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View Full Version : Differences between the Nash/Amare and Stockon/Malone hierarchy.



Chronz
09-05-2014, 03:27 PM
This is NOT a thread asking which duo you think was better, frankly, the longevity and defensive side of the ball are what separate the pair. This is about how differently we view the hierarchy between the playmaker and finisher for both squads.

Why was Nash considered the MVP of his team but Malone for his? Was it simply a difference in talent, or is there another factor at play?

The Suns were in the gutter when Nash first arrived, he was credited for their massive turn around, much of that was deservedly so, but it was also perfect timing. Its much different when your an established star joining a young phenoms team vs growing together and coming into your own abit later. Both Nash and Stockton could have been equally responsible for elevating their teams level of play, but the fact that Amare was an unknown and Malone was the established guy is going to influence everyone's perception abit.


Is there anyone who believes Amare could have been his teams best player, or was Nash the clear MVP. What about Stockton being his teams MVP?

ewing
09-05-2014, 03:36 PM
the Suns won games by forcing tempo. Amare ran and might have filled lanes better then any PF in the league but Nash was the guy pushing the rock

Sly Guy
09-05-2014, 03:54 PM
I think the biggest key is watching what happened to the suns' offense when nash took to the bench. It became putrid, and that to me shows his value to that side.

tredigs
09-05-2014, 03:58 PM
I've always felt Stockton was the Jazz MVP. I'd be curious to hear what Jazz fans of that era would say.

Chronz
09-05-2014, 04:12 PM
I think the biggest key is watching what happened to the suns' offense when nash took to the bench. It became putrid, and that to me shows his value to that side.

Thats something that really shows up in the +/- metrics but is it possible that Stockton could have had a similar impact. You could also argue its a sign of coaching and reliance on his system, its not like we didn't see Amare eventually lead his own team, however short it lasted.

Also, do you feel like Nash was always more important or was there ever a year where Amare made a compelling case.


the Suns won games by forcing tempo. Amare ran and might have filled lanes better then any PF in the league but Nash was the guy pushing the rock

Does this suggest that Stockton was more valuable when the Jazz were pushing tempo? Remember, this duo has been around a LONG time, they were young once as well.

ewing
09-05-2014, 04:17 PM
Thats something that really shows up in the +/- metrics but is it possible that Stockton could have had a similar impact. You could also argue its a sign of coaching and reliance on his system, its not like we didn't see Amare eventually lead his own team, however short it lasted.

Also, do you feel like Nash was always more important or was there ever a year where Amare made a compelling case.



Does this suggest that Stockton was more valuable when the Jazz were pushing tempo? Remember, this duo has been around a LONG time, they were young once as well.

IDK, I do think it you are reliant on a player creating tempo then that player is most valuable offensive player

Oefarmy2005
09-05-2014, 04:25 PM
Both Stockton and Malone are so much better than their counterparts, that this conversation is silly. Stockton was a much better allaround player than Nash, and I am not even going to bother comparing Malone to Amare.

Chronz
09-05-2014, 04:29 PM
Both Stockton and Malone are so much better than their counterparts, that this conversation is silly. Stockton was a much better allaround player than Nash, and I am not even going to bother comparing Malone to Amare.

Read the thread. Its not a comparison between Nash vs Stockton and Malone vs Amare. If you do want to boil it down to a comparison, its about Nash vs Amare and Stockton vs Malone.

FlashBolt
09-05-2014, 04:40 PM
I think Malone could've sustained the Jazz alone while Amare relied much more on Nash's skillset.

Shawn Kemp 40
09-05-2014, 04:52 PM
It's the way a lot of people are in love with the guard play today.

Amare in his day was actually a better overall player than Nash.

Amare was only like 21 so he didn't get the national credit while Nash was already 30 and like I said there seems to be a media push in the last 10 years to sell the guard.

Amare was really the leader of that team. Fool averaged 35 and 10 on 60% shooting vs Duncan in the 05 Playoffs. Also had a season where he averaged 26 and 10 on 55% shooting.

PurpleLynch
09-05-2014, 08:54 PM
In my opinion Suns's "heriarchy"was right,while Jazz's "heriarchy" was wrong.
-Nash was clearly the mastermind behind that team and without him the team would have been without an identity.
-Stockton was always underrated imo,but he was Jazz's Mvp as much as Malone. Even a player like Payton said that his nightmare match up on defense was Stockton. Yes,Gary Payton who was best known for his defense said that his biggest threat on D was Stockton. That says a lot.

JasonJohnHorn
09-05-2014, 09:04 PM
I think people overvalue scoring. Malone was the scorer.

The Nash scenario was different because we SAW how $#!T the Suns were without Nash, and all of a sudden they were a contender with him.

Amare and Marion were already looking like 20/10 guys before Nash got there, but they were a lottery team Marbury out, Nash is. All-Star for All-Star, but the team goes from 29-62 wins?

I think people saw that improvement and gave Nash the credit because he was the primary difference. We never saw a jump like that with the Jazz because Stockon and Malone grew up together on that team.


But that said, I remember watching the playoffs and commentators bemoaning that Nash shouldn't have gotten MVP because he wasn't even the best player on his TEAM let alone the league.

But it is not the "Best Player Award", it is the "Most Valuable Player Award", and Nash WAS the most valuable player to his team. No doubt, and he proved that the next two seasons. When Amare was out, they still won, when Nash was out they didn't.



The sad thing is that Nash got all that credit, but everything Nash did well, Stockton did better AND he could play defence (though he was more of an exceptional team-defender and lane watcher than lock-down one-on-one defender).

Malone got the credit because he was challenging Jordan for scoring title and Rodman for rebounding titles, mean while, nobody paid attention to Stockton leading the league in assists and steals.

When you consider how much better Stockton was than Nash, and then realize that Stockton never even got a second place vote in the MVP balloting while Nash came away with TWO MVP awards and finished second in voting on a third occasion, it becomes clear how UNDERAPPRECIATED Stockton was.

I mean, Tom Chamebrs finished ahead of Stockton in MVP voting. Terry Porter and Kevin Johnson both finished ahead of him. TERRY PORTER!!! KJ... ok... that one year.. he was a great point guard. Dennis Rodman. Mark Price. Mookie Blaylock (who was NEVER better than Stockton in any season, much as I loved the guy). Chris Mullin. Joe Dumars. Glen Rice? When was Glen Rice EVER better than Stockton? Anthony Mason? Mitch Richmond finished ahead of Stockton in MVP voting when he was on a lottery team and Stockton was headed to the finals! Vin Baker. Antoine Walker. Antoine FAWKING WALEKR!!!! In 99, Stockton didn't even get a vote while Mark Jackson (7 points a game), who was clearly inferior, did. Hell, Darrell Armstrong got a vote that year.

You take Stockton off that roster for a year, and you'd see how $#!T they were without him. Bring him, back, and he'd finish at the top of the MVP voting so long as Jordan isn't in the race.

People just never had an appreciation for what Stockton did. It's sad.

THE MTL
09-05-2014, 09:08 PM
This is NOT a thread asking which duo you think was better, frankly, the longevity and defensive side of the ball are what separate the pair. This is about how differently we view the hierarchy between the playmaker and finisher for both squads.

Why was Nash considered the MVP of his team but Malone for his? Was it simply a difference in talent, or is there another factor at play?

The Suns were in the gutter when Nash first arrived, he was credited for their massive turn around, much of that was deservedly so, but it was also perfect timing. Its much different when your an established star joining a young phenoms team vs growing together and coming into your own abit later. Both Nash and Stockton could have been equally responsible for elevating their teams level of play, but the fact that Amare was an unknown and Malone was the established guy is going to influence everyone's perception abit.


Is there anyone who believes Amare could have been his teams best player, or was Nash the clear MVP. What about Stockton being his teams MVP?

Simple answer to this thread is Nash's 2nd MVP season where Amare was out the entire year. That team still won 60 games.

Also wasn't there some statistic where phoenix lost every game that Nash didn't play that year.

Stockton/Malone I really can't comment on cause I didnt see them play. But judging from stockton stats I consider him the Ultimate PG

Clippersfan86
09-05-2014, 09:24 PM
One duo had a child molester, the other didn't.

ewing
09-05-2014, 09:33 PM
by the way interesting thread Chonz

Shady66
09-05-2014, 09:45 PM
Simple answer to this thread is Nash's 2nd MVP season where Amare was out the entire year. That team still won 60 games.

Also wasn't there some statistic where phoenix lost every game that Nash didn't play that year.

Stockton/Malone I really can't comment on cause I didnt see them play. But judging from stockton stats I consider him the Ultimate PG

Was going to post the first part of what you said

JasonJohnHorn
09-05-2014, 10:12 PM
One duo had a child molester, the other didn't.

Wait, what? Who was the child molester? Is there a HUGE piece of news that I have somehow missed?

EDIT: Malone, eh? Never heard that. I looked it up. He was 19 (or 20?), she was 13. Not cool. I don't think I'd brand him a child molester for life for that. If you're 19 or 20, and she looks a little older, you might not know any better, or maybe he did. I have no clue what the situation was. Regardless, rape is rape, statutory or not. I am disappointed to hear this, but I'm not sure the label fits here.

Clippersfan86
09-05-2014, 11:10 PM
Wait, what? Who was the child molester? Is there a HUGE piece of news that I have somehow missed?

EDIT: Malone, eh? Never heard that. I looked it up. He was 19 (or 20?), she was 13. Not cool. I don't think I'd brand him a child molester for life for that. If you're 19 or 20, and she looks a little older, you might not know any better, or maybe he did. I have no clue what the situation was. Regardless, rape is rape, statutory or not. I am disappointed to hear this, but I'm not sure the label fits here.

Knocked her up when she was 12. She had the baby at 13. Creepy sh** man.

flea
09-05-2014, 11:27 PM
The Mailman comes after school's out.

JasonJohnHorn
09-06-2014, 12:12 AM
Knocked her up when she was 12. She had the baby at 13. Creepy sh** man.

Yeah.... I mean, I realize some girls look older... but... 12? I me, he was relatively young himself still (20 or 19), but.... yeah.

It's not a pattern of behaviour though, as far as we know, so I'd hate to put a label on him for that, and it happened over 30 years ago.


That is just fawked.

Chronz
09-06-2014, 12:37 AM
Simple answer to this thread is Nash's 2nd MVP season where Amare was out the entire year. That team still won 60 games.
They won 54 and were taken to the brink of elimination by 2 inferior clubs. This after adding a few quality pieces as well.


Also wasn't there some statistic where phoenix lost every game that Nash didn't play that year.
Pretty good supporting evidence, I wonder what the stats look like for Stockton and Malone. And to your point, its worth noting that it was a brutal stretch in their schedule and some games were tight. Nash was probably more of the engine that drove that team that year, but was that the case throughout their entire tenure together?





The Nash scenario was different because we SAW how $#!T the Suns were without Nash, and all of a sudden they were a contender with him.

Amare and Marion were already looking like 20/10 guys before Nash got there, but they were a lottery team Marbury out, Nash is. All-Star for All-Star, but the team goes from 29-62 wins?

I think people saw that improvement and gave Nash the credit because he was the primary difference. We never saw a jump like that with the Jazz because Stockon and Malone grew up together on that team.
Agreed, but is that really fair when Amare wasn't the player he would soon become. He and Joe Johnson developing played a big role as well, adding Q was also pretty important. Fair to say those guys would have improved somewhat.




I mean, Tom Chamebrs finished ahead of Stockton in MVP voting. Terry Porter and Kevin Johnson both finished ahead of him. TERRY PORTER!!! KJ... ok... that one year.. he was a great point guard. Dennis Rodman. Mark Price. Mookie Blaylock (who was NEVER better than Stockton in any season, much as I loved the guy). Chris Mullin. Joe Dumars. Glen Rice? When was Glen Rice EVER better than Stockton? Anthony Mason? Mitch Richmond finished ahead of Stockton in MVP voting when he was on a lottery team and Stockton was headed to the finals! Vin Baker. Antoine Walker. Antoine FAWKING WALEKR!!!! In 99, Stockton didn't even get a vote while Mark Jackson (7 points a game), who was clearly inferior, did. Hell, Darrell Armstrong got a vote that year.

You take Stockton off that roster for a year, and you'd see how $#!T they were without him. Bring him, back, and he'd finish at the top of the MVP voting so long as Jordan isn't in the race.

People just never had an appreciation for what Stockton did. It's sad.

Im thinking something similar but not sure if Stockton was the 2nd best PG as PSD rated him.

SanPitte
09-06-2014, 04:50 AM
Stockton was underrated in MVP votings for sure, but Malone was the Jazz's MVP and Nash the Suns' because of their overall stats. If Stockton had averaged 20pts a game on top of all his assists and steals, and if Amar'e had averaged more rebounds, they might have been their team's MVP, hence league MVP