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Lionel20
09-22-2014, 11:31 PM
*Age-Factor included
*Regular Season/Post Season stats included
*minimum of 800 games (Reg/PS)
*All Player stats adjusted for League Quality (LQ)
*Est. for players pre-1978 based on REBS/AST/FT%/FG%/PositionAVGs
*All players careers translated to begin in 1990 (basis) (pace-adjusted)
*Usage Rate, and MVP shares (eye test) factored in
*Player Value = a combination of Alternate Win Score, VORP, and a calculated Defensive Rating (DWS, Drtg, Defensive Teams, etc.)


# Name Player Value
1 Michael Jordan 34.26
2 W Chamebrlain 32.04
3 LeBron James 31.66
4 K Abdul-Jabbar 31.15
5 Tim Duncan 30.73
6 Hakeem Olajuwon 30.70
7 S O'Neal 30.12
8 Karl Malone 30.00
9 David Robinson 29.97
10 Kobe Bryant 29.48
11 Larry Bird 29.46
12 Magic Johnson 29.11
13 Kevin Garnett 28.90
14 Charles Barkley 28.45
15 Dwyane Wade 27.86
16 John Stockton 27.85
17 Julius Erving 27.79
18 Moses Malone 27.78
19 Artis Gilmore 27.78
20 Bill Russell 27.76
21 Clyde Drexler 27.33
22 Dwight Howard 27.13
23 Jerry West 27.12
24 Patrick Ewing 26.95
25 Chris Paul 26.91
26 Oscar Robertson 26.84
27 Bob Lanier 26.76
28 Dirk Nowitzki 26.68
29 Kevin Durant 26.57
30 Scottie Pippen 26.56
31 Dave Cowens 26.48
32 Tracy McGrady 26.40
33 Elvin Hayes 26.23
34 Jason Kidd 26.20
35 Chris Mullin 26.17
36 Allen Iverson 26.16
37 D Wilkins 26.11
38 Chris Webber 26.06
39 Walt Frazier 25.98
40 Alonzo Mourning 25.95
41 Pau Gasol 25.93
42 Gary Payton 25.91
43 Elgin Baylor 25.88
44 Rick Barry 25.75
45 Bob McAdoo 25.72
46 Reggie Miller 25.68
47 Alex English 25.67
48 Dikembe Mutombo 25.60
49 Elton Brand 25.57
50 Bobby Jones 25.54
51 Dan Issel 25.52
52 Steve Nash 25.52
53 Kevin Johnson 25.51
54 Manu Ginobili 25.48
55 Bill Walton 25.47
56 Shawn Marion 25.47
57 Robert Parish 25.46
58 Sidney Moncrief 25.45
59 Paul Pierce 25.42
60 Ben Wallace 25.36
61 Jerry Lucas 25.36
62 Isiah Thomas 25.34
63 Tim Hardaway 25.28
64 Amar'e Stoudemire 25.28
65 Kevin McHale 25.27
66 Chris Bosh 25.24
67 Al Jefferson 25.24
68 Vince Carter 25.24
69 Larry Nance 25.22
70 Walt Bellamy 25.21
71 Carmelo Anthony 25.17
72 Carlos Boozer 25.13
73 Ray Allen 25.12
74 David Thompson 25.11
75 Russell Westbrook 25.09
76 Detlef Schrempf 25.08
77 Mark Price 25.07
78 Shawn Kemp 25.03
79 Yao Ming 25.00
80 Vlade Divac 24.97
81 Nate Thurmond 24.94
82 John Havlicek 24.92
83 Marques Johnson 24.84
84 Bob Pettit 24.73
85 Horace Grant 24.73
86 Mitch Richmond 24.72
87 Adrian Dantley 24.70
88 Fat Lever 24.67
89 George Gervin 24.66
90 Terry Cummings 24.61
91 James Worthy 24.60
92 Brad Daugherty 24.58
93 Mark Jackson 24.56
94 Spencer Haywood 24.53
95 Gus Williams 24.49
96 Jack Sikma 24.47
97 Grant Hill 24.46
98 Walter Davis 24.42
99 Bob Cousy 24.39
100 Rasheed Wallace 24.36

DallasTrilla23
09-22-2014, 11:40 PM
Shawn Marion tho?

FlashBolt
09-23-2014, 12:42 AM
This list is ********. Shawn Marion over Dirk says enough..

Hotone1401
09-23-2014, 01:00 AM
Worst list I've ever seen, really.

ThuglifeJ
09-23-2014, 01:20 AM
This is interesting...but you probably should have looked over your list before publishing so you could take out Shawn Marion and Dwight Howard.

just sayin

JasonJohnHorn
09-23-2014, 07:45 AM
FRazier over the Big O? And Howard over Stockton Kobe, Malone, Malone, and Russsell? And Dr. J? And Garnett?

NYKalltheway
09-23-2014, 08:14 AM
How did you calculate/adjust League Quality?

Heatcheck
09-23-2014, 08:36 AM
yeah this is very interesting....you obviously put a lot of work into this, and I tip my hat off to you, good work.

I don't agree with some of it, but then again, when does everybody agree with everything.
The concept of league quality is kind of subjective. some people say the 80s was the toughest, I disagree, and feel like the defense was crap, and that theres a difference between good defense and hard fouls. although I cede that it was much tougher to finish at the rim. I feel like it was the early to mid 90s was great. some say the whole of the 90s was ********. so its difficult to peg a number on league quality.

hard to argue with the top 6. arits Gilmore is very interesting. and I think id take almost everyone under Howard, before howard escept maybe miller, jones, marion, cowens and nique.

Lionel20
09-23-2014, 10:51 AM
Shawn Marion tho?

Ok, I think in most metrics defense is undervalued. Marion is a great two-way player.


Name MP FG% 3P% FT% ORB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
Marion 36 0.496 0.324 0.803 2.7 8.8 2.1 1.7 1.1 2.0 2.2 14.97


Aren't many teams in history a player like this wouldn't make much better. He's solid in every category.

Lionel20
09-23-2014, 11:01 AM
Worst list I've ever seen, really.

Of course it is to you.. when you're ready to debate a player(s), I'll be able to take you more seriously.

Lionel20
09-23-2014, 11:32 AM
FRazier over the Big O? And Howard over Stockton Kobe, Malone, Malone, and Russsell? And Dr. J? And Garnett?

The age factor has Garnett #12, Stockton #14, Dr. J #16, Howard #21. Now let's talk Oscar Roberston, the translation into in 90s covers the pace-adjustment, additionally there was less quality competition at guard in the 60s. Roberston still a top player, declines, especially in assist and rebounds.

Actual:

Rebs = 7.5
Ast = 9.5

Adjusted

Rebs = 5.4
Ast = 6.7

I do think I may need to adjust his TOV estimate. It's high @ 3.5 per game.

Playmaker12
09-23-2014, 11:55 AM
This list is whack I can make a better one in a few minutes right here.

Jordan
Russell
Magic
Bird
Olajuwon
Shaq
Robinson
Ewing
Moses
Robertson
Kareem
Barkley
Julius
Duncan
Chamberlain
Malone
Pippen
Isiah
Drexler
Nowitzki
Wilkins
Bryant
Garnett
McHale
Hayes
Kemp
Worthy
S. Jones
Havlicek
Frazier
Barry
James
Wade
Stockton
Parish
D. Thompson
Miller
West
Webber
K. Johnson
Archibald
D. Johnson
Walton
Mourning
L. Johnson
Rodman
T. Parker
A. Mason
Payton
Mullin
H. Grant
Nance

Lionel20
09-23-2014, 11:58 AM
This is interesting...but you probably should have looked over your list before publishing so you could take out Shawn Marion and Dwight Howard.

just sayin

I'm aware of what I'm doing. This is the initial list, hopefully by posting it for peer review I can fine tune it if need be.

Lionel20
09-23-2014, 12:03 PM
This list is whack I can make a better one in a few minutes right here.

Jordan
Russell
Magic
Bird
Olajuwon
Shaq
Robinson
Ewing
Moses
Robertson
Kareem
Barkley
Julius
Duncan
Chamberlain
Malone
Pippen
Isiah
Drexler
Nowitzki
Wilkins
Bryant
Garnett
McHale
Hayes
Kemp
Worthy
S. Jones
Havlicek
Frazier
Barry
James
Wade
Stockton
Parish
D. Thompson
Miller
West
Webber
K. Johnson
Archibald
D. Johnson
Walton
Mourning
L. Johnson
Rodman
T. Parker
A. Mason
Payton
Mullin
H. Grant
Nance

Sure dude, what's your criteria? Is that Anthony Mason on your list? May I suggest that you omit the New York Knick factor.

I have Tracy McGrady in Mason's 46th spot.

Playmaker12
09-23-2014, 12:08 PM
The age factor has Garnett #12, Stockton #14, Dr. J #16, Howard #21. Now let's talk Oscar Roberston, the translation into in 90s covers the pace-adjustment, additionally there was less quality competition at guard in the 60s. Roberston still a top player, declines, especially in assist and rebounds.

Actual:

Rebs = 7.5
Ast = 9.5

Adjusted

Rebs = 5.4
Ast = 6.7

I do think I may need to adjust his TOV estimate. It's high @ 3.5 per game.

One problem. You're factoring in "past prime stats" with Robertson against all prime stats for Howard. Wait about 8 years on Howard his averages should go way lower.

Also another problem. Assists in a way were actually harder to get back then. Because the FG% was basically 43% for everyone and certain teams even had chuckers that would run up and shoot the first shot for theirselves. Don't think Robertsons teams did that at all but still his team mates were roughly 44% shooters. Give him some 55% shooters and his assist would be 10 still for his career. I've seen him play he really was a good passer.

Playmaker12
09-23-2014, 12:15 PM
Sure dude, what's your criteria? Is that Anthony Mason on your list? May I suggest that you omit the New York Knick factor.

I have Tracy McGrady in Mason's 46th spot.

How many playoff games did Tracy Mcgrady win?

When people look back over the history of the league even in the future, you'll look back and see that not many guys do the things that Antony Mason did. He's Rick Mahorn with really good offense and is a point forward. He litterally started at every single position in the NBA. Cowens for a week litterally started him at pg and then a few weeks later was starting him at center.

I know the Knicks were Ewing's team but Mason was a big part of why they were such contenders and went so far in the playoffs each year.

(Mason has 1-2 rings if not for MJ and Pippen, that's not even debatable)

Mason made plenty of HUGE plays in the Playoffs over the years and especially with the Knicks in that pyhsical East. He was 6'7-6'8 with a 7'3 wingspan at 255 all muscle and had fundamentals and played good defense.

Lionel20
09-23-2014, 12:47 PM
One problem. You're factoring in "past prime stats" with Robertson against all prime stats for Howard. Wait about 8 years on Howard his averages should go way lower.

Also another problem. Assists in a way were actually harder to get back then. Because the FG% was basically 43% for everyone and certain teams even had chuckers that would run up and shoot the first shot for theirselves. Don't think Robertsons teams did that at all but still his team mates were roughly 44% shooters. Give him some 55% shooters and his assist would be 10 still for his career. I've seen him play he really was a good passer.

Ok, good points.

The age factor I used gives older players an added value regressing them to an extent back to their peaks. The age factor levels the player field for comparisons btw older and younger players.

Your other argument explaining the FG% differentials are accurate but remember 60s teams were averaging about 20 more FGA per game than teams of the 1990s. The pace was higher, as a result the league average APG during Roberston's career (1960-74) was actually slightly higher.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

The main factor is that I may have estimate it too low, but Roberston played against weak G competition in the 60s relatively speaking.. the 60s was more Center heavy than most people realize.

Lionel20
09-23-2014, 12:51 PM
How many playoff games did Tracy Mcgrady win?

When people look back over the history of the league even in the future, you'll look back and see that not many guys do the things that Antony Mason did. He's Rick Mahorn with really good offense and is a point forward. He litterally started at every single position in the NBA. Cowens for a week litterally started him at pg and then a few weeks later was starting him at center.

I know the Knicks were Ewing's team but Mason was a big part of why they were such contenders and went so far in the playoffs each year.

(Mason has 1-2 rings if not for MJ and Pippen, that's not even debatable)

Mason made plenty of HUGE plays in the Playoffs over the years and especially with the Knicks in that pyhsical East. He was 6'7-6'8 with a 7'3 wingspan at 255 all muscle and had fundamentals and played good defense.

I just don't see any category regular season or playoffs were Mason was consistently very good.

Playmaker12
09-23-2014, 01:04 PM
I just don't see any category regular season or playoffs were Mason was consistently very good.

not all of a players game can be messured with stats. A lot of things players do don't show up on stat sheets.

Mason was a huge impact player and probably the second reason the Knicks were legitimate contenders all those years.

Lionel20
09-23-2014, 01:45 PM
not all of a players game can be messured with stats. A lot of things players do don't show up on stat sheets.

Mason was a huge impact player and probably the second reason the Knicks were legitimate contenders all those years.

Can you prove that, or quantify it somehow? I wish there was a plus/minus available for back then

Lionel20
09-23-2014, 02:17 PM
For example there is no stat for setting a screen, or helping out on defense, or drawing a double team on the low block. It's just something you have to watch and understand for yourself.

I could go with X. McDaniel in this range as well.

I used my own defensive calculations, heavily based on Defensive Wins Shares, Defensive ratings, Defensive awards even, etc. Extending my ratings somewhat beyond box score stats. These are some outcomes: (100=average)


Name Defense Value
1 Bill Russell 135
2 Wilt Chamberlain 126
3 Hakeem Olajuwon 124
4 Tim Duncan 124
5 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 122
6 Ben Wallace 121
7 David Robinson 119
8 Dwight Howard 119
9 Kevin Garnett 118
10 Dikembe Mutumbo 118
11 LeBron James 118
12 Artis Gilmore 116
13 John Havlicek 116
14 Dennis Rodman 115
15 Michael Jordan 113
16 Patrick Ewing 113
17 Dave DeBusschere 113
18 Bobby Jones 113
19 Scottie Pippen 113
20 Nate Thurmond 111
21 Shaquille O'Neal 110
22 Alonzo Mourning 110
23 Gary Payton 110
24 Kobe Bryant 110
25 Buck Williams 109
26 Elvin Hayes 108
27 Sidney Moncrief 108
28 Walt Frazier 108
29 Julius Erving 108
30 Dave Cowens 107
31 Jason Kidd 107
32 Dennis Johnson 107
33 Dwayne Wade 107
34 Wes Unseld 107
35 Norm Van Lier 107
36 Jerry West 107
37 Karl Malone 107
38 Michael Cooper 107
39 Joe Dumars 106
40 Maurice Cheeks 105
41 JoJo White 104
42 Larry Bird 104
43 John Stockton 104
44 Alvin Roberston 104
45 Slater Martin 104
46 Fat Lever 103
47 Chris Paul 103
48 Bill Sharman 103
49 Shawn Marion 102
50 Isiah Thomas 102
51 Elgin Baylor 101
52 Billy Cunningham 101
53 Lenny Wilkens 101
54 Grant Hill 101
55 George McGinnis 100
56 Willis Reed 100
57 Marques Johnson 100
58 Mitch Richmond 100
59 Chauncey Billups 100
60 Hal Greer 100
61 Magic Johnson 100
62 Gus Williams 99
63 Walter Davis 99
64 Russell Westbrook 99
65 Bob Lanier 99
66 Jermaine O'Neal 99
67 Kevin McHale 99
68 Clyde Drexler 98
69 Paul Pierce 98
70 Allen Iverson 98
71 Shawn Kemp 98
72 James Worthy 98
73 Horace Grant 98
74 Vince Carter 97
75 Manu Ginobili 97
76 Gus Johnson 97
77 Sam Jones 97
78 Chet Walker 96
79 Mark Aguirre 96
80 Tony Parker 96
81 Connie Hawkins 96
82 Chris Webber 96
83 George Yardley 96
84 Tim Hardaway 96
85 Lou Hudson 95
86 Jack Sikma 95
87 Larry Nance 95
88 Paul Westfal 95
89 Tommy Heinsohn 95
90 Bob Love 95
91 Chris Mullin 94
92 Ray Allen 94
93 Charlie Scott 94
94 Kevin Durant 94
95 Terry Cummings 94
96 Oscar Robertson 94
97 Tracy McGrady 94
98 Paul Arizin 94
99 Glenn Robinson 94
100 Charles Barkley 94
101 Earl Monroe 93
102 Spencer Haywood 93
103 Moses Malone 93
104 David Thompson 93
105 Deron Williams 93
106 Elton Brand 93
107 Carmelo Anthony 93
108 Cliff Hagan 93
109 Dominique Wilkins 93
110 Robert Parish 93
111 Mel Daniels 92
112 Adrian Dantley 92
113 Bob Pettit 92
114 Yao Ming 92
115 Pete Maravich 91
116 Jack Twyman 91
117 Bailey Howell 91
118 George Mikan 91
119 Chris Bosh 91
120 Bernard King 91
121 Rick Barry 91
122 Dave Bing 91
123 Pau Gasol 91
124 World B. Free 91
125 Kevin Johnson 90
126 Jerry Lucas 90
127 Dolph Schayes 90
128 Alex English 90
129 George Gervin 89
130 Tiny Archibald 89
131 Bob Cousy 89
132 Vern Mikkleson 89
133 Reggie Miller 89
134 Henry Gallatin 89
135 Neil Johnston 89
136 Ed Macauley 89
137 A'mare Stoudamire 88
138 Walt Bellamy 88
139 Dan Issel 88
140 Steve Nash 87
141 Bob McAdoo 86
142 Dirk Nowinski 86
143 Tom Chambers 85

Jeffy25
09-23-2014, 02:35 PM
Hey, you at least got respectful responses in the MLB section for your list.


Guess you didn't keep your wife? ;)

Jeffy25
09-23-2014, 02:38 PM
This list is whack I can make a better one in a few minutes right here.

Jordan
Russell
Magic
Bird
Olajuwon
Shaq
Robinson
Ewing
Moses
Robertson
Kareem
Barkley
Julius
Duncan
Chamberlain
Malone
Pippen
Isiah
Drexler
Nowitzki
Wilkins
Bryant
Garnett
McHale
Hayes
Kemp
Worthy
S. Jones
Havlicek
Frazier
Barry
James
Wade
Stockton
Parish
D. Thompson
Miller
West
Webber
K. Johnson
Archibald
D. Johnson
Walton
Mourning
L. Johnson
Rodman
T. Parker
A. Mason
Payton
Mullin
H. Grant
Nance

And how did you assess or determine your list?

Snap judgment?

What's the argument for Kareem so low?

Jeffy25
09-23-2014, 02:58 PM
How many playoff games did Tracy Mcgrady win?

When people look back over the history of the league even in the future, you'll look back and see that not many guys do the things that Antony Mason did.
Yeah, that 14.6 career PER 30,000 minutes really separates him.


88.3 Win Shares in Mason's career


McGrady, in his 30,000 minutes came up with a 22.1 PER and 97.3 WS

McGrady played the same length of time, but was clearly the better basketball player (of course, different positions).

If you want McGrady to win more playoff games, than maybe he should have had a Patrick Ewing to play with.

flea
09-23-2014, 03:09 PM
Solid list, I'm definitely a guy that favors 2 way bigs all time. I like the love that Matrix gets, but I'd probably have Nash in my own top 50. Also think Wade and Howard are too high, with Barkley too low (certainly he's above Malone IMO).

Lionel20
09-23-2014, 04:46 PM
Hey, you at least got respectful responses in the MLB section for your list.


Guess you didn't keep your wife? ;)

lol

I'm reminded every day how my sports rankings haven't paid one single bill?

Lionel20
09-23-2014, 05:00 PM
Solid list, I'm definitely a guy that favors 2 way bigs all time. I like the love that Matrix gets, but I'd probably have Nash in my own top 50. Also think Wade and Howard are too high, with Barkley too low (certainly he's above Malone IMO).

Malone's durability was likely best all-time.. Arguably his prime was btw age 32-37, which is almost unnatural


Age = WS/48
Malone

32 = .233
33 = .268 (MVP)
34 = .259
35 = .252 (MVP)
36 = .249
37 = .217

Barkley

32 = .191
33 = .224
34 = .183
35 = .215
36 = .148

Malone undoubtedly gained ground on Barkley, while Barkley was better at his peak, Malone was great much longer.

YAALREADYKNO
09-23-2014, 07:00 PM
WTF how is pippen Stockton kidd and Dwight howard better than dirk? Karl Malone and David Robinson over shaq? This list is a joke

Lionel20
09-23-2014, 07:42 PM
You do know that defense exist in basketball too. I'd argue that Dirk wouldn't have one his only championship with Chandler in the middle

Jordan/Pippen

Duncan

Shaq/Kobe

LeBron/Wade

Defense has strong value, often unaccounted for in the traditional box scores

YAALREADYKNO
09-23-2014, 08:31 PM
You do know that defense exist in basketball too. I'd argue that Dirk wouldn't have one his only championship with Chandler in the middle

Jordan/Pippen

Duncan

Shaq/Kobe

LeBron/Wade

Defense has strong value, often unaccounted for in the traditional box scores




Everyone Knows that Defense is really important and that pippen might be the greatest perimeter defensive player ever, But over Dirk. Come on lets get real

Lakers + Giants
09-23-2014, 09:41 PM
I honestly thought the 1st 5 were good, after that, not so much..

KobeTop5
09-23-2014, 10:11 PM
*Age-Factor included
*Regular Season/Post Season stats included
*minimum of 800 games (Reg/PS)
*All Player stats adjusted for League Quality (LQ)
*Est. for players pre-1978 based on REBS/AST/FT%/FG%/PositionAVGs
*All players careers translated to begin in 1990 (basis) (pace-adjusted)
*Player Value = a combination of Alternate Win Score, VORP, and a calculated Defensive Rating (DWS, Drtg, Defensive Teams, etc.)


# Name Player Value
1 Michael Jordan 28.73
2 W Chamebrlain 28.51
3 K Abdul-Jabbar 27.78
4 Hakeem Olajuwon 27.10
5 Tim Duncan 26.59
6 LeBron James 26.37
7 Artis Gilmore 26.26
8 David Robinson 25.81
9 Karl Malone 25.64
10 S O'Neal 25.09
11 Magic Johnson 24.81
12 Kevin Garnett 24.75
13 Larry Bird 24.73
14 John Stockton 24.53
15 Charles Barkley 24.45
16 Julius Erving 24.44
17 Kobe Bryant 24.18
18 Bill Russell 23.76
19 Moses Malone 23.37
20 Dwyane Wade 23.31
21 Dwight Howard 22.97
22 Clyde Drexler 22.35
23 Oscar Roberston 22.07
24 Jason Kidd 22.02
25 Jerry West 21.91
26 Scottie Pippen 21.83
27 Dirk Nowitzki 21.81
28 Bob Lanier 21.74
29 Patrick Ewing 21.70
30 Walt Frazier 21.37
31 Dave Cowens 21.30
32 Ben Wallace 21.28
33 D Mutombo 21.18
34 Elvin Hayes 21.08
35 Shawn Marion 20.98
36 Jerry Lucas 20.93
37 Alonzo Mourning 20.91
38 Gary Payton 20.79
39 Reggie Miller 20.72
40 Chris Mullin 20.48
41 Chris Webber 20.44
42 Elgin Baylor 20.36
43 D Wilkins 20.27
44 Bobby Jones 20.21
45 Nate Thurmond 20.14
46 Tracy McGrady 20.11
47 Walt Bellamy 20.11
48 Ray Allen 19.91
49 Bob Cousy 19.89
50 Rick Barry 19.86



That's an embarrassing list. :facepalm:

Lionel20
09-23-2014, 10:58 PM
That's an embarrassing list. :facepalm:

thanks, KobeTop5.. coming from you that means a lot

NYKalltheway
09-24-2014, 07:34 AM
One more time:


How did you calculate/adjust League Quality?

Lionel20
09-24-2014, 11:40 AM
Here's are article that served as my basis for LQ adjustments, I tweaked it some

http://arturogalletti.wordpress.com/2010/07/17/measuring-the-quality-of-basketball-in-the-nba/

I estimated pre-1978 once I adjusted all the player stats
I made a further adjustment to translate all careers into 1990-on, I felt that the 90s was a fairly balanced time period to perform the comparisons.

Also, this is a linear weight breakdown of Alternate Win Score and is effectiveness.

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1985

I found it to undervalue Big Men compared to VORP(value over replacement player), so I merged them with Defensive ratings.. I can further explain when I get some time

Quinnsanity
09-24-2014, 12:04 PM
I disagree with a lot of the placement here, but I have to give credit for the objective criteria by which it was made. I like the idea of a purely numerical ranking of the best players. I do have one question though, what does the player value represent specifically? Is it an arbitrary number? Is it a sort of WAR but with points, so a points above replacement player sort of thing?

IKnowHoops
09-24-2014, 01:24 PM
Well you got Robinson in about the right place. Shaq seems a little low. Nice work though. I like to see a different perspective than the regular garbage based off of legend and team success.

NYKalltheway
09-24-2014, 05:19 PM
You're putting way too much emphasis on stats and like most PSD membres who love NBA related stats, you don't really do anything other than present them. There's no analysis. Just a collection and presentation which I'm sure took some time and it can help you see a few things, but it seems very faulty to me.
The reason I picked the 'league quality' part was to see how you tried to filter out some 'bad' stats and inflated stats but that doesn't seem to be the case here. There's no competition factor and the league quality factor you're using doesn't seem to do itself any justice.

Having Magic, Bird and big O outside your top 10 while including Lebron, Karl Malone and Gilmore shows a defect in your results.
Unless you could argue that this is just a list using factors a, b, c, d and e instead of saying "my top 50 list".

Lionel20
09-24-2014, 08:56 PM
I disagree with a lot of the placement here, but I have to give credit for the objective criteria by which it was made. I like the idea of a purely numerical ranking of the best players. I do have one question though, what does the player value represent specifically? Is it an arbitrary number? Is it a sort of WAR but with points, so a points above replacement player sort of thing?

The Player Value was determined by three formula's (Alternate Win Score, Value Over Replace Player). The linear weights for these formulas can be found here: http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1985

The third is a formula I developed that computes a value from Defensive wins shares, Defensive rating, and defensive awards to help account for the elements of defense that box scores over look.

Lionel20
09-24-2014, 09:08 PM
You're putting way too much emphasis on stats and like most PSD membres who love NBA related stats, you don't really do anything other than present them. There's no analysis. Just a collection and presentation which I'm sure took some time and it can help you see a few things, but it seems very faulty to me.
The reason I picked the 'league quality' part was to see how you tried to filter out some 'bad' stats and inflated stats but that doesn't seem to be the case here. There's no competition factor and the league quality factor you're using doesn't seem to do itself any justice.

Having Magic, Bird and big O outside your top 10 while including Lebron, Karl Malone and Gilmore shows a defect in your results.
Unless you could argue that this is just a list using factors a, b, c, d and e instead of saying "my top 50 list".

Here's a breakdown of the adjusted stats for starters... the 70 something players I've translated so far.


Name TRB AST STL BLK PTS
Adrian Dantley 5.73 2.92 0.95 0.13 20.56
Alex English 5.67 3.68 0.91 0.70 19.60
Allen Iverson 3.73 5.62 2.29 0.18 25.58
Alonzo Mourning 8.41 1.14 0.51 2.78 17.26
Artis Gilmore 13.77 2.46 0.54 2.29 17.94
Ben Wallace 9.86 1.43 1.42 1.99 6.44
Bill Russell 13.35 4.33 1.33 2.71 13.13
B Cunningham 7.59 3.74 1.07 1.00 16.77
Bob Cousy 3.13 7.64 1.51 0.27 13.67
Bob Lanier 8.24 3.51 1.04 1.43 20.59
Bob McAdoo 8.87 2.27 0.94 1.18 19.16
Bob Pettit 7.89 2.21 0.96 1.20 19.00
Bobby Jones 6.10 2.79 1.42 1.23 10.93
Carmelo Anthony 6.00 3.34 1.11 0.43 26.53
Charles Barkley 11.54 3.77 1.48 0.79 21.60
Chris Mullin 4.35 3.60 1.49 0.55 19.85
Chris Webber 9.61 4.40 1.48 1.42 21.15
Clyde Drexler 6.29 5.77 2.09 0.63 20.43
Dave Cowens 13.57 4.21 1.49 1.94 18.00
David Robinson 10.58 2.48 1.41 2.97 21.01
Dennis Johnson 3.96 4.98 1.43 0.55 10.66
Dennis Rodman 12.45 1.63 0.65 0.57 6.90
Dikembe Mutombo 10.16 1.04 0.43 2.71 10.08
Dirk Nowitzki 7.33 2.89 0.90 0.85 22.08
Dolph Schayes 7.65 2.34 0.67 0.94 13.52
D Wilkins 6.34 2.33 1.22 0.58 23.91
Dwight Howard 12.61 1.60 1.06 2.27 19.09
Dwyane Wade 5.21 6.52 1.94 1.00 26.24
Elgin Baylor 8.56 3.66 1.35 0.75 20.50
Elvin Hayes 9.02 2.01 0.67 1.41 21.17
Gary Payton 3.69 6.35 1.86 0.20 15.43
George Gervin 5.36 2.56 1.17 0.87 21.59
Hakeem Olajuwon 12.57 2.82 1.70 3.01 22.90
Isiah Thomas 3.59 8.85 1.87 0.25 18.88
Jason Kidd 6.31 8.41 1.91 0.30 11.47
Jerry Lucas 12.88 3.33 1.05 1.30 14.51
Jerry West 3.34 5.63 1.79 0.41 23.68
John Havlicek 4.34 4.19 1.47 0.48 15.30
John Stockton 2.74 9.95 2.01 0.20 13.32
Julius Erving 7.81 4.84 1.67 1.19 19.88
K Abdul-Jabbar 8.87 3.29 0.71 2.03 22.93
Karl Malone 10.04 3.50 1.42 0.75 24.35
Kevin Garnett 10.37 3.87 1.33 1.46 19.00
Kevin McHale 6.87 1.52 0.33 1.57 14.90
Kobe Bryant 5.31 5.33 1.43 0.55 26.80
Larry Bird 8.62 6.37 1.66 0.79 22.37
LeBron James 7.17 7.27 1.87 0.85 27.56
Magic Johnson 7.13 9.90 1.80 0.37 18.81
Michael Jordan 6.71 5.61 2.45 0.89 32.57
Mitch Richmond 3.93 3.52 1.25 0.26 20.99
Moses Malone 12.35 1.40 0.82 1.16 18.85
Nate Thurmond 12.81 2.69 0.82 1.56 13.03
Oscar Roberston 5.47 7.38 1.60 0.54 20.26
Patrick Ewing 9.83 1.93 0.95 2.35 20.59
Paul Pierce 5.30 3.74 1.41 0.55 21.44
Ray Allen 4.03 3.50 1.19 0.20 18.36
Reggie Miller 3.00 3.03 1.12 0.22 18.46
Rick Barry 5.27 4.23 1.50 0.65 22.12
Scottie Pippen 6.31 5.03 2.06 0.79 15.98
S O'Neal 10.90 2.65 0.64 2.18 24.57
Shawn Marion 8.81 2.09 1.67 1.10 14.97
Sidney Moncrief 5.24 3.88 1.44 0.33 15.76
Spencer Haywood 7.51 2.00 0.64 1.36 19.28
Steve Nash 2.64 8.17 0.71 0.08 13.22
Tim Duncan 11.31 3.36 0.81 2.30 22.11
Tony Parker 2.58 5.63 0.91 0.08 17.39
Tracy McGrady 5.67 4.90 1.21 0.79 20.64
Vince Carter 5.01 4.08 1.26 0.67 18.92
Walt Bellamy 10.64 2.47 0.77 1.58 17.32
Walt Frazier 6.19 6.23 2.01 0.44 16.28
W Chamebrlain 13.53 4.25 1.13 2.25 25.68

bagwell368
09-24-2014, 09:42 PM
It started off pretty well (Wilt too high for me), but I fell out of my chair on Gilmore. No way.

I agree with Garnett above Russell, although I'm sure few do.

Bobby Jones is a real favorite of mine, but he's simply not top 50.

Keep trying - at least you have reasons for your ratings unlike most of the hot heads here.

Lionel20
09-24-2014, 10:08 PM
You're putting way too much emphasis on stats and like most PSD membres who love NBA related stats, you don't really do anything other than present them. There's no analysis. Just a collection and presentation which I'm sure took some time and it can help you see a few things, but it seems very faulty to me.
The reason I picked the 'league quality' part was to see how you tried to filter out some 'bad' stats and inflated stats but that doesn't seem to be the case here. There's no competition factor and the league quality factor you're using doesn't seem to do itself any justice.

Having Magic, Bird and big O outside your top 10 while including Lebron, Karl Malone and Gilmore shows a defect in your results.
Unless you could argue that this is just a list using factors a, b, c, d and e instead of saying "my top 50 list".

For the record I was hoping to present my analysis in the ensuing replies to my original post. Appreciate you kicking it off...


Let's compare LeBron to Oscar Roberston. Remember all careers are translated to begin in 1990 to create a neutral time period and adjusted accordingly.

1.) LeBron played in slower paced era, more competitive era
2.) LeBron was much better defensively (according to box scores, advanced metrics, and other sources that chronicled Robertson
2a.) I find defense extremely undervalued in most NBA valuation metrics (if you need me to elaborate say so), in response I developed my own on the criteria I mentioned.

So it's already stacked in favor for LeBron

Better shooter?
(3pt shooting estimates for pre-1978 players based on a reasonable mix of FG%,FT%, 1990 3pt league ratio, and some expert opinion about player range)

Big O = (est.) .352 3pt%, .496 2pt%, .481 FG%, .892 FT%, .578 TS%

LeBron = .332 3pt%, .536 2pt%, .509 FG%, .741 FT%, .585 TS%

LeBron averages = 19 FGAs, Big O = 15

Shooting advantage = LeBron


Better Rebounder?

Big O = 5.5 (-4)

LeBron = 7.1 (-.1)

Obviously, the more missed shots per game, and weaker overall competition at the G-F spots in Roberston's day decrease him more.

Rebounding advantage = LeBron


Passing
(TOV estimated by adjusted AST, 1990 league ratio, expert analysis chronicling Roberston)

Big O = 7.38 APG, 2.23 APG/TOV

LeBron = 7.26 APG, 1.98 APG/TOV

Passing advantage = Roberston


Lastly, the Defensive ratings...
(Blocks/Steals follow the same criteria as TOV, except that Blocks are estimated from Defensive Rebs)

Big O = .05 BPG, 1.6 SPG, 94 overall Defensive Rating 94

LeBron = .08 BPG, 1.8 SPG, 118 overall Defensive Rating

Confirmed by quite a few nba journalist a researched, Big O was never really as thorough on defensive side of the ball.

Defensive Advantage = Lebron


Of course there's some more we could get into. But my general calculations show LeBron to be the much better overall player.

Lionel20
09-24-2014, 10:23 PM
It started off pretty well (Wilt too high for me), but I fell out of my chair on Gilmore. No way.

I agree with Garnett above Russell, although I'm sure few do.

Bobby Jones is a real favorite of mine, but he's simply not top 50.

Keep trying - at least you have reasons for your ratings unlike most of the hot heads here.

yeah Bobby Jones sounds strange as top 50, but my efficiency metrics value him high due to his efficiency low turnovers, high FG%, almost 2 ORB per game, obviously a stud defensively. Maybe he drops as I add more players into the system.

I disagree with you on Gilmore. He basically put up Dwight Howard numbers (plus 40% higher FT%) in an era with much more competitive Big Men.

FlashBolt
09-24-2014, 11:55 PM
Can we argue Robertson vs LeBron? That is NO COMPETITION. It's like comparing the best UFC fighter to a local TaeKwonDo black belt.. Just not in his league.

NYKalltheway
09-25-2014, 08:17 AM
Appreciate the response Lionel, but I should point out that this is just based on a statistical formula you came up with and that's how it should be portrayed. I know that this is what you meant with "my top 50" but it's not that clear to everyone ;)

Comparing players of different eras statistically, one on one, is the biggest mistake one can do in player comparison in basketball.

DitchDat
09-25-2014, 10:19 AM
*Age-Factor included
*Regular Season/Post Season stats included
*minimum of 800 games (Reg/PS)
*All Player stats adjusted for League Quality (LQ)
*Est. for players pre-1978 based on REBS/AST/FT%/FG%/PositionAVGs
*All players careers translated to begin in 1990 (basis) (pace-adjusted)
*Player Value = a combination of Alternate Win Score, VORP, and a calculated Defensive Rating (DWS, Drtg, Defensive Teams, etc.)


# Name Player Value
1 Michael Jordan 28.73
2 W Chamebrlain 28.51
3 K Abdul-Jabbar 27.78
4 Hakeem Olajuwon 27.10
5 Tim Duncan 26.59
6 LeBron James 26.37
7 Artis Gilmore 26.26
8 David Robinson 25.81
9 Karl Malone 25.64
10 S O'Neal 25.09
11 Magic Johnson 24.81
12 Kevin Garnett 24.75
13 Larry Bird 24.73
14 John Stockton 24.53
15 Charles Barkley 24.45
16 Julius Erving 24.44
17 Kobe Bryant 24.18
18 Bill Russell 23.76
19 Moses Malone 23.37
20 Dwyane Wade 23.31
21 Dwight Howard 22.97
22 Clyde Drexler 22.35
23 Oscar Roberston 22.07
24 Jason Kidd 22.02
25 Jerry West 21.91
26 Scottie Pippen 21.83
27 Dirk Nowitzki 21.81
28 Bob Lanier 21.74
29 Patrick Ewing 21.70
30 Walt Frazier 21.37
31 Dave Cowens 21.30
32 Ben Wallace 21.28
33 D Mutombo 21.18
34 Elvin Hayes 21.08
35 Shawn Marion 20.98
36 Jerry Lucas 20.93
37 Alonzo Mourning 20.91
38 Gary Payton 20.79
39 Reggie Miller 20.72
40 Chris Mullin 20.48
41 Chris Webber 20.44
42 Elgin Baylor 20.36
43 D Wilkins 20.27
44 Bobby Jones 20.21
45 Nate Thurmond 20.14
46 Tracy McGrady 20.11
47 Walt Bellamy 20.11
48 Ray Allen 19.91
49 Bob Cousy 19.89
50 Rick Barry 19.86


I love those criteria, but I would leave out active players and only submit them when their careers are over. That way, you get all the data, even the post-prime numbers that guys like PP and KG are experiencing right now.

bagwell368
09-25-2014, 12:24 PM
I disagree with you on Gilmore. He basically put up Dwight Howard numbers (plus 40% higher FT%) in an era with much more competitive Big Men.

Ummm... his big numbers years were in the ABA. Check out the crazy metrics by Dr. J and others over there. I hope you discounted them quite a bit. Including his ABA playoff stats. Funny he's rated 7th all time in WS (also) based on his massive 82 WS in 5 years (.226 WS/48) - but hey look - vs his 13 years in the NBA for 107 WS (but a vastly lower .174 WS/48)

The core of his NBA career was from '76-'85. This was not an elite era for Centers - in particular the first 2/3 of that period - compared especially what started to show up from '85-'05, or what was in '64-'68.

He was never the best Center in his time. His big selling point is his crazy ABA metrics and his Parish/Kareem like longevity.

Also as most fail to note - his D fell way way off '79-'80 and was really creaky his last 4 years.

He didn't drag his teams to success in the NBA playoffs, and he didn't do anything special when he was in them.

He's a top 15 center all time - maybe as high as 10, but the notion he's a top 3-5 is plain wrong for anyone that actually saw him play 50 times or more over the years.

KAJ, Wilt, Russell, Akeem, DRob, Moses, Shaq, Duncan - at a minimum are better.

Lionel20
09-25-2014, 01:14 PM
Ummm... his big numbers years were in the ABA. Check out the crazy metrics by Dr. J and others over there. I hope you discounted them quite a bit. Including his ABA playoff stats. Funny he's rated 7th all time in WS (also) based on his massive 82 WS in 5 years (.226 WS/48) - but hey look - vs his 13 years in the NBA for 107 WS (but a vastly lower .174 WS/48)

The core of his NBA career was from '76-'85. This was not an elite era for Centers - in particular the first 2/3 of that period - compared especially what started to show up from '85-'05, or what was in '64-'68.

He was never the best Center in his time. His big selling point is his crazy ABA metrics and his Parish/Kareem like longevity.

Also as most fail to note - his D fell way way off '79-'80 and was really creaky his last 4 years.

He didn't drag his teams to success in the NBA playoffs, and he didn't do anything special when he was in them.

He's a top 15 center all time - maybe as high as 10, but the notion he's a top 3-5 is plain wrong for anyone that actually saw him play 50 times or more over the years.

KAJ, Wilt, Russell, Akeem, DRob, Moses, Shaq, Duncan - at a minimum are better.

David Robison was never the best Center @ his time either.

Sure I discounted ABA numbers, but "quite a bit"? It's not like the ABA was the D-League. His biggest discount was in that his transition ABA-NBA came with about a 10-15% reduction in minutes. That's not really a knock on his skill. His per 36 min. stats didn't show much immediate drop-off.

Kareem
Moses
Hayes
Walton
Cowens
Caldwell Jones
Parish
Sikma
etc.

Presented plenty of defensive challenges, more so than Shaq faced later in his career. Shaq was obviously better offensively, but Gilmore was unquestionably a better defender. I also rank Gilmore a better Rebounder, and more efficient shooter (FT% included).

I'll run a closer examination when I get back to file.

IKnowHoops
09-25-2014, 02:21 PM
I'd love to see your formula applied to players 1 year or 3 year peaks! To see who had the best season ever based off your formula.

IKnowHoops
09-25-2014, 02:24 PM
Ummm... his big numbers years were in the ABA. Check out the crazy metrics by Dr. J and others over there. I hope you discounted them quite a bit. Including his ABA playoff stats. Funny he's rated 7th all time in WS (also) based on his massive 82 WS in 5 years (.226 WS/48) - but hey look - vs his 13 years in the NBA for 107 WS (but a vastly lower .174 WS/48)

The core of his NBA career was from '76-'85. This was not an elite era for Centers - in particular the first 2/3 of that period - compared especially what started to show up from '85-'05, or what was in '64-'68.

He was never the best Center in his time. His big selling point is his crazy ABA metrics and his Parish/Kareem like longevity.

Also as most fail to note - his D fell way way off '79-'80 and was really creaky his last 4 years.

He didn't drag his teams to success in the NBA playoffs, and he didn't do anything special when he was in them.

He's a top 15 center all time - maybe as high as 10, but the notion he's a top 3-5 is plain wrong for anyone that actually saw him play 50 times or more over the years.

KAJ, Wilt, Russell, Akeem, DRob, Moses, Shaq, Duncan - at a minimum are better.

I have to agree with this. ABA stats aren't replicated in the NBA by anyone. I'm sure if Shaq, Hakeem, or Drob played in the ABA they could of all averaged 35/16 like numbers during there primes. Not fair to include those IMO.

IKnowHoops
09-25-2014, 02:27 PM
David Robison was never the best Center @ his time either.

Sure I discounted ABA numbers, but "quite a bit"? It's not like the ABA was the D-League. His biggest discount was in that his transition ABA-NBA came with about a 10-15% reduction in minutes. That's not really a knock on his skill. His per 36 min. stats didn't show much immediate drop-off.

Kareem
Moses
Hayes
Walton
Cowens
Caldwell Jones
Parish
Sikma
etc.

Presented plenty of defensive challenges, more so than Shaq faced later in his career. Shaq was obviously better offensively, but Gilmore was unquestionably a better defender. I also rank Gilmore a better Rebounder, and more efficient shooter (FT% included).

I'll run a closer examination when I get back to file.

Drob's prime was during Shaq and Hakeems prime. Drob had 6-7 prime years in the NBA. During that time he won an MVP 4 NBA 1st teams and 2 NBA 2nd teams. He definitely had a few years where he was the best center in the league during the best era of centers in league history...so I disagree.

DarrylDawkins
09-25-2014, 03:07 PM
And how did you assess or determine your list?

Snap judgment?

What's the argument for Kareem so low?


Who I'd pick next if I needed a player for 6-7 Prime years.

Next few, McDaniel, Connie the Hawk, Dawkins.

DarrylDawkins
09-25-2014, 03:10 PM
Drob's prime was during Shaq and Hakeems prime. Drob had 6-7 prime years in the NBA. During that time he won an MVP 4 NBA 1st teams and 2 NBA 2nd teams. He definitely had a few years where he was the best center in the league during the best era of centers in league history...so I disagree.

I agree. D. Robinson was a top 5 player in the NBA from 90-97. This was a time when the top 5 was the best ever.

Robinson is about the 7th best player ever.

ewing
09-25-2014, 03:11 PM
what up chocolate thunder?

DarrylDawkins
09-25-2014, 03:18 PM
The Backboard-Swayin', Game-Delayin',
Game's Groovin', You Best Get Movin' SlamDunk

ewing
09-25-2014, 03:26 PM
we should have a thread where you just dunk

Lionel20
09-25-2014, 03:30 PM
Drob's prime was during Shaq and Hakeems prime. Drob had 6-7 prime years in the NBA. During that time he won an MVP 4 NBA 1st teams and 2 NBA 2nd teams. He definitely had a few years where he was the best center in the league during the best era of centers in league history...so I disagree.

Are you sure you disagree? Because 1-2 seasons does not translate into David Robinson being the best Center of his time

IKnowHoops
09-25-2014, 04:12 PM
Are you sure you disagree? Because 1-2 seasons does not translate into David Robinson being the best Center of his time

You said he was never the best center, and there were years where he definitely was the best center when prime Hakeem, and Prime Shaq were playing so yes I am sure without a shadow of a doubt I disagree.

IKnowHoops
09-25-2014, 04:14 PM
I agree. D. Robinson was a top 5 player in the NBA from 90-97. This was a time when the top 5 was the best ever.

Robinson is about the 7th best player ever.

:cheers:

bagwell368
09-25-2014, 09:13 PM
David Robison was never the best Center @ his time either.

He played in a far tougher era. He did much better in the playoffs than Gilmore too. He didn't play in the ABA. DRob > Gilmore.


Sure I discounted ABA numbers, but "quite a bit"? It's not like the ABA was the D-League. His biggest discount was in that his transition ABA-NBA came with about a 10-15% reduction in minutes. That's not really a knock on his skill. His per 36 min. stats didn't show much immediate drop-off.

Wha?

Gilmore averaged 14.8 TRB/per 36 in the ABA. His best years in the NBA were: 13.4, 12.7, and 12.6 in the NBA, and then dropping from there with an average of 11.1 - that's 75% of his ABA number.

His blocks in the ABA were 3.0 per 36, and 2.1 in the NBA.

His ABA WS/48 average was .226 - the #1 ABA player of all time in that measure. In the NBA, he was 49th all time. In his NBA prime ('76-'83) his WS48 ranks per season (with the player above him and below him listed for each season):

2nd - Issel; Lanier
12th - Marques; Dr. J * (2nd worst year of Dr. J's from '74-'84)
7th - Cedric Maxwell; Walter Davis
16th - Gervin; Mix
6th - Marques; Moses
4th - Moncrief; Magic
9th - Cartright; Buck Williams

In the ABA he was 1, 1, 5, 2, 2; So his NBA career was nowhere near as decorated as his ABA career.

Check out Dr. J.:

ABA: 3, 12, 1, 1, 1
NBA: 7, 12, 20, 3, 1, 1, 4, 10

Pretty close - except he has two #1's in the NBA during the same time frame and Gilmore managed a 2nd and 4th. Most have Dr. J outside the top 10 closer to 15 (and that's too high IMO, the ABA stats really help him out). So how does Gilmore rate a #7? In particular with his cruddy NBA playoff record? Gilmore could be as high as the late teens, forget 7th. I'd wager that you couldn't find a serious NBA historian/writer that would rate him in the top 15, never mind 7.


Presented plenty of defensive challenges, more so than Shaq faced later in his career. Shaq was obviously better offensively, but Gilmore was unquestionably a better defender.

Maybe by numbers against inferior competition, but from '96-'04 Shaq played D at a level that Gilmore seldom if ever reached except on paper in the ABA.

Lionel20
09-25-2014, 10:32 PM
Ummm... his big numbers years were in the ABA. Check out the crazy metrics by Dr. J and others over there. I hope you discounted them quite a bit. Including his ABA playoff stats. Funny he's rated 7th all time in WS (also) based on his massive 82 WS in 5 years (.226 WS/48) - but hey look - vs his 13 years in the NBA for 107 WS (but a vastly lower .174 WS/48)

The core of his NBA career was from '76-'85. This was not an elite era for Centers - in particular the first 2/3 of that period - compared especially what started to show up from '85-'05, or what was in '64-'68.

He was never the best Center in his time. His big selling point is his crazy ABA metrics and his Parish/Kareem like longevity.

Also as most fail to note - his D fell way way off '79-'80 and was really creaky his last 4 years.

He didn't drag his teams to success in the NBA playoffs, and he didn't do anything special when he was in them.

He's a top 15 center all time - maybe as high as 10, but the notion he's a top 3-5 is plain wrong for anyone that actually saw him play 50 times or more over the years.

KAJ, Wilt, Russell, Akeem, DRob, Moses, Shaq, Duncan - at a minimum are better.

But honestly, I always did think I may have estimated Gilmore a bit too high. Especially after adjusting his 1971-'72 Rookie ABA season (and postseason) translated into 1990:

Gilmore:

1971-72 FG% TRB AST BLK PPG AWS PV
0.594 15.54 2.77 4.14 20.93 26.39 25.43



To put in context, here's a comparison to Shaq's 1999-2000 season (adjusted to begin in 1990)

Shaq

1999-00 FG% TRB AST BLK PPG AWS PV
0.578 14.00 3.71 2.88 31.23 32.10 27.34


Shaq better offensively, Gilmore better defensively. Early 1970s ABA LQ is about 10-12% lower than the NBA during that period, but even with that adjustment Gilmore produces one of the all-time defensive seasons. Outside offensive efficiency, the major difference in the Shaq-Gilmore comparison is that 1971-72 Gilmore averages more than 1 more TOV/game (3.96) than Shaq (2.84).

Of course, in Gilmore's defense it was his rookie year, he was 22 and Shaq 27. In time Gilmore was more controlled with a few exceptions. Gilmore adjusted career TOV=4429, Shaq=4137.

I felt Gilmore was one the most underrated players of all-time (and still. But I went back an recalculated his regular season/post season and I indeed over adjusted his rebs 17% (down from 13.7), and understated his TOVs a good 14%. All in all Gilmore losses about 6% of his Player Value.

This is why I posted this rough draft list here, to find the errors sure to come for putting all this information together so quickly. The player value ranking are updated in the original post

Lionel20
09-25-2014, 11:01 PM
He played in a far tougher era. He did much better in the playoffs than Gilmore too. He didn't play in the ABA. DRob > Gilmore.



Wha?

Gilmore averaged 14.8 TRB/per 36 in the ABA. His best years in the NBA were: 13.4, 12.7, and 12.6 in the NBA, and then dropping from there with an average of 11.1 - that's 75% of his ABA number.

His blocks in the ABA were 3.0 per 36, and 2.1 in the NBA.

His ABA WS/48 average was .226 - the #1 ABA player of all time in that measure. In the NBA, he was 49th all time. In his NBA prime ('76-'83) his WS48 ranks per season (with the player above him and below him listed for each season):

2nd - Issel; Lanier
12th - Marques; Dr. J * (2nd worst year of Dr. J's from '74-'84)
7th - Cedric Maxwell; Walter Davis
16th - Gervin; Mix
6th - Marques; Moses
4th - Moncrief; Magic
9th - Cartright; Buck Williams

In the ABA he was 1, 1, 5, 2, 2; So his NBA career was nowhere near as decorated as his ABA career.

Check out Dr. J.:

ABA: 3, 12, 1, 1, 1
NBA: 7, 12, 20, 3, 1, 1, 4, 10

Pretty close - except he has two #1's in the NBA during the same time frame and Gilmore managed a 2nd and 4th. Most have Dr. J outside the top 10 closer to 15 (and that's too high IMO, the ABA stats really help him out). So how does Gilmore rate a #7? In particular with his cruddy NBA playoff record? Gilmore could be as high as the late teens, forget 7th. I'd wager that you couldn't find a serious NBA historian/writer that would rate him in the top 15, never mind 7.



Maybe by numbers against inferior competition, but from '96-'04 Shaq played D at a level that Gilmore seldom if ever reached except on paper in the ABA.

hmm

Are you factoring in that NBA players tend to declining once they hit 30? Gilmore's NBA prime would be 1976-81. Gilmore saw a reduction in MPG primarily, so if you level the the NBA/ABA comparison per 36 minutes (actual stats):

ABA
PPG = 19.34
TOV = 3.24
BLK = 2.94
STL = 0.60
AST = 2.62
REB = 14.78
FG% =.556

NBA
PPG = 20.04
TOV = 3.45
BLK = 2.04
STL = 0.60
REB = 11.59
FG% = .584

Gilmore is actually better offensively, worse defensively in the NBA. Again, where is this big drop off?

And there's is nothing I can find to show that Shaq was a better defensive player than Gilmore.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-26-2014, 12:23 PM
I give the original poster an "A" for effort but the list has many questionable results.

This is what happens when we determine a players worth only by stats.

Alayla
09-26-2014, 08:27 PM
I'm beginning to think stats both basic and advanced need to be taken away from the game entirely. Way back when at the time recording players and watching film wasn't possible i understand why they needed to exist but i feel now they are misused poorly contextualized and just excuses not to watch players play. I wouldn't dare to make such a list because there are some players that there is simply not enough film to watch what they did. For me to feel comfortable making such a list id need to wacth every player in NBA history for at least 10 hours worth of film and that's alot of work for something ultimately no one will ever agree with anyways. Stats allow people to make rash judgments just mix there stats and there accolades and BAM you have your opinion on a player and i don't think it should ever work that way.

I think what gets lost under all these stats and player evaluations is that this is a team game and every team and player will handle situations differently. For me the best players are simply the ones with the most versatility the most abililty to adapt to what happens around them If a player has excellent stats in a system catered to them yet there is someone who is very effective but maybe not elite in a system not catered to them but to there team the 2nd player in my opinion is doing a much better job. The ONLY way to truly know who is the best is to have insider info and the opinions of the people in each organization. Insane amounts of player testimony, Insane amounts of film comparing how players handle each situation.
A FULL understanding of each teams gameplans and how teams tended to react to each others gameplans in other words NO ONE will ever have a 100% objective view on who the best players are.

Although stats may seem objective at first they are intended to be taken with a grain of salt and contextualized and on PSD that is NEVER the case.

THE MTL
09-26-2014, 10:30 PM
There are a bunch of huge question marks but I love the approach you took with creating the list. I think defense was weighed a little too great though

NYKalltheway
09-27-2014, 06:46 AM
I'm beginning to think stats both basic and advanced need to be taken away from the game entirely. Way back when at the time recording players and watching film wasn't possible i understand why they needed to exist but i feel now they are misused poorly contextualized and just excuses not to watch players play. I wouldn't dare to make such a list because there are some players that there is simply not enough film to watch what they did. For me to feel comfortable making such a list id need to wacth every player in NBA history for at least 10 hours worth of film and that's alot of work for something ultimately no one will ever agree with anyways. Stats allow people to make rash judgments just mix there stats and there accolades and BAM you have your opinion on a player and i don't think it should ever work that way.

I think what gets lost under all these stats and player evaluations is that this is a team game and every team and player will handle situations differently. For me the best players are simply the ones with the most versatility the most abililty to adapt to what happens around them If a player has excellent stats in a system catered to them yet there is someone who is very effective but maybe not elite in a system not catered to them but to there team the 2nd player in my opinion is doing a much better job. The ONLY way to truly know who is the best is to have insider info and the opinions of the people in each organization. Insane amounts of player testimony, Insane amounts of film comparing how players handle each situation.
A FULL understanding of each teams gameplans and how teams tended to react to each others gameplans in other words NO ONE will ever have a 100% objective view on who the best players are.

Although stats may seem objective at first they are intended to be taken with a grain of salt and contextualized and on PSD that is NEVER the case.

excellent post. Hopefully more people will start thinking this way

Lionel20
11-11-2014, 10:30 PM
There are a bunch of huge question marks but I love the approach you took with creating the list. I think defense was weighed a little too great though

I just think in most metrics, defense is so undervalued. It's rare to find players that were great two-way players.

Lionel20
01-26-2015, 11:57 PM
*revised formula in OP

I factored in Usage Rate, and MVP shares to serve as an eye test or a sort.

YAALREADYKNO
01-27-2015, 09:43 AM
damn this thread still going?

Lionel20
01-27-2015, 12:08 PM
This is interesting...but you probably should have looked over your list before publishing so you could take out Shawn Marion and Dwight Howard.http://financenot.com/image/images/23.gif http://financenot.com/image/images/40.gif

I think Howard is a better defender than Ewing was, and he is so to a larger degree than Ewing was offensively superior Howard.

And what is it about Marion that causes him to be consistently underrated all-time?

He can shoot w range, an above average and efficient scorer. He wasn't only a great parameter defender, but he could defend just about any position on the court in his prime.

Lionel20
02-07-2015, 12:50 AM
*list expanded to top 100.

Here are some of the player rankings right outside the top 100.. 101-150 are "tenative"


101 Alvan Adams 24.34
102 Dennis Rodman 24.34
103 Willis Reed 24.32
104 Tiny Archibald 24.31
105 Billy Cunningham 24.29
106 Mark Aguirre 24.24
107 Zelmo Beaty 24.22
108 Chauncey Billups 24.15
109 Maurice Cheeks 24.10
110 George McGinnis 24.06
111 Tony Parker 24.04
112 Jason Terry 24.04
113 Joe Dumars 23.98
114 Antawn Jamison 23.97
115 Clifford Robinson 23.88
116 Buck Williams 23.85
117 Lamar Odom 23.82
118 Sam Cassell 23.81
119 Bernard King 23.79
120 Lenny Wilkens 23.66
121 Paul Westphal 23.48
122 Deron Williams 23.45
123 Peja Stojakovic 23.43
124 Pete Maravich 23.39
125 Dolph Schayes 23.35
126 Lou Hudson 23.34
127 Jamaal Wilkes 23.32
128 Paul Arizin 23.32
129 Dennis Johnson 23.30
130 Hal Greer 23.30
131 Jermaine O'Neal 23.16
132 George Mikan 23.05
133 Wes Unseld 23.04
134 Joe Johnson 23.01
135 Glen Rice 22.99
136 Chet Walker 22.93
137 Earl Monroe 22.87
138 Jack Twyman 22.85
139 John Starks 22.84
140 Glenn Robinson 22.58
141 Ralph Sampson 22.50
142 Bill Sharman 22.47
143 Tom Heinsohn 22.43
144 Dave DeBusschere 22.41
145 Mel Daniels 22.29
146 Bob Dandridge 22.14
147 Neil Johnston 22.02
148 Charlie Scott 22.00
149 Dave Bing 21.71
150 Jerry Sloan 21.52

Thunderballer
02-07-2015, 08:02 AM
Lots of question marks but the argument between astrology and astronomy is real in this thread.

ManningToTyree
02-07-2015, 10:07 AM
You lost me at Dwight Howard

DreamShaker
02-07-2015, 11:55 AM
Respect for thinking outside the box. I think you have to include the human element and the eye test as well. Elton Brand in the top 50, for instance, just isn't a good look.

Lionel20
02-07-2015, 01:31 PM
Respect for thinking outside the box. I think you have to include the human element and the eye test as well. Elton Brand in the top 50, for instance, just isn't a good look.

All players are ranked according to overall (offense/defense) efficiency. I do have to double check my results when I get a chance.

But I beleive this a lot of modern players like Elton Brand, Pau Gasol, Al Jefferson get overlooked because they don't come w the nostalgia and aura of the classic players.

I think there's a old school bias is most eye test, so the primary eye test I factor in is "MVP votes and Defensive awards"

Lionel20
02-07-2015, 01:37 PM
FRazier over the Big O? And Howard over Stockton Kobe, Malone, Malone, and Russsell? And Dr. J? And Garnett?http://financenot.com/image/images/23.gif http://ehealthwoman.com/apple/images/32.gif

So you'd take Walt Frazier over Big O? Based on what?

valade16
02-07-2015, 02:00 PM
If you value 2 way players you should have Ewing higher than Howard. Ewing had great defense and was a legitimate #1 option on offense who had an array of post moves and could hit a jumper.

His 9 year peak was 24.4 PPG, 11 RPG, 2.8 BPG while anchoring an elite defense that went to the finals and ECF numerous times.

Ewing is way better offensively compared to Dwight than Dwight is better than Ewing defensively. Dwight has averaged 21+ PPG once in his career and 20 PPG 4 times total.

If you value 2 way players you have to have Ewing above Dwight.

Lionel20
02-07-2015, 05:34 PM
If you value 2 way players you should have Ewing higher than Howard. Ewing had great defense and was a legitimate #1 option on offense who had an array of post moves and could hit a jumper.

His 9 year peak was 24.4 PPG, 11 RPG, 2.8 BPG while anchoring an elite defense that went to the finals and ECF numerous times.

Ewing is way better offensively compared to Dwight than Dwight is better than Ewing defensively. Dwight has averaged 21+ PPG once in his career and 20 PPG 4 times total.

If you value 2 way players you have to have Ewing above Dwight.

After my pace and league quality adjustments.

I have Ewing with a Usg% = 26.20. Much higher than Howard's 21.93. Ewing played tougher competition in the 80s, 90s, and the age factor obviously benefits Ewing as well.

But Howard is the more efficient shooter, taking on avg. 5 less shots per game. Howard shoots 58% from the floor compared to Ewing's 49%. Howard also averages 4 ORB per game compared to Ewings 2.3. When you consider that, I don't think that Ewing is "way" better than Howard offensively.

Howard is a top-10 defender all-time already. Ewing, was great defensively, in the 15-25 range.

I have Howard rated as a slightly better overall player than Ewing.

Tony_Starks
02-07-2015, 05:40 PM
No shots Lionell20 but your list reminds me of why I put such small stock in advanced stats...

Lionel20
02-08-2015, 09:21 AM
No shots Lionell20 but your list reminds me of why I put such small stock in advanced stats...

lol I feel you,

But my opinion is that some players have more marketability than others. Marketability doesn't exactly translate into on-court efficiency.

This list gets to the bottom of on-court performance and factors long-Jevity into it.

Tony_Starks
02-08-2015, 11:29 AM
No shots Lionell20 but your list reminds me of why I put such small stock in advanced stats...

lol I feel you,

But my opinion is that some players have more marketability than others. Marketability doesn't exactly translate into on-court efficiency.

This list gets to the bottom of on-court performance and factors long-Jevity into it.

Oh I'm totally with you on marketability. That' would actually be a interesting topic, where do people factor in the marketability and entertainment element in their all time rankings....