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Matter.
09-20-2014, 08:15 PM
Every summer, PSD holds a game where GM's re-draft players to see who creates the best team. This year, users from the site had to utilize their skills via draft, trades. At the end of the game, GMs voted on how they believed the regular season of this game would shake up. These are the playoffs of PSD's 2014 NBA Re-Draft

Please take the time to consider each line up, the match-up itself, and vote on which team you believe would win in a seven game series.

Tijuana has homecourt advantage.

Tijuana

PG: Kyrie Irving | Kirk Hinrich
SG: Danny Green | Wayne Ellington
SF: Jimmy Butler | Richard Jefferson
PF: David West | J.J. Hickson
C: Brook Lopez | Ed Davis

vs

Baltimore
PG: Patrick Beverley - Steve Blake - Manu Ginobili
SG: Manu Ginobili - Andrew Wiggins - James Jones
SF: Andre Iguodola - Marvin Williams - Andrew Wiggins - James Jones
PF: Josh McRoberts - Jordan Hill - Marvin Williams
C: Dwight Howard - Jordan Hill

Neither team sent in a writeup.

AI
09-21-2014, 01:52 AM
Good luck UTB!

Ebbs
09-21-2014, 03:08 AM
This is the toughest one.

Honestly Baltimores defense would be stifling at times but this isn't the Dwight of old. That perimeter doesn't inspire me offensively either. I'm looking at Wiggins and wondering what he'd be capable of adding as a rookie but I just don't know.

Tijuana has the ? With Brook but assuming he's healthy that's a very complete team too to bottom. Perimeter and post scoring, defense, toughness...


(Can't vote from the piece of **** app, but I'm voting Tijuana.)

AI
09-21-2014, 03:19 AM
This is the toughest one.

Honestly Baltimores defense would be stifling at times but this isn't the Dwight of old. That perimeter doesn't inspire me offensively either. I'm looking at Wiggins and wondering what he'd be capable of adding as a rookie but I just don't know.

Tijuana has the ? With Brook but assuming he's healthy that's a very complete team too to bottom. Perimeter and post scoring, defense, toughness...


(Can't vote from the piece of **** app, but I'm voting Tijuana.)

The bolded is key for future voters, health is assumed for redraft purposes so Tijuana has Brook at 100%.

AI
09-21-2014, 03:57 AM
I'm curious as to why, according to the votes so far, people believe Baltimore is capable of beating Tijuana in a 7 game series in which Tijuana has homecourt? That Baltimore team will not be capable of scoring enough points to win this series. Could the defense create problems in 1-2 games? Sure, but let's be real, Tijuana is clearly the superior team here. It has no weakness and is a complete team.

Manu is not in the Spurs system and will be asked to be a legitimate 2nd option, will he be as efficient trying to carry the load on an offensively inept team? Danny Green and Jimmy Butler are both terrific defenders as well, so you're basically asking Dwight to single handedly win you this series; unless you expect Beverley and McRoberts to be factors, which is just ridiculous.

Tijuana should win this, and quite easily I might add. Superior team, much better offense with multiple options, defense is solid, the fit is perfect, there's no weakness on that team.

valade16
09-21-2014, 09:13 AM
Baltimore is asking Manu to drastically increase his usage and role on this team, and I'm not sure if at his age he can be relied on so heavily. It's basically him and Iggy creating on the wing. I just don't see how they score enough points to win.

KnicksorBust
09-21-2014, 10:46 AM
Am I the only one who finds Baltimore's depth chart hilarious? Is James Jones going to get a lot of minutes as 4th string small forward?

mightybosstone
09-21-2014, 11:01 AM
I'm trying really, really hard to overcome my love for Baltimore, an obvious homer pick for me because of Beverley and Dwight. But I do think this is kind of a matchup nightmare for Tijuana. If you look at the head-to-head numbers of Dwight and Lopez, it's been a pretty damn one-sided matchup over their careers:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=howardw01&p2=lopezbr01

Lopez has performed better against Dwight in recent seasons, but the injury concern still bothers me a bit. Also, Irving's only played Beverly once, but I remember Beverley gave Irving a ton of problems in that game. Having those two guys to work on Tijuana's best offensive players over a 7-game series is going to be really tough for Tijuana to overcome.

But I do think Tijuana has a superior offensive team. Assuming Brook is relatively healthy, Irving, Lopez and West make a pretty formidable 1-2-3 with some very nice role-playing 3 and D guys in Butler and Green. But I also really like the rest of Baltimore's team (even if their depth chart is totally screwed up). They're a defensive nightmare for most teams to face. And although I do think Manu is probably going to have to be the No. 2 offensively for this squad, I think Wiggins and Iggy could feasibly get them 13-15 points a night as the third and fourth options, and there's good role-playing offensive guys around them. I also love the McRoberts fit next to Dwight as the stretch 4 who can also defend and rebound. I also think Baltimore is a far deeper team.

I want to wait a little bit to see some more debate, but I'm leaning slightly toward Baltimore right now.

mightybosstone
09-21-2014, 11:12 AM
Sure, but let's be real, Tijuana is clearly the superior team here. It has no weakness and is a complete team.
Mmmm... I certainly wouldn't go that far. Rebounding is going to be an issue for you. Lopez is historically a horrible rebounder for your position and West is average at best for his position. McRoberts is insanely mediocre for his position, but Dwight is still a beast and Baltimore has very good rebounders at every other position. Also, your No. 1 and No. 2 are fairly "meh" by PSD re-draft standards. If Lopez had played most of last season and was coming off of a good year, that would be a great 1-2 punch, but that injury question mark is going to haunt you.


Manu is not in the Spurs system and will be asked to be a legitimate 2nd option, will he be as efficient trying to carry the load on an offensively inept team? Danny Green and Jimmy Butler are both terrific defenders as well, so you're basically asking Dwight to single handedly win you this series; unless you expect Beverley and McRoberts to be factors, which is just ridiculous.
This is a really good point, as Manu has not been a true No. 2 guy for a while. But it's worth noting that he was pretty much the No. 2 guy for most of the playoffs last year for the Spurs until Leonard took over in the Finals. And I do think he's capable of being that guy over the course of a 7-game series. Wiggins is the real question mark for that team. I could see him being a 16-18 PPG guy as a rookie who gets to the basket and the line and scores relatively efficiently or I could see him as a 12-13 PPG guy as a rookie who relies too much on his shaky jumper and needs 10-12 shots per night just to get his points.


Tijuana should win this, and quite easily I might add. Superior team, much better offense with multiple options, defense is solid, the fit is perfect, there's no weakness on that team.
Your team fits like a glove. No one is debating that. But I really, really like the fit of that Baltimore team as well. McRoberts and Dwight are a match made in heaven. They have a very good group of 3-point shooters and the ball-handling wings (Manu and Iggy) should easily make up for Beverley's lack of distribution skills. Both teams were extremely well built, but if I'm looking at this matchup, I do think you have some problems that you're overlooking.

AI
09-21-2014, 11:56 AM
I'm trying really, really hard to overcome my love for Baltimore, an obvious homer pick for me because of Beverley and Dwight. But I do think this is kind of a matchup nightmare for Tijuana. If you look at the head-to-head numbers of Dwight and Lopez, it's been a pretty damn one-sided matchup over their careers:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=howardw01&p2=lopezbr01

Lopez has performed better against Dwight in recent seasons, but the injury concern still bothers me a bit.


If Lopez had played most of last season and was coming off of a good year, that would be a great 1-2 punch, but that injury question mark is going to haunt you.

You're a vet in this, so you know that health is assumed and when healthy Brook is arguably the top offensive C in the game, you yourself agreed to this earlier. He'll get his against Dwight, especially when you consider that I have a guy in Irving who can create shots for himself and his teammates. Brook's also a much better defender than he gets credit for. Also, as KoB clearly mentioned, this is not the Dwight of old and this is also not the Brook of old so to compare his early matchups with Dwight is really not the way to go about this as Howard has regressed and Brook has significantly improved his game.


Also, Irving's only played Beverly once, but I remember Beverley gave Irving a ton of problems in that game. Having those two guys to work on Tijuana's best offensive players over a 7-game series is going to be really tough for Tijuana to overcome.

Not a big enough sample size and Baltimore's offensive problems, especially against a solid defensive team in Tijuana, are going to be harden to overcome than Tijuana overcoming Baltimore's defense. I don't think you're giving Tijuana the defensive credit it deserves either, Kyrie's my only below-average defender and he's matching up against a guy in Beverley who's not going to exploit that matchup.


But I do think Tijuana has a superior offensive team. Assuming Brook is relatively healthy, Irving, Lopez and West make a pretty formidable 1-2-3 with some very nice role-playing 3 and D guys in Butler and Green. But I also really like the rest of Baltimore's team (even if their depth chart is totally screwed up). They're a defensive nightmare for most teams to face. And although I do think Manu is probably going to have to be the No. 2 offensively for this squad, I think Wiggins and Iggy could feasibly get them 13-15 points a night as the third and fourth options, and there's good role-playing offensive guys around them. I also love the McRoberts fit next to Dwight as the stretch 4 who can also defend and rebound. I also think Baltimore is a far deeper team.

I want to wait a little bit to see some more debate, but I'm leaning slightly toward Baltimore right now.[/QUOTE]

You have no idea what Wiggins will be and he's a complete unknown at this point, he's basically a non-factor until he proves he can be one. Iggy was a 3rd/4th option on the Warriors who were one of the top offensive teams in the NBA and still managed to score only 9 PPG.


Mmmm... I certainly wouldn't go that far. Rebounding is going to be an issue for you. Lopez is historically a horrible rebounder for your position and West is average at best for his position. McRoberts is insanely mediocre for his position, but Dwight is still a beast and Baltimore has very good rebounders at every other position. Also, your No. 1 and No. 2 are fairly "meh" by PSD re-draft standards.


This is a really good point, as Manu has not been a true No. 2 guy for a while. But it's worth noting that he was pretty much the No. 2 guy for most of the playoffs last year for the Spurs until Leonard took over in the Finals. And I do think he's capable of being that guy over the course of a 7-game series. Wiggins is the real question mark for that team. I could see him being a 16-18 PPG guy as a rookie who gets to the basket and the line and scores relatively efficiently or I could see him as a 12-13 PPG guy as a rookie who relies too much on his shaky jumper and needs 10-12 shots per night just to get his points.

Team rebounding won't be an issue. Plus I have two bigs off the bench in Hickson and Davis who are both excellent rebounders as well.

I think you are going way too deep into "redraft perception" and choosing to ignore that Kyrie, Lopez and West is as good a 1-2-3 as you'll see in this type of game. I surrounded them with guys in Green and Jimmy who are solid role players. I don't have a guy like Lebron, Durant or Melo on the team but I do have a complete team with players that will succeed in the role they are being given.

You really expect Dwight to lead a team with Manu as it's 2nd option to beat a team like Tijuana? Let me expand on that. Manu is NOT in Popovich's system, the spacing on Baltimore's team is nowhere near as good as the Spurs and the pieces don't work as well. It's a completely different role for Manu, his usage is going to significantly increase and he's going to play a much different role, will he be as efficient? Especially having Danny Green and Jimmy Butler (Jimmy will be the guy guarding Manu most of the time), who are both terrific defenders, on him all series.

Mr. Baller
09-21-2014, 12:05 PM
You're a vet in this, so you know that health is assumed and when healthy Brook is arguably the top offensive C in the game, you yourself agreed to this earlier. He'll get his against Dwight, especially when you consider that I have a guy in Irving who can create shots for himself and his teammates. Brook's also a much better defender than he gets credit for. Also, as KoB clearly mentioned, this is not the Dwight of old and this is also not the Brook of old so to compare his early matchups with Dwight is really not the way to go about this as Howard has regressed and Brook has significantly improved his game.



Not a big enough sample size and Baltimore's offensive problems, especially against a solid defensive team in Tijuana, are going to be harden to overcome than Tijuana overcoming Baltimore's defense. I don't think you're giving Tijuana the defensive credit it deserves either, Kyrie's my only below-average defender and he's matching up against a guy in Beverley who's not going to exploit that matchup.



I want to wait a little bit to see some more debate, but I'm leaning slightly toward Baltimore right now.


You have no idea what Wiggins will be and he's a complete unknown at this point, he's basically a non-factor until he proves he can be one. Iggy was a 3rd/4th option on the Warriors who were one of the top offensive teams in the NBA and still managed to score only 9 PPG.





Team rebounding won't be an issue. Plus I have two bigs off the bench in Hickson and Davis who are both excellent rebounders as well.

I think you are going way too deep into "redraft perception" and choosing to ignore that Kyrie, Lopez and West is as good a 1-2-3 as you'll see in this type of game. I surrounded them with guys in Green and Jimmy who are solid role players. I don't have a guy like Lebron, Durant or Melo on the team but I do have a complete team with players that will succeed in the role they are being given.

You really expect Dwight to lead a team with Manu as it's 2nd option to beat a team like Tijuana? Let me expand on that. Manu is NOT in Popovich's system, the spacing on Baltimore's team is nowhere near as good as the Spurs and the pieces don't work as well. It's a completely different role for Manu, his usage is going to significantly increase and he's going to play a much different role, will he be as efficient? Especially having Danny Green and Jimmy Butler (Jimmy will be the guy guarding Manu most of the time), who are both terrific defenders, on him all series.

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/1e/1e1d5d079e23366d1149ea834ce8102f62d562519d45930ae0 c0fb1b485ffff7.jpg

unleashthebeast
09-21-2014, 12:11 PM
Honestly I am a matchup nightmare here for Tijuana.

His two best offensive options in Kyrie and Brook are matchup against two of the best defenders at their positions. Like MBT said, Dwight vs Brook matchups over their careers have been extremely one-sided, and Beverley in his one matchup with Kyrie forced 6 turnovers and had Kyrie shooting 42%.

And everyone is knocking my offense, but it is plenty capable to score enough to beat this Tijuana team. In case you didn't know, Josh McRoberts was ****ing great last year. Outstanding passer at his position and also the perfect floor-spacer for Dwight. And Iggy-Manu are both still plenty capable of being playmakers for their team.


Try to knock my offense all you want but with Tijuana's best 2 offensive options being slowed down by 2 great defenders, my offense will score enough to win this series.

mightybosstone
09-21-2014, 02:36 PM
You're a vet in this, so you know that health is assumed and when healthy Brook is arguably the top offensive C in the game, you yourself agreed to this earlier.
Health is assumed to an extent, but if it's a player coming off a significant injury or a player who is constantly missing time like Lopez, there's always going to be doubt. You should know that, yourself. And I did say that when healthy Lopez is one of the best offensive centers in the game, but he's coming off a significant injury and going against a guy who has been his Kryptonite over the years.


He'll get his against Dwight, especially when you consider that I have a guy in Irving who can create shots for himself and his teammates. Brook's also a much better defender than he gets credit for.
There are a lot of point guards who can create for their teammates. Irving is not exceptional in that regard. And Lopez is a better defensive center than people give him credit for, but he's still pretty average on that end of the floor and still well below average on the glass.


Also, as KoB clearly mentioned, this is not the Dwight of old and this is also not the Brook of old so to compare his early matchups with Dwight is really not the way to go about this as Howard has regressed and Brook has significantly improved his game.
No, but Dwight is still probably the best two-way center in the NBA. And he's a handful for pretty much any center in the league. Look how well Dwight played in the playoffs against Portland last year against Brook's brother, putting up monster numbers against a superior defensive center. The dude put up 26/14/3/2 on 55% shooting from the floor.


Not a big enough sample size and Baltimore's offensive problems, especially against a solid defensive team in Tijuana, are going to be harden to overcome than Tijuana overcoming Baltimore's defense. I don't think you're giving Tijuana the defensive credit it deserves either, Kyrie's my only below-average defender and he's matching up against a guy in Beverley who's not going to exploit that matchup.
Yeah, but aside from Butler, you also don't have any great defenders. Green is very good, West and Lopez are average to slightly above average. And Irving is awful. To me, you have an average defensive team at best, and a well below average rebounding team.


You have no idea what Wiggins will be and he's a complete unknown at this point, he's basically a non-factor until he proves he can be one. Iggy was a 3rd/4th option on the Warriors who were one of the top offensive teams in the NBA and still managed to score only 9 PPG.
If Wiggins was just any other draft pick, I'd buy him as a non-factor. But he was one of the most highly touted draft picks in the last decade. He's an unknown, but he's a talented unknown and a dangerous player to have in a game like this, even if he's only their fourth or fifth best player. Also, you certainly can't say Iggy was the third option on a team with Curry, Lee and Thompson. That's ludicrous. But I still see him as a guy capable of putting up 12-13 points a game when necessary, which may be all Baltimore needs.


Team rebounding won't be an issue. Plus I have two bigs off the bench in Hickson and Davis who are both excellent rebounders as well.
I'm sorry, but that's not a good enough answer. Your center averaged a pitiful 11.5 TRB% last season and his career average (12.9%) is not much better. West also is a below average rebounder. And you're going up against a guy who has been a top five rebounding center over the last decade and a team with plus rebounderes at every position outside of McRoberts. Saying "my rebounding won't be a problem" just doesn't cut it.


I think you are going way too deep into "redraft perception" and choosing to ignore that Kyrie, Lopez and West is as good a 1-2-3 as you'll see in this type of game. I surrounded them with guys in Green and Jimmy who are solid role players. I don't have a guy like Lebron, Durant or Melo on the team but I do have a complete team with players that will succeed in the role they are being given.
I'm not ignoring anything. I've already said that I think your squad is well constructed. But I think their team is as well, and they match up exceptionally well with you. And I have no clue what you mean by "redraft perception" so you'll have to explain that to me at some point.


You really expect Dwight to lead a team with Manu as it's 2nd option to beat a team like Tijuana?
The Spurs won a championship last season with Manu being the No. 2 for the vast majority of the playoffs. And they don't have a No. 1 as talented or efficient as Dwight. I think Baltimore as a lot of talented offensive players who can play their roles well and fit Dwight's game extremely well. I also think Baltimore is a deeper basketball team with a superior bench, and I trust them a little more because they have more veterans and fewer question marks.


Let me expand on that. Manu is NOT in Popovich's system, the spacing on Baltimore's team is nowhere near as good as the Spurs and the pieces don't work as well.
Why is that exactly? Looking at Baltimore's floor spacing, that starting five has more quality 3-point shooters than the Spurs starting five. Beverley (36.1%), McRoberts (36.1%) and Iggy (35.4%) all shoot at an above average pace.


It's a completely different role for Manu, his usage is going to significantly increase and he's going to play a much different role, will he be as efficient? Especially having Danny Green and Jimmy Butler (Jimmy will be the guy guarding Manu most of the time), who are both terrific defenders, on him all series.
So what? It's going to be a completely different role for literally every single player on both rosters, so why is Manu going to be more effected by it then anyone else? You're acting like Manu is some rookie or sophomore player coming off a fluke season. But Manu is a guy who has excelled for a decade in the NBA and in international play. He's a smart, savvy player who could easily adapt to different teams and you're not giving him nearly enough credit. The guy's a future HOFer. Treat him like one.

todu82
09-21-2014, 05:44 PM
TijuANA

AI
09-21-2014, 10:37 PM
So counting Ebbs' vote and voiding this guys vote http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/member.php?261815-TheCatch (less than 20 posts) this currently stands at 12-10. Let's get more votes people.

Sportfan
09-22-2014, 09:10 AM
Tijuana pretty easily tbh.

Love that West/Brook combo in the front court. Enough space for both of them, plus Kyrie/Butler/Green with that 3 point range

Tijuana's defense is below average but who do they have to defend? Dwight isn't carrying offenses anymore haha.

KnicksorBust
09-22-2014, 06:00 PM
Honestly I am a matchup nightmare here for Tijuana.

His two best offensive options in Kyrie and Brook are matchup against two of the best defenders at their positions. Like MBT said, Dwight vs Brook matchups over their careers have been extremely one-sided, and Beverley in his one matchup with Kyrie forced 6 turnovers and had Kyrie shooting 42%.

And everyone is knocking my offense, but it is plenty capable to score enough to beat this Tijuana team. In case you didn't know, Josh McRoberts was ****ing great last year. Outstanding passer at his position and also the perfect floor-spacer for Dwight. And Iggy-Manu are both still plenty capable of being playmakers for their team.


Try to knock my offense all you want but with Tijuana's best 2 offensive options being slowed down by 2 great defenders, my offense will score enough to win this series.


Tijuana pretty easily tbh.

Love that West/Brook combo in the front court. Enough space for both of them, plus Kyrie/Butler/Green with that 3 point range

Tijuana's defense is below average but who do they have to defend? Dwight isn't carrying offenses anymore haha.

These posts sum up the back and forth I had with myself before casting my vote for Tijuana. Tijuana's biggest weakness is probably defending the PG spot with Kyrie but Beverly won't exploit that at all. West is the perfect big at PF for that team and if they need to drop down and double Dwight you can leave Iguodala wide open who was barely an offensive threat last year.

xnick5757
09-22-2014, 08:39 PM
with brook being healthy, i think that Tijuana wins by a decent amount. Don't really think that baltimore has the offensive firepower to beat a team with kyrie/lopez


baltimores starting 5 are all good players, but i dont see any of them being able to carry the load offensively.

AI
09-23-2014, 06:49 AM
Tight matchup, let's get more votes people.

unleashthebeast
09-23-2014, 12:35 PM
with brook being healthy, i think that Tijuana wins by a decent amount. Don't really think that baltimore has the offensive firepower to beat a team with kyrie/lopez


baltimores starting 5 are all good players, but i dont see any of them being able to carry the load offensively.

But Kyrie and Lopez can carry a team in a playoff series? We surely have never seen that before. And Lopez is matched up against a dude that has dominated him his entire career, and Kyrie is against a great defensive player too.

So I'm not sure how you can say they can beat us because of their offensive firepower when their main two weapons are slowed down by elite defenders

AI
09-23-2014, 12:54 PM
But Kyrie and Lopez can carry a team in a playoff series? We surely have never seen that before. And Lopez is matched up against a dude that has dominated him his entire career, and Kyrie is against a great defensive player too.

So I'm not sure how you can say they can beat us because of their offensive firepower when their main two weapons are slowed down by elite defenders

We can all agree that Joakim Noah is an elite defender at the C position, correct? And we can all agree that the Bulls as a whole are an elite defensive team, correct?

Well, Brook Lopez last year in the playoffs vs CHI - 22.3 PPG, 7.4 REB, 3.0 BLK, 47% FG% (25.2 PER and 113 ORtg) This, on a team where his usage rate during that 7 game series was 28.4% and the Nets were starting guys like Gerald Wallace, Reggie Evans and Deron Williams.

What you are failing to understand is just how well the spacing works for that Tijuana team. West is literally the perfect PF next to Brook which will allow him to work in the post/paint due to West's solid mid-range jumper. Not to mention, D-Will has plummeted and Kyrie will only continue to get better (and will be more efficient this year now that he FINALLY has options and is not surrounded by turds in CLE).

But, let's go by that "elite defenders" will slow down offensive options you are selling. Jimmy Butler will be guarding Manu for most of the time he's on the floor, which BTW, isn't much because Manu hasn't played over 24 minutes per game for the past 3 seasons and his playoff minutes have been in steady decline since the 2009 season. Suddenly he's asked to be a #2 option, without a guy like Tony Parker to create looks for him, or guys in the wings in Green and Kawhi who will allow him to necessary spacing to attack and create, or a proven winning system in place (Popovich).

So, when Jimmy slows down Manu, who else is going to beat Tijuana? Dwight cannot carry a team anymore and Iguodala/Beverley/McRoberts will simply not get the job done against a much more balanced team in Tijuana.

AI
09-23-2014, 08:51 PM
Solid matchup, thanks UTB and everyone who took the time to vote!

Raps18-19 Champ
09-23-2014, 10:41 PM
Lopez doesn't even have a foot for this series.