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View Full Version : LMA and Cousins are the best two Bigs in the game.



Tony_Starks
09-17-2014, 10:54 PM
We saw what LA did in the playoffs. Then if you've been watching Cousins this summer he's been equally impressive. They shoot, actually have post moves, defend, and their footwork is great.

Griffin is in the conversation as well but when you compare his touch and fundamentals to these guys it's an entirely different story.

ThuglifeJ
09-17-2014, 11:05 PM
I like Davis, Gasol, Noah, Griffin, and Dwight equally to LA and more than cousins for my team.

They all bring a LOT.

Drummond I think will be great too eventually.

bucketss
09-17-2014, 11:05 PM
LMA defends?

DemarDerozan
09-17-2014, 11:07 PM
Davis has to be in the discussion as well. I think AD and DMC surpass Noah and the Gasols this year. They've already passed Dwight and Blake IMO.

xxplayerxx23
09-17-2014, 11:17 PM
LMA is so overrated his efficiency for a big is so low even without 3 point shooting.

da ThRONe
09-17-2014, 11:25 PM
I'm OK with this thread. I'd probably go Howard over Cousins and Griffin over Aldridge. But I think Aldridge doesn't get the credit he deserves. He's the main reason Portland is a playoff team in an insane West.

flea
09-17-2014, 11:29 PM
Both are pretty worthless defensively, at positions where it's almost a necessity. I can think of 5 bigs easily better than both.

xxplayerxx23
09-17-2014, 11:40 PM
I'm OK with this thread. I'd probably go Howard over Cousins and Griffin over Aldridge. But I think Aldridge doesn't get the credit he deserves. He's the main reason Portland is a playoff team in an insane West.

Lillard is pretty good. I would take Davis over LMA right now

mightybosstone
09-17-2014, 11:44 PM
Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but I don't think this is a particularly well thought out argument. I wouldn't put either guy in the top five as neither player is exceptional defensively, Aldridge is one of the most inefficient scoring bigs in the NBA and Cousins continues to put up empty stats for a terrible basketball team.

If I were ranking the best bigs in the league, I'd certainly put the following guys ahead of both LMA and Cousins without question (in no particular order):
Blake Griffin
Kevin Love
Anthony Davis
Dwight Howard
Tim Duncan
Dirk Nowitzki

And you could make a halfway decent case for the following guys as well:
Marc Gasol
Joakim Noah
Chris Bosh
Al Jefferson

Anyone looking to justify Aldridge or Cousins as the two best bigs in the league isn't using sound logic. There's no statistical argument or legitimate reason for either guy being the best big in the league, much less both of them.

valade16
09-17-2014, 11:48 PM
Both are pretty worthless defensively, at positions where it's almost a necessity. I can think of 5 bigs easily better than both.

LMA is certainly not worthless defensively. Of all the superstar PFs he is the best defender of the bunch. He was 8th for PFs in DWS last season, he had the lowest Drtg on the Blazers and he held opponents to under 50% shooting at the rim.

To say he's worthless defensively is a comically bad understanding of his defense.

flea
09-17-2014, 11:54 PM
Until Lopez got there that team was awful, and he was a big reason. Doesn't protect the paint and gets pushed around easily. One season of stats with a good defensive center doesn't wash away years of being below average.

THE MTL
09-18-2014, 12:10 AM
I'm going with Anthony Davis and Cousins

JLynn943
09-18-2014, 01:05 AM
Cousins actually improved defensively last year (and I believe this summer). Not going to argue that it's a strength of his, but it's less a problem than it was. If he continues to improve to where it's a strength, he'd probably be the most complete center in the NBA. Until then, I don't think he's the top center, but he's close and probably has an argument for it (I'd still say it's Gasol though).

LMA I don't know about being the best PF. I'd take Blake, Love, and probably Dirk over him for sure. Davis is a PF, too, right? He'd be ahead of LMA too imo.

dhopisthename
09-18-2014, 01:15 AM
meh aldridge offensively last year was pretty brutal. 45.8% with only 15 3pt attempts. that is beyond chucker level. its pretty telling that he was 3rd on his team in ws/48 and just barely above matthews.

IKnowHoops
09-18-2014, 01:24 AM
I think LMA and Cousins could make an argument, but there are about 6 guys that could make an argument. I'm definitely taking Love, Griiffin, and Davis over those two though. Cousins is physically great. I like him a lot. But his IQ is not that good. He makes a lot of stupid child like fouls. He's also a crybaby. He needs to be better mentally. LMA, you know, he's got an argument. He proved in the playoffs that on any given day, he can be the best player on the floor, but I think that had much to do with him playing against Houston. He had a good matchup he was able to take advantage of. Different story playing the Spurs. Not gonna knock him for that because they either shut down or ******** every players efficiency last year in the playoffs accept for Lebron.

Minimal
09-18-2014, 01:38 AM
LMA is overrated

Jarvo
09-18-2014, 01:46 AM
I've been saying this for the last two years, LMA is the best PF in the game right now and DMC is the best Center. But if Davis plays out of his mind next season he will get my vote.

I just think Love is overrated as hell on here & I love Noah but DMC brings more to the table than him.

Clippersfan86
09-18-2014, 03:39 AM
Lol. As others have said... Griffin/Davis/Love/Howard/Dirk are pretty much a lock over these two. So the answer is no. I'd even take Duncan over them probably last year.

naps
09-18-2014, 06:07 AM
You can't make a serious case for either one. Get real.

Anthony Davis is the guy I am looking forward to watch this year. I honestly think he will become a true superstar and enter the top 5 discussion this season.

Trueblue2
09-18-2014, 07:25 AM
I think they can develop into the top two bigs because they both have great post moves and footwork that they use to create for themselves and yet to reach thier primes. Most likely thier peaks will be longer and they're less likely to suffer a severe injuy (a la dirk kg duncan). There could be a time in the future where the top young bigs today fade away and the next crop are pre peak where LMA and Cousins are the top two, cousins does nees to gtfo of sactown tho.

SeoulBeatz
09-18-2014, 08:38 AM
Anthony Davis will be in the conversation shortly. I love what he does on both ends of the court.

SeoulBeatz
09-18-2014, 08:41 AM
I've been saying this for the last two years, LMA is the best PF in the game right now and DMC is the best Center. But if Davis plays out of his mind next season he will get my vote.

I just think Love is overrated as hell on here & I love Noah but DMC brings more to the table than him.

Depends on the roster. If you have the offensive support around him, give me Noah all day. If you need a dependable post scorer than DMC takes it. But Noah's rebounding, defense, passing (he's the best passing big man in the game IMO), and leadership qualities (which DMC has none of thus far) cannot be overlooked here.

ManningToTyree
09-18-2014, 08:42 AM
Davis will be regarded as the best all around big man after the season

2-ONE-5
09-18-2014, 08:45 AM
no neither is close to being in the top 2.

i know its the offseason and not much is going on but come on now this is nearly as bad as the Irving vs Hill thread

nycericanguy
09-18-2014, 09:01 AM
no neither is close to being in the top 2.

i know its the offseason and not much is going on but come on now this is nearly as bad as the Irving vs Hill thread

lol seriously... LMA with his 23ppg on 21 shots? That's worse than JR Smith type efficiency.

I get that he had some great games in the playoffs, but even in the playoffs he still needed 23 shots per game to score 26 points. He's a volume scorer that plays a ton of minutes because he's young and healthy so he puts up big numbers. But out of all the 20ppg scorers in the league he had the lowest eFG%... well 2nd lowest right above Derozan.

And DMC... no...just no., He's the JR Rider of this generation. A dominant center and "top 2 big man" as OP says would at least have his team in the hunt for playoffs... guy puts up empty stats and has a career 46% fg... that's pathetic for a big man. Shaq was around 60% every year and never once shot below 50%... DMC has been below 50% every year in the league.

MrfadeawayJB
09-18-2014, 09:08 AM
Normally I'd totally disagree, but I kind of see your angle. The truth is, it's gotten to the point where nobody really stands out as the best

True Sports Fan
09-18-2014, 10:07 AM
I don't think Cousins is there quite yet, but I don't think he's too far off. No reason he can't be the best C in the league if he continues to work his *** off

FlashBolt
09-18-2014, 10:10 AM
DeMarcus Cousins? Better than Blake? LA better than Love? Yeah... RIGHT!

JasonJohnHorn
09-18-2014, 10:20 AM
I'd take Davis and Griffin over those two in a heart beat.

JustinTime
09-18-2014, 10:35 AM
LMA was ridiculous in the Playoffs so he should definitely be up there. I'd definitely take LMA over Howard/Cousins/Nowitski/Love right now.

valade16
09-18-2014, 10:49 AM
Until Lopez got there that team was awful, and he was a big reason. Doesn't protect the paint and gets pushed around easily. One season of stats with a good defensive center doesn't wash away years of being below average.

He wasn't below average previously. In fact, there were articles talking about how he was a good defender long before last season. He is not a rim protector in the sense that he helps on D for others, but as a man to man defender, he is a good one.

Also, he got pushed around by Dwight. Not many players don't get pushed around by Dwight.

valade16
09-18-2014, 10:52 AM
meh aldridge offensively last year was pretty brutal. 45.8% with only 15 3pt attempts. that is beyond chucker level. its pretty telling that he was 3rd on his team in ws/48 and just barely above matthews.

This is where the stat argument starts to lose it for me. As a Blazer fan I can say he was the biggest reason we were a winner to the degree we were.

The entire reason the Blazers strategy works is because teams have to guard and double LMA, it's literally what opens everything else up on our offense. He was the most important player on our team last season.

nycericanguy
09-18-2014, 11:07 AM
This is where the stat argument starts to lose it for me. As a Blazer fan I can say he was the biggest reason we were a winner to the degree we were.

The entire reason the Blazers strategy works is because teams have to guard and double LMA, it's literally what opens everything else up on our offense. He was the most important player on our team last season.

i'm not a big stat head, but 23 points on 21 shots is just awful no matter how you slice it. especially for a big man.

LMA "led" POR to 33 wins the year before... POR made the jump because they have a really good all around team. And Lilliard is a star now as well, and Lopez shored up their defense. They went from one of the worst defensive teams to middle of the pack last year... Lopez has to get a lot of credit there.

LMA is a good player, but it's silly to say a big man that shoots 45% is top 2 in the league as OP is saying. Very few all star 20ppg big men have been as inefficient offensively as LMA.

valade16
09-18-2014, 11:21 AM
i'm not a big stat head, but 23 points on 21 shots is just awful no matter how you slice it. especially for a big man.

LMA "led" POR to 33 wins the year before... POR made the jump because they have a really good all around team. And Lilliard is a star now as well, and Lopez shored up their defense. They went from one of the worst defensive teams to middle of the pack last year... Lopez has to get a lot of credit there.

LMA is a good player, but it's silly to say a big man that shoots 45% is top 2 in the league as OP is saying. Very few all star 20ppg big men have been as inefficient offensively as LMA.

Are we really going to use this argument? Love hasn't "led" a team to the playoffs ever. What does that mean? It means the supporting cast wasn't very good. Nothing more and nothing less. Yes, LMA has a good team around him, so did every star whose team made it to the 2nd round of the playoffs. So unless I can use that argument for Blake Griffin and Tim Duncan, it really is pretty irrelevant here.

Yes, LMA had a very low efficiency this season. But you act like this has been his whole career. The previous 3 seasons he had higher TS%'s and FG%'s. He hasn't been this inefficient a chucker his entire career, so it seems silly people somehow got that notion.

LMA had a great series vs Houston. He showed exactly how much he means to the team and what he is capable of. Is he top 2 in the league? Probably not. But he is good at pretty much everything and can certainly be counted on when it matters.

True Sports Fan
09-18-2014, 11:32 AM
DeMarcus Cousins? Better than Blake? LA better than Love? Yeah... RIGHT!
Griffin doesn't play Center though.

Rockice_8
09-18-2014, 11:58 AM
Hope Brook Lopez can stay healthy. He's pretty unstoppable in the paint and can shoot just as well from the outside. He's much improved as a paint protector as well. Needs to rebound a bit more but overall he's definitely one of the best bigs in this league.

Jeffy25
09-18-2014, 12:20 PM
I love how people say these guys have passed Dwight

Evidence?

Cousins is fantastic, so is LMA. But so are Dwight, Love, and Davis

Jeffy25
09-18-2014, 12:27 PM
i'm not a big stat head, but 23 points on 21 shots is just awful no matter how you slice it. especially for a big man.

LMA "led" POR to 33 wins the year before... POR made the jump because they have a really good all around team. And Lilliard is a star now as well, and Lopez shored up their defense. They went from one of the worst defensive teams to middle of the pack last year... Lopez has to get a lot of credit there.

LMA is a good player, but it's silly to say a big man that shoots 45% is top 2 in the league as OP is saying. Very few all star 20ppg big men have been as inefficient offensively as LMA.

i wish this argument would go the way of the dodo bird

It's the dumbest argument people make, and it happens consistently in the NBA forum.

No player can win alone! Nobody can 'lead' anyone anywhere in the NBA. While it's more of an individual sport than say baseball or football, it's still way too much of a team game.

People like the narrative that an individual is why a team is great (Jordan, Magic, Kobe, Bird, whatever). People act like these guys won by themselves, and somehow forget that they always won with hall of famers, or at least with other highly efficient, very supportive casts. Nobody can win alone.

If Portland only wins 33 games, that sure as hell isn't LMA's fault. Maybe it's because Hickson was the only other player that had a 18.0 PER, and Lillard and Batum were at least average players (slightly better) and then the rest of the roster sucked high tit.

This year, they won 54 games, and LMA was basically the same player in the regular season (shot a little more, but overall the same player). But Robin Lopez and Wesley Matthews were much improved for their roster and Leonard, Claver, and Myers aren't getting significant minutes on this roster.


You can't win alone in the NBA, so people need to stop ranking players based on their entire team. This isn't a one on one sport.

IKnowHoops
09-18-2014, 12:51 PM
i'm not a big stat head, but 23 points on 21 shots is just awful no matter how you slice it. especially for a big man.

LMA "led" POR to 33 wins the year before... POR made the jump because they have a really good all around team. And Lilliard is a star now as well, and Lopez shored up their defense. They went from one of the worst defensive teams to middle of the pack last year... Lopez has to get a lot of credit there.

LMA is a good player, but it's silly to say a big man that shoots 45% is top 2 in the league as OP is saying. Very few all star 20ppg big men have been as inefficient offensively as LMA.

This is kind of off topic, but this is why I rank a guy like the Admiral in the top 10 all-time. The success he had with no where near the talent that LMA had, to get way more double and triple teams than LMA, to still shoot way above 50%, to still lead his team much much further, and to score nearly 30pts a game and lead the league in scoring, all while having the highest win shares, and PER. That kind of stuff just is not done any more. Only Lebron has been able to recreate those kind of stats and dominance with crap as his surrounding talent. To call Cousins the best big in the game and he can't even get into the playoffs, where as the Admiral, with equal surrounding talent could take his team to the western conference finals. I know none is saying LMA and Cousins are anywhere near the Admiral, but still, what he was able to do on the court considering his teammates would be mind blowing in this day and age.

IKnowHoops
09-18-2014, 12:54 PM
i wish this argument would go the way of the dodo bird

It's the dumbest argument people make, and it happens consistently in the NBA forum.

No player can win alone! Nobody can 'lead' anyone anywhere in the NBA. While it's more of an individual sport than say baseball or football, it's still way too much of a team game.

People like the narrative that an individual is why a team is great (Jordan, Magic, Kobe, Bird, whatever). People act like these guys won by themselves, and somehow forget that they always won with hall of famers, or at least with other highly efficient, very supportive casts. Nobody can win alone.

If Portland only wins 33 games, that sure as hell isn't LMA's fault. Maybe it's because Hickson was the only other player that had a 18.0 PER, and Lillard and Batum were at least average players (slightly better) and then the rest of the roster sucked high tit.

This year, they won 54 games, and LMA was basically the same player in the regular season (shot a little more, but overall the same player). But Robin Lopez and Wesley Matthews were much improved for their roster and Leonard, Claver, and Myers aren't getting significant minutes on this roster.


You can't win alone in the NBA, so people need to stop ranking players based on their entire team. This isn't a one on one sport.

Unless your name is David Robinson, or Lebron James.

D-Leethal
09-18-2014, 01:16 PM
Best isn't the right word. "Most Complete" I can jive with (still disagree) but definitely not best.

mightybosstone
09-18-2014, 01:19 PM
Unless your name is David Robinson, or Lebron James.

No credit to Barry, Hakeem or Duncan, who won titles without legitimate No. 2s on the roster?

D-Leethal
09-18-2014, 01:20 PM
This is where the stat argument starts to lose it for me. As a Blazer fan I can say he was the biggest reason we were a winner to the degree we were.

The entire reason the Blazers strategy works is because teams have to guard and double LMA, it's literally what opens everything else up on our offense. He was the most important player on our team last season.

Agreed, you can miss a shot and still benefit your offense. Taking shots opens it up for the rest of the squad, whether it goes in or not. People ignore the nuances of the 5-man-on-a-string game and the impact one guy can have on the other four, and instead isolate the 5 and analyze them that way.

I had this argument a million times 2 years back when Knicks had a brilliant offense spearheaded by two "inefficient chuckers" in Melo and JR. Dudes actually told me with a straight face Tyson Chandler and his thru the roof efficiency was the reason the Knicks offense was so good.

LMA takes the shots because his team relies on him to take the tough shots, to make the tough plays, and they feed off that, whether those tough shots go in or not.

Jamiecballer
09-18-2014, 01:54 PM
We saw what LA did in the playoffs. Then if you've been watching Cousins this summer he's been equally impressive. They shoot, actually have post moves, defend, and their footwork is great.

Griffin is in the conversation as well but when you compare his touch and fundamentals to these guys it's an entirely different story.

i wouldn't put either of them in the top 2, although i do believe Cousins definitely has the ability if he can get his head out of his ***.

Griffin for sure, and i'd have to think more about who the other would be.

Jamiecballer
09-18-2014, 01:58 PM
Both are pretty worthless defensively, at positions where it's almost a necessity. I can think of 5 bigs easily better than both.

tend to agree. not the worthless part, but the general sentiment. they both leave a lot to be desired on that end.

Jamiecballer
09-18-2014, 02:02 PM
i wish this argument would go the way of the dodo bird

It's the dumbest argument people make, and it happens consistently in the NBA forum.

No player can win alone! Nobody can 'lead' anyone anywhere in the NBA. While it's more of an individual sport than say baseball or football, it's still way too much of a team game.

People like the narrative that an individual is why a team is great (Jordan, Magic, Kobe, Bird, whatever). People act like these guys won by themselves, and somehow forget that they always won with hall of famers, or at least with other highly efficient, very supportive casts. Nobody can win alone.

If Portland only wins 33 games, that sure as hell isn't LMA's fault. Maybe it's because Hickson was the only other player that had a 18.0 PER, and Lillard and Batum were at least average players (slightly better) and then the rest of the roster sucked high tit.

This year, they won 54 games, and LMA was basically the same player in the regular season (shot a little more, but overall the same player). But Robin Lopez and Wesley Matthews were much improved for their roster and Leonard, Claver, and Myers aren't getting significant minutes on this roster.


You can't win alone in the NBA, so people need to stop ranking players based on their entire team. This isn't a one on one sport.

i think you might have missed the whole significance of the air quotes jeffy.

Sly Guy
09-18-2014, 06:43 PM
We saw what LA did in the playoffs. Then if you've been watching Cousins this summer he's been equally impressive. They shoot, actually have post moves, defend, and their footwork is great.

Griffin is in the conversation as well but when you compare his touch and fundamentals to these guys it's an entirely different story.

I'd find it hard to argue with you. But I wouldn't necessarily take them both 1&2 on my team, other factors like 'basket case' come into play when devising a roster.

JEDean89
09-18-2014, 06:55 PM
My Big Rankings
1) Anthony Davis, imo the best 2 way big in the game
2) Noah, his game = wins which should count big time
3) Howard, 2nd best 2 way big in the game imo, though his offense trails his d
4) Love, the best offensive big in the game
5) Cousins, the second best offensive big in the game
6) Ibaka, the 3rd best 2 way big in the game
7) Gasol, a true force
8) Jefferson, 20 and 10 can't be overlooked
9) Lopez, would be really high on this list if healthy
10) Drummond, dude is gonna be something ridiculous.

Jahlil, Karl Towns Jr, Noel, Embiid, Thon and Matur Maker and many more bigs are coming. I personally think we are about to enter a new golden age of C's.

2-ONE-5
09-19-2014, 09:05 AM
^ Move Gasol and Big Al to 5 and 6 and your spot on. Gasol and Jefferson showed how valuable they really are this past season. Grizz were all but done until Gasol came back and Al was nothing short of spectacular in Charlotte and een played medicore or better defense

valade16
09-19-2014, 09:06 AM
My Big Rankings
1) Anthony Davis, imo the best 2 way big in the game
2) Noah, his game = wins which should count big time
3) Howard, 2nd best 2 way big in the game imo, though his offense trails his d
4) Love, the best offensive big in the game
5) Cousins, the second best offensive big in the game
6) Ibaka, the 3rd best 2 way big in the game
7) Gasol, a true force
8) Jefferson, 20 and 10 can't be overlooked
9) Lopez, would be really high on this list if healthy
10) Drummond, dude is gonna be something ridiculous.

Jahlil, Karl Towns Jr, Noel, Embiid, Thon and Matur Maker and many more bigs are coming. I personally think we are about to enter a new golden age of C's.

But 23 and 11 can? Heck, you even left off Blake Griffin, and Dirk, and Duncan. Terrible list.

tredigs
09-19-2014, 10:11 AM
Contracts aside, if you offered me either for Gasol, Davis, Griffin, Noah or Drummond straight up I would hang up the phone.

imbetterthanyou
09-19-2014, 10:30 AM
Contracts aside, if you offered me either for Gasol, Davis, Griffin, Noah or Drummond straight up I would hang up the phone.

If you were offered Cousins or LMA straight up for Drummond you'd hang up the phone? Thank god you're not an NBA GM

tredigs
09-19-2014, 10:37 AM
If you were offered Cousins or LMA straight up for Drummond you'd hang up the phone? Thank god you're not an NBA GM

For the 20 year old that already averages 14 and 13 on 62% from the field with massive defensive potential and an unbelievable combo of size + athletic ability? For those two? Yes. Before they could finish their sentence.

Heatcheck
09-19-2014, 11:02 AM
My Big Rankings
1) Anthony Davis, imo the best 2 way big in the game
2) Noah, his game = wins which should count big time
3) Howard, 2nd best 2 way big in the game imo, though his offense trails his d
4) Love, the best offensive big in the game
5) Cousins, the second best offensive big in the game
6) Ibaka, the 3rd best 2 way big in the game
7) Gasol, a true force
8) Jefferson, 20 and 10 can't be overlooked
9) Lopez, would be really high on this list if healthy
10) Drummond, dude is gonna be something ridiculous.

Jahlil, Karl Towns Jr, Noel, Embiid, Thon and Matur Maker and many more bigs are coming. I personally think we are about to enter a new golden age of C's.

Your list would imply you have something personal against griffin.
And Duncan is better than all of them.

IndyRealist
09-19-2014, 11:22 AM
Your list would imply you have something personal against griffin.
And Duncan is better than all of them.

I'd say Duncan WAS better than all of them. And he can still be in spurts, but certainly not for an entire playoffs let alone a season.

If you factor in age and salary, i think you take Davis, Love, or Drummond hands down.

If it's just, "who would i take for JUST next year?" It would be Love or Davis.

tredigs
09-19-2014, 11:32 AM
Somehow entirely forgot about Love. Clearly him too.

da ThRONe
09-19-2014, 12:43 PM
If this is about the future than I can see Drummond and Davis coming into the discussion. As of now IMO neither are better than Cousins or Aldridge. The people I think at the 4 spots that are in their leagues are Griffin, Love, Bosh(I think he will re-emerge now he should be the #1 option), and at the 5 spot is Howard.

nycericanguy
09-19-2014, 02:00 PM
I'd say Duncan WAS better than all of them. And he can still be in spurts, but certainly not for an entire playoffs let alone a season.

If you factor in age and salary, i think you take Davis, Love, or Drummond hands down.

If it's just, "who would i take for JUST next year?" It would be Love or Davis.

Duncan played 74 games and 29mpg.

PER 36 he produced 18.7ppg/12rpg/3.7apg/2.3bpg

But of course at this stage he can't give you 36mpg game anymore like LMA does.

That being said, factoring in defense, efficiency and passing, I'd take Duncan for 29 minutes vs LMA for 36.

D-Leethal
09-19-2014, 02:05 PM
Duncan played 74 games and 29mpg.

PER 36 he produced 18.7ppg/12rpg/3.7apg/2.3bpg

But of course at this stage he can't give you 36mpg game anymore like LMA does.

That being said, factoring in defense, efficiency and passing, I'd take Duncan for 29 minutes vs LMA for 36.

I'd take Duncan over him too. But as far as LMA and his crappy shooting percentages, when your the kingpin of the offense and your offense is one of the best in the league, you are doing something very right, and its not the popular belief that everyone else is contributing at a high level despite LMA, everyone else is contributing BECAUSE of LMA, the attention he garners, and the pressure he puts on the defense.

prodigy
09-19-2014, 02:55 PM
I like Davis, Gasol, Noah, Griffin, and Dwight equally to LA and more than cousins for my team.

They all bring a LOT.

Drummond I think will be great too eventually.

Noah? Lol OK... if u want defense sure but Noah's offense is not even close to a bunch of other bigs in the league.

tredigs
09-19-2014, 03:03 PM
Noah? Lol OK... if u want defense sure but Noah's offense is not even close to a bunch of other bigs in the league.

He's a center who scores in double digits, can hit a FT and averaged nearly 6 assists a game when it was asked of him this year, I'd say most centers are not on his level offensively.

nycericanguy
09-19-2014, 03:40 PM
I'd take Duncan over him too. But as far as LMA and his crappy shooting percentages, when your the kingpin of the offense and your offense is one of the best in the league, you are doing something very right, and its not the popular belief that everyone else is contributing at a high level despite LMA, everyone else is contributing BECAUSE of LMA, the attention he garners, and the pressure he puts on the defense.

He does get credit and he deserves it, but now he's starting to become overrated, top 2 big man? Not even close. I'd take

Duncan
Love
Marc
Dwight
Bosh
Dirk
Blake
Noah
Davis

over him. Some on that list are debatable, but most are CLEARLY better.

I think your arguments apply well to Melo, or AI back in the day, those guys HAD to take the tough shots and they had to take bail out shots all the time because they had no one else on the team.

But LMA has legit star players around him, Lillard is a stud, Matthews is a deadly shooter, and Batum is a good offensive weapon. If anything he should be MORE efficient with those guys around him, not less.

D-Leethal
09-19-2014, 04:36 PM
He does get credit and he deserves it, but now he's starting to become overrated, top 2 big man? Not even close. I'd take

Duncan
Love
Marc
Dwight
Bosh
Dirk
Blake
Noah
Davis

over him. Some on that list are debatable, but most are CLEARLY better.

I think your arguments apply well to Melo, or AI back in the day, those guys HAD to take the tough shots and they had to take bail out shots all the time because they had no one else on the team.

But LMA has legit star players around him, Lillard is a stud, Matthews is a deadly shooter, and Batum is a good offensive weapon. If anything he should be MORE efficient with those guys around him, not less.

I am just of the belief when your top banana on offense, your the guy who takes the most shots, your the guy who gets the ball in tough spots, your the guy who is relied on more than anyone else, and your teams offense is a well oiled machine like Portland's is, it's because that guy is doing a lot of things right. Looking at his individual stats to judge his offensive impact is short sighted. We should be looking at how the offense hums around him.

I agree they have some nice weapons around him, and those weapons around him as the top gun formed one of the best offenses in the league. I also think he is asked to take tough shots, I have actually read a quote from him saying how those are the shots they gameplan for him to take, and he added how it was paradoxical because those are also the same shots they try to force teams to take defensively.

Pretty cool article here that backs my point in that it does not matter whether your making a ton of the mid range shots - they are helping the rest of the team by shooting them. It is a fine line though, and the article does a good job explaining that at the end.

Weird how something every team wants you to do defensively, can also be something that benefits your own team offensively. Gotta love hoops.

Snippet on Aldridge:


Let's take a brief look at Portland as well. Intriguingly, Portland has atypically ran almost every possession through LaMarcus Aldridge (who took 63.8% of his shots from midrange this past season), which benefits them no matter how well Aldridge was shooting (remember, Aldridge only hit 5 of 15 jumpers in first game versus Houston, but still emerged with 46 points and the win). The pure threat of Aldridge's shooting is enough to warp defenses; Aldridge's shooting opens up drives, threes, and even a handful of midrange shots for fellow big Robin Lopez. With Aldridge on the floor, the Blazers shot a net of +5.21 3pt%, and they posted +5.26 more net assists per 100 possessions.

Good read: https://www.swishanalytics.com/blog/stretch-bigs-5-20-2014

Tony_Starks
09-19-2014, 06:08 PM
LMA's nice weapons around him are only nice because he puts so much pressure on the defense and makes the game easier for him.

Almost reminds of Kobe who people still hate on for taking a bunch of shots. Do you really think the likes of Odom, Fisher, Gasol ( who had never even won a playoff game before) and others would of been that good without Kobe demanding all that defensive gameplanning and attention? Would a competent coach really run their offense through a LMA or Kobe without thinking the team would get max benefits?

Tony_Starks
09-19-2014, 06:10 PM
LMA's nice weapons around him are only nice because he puts so much pressure on the defense and makes the game easier for him.

Almost reminds of Kobe who people still hate on for taking a bunch of shots. Do you really think the likes of Odom, Fisher, Gasol ( who had never even won a playoff game before) and others would of been that good without Kobe demanding all that defensive gameplanning and attention? Would a competent coach really run their offense through a LMA or Kobe without thinking the team would get max benefits?

The game is more than shot attempts and fg%....

da ThRONe
09-19-2014, 07:46 PM
LMA's nice weapons around him are only nice because he puts so much pressure on the defense and makes the game easier for him.

Almost reminds of Kobe who people still hate on for taking a bunch of shots. Do you really think the likes of Odom, Fisher, Gasol ( who had never even won a playoff game before) and others would of been that good without Kobe demanding all that defensive gameplanning and attention? Would a competent coach really run their offense through a LMA or Kobe without thinking the team would get max benefits?

The game is more than shot attempts and fg%....

Or PER or TS% or all the other advance stats. People fall in love with statistics, but IMO it's only a part of grading players.

DillyDill
09-19-2014, 07:51 PM
Best C= Superman
Best PF= Griffin

I love athletic freaks!!!

da ThRONe
09-19-2014, 07:55 PM
Best C= Superman
Best PF= Griffin

I love athletic freaks!!!

Not just there athletic abilities, but there impacts on their respective teams. These are also my top players at the 4 and 5.

DillyDill
09-19-2014, 08:03 PM
Not just there athletic abilities, but there impacts on their respective teams. These are also my top players at the 4 and 5.

True their impact is undeniable because always game-planned for. But mostly I love the way they can yamm it on anybody at anytime it crazzzzzzyyy

bucketss
09-19-2014, 09:34 PM
LMA's nice weapons around him are only nice because he puts so much pressure on the defense and makes the game easier for him.

Almost reminds of Kobe who people still hate on for taking a bunch of shots. Do you really think the likes of Odom, Fisher, Gasol ( who had never even won a playoff game before) and others would of been that good without Kobe demanding all that defensive gameplanning and attention? Would a competent coach really run their offense through a LMA or Kobe without thinking the team would get max benefits?

lol now i know why you like Aldridge

JEDean89
09-19-2014, 10:17 PM
But 23 and 11 can? Heck, you even left off Blake Griffin, and Dirk, and Duncan. Terrible list.

ya ma b, i was pretty high when i wrote that. in retrospect i would put Dirk, Duncan and Griffin all above Cousins and Love.

flea
09-19-2014, 10:53 PM
I agree that LMA gets underrated when you look strictly at TS%, but he's still a poor man's Dirk. And his teams, when they didn't have the likes of Lopez, prime Gerald Wallace and Camby, we're awful defensively. Even if he's tough 1v1 he has never been tasked with many responsibilities and hasn't helped his team out much at all. Dirk gets a bad rap for his defense but I think his positioning is pretty good, even if he's not physical or long enough to shut down the paint. Then again, if you play in the Duncan era as a PF you're held to an impossibly high defensive standard.

IKnowHoops
09-20-2014, 12:52 AM
He's a center who scores in double digits, can hit a FT and averaged nearly 6 assists a game when it was asked of him this year, I'd say most centers are not on his level offensively.

But if your talking about the best scoring bigs, he is not one of them. In todays NBA he's not bad I guess, but thats just because of how weak todays NBA is concerning centers. I saw Beasley shut him down last year. Thats not an indicator of good offense.

Tony_Starks
09-20-2014, 01:40 AM
I agree that LMA gets underrated when you look strictly at TS%, but he's still a poor man's Dirk. And his teams, when they didn't have the likes of Lopez, prime Gerald Wallace and Camby, we're awful defensively. Even if he's tough 1v1 he has never been tasked with many responsibilities and hasn't helped his team out much at all. Dirk gets a bad rap for his defense but I think his positioning is pretty good, even if he's not physical or long enough to shut down the paint. Then again, if you play in the Duncan era as a PF you're held to an impossibly high defensive standard.

I'm curious how you can say he's never helped his team when he took a team that was projected to be a lotto team to the 2nd round of the playoffs? They even hovered around the best record in the west for a while....

In fact Portlands toughest stretch of the season was when he got hurt and missed some games.

IKnowHoops
09-20-2014, 02:23 AM
No credit to Barry, Hakeem or Duncan, who won titles without legitimate No. 2s on the roster?

Ill give credit to Hakeem, also in my top 10. Duncan had an all around solid team and Pop coaching, but he is still in my top 10. I don't know enough about what Barry did. David just donesnt get the same credit as Hakeem and Duncan though he should. They are all very close.

DemarDerozan
09-20-2014, 04:09 AM
LOL at Dwight being the best C in the league.
The only major accomplishment he has had outside of DPOY is going to the finals once... In a weak Eastern Conference, that ECF run had more to do with SVG as any Spurs titles had to do with Pop. Also, Dwight has declined significantly since 2010. He may put up some stats but has rescinded talent wise.
SVG turned Turk and Nelson into all star caliber players... While Dwight just *****ed and moaned similar to his brief LAL days,
D12 is severely overrated. He has destroyed his own prime with his stubborn mentality and has been far surpasses by the likes of Davis, DMC, Noah, M Gasol and maybe even Drummond.
D12 is a joke and will be fully exposed this year.

flea
09-20-2014, 09:58 AM
I'm curious how you can say he's never helped his team when he took a team that was projected to be a lotto team to the 2nd round of the playoffs? They even hovered around the best record in the west for a while....

In fact Portlands toughest stretch of the season was when he got hurt and missed some games.

I was speaking defensively. He's one of the better offensive big men in the game.

TheCatch
09-21-2014, 03:50 PM
The two best 6'11 and up players in the game today are Tim Duncan and Dirk Nowitzki.

Howard, Cousins, D. Jordan, Drummund and anyone else have too many flaws and aren't even fundamentally sound.

You have to have the fundamentals before you can even be good.

Jamiecballer
09-21-2014, 03:59 PM
The two best 6'11 and up players in the game today are Tim Duncan and Dirk Nowitzki.

Howard, Cousins, D. Jordan, Drummund and anyone else have too many flaws and aren't even fundamentally sound.

You have to have the fundamentals before you can even be good.
I agree.

On one hand we've got a thread calling this a golden age of basketball, in another someone calling Cousins and Aldridge the best 2 bigs in the league. One of these two is clearly lying LOL

prodigy
09-21-2014, 06:44 PM
Noah? Lol OK... if u want defense sure but Noah's offense is not even close to a bunch of other bigs in the league.

He's a center who scores in double digits, can hit a FT and averaged nearly 6 assists a game when it was asked of him this year, I'd say most centers are not on his level offensively.

Which is why they lost, little offense.... if you think noah is on the same or higher level scoring wise then love, LA, cousins etc... your a ummm, Ill just stop.

Noah is a good Player no question. Defender, rebounder, good passing big man. Centers should not be best passers on the team lol. I'd much rather have a center who scores 20 then one who gets 5 assist. Because u prob lack play makers if that's the case.

I mean av for the cavs does a lot of the same things Noah does. Hustle, rebound, defend. Is he also a top center? Not to me and I'm a cavs fan. Love Noah and av And would love either on my team. But let's be real lol.

Btw- Noah is a better player then av, I wanna make sure that's clear. But game styles same and numbers not far off.

FlashBolt
09-21-2014, 11:47 PM
If I'm constructing a team and I need a Center, I'm going with Joakim Noah. This dude is just a beast and I love his game. High energy, hustles every play, great motivator, rebounds, elite defender, amazing passer, and finishes at the rim. Nothing else you can ask for in a center other than expecting him to be Hakeem or Shaq.

TheCatch
09-22-2014, 01:16 PM
If I'm constructing a team and I need a Center, I'm going with Joakim Noah. This dude is just a beast and I love his game. High energy, hustles every play, great motivator, rebounds, elite defender, amazing passer, and finishes at the rim. Nothing else you can ask for in a center other than expecting him to be Hakeem or Shaq.

I'd probably take Howard because of age, but if it's for like one season or whatever I'd take Duncan.

Howard is better overall than Noah.

Verbal Christ
09-22-2014, 07:24 PM
LOL at Dwight being the best C in the league.
The only major accomplishment he has had outside of DPOY is going to the finals once... In a weak Eastern Conference, that ECF run had more to do with SVG as any Spurs titles had to do with Pop. Also, Dwight has declined significantly since 2010. He may put up some stats but has rescinded talent wise.
SVG turned Turk and Nelson into all star caliber players... While Dwight just *****ed and moaned similar to his brief LAL days,
D12 is severely overrated. He has destroyed his own prime with his stubborn mentality and has been far surpasses by the likes of Davis, DMC, Noah, M Gasol and maybe even Drummond.
D12 is a joke and will be fully exposed this year.


Howard coming back from injury last year brand new system = 18/12/2 PER 21.36 Playoffs = 26/14/4

Yeah, THIS is the year he gets exposed ... for sure. LOL

Leftcoast_yg
09-22-2014, 08:18 PM
Well LMA out played Howard in the playoffs. So yeah....

TheCatch
09-22-2014, 08:33 PM
The Rockets offense was inefficient that is the real reason they lost to the Blazers. Rockets shot too many threes. Harden is the reason they lost amoung players. He shot like 38% right? I might have to check that, but I'm probably right. You're probably not going to win in the first round of playoffs especially the West with a SG taking roughly 25-30 shots not counting free throws and only making roughly 9-10 of those shots. That's just far too many wasted shots.

koreancabbage
09-22-2014, 09:46 PM
Well LMA out played Howard in the playoffs. So yeah....

it would help if Howard got more of the ball to play with but yea, one series doesn't mean anything.

People already giving LMA kudos bc he had one great season and playoffs while Howard has had many more.

Shammyguy3
09-22-2014, 10:57 PM
LMA is certainly not worthless defensively. Of all the superstar PFs he is the best defender of the bunch. He was 8th for PFs in DWS last season, he had the lowest Drtg on the Blazers and he held opponents to under 50% shooting at the rim.

To say he's worthless defensively is a comically bad understanding of his defense.

DWS is bleh, DRtg is meh, and under 50% is solid

Look at Carlos Boozer this past year. One of the worst defenders in the game. He had 0.8 more defensive win shares than LMA. His DRtg was better than Taj Gibson's. He was only 0.1 DWS behind Taj hthis past year.

Just saying, it's hadr to say LMA is a solid defender based off of those two stats as being focal points of your reasoing.

bucketss
09-22-2014, 11:20 PM
LOL at Dwight being the best C in the league.
The only major accomplishment he has had outside of DPOY is going to the finals once... In a weak Eastern Conference, that ECF run had more to do with SVG as any Spurs titles had to do with Pop. Also, Dwight has declined significantly since 2010. He may put up some stats but has rescinded talent wise.
SVG turned Turk and Nelson into all star caliber players... While Dwight just *****ed and moaned similar to his brief LAL days,
D12 is severely overrated. He has destroyed his own prime with his stubborn mentality and has been far surpasses by the likes of Davis, DMC, Noah, M Gasol and maybe even Drummond.
D12 is a joke and will be fully exposed this year.

so what have those guys you mentioned accomplished in comparison to dwight? you're gonna dog dwight for not having major accomplishments but the dudes you listed havent done squat. two of them hasn't even made an allstar game.

Corey
09-22-2014, 11:35 PM
LMA is so overrated his efficiency for a big is so low even without 3 point shooting.

The 'efficiency' you're referring to doesn't factor turnovers. Of the 38 player in the NBA that account for at least 25% of their team's USG%, Aldridge ranks tied for second in terms of fewest turnovers.

Additionally, the true shooting percentages of all four of the other POR starters drops when Aldridge is out of the game, so he plays a large role in the efficiency of his teammates.

They also average 6 more points per 100 possessions when he's in the game opposed to when he's out.

Munkeysuit
09-22-2014, 11:38 PM
Anthony Davis wants a word with you...

valade16
09-23-2014, 10:15 AM
DWS is bleh, DRtg is meh, and under 50% is solid

Look at Carlos Boozer this past year. One of the worst defenders in the game. He had 0.8 more defensive win shares than LMA. His DRtg was better than Taj Gibson's. He was only 0.1 DWS behind Taj hthis past year.

Just saying, it's hadr to say LMA is a solid defender based off of those two stats as being focal points of your reasoing.

That's why I also used his rim protection. LMA is a good defender for his position. He's not one of the best guys in the league but he is certainly not a minus on that end at all.


The 'efficiency' you're referring to doesn't factor turnovers. Of the 38 player in the NBA that account for at least 25% of their team's USG%, Aldridge ranks tied for second in terms of fewest turnovers.

Additionally, the true shooting percentages of all four of the other POR starters drops when Aldridge is out of the game, so he plays a large role in the efficiency of his teammates.

They also average 6 more points per 100 possessions when he's in the game opposed to when he's out.

Exactly, these are the kind of residual impacts people don't see when they only look at a players personal stats and not what his presence on the court does for his teammates. LMA is literally the central cog that makes the entire Portland offense work. The only reason Lillard, Batum and Wes are getting so many open 3's is because the other team has to focus and double LMA or he'll kill you, which then opens things up.

I mean, when talking about 2 way players, can anyone name more than a few players that are as good as LMA on offense and markedly better on defense? Dirk, Duncan, Davis, ?...

valade16
09-23-2014, 10:19 AM
The two best 6'11 and up players in the game today are Tim Duncan and Dirk Nowitzki.

Here's what I tried to explain in the redrafts. Duncan and Dirk play 29 and 32 mins per game. So the question isn't "Is Tim Duncan better than LMA" it's "are 29 mins of Duncan more valuable than 36 mins of LMA?".

I don't think so.

flea
09-23-2014, 10:54 AM
That's why I also used his rim protection. LMA is a good defender for his position. He's not one of the best guys in the league but he is certainly not a minus on that end at all.



Exactly, these are the kind of residual impacts people don't see when they only look at a players personal stats and not what his presence on the court does for his teammates. LMA is literally the central cog that makes the entire Portland offense work. The only reason Lillard, Batum and Wes are getting so many open 3's is because the other team has to focus and double LMA or he'll kill you, which then opens things up.

I mean, when talking about 2 way players, can anyone name more than a few players that are as good as LMA on offense and markedly better on defense? Dirk, Duncan, Davis, ?...

Gasol, Blake, Bosh, Horford, Ibaka, and Noah I would take no question over LMA. I don't know how you can think a guy that anchors a bottom 1/3rd defense even with solid wings is "good for his position." Give him anchors and his teams are still just mediocre defensively. And the idea that Duncan, the best player on the 14 champs, is not as good because he plays 5 minutes less is hilarious.

valade16
09-23-2014, 11:06 AM
I mean, when talking about 2 way players, can anyone name more than a few players that are as good as LMA on offense and markedly better on defense? Dirk, Duncan, Davis, ?...


Gasol, Blake, Bosh, Horford, Ibaka, and Noah I would take no question over LMA. I don't know how you can think a guy that anchors a bottom 1/3rd defense even with solid wings is "good for his position." Give him anchors and his teams are still just mediocre defensively. And the idea that Duncan, the best player on the 14 champs, is not as good because he plays 5 minutes less is hilarious.

So it's your opinion then that those guys are as talented as LMA offensively? I'm sorry, but is that some kind of joke? If that opinion wasn't so hysterically terrible I would have emphasized you somehow saying Blake is markedly better on defense than LMA, because that is worth ridiculing as well.

As to the last part, I love how you somehow twist it to imply that Duncan in some way carried the team. Duncan at this point is not some #1 on that team, that team is the definition of team and no one person has to stand out and play as some sort of superstar.

Spurs WS/48:
Leonard .193
Ginobili .176
Mills .175
Duncan .164
Splitter .163

Can we stop acting like it's 2003 Tim Duncan? He isn't carrying them so much as being one of the pillars holding the collective up. Let's take off both LMA and Duncan from the Blazers and Spurs. Is there any doubt what the more talented team is?

Parker, Leonard, Ginobili, Splitter, Mills, Diaw, Green, Belinelli, Bonner

or

Lillard, Batum, Matthews, Lopez, Mo Williams, Dorell Wright, CJ McCollum, Thomas Robinson

If LMA being better because he plays 7 minutes (reading is apparently not your strongest suit) more is hilarious, I don't think we yet have a word in the english language that can sum up the sheer ridiculousness of your post. But good luck trying.

flea
09-23-2014, 11:13 AM
Minutes leader, rebounding leader, 2nd leading scorer, and best defender on a championship team. No Duncan doesn't bang on offense like he used to but he still can. His team easily put away the Blazers and the talent disparity between the 2 is not all that great now that Parker and Ginobili are past prime. Please get out with regular season win shares.

I was talking about 2 way impact with those players - who cares about offense from a PF? Defense from bigs is far more important unless you are on Dirk or Blake's level. LMA is basically a prime David Lee with worse rebounding and a more consistent jumper.

valade16
09-23-2014, 11:27 AM
Minutes leader, rebounding leader, 2nd leading scorer, and best defender on a championship team. No Duncan doesn't bang on offense like he used to but he still can. His team easily put away the Blazers and the talent disparity between the 2 is not all that great now that Parker and Ginobili are past prime. Please get out with regular season win shares.

I was talking about 2 way impact with those players - who cares about offense from a PF? Defense from bigs is far more important unless you are on Dirk or Blake's level. LMA is basically a prime David Lee with worse rebounding and a more consistent jumper.

Each point was worse than the last.

Spurs talent > > Blazers.

LMA > > Lee.

To even argue against those points gives them a tacit legitimacy when they should be relegated to the recesses of basketball thought for absurdity.

flea
09-23-2014, 11:31 AM
Lee was actually more efficient in his prime, but he's always been a guy that does best in the flow of an offense, whereas LMA likes to shoot mid range jumpers with hands in his face like he thinks he's Dirk.

flea
09-23-2014, 11:36 AM
As far as talent, believe what you want but I'm pretty sure Pop would even say 14 Spurs were not an overly talented team. Major minutes to 4 castoffs, a Euro center without an offensive game, two late 30s stars, and a defensively challenged PG over 30 who still can't shoot beyond 15 feet.

We're they the most skilled and had the best chemistry in the league? No doubt. Talented? Maybe middle of the pack.

valade16
09-23-2014, 11:56 AM
As far as talent, believe what you want but I'm pretty sure Pop would even say 14 Spurs were not an overly talented team. Major minutes to 4 castoffs, a Euro center without an offensive game, two late 30s stars, and a defensively challenged PG over 30 who still can't shoot beyond 15 feet.

We're they the most skilled and had the best chemistry in the league? No doubt. Talented? Maybe middle of the pack.

So you're trying to obfuscate the issue by arguing semantics of skill vs talent? Fine, let's just call it ability. How good you are on a Basketball court. Spurs players collectively are way better than the Blazers, even with Duncan and LMA not included.

We can see the contradiction in your point when you said "now that Parker and Ginobili are past prime".

Lol, and Duncan isn't?

flea
09-23-2014, 12:05 PM
OK bra a 49% eFG for his career PF who has never played on a top 10 defense is a top 2 big like this thread says.

D-Leethal
09-23-2014, 12:38 PM
OK bra a 49% eFG for his career PF who has never played on a top 10 defense is a top 2 big like this thread says.

I think there has been more than enough evidence in this thread to support that his "chucking" is good for the team, the teams overall offense improves when he's out there "chucking", every member of the supporting cast's individual production improves when he is out there "chucking". I think the efficiency knob slobbers on here need to re-evaluate how they judge a players impact out there and LMA is a prime example.

da ThRONe
09-23-2014, 12:52 PM
I think there has been more than enough evidence in this thread to support that his "chucking" is good for the team, the teams overall offense improves when he's out there "chucking", every member of the supporting cast's individual production improves when he is out there "chucking". I think the efficiency knob slobbers on here need to re-evaluate how they judge a players impact out there and LMA is a prime example.

When your talent demands that you are doubled of course you're going to take low percentage shots. And unless your Dirk you aren't probably going to be very efficient at those shots. So while someone like Ibaka who doesn't have to carry the offense can have an insane efficiency it doesn't mean he's the better player and this is from someone who thinks Ibaka is one of the more underrated players. Right now Ibaka IMO is better than Anthony Davis who people are saying could be the next greatest player. I judge players more so on skill-set than stats. Any player with a above average offensive skill-set can put up numbers if they are in a system geared to play to those strengths even if said skill-set is pretty limited.

BALLER R
09-23-2014, 01:31 PM
Cousins and AD are going to be the future of this league in terms of big men.

D-Leethal
09-23-2014, 01:42 PM
When your talent demands that you are doubled of course you're going to take low percentage shots. And unless your Dirk you aren't probably going to be very efficient at those shots. So while someone like Ibaka who doesn't have to carry the offense can have an insane efficiency it doesn't mean he's the better player and this is from someone who thinks Ibaka is one of the more underrated players. Right now Ibaka IMO is better than Anthony Davis who people are saying could be the next greatest player. I judge players more so on skill-set than stats. Any player with a above average offensive skill-set can put up numbers if they are in a system geared to play to those strengths even if said skill-set is pretty limited.

We see eye-to-eye my friend.

Jamiecballer
09-23-2014, 04:41 PM
The 'efficiency' you're referring to doesn't factor turnovers. Of the 38 player in the NBA that account for at least 25% of their team's USG%, Aldridge ranks tied for second in terms of fewest turnovers.

Additionally, the true shooting percentages of all four of the other POR starters drops when Aldridge is out of the game, so he plays a large role in the efficiency of his teammates.

They also average 6 more points per 100 possessions when he's in the game opposed to when he's out.

that's great but not unexpected either considering how many low percentage jumpers he takes now. he is now 100% the Melo of big men. who also incidentally doesn't turn the ball over for the exact same reason.

it's a trade off. no turnover but settle for low percentage shot.

Jamiecballer
09-23-2014, 04:46 PM
Exactly, these are the kind of residual impacts people don't see when they only look at a players personal stats and not what his presence on the court does for his teammates. LMA is literally the central cog that makes the entire Portland offense work. The only reason Lillard, Batum and Wes are getting so many open 3's is because the other team has to focus and double LMA or he'll kill you, which then opens things up.
if what you are saying in the bolded is true, it does sort of raise the question of "why?". according to basketball reference he took a whopping 1047 jumpers from 10+ feet out and only made 439 of them for 42%. that's just bad coaching.

Tony_Starks
09-23-2014, 06:12 PM
if what you are saying in the bolded is true, it does sort of raise the question of "why?". according to basketball reference he took a whopping 1047 jumpers from 10+ feet out and only made 439 of them for 42%. that's just bad coaching.

They got to the 2nd round so I would say the coaching strategy was pretty successful.

Did you expect them to go to the Finals or something?

valade16
09-23-2014, 06:22 PM
that's great but not unexpected either considering how many low percentage jumpers he takes now. he is now 100% the Melo of big men. who also incidentally doesn't turn the ball over for the exact same reason.

it's a trade off. no turnover but settle for low percentage shot.

But incorporating them would still increase his efficiency right? He is successful on 42% of the long jumpers he takes, everyone is successful on 0% of the turnovers they incur...

I mean you're making not turning the ball over into a bad thing. What would you rather do: shoot a low % shot or turn the ball over. The choice is pretty obvious...

Punk
09-23-2014, 06:31 PM
Cousins and LMA aren't even close to the best. Both are not good defensively and produce shaky scoring efficiency.

valade16
09-23-2014, 06:51 PM
They got to the 2nd round so I would say the coaching strategy was pretty successful.

Did you expect them to go to the Finals or something?

Exactly. I love how suddenly their strategy is **** when nobody predicted them to make the playoffs, let alone go to the 2nd round.

People are acting like they under-achieved. Do people think if LMA took 3-4 less shots a game they'd be in the Finals or something?

mRc08
09-23-2014, 06:52 PM
I realize that both of these players are far superior scorers to Noah, but all I'm saying is that if you swap noah from last year with either of these players, bulls miss the playoffs.

So how does that effect ranking? Not really sure, but I strongly believe this to be true.

flea
09-23-2014, 06:56 PM
Exactly. I love how suddenly their strategy is **** when nobody predicted them to make the playoffs, let alone go to the 2nd round.

People are acting like they under-achieved. Do people think if LMA took 3-4 less shots a game they'd be in the Finals or something?

No but if LMA and Lillard were better defensively they might. Their starting 5 are all in their prime and while they had a weak bench, many teams have gone to the Finals with worse ones. This team's time is now and they should be judged on their performance in the present.

D-Leethal
09-23-2014, 08:31 PM
if what you are saying in the bolded is true, it does sort of raise the question of "why?". according to basketball reference he took a whopping 1047 jumpers from 10+ feet out and only made 439 of them for 42%. that's just bad coaching.

If the TEAM excels by a significant margin while he is out there playing that way, it is good coaching. Superb coaching actually, if you can look past the trees and see the forest which they obviously do. Stop narrowing it down to 1 guy, basketball is far more complex than that. Not one team statistic agrees that LMA is hurting his team by playing the way he plays on a nightly basis.

Jamiecballer
09-23-2014, 08:33 PM
They got to the 2nd round so I would say the coaching strategy was pretty successful.

Did you expect them to go to the Finals or something?
You misunderstand. I meant the opposition.

Jamiecballer
09-23-2014, 08:35 PM
But incorporating them would still increase his efficiency right? He is successful on 42% of the long jumpers he takes, everyone is successful on 0% of the turnovers they incur...

I mean you're making not turning the ball over into a bad thing. What would you rather do: shoot a low % shot or turn the ball over. The choice is pretty obvious...
I suppose although its not as simple as you are making it seem. I could live with an extra turnover a game personally if it meant working to get higher percentage looks. That's my opinion.

Jamiecballer
09-23-2014, 08:36 PM
How did so many people read the same thing and not one could follow along lmao

If Aldridge is an inefficient jumpshooter but teams are still getting beat because they are treating him as though he was not (thus allowing his teammates the open looks) then the other teams coaches are beating themselves.

valade16
09-23-2014, 09:40 PM
How did so many people read the same thing and not one could follow along lmao

If Aldridge is an inefficient jumpshooter but teams are still getting beat because they are treating him as though he was not (thus allowing his teammates the open looks) then the other teams coaches are beating themselves.

I see what you're saying but it's misguided. The assumption is he would still be shooting 42% if he were wide open. The defenses focus on him precisely because leaving him open is a quick way to get worked. We saw what happened in game 1 vs Houston. They didn't focus on him at all and he went off.

Look, I don't think he's the best or even top 2. But he is pretty underrated on this site.

KobeTop5
09-23-2014, 10:34 PM
Seriously, what is the most amount of games Cousins has won in his career, 30? At the C position, has he ever once shot 50+ from the field?

Just stop with the overrating of Cousins.

Jeffy25
09-23-2014, 10:57 PM
Seriously, what is the most amount of games Cousins has won in his career, 30?
It's a team game, no individual can win games by themselves.


At the C position, has he ever once shot 50+ from the field? Literally shot .496 this season.
30th best in the NBA this year.



Just stop with the overrating of Cousins.

Know how many players get a 20.0 PER, 18% TRB%, and carry a .500 TS%?

All qualities of a great big man

The last two years, it's happened 8 times. Two of those times are Cousins.

Duncan has done it twice, Love once (would have done it twice, but not enough minutes the year before), Noah, Howard, and Drummond once each.

He is a quality big man.

KobeTop5
09-23-2014, 11:08 PM
It's a team game, no individual can win games by themselves.

Literally shot .496 this season.
30th best in the NBA this year.




Know how many players get a 20.0 PER, 18% TRB%, and carry a .500 TS%?

All qualities of a great big man

The last two years, it's happened 8 times. Two of those times are Cousins.

Duncan has done it twice, Love once (would have done it twice, but not enough minutes the year before), Noah, Howard, and Drummond once each.

He is a quality big man.

I'm sorry, but at no time in the history of the NBA has "the best big" in the game been such a loser. Absolutely has never happened. Great big men have a huge impact on winning.

Cousins is nowhere near the best big in the game. As of right now, he's a stat padding loser.

Jeffy25
09-23-2014, 11:18 PM
I'm sorry, but at no time in the history of the NBA has "the best big" in the game been such a loser. Absolutely has never happened. Great big men have a huge impact on winning.

Cousins is nowhere near the best big in the game. As of right now, he's a stat padding loser.

Such a loser....as in....his team not winning?

Check out Wilt's 62-63.....44.8 PPG, 24.3 RPG...team won 31 games


And I never said he was an all-time great. But he is clearly a quality big man. At the same age, he is playing like Greg Monroe, Ralph Sampson, Moses Malone, Shawn Kemp, Al Jefferson all did at this age.

R. Johnson#3
09-23-2014, 11:20 PM
I realize that both of these players are far superior scorers to Noah, but all I'm saying is that if you swap noah from last year with either of these players, bulls miss the playoffs.

So how does that effect ranking? Not really sure, but I strongly believe this to be true.

Agreed. The offense was run through Noah around the free throw line. He scored, passed, set picks, rebounded, hussled and played great D.

I would call Noah the best big in the league right now. He's incredibly versatile and can do so much on offense and along with that, he's one of the best defenders in the game. Something that's very important in a big.

Tony_Starks
09-23-2014, 11:44 PM
I realize that both of these players are far superior scorers to Noah, but all I'm saying is that if you swap noah from last year with either of these players, bulls miss the playoffs.

So how does that effect ranking? Not really sure, but I strongly believe this to be true.

The same could be said for Portland if you swapped Noah in. They rely a lot on Aldridges offense.

IMO making the 2nd round in a stacked West is more impressive than making the playoffs in a pathetic east, even without Rose..

FlashBolt
09-24-2014, 01:18 AM
I gotta agree with the Cousins hate. I like his style of game but he's just not a GREAT player. His attitude could also use some changing. Starting international fights gives USA and himself a bad image. And there is no way Cousins is better than Love or Howard.. I'd take Noah, Howard, Love, Davis, BG (Hard to consider him a big considering he's been expanding his role), Marc Gasol, and Aldridge before I take Cousins.

da ThRONe
09-24-2014, 03:46 AM
How did so many people read the same thing and not one could follow along lmao

If Aldridge is an inefficient jumpshooter but teams are still getting beat because they are treating him as though he was not (thus allowing his teammates the open looks) then the other teams coaches are beating themselves.

Who says he's an inefficient jump shooter?

Here's LMA shot chart. http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=200746

He's only below league average in one spot on the floor.

kalel
09-24-2014, 03:55 AM
Both are pretty worthless defensively, at positions where it's almost a necessity. I can think of 5 bigs easily better than both.

You most not really watch lma, really an underrated defender.

Jamiecballer
09-24-2014, 08:11 AM
Who says he's an inefficient jump shooter?

Here's LMA shot chart. http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=200746

He's only below league average in one spot on the floor.
I will gladly revise my statement if you'd like. He's a jump shot happy, relatively inefficient scorer. He settles for a ton of low percentage shots. This season at least.

My guess is the leagues coaches will make an adjustment to how they defend the blazers as early as next season. That would certainly be my goal.

It is smart strategy by stotts if he is exploiting that.

Jeffy25
09-27-2014, 02:59 AM
I gotta agree with the Cousins hate. I like his style of game but he's just not a GREAT player. His attitude could also use some changing. Starting international fights gives USA and himself a bad image. And there is no way Cousins is better than Love or Howard.. I'd take Noah, Howard, Love, Davis, BG (Hard to consider him a big considering he's been expanding his role), Marc Gasol, and Aldridge before I take Cousins.

Cousins certainly has a lot of growing up to do. The potential is there though, and the performances so far have been very strong. He has the ability to be Moses Malone, Shawn Kemp, Al Jefferson. He's where they were at his age. And those are three different paths that he can take.

Kings Faithful
09-27-2014, 05:03 AM
Cousins certainly has a lot of growing up to do. The potential is there though, and the performances so far have been very strong. He has the ability to be Moses Malone, Shawn Kemp, Al Jefferson. He's where they were at his age. And those are three different paths that he can take.

Moses Malone is an alright comparison but Cousins 4th season is already better than Al Jefferson and Shawn Kemps BEST seasons from a stats perspective. Not only that, but he has done so while average a few less mpg. Its true that Cousins doesn't have the talent around him that Kemp and Al Jefferson but I'm confident that when he is surrounded by talent, it will only elevate his numbers rather than harm them.

Tony_Starks
09-27-2014, 09:29 AM
Cousins is the new Rasheed Wallace. People just dismiss him because of his attitude. Then when he finally gets on a decent team watch how people rant and rave about how good he is.....

Jamiecballer
09-27-2014, 11:27 AM
Cousins is the new Rasheed Wallace. People just dismiss him because of his attitude. Then when he finally gets on a decent team watch how people rant and rave about how good he is.....
Wallace was a hothead, not a moron.

goingfor28
09-27-2014, 07:54 PM
Aldridge? Lmao

Goose17
09-28-2014, 02:42 AM
Give me big Al over Aldridge in terms of scoring.
Give me Davis over Aldridge defensively.

Give me Noah, Gasol and Davis over Cousins defensively. Especially Noah, he doesn't score much but he's efficient and can do a lot more on offense than just score, plus he's an elite defender.

Blake, Love and Dwight need a mention.


LMA and Cousins are great players, but they're top 4/5 in their position not #1

valade16
09-28-2014, 09:56 AM
Give me big Al over Aldridge in terms of scoring.
Give me Davis over Aldridge defensively.

Give me Noah, Gasol and Davis over Cousins defensively. Especially Noah, he doesn't score much but he's efficient and can do a lot more on offense than just score, plus he's an elite defender.

Blake, Love and Dwight need a mention.

LMA and Cousins are great players, but they're top 4/5 in their position not #1

If you're going to pick someone to be better on offense than LMA, shouldn't you pick someone who doesn't have the same problem (efficiency) as LMA?

Goose17
09-28-2014, 10:11 AM
If you're going to pick someone to be better on offense than LMA, shouldn't you pick someone who doesn't have the same problem (efficiency) as LMA?

Nah. I would rather pick the guy with the more varied post game and better footwork. There are two main sides to evaluating offense like this, the efficiency and (just as important) the way you score.

I mean D12 has the better numbers in terms of eFG% etc, but would you really say he's a better offensive player than either LMA or Jefferson? No.

Forgot to mention... Duncan is being overlooked. Even at his ripe old age.


I love advanced stats but the truth is I also love the midrange game, and the stats are killing the mid range game (understandably so). I love watching guys like LMA play, love that mid range shot. It was the same watching Gasol playing pinch in the triangle and shooting jumpers from the elbow. I just like it. Or even Mr Midrange Jenkins. I just like the mid range shot.

I also like skillful post moves.

Simple really.

Tony_Starks
09-30-2014, 11:07 AM
Wallace was a hothead, not a moron.

Do you remember the "Jail Blazers" and all that rhetoric? They were acting like Sheed singlehandedly brought down the entire organization. Portland just gave him away.

My point with the comparison is when DMC's name comes up often the first thing people mention are his antics not his game, the same way they used to do Sheed.

Jamiecballer
09-30-2014, 11:13 PM
Do you remember the "Jail Blazers" and all that rhetoric? They were acting like Sheed singlehandedly brought down the entire organization. Portland just gave him away.

My point with the comparison is when DMC's name comes up often the first thing people mention are his antics not his game, the same way they used to do Sheed.
Ya that's true. Good point. Forgot about the good old jailblazers.

Punk
10-01-2014, 02:02 AM
Cousins is the new Rasheed Wallace. People just dismiss him because of his attitude. Then when he finally gets on a decent team watch how people rant and rave about how good he is.....

Some people dismiss him based on attitude but his defense is bad, his shot selection is inefficient and his assist/turnover ratio is subpar. He isn't that great. Obviously, he is a great talent but he isn't impressive beyond raw numbers. I could list off atleast 5-10 bigs that impact the game on offense and defense better than him.

Oefarmy2005
10-01-2014, 01:41 PM
My Big Rankings
1) Anthony Davis, imo the best 2 way big in the game
2) Noah, his game = wins which should count big time
3) Howard, 2nd best 2 way big in the game imo, though his offense trails his d
4) Love, the best offensive big in the game
5) Cousins, the second best offensive big in the game
6) Ibaka, the 3rd best 2 way big in the game
7) Gasol, a true force
8) Jefferson, 20 and 10 can't be overlooked
9) Lopez, would be really high on this list if healthy
10) Drummond, dude is gonna be something ridiculous.

Jahlil, Karl Towns Jr, Noel, Embiid, Thon and Matur Maker and many more bigs are coming. I personally think we are about to enter a new golden age of C's.

Griffin?

Blitzbolt
10-01-2014, 04:36 PM
Marc Gasol and Noah are the best but they need more help to be champs.

Goose17
10-01-2014, 05:11 PM
Marc Gasol and Noah are the best but they need more help to be champs.

I'm willing to agree with this^

A healthy Rose and some improvements to the youngsters (Butler, Snell and Doug McBuckets) could see Chicago, and Noah, really flourish.

TheGame
10-01-2014, 05:23 PM
Duncan and Dirk are pretty much by far the best. Duncan especially he's the best player on a team that won 5 Championships should be 6 if not for pop sitting Duncan in the final 20 seconds.

FlashBolt
10-01-2014, 10:21 PM
Does anyone else think Noah is a joy to watch? I swear, this dude is a game changer. He's the only reason why the Bulls are always in the playoffs. I'm 100% convinced Noah is the BEST player for the Bulls. The things he does for that team go unnoticed because of Rose.

D-Leethal
10-01-2014, 10:39 PM
Does anyone else think Noah is a joy to watch? I swear, this dude is a game changer. He's the only reason why the Bulls are always in the playoffs. I'm 100% convinced Noah is the BEST player for the Bulls. The things he does for that team go unnoticed because of Rose.

Hate the Bulls but Noah is by far one of my favorites to watch.

prodigy
10-02-2014, 12:21 PM
Does anyone else think Noah is a joy to watch? I swear, this dude is a game changer. He's the only reason why the Bulls are always in the playoffs. I'm 100% convinced Noah is the BEST player for the Bulls. The things he does for that team go unnoticed because of Rose.

Sometimes he's hard to watch because he's so ugly lol. But yes guy is a baller and very fun to watch.

abe_froman
10-02-2014, 12:52 PM
Does anyone else think Noah is a joy to watch? I swear, this dude is a game changer. He's the only reason why the Bulls are always in the playoffs. I'm 100% convinced Noah is the BEST player for the Bulls. The things he does for that team go unnoticed because of Rose.

same,he's easily my fav player(granted i'm a bulls fan,but even back in college he was)