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View Full Version : Conversation about Derrick Rose and Anthony Davis



Il Mago50
09-09-2014, 12:11 PM
Hey everyone, I recently put together two pieces about Derrick Rose and Anthony Davis recently and though I'd try starting up the conversation on each while getting some feedback on the pieces.

First of all, with how Rose has looked this summer, how likely do you think it is for him to return to his former form by getting passed the likely mental blocks he probably has going through his head in certain situations on the court?

http://gambitgamble.sportsblog.com/posts/1061612/will_derrick_rose_ever_be_the_same_.html

Finally, as much talk as there actually is about Anthony Davis becoming the best player in the league and MVP in a few years, how likely is it that he actually wins the award this season if he performs up to his billing and the Pelicans make the playoffs?

http://gambitgamble.sportsblog.com/posts/1061587/can_anthony_davis_win_the_nba_mvp_award_this_seaso n_.html

jaydubb
09-09-2014, 12:14 PM
2 convos in one thread? :speechless:

Confusious
09-09-2014, 05:36 PM
It's going to be really exciting to see Davis play alongside a healthy Holiday and Gordon. Add in Asik, and that team would EASILY be a playoff team if they were in the East.

However, they have Tyreke Evans. And he's enough to bring down a team by himself.

As for your "conversation" between Davis and Rose, obviously they're planning to team up in Chitown. :rolleyes: Isn't it obvious?

da ThRONe
09-09-2014, 05:56 PM
Davis is far more likely to see a dip in his overall numbers when you add more talent. Guys will want to get there number(as well as they should) and there's only so many shots that will be taken in a game. Add Asik great rebounding and Davis is far more likely to be looking at a season closer to 16.5ppg and 8.5rpg if we don't run a more up tempo style offense.

The team(barring another freaky injury plagued season) will be better and should be in the hunt for a playoffs spot. However it's going to come at the expense of Davis stat line.

My overall opinion of Davis as a player and long term potential is far lower than most people. When I study his skill set he's not a guy gifted enough to carry a team. Sure on a team wrecked by injuries he was able to put up numbers. But his game is so basic(which looks good in advance metrics) isn't the type of dominate game that puts insane pressure on NBA defenses especially at key point in the game. Defensively he's able to collect steals and blocks(which again IMO helps inflate his advance stats) because of his length and great timing. Otherwise he's just an average to above average defender everywhere else.

He's a metric statistical darling, but his actual impact on a game isn't nearly as impressive IMO of course.

da ThRONe
09-09-2014, 06:03 PM
As far as Rose I think team USA play isn't a good gauge for a player. The biggest thing I wanted to see from Rose was his other worldly explosiveness and it's there. Getting back in a system that's built around him and a full off season I expect the rust to slowly recede. By the end of the first quarter of the season we'll see Rose back to his old self.

beasted86
09-09-2014, 06:10 PM
I thought fishing for clicks to blogs or personal websites wasn't allowed on PSD?

FlashBolt
09-10-2014, 01:54 AM
If Anthony Davis was smart, he would go to LAL and team up with Dragic.

ChiSox219
09-10-2014, 10:50 AM
Davis is far more likely to see a dip in his overall numbers when you add more talent. Guys will want to get there number(as well as they should) and there's only so many shots that will be taken in a game. Add Asik great rebounding and Davis is far more likely to be looking at a season closer to 16.5ppg and 8.5rpg if we don't run a more up tempo style offense.

The team(barring another freaky injury plagued season) will be better and should be in the hunt for a playoffs spot. However it's going to come at the expense of Davis stat line.

My overall opinion of Davis as a player and long term potential is far lower than most people. When I study his skill set he's not a guy gifted enough to carry a team. Sure on a team wrecked by injuries he was able to put up numbers. But his game is so basic(which looks good in advance metrics) isn't the type of dominate game that puts insane pressure on NBA defenses especially at key point in the game. Defensively he's able to collect steals and blocks(which again IMO helps inflate his advance stats) because of his length and great timing. Otherwise he's just an average to above average defender everywhere else.

He's a metric statistical darling, but his actual impact on a game isn't nearly as impressive IMO of course.

I'm really not sure what you are studying especially when you say Davis' game is basic. After watching AD 50 times or so over the last two years, I'm confident he ends up as a top 10-20 player all-time.

da ThRONe
09-10-2014, 02:41 PM
I'm really not sure what you are studying especially when you say Davis' game is basic. After watching AD 50 times or so over the last two years, I'm confident he ends up as a top 10-20 player all-time.

And after those 50 or so times how many do you see Davis dribbles the ball more than once?

He only has 3 basic moves in iso situations. When he's facing up all he does is the dribble pull up jumper and that almost always on one bounce. His only other move while facing up is the quick straight line dribble drive and that's almost always on one bounce as well. In the post all he does is a quick turn move. Which usually ends in a hook shot if he's balance up and down, a floater if he's leaning towards the basket or a jumper if he is force to fade away. He has no counter to any of those moves. If he can't get the look he wants he's forced to throw up a terrible shot and/or hope the refs bail him out(which they did a lot last season).

ChiSox219
09-10-2014, 04:20 PM
And after those 50 or so times how many do you see Davis dribbles the ball more than once?

He only has 3 basic moves in iso situations. When he's facing up all he does is the dribble pull up jumper and that almost always on one bounce. His only other move while facing up is the quick straight line dribble drive and that's almost always on one bounce as well.

You are starting off with this but isolating isn't a primary goal of any NBA team because it's a below average proposition unless there's a mismatch. The thing is, Davis creates mismatches regularly because he's faster than every big in the league which is why he faces up, dribbles once, and attacks for a layup and/or trip to the line. Why the heck would you want him going through a set up-fake-attack-fade sequence when he's deadly just one dribble and attack, this is fundamentals man.



In the post all he does is a quick turn move. Which usually ends in a hook shot if he's balance up and down, a floater if he's leaning towards the basket or a jumper if he is force to fade away. He has no counter to any of those moves. If he can't get the look he wants he's forced to throw up a terrible shot and/or hope the refs bail him out(which they did a lot last season).

Post moves are supposed to be quick and easy, that's what makes them high percentage shots. The back down dribble fadeaway isn't a good shot but for a select few. People criticized Blake Griffin in a similar way, calling him awkward in the post and dismissing his quick hooks, layups, and dunks from the post and demanding fadeaway bank shots before considering him a legitimate star.


Davis does so many important things really well which is why the resulting stats are among the leagues best. You fail to mention his PnR play, his baseline cuts, the great range and touch on his jumper, his ability to draw fouls, his ability to finish at the rim, his offensive rebounding, I mean this all comes before isolation play. He certainly is not a finished product at 21 years of age and 2 years pro experience but it's pretty clear where he is headed, the whole league acknowledges it openly.

TrueFan420
09-11-2014, 01:30 AM
If Anthony Davis was smart, he would go to LAL and team up with Dragic.

Hahaha last time I checked dragic plays for the suns... Or are we getting into klove to LA again.

BALLER R
09-11-2014, 02:25 AM
Davis might be the 3rd best player in the NBA real soon

KG2TB
09-11-2014, 02:53 AM
Davis might be the 3rd best player in the NBA real soon

I still think he needs a couple of seasons but it's within reach for him.

THE MTL
09-11-2014, 01:41 PM
Davis might be the 3rd best player in the NBA real soon

Agreed. Real quick real quick.

da ThRONe
09-11-2014, 01:42 PM
You are starting off with this but isolating isn't a primary goal of any NBA team because it's a below average proposition unless there's a mismatch. The thing is, Davis creates mismatches regularly because he's faster than every big in the league which is why he faces up, dribbles once, and attacks for a layup and/or trip to the line. Why the heck would you want him going through a set up-fake-attack-fade sequence when he's deadly just one dribble and attack, this is fundamentals man.

Davis is not that consistent mismatch. His type of basic offense skill set is much easier to game plan against and defend. To be a superstar a player has to be able to create a good shot in iso situation at will. I've never seen a player labeled as such that couldn't.

This recent success and hype will put a target on him. Being limited offensively will hurt him. This is why guys that can score with multiple moves and counters to those moves are so important.




Post moves are supposed to be quick and easy, that's what makes them high percentage shots. The back down dribble fadeaway isn't a good shot but for a select few. People criticized Blake Griffin in a similar way, calling him awkward in the post and dismissing his quick hooks, layups, and dunks from the post and demanding fadeaway bank shots before considering him a legitimate star.

Post moves(like all moves) must vary to be effective. If all a player is capable of are just basics post moves the defender will start taking that away. Davis isn't highly effective at this area anyways. This is with the "superstar" treat he received last year.



Davis does so many important things really well which is why the resulting stats are among the leagues best. You fail to mention his PnR play, his baseline cuts, the great range and touch on his jumper, his ability to draw fouls, his ability to finish at the rim, his offensive rebounding, I mean this all comes before isolation play. He certainly is not a finished product at 21 years of age and 2 years pro experience but it's pretty clear where he is headed, the whole league acknowledges it openly.

I didn't fail to mention any of those things. I explained why his game is basic and why I don't see him as a superstar in this league. He's a good young player and his youth allows for time to develop the skill set I feel he's lacking and couple it with all the things he does well to become a superstar. However I don't think he has the footwork and is too far behind to correct the problems well enough to live up to the hype.

Some people have him in their top 5-10 some even top 3. That would put him ahead of many guys that IMO are significantly better than Davis and have been far more impactful to their respective teams. IMO his skill sets does not warrant the hype even though the individual stats does.

ChiSox219
09-11-2014, 04:43 PM
Davis is not that consistent mismatch. His type of basic offense skill set is much easier to game plan against and defend. To be a superstar a player has to be able to create a good shot in iso situation at will. I've never seen a player labeled as such that couldn't.

He is a consistent mismatch, there's no one in the league with his combination of verticality, coordination, and quickness. You label his skill set basic but few were able to stop Davis and he got stronger as the year went on. Plenty of teams gameplanned for Davis but most of the time they failed.

There are lots of guys labeled superstars who can't create good shots in isolation situations, look at Kobe for example. He's worn the crown as the premier iso player yet his isolations are a below average proposition and when it comes to game winners where iso is most important he also under-performs
.


This recent success and hype will put a target on him. Being limited offensively will hurt him. This is why guys that can score with multiple moves and counters to those moves are so important.

The whole league knew Davis was a true blue chip franchise player coming into the draft. By the all-star break last year, most everyone in the media recognized him as the elite player he is. You really think with Ryan Anderson back to space the floor and Asik to beat up the stronger post defenders that Davis is gonna struggle against the attention he's already been getting? **** at one point he took down the Heat in Miami with Babbit, Roberts, and Aminu starting, Davis got a ton of attention last year. His volume may dip with real talent around him but he's going to be even better this year.





Post moves(like all moves) must vary to be effective. If all a player is capable of are just basics post moves the defender will start taking that away. Davis isn't highly effective at this area anyways. This is with the "superstar" treat he received last year.

All that's coming for Davis. The thing is you don't need to have a vast repertoire of post moves to score effectively and at a high rate which is what Davis did. With Davis' length, athleticism, and coordination the game becomes all about layups and dunks which I guess is what you mean by basic.

Also, superstar treatment is a concept I've never seen backed up and is usually thrown out discredit a specific player. For example, Harden gets this thrown at him regularly but when he was coming off the bench in OKC his FT rate was still insanely high. The #1 requirement for the superstar label is being able to get to the line at a high rate because that is the best shot in basketball, especially if you hit 'em at 80%.



I didn't fail to mention any of those things. I explained why his game is basic and why I don't see him as a superstar in this league. He's a good young player and his youth allows for time to develop the skill set I feel he's lacking and couple it with all the things he does well to become a superstar. However I don't think he has the footwork and is too far behind to correct the problems well enough to live up to the hype.

You are putting too much emphasis on a specific skill that does not yield a great amount of production. KD doesnt have the footwork of Kobe, yet KD is better now than Kobe ever was. To say Davis is to far behind to correct the problems is just odd, he's 21 with great coordination and drive, he will continue to diversify his game.



Some people have him in their top 5-10 some even top 3. That would put him ahead of many guys that IMO are significantly better than Davis and have been far more impactful to their respective teams. IMO his skill sets does not warrant the hype even though the individual stats does.

Who do you have above Davis?

Byronicle
09-11-2014, 05:11 PM
It's going to be really exciting to see Davis play alongside a healthy Holiday and Gordon. Add in Asik, and that team would EASILY be a playoff team if they were in the East.

However, they have Tyreke Evans. And he's enough to bring down a team by himself.

As for your "conversation" between Davis and Rose, obviously they're planning to team up in Chitown. :rolleyes: Isn't it obvious?

Tyreke Evans played much better most of last season so I don't know what you are talking about especially considering that Evans is a good player at his position.

JEDean89
09-11-2014, 06:40 PM
A lot of people not having a clue what they are talking about. davis and reke are legit. davis is imo the 3rd best player on the planet, youre not getting into the western conference playoffs with brian roberts running your offense though. reke was one of the most impressive rookies anyone has ever seen. only him, lebron and jordan averaged 20, 5, 5 their rookie season. his foot injuries slowed him down and he seemed to be getting back to his old self. he simply needs to be the pelicans 2 guard, not their 3.

JeffG20
09-11-2014, 08:16 PM
Tyreke Evans played much better most of last season so I don't know what you are talking about especially considering that Evans is a good player at his position.

I don't blame people that much for having a poor opinion of Reke. He had by far his best season since his rookie year but its not like Pelican games are on national TV. I hope that changes soon. Not a lot of people probably watch to think of anything other then his last few years in Sac