. So why is it that you think he shot so much better in those first two years despite of the crappy cast and now suddenly he's shooting poorly it's because of his team mates?

And you can't know for sure that he will go back to shooting how he was (which still isn't as good as Lillard anyway). We're talking about right now so we can only deal with right now.



I guess that was due to the cast :laugh:

or the fact they were playing with shorter 3 point lines and against opponents of a much lower level?




You provided evidence so we should just agree? What about all the evidence we provided?

Sorry, but they're not close. And if Irving needs the best player in the world on his team to make it close, that says more for Lillard than it does for Irving.


Best just to agree to disagree I suppose.

Sigh. Fine, one last post to help clarify my points that you can't seem to grasp.

Neither you, me or Pop likely have the exact answer as to why his #'s fell off as a spot up shooter. From volume pull-up shooters (2+ a game), he ranked #1 in the NBA from 3 in efficiency. He just sucked off the ball. Part of the reason in general is that the better your offense is as a whole, the easier shots become for each player. You get passes in better rhythm, at better spots, and with more space. Portland's offense was elite (it was elite with Lillard on the court, and elite with Lillard off the court), Irving's offense was hellatious (both from a coaching standpoint and a cast standpoint). Simply put, that matters. Was it bad two years ago as well when he put up elite shooting #'s? Yes, it was. Which goes further to show how good of a shooter he can be and how good of a shooter we will likely see from him now that he does in fact have elite offensive teammates. The pull up #'s are probably a better indicator of shooting ability though, seeing as in both scenarios you are likely being guarded at a similar depth by similar players. With catch and shoot, a ton of other team orientated factors get involved.

So, in short we're saying (see: you're saying) the guy who shoots 43% from 10-16 ft, 41% from 16 ft to 3, and 38% from 3 in his career is "not even close" to the guy who shoots 42% from 10-16 ft (39% last year), 43% from 16 ft to 3 (44% last year) and 38% from 3 (39% last year)? At the stripe, both are 86%.

Your argument being that because Lillard was better shooting the ball within his elite O last season, that puts him in a tier that is well beyond the likes of the guy who has put up similar #'s the rest of his.

OK -- roger that.

prodigy
10-02-2014, 07:07 PM
....I knew Portland was going to be good, and give teams fits last year. And it has nothing to do with the reasons people credit.

Link to where you predicted it or you're talking B.S

Nobody called it.

I don't think anyone thought portland was going to be bad. They played better then I thought but they have good players. Nice how you ignore all my points lol.

Jamiecballer
10-02-2014, 07:17 PM
....I knew Portland was going to be good, and give teams fits last year. And it has nothing to do with the reasons people credit.
+1

MisterRoddy
10-03-2014, 01:30 AM
The fact that Goose17 doesn't think Irving is even in the Top 10 PGs just tells you how much his opinion is worth. Not worth arguing with himů..at all.

valade16
10-03-2014, 09:10 AM
Kyrie has yet to reach his prime. He is not injured. To ignore his past (a whopping 2 seasons ago) production and assume he won't reach it again is both illogical and honestly hilarious (as in, your dumb point on Kapono from 07 to now). He will - almost with 100% certainty - not only reach that level as a shooter, but improve on it as he develops alongside this elite cast.

It seems that your entire point is "I think Irving's shot will improve and Lillard's won't".

valade16
10-03-2014, 09:14 AM
Sigh. Fine, one last post to help clarify my points that you can't seem to grasp.

Neither you, me or Pop likely have the exact answer as to why his #'s fell off as a spot up shooter. From volume pull-up shooters (2+ a game), he ranked #1 in the NBA from 3 in efficiency. He just sucked off the ball. Part of the reason in general is that the better your offense is as a whole, the easier shots become for each player. You get passes in better rhythm, at better spots, and with more space. Portland's offense was elite (it was elite with Lillard on the court, and elite with Lillard off the court), Irving's offense was hellatious (both from a coaching standpoint and a cast standpoint). Simply put, that matters. Was it bad two years ago as well when he put up elite shooting #'s? Yes, it was. Which goes further to show how good of a shooter he can be and how good of a shooter we will likely see from him now that he does in fact have elite offensive teammates. The pull up #'s are probably a better indicator of shooting ability though, seeing as in both scenarios you are likely being guarded at a similar depth by similar players. With catch and shoot, a ton of other team orientated factors get involved.

So, in short we're saying (see: you're saying) the guy who shoots 43% from 10-16 ft, 41% from 16 ft to 3, and 38% from 3 in his career is "not even close" to the guy who shoots 42% from 10-16 ft (39% last year), 43% from 16 ft to 3 (44% last year) and 38% from 3 (39% last year)? At the stripe, both are 86%.

Your argument being that because Lillard was better shooting the ball within his elite O last season, that puts him in a tier that is well beyond the likes of the guy who has put up similar #'s the rest of his.

OK -- roger that.

You're entire argument is predicated on deflating Lillard's shooting #'s by including his rookie season. What makes you think Lillard's #'s will be anywhere near his rookie seasons and not what he did in his 2nd season?

If we put a big asterisk next to Kyrie's last season why do you not put an asterisk next to Lillard's rookie season?

The double standard with which you are using to frame your argument really shows how biased you are towards thinking Kyrie is better.

prodigy
10-03-2014, 03:09 PM
Kyrie has yet to reach his prime. He is not injured. To ignore his past (a whopping 2 seasons ago) production and assume he won't reach it again is both illogical and honestly hilarious (as in, your dumb point on Kapono from 07 to now). He will - almost with 100% certainty - not only reach that level as a shooter, but improve on it as he develops alongside this elite cast.

It seems that your entire point is "I think Irving's shot will improve and Lillard's won't".

Most young guys with the talent of Irving will improve. But look at kyries career. He's always been a Pretty darn good shooter. This past season he faced double and triple teams every time he touched the ball something lillard has never dealt with. Also the poor players around won't help the cause either. Irving's shot selection wasn't the best either, but not trusting teammates is a big reason for that.

Your comparing lillards best season to Irving's worse lol, and its still close. One again though I love both players and would gladly take either on my team.

valade16
10-03-2014, 03:22 PM
Most young guys with the talent of Irving will improve. But look at kyries career. He's always been a Pretty darn good shooter. This past season he faced double and triple teams every time he touched the ball something lillard has never dealt with. Also the poor players around won't help the cause either. Irving's shot selection wasn't the best either, but not trusting teammates is a big reason for that.

Your comparing lillards best season to Irving's worse lol, and its still close. One again though I love both players and would gladly take either on my team.

It's actually not close, Lillard last year smoked Irving in shooting. Yes, I know about all the problems Irving had and those are valid explanations for why his shooting regressed.

My main problem is with the double-standard argument you are using. Take your first bolded:

Most young guys with the talent of Irving will improve.

How is that a true statement about Irving and not Lillard? If we assume Irving's shooting will improve simply because he's A). Young and B). Talented, then we have to assume Lillard's shooting will likewise improve because he is also both those things...

prodigy
10-03-2014, 04:58 PM
Most young guys with the talent of Irving will improve. But look at kyries career. He's always been a Pretty darn good shooter. This past season he faced double and triple teams every time he touched the ball something lillard has never dealt with. Also the poor players around won't help the cause either. Irving's shot selection wasn't the best either, but not trusting teammates is a big reason for that.

Your comparing lillards best season to Irving's worse lol, and its still close. One again though I love both players and would gladly take either on my team.

It's actually not close, Lillard last year smoked Irving in shooting. Yes, I know about all the problems Irving had and those are valid explanations for why his shooting regressed.

My main problem is with the double-standard argument you are using. Take your first bolded:

Most young guys with the talent of Irving will improve.

How is that a true statement about Irving and not Lillard? If we assume Irving's shooting will improve simply because he's A). Young and B). Talented, then we have to assume Lillard's shooting will likewise improve because he is also both those things...

Because I was talking about Irving not lillard lol. Ur whole argument is you saying how much better lillard is then Irving. My main point is u are comparing a guys best season to a guys worse season lol. Also a guy in irving who was the main focus on the cavs and other teams game planned for much more then lillard. But not anymore, lillard will be game planned for big time now. I expect him to be just fine though.

I def expect lillard to get better. But lillard isn't the one getting completely due valued here.

Knicks Boogie
10-03-2014, 06:14 PM
If Westbrook, Wall and K.Irving aren't in your top 5....... just Stop

mightybosstone
10-04-2014, 05:54 PM
If Westbrook, Wall and K.Irving aren't in your top 5....... just Stop

If Irving and Wall are BOTH in your top five, you should probably stop. I don't have either guy in my top five, much less both of them. Wall is at least debatable, but what has Irving done at this point to deserve being placed ahead of guys like Parker, Dragic, Lillard, Lowry and Conley?

MisterRoddy
10-05-2014, 10:06 PM
If Irving and Wall are BOTH in your top five, you should probably stop. I don't have either guy in my top five, much less both of them. Wall is at least debatable, but what has Irving done at this point to deserve being placed ahead of guys like Parker, Dragic, Lillard, Lowry and Conley?

Uhhh being more talented than every one of them?

It astounds me that people here constantly confuse the difference between talent and team accomplishments. Kyrie is easily one of the Top 5 most talented PGs in the game.

tredigs
10-05-2014, 10:10 PM
Uhhh being more talented than every one of them?

It astounds me that people here constantly confuse the difference between talent and team accomplishments. Kyrie is easily one of the Top 5 most talented PGs in the game.
How about confusing talent with actual production? Because at no point in Kyrie's career has he consistently produced at a top 5 level offensively, let alone when you factor in his bottom of the barrel defense.

MisterRoddy
10-05-2014, 11:31 PM
How about confusing talent with actual production? Because at no point in Kyrie's career has he consistently produced at a top 5 level offensively, let alone when you factor in his bottom of the barrel defense.

Actually Kyrie Irving has averaged 5th in the NBA in PER among PGs since he came into the league. His EWA has also been going upward since he came into the league as he was 6th among PGs last year.

Obviously you can bring up this stat and that stat to try and refute it but legitimate statistics like PER and EWA gives you a solid idea of how he has performed. (Fringe Top 5)

When you add that production (in a crappy offense with no help) and his talent, it's very easy to believe that he is a Top 5 NBA point guard. You are wrong to be so dismissive.

Munkeysuit
10-05-2014, 11:46 PM
1. Cp3
2. Curry
3. Parker
4. Kyrie
5. Lillard
6. Westbrook
7. Rondo
8. Lowry
9. Wall
10. Rose

No particular order
Dragic
Lawson
Jrue
Kemba
Ebled
I thomas
D Will
Rubio
Conley

FlashBolt
10-06-2014, 11:41 PM
1. Cp3
2. Curry
3. Parker
4. Kyrie
5. Lillard
6. Westbrook
7. Rondo
8. Lowry
9. Wall
10. Rose

No particular order
Dragic
Lawson
Jrue
Kemba
Ebled
I thomas
D Will
Rubio
Conley

Wtf..Kyrie over Westbrook is just absurd. Westbrook is easily the top 3 PG.

IndyRealist
10-07-2014, 05:52 PM
Actually Kyrie Irving has averaged 5th in the NBA in PER among PGs since he came into the league. His EWA has also been going upward since he came into the league as he was 6th among PGs last year.

Obviously you can bring up this stat and that stat to try and refute it but legitimate statistics like PER and EWA gives you a solid idea of how he has performed. (Fringe Top 5)When you add that production (in a crappy offense with no help) and his talent, it's very easy to believe that he is a Top 5 NBA point guard. You are wrong to be so dismissive.

I just want to point out that he said this.

prodigy
10-08-2014, 04:33 PM
Actually Kyrie Irving has averaged 5th in the NBA in PER among PGs since he came into the league. His EWA has also been going upward since he came into the league as he was 6th among PGs last year.

Obviously you can bring up this stat and that stat to try and refute it but legitimate statistics like PER and EWA gives you a solid idea of how he has performed. (Fringe Top 5)When you add that production (in a crappy offense with no help) and his talent, it's very easy to believe that he is a Top 5 NBA point guard. You are wrong to be so dismissive.

I just want to point out that he said this.

If we talking about just offense then yes Irving top 5. Career numbers stress that. But his lack of defense it what drops him in my book. But I think he will get better there no question. But needs to prove it first. Top 10 IMO

valade16
10-08-2014, 04:41 PM
Somebody should go into the All-shooting team thread and tell literally everyone who has thus far included Lillard and not Kyrie that Kyrie is in fact the superior shooter, since nobody seems to realize it...

prodigy
10-08-2014, 04:58 PM
Somebody should go into the All-shooting team thread and tell literally everyone who has thus far included Lillard and not Kyrie that Kyrie is in fact the superior shooter, since nobody seems to realize it...

Last season kyrie shouldn't be on a list. You clearly take stuff out of contexts if you are talking about me. Not sure what everyone else is saying. This thread was more so about overall player not just shooting. Also people comparing a players worse season to a players best season.

This season kyrie will most likely have much better shooting numbers with the help he will have. No more triple teams