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View Full Version : No Player in NBA History Has More Points Than Kobe Bryant By Age 36



MetroMan
08-25-2014, 07:29 PM
Thoughts?

GREATNESS ONE
08-25-2014, 07:32 PM
His Per and WS/ are crap and was never the best player overall in one season.

Take it from a guy who's never missed a game Kobe has played in.

Bruno
08-25-2014, 07:33 PM
impressive considering the fact that he missed last year.

jaydubb
08-25-2014, 07:40 PM
:up:

albertajaysfan
08-25-2014, 07:54 PM
Considering he came out of high school and is a scorer, he should have that title. That doesn't diminish the accomplishment much but it is just a counting stat and he has played a lot of games and taken a lot of shots.

MetroMan
08-25-2014, 07:59 PM
impressive considering the fact that he missed last year.

Plus he was involved in 2 lockouts

JAZZNC
08-25-2014, 08:12 PM
Ok, he has three or four years on a lotta guys he is "ahead" of and he has had the luxury of being on some quite terrible teams where he just got to shoot all he wanted.

Bruno
08-25-2014, 08:19 PM
Considering he came out of high school and is a scorer, he should have that title. That doesn't diminish the accomplishment much but it is just a counting stat and he has played a lot of games and taken a lot of shots.

4th all time in FGAs, 4th in total points. sounds about right. by your math he'd have to have been averaging 31 points a game since day one in the NBA as an 18 year old to pass Kareem.

Bruno
08-25-2014, 08:20 PM
Ok, he has three or four years on a lotta guys he is "ahead" of and he has had the luxury of being on some quite terrible teams where he just got to shoot all he wanted.

he was a reserve when he was 18 and 19. kobe has really only been on two or three bad teams.

Bostonjorge
08-25-2014, 08:32 PM
Didn't start until year 4 and won 3 strait titles his first 3 years as a starter. Those first 3 years cut into his scoring big time. Also had 2 lockouts and missed 70+ games in a season. He should of been #3 in all time scoring and #1 all time playoff scoring already.

jerellh528
08-25-2014, 08:35 PM
His impressive career is top 5 all time

Bruno
08-25-2014, 08:38 PM
Didn't start until year 4 and won 3 strait titles his first 3 years as a starter. Those first 3 years cut into his scoring big time. Also had 2 lockouts and missed 70+ games in a season. He should of been #3 in all time scoring and #1 all time playoff scoring already.

he was a couple post-seasons away from catching Jordan and Kareem in playoff scoring, before the injury.

Bostonjorge
08-25-2014, 08:42 PM
He needs 300 points. That's 1 playoff run.

FlashBolt
08-25-2014, 08:44 PM
Top 5 for sure. Not surprised he has the most points by age 36, though. Coming out of HS will give you that.

ManRam
08-25-2014, 08:47 PM
His longevity, even with last year, is undoubtedly hyper-impressive.

We'll see if this next crop of players can catch him.

PowerHouse
08-25-2014, 09:01 PM
His Per and WS/ are crap and was never the best player overall in one season.

Take it from a guy who's never missed a game Kobe has played in.

Crap? Really? You might have Kobe confused with Allen Iverson.

Jamiecballer
08-25-2014, 09:02 PM
He's a great scorer.

Leftcoast_yg
08-25-2014, 09:08 PM
81 point game and the 63 point game vs the mavs really defines his skill set as player who can score so many ways in and out of the paint.

mightybosstone
08-25-2014, 09:21 PM
It's not just Kobe's longevity that's impressive, but his sustained greatness over that long period of time. I'm very curious to see how he plays this season, because I could very easily see a determined Kobe put up 25/5/5 this season and start making a legitimate push to pass Kareem. He'll almost certainly pass Jordan this year if he stays healthy and he could feasibly pass Kareem in as few as four years.

GREATNESS ONE
08-25-2014, 09:25 PM
he was a reserve when he was 18 and 19. kobe has really only been on two or three bad teams.

I was gonna bring that up but I just let the youngsters amuse me. :)

ThuglifeJ
08-25-2014, 09:26 PM
His Per and WS/ are crap and was never the best player overall in one season.

Take it from a guy who's never missed a game Kobe has played in.

The year he won his last title...you think someone was better?

Bruno
08-25-2014, 09:26 PM
His longevity, even with last year, is undoubtedly hyper-impressive.

We'll see if this next crop of players can catch him.

LBJ and Durant will both pass him so long as they play long enough. they were putting up bigger numbers as rookies and sophomores.

GREATNESS ONE
08-25-2014, 09:27 PM
Crap? Really? You might have Kobe confused with Allen Iverson.

;)

Minimal
08-25-2014, 09:28 PM
Crap? Really? You might have Kobe confused with Allen Iverson.
Well his PER and WS aren't anything special lets be real here. 23.4 Career PER. Wade has 25.3 career PER, LeBron 27.8. WS/48 Kobe .182, Wade .192, LeBron .243. LeBron will probably surpass Kobes all career win shares next season already.

GREATNESS ONE
08-25-2014, 09:28 PM
LBJ and Durant will both pass him so long as they play long enough. they were putting up bigger numbers as rookies and sophomores.

Idk about all that.

jerellh528
08-25-2014, 09:48 PM
Well his PER and WS aren't anything special lets be real here. 23.4 Career PER. Wade has 25.3 career PER, LeBron 27.8. WS/48 Kobe .182, Wade .192, LeBron .243. LeBron will probably surpass Kobes all career win shares next season already.

Just shows how flawed those statistical theories are. Wade isn't very close to Kobe as a player.

Mr.B
08-25-2014, 09:51 PM
Dirk will pass him before he's done playing

KnickNyKnick
08-25-2014, 10:08 PM
LBJ will decimate this by his 18 season

JasonJohnHorn
08-25-2014, 10:12 PM
This speaks more to the age he entered the league in, and not so much how quickly he scored them.

LBJ is already on pace to easily eclipse that number, and Kareem scored more points by the time he reached that season total, he just happened to play in college for four years first.

It is impressive, but in context, he hasn't really set a record-breaking pace, he just started earlier.

LBJ has more points by the age of 29 than Kobe had... so...

Put it this way: In 18 years, Kobe scored 31,700 points. In 18 years Kareem scored 36,474 points. In 18 seasons, Karl Malone scored 36,374. So Kobe is really only in third in terms of total points per season.

D_Rose1118
08-25-2014, 10:26 PM
MJ will always be looked at as the better scorer... kobe just just kept playing

still a great accomplishment, Kobe is one the top 10 basketball players who ever lived forget stats and accomplishments for once, im talking an array of moves that is only matched by a few in history

and he has the tim duncan, Kareem longevity accomplishment

mightybosstone
08-25-2014, 10:42 PM
Dirk will pass him before he's done playing

Mmm... It's not impossible, but it's not super likely. They're the same age and if Kobe comes back healthy this year, he's likely going to score more points this season than Dirk. Dirk is about 5,000 points behind Kobe. Kobe could retire tomorrow and Dirk would still have to have three seasons of identical production to last year (about 1,700 points) just to pass him. Except it's not likely that Kobe will retire tomorrow or that Dirk is going to continue producing at this same level in 2-3 years.

I'd put the odds of Dirk catching Kobe at less than 20 percent, but I suppose only time will tell. Assuming both guys stay relatively healthy until they retire, though, I don't think Dirk has a chance in hell of catching him.

Mr.B
08-25-2014, 11:01 PM
Mmm... It's not impossible, but it's not super likely. They're the same age and if Kobe comes back healthy this year, he's likely going to score more points this season than Dirk. Dirk is about 5,000 points behind Kobe. Kobe could retire tomorrow and Dirk would still have to have three seasons of identical production to last year (about 1,700 points) just to pass him. Except it's not likely that Kobe will retire tomorrow or that Dirk is going to continue producing at this same level in 2-3 years.

I'd put the odds of Dirk catching Kobe at less than 20 percent, but I suppose only time will tell. Assuming both guys stay relatively healthy until they retire, though, I don't think Dirk has a chance in hell of catching him.
I think Kobe's body has shown that he doesn't have much longer. Its failed him the last couple of years. His heart is obviously still in it I jut don't think his body will hold up. Dirk on the other hand is a jump shooter and has been relatively healthy late in his career. Barring some kind of freak injury I think Dirk will end up passing Kobe at the very end of his career. Kobe may end up being the final person he passes on the all time scoring list. Even if he doesn't it will be fun watching him get close. Watching him start off as that gangly awkward looking 7 foot blond kid with earrings and a chili bowl haircut to one of the all time great scorers in NBA history is amazing.

Shlumpledink
08-25-2014, 11:05 PM
Kobe defines an era, especially when you consider how many players came into the league that have modeled his game. It is like Dr J passed the torch to MJ, MJ to Kobe, Kobe to this new crop of players. I don't want to say he passed it to Lebron, because Lebron is a different type of player, but he is an athletic wing player drafted out of high school who can score using a phenomenal combination of skill and athleticism, so he is a successor in that respect.

DemarDerozan
08-25-2014, 11:22 PM
Kobe defines an era, especially when you consider how many players came into the league that have modeled his game. It is like Dr J passed the torch to MJ, MJ to Kobe, Kobe to this new crop of players. I don't want to say he passed it to Lebron, because Lebron is a different type of player, but he is an athletic wing player drafted out of high school who can score using a phenomenal combination of skill and athleticism, so he is a successor in that respect.

This. There have only a select few in the modern era who have influenced an entire generation. Not saying that guys like Karl Malone or Magic didn't influence players... but not nearly on the same level as Dr. J, Mamba, or MJ. I think KD will be more influential than LBJ; kids are influenced by style, attitude and scoring more than efficiency.

koreancabbage
08-25-2014, 11:24 PM
Just shows how flawed those statistical theories are. Wade isn't very close to Kobe as a player.

yet it shows Jordan as the best or one of the best in this stat as well, so i don't know how 'flawed' a stat can be when it truly does support everyone's argument that Jordan is the best. just another perspective on it.

mightybosstone
08-26-2014, 12:40 AM
I think Kobe's body has shown that he doesn't have much longer. Its failed him the last couple of years. His heart is obviously still in it I jut don't think his body will hold up.
It wasn't that long ago that people were saying the same thing about Dirk. Few people saw last season coming prior to the start of the year. And most assume he was on his way out. Don't doubt great players who have been relatively healthy their entire careers because of one or two injury plagued seasons.


Dirk on the other hand is a jump shooter and has been relatively healthy late in his career.
"Healthy" in sports is just relative to the timing and sample size you're discussing. He was healthy last year, but he had more than his fair share of injuries the previous season. Also he's seen his minutes decline pretty regularly the last 3-4 seasons.


Barring some kind of freak injury I think Dirk will end up passing Kobe at the very end of his career. Kobe may end up being the final person he passes on the all time scoring list. Even if he doesn't it will be fun watching him get close. Watching him start off as that gangly awkward looking 7 foot blond kid with earrings and a chili bowl haircut to one of the all time great scorers in NBA history is amazing.
He's been a fun player to watch and certainly a guy I rank among my top 20 all-time. But if I'm looking at the situation objectively, I still think it's highly unlikely that Dirk passes Kobe on the all-time points list. As I said before, though, only time will tell.

Mr.B
08-26-2014, 01:13 AM
This. There have only a select few in the modern era who have influenced an entire generation. Not saying that guys like Karl Malone or Magic didn't influence players... but not nearly on the same level as Dr. J, Mamba, or MJ. I think KD will be more influential than LBJ; kids are influenced by style, attitude and scoring more than efficiency.
First I agree Kobe is this generations Dr J or Magic but don't overlook Karl Malone's influence. He had a defensive move where he would swing his arm down hard and swipe at the ball that tons of players use today. He actually separated Dirks shoulder early in his career and Dirk now uses it all the time. He was also very good at shooting that backboard bank shot that Duncan has mastered.

Kobe has a very smooth game that I haven't really seen anyone be able to duplicate yet. Wade is probably the closest but they have different body types so most of the time he looks different doing the same things Kobe does.

It will be interesting to see how Labron's game evolves with losing all that weight. I think he is about to enter a stage in his career where he will develop a signature move.

bucketss
08-26-2014, 01:46 AM
he also probably missed the most amount of shots

ThuglifeJ
08-26-2014, 05:09 AM
Harden will pass him all said and done..that is if he's able to sacrifice his admirable defense a bit to focus more on that. I believe Dwight should be scratching the all time blocks/rebounds surface soon too, if not he deserves it. Real question is which one of those two gets MVP next season??
#blessed to have their presence among us

ThuglifeJ
08-26-2014, 05:10 AM
he also probably missed the most amount of shots

He actually has. Now go away hater

Goose17
08-26-2014, 08:04 AM
I remember reading something about Kobe being 14 of 50 for game winning shots (25%) while Allen with a similar number of attempts shot about 38% and Carter with a similar amount of shots made something like 32%, people remember the makes but not the misses with Kobe.

This feels like the same thing, he's scored more but what is the % like? I mean it's impressive regardless but a little less impressive if the % is below average compared to the other top 5 or whatever.

Goose17
08-26-2014, 08:04 AM
I just realised that math doesn't work, he must have been 14 for 55ish or something. Can't be bothered looking it up.

mightybosstone
08-26-2014, 08:34 AM
Harden will pass him all said and done..that is if he's able to sacrifice his admirable defense a bit to focus more on that. I believe Dwight should be scratching the all time blocks/rebounds surface soon too, if not he deserves it.

This is your most pathetic, obvious attempt to troll Rockets fans yet. Can't you leave one thread alone without using it as an opportunity to trash Houston? Regardless, I'll go ahead and respond anyway.

Harden has probably zero chance of passing Kobe. Harden may be insanely efficient, but he's not the volume scorer that Kobe was in his career. Kobe scored 27+ PPG nine times in his career. Harden has yet to do it once. Kobe has scored 2,000+ points in a season seven times in his career. Harden has only done it one time. Then you have to factor in the fact that Kobe came into the league two years younger than Harden. It's basically impossible, and I'm guessing you knew that when you attempted to troll Rockets fans (again).

As for Dwight, you're actually right about him starting to crack some all-time lists. He's already 28th in career blocks and is likely to pass guys like McHale, Hayes and Moses in the next two seasons. He's got a pretty damn good chance to finish in the top 10. He's only 40th in career rebounds, but he's moving up that list fast and could feasibly jump another 10 spots this season. If he plays another 5-7 years, I could see him cracking the top 10 on that list as well.


Real question is which one of those two gets MVP next season??
#blessed to have their presence among us
Neither guy will win the MVP, but I assure you that a Rockets player will finish much, much higher in MVP voting than any Raptors players will. ;)

IndyRealist
08-26-2014, 09:07 AM
People argue that he's never been the best player in any year, or that he had help, or whatever, but it's the consistent excellence over two decades that makes him great. Most players trail off well before their 18th year in the league.

Heatcheck
08-26-2014, 09:32 AM
no other player has played as many games as kobe. or missed as many shots, or token as many shots by age 36either.

Heatcheck
08-26-2014, 09:34 AM
.

jaydubb
08-26-2014, 10:10 AM
I remember reading something about Kobe being 14 of 50 for game winning shots (25%) while Allen with a similar number of attempts shot about 38% and Carter with a similar amount of shots made something like 32%, people remember the makes but not the misses with Kobe.

This feels like the same thing, he's scored more but what is the % like? I mean it's impressive regardless but a little less impressive if the % is below average compared to the other top 5 or whatever.
Kobe has the most game winning shots in NBA history, he also has the most misses at the end of games.. Why? Because he was never afraid to take that shot, and always confident he could make it. Guess whos 2nd? Michael Jordan. Its just what happens, you take more shots, your going to miss more shots.

mightybosstone
08-26-2014, 10:47 AM
Here's a pretty good article from last year debunking the whole "Kobe is way more clutch than Lebron" myth:

http://thesportsquotient.com/featured/2013/10/25/jordan-vs-lebron-vs-kobe-whos-most-clutch-in-the-playoffs

I actually think this guy pulled from other articles I'd read in the past, but it's nice that he puts all the numbers together in one place so you get a better overview. For those who don't feel like reading, here are some numbers for you.

Potential game-tying or go-ahead shots in final 24 seconds of a postseason game
Jordan: 9-18 (50%)
Lebron: 7-17 (41.1%)
Kobe: 7-28 (25%)

Potential game-tying or go-ahead shots in final 10 seconds of a postseason game
Jordan: 7-15 (47%)
Lebron: 6-14 (43%)
Kobe: 5-22 (23%)

Game-tying or go-ahead shots in final 10 seconds of a postseason game since 2003-04
Lebron: 7-16
Kobe: 5-17
Durant: 5-12
Dirk: 5-12

Game 7s
Lebron: 34/8.1/3.5 on 46.5% shooting
Jordan: 33.3/7.7/7 on 45.7% shooting
Kobe: 22.2/8/5 on 38.9% shooting

Elimination games
Lebron: 31.5/10/6.5 on 46% shooting
Jordan: 31.3/7.9/7 on 44.5% shooting
Kobe: 21.5/5.8/3.5 on 41.4% shooting

I'm not trying to diminish Kobe's accomplishments and I'll admit this post is a bit off topic, but I get so annoyed when I hear people talk about how clutch Kobe is and how un-clutch Lebron is. These numbers prove pretty clearly that Kobe is not more clutch than Lebron in any way, shape or form.

THE MTL
08-26-2014, 11:47 AM
He came out of high school. Its more important to look at the games played.

Chronz
08-26-2014, 11:59 AM
Kobe has the most game winning shots in NBA history, he also has the most misses at the end of games.. Why? Because he was never afraid to take that shot, and always confident he could make it. Guess whos 2nd? Michael Jordan. Its just what happens, you take more shots, your going to miss more shots.
Yeah but MJ didn't need to take that many to get 2nd place. Why? Efficiency.....

Goose17
08-26-2014, 12:02 PM
Kobe has the most game winning shots in NBA history, he also has the most misses at the end of games.. Why? Because he was never afraid to take that shot, and always confident he could make it. Guess whos 2nd? Michael Jordan. Its just what happens, you take more shots, your going to miss more shots.

I'm sorry but I don't agree with that premise at all. Iverson was confident he could make any shot but he's labelled a "chucker" (and rightly so), why is Kobe exempt from this criticism?

Missing a lot of shots isn't a good thing, no matter how you slice it. "Don't worry coach, I believed I could make it".

Seriously?


I mean the argument could be made that the ones he made are the ones that mattered most but I'm pretty sure if you were to dig deep enough even that theory would be proven false.

monzternipz12
08-26-2014, 12:18 PM
Its more impressive to be 40 years old and put up 40 points. We'll see if Kobe can last that long.

jaydubb
08-26-2014, 12:21 PM
I'm sorry but I don't agree with that premise at all. Iverson was confident he could make any shot but he's labelled a "chucker" (and rightly so), why is Kobe exempt from this criticism?

Missing a lot of shots isn't a good thing, no matter how you slice it. "Don't worry coach, I believed I could make it".

Seriously?


I mean the argument could be made that the ones he made are the ones that mattered most but I'm pretty sure if you were to dig deep enough even that theory would be proven false.

When did I ever say Kobe wasn't a chucker and when did I ever say missing shots was a good thing???

I've noticed something about you, you like to twist people's words a lot to give you some sort of satisfaction that your point is the only one that matters. If that's what you like then go for it man.

jaydubb
08-26-2014, 12:21 PM
Yeah but MJ didn't need to take that many to get 2nd place. Why? Efficiency.....

I agree

JasonJohnHorn
08-26-2014, 12:31 PM
he also probably missed the most amount of shots

Yes, he does. More than any player!

http://www.lakersnation.com/lakers-news-kobe-sets-nba-record-for-most-career-misses/2013/01/10/

John Havlicek had the record, Kobe broke it in 2013. It took Hondo until the age of 37 to set that record where it was, and Kobe had that number eclipsed before he even turned 35.

Goose17
08-26-2014, 12:34 PM
When did I ever say Kobe wasn't a chucker and when did I ever say missing shots was a good thing???

I've noticed something about you, you like to twist people's words a lot to give you some sort of satisfaction that your point is the only one that matters. If that's what you like then go for it man.

So what are you saying? Because he believed he could make those shots that makes it okay? I don't understand what point your post was making.

I never twist anyones words, apologies if that's how you feel but if you infer something absurd that's your fault for wording it poorly. Clarify and move on. No need to be so testy about it.

jaydubb
08-26-2014, 12:51 PM
So what are you saying? Because he believed he could make those shots that makes it okay? I don't understand what point your post was making.

I never twist anyones words, apologies if that's how you feel but if you infer something absurd that's your fault for wording it poorly. Clarify and move on. No need to be so testy about it.

I clearly stated it in my original post.. The more shots you take, the more shots that a player is bound to miss no matter how good you are.. It's not good or bad, it just happens it's part of the game. Hey Michael Jordan is the greatest player ever and believe it or not, he's missed shots :up:

Kobe has taken the most shots ever thus resulting in the most makes and misses.. Simple math..

I'm not really arguing how good or bad he is as you seem to think, I'm just trying to let you know what 2+2-1=

GREATNESS ONE
08-26-2014, 12:57 PM
I remember reading something about Kobe being 14 of 50 for game winning shots (25%) while Allen with a similar number of attempts shot about 38% and Carter with a similar amount of shots made something like 32%, people remember the makes but not the misses with Kobe.

This feels like the same thing, he's scored more but what is the % like? I mean it's impressive regardless but a little less impressive if the % is below average compared to the other top 5 or whatever.

Clearly someone rarely watched Lakers games thru ought the years.


I won't go any further than this but #'s are amusing without watching the games.

Vinylman
08-26-2014, 12:58 PM
Just shows how flawed those statistical theories are. Wade isn't very close to Kobe as a player.

no consideration is ever given that kobe has ALWAYS drawn the #1 wing defender on the opposite team while Wade has basically had a cake walk playing next to LeBron the last 4 years...

I am sure that fact has zero impact on their numbers

PSD ... where stupid happens

LakersEaglesLA
08-26-2014, 12:59 PM
To people who Never played basketball on a high level (you have to be GREAT to create those many shots)

Chronz
08-26-2014, 01:00 PM
I agree

Pretty easy to agree with facts.. Nothing important about being first place in these sort of things. Its not like your more clutch than someone else if you hit more game winners, being clutch is about more than just the final shot.

mightybosstone
08-26-2014, 01:02 PM
To people who Never played basketball on a high level (you have to be GREAT to create those many shots)

Just because you starred on your junior college team or got that one start for a Division I team because the real starter missed the game with the flu does not give you the right to talk down to people who have opinions on the NBA. You did not play in the NBA. You were not a superstar in the NBA. And you have never taken a game-winning or game-tying shot in the NBA. So your opinion or perspective on this is no more relevant than anybody else's.

GREATNESS ONE
08-26-2014, 01:02 PM
Yeah but MJ didn't need to take that many to get 2nd place. Why? Efficiency.....

:laugh2: man. Some of you guys make me feel old. It was pretty obvious why MJ was so efficient but I guess you only see that when watching the games live.

I won't get further into this and I'm not arguing Kobe was more efficient but I still find it amusing.

Chronz
08-26-2014, 01:03 PM
no consideration is ever given that kobe has ALWAYS drawn the #1 wing defender on the opposite team while Wade has basically had a cake walk playing next to LeBron the last 4 years...

I am sure that fact has zero impact on their numbers

PSD ... where stupid happens

lol ... wat?

GREATNESS ONE
08-26-2014, 01:03 PM
Just because you starred on your junior college team or got that one start for a Division I team because the real starter missed the game with the flu does not give you the right to talk down to people who have opinions on the NBA. You did not play in the NBA. You were not a superstar in the NBA. And you have never taken a game-winning or game-tying shot in the NBA. So your opinion or perspective on this is no more relevant than anybody else's.

Talk down to people? :laugh2:

Hypocrisy at it's best :)

But it's all good, you keep doing you and I'll keep doing ONE.

mightybosstone
08-26-2014, 01:05 PM
Clearly someone rarely watched Lakers games thru ought the years.
I won't go any further than this but #'s are amusing without watching the games.


:laugh2: man. Some of you guys make me feel old. It was pretty obvious why MJ was so efficient but I guess you only see that when watching the games live.

I won't get further into this and I'm not arguing Kobe was more efficient but I still find it amusing.

Okay, you've got our attention. Please enlighten us oh wise one and grace us with the brilliance of your basketball knowledge. :eyebrow:

Chronz
08-26-2014, 01:06 PM
:laugh2: man. Some of you guys make me feel old. It was pretty obvious why MJ was so efficient but I guess you only see that when watching the games live.

I won't get further into this and I'm not arguing Kobe was more efficient but I still find it amusing.

You're not arguing anything, and yes, you are very amusing.

mightybosstone
08-26-2014, 01:07 PM
Talk down to people? :laugh2:

Hypocrisy at it's best :)
I don't talk down to people. I have an argument, and I make that argument with whatever facts and numbers I can find. If I diminish someone else's argument, that's not me trying to talk down to someone. That's me trying to make my point and prove the other person wrong. There's a difference between believe that you're superior and believing that you're right.


But it's all good, you keep doing you and I'll keep doing ONE.
I have no idea what this means. Is this something that all the cool kids are saying nowadays?

Goose17
08-26-2014, 01:08 PM
To people who Never played basketball on a high level (you have to be GREAT to create those many shots)

Debatable. I mean you have to be good but "great"? By what standard? NBA standard or just in general? Big shot bob wasn't a "great" player in the way that Kobe is but he was definitely more clutch (although Bob was a great player in the grand scheme of things)

Are you assuming Kobe created all of those shots in some sort of one on one play? That he wasn't rolling from an off ball screen, spotting up and catching the inbound pass?

I would say your team needs to be great to help you create that many opportunities, there's only so much you can do one on one.

Vinylman
08-26-2014, 01:09 PM
Yes, he does. More than any player!

http://www.lakersnation.com/lakers-news-kobe-sets-nba-record-for-most-career-misses/2013/01/10/

John Havlicek had the record, Kobe broke it in 2013. It took Hondo until the age of 37 to set that record where it was, and Kobe had that number eclipsed before he even turned 35.

Age is a pretty relevant factor with that stat... I mean the fact that havlicek came into the league 4 years older than kobe wouldn't have anything to do with that

PSD... the land of irrelevant statistics

GREATNESS ONE
08-26-2014, 01:13 PM
I don't talk down to people. I have an argument, and I make that argument with whatever facts and numbers I can find. If I diminish someone else's argument, that's not me trying to talk down to someone. That's me trying to make my point and prove the other person wrong. There's a difference between believe that you're superior and believing that you're right.


I have no idea what this means. Is this something that all the cool kids are saying nowadays?

Yea whatever makes you feel better is cool with me. Calling a grown man a "kid" is definitely not talking down to people. ✌️

JasonJohnHorn
08-26-2014, 01:14 PM
Age is a pretty relevant factor with that stat... I mean the fact that havlicek came into the league 4 years older than kobe wouldn't have anything to do with that

PSD... the land of irrelevant statistics

That's my point. The thread itself is an irrelevant stat.

As I said, K. Malone and KAJ got to the same number of points on fewer shots in less seasons. So who cares that Kobe reached the point total at a younger age. That's only because he got into the league at 18 where Jabbar and Malone played in college.


As to the missed FGs. Hondo missed that many shots in 16 seasons, Kobe missed it in 17 seasons. But Hondo came in as a starter and Kobe came in off the bench, so Kobe was getting less shots his first couple of seasons.

It took Hono 1270 games to miss that many shot. Kobe hasn't even played 1270, so it's not like you "he started earlier' argument holds any water, because he miss more shots in less game.

Of course, Kobe has a higher FG%.

GREATNESS ONE
08-26-2014, 01:19 PM
You're not arguing anything, and yes, you are very amusing.

Why even argue? We both have our opinions and I can respect that, you clearly still have trouble with respecting people but it's all good. Enjoy your "high horse".

I've seen a lot of basketball live growing up and it's clearly obvious why some of the numbers favor some players. It's all good though, I'll just keep doing me and watch some of
you guys just belittle people year after year.

Goose17
08-26-2014, 01:20 PM
Yea whatever makes you feel better is cool with me. Calling a grown man a "kid" is definitely not talking down to people. ✌️

Seriously though what does "But it's all good, you keep doing you and I'll keep doing ONE."

Shouldn't it be "I'll keep doing me"... were you referring to your screen name?

I don't care for your argument I'm just intrigued by that comment. Some sort of slang I haven't heard or just referring to your user name?

GREATNESS ONE
08-26-2014, 01:21 PM
Age is a pretty relevant factor with that stat... I mean the fact that havlicek came into the league 4 years older than kobe wouldn't have anything to do with that

PSD... the land of irrelevant statistics

:laugh2: much love V-Man.

Enjoy your day brother.

I'm off this for now.

GREATNESS ONE
08-26-2014, 01:22 PM
Seriously though what does "But it's all good, you keep doing you and I'll keep doing ONE."

Shouldn't it be "I'll keep doing me"... were you referring to your screen name?

I don't care for your argument I'm just intrigued by that comment. Some sort of slang I haven't heard or just referring to your user name?

Lol "screen name"

Take care dude and have a good day. :)

mightybosstone
08-26-2014, 01:23 PM
Yea whatever makes you feel better is cool with me. Calling a grown man a "kid" is definitely not talking down to people. ✌️

If you're referring to my "cool kids" question, that wasn't meant as a derogatory term. Have you never heard the phrase "what the cool kids are doing" before? It's just a figure of speech. But you used the phrase "you keep doing you and I'll keep doing ONE." I have no earthly idea what that means, so I assumed it was some new phrase that people were using that I'd never heard before.

So, what is that supposed to mean exactly?

jaydubb
08-26-2014, 01:23 PM
Debatable. I mean you have to be good but "great"? By what standard? NBA standard or just in general? Big shot bob wasn't a "great" player in the way that Kobe is but he was definitely more clutch.

Are you assuming Kobe created all of those shots in some sort of one on one play? That he wasn't rolling from an off ball screen, spotting up and catching the inbound pass?

I would say your team needs to be great to help you create that many opportunities, there's only so much you can do one on one.
Your saying Robert horry is more clutch then Kobe? OK Robert horry is a clutch mofo, no getting around it.. But have you even seen any of his game winners??? I'm getting the feeling like your more about stats then actually watching basketball..

You should YouTube Robert horry game winning shots then YouTube Kobe game winning shots.. Do you notice a difference?? Maybe you won't because you are biased but I'll tell you what I see.. Robert horry is wide open on most of his shots and a few of them were late contested but none of them were when he was being guarded.. It would be stupid for the team to focus their defense on horry and leave open alajuwan Kobe Shaq Tim Duncan ginobli and tony parker..

Now watch kobe's shots, almost all of them he was being guarded closely. Sometimes he had 2 guys on him.. Why? Because the NBA knows how clutch the guy is.. They respect him even if fans like you don't, real basketball minds do.

You give Kobe the same shots that Robert horry got, I bet he makes all of them or at the very least most of them.. can you say the same for Robert horry if he was given all of the looks Kobe got?

mightybosstone
08-26-2014, 01:28 PM
Why even argue? We both have our opinions and I can respect that, you clearly still have trouble with respecting people but it's all good. Enjoy your "high horse".

I've seen a lot of basketball live growing up and it's clearly obvious why some of the numbers favor some players. It's all good though, I'll just keep doing me and watch some of
you guys just belittle people year after year.

You're kind of contradicting yourself. You talked down to everybody by suggesting that anyone who actually watched Jordan play would know why he was so efficient. But instead of actually having a civil conversation about it and explaining that point, you just avoid the subject entirely and sit atop your pedestal.

As for your "why argue when we both have opinions" point, I don't get that at all. Why in the hell do you have 16,000 posts on an Internet sports forum if not to talk sports and debate sports topics? Whey even post at all in the first place if you aren't actually going to make a point about basketball in the first place? You just came in here, dropped a condescending statement with no evidence to back it up, laughed at everybody and then plan to walk away.

I gotta say, man. This kind of makes you look like a giant tool. :shrug:

Vinylman
08-26-2014, 01:40 PM
That's my point. The thread itself is an irrelevant stat.

As I said, K. Malone and KAJ got to the same number of points on fewer shots in less seasons. So who cares that Kobe reached the point total at a younger age. That's only because he got into the league at 18 where Jabbar and Malone played in college.


As to the missed FGs. Hondo missed that many shots in 16 seasons, Kobe missed it in 17 seasons. But Hondo came in as a starter and Kobe came in off the bench, so Kobe was getting less shots his first couple of seasons.

It took Hono 1270 games to miss that many shot. Kobe hasn't even played 1270, so it's not like you "he started earlier' argument holds any water, because he miss more shots in less game.

Of course, Kobe has a higher FG%.

Age is irrelevant to discussion especially when you consider this is a regular season / playoff combination of games... when kobe passed havlicek he was still behind MJ and elvin hayes in regular game misses...

PSD is the land of arbitrary statistics that have no meaning including the premise of this thread.

Vinylman
08-26-2014, 01:41 PM
lol ... wat?

what are you confused about?

Goose17
08-26-2014, 01:41 PM
Your saying Robert horry is more clutch then Kobe? OK Robert horry is a clutch mofo, no getting around it.. But have you even seen any of his game winners??? I'm getting the feeling like your more about stats then actually watching basketball..

You should YouTube Robert horry game winning shots then YouTube Kobe game winning shots.. Do you notice a difference?? Maybe you won't because you are biased but I'll tell you what I see.. Robert horry is wide open on most of his shots and a few of them were late contested but none of them were when he was being guarded.. It would be stupid for the team to focus their defense on horry and leave open alajuwan Kobe Shaq Tim Duncan ginobli and tony parker..

Now watch kobe's shots, almost all of them he was being guarded closely. Sometimes he had 2 guys on him.. Why? Because the NBA knows how clutch the guy is.. They respect him even if fans like you don't, real basketball minds do.

You give Kobe the same shots that Robert horry got, I bet he makes all of them or at the very least most of them.. can you say the same for Robert horry if he was given all of the looks Kobe got?

All fair points, so what about Ray Allen? Vince Carter? Carmelo Anthony? They both made a higher % of game winners.

And Kobe wasn't heavily guarded for EVERY clutch shot. He used screens and that triangle offense helped him get open a lot. There was always someone closing in on him but it's not like he was shooting over a triple team every night or something.

And if he was being double teamed he should have passed to the open man instead of throwing up a shot and bricking it like he did so often... no?

I guess not, because he believed he could make it.

Heatcheck
08-26-2014, 01:50 PM
no consideration is ever given that kobe has ALWAYS drawn the #1 wing defender on the opposite team while Wade has basically had a cake walk playing next to LeBron the last 4 years...

I am sure that fact has zero impact on their numbers

PSD ... where stupid happens

yeah its not like wade scored more on similar fg% when he was alone than when he was with LeBron.

Vinylman
08-26-2014, 02:03 PM
yeah its not like wade scored more on similar fg% when he was alone.

I guess you just don't understand the concept of Dwade being a second option the last 4 years impacting his numbers in a positive way... not surprised

not to mention that it is irrelevant to compare players CAREER statistics when one player is significantly older than the other one...

Chronz
08-26-2014, 02:09 PM
Why even argue? We both have our opinions and I can respect that, you clearly still have trouble with respecting people but it's all good.
Says the man who dismisses others with no retort of his own. Im just doing exactly what YOU'VE been doing. Casually dismissing your posts.


Enjoy your "high horse".
Enjoy yours as well.


I've seen a lot of basketball live growing up and it's clearly obvious why some of the numbers favor some players. It's all good though, I'll just keep doing me and watch some of
you guys just belittle people year after year.
Keep thinking ur the only one who watches basketball and maybe some day you will wake up and realize what a hypocrite you've been.

Play the woe is me card on someone else, ONE

Chronz
08-26-2014, 02:11 PM
what are you confused about?

The double standards. Explain the point being made here

Heatcheck
08-26-2014, 02:13 PM
I guess you just don't understand the concept of Dwade being a second option the last 4 years impacting his numbers in a positive way... not surprised

not to mention that it is irrelevant to compare players CAREER statistics when one player is significantly older than the other one...

Buddy, you act like he wasn't scoring more at and almost 50% before LeBron got there. the year he dropped 30 a game, he did it at 49%.

Chronz
08-26-2014, 02:14 PM
If you're referring to my "cool kids" question, that wasn't meant as a derogatory term. Have you never heard the phrase "what the cool kids are doing" before? It's just a figure of speech. But you used the phrase "you keep doing you and I'll keep doing ONE." I have no earthly idea what that means, so I assumed it was some new phrase that people were using that I'd never heard before.

So, what is that supposed to mean exactly?

Its like saying peace. Instead of saying peace out.

1 luv = 1 .

At least its a form of respect

jaydubb
08-26-2014, 02:15 PM
All fair points, so what about Ray Allen? Vince Carter? Carmelo Anthony? They both made a higher % of game winners.

And Kobe wasn't heavily guarded for EVERY clutch shot. He used screens and that triangle offense helped him get open a lot. There was always someone closing in on him but it's not like he was shooting over a triple team every night or something.

And if he was being double teamed he should have passed to the open man instead of throwing up a shot and bricking it like he did so often... no?

I guess not, because he believed he could make it.

I agree that he should have passed up a lot of shots he took, I'm not debating that.. Yes if he's double teamed he should kick it out to the open man. This is actually what I believe separates mj and Kobe with the game on the line. He's gotten better at this over the years, but still needs to improve IMO. Yes it lowers his fg% but he's still clutch

albertajaysfan
08-26-2014, 02:17 PM
4th all time in FGAs, 4th in total points. sounds about right. by your math he'd have to have been averaging 31 points a game since day one in the NBA as an 18 year old to pass Kareem.

I didn't do any math in my post so not sure what the reference is related too. I wasn't saying he should have passed Kareem by now. Just saying it isn't such a huge accomplishment in comparison to the other greats. He is a great player and has had a fantastic career but I think the number of games and seasons he has played is more relevant then his age.

PhillyFaninLA
08-26-2014, 02:17 PM
We should track how many games played not age.....he came out at 18 not 23, most guys back in the day went to multiple years of college and many graduated

LakersEaglesLA
08-26-2014, 02:50 PM
Just because you starred on your junior college team or got that one start for a Division I team because the real starter missed the game with the flu does not give you the right to talk down to people who have opinions on the NBA. You did not play in the NBA. You were not a superstar in the NBA. And you have never taken a game-winning or game-tying shot in the NBA. So your opinion or perspective on this is no more relevant than anybody else's.

Don't get insecure because you don't understand the real game that happens on the court and not on the computer

Goose17
08-26-2014, 02:55 PM
Don't get insecure because you don't understand the real game that happens on the court and not on the computer

Is that a serious comment?

Goose17
08-26-2014, 02:56 PM
I agree that he should have passed up a lot of shots he took, I'm not debating that.. Yes if he's double teamed he should kick it out to the open man. This is actually what I believe separates mj and Kobe with the game on the line. He's gotten better at this over the years, but still needs to improve IMO. Yes it lowers his fg% but he's still clutch

Oh he's clutch. Just not as clutch as some make out.

Bruno
08-26-2014, 02:58 PM
you guys are so salty on kobe its childish. appreciate an all time great while he's still around and stop turning a thread celebrating his scoring into an opportunity to say why he's not as good as player B.

Goose17
08-26-2014, 03:02 PM
you guys are so salty on kobe its childish. appreciate an all time great while he's still around and stop turning a thread celebrating his scoring into an opportunity to say why he's not as good as player B.

It's more about the actual Kobe Bryant not being as good as this mythical Kobe Bryant people have fabricated in their minds.

Heatcheck
08-26-2014, 03:02 PM
you guys are so salty on kobe its childish. appreciate an all time great while he's still around and stop turning a thread celebrating his scoring into an opportunity to say why he's not as good as player B.

The thread is made for discussion, and the key here is that hes scored MORE than any other player by age 36, comparisons are expected. or should we all just ride his dick for the whole thread.

Vinylman
08-26-2014, 03:12 PM
The double standards. Explain the point being made here

what double standard? I wasn't commenting on the premise of the thread which is as idiotic as the post I responded to...

stats without context are irrelevant

Chronz
08-26-2014, 03:47 PM
what double standard? I wasn't commenting on the premise of the thread which is as idiotic as the post I responded to...

stats without context are irrelevant
Yes, it has nothing to do with this thread. We agree.

Still not seeing the point, what ever context you think you are providing is what Im lost on. What kind of statistical claims are you making again?

Its not a double standard until I make sure I understand your point. But I suspect there is some of that going on

Bruno
08-26-2014, 03:54 PM
The thread is made for discussion, and the key here is that hes scored MORE than any other player by age 36, comparisons are expected. or should we all just ride his dick for the whole thread.

yet you've found a way to mention Wade in a thread discussing cumulative points by age 36. not only is Wade not 36, but he's not in the ballpark to be mentioned in the discussion. you can't project that he'll ever be in the discussion, considering the fact that Wades 72nd on the all-time scoring list, right in-between Jason Kidd and Jason Terry. so it's a fruitless name drop; just an opportunity for you to mention Wade efficiency in comparison to Kobe.

you've made it about yourself and your team allegiances, not about the thread topic.

WadeKobe
08-26-2014, 03:55 PM
His impressive career is top 5 all time

Lol. :laugh2:

I love you guys.

Bruno
08-26-2014, 03:58 PM
It's more about the actual Kobe Bryant not being as good as this mythical Kobe Bryant people have fabricated in their minds.

actually it's not. it's about comparing the greatest scorers in league history and the cumulative points they put up by age 36. players who are on pace to be in the discussion in the future (like LeBron and Durant) are more than fair game to discuss. any discussion on efficiency or 'clutches' is just a childish groin kick by people who aren't interested in the thread topic (cumulative numbers and longevity), but more interested in spreading mud.

Kobe Bryant has a higher career TS% than Wilt Chamberlain, Hakeem Olajuwon and Tim Duncan. the rumors of his poor efficiency are agenda driven and greatly exaggerated.

Goose17
08-26-2014, 04:07 PM
actually it's not. it's about comparing the greatest scorers in league history and the cumulative points they put up by age 36. players who are on pace to be in the discussion in the future (like LeBron and Durant) are more than fair game to discuss. any discussion on efficiency or 'clutches' is just a childish groin kick by people who aren't interested in the thread topic (cumulative numbers and longevity), but more interested in spreading mud.

Kobe Bryant has a higher career TS% than Wilt Chamberlain, Hakeem Olajuwon and Tim Duncan. the rumors of his poor efficiency are agenda driven and greatly exaggerated.

I sincerely disagree.

Vinylman
08-26-2014, 05:51 PM
Yes, it has nothing to do with this thread. We agree.

Still not seeing the point, what ever context you think you are providing is what Im lost on. What kind of statistical claims are you making again?

Its not a double standard until I make sure I understand your point. But I suspect there is some of that going on

minimal was throwing out career PER and WS numbers (AVERAGES). Those numbers are irrelevant from a comparison standpoint when you have players that are at different points in their career... Additionally, i pointed out that those numbers don't factor in that Wade's numbers the last 4 years have been enhanced by being the #2 wing player on the Heat which means he NEVER draws the other teams best defender unlike Kobe who has NEVER had a significant wing player alongside him.

Watch the drop off in Wade's numbers this year. He is headed for the cliff and would have already been there if he hadn't of had Lebron which enabled the Heat to pick and choose when he played....

Wade playing a full schedule is going to be hilarious

WadeKobe
08-26-2014, 06:15 PM
actually it's not. it's about comparing the greatest scorers in league history and the cumulative points they put up by age 36. players who are on pace to be in the discussion in the future (like LeBron and Durant) are more than fair game to discuss. any discussion on efficiency or 'clutches' is just a childish groin kick by people who aren't interested in the thread topic (cumulative numbers and longevity), but more interested in spreading mud.

Kobe Bryant has a higher career TS% than Wilt Chamberlain, Hakeem Olajuwon and Tim Duncan. the rumors of his poor efficiency are agenda driven and greatly exaggerated.

Eh. We should not use "greatest scorers" to talk about Kobe. This aspect of Kobe's game (scoring) is without a doubt the most overrated aside from the phantom "clutch" he has somewhere (haven't found it yet).

http://wagesofwins.com/2012/12/06/how-kobes-all-time-record-is-average/
http://wagesofwins.com/2012/12/19/another-look-at-the-nbas-all-time-scorers/

JasonJohnHorn
08-26-2014, 06:31 PM
Age is irrelevant to discussion especially when you consider this is a regular season / playoff combination of games... when kobe passed havlicek he was still behind MJ and elvin hayes in regular game misses...

PSD is the land of arbitrary statistics that have no meaning including the premise of this thread.

"Age is irrelevant" in a conversation about Kobe being the youngest to score a certain amount of points? I think YOU think you are in a different thread.

Look. I've bumped into you before on here, and you frequently seem like a troll and a person who enjoys being an @$$#ole. I'm not interested on wasting my time talking to you. I didn't make this thread. I responded to it. If you have an issue with a conversation about reaching a certain plateau by a certain age, talk to the OP.

If you bothered reading my posts in this thread, you would know that my whole point is the fact that the age thing is irrelevant. Kareem wasn't even allowed to enter out of highshcool. Had it been commonplace for that to happen in the NBA at the time, he would have had four more years of scoring, like Kobe.

And LBJ, who like Kobe was able to enter out of highschool, is on a faster pace than Kobe to reach that same plateau.

I actually AGREE that ageis arbitrary, which is the point I was making, only you CLEARLY have some sort of antagonistic attitude where you have to pick arguments with people even when they agree with you.


Karl Malone and Kareem both had scored more points, in less season needed fewer FG attempt to get to the point total Kobe got to. They started later, so they were slightly older.

If you compare Kobe to guys coming out of highschool... barring injury LBJ is going to break any marks Kobe set.

A Kobe fan made a thread about a statistical anomaly. You think age is arbitrary. I think age is arbitrary. You pick a fight with me and then blame me because other people on PSD use arbitrary stats.

Congrats. You wasted your time and mine.

Cheers

P.S. My vinyl collection is better than yours.

naps
08-26-2014, 06:33 PM
So for everyone who played 1245 games or more, Kobe scored most points exactly in 1245 games in NBA history? If true then very impressive. If not then it's one of those random threads Kobe fans create for attention. Age is nothing since players come into the league at different ages.

KnickNyKnick
08-26-2014, 09:04 PM
MJ will always be looked at as the better scorer... kobe just just kept playing

still a great accomplishment, Kobe is one the top 10 basketball players who ever lived forget stats and accomplishments for once, im talking an array of moves that is only matched by a few in history

and he has the tim duncan, Kareem longevity accomplishment


i agree. i think this is what makes the top of the elite list, someone who can get it done at the front and back end of his career.

cmellofan15
08-26-2014, 09:11 PM
Here's a pretty good article from last year debunking the whole "Kobe is way more clutch than Lebron" myth:

http://thesportsquotient.com/featured/2013/10/25/jordan-vs-lebron-vs-kobe-whos-most-clutch-in-the-playoffs

I actually think this guy pulled from other articles I'd read in the past, but it's nice that he puts all the numbers together in one place so you get a better overview. For those who don't feel like reading, here are some numbers for you.

Potential game-tying or go-ahead shots in final 24 seconds of a postseason game
Jordan: 9-18 (50%)
Lebron: 7-17 (41.1%)
Kobe: 7-28 (25%)

Potential game-tying or go-ahead shots in final 10 seconds of a postseason game
Jordan: 7-15 (47%)
Lebron: 6-14 (43%)
Kobe: 5-22 (23%)

Game-tying or go-ahead shots in final 10 seconds of a postseason game since 2003-04
Lebron: 7-16
Kobe: 5-17
Durant: 5-12
Dirk: 5-12

Game 7s
Lebron: 34/8.1/3.5 on 46.5% shooting
Jordan: 33.3/7.7/7 on 45.7% shooting
Kobe: 22.2/8/5 on 38.9% shooting

Elimination games
Lebron: 31.5/10/6.5 on 46% shooting
Jordan: 31.3/7.9/7 on 44.5% shooting
Kobe: 21.5/5.8/3.5 on 41.4% shooting

I'm not trying to diminish Kobe's accomplishments and I'll admit this post is a bit off topic, but I get so annoyed when I hear people talk about how clutch Kobe is and how un-clutch Lebron is. These numbers prove pretty clearly that Kobe is not more clutch than Lebron in any way, shape or form.

i'm just gonna quote this so it can be passed along...

basketfan4life
08-27-2014, 03:01 AM
Eh. We should not use "greatest scorers" to talk about Kobe. This aspect of Kobe's game (scoring) is without a doubt the most overrated aside from the phantom "clutch" he has somewhere (haven't found it yet).

http://wagesofwins.com/2012/12/06/how-kobes-all-time-record-is-average/
http://wagesofwins.com/2012/12/19/another-look-at-the-nbas-all-time-scorers/

the average NBA player doesn't have the skillset to create and take and make those many shots. That's one of the many reasons why they're average, that's why they don't have that many points. That's why they feed off from players like Kobe.

I don't know how can someone not see this simple bball fact.

TheMightyHumph
08-27-2014, 03:10 AM
Thoughts?

If he weren't such an egotistical. self-important, selfish, self-centered rapist who thinks his opinion on basketball matters when he is obviously an NBA idiot, then I might be impressed.

WadeKobe
08-27-2014, 03:51 AM
the average NBA player doesn't have the skillset to create and take and make those many shots. That's one of the many reasons why they're average, that's why they don't have that many points. That's why they feed off from players like Kobe.

I don't know how can someone not see this simple bball fact.

Look at the second link.

LakersEaglesLA
08-27-2014, 12:36 PM
Here's a pretty good article from last year debunking the whole "Kobe is way more clutch than Lebron" myth:

http://thesportsquotient.com/featured/2013/10/25/jordan-vs-lebron-vs-kobe-whos-most-clutch-in-the-playoffs

I actually think this guy pulled from other articles I'd read in the past, but it's nice that he puts all the numbers together in one place so you get a better overview. For those who don't feel like reading, here are some numbers for you.

Potential game-tying or go-ahead shots in final 24 seconds of a postseason game
Jordan: 9-18 (50%)
Lebron: 7-17 (41.1%)
Kobe: 7-28 (25%)

Potential game-tying or go-ahead shots in final 10 seconds of a postseason game
Jordan: 7-15 (47%)
Lebron: 6-14 (43%)
Kobe: 5-22 (23%)

Game-tying or go-ahead shots in final 10 seconds of a postseason game since 2003-04
Lebron: 7-16
Kobe: 5-17
Durant: 5-12
Dirk: 5-12

Game 7s
Lebron: 34/8.1/3.5 on 46.5% shooting
Jordan: 33.3/7.7/7 on 45.7% shooting
Kobe: 22.2/8/5 on 38.9% shooting

Elimination games
Lebron: 31.5/10/6.5 on 46% shooting
Jordan: 31.3/7.9/7 on 44.5% shooting
Kobe: 21.5/5.8/3.5 on 41.4% shooting

I'm not trying to diminish Kobe's accomplishments and I'll admit this post is a bit off topic, but I get so annoyed when I hear people talk about how clutch Kobe is and un-clutch ebron is. These numbers prove pretty clearly that Kobe is not more clutch than Lebron in any way, shape or form.

Nice try and I'm sorry to break your heart but NBA GMs also have the stats to use at their disposal, and They voted KOBE BEAN BRYANT to take the last shot over ANY player in the league all those years. They must know something your stats are not telling you

Hawkeye15
08-27-2014, 12:59 PM
Nice try and I'm sorry to break your heart but NBA GMs also have the stats to use at their disposal, and They voted KOBE BEAN BRYANT to take the last shot over ANY player in the league all those years. They must know something your stats are not telling you

obviously those GM's are not looking at the numbers....

It's called selective memory. Kobe has been involved in so many tight games over the years, his sheer volume of makes is large, but his sheer volume of misses is also huge. People tend to forget the misses.

That article left out that the Lakers offensive efficiency in tight games in those scenarios drops off a cliff, because everyone in the universe knows Kobe is going 1 on 5 if he needs to.

If NBA GM's are so intelligent, why are there only a few teams that have won it all the last 30 years? Face it, most of them don't do their job correctly.

Besides, hasn't Kobe moved off the top of that "who would you want taking the last shot"? I though Durant held that the last couple of years. Regardless, look at those surveys. So much of them are comical.

LakersEaglesLA
08-27-2014, 02:49 PM
obviously those GM's are not looking at the numbers....

It's called selective memory. Kobe has been involved in so many tight games over the years, his sheer volume of makes is large, but his sheer volume of misses is also huge. People tend to forget the misses.

That article left out that the Lakers offensive efficiency in tight games in those scenarios drops off a cliff, because everyone in the universe knows Kobe is going 1 on 5 if he needs to.

If NBA GM's are so intelligent, why are there only a few teams that have won it all the last 30 years? Face it, most of them don't do their job correctly.

Besides, hasn't Kobe moved off the top of that "who would you want taking the last shot"? I though Durant held that the last couple of years. Regardless, look at those surveys. So much of them are comical.

Ok so now your observations hold more weight tthan nba GMs just because your agenda is to discredit Kobe

Hawkeye15
08-27-2014, 03:19 PM
Ok so now your observations hold more weight tthan nba GMs just because your agenda is to discredit Kobe

what agenda? The proof is in the numbers dude. On top of what MBT posted, the Lakers take a nosedive to the tune of 22+ points per 100 possessions in late clock situations, because the whole defense zeroes in on Kobe, knowing he is going to shoot no matter what.

These are facts, not observations.

Jamiecballer
08-27-2014, 03:48 PM
Ok so now your observations hold more weight tthan nba GMs just because your agenda is to discredit Kobe
c'mon man. you are making yourself look foolish here.

LakersEaglesLA
08-27-2014, 04:35 PM
c'mon man. you are making yourself look foolish here.

Is that all you got? Lol

ewing
08-27-2014, 04:38 PM
what agenda? The proof is in the numbers dude. On top of what MBT posted, the Lakers take a nosedive to the tune of 22+ points per 100 possessions in late clock situations, because the whole defense zeroes in on Kobe, knowing he is going to shoot no matter what.

These are facts, not observations.


how does that compare to the nose dives that every other offense in the league takes with 5 seconds on the shot clock?

LakersEaglesLA
08-27-2014, 04:44 PM
It's amazing how far you Kobe and Lakers haters will go to try to change Whats obvious to the world. Kobe is one of the Best all-time atleast top 5. All because you don't like him. Well I could go find negative stats abt Jordan, LeBron, Durant, Duncan etc if I wanted too because stats can be beat down until it says what you want it to say, but I'm gonna go with eyes and common sense. Good luck tryna convince Real basketball fans your diagnosis of Kobe's career

Vinylman
08-27-2014, 04:50 PM
"Age is irrelevant" in a conversation about Kobe being the youngest to score a certain amount of points? I think YOU think you are in a different thread.

Look. I've bumped into you before on here, and you frequently seem like a troll and a person who enjoys being an @$$#ole. I'm not interested on wasting my time talking to you. I didn't make this thread. I responded to it. If you have an issue with a conversation about reaching a certain plateau by a certain age, talk to the OP.

If you bothered reading my posts in this thread, you would know that my whole point is the fact that the age thing is irrelevant. Kareem wasn't even allowed to enter out of highshcool. Had it been commonplace for that to happen in the NBA at the time, he would have had four more years of scoring, like Kobe.

And LBJ, who like Kobe was able to enter out of highschool, is on a faster pace than Kobe to reach that same plateau.

I actually AGREE that ageis arbitrary, which is the point I was making, only you CLEARLY have some sort of antagonistic attitude where you have to pick arguments with people even when they agree with you.


Karl Malone and Kareem both had scored more points, in less season needed fewer FG attempt to get to the point total Kobe got to. They started later, so they were slightly older.

If you compare Kobe to guys coming out of highschool... barring injury LBJ is going to break any marks Kobe set.

A Kobe fan made a thread about a statistical anomaly. You think age is arbitrary. I think age is arbitrary. You pick a fight with me and then blame me because other people on PSD use arbitrary stats.

Congrats. You wasted your time and mine.

Cheers

P.S. My vinyl collection is better than yours.

You quoted my response to chronz... i wasn't discussing your post...

in the future try to quote the entire post so people can understand the context of what is being discussed...

as for your vinyl collection... i would be interested to know why you think yours is better...

My personal collection contains over 25,000 LP's...

My public collection (ie the record store i own) is well over 100,000 pieces...

PhillyFaninLA
08-27-2014, 05:05 PM
Okay, you've got our attention. Please enlighten us oh wise one and grace us with the brilliance of your basketball knowledge. :eyebrow:

Off topic question.....what did you think of the new doctor

Jamiecballer
08-27-2014, 05:13 PM
Is that all you got? Lol
What would you say to someone who insisted the earth was flat long after it was proven it was not? You'd probably roll your eyes and wander off.

I did you a courtesy.

LakersEaglesLA
08-27-2014, 05:59 PM
Whuat would you say to someone who insisted the earth was flat long after it was proven it was not? You'd probably roll your eyes and wander off.

I did you a courtesy.

Ok I'm wrong, ex players are wrong, GMs are wrong, current players are wrong, the basketball world is wrong... You and a couple Kobe hating posters are right!

Jamiecballer
08-27-2014, 06:39 PM
Ok I'm wrong, ex players are wrong, GMs are wrong, current players are wrong, the basketball world is wrong... You and a couple Kobe hating posters are right!
No its not me or anyone else that is "right". Its the facts that are right. Those facts were not accrued by "haters" from their couch at home.

Hawkeye(?) already gave you a completely rational and scientifically proven explanation for why most people think of Kobe as being clutch despite his numbers in those situations being no better than most.

Jamiecballer
08-27-2014, 06:41 PM
Ok I'm wrong, ex players are wrong, GMs are wrong, current players are wrong, the basketball world is wrong... You and a couple Kobe hating posters are right!
Duplicate

Sactown
08-27-2014, 06:51 PM
Age based statistics are trivial since the age to enter the league is changing and who cares about age? Statistics based on seasons is what matters..

KnicksorBust
08-27-2014, 07:04 PM
Age based statistics are trivial since the age to enter the league is changing and who cares about age? Statistics based on seasons is what matters..

Lol. Or you could recognize that is ridiculously impressive and compliment one of the most epic careers of sustained greatness... either way. :)

PhillyFaninLA
08-27-2014, 07:09 PM
Age based statistics are trivial since the age to enter the league is changing and who cares about age? Statistics based on seasons is what matters..

I say games played not seasons

mightybosstone
08-27-2014, 09:01 PM
Off topic question.....what did you think of the new doctor

Dunno how I feel about it yet. The first episodes for Tennant and Smith were both better, but I kinda liked Capaldi's angry old man act. I miss Smith already, but he had kind of run his course, and I'm curious to see how an older Doctor reacts to things and handles situations differently. It all depends on the writing, though.

mightybosstone
08-27-2014, 09:03 PM
Nice try and I'm sorry to break your heart but NBA GMs also have the stats to use at their disposal, and They voted KOBE BEAN BRYANT to take the last shot over ANY player in the league all those years. They must know something your stats are not telling you

Or is it because the GMs were just showing respect to a guy who is publicly perceived as a clutch player and is a legend among his peers? Those stats are not incorrect. But a generic vote by NBA GMs doesn't tell me anything. The question might as well have been "Which superstar has the prettiest smile?"

JasonJohnHorn
08-27-2014, 09:06 PM
You quoted my response to chronz... i wasn't discussing your post...

in the future try to quote the entire post so people can understand the context of what is being discussed...

as for your vinyl collection... i would be interested to know why you think yours is better...

My personal collection contains over 25,000 LP's...

My public collection (ie the record store i own) is well over 100,000 pieces...

Oh, I'm sure you vinyl collection is better then. Congratulations.

Although, I go for quality over quantity. I only have a few hundred records, but they are all awesome. I'm sure in your 25000, you have far more bad ones than I do.

I'll take 12 members of the Dream Team over 500 second rounds picks.

Just because you have a higher quantity doesn't mean that you have higher quality.

That said... that is a pretty impressive collection. I look forward to seeing you on Hoarders if I haven't already ;-) There was a guy with a comparable collection on there once I think.

east fb knicks
08-27-2014, 09:09 PM
dam I was going to say he came in the nba at 18 but after reading this you guys made some very strong points this is very impressive for kobe but very sad at the same time if he didn't miss last year he would have broke the all time scoring record but I think it's out of his reach now but tbh it's not going to hurt his legacy kobe will still be top 5 all time

JasonJohnHorn
08-27-2014, 09:16 PM
Nice try and I'm sorry to break your heart but NBA GMs also have the stats to use at their disposal, and They voted KOBE BEAN BRYANT to take the last shot over ANY player in the league all those years. They must know something your stats are not telling you

GM's also agreed that Greg Oden was the consensus pick over Kevin Durant. How'd that work out?

There is a reason that only four GMs currently employed in the NBA have put together a team that actually won a championship. Because the majority don't know what they are talking about.

Anybody who watched the Lakers win since Kobe got on the team, knows that Horry and Fisher her more game-wining and series-winning shots that Kobe. Kobe missing, Horry get the rebound, and nails the three.

JEDean89
08-27-2014, 09:26 PM
Kupchak Ainge Riley the mavs GM and RC Buford makes 5. Joe Dumars just left but he had also.

Hawkeye15
08-27-2014, 10:13 PM
how does that compare to the nose dives that every other offense in the league takes with 5 seconds on the shot clock?

because we are talking about an offense that has ranked around 2-3rd falling over 23 points per 100 possessions, simply because the coach allows hero ball. You will never find that fall in the good teams that hard.

LakersEaglesLA
08-28-2014, 01:33 AM
GM's also agreed that Greg Oden was the consensus pick over Kevin Durant. How'd that work out?

There is a reason that only four GMs currently employed in the NBA have put together a team that actually won a championship. Because the majority don't know what they are talking about.

Anybody who watched the Lakers win since Kobe got on the team, knows that Horry and Fisher her more game-wining and series-winning shots that Kobe. Kobe missing, Horry get the rebound, and nails the three.

Your just gonna keep talking ignorant huh

mightybosstone
08-28-2014, 01:39 AM
Your just gonna keep talking ignorant huh
I hate to do this, because I just did this to a Lakers fan like a day or two ago. But don't call out someone else for being ignorant if you can't even use halfway decent grammar in the post in which you insult him. I don't mind the lack of punctuation. It's the wrong "you're" that blows my mind. How is it possible that most adults don't know the differences between "your" and "you're?" I suppose it's equally as possible as someone who looks at a set of concrete, undeniable statistics and completely ignores them in favor of a random, unscientific survey of random GMs that is heavily weighted toward public perception.

LakersEaglesLA
08-28-2014, 01:42 AM
Or is it because the GMs were just showing respect to a guy who is publicly perceived as a clutch player and is a legend among his peers? Those stats are not incorrect. But a generic vote by NBA GMs doesn't tell me anything. The question might as well have been "Which superstar has the prettiest smile?"

Oh I get it now, Anytime Kobe is voted the best at something its because people are showing respect or feeling sorry for him. But when LeBron, Jordan, Duncan, Wade, Dirk or ANY other player is voted best at something it because they earned it.. Once again you are so biased you have Zero credibility smh it's getting pretty sad

mightybosstone
08-28-2014, 01:46 AM
Oh I get it now, Anytime Kobe is voted the best at something its because people are showing respect or feeling sorry for him. But when LeBron, Jordan, Duncan, Wade, Dirk or ANY other player is voted best at something it because they earned it.. Once again you are so biased you have Zero credibility smh it's getting pretty sad

When have I ever once mentioned a single vote or survey of those particular players in any of my posts? Please provide an example.

LakersEaglesLA
08-28-2014, 01:49 AM
I oakers fan like a day or two ago. But don't call out someone else for being ignorant if you can't even use halfway decent grammar in the post in which you insult him. I don't mind the lack of punctuation. It's the wrong "you're" that blows my mind. How is it possible that most adults don't know the differences between "your" and "you're?" I suppose it's equally as possible as someone who looks at a set of concrete, undeniable statistics and completely ignores them in favor of a random, unscientific survey of random GMs that is heavily weighted toward public perception.

It's called texting out of convenience without every punctuation, I am college educated and if you want to challenge me to a English grammer contest I'm ready name time and place. Some things go without saying but I guess "your" desperately looking for an insult

mightybosstone
08-28-2014, 01:52 AM
It's called texting out of convenience without every punctuation, I am college educated and if you want to challenge me to a English grammer contest I'm ready name time and place. Some things go without saying but I guess "your" desperately looking for an insult

Okay. Let's have that contest right now. You incorrectly spelled "grammar." I win.

LakersEaglesLA
08-28-2014, 01:55 AM
[QUOTE=mightybosstone;28974058]When have I ever once mentioned a single vkoote or survey of those particular players in any of my posts? Please provide an example.[/QUOTE
I dont care to keep track of all the hating comments of a hater... But We Laker fans know who you are

LakersEaglesLA
08-28-2014, 01:59 AM
Okay. Let's have that contest right now. You incorrectly spelled "grammar." I win.

Just like "your" team, can win a battle but can Never Win A War.. lol turn off "your" spell check

slashsnake
08-28-2014, 05:17 AM
Okay. Let's have that contest right now. You incorrectly spelled "grammar." I win.

lol. I think that one ends it.

ewing
08-28-2014, 06:55 AM
because we are talking about an offense that has ranked around 2-3rd falling over 23 points per 100 possessions, simply because the coach allows hero ball. You will never find that fall in the good teams that hard.

i'm sure every team in the league scores at a worse rate in late shot clock situations. If you haven't compared the Lakers dip to anyone elese's that stat is meaningless. I don't know the answer to my own question. Maybe they were terrible and then its something to think about.

WadeKobe
08-28-2014, 11:02 AM
Just like "your" team, can win a battle but can Never Win A War.. lol turn off "your" spell check

Just quit. I am so tired of kobe fans.

They have ruined his career for me. My dad is a real, die-hard laker can who loved Kobe from day one. But he loved him because he was a laker. Not the other way around. I always liked Kobe until I started meeting Kobe fans. AD this site has made it worse.

Kobe is not a top5 player. There is no argument for it.
Kobe is not the best of his generation. There is no argument for it.
Kobe is not the greatest laker. There is no argument for it.
Kobe is no longer a star in the NBA. There is no argument for it.

Such a media myth was created that young fans clung to. And then those same fans got sour when some in the media wised up to the fact that Lebron was the real "next Jordan", and that Kobe would never live up.

A answer me this. Do you win at the end of a game by making or missing the last second shot?

JasonJohnHorn
08-28-2014, 05:27 PM
Your just gonna keep talking ignorant huh

You want to point out the flaw in my logic, go ahead. You throw insults and fail to speak to content.

You = troll.

JasonJohnHorn
08-28-2014, 05:29 PM
I hate to do this, because I just did this to a Lakers fan like a day or two ago. But don't call out someone else for being ignorant if you can't even use halfway decent grammar in the post in which you insult him. I don't mind the lack of punctuation. It's the wrong "you're" that blows my mind. How is it possible that most adults don't know the differences between "your" and "you're?" I suppose it's equally as possible as someone who looks at a set of concrete, undeniable statistics and completely ignores them in favor of a random, unscientific survey of random GMs that is heavily weighted toward public perception.

+1

Hawkeye15
08-28-2014, 05:30 PM
i'm sure every team in the league scores at a worse rate in late shot clock situations. If you haven't compared the Lakers dip to anyone elese's that stat is meaningless. I don't know the answer to my own question. Maybe they were terrible and then its something to think about.

I can probably find it again, but the article I read showed the Lakers offense falls MUCH further than any good team over the Kobe era, efficiency wise on offense, in closing moments. Because of hero ball. The Spurs meanwhile, didn't even move much.

LakersEaglesLA
08-28-2014, 05:41 PM
Just quit. I am so tired of kobe fans.

They have ruined his career for me. My dad is a real, die-hard laker can who loved Kobe from day one. But he loved him because he was a laker. Not the other way around. I always liked Kobe until I started meeting Kobe fans. AD this site has made it worse.

Kobe is not a top5 player. There is no argument for it.
Kobe is not the best of his generation. There is no argument for it.
Kobe is not the greatest laker. There is no argument for it.
Kobe is no longer a star in the NBA. There is no argument for it.

Such a media myth was created that young fans clung to. And then those same fans got sour when some in the media wised up to the fact that Lebron was the real "next Jordan", and that Kobe would never live up.

A answer me this. Do you win at the end of a game by making or missing the last second shot?

I dont care if you are tired of Kobe fans, You cant change history. The man's accomplishments are endless. You don't get to change that because your tired of Kobe fans. He's got 5 rings you stick in your @**. Jordan himself said Kobe is the Only player he is comfortable having compared to him.

LakersEaglesLA
08-28-2014, 05:48 PM
You want to point out the flaw in my logic, go
ahead. You throw insults and fail to speak to content.

You = troll.

Lakers fan since 1978. Kobe fan also. Those 2 have all the content I need. = success

WadeKobe
08-28-2014, 06:37 PM
I dont care if you are tired of Kobe fans, You cant change history. The man's accomplishments are endless. You don't get to change that because your tired of Kobe fans. He's got 5 rings you stick in your @**. Jordan himself said Kobe is the Only player he is comfortable having compared to him.

(1) I agree Kobe hS had a very great career. Not as great as the Kobe stans would have us believe. There is a difference.

(2) who cares what Michael Jordan says? The same guy who couldn't build a contender or draft worth a ****?

Just because you yourself were a good player does not mean that you are an accurate judge of other players.

Lastly, you didn't answer my question.

Do you win at the end of the game by making or missing the go-ahead shot?

LakersEaglesLA
08-28-2014, 07:07 PM
(1) I agree Kobe hS had a very great career. Not as great as the Kobe stans would have us believe. There is a difference.

(2) who cares what Michael Jordan says? The same guy who couldn't build a contender or draft worth a ****?

Just because you yourself were a good player does not mean that you are an accurate judge of other players.

Lastly, you didn't answer my question.

Do you win at the end of the game by making or missing the go-ahead shot?

Considering I actually played basketball on a Varsity and college level you win at end of game by making shot. You win some you lose some but you Always want the best player to take shot and you live with result. And to try to discredit Jordan because he is not a great GM is utterly ridiculous

SportsFanatic10
08-28-2014, 07:21 PM
it's a great feat...but i'd be more interested to know if he has the most points in the 1245 games he's played then by age. does anyone know?

WadeKobe
08-28-2014, 07:21 PM
Considering I actually played basketball on a Varsity and college level you win at end of game by making shot. You win some you lose some but you Always want the best player to take shot and you live with result. And to try to discredit Jordan because he is not a great GM is utterly ridiculous

Discredit? In what way?

He is arguably the greatest player of all time. He is not good at evaluating player talent, illustrated by his (lack of) success at GM.

Hawkeye15
09-03-2014, 12:38 AM
Considering I actually played basketball on a Varsity and college level you win at end of game by making shot. You win some you lose some but you Always want the best player to take shot and you live with result. And to try to discredit Jordan because he is not a great GM is utterly ridiculous

you obviously never coached with that mentality....

Tony_Starks
09-03-2014, 03:03 AM
Why even make threads giving Kobe his props? Just brings out trolls, discrediting, and slick back handed compliments.

His resume speaks for itself, those of us without hate in our blood know how ridiculous his accomplishments are....

koreancabbage
09-03-2014, 10:43 AM
great feat. I think Lebron and Durant can pass that mark by the time they get to 36. I think they are already on pace or have more points at their stages of their careers vs Kobe.

but we digress. I still like Kobe. one of the generation's most iconic players.