PDA

View Full Version : Flopping - Is it worth considering? Can it change a game one way or the other?



ghettosean
09-06-2014, 12:44 PM
I've had recent discussions on defining a player and if flopping is even worth considering. I personally think it is because I believe 1 flop can change the game as much as 1 rebound, 1 block or 1 steal. Just because it's not a counted metric we tend to discount it as being a factor and sweep it under the rug. If a player flops he can get some free throws for easy buckets, get an opposing player in foul trouble or get an opposing team into the penalty that much easier and change the outcome of the game. Currently it's part of the game and how the game is played today so I think it is a factor in changing a game as much as any other stat that's not points or assists (because they directly translate to points) but what do you think?

Discuss

Hawkeye15
09-06-2014, 01:44 PM
doesn't really impact the game, because over the course of a game/week/season, a team benefits just as much as it gets hurt by it.

People who hate flopping are really overstating it's impact. Sure it's annoying watching a grown man pull a soccer move, but if it works, it works. And people also act like it just started in the past 5 years. ****, the greatest floppers ever are long retired or about to be...(looking at you Manu).

THE MTL
09-06-2014, 01:55 PM
I think offensive flopping can really change the game. Guys like Wade, Ginobli, James *nowadays, Harden, etc...making careers out of it.

Its like when all else fails just bully your way into the lane and fail your arms/bobble your head around till you hear the whistle

WadeKobe
09-06-2014, 02:03 PM
Lol. I have never seen someone try so hard.

hugepatsfan
09-06-2014, 02:08 PM
I think it has a big impact because of the foul implications and the unevenness with how much stars get away with it. If you're playing a Harden or a Lebron you're going to put your best defender on him. But if that guy is allowed to get away with flopping then they can force you, through foul trouble, to have to switch your best defender off of him or have that guy sit down for some period of time.

kobe4thewinbang
09-06-2014, 02:17 PM
Certainly, it is possible for a flop to have an impact on a crucial play in an important game. I think the referees are doing better vigilance these days, but there is still a lot that goes uncalled. It is an embarrassment to the league if you ask me, especially when it's less real-looking than pro wrestling contact. I haven't seen a game be decided by a flop, but it is definitely a problem.

ghettosean
09-06-2014, 02:21 PM
doesn't really impact the game, because over the course of a game/week/season, a team benefits just as much as it gets hurt by it.

People who hate flopping are really overstating it's impact. Sure it's annoying watching a grown man pull a soccer move, but if it works, it works. And people also act like it just started in the past 5 years. ****, the greatest floppers ever are long retired or about to be...(looking at you Manu).

I'm not sure what you mean by it being overstated. I'm saying it's as significant as a rebound, steal, block, FGA.... etc.

For example 1 rebound by Bosh on game 6 of the finals completely changed the outcome of the NBA champions that season if Ray Ray or Lebron flopped at the 3 point line and got the call could that have the exact same impact??? Of course it could!

I wouldn't mind examples though of the same team getting hurt by flops. Do you nean in the same way a player gambles on a steal he might make it an easy bucket for the opposition if ge fails to get the steal? If so i fail to see the difference.

ThuglifeJ
09-06-2014, 02:21 PM
Ruins entertainment value.

Gives guys like Haren better statistics

That is the main issues

Honestly a bad call/flop cab ruin the entire pace or run a team is on. Not good

kobe4thewinbang
09-06-2014, 02:29 PM
I think it has a big impact because of the foul implications and the unevenness with how much stars get away with it. If you're playing a Harden or a Lebron you're going to put your best defender on him. But if that guy is allowed to get away with flopping then they can force you, through foul trouble, to have to switch your best defender off of him or have that guy sit down for some period of time.This.

mngopher35
09-06-2014, 02:31 PM
I've had recent discussions on defining a player and if flopping is even worth considering. I personally think it is because I believe 1 flop can change the game as much as 1 rebound, 1 block or 1 steal. Just because it's not a counted metric we tend to discount it as being a factor and sweep it under the rug. If a player flops he can get some free throws for easy buckets, get an opposing player in foul trouble or get an opposing team into the penalty that much easier and change the outcome of the game. Currently it's part of the game and how the game is played today so I think it is a factor in changing a game as much as any other stat that's not points or assists (because they directly translate to points) but what do you think?

Discuss

It is worth considering in the sense that we should be trying to eliminate it. It is the same thing as when a ref just makes a bad call (outcome wise). So yes it can affect a game but how often does one bad call do that (and via flop is less likely than just bad call)? Flopping has been around for a very long time and I have never once heard anyone claiming that a series was lost due to flopping or anything. It does have potential to impact a game though which is why I would like harsher penalties.

This is definitely a time when flopping is more prevalent too (multiple reasons) and it will keep happening as long as it gives the team an advantage. That is just how sports work and I hope they make the rules a little bit stiffer for this reason. It isn't on the players to stop trying to get their team an advantage, it is on the league to make it not worth the risk anymore. This is why many greats like MJ, Lebron, Kobe, Miller, Wade, Pierce, Malone, Ainge, Divac, Ginobli and many more have flopped some in their careers. They all are major competitors who want to win.

With that being said I have never seen someone try and use flopping as a way to downgrade a players career or a team's accomplishments. I assume at that point personal bias is playing a huge factor.

ghettosean
09-06-2014, 03:36 PM
It is worth considering in the sense that we should be trying to eliminate it. It is the same thing as when a ref just makes a bad call (outcome wise). So yes it can affect a game but how often does one bad call do that (and via flop is less likely than just bad call)? Flopping has been around for a very long time and I have never once heard anyone claiming that a series was lost due to flopping or anything. It does have potential to impact a game though which is why I would like harsher penalties.

This is definitely a time when flopping is more prevalent too (multiple reasons) and it will keep happening as long as it gives the team an advantage. That is just how sports work and I hope they make the rules a little bit stiffer for this reason. It isn't on the players to stop trying to get their team an advantage, it is on the league to make it not worth the risk anymore. This is why many greats like MJ, Lebron, Kobe, Miller, Wade, Pierce, Malone, Ainge, Divac, Ginobli and many more have flopped some in their careers. They all are major competitors who want to win.

With that being said I have never seen someone try and use flopping as a way to downgrade a players career or a team's accomplishments. I assume at that point personal bias is playing a huge factor.


I agree with you that one bad call just like one flop will not greatly overall affect the outcome of a game more often than not... I think the same for just one rebound or just one block or just one steal it doesn't greatly affect the overall outcome of a game more often than not but if you add them up I believe it does more often then not but if they add up during a game then yes I think they do. Heck even in some cases and it's happened before one bad call can completely change the outcome of a game same with a flop.

As far as the bias you are saying on downgrading a player or not I'm just saying why is this factor ignored even though it's part of how a player played the game so should it be ignored??? If a player averages 2 steals a game for his career or 2 blocks a game and we can judge there rankings on that then why can't we factor in a player flopping twice a game for his career why should they not be judged on the different facets of how they played the game. This is what I don't understand about how it's moronic to bring up flopping when discussing another players career and how they played the game.

Like I said I think a flop changes the game just as much as 1 rebound, 1 steal, 1 block, 1 FGA... etc. I just don't see the difference if there is one as far as an advantage for a player or team.

ghettosean
09-06-2014, 03:39 PM
I like how most posters have made this a constructive debate/conversation thanks for the responses... Lets keep it going.

Clippersfan86
09-06-2014, 03:42 PM
Wanna know something interesting about flopping? It's associated with being soft or bad defense right? Yet arguably THE greatest flopper in NBA history (Dennis Rodman) still maintains his tough guy, elite defense rep. I mean this guy was doing it on the Pistons of all teams! Same with Laimbeer! As said above, people act like it's some new NBA phenomenon.

ghettosean
09-06-2014, 03:51 PM
Wanna know something interesting about flopping? It's associated with being soft or bad defense right? Yet arguably THE greatest flopper in NBA history (Dennis Rodman) still maintains his tough guy, elite defense rep. I mean this guy was doing it on the Pistons of all teams! Same with Laimbeer! As said above, people act like it's some new NBA phenomenon.

I never thought of Rodman to be honest but you are right he did over exaggerate a lot of calls and contact. It's hard to call Dennis soft though same with Laimbeer because on the other side of the ball opposing players were afraid to be around them during a rebound because they might get an elbow in the face or chest. They would also battle hard physically with other players as well so this is more why I think they are called tough. I'm definitely not saying it's new to the league but I would say it's probably the worst it's ever been in the history of the league over the past few years.

This isn't really what the thread is about though I'm more wondering is it worth discussing? Is it as significant as other stats mentioned in my original post??? I'm curious what you and others think.

mngopher35
09-06-2014, 04:21 PM
I agree with you that one bad call just like one flop will not greatly overall affect the outcome of a game more often than not... I think the same for just one rebound or just one block or just one steal it doesn't greatly affect the overall outcome of a game more often than not but if you add them up I believe it does more often then not but if they add up during a game then yes I think they do. Heck even in some cases and it's happened before one bad call can completely change the outcome of a game same with a flop.

As far as the bias you are saying on downgrading a player or not I'm just saying why is this factor ignored even though it's part of how a player played the game so should it be ignored??? If a player averages 2 steals a game for his career or 2 blocks a game and we can judge there rankings on that then why can't we factor in a player flopping twice a game for his career why should they not be judged on the different facets of how they played the game. This is what I don't understand about how it's moronic to bring up flopping when discussing another players career and how they played the game.

Like I said I think a flop changes the game just as much as 1 rebound, 1 steal, 1 block, 1 FGA... etc. I just don't see the difference if there is one as far as an advantage for a player or team.

So basically based on the bold you would say that flopping helps the team doing it? Agreed, it could have the same value as those stats depending on the situation. Which is why I said it is up to the league to fix it because floppers are currently helping their team when it works.

I'll focus on the middle paragraph since I agree with most of the rest. First of all you would need to have some data on how much these players flopped compared to their peers and how often it benefited an individual etc. I have never in my life discussed a players legacy and had flopping factor in as part of a reason to knock a player down. Sure some people might bring it up to take a shot at a guy but that's about it. How many points would you attribute to flopping each night for a player? I see you say twice a game and I challenge you to find me 150 or whatever it is regular season flops from Lebron (especially one's that result in some bonus for him specifically aka ft's or good defender in foul trouble).

Right now it is a flopping league as everyone points out and it would appear you try to discredit Lebron for it but none of the others listed. Where is your outrage on Kobe? Reggie? Pierce? In a 2011 players poll Lebron wasn't even listed as a top 15 flopper but Kobe, Pierce, Ginobli all made it. If you want to try and use flopping as a negative against one person you better be prepared to use same criteria for all who have done it. It would be extremely hard trying to assign a value to each player as well with their differing amounts of flops etc.

Lastly your other thread talks about which of the greats were all time floppers but completely ignores how common flopping was to the rest of the league. Lebron might do it more compared to say Bird but does he more than CP3, Wade, Blake, Harden and other stars of this era? We had the MVP this season flop like crazy coming around a screen in the post season. So while he does it more he also does it in a league where it is much more prevalent.

ghettosean
09-06-2014, 04:59 PM
Not avoiding your posts or others headed out to a wedding and will have to reply tomorrow. I'd love to see more responses/opinions though.

Shawn Kemp40
09-06-2014, 06:38 PM
I just have a problem with defenders jumping under offensive players that are in the air and falling back like they got charged into when clearly they were there late and after the offensive player had already picked up the ball and extablished he was going to shoot or jump and are already in the air and stuff like that. Refs have usually got this wrong so many times over the last 10-15 years.

I don't have a problem with any other flopping. The refs just need to be able to judge it better and make the call if the guy is "actually" fouled.

Munkeysuit
09-06-2014, 06:52 PM
I think it's an admirable craft that more NBA players should practice! I mean it's defense with your mind, quick whit and acting skills! Flopping definitely take some footwork and positioning skills as well! people forget that the best thing about basketball is the aspect of "deception" it's not like these guys aren't faking things the entire time anyways! pump fake, head and shoulder fake, misdirection plays, screens, crossovers, nearly every move is based on deceiving your opponent just enough to gain an advantage.

NYKalltheway
09-06-2014, 08:00 PM
it actually has more impact than a rebound, a steal or a block...

Hawkeye15
09-06-2014, 09:28 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by it being overstated. I'm saying it's as significant as a rebound, steal, block, FGA.... etc.

For example 1 rebound by Bosh on game 6 of the finals completely changed the outcome of the NBA champions that season if Ray Ray or Lebron flopped at the 3 point line and got the call could that have the exact same impact??? Of course it could!

I wouldn't mind examples though of the same team getting hurt by flops. Do you nean in the same way a player gambles on a steal he might make it an easy bucket for the opposition if ge fails to get the steal? If so i fail to see the difference.

If you are purely asking if a specific flop at a specific time can cause something, than yes, for sure it can. Just like a bad call, or any other possible variable in a game.

My point is, people make way too big a deal out of flopping than they should in most cases. Is it annoying watching NBA players pull soccer player moves? Yes. Does it impact the game that much at all? No. It just doesn't.

And again, the greatest floppers ever are long gone, or about to be..

Hawkeye15
09-06-2014, 09:33 PM
Wanna know something interesting about flopping? It's associated with being soft or bad defense right? Yet arguably THE greatest flopper in NBA history (Dennis Rodman) still maintains his tough guy, elite defense rep. I mean this guy was doing it on the Pistons of all teams! Same with Laimbeer! As said above, people act like it's some new NBA phenomenon.

dude, Vlade puts everyone to shame. Manu #2.

Somewhere in a dark Serbian gym, Vlade is sitting in a folding chair, smoke dangling from his mouth, with the sweat of last nights hooker still on him, running a clinic on how to flop.

ewing
09-06-2014, 09:40 PM
dude, Vlade puts everyone to shame. Manu #2.

Somewhere in a dark Serbian gym, Vlade is sitting in a folding chair, smoke dangling from his mouth, with the sweat of last nights hooker still on him, running a clinic on how to flop.


I always picture Vlade are waiting for the team bus, dressed in his European ******** smoking a cig like 30 feet away from the rest of the team

Hawkeye15
09-07-2014, 01:59 AM
I always picture Vlade are waiting for the team bus, dressed in his European ******** smoking a cig like 30 feet away from the rest of the team

and just livid that Nadia took him for an additional 20 euros

FlashBolt
09-07-2014, 03:04 AM
How many flops are truly detrimental in a game? If your excuse as to why a team lost is because someone flopped, then that's just an excuse. I don't think you can find one person who thinks flopping is eccentric and beneficial to the game. However, you can't just seem to get it in your head that players will do anything to win if it comes down to it. Didn't MJ cheat in a game of poker in which no money was wagered? Yet, you're telling me MJ wouldn't pretend to get hit to win an NBA game? Go figure.. Stop trying to pin this on LeBron. One flop every once in a while doesn't change the fact that he's not the best. People like you honestly think flopping is what makes him great...

NYKalltheway
09-07-2014, 08:32 AM
People who say flopping doesn't change the outcome of the game, clearly don't know how to watch a game.

ghettosean
09-08-2014, 12:07 PM
So basically based on the bold you would say that flopping helps the team doing it? Agreed, it could have the same value as those stats depending on the situation. Which is why I said it is up to the league to fix it because floppers are currently helping their team when it works.

I'll focus on the middle paragraph since I agree with most of the rest. First of all you would need to have some data on how much these players flopped compared to their peers and how often it benefited an individual etc. I have never in my life discussed a players legacy and had flopping factor in as part of a reason to knock a player down. Sure some people might bring it up to take a shot at a guy but that's about it. How many points would you attribute to flopping each night for a player? I see you say twice a game and I challenge you to find me 150 or whatever it is regular season flops from Lebron (especially one's that result in some bonus for him specifically aka ft's or good defender in foul trouble).

Right now it is a flopping league as everyone points out and it would appear you try to discredit Lebron for it but none of the others listed. Where is your outrage on Kobe? Reggie? Pierce? In a 2011 players poll Lebron wasn't even listed as a top 15 flopper but Kobe, Pierce, Ginobli all made it. If you want to try and use flopping as a negative against one person you better be prepared to use same criteria for all who have done it. It would be extremely hard trying to assign a value to each player as well with their differing amounts of flops etc.

Lastly your other thread talks about which of the greats were all time floppers but completely ignores how common flopping was to the rest of the league. Lebron might do it more compared to say Bird but does he more than CP3, Wade, Blake, Harden and other stars of this era? We had the MVP this season flop like crazy coming around a screen in the post season. So while he does it more he also does it in a league where it is much more prevalent.

I like the challenge on this to specifically find flops and tally them up but I'm just not going through 82 games from last year to draw up numbers on certain players. In this thread I'm not targeting a certain player or players I'm targeting flopping in general and how valuable an asset it is compared to other stats and I'm not 100% sure but I believe we both agree on this that it is as valuable to the player and team flopping as a rebound, steal or block.

I just think it's something worth discussing and should not be shunned as moronic if it can reward you just as well as other facets of the game (if not more). I understand we do not have the metrics on this but this is where stats aren't everything and sometimes you learn more from watching a player play the game more than looking at a stat line and using that as the only base for comparison of a player. This is one of those examples where stats do not capture everything but I bet if it were it would be more accepted for discussion regarding a players legacy.


Blocks were not being counted when Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell were playing but they are still considered beyond excellent shot blockers when discussing their legacy (I'm not sure if it's because it makes there legacies greater or not but it's no secret). I just notice that when discussing a players legacy and flopping it needs to be hush hush and no one can talk about it without someone losing their temper. Just because it isn't counted does not mean it's nothing of significance and should not be discussed as part of how that player played the game.

ghettosean
09-08-2014, 12:14 PM
How many flops are truly detrimental in a game? If your excuse as to why a team lost is because someone flopped, then that's just an excuse. I don't think you can find one person who thinks flopping is eccentric and beneficial to the game. However, you can't just seem to get it in your head that players will do anything to win if it comes down to it. Didn't MJ cheat in a game of poker in which no money was wagered? Yet, you're telling me MJ wouldn't pretend to get hit to win an NBA game? Go figure.. Stop trying to pin this on LeBron. One flop every once in a while doesn't change the fact that he's not the best. People like you honestly think flopping is what makes him great...

To me the bolded is like asking how many rebounds, steals, or blocks are detrimental to a game and unfortunately the answer is I don't know one rebound might be more valuable than other just like a flop.

I'm not trying to talk about any individual players in this thread I'd like to get the perspective from PSD if they think a flop is much different than other statistics as far as it benefiting a player or a team. I wouldn't mind hearing your opinion is on it.

ghettosean
09-08-2014, 12:26 PM
If you are purely asking if a specific flop at a specific time can cause something, than yes, for sure it can. Just like a bad call, or any other possible variable in a game.

My point is, people make way too big a deal out of flopping than they should in most cases. Is it annoying watching NBA players pull soccer player moves? Yes. Does it impact the game that much at all? No. It just doesn't.

And again, the greatest floppers ever are long gone, or about to be..

We might have to agree to disagree on the effect it has on a game but personally I think it's as game changing as anything else that's not points or assists. I feel more people are tuned into flops when it comes to the end of a game instead of through out the game. I don't think you need a specific flop at a specific time really any game that is close through out the season all you need is one flop either way to change the result from a loss to a win. I mean if you look at Game 6 of the NBA finals last year if anyone from San Antonio flopped once or twice at any point in the game that would have taken then we'd have different NBA champions that year... Which is just as big as Bosh's rebound or Ray Allens FGA from 3... Raptors vs Nets last year in the first round was decided by 1 point if the Raptors flopped just once at any point in game 7 that would have changed the series winner completely which is just as big as any extra FGA to try and win a game.

To say it doesn't impact the game that much at all it's a matter of perspective to me... 1 rebound, 1 steal, 1 block might not change the game at all or it could be pivotal but in any close game in a season all these stats matter just as much as a flop.

(I'd say even more so since you can get points and get the other team in foul trouble... Heck maybe even get the best player on the opposition in foul trouble then it may be even more valuable than a Rebound, Steal, Block... etc)

mngopher35
09-08-2014, 01:59 PM
I like the challenge on this to specifically find flops and tally them up but I'm just not going through 82 games from last year to draw up numbers on certain players. In this thread I'm not targeting a certain player or players I'm targeting flopping in general and how valuable an asset it is compared to other stats and I'm not 100% sure but I believe we both agree on this that it is as valuable to the player and team flopping as a rebound, steal or block.

I just think it's something worth discussing and should not be shunned as moronic if it can reward you just as well as other facets of the game (if not more). I understand we do not have the metrics on this but this is where stats aren't everything and sometimes you learn more from watching a player play the game more than looking at a stat line and using that as the only base for comparison of a player. This is one of those examples where stats do not capture everything but I bet if it were it would be more accepted for discussion regarding a players legacy.


Blocks were not being counted when Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell were playing but they are still considered beyond excellent shot blockers when discussing their legacy (I'm not sure if it's because it makes there legacies greater or not but it's no secret). I just notice that when discussing a players legacy and flopping it needs to be hush hush and no one can talk about it without someone losing their temper. Just because it isn't counted does not mean it's nothing of significance and should not be discussed as part of how that player played the game.

I pretty much do agree with you that flopping could have an effect on the game and I think they should have harsher penalties. My post was mostly in response to all of your threads at once since I saw the Lebron vs. Bird discussion then the following thread as well and finally decided to voice my opinion. I just have never seen someone work so hard to discredit a player due to flopping. Kobe has been doing this since early in his career especially the arm flail but it is never brought up when discussing his rankings (even got voted by players as a top 15 flopper), nor have I seen it for other greats like Reggie, Dirk, or even MJ who was doing it when it was less prevalent in the league.

With everything said I think flopping has happened all throughout the history of the game and while it is more prevalent now I don't think each player is flopping multiple times a game gaining extra benefits. I think it happens every now and then and people make a bigger deal of it these days especially with social media. I mean one of the "toughest" teams ever in the Pistons were huge floppers (rodman and laimbeer especially) but pretty much no one ever talks about it. It isn't just in basketball either though it is like a generational thing I think (not even in a horrible way, more of a anything to win). The first football game of the year and they caught Clay Mathews flopping to get a holding call in the NFL. I saw a flop in playoff hockey during a canadians game last year. These are supposedly the toughest major sports and they are dealing with flopping as well. Part of the "increase" to me is how many cameras we have and all the social media to spread this which is why we SEE it more in all sports.

So while I would agree that flopping could change a game the same way as other statistics could I don't think it is something to judge a player or team on. This isn't something that one player or team is doing for an advantage, everyone is doing it. Players have been doing it for years too, we are just taking more notice as it is popping up more often and throughout all sports. I wouldn't consider flopping in pretty much anyway when talking about a players or team's ranking or ability and I think it statistically would have a very very small impact overall on outcomes of games (especially since both teams are doing it).

I would love to see someone watch some players for 82 games and count the times a flop has helped him (via extra stats or foul trouble for other team). Then compare that to some players in the 80's and 90's. I never actually expected you to do this for the same reason I can't, time. I do think the impact (especially for a team/individual in game) would be much less than you seem to think though.

Sly Guy
09-08-2014, 02:16 PM
yeah, it can totally affect the outcome of the game by being a turning point on a play. It causes a turnover and a foul to be called, both of which, if it happens at a critical juncture, can turn a game on it's head.

But flopping is a part of the game. Not just basketball, but most other sports too. Diving in hockey, soccer, faking a low-blow in boxing etc.....Refs are not infallible, so the players have always and will always try to take use that to gain a competitive advantage. Flopping may take away from the entertainment value of the game, but I have yet to see or hear a reasonable and effective answer for how to remove it from ANY sport.

D-Leethal
09-08-2014, 02:26 PM
The thing that is different about flops than another variable is that is can remove the guy who gets shafted with a foul call completely out of the game for extended period. Even if it doesn't put him on the bench, it will dissuade him from contesting the next shot at the rim or playing physical because at that point, due to the first flop, he will be parked on the bench for extended period with one more foul. In a game with 5 fouls, 1 flop means a whole lot if its going against one of your better players. You can scheme a way to get certain guys in foul trouble and flop your way to execute it.

Chronz
09-08-2014, 03:18 PM
You can consider whatever you want but blanket statements like it being worth a certain stat is utterly false. And here's the real kicker, it only enhances their play because it can in fact help his team win. So even if you had a point, it would only serve in hurting your agenda.

ghettosean
09-08-2014, 03:44 PM
You can consider whatever you want but blanket statements like it being worth a certain stat is utterly false. And here's the real kicker, it only enhances their play because it can in fact help his team win. So even if you had a point, it would only serve in hurting your agenda.

Why is flopping having the same impact as other stats utterly false?

You say in one sentence that it being worth a certain stat is false then in the next sentence you say it enhances play to help his team win??? A stat like a rebound, steal or block can help his team win as well so I don't really understand what you are trying to say. Your post seems very conflicting when reading it.

ghettosean
09-08-2014, 05:28 PM
I pretty much do agree with you that flopping could have an effect on the game and I think they should have harsher penalties. My post was mostly in response to all of your threads at once since I saw the Lebron vs. Bird discussion then the following thread as well and finally decided to voice my opinion. I just have never seen someone work so hard to discredit a player due to flopping. Kobe has been doing this since early in his career especially the arm flail but it is never brought up when discussing his rankings (even got voted by players as a top 15 flopper), nor have I seen it for other greats like Reggie, Dirk, or even MJ who was doing it when it was less prevalent in the league.

With everything said I think flopping has happened all throughout the history of the game and while it is more prevalent now I don't think each player is flopping multiple times a game gaining extra benefits. I think it happens every now and then and people make a bigger deal of it these days especially with social media. I mean one of the "toughest" teams ever in the Pistons were huge floppers (rodman and laimbeer especially) but pretty much no one ever talks about it. It isn't just in basketball either though it is like a generational thing I think (not even in a horrible way, more of a anything to win). The first football game of the year and they caught Clay Mathews flopping to get a holding call in the NFL. I saw a flop in playoff hockey during a canadians game last year. These are supposedly the toughest major sports and they are dealing with flopping as well. Part of the "increase" to me is how many cameras we have and all the social media to spread this which is why we SEE it more in all sports.

So while I would agree that flopping could change a game the same way as other statistics could I don't think it is something to judge a player or team on. This isn't something that one player or team is doing for an advantage, everyone is doing it. Players have been doing it for years too, we are just taking more notice as it is popping up more often and throughout all sports. I wouldn't consider flopping in pretty much anyway when talking about a players or team's ranking or ability and I think it statistically would have a very very small impact overall on outcomes of games (especially since both teams are doing it).

I would love to see someone watch some players for 82 games and count the times a flop has helped him (via extra stats or foul trouble for other team). Then compare that to some players in the 80's and 90's. I never actually expected you to do this for the same reason I can't, time. I do think the impact (especially for a team/individual in game) would be much less than you seem to think though.

Solid post aside from you bringing up other threads in a different thread but I agree with 90% of your post and that flopping goes back and I agree with your Rodman and Laimbeer example that flopping goes back... Those guys were tough as nails in respect to you donít want to be in there rebounding space or you might get an elbow in the chest or face but they did flop. You may be right that it could be social media that is making flopping such a hot topic (I will say that Iím not any social media aside from this forum and I think itís completely out of control). I just donít remember sports casters embracing it back in the day like they do now with the ďYou have to sell it if you want to get the callĒ kind of garbage. I think we can both agree itís probably the worst itís been especially since they are trying to impose penalties to prevent it from becoming bigger than it already has in this era of basketball. Either way I donít agree with flopping in any era as I feel it takes away from the game. I also agree that flopping happens in other sports too as soccer is a great example but Iíll admit Iím Canadian and have never seen a hockey flop before (at least not to my recollection) and I wasnít watching Montreal last year like maybe I should have.

The part I completely disagree with in your post is the bolded... If you think it could change the game the way other statistics do then why can we not judge a player on the different facets on how he plays the game? I mean I understand that everyone can flop and every team can flop I get and understand that as a non factor as far as it being an advantage to just one team and all (though it cheapens the game) but every team can rebound right so why can we judge a team on the amount of rebounds they have in a win/loss or a player who was a great rebounder for his career but we canít talk about if they were a big flopper during their career and compare them to others. If itís a part of the game, vital as most statistics and itís how they play it why is it so hush hush to discuss such a topic I just donít understand it. Iím not sure youíll have an answer for me on this but it doesnít really make sense to me why itís so dismissed when most people are agreeing that itís just as substantial if not more than other stats. I mentioned it in the last post but we can talk about Wilt and Bill Russell being great shot blockers when they were not counting that statistic at that time but we can still say they were beyond amazing shot blockers but when it comes to talking about flopping everyone loses there temper and it makes no sense to me.

Lastly I wish as much as you that someone would go through 82 games to check all the flops and tally them up because having that data would be very interesting to play with and see where different players now a dayís rank in that area or even if we could compare that to other players on the all time scale and different eras of basketball. For now I guess we wonít get the numbers until the NBA wants to count them but for now they seem bent on preventing it from becoming more popular because it takes away from the game. For now well have to use what many make fun of and use our eyes as our judge on this for the time being.....

And maybe some youtube... LOL ;)

mngopher35
09-08-2014, 06:26 PM
Solid post aside from you bringing up other threads in a different thread but I agree with 90% of your post and that flopping goes back and I agree with your Rodman and Laimbeer example that flopping goes back... Those guys were tough as nails in respect to you donít want to be in there rebounding space or you might get an elbow in the chest or face but they did flop. You may be right that it could be social media that is making flopping such a hot topic (I will say that Iím not any social media aside from this forum and I think itís completely out of control). I just donít remember sports casters embracing it back in the day like they do now with the ďYou have to sell it if you want to get the callĒ kind of garbage. I think we can both agree itís probably the worst itís been especially since they are trying to impose penalties to prevent it from becoming bigger than it already has in this era of basketball. Either way I donít agree with flopping in any era as I feel it takes away from the game. I also agree that flopping happens in other sports too as soccer is a great example but Iíll admit Iím Canadian and have never seen a hockey flop before (at least not to my recollection) and I wasnít watching Montreal last year like maybe I should have.

The part I completely disagree with in your post is the bolded... If you think it could change the game the way other statistics do then why can we not judge a player on the different facets on how he plays the game? I mean I understand that everyone can flop and every team can flop I get and understand that as a non factor as far as it being an advantage to just one team and all (though it cheapens the game) but every team can rebound right so why can we judge a team on the amount of rebounds they have in a win/loss or a player who was a great rebounder for his career but we canít talk about if they were a big flopper during their career and compare them to others. If itís a part of the game, vital as most statistics and itís how they play it why is it so hush hush to discuss such a topic I just donít understand it. Iím not sure youíll have an answer for me on this but it doesnít really make sense to me why itís so dismissed when most people are agreeing that itís just as substantial if not more than other stats. I mentioned it in the last post but we can talk about Wilt and Bill Russell being great shot blockers when they were not counting that statistic at that time but we can still say they were beyond amazing shot blockers but when it comes to talking about flopping everyone loses there temper and it makes no sense to me.

Lastly I wish as much as you that someone would go through 82 games to check all the flops and tally them up because having that data would be very interesting to play with and see where different players now a dayís rank in that area or even if we could compare that to other players on the all time scale and different eras of basketball. For now I guess we wonít get the numbers until the NBA wants to count them but for now they seem bent on preventing it from becoming more popular because it takes away from the game. For now well have to use what many make fun of and use our eyes as our judge on this for the time being.....

And maybe some youtube... LOL ;)

You created 3 threads within a couple days all on the same topic, sorry to go off this specific question but I just figured responding once would be fine.

As to the main disagreement part I am not quite sure what you are saying? We should give credit to a player who flops because he is helping his team win (since it is "like a rebound steal block etc.")? I guess you could say floppers could get extra credit but I am not the one who will give it to them.

I think it happens so much less than any of those other "stats" that you mention throughout a game. I don't think any team flops 5 times plus every game or anything (even less make a major impact on the game). If you want to talk about it like a statistic or something you should definitely have some data available to back it up which would take tons of time and effort and I don't think it would be end up being substantial at all personally. If you want to personally pick and choose to give people bonus points or negative due to flopping it is all on you but I wouldn't expect others to agree without any sort of real evidence/data.

I have no idea what you mean by hush hush to talk about this topic but overall I think people have more of a problem just agreeing that x player gets discredit or credited x points because I think he flops too much. This is something that has been going on for years and many stars/players of the past have done as well yet this is the first time I have seen this type of thought process be used. It is a bit more prevalent now but that is true in pretty much every sport and people are more aware and looking for it these days (with more cameras and very easy to spread once it is out). I am not sure the last time you watched a game in the 80's (not calling you out in any way here) but since that is the only way I got to see the era I have watched plenty of it somewhat recently and I think people underestimate how much it happened then compared to now. Just my opinion though and I'm sure the hardcore 80's fans will disagree.

Chronz
09-08-2014, 09:46 PM
Why is flopping having the same impact as other stats utterly false?

You say in one sentence that it being worth a certain stat is false then in the next sentence you say it enhances play to help his team win??? A stat like a rebound, steal or block can help his team win as well so I don't really understand what you are trying to say. Your post seems very conflicting when reading it.
Because all stats don't have the same value as one another, hence the blanket statement making no sense.

That was the minor point tho, the bigger issue is the fact that it helps his teams chances

Jeffy25
09-08-2014, 10:03 PM
I just want players to be suspended if video replay is confirmed by the league office to have been a flop.

You should have to miss your teams next game AND you get fined.

That will probably stop it. Being fined doesn't matter to many of these players.

ghettosean
09-08-2014, 10:47 PM
I just want players to be suspended if video replay is confirmed by the league office to have been a flop.

You should have to miss your teams next game AND you get fined.

That will probably stop it. Being fined doesn't matter to many of these players.

This is 100% what I would want and I think this would put a stop to it as well. If you put a severe enough penalty that will make it hurt the player and the team more than a flopping call will get you it will certainly stop players from attempting it in the future and will also be better off for the league as far as entertainment.

ghettosean
09-08-2014, 10:53 PM
Because all stats don't have the same value as one another, hence the blanket statement making no sense.

That was the minor point tho, the bigger issue is the fact that it helps his teams chances

So based on opinion do you find that it is more rewarding to a team or player what you get from a flop (personal foul on the opposing team and player, possible FTA and possibly getting the opposing team in a penalty situation) or a rebound, block, steal... etc.

What is your take? I certainly agree that different statistics have different value but what is your take on the above stats mentioned compared to a flopping call.

mngopher35
09-08-2014, 11:45 PM
I just want players to be suspended if video replay is confirmed by the league office to have been a flop.

You should have to miss your teams next game AND you get fined.

That will probably stop it. Being fined doesn't matter to many of these players.

Yup, completely agree.

ghettosean
09-09-2014, 05:36 PM
You created 3 threads within a couple days all on the same topic, sorry to go off this specific question but I just figured responding once would be fine.

As to the main disagreement part I am not quite sure what you are saying? We should give credit to a player who flops because he is helping his team win (since it is "like a rebound steal block etc.")? I guess you could say floppers could get extra credit but I am not the one who will give it to them.

I think it happens so much less than any of those other "stats" that you mention throughout a game. I don't think any team flops 5 times plus every game or anything (even less make a major impact on the game). If you want to talk about it like a statistic or something you should definitely have some data available to back it up which would take tons of time and effort and I don't think it would be end up being substantial at all personally. If you want to personally pick and choose to give people bonus points or negative due to flopping it is all on you but I wouldn't expect others to agree without any sort of real evidence/data.

I have no idea what you mean by hush hush to talk about this topic but overall I think people have more of a problem just agreeing that x player gets discredit or credited x points because I think he flops too much. This is something that has been going on for years and many stars/players of the past have done as well yet this is the first time I have seen this type of thought process be used. It is a bit more prevalent now but that is true in pretty much every sport and people are more aware and looking for it these days (with more cameras and very easy to spread once it is out). I am not sure the last time you watched a game in the 80's (not calling you out in any way here) but since that is the only way I got to see the era I have watched plenty of it somewhat recently and I think people underestimate how much it happened then compared to now. Just my opinion though and I'm sure the hardcore 80's fans will disagree.


In this thread I'm not saying flopping is a stat I'm basically comparing it to other statistics and asking the value of a flop compared to counted stats like rebounding, blocks, steals.. etc. Most are agreeing that a flop is equal or greater value than the statistics I'm mentioning and my main point is so what if we are not counting flopping in a statistical category now. I keep mentioning Wilt and Bill Russell as being amazing or beyond amazing shot blockers but this was not a counted statistic back then but we are still able to say what great shot blockers they are and what is wrong with saying that? It's part of the game and it's one of the facets and great skills they used during there careers. What exactly is wrong with saying player A, B and C are or were floppers and pointing that out when discussing legacy as I'm not sure why one is accepted and the other is not when discussing or comparing legacies. I donít see anything wrong with people in the 60's going wow these guys are great shot blockers just because itís not being tracked by the league.

Saying I have no evidence/data when discussing its value towards a player or team is just a tad hypocritical when you are telling me it has little to no impact (basically Iím saying you should get your data and facts if you are going to say that but like me you are using observation to base your opinion and I find no fault in that) ;) Though I just want to make it clear that Iím not calling a flop a statistic but Iím asking in this thread what itís value is compared to other stats like I mentioned in the opening post of this thread. Besides the NBA will not make something they are doing the best they can to abolish and make it a statistic for all to see and base numbers off of... It would be humiliating to have data on players flopping and show how wide spread it is and then people could measure if the issue is getting worse. They would be no means release these numbers unless they embrace flops.

Forget about data for a second and use logic... ANY GAME that's close during the regular season or playoffs (and there are many during a season letís not kid ourselves) can be greatly affected by any amount of flopping and that flop can be done during any part of the game and could affect whether a team wins or loses. To me itís simple logic to say that much though we can go deeper but Iíll leave it at that for now.

Tony_Starks
09-09-2014, 06:25 PM
The only way to curve it would be to really go hard on it at the beginning of the season. Like giving out technicals hard. Players would get the point. If it went from rewarding players with FTs to actually costing their team a point they'd knock it off.

The refs can police it when they concentrate on it, for example Harden doesn't get his usual flop calls in the playoffs.

mngopher35
09-09-2014, 08:00 PM
In this thread I'm not saying flopping is a stat I'm basically comparing it to other statistics and asking the value of a flop compared to counted stats like rebounding, blocks, steals.. etc. Most are agreeing that a flop is equal or greater value than the statistics I'm mentioning and my main point is so what if we are not counting flopping in a statistical category now. I keep mentioning Wilt and Bill Russell as being amazing or beyond amazing shot blockers but this was not a counted statistic back then but we are still able to say what great shot blockers they are and what is wrong with saying that? It's part of the game and it's one of the facets and great skills they used during there careers. What exactly is wrong with saying player A, B and C are or were floppers and pointing that out when discussing legacy as I'm not sure why one is accepted and the other is not when discussing or comparing legacies. I donít see anything wrong with people in the 60's going wow these guys are great shot blockers just because itís not being tracked by the league.

That is totally fine to call players floppers etc. I have never once said that you can't call people out for flopping. What I have seen you do is single out an individual player and decide on your own criteria how much to diminish only him. People called you out not because you said player x flops, but because you singled him out and decided it diminished his value as a player in a different thread (even though it helped his team which you have been pointing out). Here let me show you what people/myself have actually have a problem with...


The stats are there though if you want to take a look or disprove me. Sorry to talk about flopping but it does and is the reason his FTA are so much higher than Bird and also would cause his PPG to be higher also on offense but the acting job he puts on today would not fly in the 80's PERIOD. I pegged him down for skill because he's getting more points off of cheating to get to the free throw line and HE IS THE BIGGEST FLOPPER OUT OF ANY ALL TIME GREAT at least any of the elite in the top 20 heck maybe even top 50. That's pretty significant when comparing him to any all time greats and ranking him amongst them.

It is quotes like this that decide to discredit only one player, make false statements about it not working in the 80's, and ignore the context of flopping through sports in general. I have no problem mentioning flopping in association to a player. Drawing your own conclusions and only focusing on one player to discredit is where the issue lies and why I previously mentioned bias. Don't twist this as if I have been claiming we can't discuss flopping because it isn't a stat like blocking wasn't in the 60's. I have no issues with discussing it and seem to share the same opinion on needing to find a better fix. You, however, took it further than that which I have stated before and now provided an example of.


Saying I have no evidence/data when discussing its value towards a player or team is just a tad hypocritical when you are telling me it has little to no impact (basically Iím saying you should get your data and facts if you are going to say that but like me you are using observation to base your opinion and I find no fault in that) ;) Though I just want to make it clear that Iím not calling a flop a statistic but Iím asking in this thread what itís value is compared to other stats like I mentioned in the opening post of this thread. Besides the NBA will not make something they are doing the best they can to abolish and make it a statistic for all to see and base numbers off of... It would be humiliating to have data on players flopping and show how wide spread it is and then people could measure if the issue is getting worse. They would be no means release these numbers unless they embrace flops.

I am not making any sort of statistical adjustment to players or trying to claim it helped x player this much compared to others, you were. So it isn't hypocritical of me at all to ask for data or evidence when you made those claims above. My statement said I think it isn't as prevalent as you claim, that is all (opinion of an opinion).


Forget about data for a second and use logic... ANY GAME that's close during the regular season or playoffs (and there are many during a season letís not kid ourselves) can be greatly affected by any amount of flopping and that flop can be done during any part of the game and could affect whether a team wins or loses. To me itís simple logic to say that much though we can go deeper but Iíll leave it at that for now.

Yes, it could be affected we agree here and I have said this before. I just don't share the same opinion with you of how much/often it affects the games.

mngopher35
09-09-2014, 08:04 PM
The only way to curve it would be to really go hard on it at the beginning of the season. Like giving out technicals hard. Players would get the point. If it went from rewarding players with FTs to actually costing their team a point they'd knock it off.

The refs can police it when they concentrate on it, for example Harden doesn't get his usual flop calls in the playoffs.

Technical or even suspension, something more than just a fine. I really like the bold as that is the major issue here to me. As long as it helps them win games they will likely keep doing it. If it costs them points or time on the court that should change things pretty quickly imo.

ghettosean
09-10-2014, 04:00 PM
You are somewhat derailing the thread and making it about other threads (I've mentioned this a few times now) but I will respond to this...


That is totally fine to call players floppers etc. I have never once said that you can't call people out for flopping. What I have seen you do is single out an individual player and decide on your own criteria how much to diminish only him. People called you out not because you said player x flops, but because you singled him out and decided it diminished his value as a player in a different thread (even though it helped his team which you have been pointing out). Here let me show you what people/myself have actually have a problem with...

You are saying I singled out a player in a different thread that was about 3 players just 3 and my 1st post of that thread related to all 3 players (look it up if you want). The thread itself got focused on Lebron and I voiced my opinion and debated with other posters so please don't say I personally singled this player out. I did discredit him as a flopper but so what he is a flopper it's known lots of stars in the NBA today are floppers Chris Paul, Harden, Wade... etc... etc... etc... I discredit them as well if you want but the thread was not about those other players so why mention them or others???



It is quotes like this that decide to discredit only one player, make false statements about it not working in the 80's, and ignore the context of flopping through sports in general. I have no problem mentioning flopping in association to a player. Drawing your own conclusions and only focusing on one player to discredit is where the issue lies and why I previously mentioned bias. Don't twist this as if I have been claiming we can't discuss flopping because it isn't a stat like blocking wasn't in the 60's. I have no issues with discussing it and seem to share the same opinion on needing to find a better fix. You, however, took it further than that which I have stated before and now provided an example of.

You don't have to agree with my logic but to me if you flop and are one of the biggest amongst stars you are going to naturally have more free throw attempts to me this is just logical. I'm not going to apologize for what I said in a different thread if that's what you are after to me it's correct and the quote taken out of context when you post it in this thread on a different subject. I did draw my own conclusion though that if you flop you get more free throw attempts and I stand by that but who knows maybe I'm wrong. I did use all the statistical data available when drawing my conclusion as flopping stats are not available as the NBA would be completely humiliated to release such results to show how many players are faking contact/fouls... Like I mentioned with data like this people would have hard data to show if flopping is getting worse but either way releasing the data would be foolish. I will again add that the thread you are bringing up was about 3 players and yes I did focus on Lebron as did most of the posters in the thread regardless if the post was positive or not.



I am not making any sort of statistical adjustment to players or trying to claim it helped x player this much compared to others, you were. So it isn't hypocritical of me at all to ask for data or evidence when you made those claims above. My statement said I think it isn't as prevalent as you claim, that is all (opinion of an opinion).

This statement I would like to apologize for you did not make statements regarding it not having any or little effect on a game this was other posters in the thread. You only said "you think" and I misread so I take back that statement.



Yes, it could be affected we agree here and I have said this before. I just don't share the same opinion with you of how much/often it affects the games.

This is again something that I'm sticking with any game that finishes with a close result one flop can change the entire game or series. Look at the Toronto Raptors vs New Jersey this year in the first round the Nets won by one point that could have changed the entire series if the Raptors threw a good extra flop anytime during the game. If you look at Miami in game 6 of the finals last year if they flopped a few more times in regulation they might not have needed Ray Ray to hit that three to win the game and series. Any flop in any game that ends close can change and alter the end result but we may need to agree to disagree on how often it can affect a game.

You agree as far as people from the 60's saying players like Wilt and Russell are great shot blockers and some today say they are the greatest of all time and just because the data wasn't being recorded at the time doesn't make them wrong they may have been and still be the best by a wide margin. The only data is based on observation and the legacy that was passed down by those who observed them. I see nothing wrong with drawing conclusions from observation if data is not available.

This thread is not about Lebron nor do I want it to be as I have not brought up or singled out any players in this thread (Maybe Rodman and Lambier as other posters brought this up). If you have issue with what I said in another thread by all means reply to the post or debate it in the other thread on that subject.

I would like to discuss flopping and how it affects the game and how valuable a flop is compared to other statistics and get everyone's opinion on the subject.

ghettosean
09-10-2014, 04:07 PM
The only way to curve it would be to really go hard on it at the beginning of the season. Like giving out technicals hard. Players would get the point. If it went from rewarding players with FTs to actually costing their team a point they'd knock it off.

The refs can police it when they concentrate on it, for example Harden doesn't get his usual flop calls in the playoffs.

I say forget technicals just go right to suspensions after the game is reviewed because catching this mid game is difficult enough for the referee's nevermind catching regular fouls. That should put a stop to the issue as fines of $5000 are nothing to a player whose getting paid millions. If it's consistently caught during review the problem should go away and the game would be more exciting for fans and referee's could just focus on contact instead of 2nd guessing themselves if a player is embellishing contact.

IKnowHoops
09-11-2014, 05:11 PM
Nothing wrong with accentuating real fouls to make sure refs don't get the call. Not getting touched and faking you got hit in the eye like Ginobli does, and what wade got him back with is lame.