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View Full Version : Who would you take with the first pick in 1986?



JasonJohnHorn
09-15-2014, 11:53 AM
The 1986 was an odd one and a great one. Going back with 20/20 hindsight, who would you pick knowing that Daughtery's career would be cut short with injury and the Bias would die so tragically young? Washburn and Benford would turn out to be busts, and Tarpley's career would be destroyed by drugs. Petrovic would be a late pick, but a great player. However, he too would die tragically young.


Guys of note left after all those (in the order they were selected): Chuck Person, Kenny Walker, Ron Harper, John Salley, Dell Curry, Scott Skiles, Sabonis, Mark Price, Rodman, and Jeff Hornacek.

Kaner
09-15-2014, 11:59 AM
If we can assume Sabonis would come over if he was the 1st pick then it's him easily.

NoahH
09-15-2014, 12:38 PM
Well obviously I wouldnt take len bias or petrovic. I'd probably take Rodman.

abe_froman
09-15-2014, 12:50 PM
well sabonis isnt coming over til the mid 90's,i think you gotta take daugherty or price here(good job cavs)

Iron24th
09-15-2014, 12:51 PM
Sabonis

IndyRealist
09-15-2014, 01:10 PM
If we can assume Sabonis would come over if he was the 1st pick then it's him easily.

Sabonis did not come over due to political reasons I believe. I doubt they would have let him come earlier no matter how high he was picked.

Mark Price or Rodman. People forget how good Price really was.

Minimal
09-15-2014, 01:11 PM
Rodman, but if Sabonis would have been eligible to play straight away, that would be him.

I Rock Shaqs
09-15-2014, 01:19 PM
Kevin Durant.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-15-2014, 01:26 PM
The day of that draft I wanted my Knicks to get Ron Harper and Mark Price. Ron Harper played like a poor mans Jordan before his knee and ankle injuries. He was nearing a all star level before the knee injury. Even though he had some solid seasons after the injury he was not the same explosive player anymore. Mark Price could flat out shoot. The Cavs got them both plus Daugherty. Not a bad draft for them.

Chuck Person was a pretty good (not great) player as well. I remembered when he outplayed my man Walter in the NCAA tourney.

John Sally? I do not even think John Salley's own family would pick him.

Hindsight is 20-20 so I think the pick would be Rodman-Person-Hornacek based on drugs and injuries to the other guys.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
09-15-2014, 01:34 PM
I was gonna say didn't remember Sabonis till mid 90's.

statquo
09-15-2014, 01:42 PM
Rodman but only if he could read his first contract to me without practicing.

MonroeFAN
09-15-2014, 01:53 PM
Is Arvydas Sabonis the most over-rated player of the 90's? Taking him over Dennis Rodman? "easily" ?

I would take Daugherty and Rodman well before Sabonis young or old.

GrkGawdofWalkz
09-15-2014, 01:54 PM
Ron Harper and its not even close in my opinion. Of that list he played a valuable role on several championship teams. There's not much else you can want.

abe_froman
09-15-2014, 02:17 PM
Is Arvydas Sabonis the most over-rated player of the 90's? Taking him over Dennis Rodman? "easily" ?

I would take Daugherty and Rodman well before Sabonis young or old.
i would.you have to remember that sabonis didnt have his prime in the nba,he came over in his 30's and was hobbled by the effects of injuries(but was probably the greatest international player of all time) .rodman(whom i think is one of the most overrated players),i just cant justify to myself picking him number 1 with having no offensive game.i'd take half the guys over him.

Hawkeye15
09-15-2014, 02:30 PM
Kevin Duckworth

Minimal
09-15-2014, 03:01 PM
Is Arvydas Sabonis the most over-rated player of the 90's? Taking him over Dennis Rodman? "easily" ?

I would take Daugherty and Rodman well before Sabonis young or old.
Sabonis overrated? Are you out of your mind? Sabonis posted a PER of 24.7 his first season in the NBA at the age of 31, after being ridled by injuries. He has career NBA win shares/48 at .200, thats more than Kobe Bryant's career average and Sabonis wasn't even in his prime.
Ever seen Sabonis pass? He is the best passing center ever.
Ever seen Sabonis shoot the 3? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdlB8tX75Mc
He is the best 3 point shooting center ever.
And he was 7'3, great defender
I can guarantee you if he played in NBA in his prime he would have been considered a top 5 center of all-time.

Kaner
09-15-2014, 03:10 PM
Is Arvydas Sabonis the most over-rated player of the 90's? Taking him over Dennis Rodman? "easily" ?

I would take Daugherty and Rodman well before Sabonis young or old.

Then you'd be making a mistake. Qualifying for handicap parking he still averaged 22/12 per36 on elite effiency his rookie year in the NBA. 10 years younger and healthier he'd have been nearly as dominant as Shaq

SLY WILLIAMS
09-15-2014, 03:12 PM
i would.you have to remember that sabonis didnt have his prime in the nba,he came over in his 30's and was hobbled by the effects of injuries(but was probably the greatest international player of all time) .rodman(whom i think is one of the most overrated players),i just cant justify to myself picking him number 1 with having no offensive game.i'd take half the guys over him.

I remember how strong and good Sabonis seemed in the 1988 Olympics. Drob seemed small in comparison when they played in 88. It would have been interesting to see him play in his prime in the NBA. I'd definitely take him over today's centers. By the time he got to the NBA his injuries had taken a significant toll.

JustinTime
09-15-2014, 03:21 PM
I would have taken Len bias and hoped it turned out better.

MonroeFAN
09-15-2014, 03:45 PM
Sabonis overrated? Are you out of your mind? Sabonis posted a PER of 24.7 his first season in the NBA at the age of 31, after being ridled by injuries. He has career NBA win shares/48 at .200, thats more than Kobe Bryant's career average and Sabonis wasn't even in his prime.
Ever seen Sabonis pass? He is the best passing center ever.
Ever seen Sabonis shoot the 3? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdlB8tX75Mc
He is the best 3 point shooting center ever.
And he was 7'3, great defender
I can guarantee you if he played in NBA in his prime he would have been considered a top 5 center of all-time.

Being the best 3-point shooting center means very little to me. There wasn't a season in which he averaged more than 1 make per game. He's also not even remotely close to being the best passing center ever or even during his career (heck, he's not even the best passing big man being discussed in this topic). Actually, there's no way he's the best 3-point shooting center ever either. I'm curious, who are you talking about?

He was a career 12 & 7 player, and he didn't win a championship on a stacked team. The rest of it is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.

Per 36 numbers? Ok I guess we can use that as supportive evidence. With that being said, he had a per36 of 22/12 or more once in his career. Let's call it what it is, he's a career 12 & 7 player and he wasn't even that efficient for a big. 10 years younger and healthier I could have been Brad Pitt.

JustinTime
09-15-2014, 03:59 PM
Crazy to think about but if Len Bias hadn't died he would have joined Bird on the Celtics and for all we know Jordan wouldn't have won a bunch of those Championship with those two together. Len Bias's death could have made Jordan and could very well be the most significant thing to ever happen to the NBA and most don't realize it.

DemarDerozan
09-15-2014, 04:22 PM
As far as talent and longevity I'm going with Rodman on this one. Followed by Price, then Hornacek.

Minimal
09-15-2014, 04:26 PM
Being the best 3-point shooting center means very little to me. There wasn't a season in which he averaged more than 1 make per game. He's also not even remotely close to being the best passing center ever or even during his career (heck, he's not even the best passing big man being discussed in this topic). Actually, there's no way he's the best 3-point shooting center ever either. I'm curious, who are you talking about?

He was a career 12 & 7 player, and he didn't win a championship on a stacked team. The rest of it is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.

Per 36 numbers? Ok I guess we can use that as supportive evidence. With that being said, he had a per36 of 22/12 or more once in his career. Let's call it what it is, he's a career 12 & 7 player and he wasn't even that efficient for a big. 10 years younger and healthier I could have been Brad Pitt.
Being best 3 point shooting center means nothing to you? You probably know not much about basketball then.
How about stretching the floor and taking the best opponents defensive center to 3 point line every time? Olajuwons, Shaqs, Howards, Hibberts, Noahs etc wouldn't leave him on 3 point line alone, they would be forced to leave the paint, opening the lane for slashers. He didn't shoot much, because he was as good in the post.
He is the best passing center, the only other you could put along side is Bill Walton, go watch some videos, plus he was incredible defender that on his last legs he lead his team in Defensive Rating in 6 out of 7 seasons in his career.

Kaner
09-15-2014, 04:40 PM
Being the best 3-point shooting center means very little to me. There wasn't a season in which he averaged more than 1 make per game. He's also not even remotely close to being the best passing center ever or even during his career (heck, he's not even the best passing big man being discussed in this topic). Actually, there's no way he's the best 3-point shooting center ever either. I'm curious, who are you talking about?

He was a career 12 & 7 player, and he didn't win a championship on a stacked team. The rest of it is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.

Per 36 numbers? Ok I guess we can use that as supportive evidence. With that being said, he had a per36 of 22/12 or more once in his career. Let's call it what it is, he's a career 12 & 7 player and he wasn't even that efficient for a big. 10 years younger and healthier I could have been Brad Pitt.

He was already in heavy decline by the time he came over, the per36 is evidence of how dominant he was when he was on the floor even crippled by injuries as he continued to further decline the next couple of years. But now you have a chance to take him 10 years younger with him in his prime and you'd pass on him for Brad Daugherty?!? Get off basketball reference and get some context because his potential career can't be summarized by what he did starting at 31 onwards anymore then Bill Walton's can be.

IndyRealist
09-15-2014, 04:54 PM
MonroeFan, Sabonis may be one of the greatest centers to ever play the game. He schooled NBA hall of famers in international competition. You are doing him a huge disservice by only looking at his NBA performance, which happened after Russia used him up and he was crippled with injuries.

Hawkeye15
09-15-2014, 04:56 PM
MonroeFan, Sabonis may be one of the greatest centers to ever play the game. He schooled NBA hall of famers in international competition. You are doing him a huge disservice by only looking at his NBA performance, which happened after Russia used him up and he was crippled with injuries.

perhaps the best passing big man in history.

IKnowHoops
09-15-2014, 05:16 PM
1. Len Bias - I would of had my head trainer by his side from the second he walked off the stage to accept his jersey. Would not of let him die.
1A. Sabonis

The rest aren't in there league.

mrblisterdundee
09-15-2014, 06:04 PM
For me, it comes down to either Jeff Hornacek or Dennis Rodman, offense or defense, shooting or rebounding. If my team needed offense more than defense, I'd take Hornacek, and vise versa.
Drazen Petrovic would have made good first pick. But with hindsight, I'd know that he'd die in his prime. Len Bias was possibly the most talented, but having hindsight, I'm not picking a guy who will die before ever playing a game for me. Arvydas Sabonis was probably the second-most talented player in the draft. Too bad he was 31 by that point.

Minimal
09-15-2014, 06:13 PM
For me, it comes down to either Jeff Hornacek or Dennis Rodman, offense or defense, shooting or rebounding. If my team needed offense more than defense, I'd take Hornacek, and vise versa.
Drazen Petrovic would have made good first pick. But with hindsight, I'd know that he'd die in his prime. Len Bias was possibly the most talented, but having hindsight, I'm not picking a guy who will die before ever playing a game for me. Arvydas Sabonis was probably the second-most talented player in the draft. Too bad he was 31 by that point.
/fail

mrblisterdundee
09-15-2014, 06:43 PM
/fail

Explain how you came to that conclusion. I said Arvydas Sabonis was probably the second-most talented, meaning after Len Bias, but that he was 31 when drafted, which is why I wouldn't make him my top pick.
Had he come in his early 20s, Sabonis could have been a dominant center for at least the next decade and a half. As it stands, he had a better career than Drazen Petrovic. He could have also been better than Bias. Nobody knows how good that guy would have been in the NBA. We know how awesome a young Sabonis would have been.

Phantom Dreamer
09-15-2014, 06:51 PM
Sabonis wasn't 31 in 1986.

Hawkeye15
09-15-2014, 07:16 PM
Sabonis wasn't 31 in 1986.

no, he was 31 in his rookie season 9 years later

HeatFan
09-15-2014, 07:38 PM
From that list probably Mark Price

todu82
09-15-2014, 08:09 PM
Price or Rodman

Quinnsanity
09-15-2014, 08:31 PM
Considering the troubles they presented, longevity etc... my top five would be:

1. Price
2. Rodman
3. Daugherty
4. Hornacek
5. Petrovic

Obviously it depends on your team though. If you know you're a contender right away you take Petrovic above Daugherty and Hornacek knowing he'll help you a lot for a few years and then die.

Jeffy25
09-15-2014, 11:32 PM
Hornacek, Rodman, Price or Sabonis

Minimal
09-16-2014, 01:40 AM
Explain how you came to that conclusion. I said Arvydas Sabonis was probably the second-most talented, meaning after Len Bias, but that he was 31 when drafted, which is why I wouldn't make him my top pick.
Had he come in his early 20s, Sabonis could have been a dominant center for at least the next decade and a half. As it stands, he had a better career than Drazen Petrovic. He could have also been better than Bias. Nobody knows how good that guy would have been in the NBA. We know how awesome a young Sabonis would have been.
Sabonis was 21 during 1986 draft. You call him second most talented player in the draft, but you don't really know much about him, should have started with his date of birth.

krazylegz
09-16-2014, 02:38 AM
i wouldve been 3 years old in 1986,so god bless the team who had me draft from them that season

arlubas
09-16-2014, 03:40 AM
People throwing dirt at Sabonis either have no idea about his prime (which happened while he was playing in Europe) or they just don't know basketball in general. The guy was massive, skilled as a guard, could shoot, pass, defend, you name it. You really should youtube some of his younger days, just for the heck of it. You'd leave impressed.

As far as Rodman being picked first I'd have an issue with that. Yes the guy is the best rebounder ever and one of the best defenders ever but ask yourself this: would you be able to win it all with Rodman as your #1 option on the team? As the 2nd? Rodman may be all that he is but in the end he can only be an incredibly valuable 3rd wheel on a championship team. Which is no small feat but not something that would deserve a #1 pick in the draft. And keep in mind, this is coming from a Rodman fan who always argued with people back in the early 90s about his value to those Pistons and Spurs teams.

As for the original question my list would probably go like this:
1. Brad Daugherty (8 years with very good averages is a pretty long time)
2. Mark Price
3. Ron Harper
4. Dennis Rodman
5. Chuck Person, the Rifleman

Sabonis doesn't get in there because he couldn't come due to the USSR restrctions or else he would've been #1.

IndyRealist
09-16-2014, 08:26 AM
Depends on what you mean as #1 option. Could you win with Rodman as your best offensive player? No, that's silly. Could you win with Rodman as your best player? Yes. Surround him with offensive players and let him anchor, Bill Russell style.

MonroeFAN
09-16-2014, 10:31 AM
Being best 3 point shooting center means nothing to you? You probably know not much about basketball then.
How about stretching the floor and taking the best opponents defensive center to 3 point line every time? Olajuwons, Shaqs, Howards, Hibberts, Noahs etc wouldn't leave him on 3 point line alone, they would be forced to leave the paint, opening the lane for slashers. He didn't shoot much, because he was as good in the post.
He is the best passing center, the only other you could put along side is Bill Walton, go watch some videos, plus he was incredible defender that on his last legs he lead his team in Defensive Rating in 6 out of 7 seasons in his career.

Why would you continue on with this argument? Whether 3 point shooting is important to me or not, he never made more than 1 per game in his career, and isn't even remotely close to being the best 3-point shooting center of all time or in the top 10. Players like Channing Frye, Andrea Bargnani (hello?) are just role playing centers who are both better 3 point shooters than he was, and that's only within the last 5 seasons.

Some how Daughtery is a lesser passer, despite the fact that he had a significantly better career A/TO ratio. What numbers are you reading here? You're imagining this all, and I'm not interested in debating that. Get some factual information or forget about it.

You all need to slow your role talking down to me about semantics. Nothing you guys are talking about holds any weight in a conversation about who would be the biggest impact player in the 1986 draft. Ron Harper could have been the best player of all time. Rodman was a defensive stalwart and one of the best rebounders of all time. Daughtery was equally as successful as Sabonis in the NBA, and had significantly better numbers both per possession and over-all.

IndyRealist, why are you bringing up International play? It's completely irrelevant. Players like Valanciunas (sp? don't really care) have dominated on that level only to come to the NBA and look like average starters.

@ Kaner, interesting that you're telling me to get off of basketball-reference when your entire argument is about per36 numbers. But ok, I'll get off basketball reference. It doesn't change the fact that he's not a champion on the NBA level, and he's a career 12 & 7 player. 90% of the supporters in this topic are most likely international basketball fans and recall the glory days better than me. I don't doubt that these were the expectations for him as a player after he dominated in the European leagues. I also don't see how that's relevant. This is all purely based on speculation, his per 36 numbers aren't better than the competition, and his regular numbers aren't better. He didn't win anything. What am I missing? If you want to play the "what-if-game" what if Rodman was a good offensive player? He would probably be a top 5 player of all time.

MonroeFAN
09-16-2014, 10:43 AM
Airlubas, so you think Sabonis could be a #1 option on a championship team? Based on his european league play? Would you say the same for Jonas Valanciunas?

I'm glad you like him, and from the sound of it, he had an incredible international career. We should recognize that more often as a community, but not in a topic involving players who were incredibly productive at the NBA level for multiple seasons. He wasn't, it's not as if I'm lying. Speculating is fun, but it's not something you can argue with me about.

arlubas
09-16-2014, 10:44 AM
Depends on what you mean as #1 option. Could you win with Rodman as your best offensive player? No, that's silly. Could you win with Rodman as your best player? Yes. Surround him with offensive players and let him anchor, Bill Russell style.
You know that what you said is easier said than done right? If you give a Rodman led team JR Smith, Brandon Jennings and OJ Mayo for example, you think such a team can win a ring? I highly doubt that. Better yet, let's reverse the question. Name me ONE team which Rodman was a part of that was a contender and he was the second best or top player on the squad.

MonroeFAN
09-16-2014, 10:45 AM
So now the argument switches to fact? It's not ok for us to speculate for Rodman, but Sabonis, it is?

mrblisterdundee
09-16-2014, 07:45 PM
Sabonis wasn't 31 in 1986.


Sabonis was 21 during 1986 draft. You call him second most talented player in the draft, but you don't really know much about him, should have started with his date of birth.

Sorry; I meant to say when he came in the league. My point stands, though: I wouldn't take him first because he was 31 upon starting in the NBA. In terms of talent, though, he could easily be argued as the second-most talented player in the 1986 draft, if not the most talented overall. We know something about him, whereas there's no way to tell how Len Bias would perform beyond college.

Ty Fast
09-16-2014, 07:59 PM
Rodman

WadeKobe
09-17-2014, 01:28 AM
Ron Harper and its not even close in my opinion. Of that list he played a valuable role on several championship teams. There's not much else you can want.

Rodman? Who played a more important role, as a better player, on more championship teams?

I dunno. I might want that.

Phantom Dreamer
09-17-2014, 01:40 AM
It's too bad Harper tore his ACL.

benny01
09-17-2014, 01:56 AM
Why would you continue on with this argument? Whether 3 point shooting is important to me or not, he never made more than 1 per game in his career, and isn't even remotely close to being the best 3-point shooting center of all time or in the top 10. Players like Channing Frye, Andrea Bargnani (hello?) are just role playing centers who are both better 3 point shooters than he was, and that's only within the last 5 seasons.

Some how Daughtery is a lesser passer, despite the fact that he had a significantly better career A/TO ratio. What numbers are you reading here? You're imagining this all, and I'm not interested in debating that. Get some factual information or forget about it.

You all need to slow your role talking down to me about semantics. Nothing you guys are talking about holds any weight in a conversation about who would be the biggest impact player in the 1986 draft. Ron Harper could have been the best player of all time. Rodman was a defensive stalwart and one of the best rebounders of all time. Daughtery was equally as successful as Sabonis in the NBA, and had significantly better numbers both per possession and over-all.

IndyRealist, why are you bringing up International play? It's completely irrelevant. Players like Valanciunas (sp? don't really care) have dominated on that level only to come to the NBA and look like average starters.

@ Kaner, interesting that you're telling me to get off of basketball-reference when your entire argument is about per36 numbers. But ok, I'll get off basketball reference. It doesn't change the fact that he's not a champion on the NBA level, and he's a career 12 & 7 player. 90% of the supporters in this topic are most likely international basketball fans and recall the glory days better than me. I don't doubt that these were the expectations for him as a player after he dominated in the European leagues. I also don't see how that's relevant. This is all purely based on speculation, his per 36 numbers aren't better than the competition, and his regular numbers aren't better. He didn't win anything. What am I missing? If you want to play the "what-if-game" what if Rodman was a good offensive player? He would probably be a top 5 player of all time.
His basketball-reference comment was in reference to your use of statistics at all. Watch a little tape it helps you not look so stupid. Really, watch tape and then tell us that Daughtery was a better passer. That is unless you routinely saw Daughtery hit guys from the top of the key behind his head in stride through traffic at the basket. He made C-Webb look like a guy with no thumbs. Vidi's career was over by the time he got here, and clearly he retired before you ever saw a basketball game. At 31, he was the most skilled big man ever to play in the league. He wasn't your typical Euro player, which is the box you seem to be putting him in. Vidi could play in the post and was a good-great defender and he wasn't shy about contact. Pick any center today and he would eat their **** every day and twice on Sunday.

arlubas
09-17-2014, 06:56 AM
Airlubas, so you think Sabonis could be a #1 option on a championship team? Based on his european league play? Would you say the same for Jonas Valanciunas?
Sabonis was playing better with one leg at 31 in the NBA than Valanciunas ever has plus he doesn't have a fraction of Sabonis' skillset. Further more the guy was dominating whenever his team played you on international play. So yeah, based on those I'd say he had a pretty big chance of being a beast in the league and a #1 option.


I'm glad you like him, and from the sound of it, he had an incredible international career. We should recognize that more often as a community, but not in a topic involving players who were incredibly productive at the NBA level for multiple seasons. He wasn't, it's not as if I'm lying. Speculating is fun, but it's not something you can argue with me about.
Obviously I can't bring you facts about a guy being a dominant force in the league in his prime when he never played there at the time. All both me and you can do is speculate. You speculate he wouldn't have been a #1 option, I do otherwise. I don't see how that isn't something worth discussing though.


So now the argument switches to fact? It's not ok for us to speculate for Rodman, but Sabonis, it is?
Dude do you not understand that Rodman DID play in the league for a long time and he never was anything more than the 3rd best player on his team? As for my "speculation", IndyRealist made that hypothetical scenario and I gave an example of such a team. I don't see why you're getting all worked up about it.

blacknell
09-17-2014, 07:54 AM
i'd take Dennis Rodman #1 he is the only one in the NBA Hall of Fame and defensive and rebounding mastermind

MonroeFAN
09-17-2014, 11:26 AM
His basketball-reference comment was in reference to your use of statistics at all. Watch a little tape it helps you not look so stupid. Really, watch tape and then tell us that Daughtery was a better passer. That is unless you routinely saw Daughtery hit guys from the top of the key behind his head in stride through traffic at the basket. He made C-Webb look like a guy with no thumbs. Vidi's career was over by the time he got here, and clearly he retired before you ever saw a basketball game. At 31, he was the most skilled big man ever to play in the league. He wasn't your typical Euro player, which is the box you seem to be putting him in. Vidi could play in the post and was a good-great defender and he wasn't shy about contact. Pick any center today and he would eat their **** every day and twice on Sunday.

lol, me looking stupid? Not a single one of his defenders in this topic has provided anything with substance. This is a topic about the impact in the NBA, not the impact in the European leagues, not what could have potentially happened. It's about what happened. If you want to talk about potential, let's talk about Rodman, let's talk about Harper.

I'm not trying to put down Sabonis here, he was a legit two way player for a season or two in the NBA. If you call me an idiot for speaking the truth, what exactly does that make you?

None of you are on the level of debating with me on this, clearly. You would think that with the way you guys are talking about him, he averaged 7 apg. To bad it's closer to 2 which is average for a Center. I've seen plenty of tape, I can't just ignore the facts because his highlight reel suggests he's better than he was. You should watch an Andrey Blatche Highlite reel.

"clearly he retired before you watched an NBA game". lol again, where do you get off insulting people?

MonroeFAN
09-17-2014, 11:37 AM
Sabonis was playing better with one leg at 31 in the NBA than Valanciunas ever has plus he doesn't have a fraction of Sabonis' skillset. Further more the guy was dominating whenever his team played you on international play. So yeah, based on those I'd say he had a pretty big chance of being a beast in the league and a #1 option.


Obviously I can't bring you facts about a guy being a dominant force in the league in his prime when he never played there at the time. All both me and you can do is speculate. You speculate he wouldn't have been a #1 option, I do otherwise. I don't see how that isn't something worth discussing though.


Dude do you not understand that Rodman DID play in the league for a long time and he never was anything more than the 3rd best player on his team? As for my "speculation", IndyRealist made that hypothetical scenario and I gave an example of such a team. I don't see why you're getting all worked up about it.


Why am I getting so worked up over this? Because I have people telling me I don't know basketball and that I look stupid because I trust numbers over a highlite reel that could make any player look like jesus for 3 minutes. I've seen the tape, I've watched him numerous times. The only one bringing any facts to the table is me and yet for whatever reason I have to deal with Huey Freeman telling me I look stupid. Very few european players have been successful in this league (fact). Based on his NBA career, he was not this dominant force that you have all made him out to be (fact).

You can say all you want about Dennis Rodman not being a #2 option on a championship team, and that's fine. I am a fan of the Pistons, and I will tell you that in my opinion, he had a bigger impact than anyone not named Isiah in 89-90. I hope for your sake that you don't reference numbers in your argument, because that would make every speculative dismissive post you've made completely irrelevant. See how fun that is?

Now you seem like a pretty logical guy, I don't feel the need to argue with you, I understand where you're coming from. But there is no end in sight to this, and neither of us are right. Allow me to simply say, I disagree. I don't like speculating, especially with such a small sample of data to work with.

JasonJohnHorn
09-17-2014, 12:58 PM
perhaps the best passing big man in history.

Brad Miller and Joakim Noah want to have a chat with you ;-)

Seriously though, Sabonis was awesome! You are likely correct here sir.

benny01
09-17-2014, 01:56 PM
lol, me looking stupid? Not a single one of his defenders in this topic has provided anything with substance. This is a topic about the impact in the NBA, not the impact in the European leagues, not what could have potentially happened. It's about what happened. If you want to talk about potential, let's talk about Rodman, let's talk about Harper.

I'm not trying to put down Sabonis here, he was a legit two way player for a season or two in the NBA. If you call me an idiot for speaking the truth, what exactly does that make you?

None of you are on the level of debating with me on this, clearly. You would think that with the way you guys are talking about him, he averaged 7 apg. To bad it's closer to 2 which is average for a Center. I've seen plenty of tape, I can't just ignore the facts because his highlight reel suggests he's better than he was. You should watch an Andrey Blatche Highlite reel.

"clearly he retired before you watched an NBA game". lol again, where do you get off insulting people?
When you compare him to Rodman you are absolutely putting him down. When you call him a euro player your putting him down.
There are legit basketball people(Fran Fraschilla being one of many) that have argued that he was the best player in the world in his prime. Magic and Hakeem both said he was a top 3 player during the dream team run.
Sorry this isn't about potential, his potential was realized. He didn't avoid the NBA in his prime, he couldn't come over. Facts are more than statistics. I could blow you away with stats and accolades from his time in europe, but I'm sure you would ignore them anyway. He was a 7ft. PG for god's sake. The facts you're ignoring are that his usage and his minutes were limited due to the fact that he was a shell of himself when he got here.
The best player in that draft hands down was Vidi, some how during your high level argument you missed that. You also missed some incredible basketball.

JPS
09-17-2014, 03:38 PM
Whoever I picked I would definatly not trade the #1 overall pick for Roy Hinson.

MonroeFAN
09-17-2014, 04:04 PM
When you compare him to Rodman you are absolutely putting him down. When you call him a euro player your putting him down.
There are legit basketball people(Fran Fraschilla being one of many) that have argued that he was the best player in the world in his prime. Magic and Hakeem both said he was a top 3 player during the dream team run.
Sorry this isn't about potential, his potential was realized. He didn't avoid the NBA in his prime, he couldn't come over. Facts are more than statistics. I could blow you away with stats and accolades from his time in europe, but I'm sure you would ignore them anyway. He was a 7ft. PG for god's sake. The facts you're ignoring are that his usage and his minutes were limited due to the fact that he was a shell of himself when he got here.
The best player in that draft hands down was Vidi, some how during your high level argument you missed that. You also missed some incredible basketball.


How on earth is comparing him to Rodman, "putting him down". Rodman won multiple championships, was an all world defender, and probably the best rebounder of all time. Jesus H christ, it's as if somehow he's become even more over-rated as this topic has gone on. Yes, you are 100% correct in thinking that I would ignore accolades of his from his days in the European leagues. That holds 0 weight in this discussion, and history suggests that it means very little in the NBA. He was not a 7 ft point guard. He was a 7 foot center who occasionally could hit a 3, and had nearly a neutral career A/TO ratio.

No one suggested that he ignored the NBA during his prime. I'm suggesting that we should only speculate on what information we have available to us. Magic Johnson once said that Rodney Stuckey will be one of the best guards in the league after his rookie season. Hakeem hypes up literally every center he practices with in the off-season as the next big thing.

IndyRealist
09-17-2014, 06:37 PM
You know that what you said is easier said than done right? If you give a Rodman led team JR Smith, Brandon Jennings and OJ Mayo for example, you think such a team can win a ring? I highly doubt that. Better yet, let's reverse the question. Name me ONE team which Rodman was a part of that was a contender and he was the second best or top player on the squad.

94-95 Spurs won 62 games and were favorites to win the title, until they ran into Hakeem. Rodman averaged 16.8 rebounds, led the league in both offensive and defensive rebounding rates, and made all defensive first team.

benny01
09-17-2014, 07:10 PM
How on earth is comparing him to Rodman, "putting him down". Rodman won multiple championships, was an all world defender, and probably the best rebounder of all time. Jesus H christ, it's as if somehow he's become even more over-rated as this topic has gone on. Yes, you are 100% correct in thinking that I would ignore accolades of his from his days in the European leagues. That holds 0 weight in this discussion, and history suggests that it means very little in the NBA. He was not a 7 ft point guard. He was a 7 foot center who occasionally could hit a 3, and had nearly a neutral career A/TO ratio.

No one suggested that he ignored the NBA during his prime. I'm suggesting that we should only speculate on what information we have available to us. Magic Johnson once said that Rodney Stuckey will be one of the best guards in the league after his rookie season. Hakeem hypes up literally every center he practices with in the off-season as the next big thing.
Rodman was the best rebounder yet, and was a good defender. From 83-86 Vidi was a point guard, until the first of his major injuries. We aren't speculating about his time in Europe and we have plenty of information to work with, an entire career actually. You choose to disregard it, you can be a fool if you want to.

benny01
09-18-2014, 02:19 AM
i'd take Dennis Rodman #1 he is the only one in the NBA Hall of Fame and defensive and rebounding mastermind

Petrovic and Sabonis are in the Hall of Fame. Also, there is no NBA Hall of Fame.

albertajaysfan
09-18-2014, 04:49 PM
Sabonis if he was able to come over right away. Not just his skill level but also the position he played make it a no brainer.

Rodman would be next because of his dominance rebounding and defensively.

Price would be next.

Wow a team of those three as your pillars would be deadly.