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View Full Version : What happened to the low-post in the modern NBA?



KnicksorBust
08-22-2014, 08:24 PM
Why do you believe traditional back to the basket, inside-out, style basketball has become less popular in the last 20 years?

jaydubb
08-22-2014, 08:27 PM
I'll tell ya what happened.. Michael Jordan happened.. Everybody wanna be like mike.

jaydubb
08-22-2014, 08:28 PM
It's just more attractive for a crossover and pullup jumper then for a backdown, fake to one shoulder and hook shot over the other

IndyRealist
08-22-2014, 08:32 PM
Rule changes. Hand checking, zone, 3 seconds in the paint, 5 second backdown, all favor face up wing players over low post players.

bagwell368
08-22-2014, 08:44 PM
The 3 pointer is the main reason.

The great low post players (McHale, Hakeem, Malone, etc.) all grew up with the 2 pointer and focus on Centers (check out the # of MVP's before and after the 3). Same with the Coaches. Now that everybody has grown up with the 3 (Coaches and players both), they just want to throw up J's.

I'm sure I'll get hooted on for this, but there aren't probably 5 players in the NBA that had my hours at developing a jump hook, or the results I got (in my prime). It's not that I was that great - because back then there were guys at my level (college) commonly seen that were better, it's that it's a totally dying/dead art in this generation.

Iron24th
08-22-2014, 09:14 PM
Rule changes. Hand checking, zone, 3 seconds in the paint, 5 second backdown, all favor face up wing players over low post players.

This

Hawkeye15
08-22-2014, 09:27 PM
Why do you believe traditional back to the basket, inside-out, style basketball has become less popular in the last 20 years?

it for sure has, for various reasons. Combine the fact that many big men started to learn more perimeter oriented basketball skills, and the fact that this type of offense has shown to not be as efficient as spacing the floor and attacking off the pass/dribble, and the days of dumping it into the low post and watching your big man spend 10 seconds of the shot clock getting a paint look has nearly gone away. Today, its more of a matchup ploy, not a staple.

Hawkeye15
08-22-2014, 09:29 PM
Rule changes. Hand checking, zone, 3 seconds in the paint, 5 second backdown, all favor face up wing players over low post players.

a lot to do with it as well

Meth
08-22-2014, 09:30 PM
The establishment of the three point line.

slashsnake
08-22-2014, 09:46 PM
dead on there. Rule changes including the 3 pt line, zone D, 3 and 5 second rules, hand checking opening up for quicker guards, etc.

The three has been a huge part of the game. You think of BJ Armstrong as a 3 pt specialist. 17% of his shots were from beyond the arc. Steph Curry has 40% of his from there. It's a big change.

effen5
08-22-2014, 09:56 PM
Less skilled big men

Hawkeye15
08-22-2014, 10:03 PM
Less skilled big men

or are they more skilled now..

valade16
08-22-2014, 10:24 PM
The 3 pointer is the main reason.

The great low post players (McHale, Hakeem, Malone, etc.) all grew up with the 2 pointer and focus on Centers (check out the # of MVP's before and after the 3). Same with the Coaches. Now that everybody has grown up with the 3 (Coaches and players both), they just want to throw up J's.

I'm sure I'll get hooted on for this, but there aren't probably 5 players in the NBA that had my hours at developing a jump hook, or the results I got (in my prime). It's not that I was that great - because back then there were guys at my level (college) commonly seen that were better, it's that it's a totally dying/dead art in this generation.

Hit the nail on the head. My brother says the 3-pointer is the worst thing that has ever happened to basketball. I won't go that far but I do think it has run its course and is no longer necessary. It has served its purpose (creating spacing and opening the game up) but has in the process killed low post play.

LMA is considered the best (or certainly among the best) in the game right now in terms of post moves and even he shoots long jumpers far more often than he plays in the low block. If we got rid of the 3 pointer the need to have spacing wouldn't change but all this just being lazy and jacking up 3's would be eliminated. Consider how backwards the 3 has made our perception of what a good shot is.

Many people would rather you stop and shoot a 3 pointer on a fast break rather than try to take it to the rim. The 3 pointer at this point is warping what basketball was.

KnicksorBust
08-22-2014, 10:24 PM
Less skilled big men

Who is more skilled: Patrick Ewing or Dirk Nowitzki?

sens#11fan
08-22-2014, 10:36 PM
Who is more skilled: Patrick Ewing or Dirk Nowitzki?

Close but i'd have to go with Dirk

5ass
08-22-2014, 10:41 PM
Faster, bigger, and more athletic team defense among other things already mentioned.

slashsnake
08-22-2014, 11:04 PM
Another to throw out there would be the college game. Who's the last great post player to come out of college you can think of?

There's no more spending 4 years at Georgetown or Wake Forest working on your post moves. Instead you get a guy like Embiid who looks like he could have the start of a great low post game, but it still has a ways to go.

valade16
08-22-2014, 11:07 PM
Who is more skilled: Patrick Ewing or Dirk Nowitzki?

Are we talking offense only or overall? Because Ewing is way more skilled in virtually every defensive skill asked. I'd also argue that Ewing had a more well rounded offensive game than Dirk, Dirk is just better at the skills he is really good at.

Ewing could shoot the midrange, do several post moves and was an adequate passer as well. He definitely had a well rounded game.

Phantom Dreamer
08-22-2014, 11:09 PM
Less skilled big men

Who is more skilled: Patrick Ewing or Dirk Nowitzki?Well, Ewing was a superior defensive player, rebounder and shot blocker. Traditional center skills

dodie53
08-22-2014, 11:53 PM
7 seconds or less happened

Mr.B
08-23-2014, 12:39 AM
I'll tell ya what happened.. Michael Jordan happened.. Everybody wanna be like mike.
Exactly!

slashsnake
08-23-2014, 12:55 AM
Exactly!

Maybe... but before that everyone wanted to be like Magic, or Bird, or Dr J. Mike had a better low post game than just about any perimeter player his 2nd go round...

99.99% of us aren't 7' so there's nobody out there really hoping to be the next Dwight or Shaq... or at that time the next Kareem or Wilt, or Moses Malone.

It's why Kobe's more popular in China than Yao. Hard to emulate someone 7'4" tall on the court and copy his flat foot dunk move.

Shady66
08-23-2014, 01:09 AM
It pisses me off, a lot of these bigs when they get an Iso in the post, they either face up, or throw up an ugly post move. Blake Griffin is a good example. When he posts up so often he shoots shots off the wrong foot.
I think lack of fundamentals are missing from bigs today as well as what others have said. A guy like scola has/had a solid career based on good footwork in the post.

JEDean89
08-23-2014, 02:50 AM
I feel like the game just picked up in pace and really you need your C to protect the paint and run the floor. If a 7 footer can do those 2 things he can be a role player in the league. I feel like young bigs now are working on different skillsets growing up. When they get to the pro level they work on keeping their hands straight up and finishing lobs. Guards and Wings are so good in this league that you don't need 20 points from your C. When was the last time a team won with a C as their best player? Probably Shaq or Duncan. I feel like the offenses we see popular today just don't emphasize a back to the basket game because they don't want it slowed down too much.

Tony_Starks
08-23-2014, 03:52 AM
Post game footwork and fundamentals are no longer a emphasis in college, or high school for that matter. People prefer for their Bigs to have a face up game and long range.

Crackadalic
08-23-2014, 04:19 AM
Kid's today just want to shoot nowadays

Purple Monkey
08-23-2014, 05:09 AM
Another to throw out there would be the college game. Who's the last great post player to come out of college you can think of?

There's no more spending 4 years at Georgetown or Wake Forest working on your post moves. Instead you get a guy like Embiid who looks like he could have the start of a great low post game, but it still has a ways to go.

cousins is a beast.


jordan and scoring point guards, along with the 3 pt line have changed things a lot. also the way the way the nba markets their brand as fast paced and exciting, in turn makes the media and fans focus on players with those abilities.

PurpleLynch
08-23-2014, 06:26 AM
Multiple reasons:different rules than before,more three point oriented teams,working less on the post and more on shooting(even big men) etc...
But my hope never dies,someday a center like Shaq will appear and the league will be destroyed in the paint,using just post moves :D

IndyRealist
08-23-2014, 09:24 AM
People are mistaking correlation with causation. The 3pt line was implemented in 1979, so are we saying that Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, Duncan, Malone, Barkley, and Shaq all were not dominant, low post big men? Of course not, that'd be silly. The 3pt line in and of itself did not destroy the low post big man; it was the deliberate effort of the NBA to promote the next Michael Jordan by changing the rules so that you could no longer dominate the game in the post. It was anti-Shaq legislation. The NBA wanted up tempo, higher scoring games and power post teams play a slower pace with a heavy emphasis on D.

Since teams could no longer get their offense from the post, they switched to the mid-range game, shooting 16-20fters. Except those are horrible value shots, and once people started paying attention to stats they realized that the 3 is FAR more efficient than the long 2.

High school and collegiate teams saw the shift in philosophy in the NBA, where all their players want to end up, and switched their focus accordingly. They stopped teaching post skills and taught big men to shoot jumpers, because that’s what the NBA wants from big men now. The more NBA players a program pumps out, the better recruiting classes they will get, hence their motivation for following the NBA’s lead.

All of this started because the NBA wanted higher scoring games, because people like to watch scoring. The masses do not watch defense, they’re watching the guy with the ball. From 1999:


The belief is that more offense creates more excitement, which creates more interest, more ticket sales and more ratings - just what television networks are looking for.

"The goal was to create more movement," said Thomas, the former Detroit Pistons guard who works for NBC. "Yes, more offense is needed and more offense is wanted. No one's trying to destroy the game.
http://articles.philly.com/1999-09-25/sports/25487500_1_contact-rules-coaches-hand-checking
You can see the effect in an article from 2009:

Free-flowing offense is now the norm, with players able to go almost unencumbered anywhere on the court. As such, the game's most dominant individual players and those that are just good at drawing contact have even more of a chance to get to the foul line. So stars like Dwight Howard (the league leader in free throw attempts this season with 849), Dwyane Wade (second, 771) and LeBron James (third, 762) can have an even more outsized impact on games.

"You can't even touch a guy now," says Charlotte coach Larry Brown. "The college game is much more physical than our game. I always tease Michael [Jordan], if he played today, he'd average 50."

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/david_aldridge/04/22/aldridge.defenses/


The direct cause of the decline of the low post big man is the rule changes. Everything else people are mentioning is a result of that.

Mr.B
08-23-2014, 10:05 AM
Maybe... but before that everyone wanted to be like Magic, or Bird, or Dr J. Mike had a better low post game than just about any perimeter player his 2nd go round...

99.99% of us aren't 7' so there's nobody out there really hoping to be the next Dwight or Shaq... or at that time the next Kareem or Wilt, or Moses Malone.

It's why Kobe's more popular in China than Yao. Hard to emulate someone 7'4" tall on the court and copy his flat foot dunk move.
True not everyone is 7' tall. And its actually not all Jordan's fault. ESPN shares a lot of the blame as do the And1 Mixtapes.

First when it comes to Jordan he had a worldwide influence. Look at a guy like Dirk for instance. He has said that he was a huge Jordan fan as a kid and wanted to be a guard. Playing with your back to the basket just didn't look cool and definitely doesn't get you on Sportscenter.

Which brings me to ESPN. When they show they're top 10 plays his many of them are of guys backing some down in the paint? None, they're all guys dunking or hitting some buzzer beating 3. They never show plays where a guy is backing someone down or hitting a mid-range jumper. They're not exciting plays.

Then there are the mixtapes. Are they fun to watch? Definitely! Those guys can do some pretty amazing things with the basketball. None of it is fundamentally sound though. At the NBA level fundamentals are necessary for success. A whole generation of kids grew up on those mixtapes. You rarely see a guy backing someone down on those mixtapes. Almost every guy turns around and faces his man and tries to take him off the dribble.

You also have kids leaving college early. It use to be common for guys to stay 4 years in college and developed their game. Big men learned how to back a guy a guy down. Staying 4 years also allowed their body time to develop. By the time they got to the NBA they knew how to do it and they were physically strong enough to back a guy down. Now bigs are so damn skinny when they get to the NBA after only 1 year of college even guys like Dirk, Bosh, and Aldridge can just shove them out of the way if they wanted. There was no way in hell guys like Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing, or Hakeem were going to get pushed around. Not even in their rookie years.

valade16
08-23-2014, 10:42 AM
People are mistaking correlation with causation. The 3pt line was implemented in 1979, so are we saying that Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, Duncan, Malone, Barkley, and Shaq all were not dominant, low post big men? Of course not, that'd be silly. The 3pt line in and of itself did not destroy the low post big man; it was the deliberate effort of the NBA to promote the next Michael Jordan by changing the rules so that you could no longer dominate the game in the post. It was anti-Shaq legislation.

The direct cause of the decline of the low post big man is the rule changes. Everything else people are mentioning is a result of that.

This is based on the fallacy that as soon as the 3-pt line was introduced it became fully immersed in the fabric of the game. It took a long time for the 3-pointer to take hold as a strategy. The leading 3-pt shooters in the 80's were taking 2 maybe 3 attempts a game. In the 90's people were taking 4-5. Nowadays guys like Lillard and Curry are shooting 6-7 per game. Heck, virtually every wing player in the game today shoots more 3's per season than Bird ever did...

The reason Hakeem and Ewing and Shaq and them all had great low post games is they grew up with teams still emphasizing the old paradigm. Kyle Korver said that when he first came in the league they weren't designing plays to get 3-pt shooters open. And that was what 2000? Nowadays everyone focuses on the 3-pt shot. Go to any court and watch the kids play. How many practice or even do a post move? You'll likely see what I see, everyone is shooting around jacking up 3's.

But to summarize and refute your point once again, what season do you think the 3-pt line became a genuine focus or strategy for offense in the league? If it was after Shaq, D-Rob, Hakeem, and Ewing came in the league you can see your point is slightly off base.

Meaze_Gibson
08-23-2014, 11:41 AM
The refs/nba dont allow the physicality for a low post game. If you decide to post up with back to basket, more than likely you are getting an offensive foul after the first "bump". Between the flopping of big men, the fear of being aggressive on a back down, and the importance of the three pointer the post game is gone.

IndyRealist
08-23-2014, 11:56 AM
This is based on the fallacy that as soon as the 3-pt line was introduced it became fully immersed in the fabric of the game. It took a long time for the 3-pointer to take hold as a strategy. The leading 3-pt shooters in the 80's were taking 2 maybe 3 attempts a game. In the 90's people were taking 4-5. Nowadays guys like Lillard and Curry are shooting 6-7 per game. Heck, virtually every wing player in the game today shoots more 3's per season than Bird ever did...

The reason Hakeem and Ewing and Shaq and them all had great low post games is they grew up with teams still emphasizing the old paradigm. Kyle Korver said that when he first came in the league they weren't designing plays to get 3-pt shooters open. And that was what 2000? Nowadays everyone focuses on the 3-pt shot. Go to any court and watch the kids play. How many practice or even do a post move? You'll likely see what I see, everyone is shooting around jacking up 3's.

But to summarize and refute your point once again, what season do you think the 3-pt line became a genuine focus or strategy for offense in the league? If it was after Shaq, D-Rob, Hakeem, and Ewing came in the league you can see your point is slightly off base.
Your assumption is that the "old paradigm" did not work any longer and was replaced with the 3pt model as people discovered it was more efficient. That might be true if you ignore ALL OF THE RULE CHANGES that happened in the 90's and 00's. The post heavy offense was prominently featured into the early 2000's. The league has simply piled one rule after another to limit the ability of post players to effectively operate, while opening up driving lanes for ball dominant wing players.

And if you'd actually complete that comment by Korver, he said that HE WAS TOLD TO SHOOT LONG 2s. Just like I said. Then Jim O'Brien came in and chastised him for shooting 2s, and he thought it was fantastic. For most of a decade commenters lamented the "lost art" of the midrange jumper, and only recently have they come to accept that it's because the long 2 is a bad shot.

It was a gradual change as it became obvious to coaches that the league was legislating against post play, and changing the game to suit more marketable perimeter players who shoot from the outside and face-up drive to the rim. The Korver quote does not say anything about post play, it's about the transition from long 2s to the 3pt shot.

Here is the quote

It’s a telling contrast with Korver’s first season in Philly, when Randy Ayers, the team’s head coach, pushed Korver away from the 3-point arc. Ayers wanted his rookie to develop a midrange game and attack the basket before launching triples.


That changed when Philly fired Ayers and hired Jim O’Brien, late of the Celtics, before Korver’s second season in 2004-05. In the team’s very first practice, Allen Iverson ran a two-on-one fast break with Korver filling the wing. Iverson dished to Korver behind the 3-point arc. Korver took two dribbles, nailed a 17-footer, and waited for the applause.


O’Brien was livid. He screamed for Korver to look down at the 3-point line. O’Brien told him that if Korver ever passed up another open 3-pointer, he would remove him from the game. Korver remembers one thought flying through his head during O’Brien’s tirade: This is awesome.


If there were no 3 second rule, no zone, and handchecking on perimeter players, guys like Dwight and Marc Gasol would be MVPs and games would top out in the low 90s.

effen5
08-23-2014, 11:56 AM
Who is more skilled: Patrick Ewing or Dirk Nowitzki?
Who is more skilled: Hakeem or the entire centers in this era combined?

D-Leethal
08-23-2014, 01:05 PM
Everyone wanna be like Mike.

SLY WILLIAMS
08-23-2014, 01:21 PM
The rules were by far the number 1 reason. Stern wanted to speed up the game and open up the lane. He did not like the 65-61 type defensive battles between the Pistons, Knicks, Miami, etc. He also wanted to do away with the Mark Jackson and Charles Barkley pounding and holding the ball in the paint waiting for the double team.

valade16
08-23-2014, 01:40 PM
Your assumption is that the "old paradigm" did not work any longer and was replaced with the 3pt model as people discovered it was more efficient. That might be true if you ignore ALL OF THE RULE CHANGES that happened in the 90's and 00's. The post heavy offense was prominently featured into the early 2000's. The league has simply piled one rule after another to limit the ability of post players to effectively operate, while opening up driving lanes for ball dominant wing players.

And if you'd actually complete that comment by Korver, he said that HE WAS TOLD TO SHOOT LONG 2s. Just like I said. Then Jim O'Brien came in and chastised him for shooting 2s, and he thought it was fantastic. For most of a decade commenters lamented the "lost art" of the midrange jumper, and only recently have they come to accept that it's because the long 2 is a bad shot.

It was a gradual change as it became obvious to coaches that the league was legislating against post play, and changing the game to suit more marketable perimeter players who shoot from the outside and face-up drive to the rim. The Korver quote does not say anything about post play, it's about the transition from long 2s to the 3pt shot.

Here is the quote


If there were no 3 second rule, no zone, and handchecking on perimeter players, guys like Dwight and Marc Gasol would be MVPs and games would top out in the low 90s.

First I am not assuming the old paradigm does not work any longer merely that kids don't practice it. When you talk about the rule changes you are talking about the NBA, but how good a person is in the post begins LONG before that. Kids and young players didn't come into the league with elite post skills and then abandoned them in the pros, they came in NOT having any to begin with.

How could rule changes have impacted kids who didn't develop post skills BEFORE the rule changes were implemented? Who were the last guys to come in the league with bonafide post skills? Tim Duncan and Pau Gasol? Yes things like kids joining AAU teams, not staying college to develop those skills, the rule changes, etc. have all had an effect, but the nexus of the philosophical shift began when people started focusing on the outside (specifically the 3) instead of the inside.

lol, please
08-23-2014, 02:45 PM
It's just more attractive for a crossover and pullup jumper then for a backdown, fake to one shoulder and hook shot over the other

It's not about what's more attractive it's about what's efficient and conducive to winning.

IndyRealist
08-23-2014, 05:37 PM
First I am not assuming the old paradigm does not work any longer merely that kids don't practice it. When you talk about the rule changes you are talking about the NBA, but how good a person is in the post begins LONG before that. Kids and young players didn't come into the league with elite post skills and then abandoned them in the pros, they came in NOT having any to begin with.

How could rule changes have impacted kids who didn't develop post skills BEFORE the rule changes were implemented? Who were the last guys to come in the league with bonafide post skills? Tim Duncan and Pau Gasol? Yes things like kids joining AAU teams, not staying college to develop those skills, the rule changes, etc. have all had an effect, but the nexus of the philosophical shift began when people started focusing on the outside (specifically the 3) instead of the inside.

Once again, because these rule changed happened over time. A kid comes into the league at 19, meaning when the rules we're talking about started going into effect Andrew Wiggins was 5. Positions aren't really taught exclusively until 10-12 years old, because that's when kids hit middle school and puberty and you can get an idea of how tall they are going to be. So we're talking big man development that's 7-9 years long at best. Everyone knew which way the wind was blowing, and changed their teaching accordingly. There was no singular point where the NBA gave up on the power post. Memphis and Indiana to an extent still use it.

NYKalltheway
08-23-2014, 05:38 PM
rule changes
lack of fundamental skills like footwork which American players tend to learn in college, which they now skip
guard-mania.. actually Jordan-mania. I've even seen footage of a 7footer in high school driving to the basket and attempting crossovers!

Bruno
08-23-2014, 05:39 PM
Rule Changes, image.

NYKalltheway
08-23-2014, 05:53 PM
I have to agree with everything IndyRealist has posted so far.

valade16
08-23-2014, 07:05 PM
When did these first rules changes happen? When was hand checking made illegal? How many good post players were in the league at that time. Andrew Wiggins? What a joke, what about 10-15 years ago?

Can anyone explain how there were no new post players coming into the league BEFORE the rule changes?

NYKalltheway
08-23-2014, 07:12 PM
the first rule changes to 'favor' guards were implemented, at least on paper, in 1994 iirc.

IndyRealist
08-23-2014, 08:15 PM
When did these first rules changes happen? When was hand checking made illegal? How many good post players were in the league at that time. Andrew Wiggins? What a joke, what about 10-15 years ago?

Can anyone explain how there were no new post players coming into the league BEFORE the rule changes?

You didn't read anything I wrote before you started telling me I was wrong, did you? In 1999 the NBA changed handchecking rules, implemented the 5 second backdown rule, and started implementing zone defense. That was 15 years ago. 4 generations of high school players. I posted a link you apparently didn't read.

And you don't think any great post players came into the league prior to then? Tim Duncan? Kevin Garnett? Yao? You seem to think these rules were changed 5 years ago.

valade16
08-23-2014, 09:17 PM
You didn't read anything I wrote before you started telling me I was wrong, did you? In 1999 the NBA changed handchecking rules, implemented the 5 second backdown rule, and started implementing zone defense. That was 15 years ago. 4 generations of high school players. I posted a link you apparently didn't read.

And you don't think any great post players came into the league prior to then? Tim Duncan? Kevin Garnett? Yao? You seem to think these rules were changed 5 years ago.

I did read what your wrote, I was asking rhetorical questions. What is astounding is your inability to get my point. I'm not talking about the generations of players that came along AFTER the rule changes, I'm talking about the players that came along BEFORE the rule changes.

Consider what you said, the rule changes took place in 1999 and the last 2 great post players to come up were Garnett and Duncan, BOTH drafted before 99 BTW. So only 2 good post players from PREVIOUS generations to the rule changes came along but somehow the lack of good post players was due to the rule changes?

Did HS and College coaches know not to develop post moves because they could PREDICT THE FUTURE and knew the league was going to implement rules changes in 99? It makes no sense. Your timeline is way off.

Here are the big men drafted in 98-01:

98: Olowakandi, LaFrentz, Robert Traylor, Dirk
99: Brand, Odom
00: kenyon, stromile swift, mihm
01: Kwame Brown, Chandler, Pau, Eddy Curry

Only 2 of those guys even had any post moves (brand and pau). So what you're telling me is these guys, who developed BEFORE the rule changes of 99, somehow trained to model their game after rule changes that HADN'T EVEN BEEN IMPLEMENTED YET.

Seems a little odd don't you think? Can you explain how the lack of post game PRECEDED the rule changes?

IndyRealist
08-23-2014, 10:02 PM
I did read what your wrote, I was asking rhetorical questions. What is astounding is your inability to get my point. I'm not talking about the generations of players that came along AFTER the rule changes, I'm talking about the players that came along BEFORE the rule changes.

Consider what you said, the rule changes took place in 1999 and the last 2 great post players to come up were Garnett and Duncan, BOTH drafted before 99 BTW. So only 2 good post players from PREVIOUS generations to the rule changes came along but somehow the lack of good post players was due to the rule changes?

Did HS and College coaches know not to develop post moves because they could PREDICT THE FUTURE and knew the league was going to implement rules changes in 99? It makes no sense. Your timeline is way off.

Here are the big men drafted in 98-01:

98: Olowakandi, LaFrentz, Robert Traylor, Dirk
99: Brand, Odom
00: kenyon, stromile swift, mihm
01: Kwame Brown, Chandler, Pau, Eddy Curry

Only 2 of those guys even had any post moves (brand and pau). So what you're telling me is these guys, who developed BEFORE the rule changes of 99, somehow trained to model their game after rule changes that HADN'T EVEN BEEN IMPLEMENTED YET.

Seems a little odd don't you think? Can you explain how the lack of post game PRECEDED the rule changes?
Zach Randolph 2001, Yao Ming 2002, Chris Kaman 2003, Al Jefferson 2004, Andrew Bynum 2005, Greg Oden 2007, Brook Lopez 2008.

jaydubb
08-23-2014, 10:07 PM
It's not about what's more attractive it's about what's efficient and conducive to winning.

You really think they went away from the low post and moved more to the jumpshot because it's more effective? I hope I misunderstood you because I really disagree with that..

AIRMAR72
08-23-2014, 10:19 PM
i'll tell ya what happened.. Michael jordan happened.. Everybody wanna be like mike. correct!!

Theyhateme459
08-25-2014, 07:44 AM
There are a lot of theories out there.... I will say coaching at the AAU and Pre highschool levels.

We have seen in the NBA (Duncan) that players with good fundamentals and post moves can still be extremely effective. However there is a lack of supply. I think part of it stems for the increased early early competition level in AAU or other organizations. Before those were years to start learning the game, understanding basic fundamentals like footwork, technique, form ect....

Now for the high skilled players at an early level it's run and gun, score score score and win. When you have these pressures to perform early and scouts watching you this early there is not the time there needed to develop and work on the fundamentals. I followed the AAU circuit for awhile (For family playing) and I believe this is the reason. Youth now see all the highlights on youtube and also want to be a highlight reel skipping the basic fundamentals.

FOBolous
08-25-2014, 08:02 AM
rules changes (hand checking, zone, 3 seconds in the paint, 5 second back-down...credit to IndyRealist) implemented by Stern in an effort to increase the pace of the game and up the scoring to make the games more "exciting" thus more "marketable." apparently Stern did not think the old, grind it out, inside-out style of playing is exciting enough.

NYKalltheway
08-25-2014, 09:07 AM
valade, I disagree with the 3 point thing you said.

We see this in all sports where there's a "goal". Kids love to shoot from distance when they aren't being tutored.
In soccer for example all kids will either try to hit a penalty vs a goalie or try to curve the ball into the net from way too much distance. Range apprently shows something that comes natural to humans.
Same applies to basketball. Obviously now the long range shot is worth more, so there's a "hits the winner at the buzzer" effect that kids love, but in the past there were long range shots too.

If we were in the 60s, we wouldn't find kids playing the low post anymore than we do now when they weren't supervised by a coach. They'd be hitting long range shots and clamouring about hitting a shot from the greatest distance. You can ask older generation players about that and they'll testify.

What killed the low post is the rules and the hype for guards.

Pretty much what IndyRealist said plus the fact that it became easier for kids to get into basketball since they didn't have to be 7ft to dominate in the most popular league. And that wasn't even the case.
Oscar Robertson, John Havlicek, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Pete Maravich and others, even later stars such as David Thompson and Julius Erving are proof that there always was hype for non-post players. This just surpassed the center hype when Magic and Bird came along and when MJ was in his prime, everyone wanted to be like Mike. Which is why the recent stars such as Kobe and Wade also have very similar moves. They tried to copy MJ.
The rules made it tougher for the bigs, so even 7 footers are trying to be "like Mike" these days (eg: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wttjoWjzvm4 )