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ManRam
08-21-2014, 12:48 PM
Voting for #23 has concluded and PSD's Official #23 NBA Player of all time is....

John Havlicek

Voting

John Havlicek 12
Elgin Baylor 7
Patrick Ewing 6
Scottie Pippen 5
John Stockton 3
Clyde Drexler 2
George Gervin 2
Isiah Thomas 1
Bill Walton 1
Kevin Durant 1

Rick Barry 0
Bob Cousy 0
Clyde Frazier 0
Jason Kidd 0
Kevin McHale 0
George Mikan 0
Chris Paul 0



The List:

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?871758-PSD-s-Top-50-List-of-the-Greatest-NBA-Players-of-All-Time&p=28837457#post28837457

Per the usual, vote, explain and nominate.

ThuglifeJ
08-21-2014, 01:26 PM
Jstock or Kidd.

FlashBolt
08-21-2014, 01:30 PM
Stockton should be gone.

Chronz
08-21-2014, 01:54 PM
Why any pg ahead of pippen

KnicksorBust
08-21-2014, 02:36 PM
Why any pg ahead of pippen

This.

Pippen should go directly after Havlicek. He's the 90s version with better D

Bruno
08-21-2014, 02:46 PM
I like Pippen here.

Longhornfan1234
08-21-2014, 02:47 PM
Drexler.

Prime Clyde had multiple .200 WS/48 seasons while averaging 27/8/6. He took his team to 2 finals and WCF with out all nba teammate. Only a few wing players IN HISTORY averaged 26/7/7 while carrying 0 all nba teammates to the finals. He 's one of the greatest all around player/open court players in history. It's too bad he ran against an ULTRA STACKED Pistons and Bulls.

Longhornfan1234
08-21-2014, 03:06 PM
Drexler > Pippen. Drexler was at least equal in non scoring aspects and could score more. Drexler took his team to the Finals twice as the man. Pippen never accomplished that. Drexler didn't have luxury playing alongside someone who was significantly better than everyone else in the league.

mightybosstone
08-21-2014, 03:20 PM
Pippen. The guy was easily one of the five greatest perimeter defenders and five greatest point forwards in NBA history. Couple that with a solid 16/6/5 career numbers and a couple of peak 21/8/6 seasons, seven seasons with a 20+ PER, seven seasons with a WS/48 over .185, 10 All-Defensive teams, seven All-NBA teams and six championships, and Pippen is probably the greatest No. 2 in the history of the NBA.

mightybosstone
08-21-2014, 03:35 PM
Drexler > Pippen. Drexler was at least equal in non scoring aspects and could score more. Drexler took his team to the Finals twice as the man. Pippen never accomplished that. Drexler didn't have luxury playing alongside someone who was significantly better than everyone else in the league.

You actually made some really good points except for this. "Non-scoring aspects" includes defense. And as much as I loved Clyde Drexler, he was not remotely the defender that Pippen was. And really that's what makes Pippen's argument so strong. Yes, Drexler was the superior offensive player and carried more of the bulk of the scoring load than Pippen. But Pippen is probably the greatest defensive wing in NBA history.

Also, although MJ was clearly the greatest player in the league at the time and arguably the undisputed greatest player in NBA history, even he couldn't win a title without Pippen. Scottie's impact on MJ's career was incredible. Without him, I don't think we would be holding up MJ's career on such a pedestal.

JordansBulls
08-21-2014, 03:41 PM
Isiah Thomas easily for me. Led a franchise that never won to multiple titles as the leader of the squad. Best playoff performer of all the guys listed as well. Went thru 3 top 10 guys all time in the same playoffs as well.

JordansBulls
08-21-2014, 03:42 PM
You actually made some really good points except for this. "Non-scoring aspects" includes defense. And as much as I loved Clyde Drexler, he was not remotely the defender that Pippen was. And really that's what makes Pippen's argument so strong. Yes, Drexler was the superior offensive player and carried more of the bulk of the scoring load than Pippen. But Pippen is probably the greatest defensive wing in NBA history.

Also, although MJ was clearly the greatest player in the league at the time and arguably the undisputed greatest player in NBA history, even he couldn't win a title without Pippen. Scottie's impact on MJ's career was incredible. Without him, I don't think we would be holding up MJ's career on such a pedestal.

How so? Drexler on the Bulls and the Bulls win more titles than having Pippen since it took 3-4 years for Pippen to even develop.

Bruno
08-21-2014, 03:45 PM
I love how you disappear from these threads only to make a return once were thinking about putting Pippen in the top 25. this doesn't threaten Jordans standing in the slightest.

mightybosstone
08-21-2014, 03:50 PM
Isiah Thomas easily for me. Led a franchise that never won to multiple titles as the leader of the squad. Best playoff performer of all the guys listed as well. Went thru 3 top 10 guys all time in the same playoffs as well.

You know who else you can say literally all of this about? Walt Frazier. He helped bring two titles to a Knicks team that hadn't won any and hasn't won any since. He was a monster playoff performer whose Game 7 against LA in 1970 might be the greatest Game 7 by a player in NBA history. And he beat three top 10 caliber all-time players in the same postseason twice: West, Wilt and Kareem in '70 and West, Wilt and Havlicek in '73.

And Frazier's advanced numbers crush Thomas' advanced numbers. In fact, I've talked him up so much that after Pippen wins this vote, I think I'm going to start arguing my case for Frazier.

mightybosstone
08-21-2014, 03:52 PM
How so? Drexler on the Bulls and the Bulls win more titles than having Pippen since it took 3-4 years for Pippen to even develop.

That's a total hypothetical. We have no idea how Drexler and MJ would have co-existed together. And Pippen's defense was invaluable. Plus, you kind of made my argument for me. Because once Pippen developed, the Bulls started winning titles.

flea
08-21-2014, 03:55 PM
I love Pippen but Ewing is a glaring hole.

mngopher35
08-21-2014, 04:01 PM
Pippen. The guy was easily one of the five greatest perimeter defenders and five greatest point forwards in NBA history. Couple that with a solid 16/6/5 career numbers and a couple of peak 21/8/6 seasons, seven seasons with a 20+ PER, seven seasons with a WS/48 over .185, 10 All-Defensive teams, seven All-NBA teams and six championships, and Pippen is probably the greatest No. 2 in the history of the NBA.

Stockton. The guy was easily one of the 5 best distributors ever to play the game. Good career numbers 13.1/2.7/10.5 with a few peak seasons of 17/3/14 (outside of rebounds we are talking magic like). 16 seasons with a 20+ PER, 15 seasons of .185 WS (double the amount of years for pippen with these numbers). He has made 11 all nba teams and 5 defensive 2nd teams as well.

The defense isn't comparable even though Stockton was good on that end. Pippen like you said was amazing and very few in history have played that well on perimeter D. Pretty much everything else you used to evaluate Pippen though Stockton crushes him (besides 6 rings with Jordan). I do think it is a debate here but wanted to point out Stockton's numbers comparatively.

KnicksorBust
08-21-2014, 04:10 PM
You know who else you can say literally all of this about? Walt Frazier. He helped bring two titles to a Knicks team that hadn't won any and hasn't won any since. He was a monster playoff performer whose Game 7 against LA in 1970 might be the greatest Game 7 by a player in NBA history. And he beat three top 10 caliber all-time players in the same postseason twice: West, Wilt and Kareem in '70 and West, Wilt and Havlicek in '73.

And Frazier's advanced numbers crush Thomas' advanced numbers. In fact, I've talked him up so much that after Pippen wins this vote, I think I'm going to start arguing my case for Frazier.

Oh hell yes.

KnicksorBust
08-21-2014, 04:10 PM
I like Rick Barry and Bill Walton over Drexler as well.

mightybosstone
08-21-2014, 04:35 PM
I think this is that point in the top 50 where you could probably make a strong case for 10-12 different guys. Hell, I'm voting for Pippen today, but there's probably half a dozen guys I could see myself voting for on a different day with a different mindset. I wouldn't be shocked or upset by any of the following guys going here: Pippen, Frazier, Stockton, Drexler, Thomas, Barry, Baylor, Walton, Ewing or Wilkins. I certainly have my favorites in that group, but a strong case could be made for any one of those guys.

NYKalltheway
08-21-2014, 04:40 PM
might go Kobe here... oh wait, it's PSD

NYKalltheway
08-21-2014, 04:40 PM
might go Kobe here... oh wait, it's PSD :p

Bruno
08-21-2014, 04:43 PM
I think this is that point in the top 50 where you could probably make a strong case for 10-12 different guys. Hell, I'm voting for Pippen today, but there's probably half a dozen guys I could see myself voting for on a different day with a different mindset. I wouldn't be shocked or upset by any of the following guys going here: Pippen, Frazier, Stockton, Drexler, Thomas, Barry, Baylor, Walton, Ewing or Wilkins. I certainly have my favorites in that group, but a strong case could be made for any one of those guys.

dominiques all time ranking gets inflated because of his show downs with Jordan and Bird. he's the Melo of the late 80s and early 90s.

Bruno
08-21-2014, 04:44 PM
might go Kobe here... oh wait, it's PSD :p

it's 2014, not 2004. :)

WaDe03
08-21-2014, 04:48 PM
Smush Parker.

NYKalltheway
08-21-2014, 05:38 PM
it's 2014, not 2004. :)

Kobe in 2004 wouldn't sniff the top 40 :)

Raidaz4Life
08-21-2014, 07:11 PM
I don't think there is any doubt Ewing would have been far more beneficial to MJ than Pippen. The right answer here is Ewing

FlashBolt
08-21-2014, 07:16 PM
I don't think there is any doubt Ewing would have been far more beneficial to MJ than Pippen. The right answer here is Ewing

Well then, by your logic, KD should be going #24 here.

Bruno
08-21-2014, 07:31 PM
Kobe in 2004 wouldn't sniff the top 40 :)

haha, in your world.

I have opinions that the public finds farfetched too. I don't think Magic or Bird are top five.

do you think Patrick Ewing is better than Kobe?

Bruno
08-21-2014, 07:33 PM
I don't think there is any doubt Ewing would have been far more beneficial to MJ than Pippen. The right answer here is Ewing

what happens if the big dog doesn't get fed? does he stop defending the house?

how many elite center challenged MJ in the finals? the answer to that should be considering when talking about MJs ideal running mate in that era.

Bruno
08-21-2014, 07:35 PM
this has turned into a round table. I like it, I just wish the entire list could more so reflect the opinions of posters who've actually participated since #11. our top ten has been skewed by posters who haven't come back since the glory spots were selected.

SLY WILLIAMS
08-21-2014, 08:01 PM
LOL Pippen over Ewing??? Really??? Really???


The Bulls would have traded Pippen and Grant and a 1st round pick for Ewing. :)

JordansBulls
08-21-2014, 08:48 PM
You know who else you can say literally all of this about? Walt Frazier. He helped bring two titles to a Knicks team that hadn't won any and hasn't won any since. He was a monster playoff performer whose Game 7 against LA in 1970 might be the greatest Game 7 by a player in NBA history. And he beat three top 10 caliber all-time players in the same postseason twice: West, Wilt and Kareem in '70 and West, Wilt and Havlicek in '73.

And Frazier's advanced numbers crush Thomas' advanced numbers. In fact, I've talked him up so much that after Pippen wins this vote, I think I'm going to start arguing my case for Frazier.
We should be giving credit to Willis Reed though, he won league and finals mvp same year.

JordansBulls
08-21-2014, 08:49 PM
I love how you disappear from these threads only to make a return once were thinking about putting Pippen in the top 25. this doesn't threaten Jordans standing in the slightest.

Huh?? I have been voting in nearly every thread.

mightybosstone
08-21-2014, 10:43 PM
We should be giving credit to Willis Reed though, he won league and finals mvp same year.

He does deserve credit. And I would put Reed in my top 40. But as much respect as I have for Reed, he missed most of Game 5 against an extremely talented Lakers team because of an injury. Although he played the first few minutes of Game 7 to help give the Knicks a boost, it was Frazier that led the Knicks to wins in Games 5 and 7.

Raidaz4Life
08-22-2014, 03:39 AM
Well then, by your logic, KD should be going #24 here.

I don't think Durant would have been more beneficial to MJ, but by the end of his career, yes Durant will be a top 25 player of all time and ranked higher than both Ewing and Pippen. Not sure what your point was.

NYKalltheway
08-22-2014, 04:44 AM
haha, in your world.

I have opinions that the public finds farfetched too. I don't think Magic or Bird are top five.

do you think Patrick Ewing is better than Kobe?

Same level probably. I value talented bigs more than talented guards so I'd take Ewing if I had to pick one of them to start a team but it's pretty much a wash. Both are around the 22-27 mark of best players ever.
If it was just a list, I'd probably put Kobe over Ewing by 2-3 spots at most.

NYKalltheway
08-22-2014, 04:53 AM
Pippen gets overrated a lot here. Great player but that doesn't make him a top 25 player. There's no way he can be rated higher than Gervin, Drexler, Wilkins, BAYLOR, Frazier, Barry, McHale, ISIAH THOMAS and a lot of others that aren't in the list.

Sure, Jordan needed him. That doesn't make Pippen one of the greatest 25 ever. Pippen got an easy ride offensively since everyone was focusing on Jordan. Defensively he's one of the best wings.

If Pippen's defense puts him in the top 25, then Russell's defense should make him top 3.

mightybosstone
08-22-2014, 09:59 AM
Pippen gets overrated a lot here. Great player but that doesn't make him a top 25 player. There's no way he can be rated higher than Gervin, Drexler, Wilkins, BAYLOR, Frazier, Barry, McHale, ISIAH THOMAS and a lot of others that aren't in the list.

Sure, Jordan needed him. That doesn't make Pippen one of the greatest 25 ever. Pippen got an easy ride offensively since everyone was focusing on Jordan. Defensively he's one of the best wings.

If Pippen's defense puts him in the top 25, then Russell's defense should make him top 3.

I don't agree with this. Pippen was a far better offensive player than Russell. And if Russell is considered by many to be the greatest defensive big of all time, then Pippen probably deserves that title for perimeter players. Obviously defensive big men have more of an impact on the game than defensive perimeter guys, but the fact that Russell is always talked about as a top 10-12 guy is a testament to how incredible a defender he was. Because offensively, he was fairly mediocre.

As far as the other guys you mentioned on this list, I'm not doubting that you can make a case for them over Pippen. You totally can. But don't tell me that there's "no way" Pippen can be rated higher than those guys, especially McHale, who was clearly a No. 2 himself for the 80s Celtics teams.

The question really appears to be whether or not you value defense and postseason success more or offensive production and flashy individual numbers. Because guys like Baylor, Wilkins and Gervin scored a whole lot of points, but didn't play much defense and did a whole lotta nothing in the playoffs. Give me a great No. 2 who played elite defense like Pippen, McHale or Stockton over an elite No. 1 offensive threat that was a sieve on defense.

JAZZNC
08-22-2014, 10:08 AM
Why any pg ahead of pippen
What was Pippen the best at in the history if the NBA?

mightybosstone
08-22-2014, 10:16 AM
You know, the more I think about it, the more I just can't justify seeing someone like Gervin or Wilkins going anytime soon. I get that they were elite scorers of their eras and that scoring has always been a premium in this league. But what the hell else did they do? They were both terrible defenders. Neither of them were good playmakers as Gervin boasted a negative AST/TO ratio in his career and Wilkins' was essentially 1/1. And neither guy made it past the first round despite a combined 28 years in the league.

They were both pretty good rebounders and pretty damn efficient in terms of scoring. But as other posters have already mentioned, what separates those guys from Carmelo Anthony, Adrian Dantley or Alex English? Hell, I'd throw Iverson, McGrady and Vince Carter into that mix, too. I think I'd rather have guys multi-faceted guys like James Worthy or Paul Pierce over the one-trick-pony scorers like Gervin or Wilkins.

And I'm not making that argument against Baylor or Drexler. Both of those guys were competent defenders and solid distributors who had legitimate all-around games and experienced some level of success in the postseason. But you can't say the same thing about Gervin or Wilkins, and I see no reason why they should come anywhere near the top 30.

mightybosstone
08-22-2014, 10:19 AM
What was Pippen the best at in the history if the NBA?

Possibly perimeter defense. And he's probably one of the 5-10 best point forwards in the history of the game as well.

NYKalltheway
08-22-2014, 10:32 AM
The question really appears to be whether or not you value defense and postseason success more or offensive production and flashy individual numbers. Because guys like Baylor, Wilkins and Gervin scored a whole lot of points, but didn't play much defense and did a whole lotta nothing in the playoffs. Give me a great No. 2 who played elite defense like Pippen, McHale or Stockton over an elite No. 1 offensive threat that was a sieve on defense.

Give those first 3 guys any of the last 3 guys and you'd arguing they are GOAT. This is why basketball is an amazing sport and why such basic analyses are quite childish.

NYKalltheway
08-22-2014, 10:34 AM
Neither Nique nor Gervin were "terrible" at defending. If anything, Nique had more of a defensive impact than Durant has. Underrated as hell just because he was flashy in a time where flashy was enough to sell.

SLY WILLIAMS
08-22-2014, 10:39 AM
I really can not believe how little respect Patrick gets on PSD. Choosing Pippen over Patrick would be like choosing Robin over Batman in my opinion. The Knicks played some suffocating defense and Patrick was a huge part of that. Patrick was a 23 point 10 rebound 2.7 block guy that shot over 50% from the field and near 75% from the line for his career as a Knick. Those kind of players do not grow on trees.

mightybosstone
08-22-2014, 11:09 AM
Give those first 3 guys any of the last 3 guys and you'd arguing they are GOAT. This is why basketball is an amazing sport and why such basic analyses are quite childish.

:laugh:

Baylor had Jerry West and Wilt Chamberlain. Prime Wilkins got two really solid years out of a just-past-his-prime Moses Malone. And Gervin may not have gotten to play with an all-time great in his career, but he did get three pretty solid years with Artis Gilmore, who is probably a top 80-100 guy and a Hall of Famer. Bottom line, they had their chances for success with enough talent around them to succeed, but they failed to capitalize on those chances.

No way would we EVER be arguing that one of those three guys was as good as MJ or Kareem. And to even suggest otherwise is ridiculously naive.

mightybosstone
08-22-2014, 11:16 AM
Neither Nique nor Gervin were "terrible" at defending. If anything, Nique had more of a defensive impact than Durant has. Underrated as hell just because he was flashy in a time where flashy was enough to sell.

I'll admit that I'm speaking from a point of ignorance when it comes to how those guys played defense, because they clearly were before my time. But everything I've ever read about those guys and the numbers I've seen would suggest that they were below average defenders. And Durant has become a pretty damn good perimeter defender the last couple of seasons.

I've gotta ask, though. Were you actually alive to watch Gervin's prime? If so, you'd have to be well into your 40s.

Chronz
08-22-2014, 11:53 AM
Give those first 3 guys any of the last 3 guys and you'd arguing they are GOAT. This is why basketball is an amazing sport and why such basic analyses are quite childish.

Why is that? The only thing childish is someone giving an opinion with no backing whatsoever. Which is fine, just dont call anyone else out for providing more info than you do.


Neither Nique nor Gervin were "terrible" at defending. If anything, Nique had more of a defensive impact than Durant has. Underrated as hell just because he was flashy in a time where flashy was enough to sell.

Gervin was absolutely horrible defensively. Nique was pretty below average for most of his career.

Chronz
08-22-2014, 12:15 PM
Frazier and Barry need more consideration, the more I think about it the more I like them over Pippen.

KnicksorBust
08-22-2014, 01:18 PM
I really can not believe how little respect Patrick gets on PSD. Choosing Pippen over Patrick would be like choosing Robin over Batman in my opinion. The Knicks played some suffocating defense and Patrick was a huge part of that. Patrick was a 23 point 10 rebound 2.7 block guy that shot over 50% from the field and near 75% from the line for his career as a Knick. Those kind of players do not grow on trees.

How many current players are averaging 20ppg / 8rpg/ 6apg / 2spg / 1bpg?


Frazier and Barry need more consideration, the more I think about it the more I like them over Pippen.

Curious, do you give Barry's ABA numbers any credit here? I basically throw them out.

NYKalltheway
08-22-2014, 01:55 PM
I'll admit that I'm speaking from a point of ignorance when it comes to how those guys played defense, because they clearly were before my time. But everything I've ever read about those guys and the numbers I've seen would suggest that they were below average defenders. And Durant has become a pretty damn good perimeter defender the last couple of seasons.

I've gotta ask, though. Were you actually alive to watch Gervin's prime? If so, you'd have to be well into your 40s.

Ever heard of youtube and VCR tapes? The first is really big since 2007 and the other was quite popular in the 90s. They tend to record visual moments that one did not witness among other things. Watching older NBA games is also a possibility using those methods :p

NYKalltheway
08-22-2014, 01:57 PM
Curious, do you give Barry's ABA numbers any credit here? I basically throw them out.

That's what I do with Lebron's numbers, too. ABA, modern NBA.. same thing.

KnicksorBust
08-22-2014, 02:07 PM
That's what I do with Lebron's numbers, too. ABA, modern NBA.. same thing.

The ABA was an inferior professional basketball league that was falling apart until the ABA-NBA merger. The modern NBA has the best players in the world. Not seeing the comparison. :)

Also, still waiting for that list of current players that are averaging 20ppg / 8rpg/ 6apg / 2spg / 1bpg?

sixers247
08-22-2014, 02:21 PM
Westbrook did 27-8-8-2 thats better lol.

Chronz
08-22-2014, 02:24 PM
That's what I do with Lebron's numbers, too. ABA, modern NBA.. same thing.

It wouldn't be based on any sort of statistical analysis, so who would care about what you do with numbers??

No offense I hope, I typically enjoy the alternative point of view you bring, I just dont care for your distaste of others using objective analysis to back their opinions.

Chronz
08-22-2014, 02:51 PM
Curious, do you give Barry's ABA numbers any credit here? I basically throw them out.

Why?

Its not like they're Euro-League numbers and even those dont get thrown out, I dont know of any translation/projection system for the ABA but Im sure we could come up with anything to at least give them some sort of credence in these debates.

Barry himself credits the ABA for improving his game and making him a better "All-Around player". From what I can tell, the ABA was really only a middling league in its infant stages. When Barry first defected, he was on a whole other world against them, as evidenced by his career high rates in just about everything, but its hard to blame him for doing what we would expect of a truly great player in such an environment. He wasn't a dramatically different player statistically when he came back to the NBA. Similar phenomena happened with Gervin. By the time of the merger, both leagues had enough talent at the top to provide great competition, but that merger really strengthened the league and brought forth an era of parity we've never seen again.

Chronz
08-22-2014, 02:55 PM
Westbrook did 27-8-8-2 thats better lol.

Agreed, Westbrook is going to finish higher than anyone here when hes done IMO.

sixers247
08-22-2014, 02:57 PM
Agreed, Westbrook is going to finish higher than anyone here when hes done IMO.

Well now I wouldn't go nearly that far haha I was just bored at work and thought I'd see if anyone averaged what he asked. DO you really think he is top 25 all time or am I missing the sarcasm haha.

SLY WILLIAMS
08-22-2014, 03:06 PM
How many current players are averaging 20ppg / 8rpg/ 6apg / 2spg / 1bpg?


Those are not Pippens career numbers nor his numbers in his time as a Bull so why do you ask?

I posted Patrick's numbers for his 15 seasons as a Knick not his best season.

Pippens numbers

Career (17 seasons): 16.1ppg-6.4rpg-5.2apg-2.0spg-.8bpg.47%FG-70%ft
12 Seasons with Bulls: 17.7ppg-6.7rpg-5.3apg-2.1spg-.9bpg.48%FG-69%ft

flea
08-22-2014, 03:06 PM
You must be joking with Westbrook that high.

NYKalltheway
08-22-2014, 03:10 PM
It wouldn't be based on any sort of statistical analysis, so who would care about what you do with numbers??

No offense I hope, I typically enjoy the alternative point of view you bring, I just dont care for your distaste of others using objective analysis to back their opinions.

Can you tell me the difference between the former ABA and the modern NBA except the fact that the NBA has many foreigners today?
It's not as if the ABA players were crap or anything, lots of them still outperformed the NBA players after the merger.

Now, what objective analysis did I show distate for? Was there even an analysis?

Chronz
08-22-2014, 03:11 PM
Well now I wouldn't go nearly that far haha I was just bored at work and thought I'd see if anyone averaged what he asked. DO you really think he is top 25 all time or am I missing the sarcasm haha.
Why not?

sixers247
08-22-2014, 03:13 PM
Why not?

http://img.pandawhale.com/65402-I-feel-like-Im-taking-crazy-pi-6DFl.gif

You want me to go in depth as to why Westbrook is not Top 25?? lol I mean I really hope your messing around.

Chronz
08-22-2014, 03:14 PM
Can you tell me the difference between the former ABA and the modern NBA except the fact that the NBA has many foreigners today?
Only if you can show me any sort of statistical translation. It doesn't even have to be up to APBR sniff, just ANYTHING would be a welcomed sight at this point.


It's not as if the ABA players were crap or anything, lots of them still outperformed the NBA players after the merger.

Never said they were, in fact, I go on to agree with this sentiment.


Now, what objective analysis did I show distate for? Was there even an analysis?
Yes. Far more than what you have provided in every single rebuttal.

Chronz
08-22-2014, 03:17 PM
http://img.pandawhale.com/65402-I-feel-like-Im-taking-crazy-pi-6DFl.gif

You want me to go in depth as to why Westbrook is not Top 25?? lol I mean I really hope your messing around.

In depth? You can give any sort of rationale you want, anything is better than nothing. And the correct question to ask is "why Westbrook does not have Top 25 POTENTIAL."

NYKalltheway
08-22-2014, 03:19 PM
Only if you can show me any sort of statistical translation. It doesn't even have to be up to APBR sniff, just ANYTHING would be a welcomed sight at this point.

So even if I show you 20-30 games and the only thing that will distinguish the games will be the picture quality, you still want "stats"? Come on, it's not baseball.
Watch any ABA game and you'll be asking where Lebron, Durant, Melo, Westbrook, Wade, Kobe and the rest of them are...
The ABA failed because it's exactly like the post-2005 NBA. The NBA does not fail because it carries the names of Jordan, Magic, Shaq, Bird, Wilt, Russell, West, Oscar etc



Never said they were, in fact, I go on to agree with this sentiment.

That's the impression almost everyone has on the ABA. That it's some sort of league of mediocre players where 2-3 stars played and that the ABA should be removed from basketball history and those kind of things.



Yes. Far more than what you have provided in every single rebuttal.

What provision can I make when the response is "stats"? I'm here to talk about basketball not maths.
And I've never seen anything close to an analysis. I do statistical analyses among other things for a living and if I turned up at work with what you call "analysis", I'd be without a job the next second :D

Presenting numbers is not an analysis, it shows a lack of the ability to discuss about a subject.

sixers247
08-22-2014, 03:21 PM
In depth? You can give any sort of rationale you want, anything is better than nothing. And the correct question to ask is "why Westbrook does not have Top 25 POTENTIAL."

Well he would have to do a hell of alot better for a long *** period of time to get this high. If he plays with Durant his whole career he will be second fiddle and then they would have to win a couple championships. I live Westy more than most and this is just way to premature to put him this high. Carrer 20-5-7 player who could be more efficient and turns the ball over a ton. Sure I guess if your argument is "why Westbrook does not have Top 25 POTENTIAL." then you could win, but then i could name like 25 othe rplayers under those absurd assumptions.

flea
08-22-2014, 03:45 PM
Westbrook is an average defender who is very undisciplined, turns the ball over a lot, isn't very efficient, and requires 30%+ USG in order to accrue his stats. He's a chucker. If he didn't play with Durant people would think of him like they do Monta Ellis.

KnicksorBust
08-22-2014, 04:58 PM
Why?

Its not like they're Euro-League numbers and even those dont get thrown out, I dont know of any translation/projection system for the ABA but Im sure we could come up with anything to at least give them some sort of credence in these debates.

Barry himself credits the ABA for improving his game and making him a better "All-Around player". From what I can tell, the ABA was really only a middling league in its infant stages. When Barry first defected, he was on a whole other world against them, as evidenced by his career high rates in just about everything, but its hard to blame him for doing what we would expect of a truly great player in such an environment. He wasn't a dramatically different player statistically when he came back to the NBA. Similar phenomena happened with Gervin. By the time of the merger, both leagues had enough talent at the top to provide great competition, but that merger really strengthened the league and brought forth an era of parity we've never seen again.

His scoring efficiency plummeted in the NBA. He was Kevin Durant in the ABA and Allen Iverson in the NBA.


Those are not Pippens career numbers nor his numbers in his time as a Bull so why do you ask?

I posted Patrick's numbers for his 15 seasons as a Knick not his best season.

Pippens numbers

Career (17 seasons): 16.1ppg-6.4rpg-5.2apg-2.0spg-.8bpg.47%FG-70%ft
12 Seasons with Bulls: 17.7ppg-6.7rpg-5.3apg-2.1spg-.9bpg.48%FG-69%ft

I'm looking at Pippen's prime.


Can you tell me the difference between the former ABA and the modern NBA except the fact that the NBA has many foreigners today?

Well that's easy. The ABA was an inferior basketball league that shared the best players in the world with another professional league. The modern NBA has a significantly higher portion of the world's best players than the ABA could ever claim.

NYKalltheway
08-22-2014, 05:25 PM
Well that's easy. The ABA was an inferior basketball league that shared the best players in the world with another professional league. The modern NBA has a significantly higher portion of the world's best players than the ABA could ever claim.

Extremely easy. And almost all modern NBA players have no clue of how to play in the post or how to use their feet correctly. It stopped being basketball without the fundamentals, it's just an athletes show now with a small touch of proper basketball. How about that? How am I going to rate a player who excels in something that is not really basketball and compare him to all time greats?

SLY WILLIAMS
08-22-2014, 05:50 PM
I'm looking at Pippen's prime.


In Patrick's prime he was good for around 26ppg-11.5rpg-3.3bpg-52%fg-1spg

Patrick's best season was probably in 88-89

28.6ppg-10.9rpg-4.0bpg-1.0spg-2.2apg-56%fg-78%ft

Patricks career numbers are better. Patrick's prime numbers are also better. But stats aside Patrick was just a much bigger force on the court in my opinion. In fact it is not even close in my opinion.

flea
08-22-2014, 05:53 PM
In Patrick's prime he was good for around 26ppg-11.5rpg-3.3bpg-52%fg-1spg

Patrick's best season was probably in 88-89

28.6ppg-10.9rpg-4.0bpg-1.0spg-2.2apg-56%fg-78%ft

Patricks career numbers are better. Patrick's prime numbers are also better. But stats aside Patrick was just a much bigger force on the court in my opinion. In fact it is not even close in my opinion.

Agreed. I mean, for over half his career Ewing was a better shooter than Pippen. That's a center shooting the ball better than a wing. And even if you want to be conservative, Ewing defense was at least as impactful. We're talking about an easy top 10 defender, some say top 5.

todu82
08-22-2014, 06:36 PM
Baylor.

Chronz
08-22-2014, 07:04 PM
His scoring efficiency plummeted in the NBA. He was Kevin Durant in the ABA and Allen Iverson in the NBA.

His PER/WS rates stayed in line, those barometers take into consideration the league environment, he wound up having some better seasons in the NBA than he did his final ABA years.


Westbrook is an average defender who is very undisciplined, turns the ball over a lot, isn't very efficient, and requires 30%+ USG in order to accrue his stats. He's a chucker. If he didn't play with Durant people would think of him like they do Monta Ellis.
More like a durable Iverson. Hes already got several big playoff games under his belt at a very young age.





Well he would have to do a hell of alot better for a long *** period of time to get this high.
Helluva lot better? Based on what? You yourself suggested his current line surpasses that of many contenders already in question. Imagine that kind of production for many more years, the All-NBA accolades/All-Star births that accompany that. Then you have the ultimate variable, team success, its not out of the picture that he can win a chip in the oncoming years so its not like its a stretch of the imagination.


If he plays with Durant his whole career he will be second fiddle and then they would have to win a couple championships. I live Westy more than most and this is just way to premature to put him this high.
What do you mean premature? Nobody is suggesting that hes there already, this is twice I've tried to reiterate this fact to you.


Carrer 20-5-7 player who could be more efficient and turns the ball over a ton. Sure I guess if your argument is "why Westbrook does not have Top 25 POTENTIAL." then you could win, but then i could name like 25 othe rplayers under those absurd assumptions.
I highly doubt you could and I think you underrate his efficiency, especially given his overall output.



So even if I show you 20-30 games and the only thing that will distinguish the games will be the picture quality, you still want "stats"? Come on, it's not baseball.
Ur still not getting it. This is what you posted:

That's what I do with Lebron's numbers, too. ABA, modern NBA.. same thing.

I've underlined the key word. YOU brought up numbers, I merely exposed why nobody would care what you do with NUMBERS as it wouldn't be based on any sort of quantifiable analysis, which is the entire point of statistics.


Watch any ABA game and you'll be asking where Lebron, Durant, Melo, Westbrook, Wade, Kobe and the rest of them are...
The ABA failed because it's exactly like the post-2005 NBA. The NBA does not fail because it carries the names of Jordan, Magic, Shaq, Bird, Wilt, Russell, West, Oscar etc
Nice story but the league failing had more to do with lack of exposure and interest. Stern came in and fixed that right away, that and the Magic/Bird revolution. Todays players are leaning on the interest built from the past.



That's the impression almost everyone has on the ABA. That it's some sort of league of mediocre players where 2-3 stars played and that the ABA should be removed from basketball history and those kind of things.
It was diluted league, not like the NBA today. Stylistically the ABA resembled todays NBA more than the NBA did at the time, simply by virtue of having an actual 3pt shot, but with the advent of complex zone defenses, nothing really resembles basketball today 100%.



What provision can I make when the response is "stats"? I'm here to talk about basketball not maths.
I would try not bringing up numbers then.


And I've never seen anything close to an analysis. I do statistical analyses among other things for a living and if I turned up at work with what you call "analysis", I'd be without a job the next second :D

Presenting numbers is not an analysis, it shows a lack of the ability to discuss about a subject.
Numbers represent the objective starting point where you're free to discuss whatever it is you know, besides I dont see how giving an opinion with no objective backing is a better alternative.

KnicksorBust
08-22-2014, 08:12 PM
In Patrick's prime he was good for around 26ppg-11.5rpg-3.3bpg-52%fg-1spg

Patrick's best season was probably in 88-89

28.6ppg-10.9rpg-4.0bpg-1.0spg-2.2apg-56%fg-78%ft

Patricks career numbers are better. Patrick's prime numbers are also better. But stats aside Patrick was just a much bigger force on the court in my opinion. In fact it is not even close in my opinion.

That's great but it has nothing to do with my question.

bagwell368
08-22-2014, 08:48 PM
Agreed. I mean, for over half his career Ewing was a better shooter than Pippen. That's a center shooting the ball better than a wing.

What's strange about that? Centers have in general better FG% than wing 3's.


And even if you want to be conservative, Ewing defense was at least as impactful. We're talking about an easy top 10 defender, some say top 5.

Centers are in position to dominate games defensively much more than others (except some PF's). Instead, ask this, where does Pippen rate all time on D for a 3, and Ewing for a 5?

flea
08-22-2014, 09:24 PM
What's strange about that? Centers have in general better FG% than wing 3's.

I don't mean FG%, I mean shooting. Ewing was a better shooter than Pippen until about midway through Pippen's career when he developed a respectable 3 point shot. He was still not much of a midrange threat. Unlike Ewing, who was one of the best shooters at his position in history.


Centers are in position to dominate games defensively much more than others (except some PF's). Instead, ask this, where does Pippen rate all time on D for a 3, and Ewing for a 5?

I meant Ewing is a top 10 defender of all positions. Yes bigs have a bigger impact, but that's why there are mostly bigs in the top 10. It was, and still is, a big man's game.

SLY WILLIAMS
08-22-2014, 10:47 PM
What's strange about that? Centers have in general better FG% than wing 3's.



Centers are in position to dominate games defensively much more than others (except some PF's). Instead, ask this, where does Pippen rate all time on D for a 3, and Ewing for a 5?

Where does Pippen rank all time offensively?

Did Pippen ever dominate your Celtics in the playoffs like Patrick did?

mightybosstone
08-22-2014, 11:40 PM
Ever heard of youtube and VCR tapes? The first is really big since 2007 and the other was quite popular in the 90s. They tend to record visual moments that one did not witness among other things. Watching older NBA games is also a possibility using those methods :p

Umm... Okay..... So, in all seriousness, how much actual footage of George Gervin and Dominique Wilkins have you actually watched? Because if you're using Youtube as your point of reference, you're essentially just watching highlights. That is in no way shape or form a legitimate enough sample size to judge an entire player's career.

Mano
08-23-2014, 02:56 AM
Ewing over Pip!

Pip had MJ...
Ewing never had anyone like MJ to play with most of their career..

Ewing carried the Knicks...
MJ carried the Bulls... and Pippen..

NYKalltheway
08-23-2014, 08:22 AM
Umm... Okay..... So, in all seriousness, how much actual footage of George Gervin and Dominique Wilkins have you actually watched? Because if you're using Youtube as your point of reference, you're essentially just watching highlights. That is in no way shape or form a legitimate enough sample size to judge an entire player's career.


I'm talking about FULL GAMES on youtube.

I've watched over 200 games of Dominique Wilkins and around 50 of Gervin's.

D-Leethal
08-23-2014, 12:57 PM
Ewing doesn't get enough love around here (surprise surprise). Guy was a warrior and MJ's biggest threat year after year - which has been admitted by both MJ and Phil. He did this with John Starks as his #2. He would have multiple chips if he had a legitimate all star by his side year after year. Quarterbacked one of (if not the) most vicious defensive teams in NBA history. And nobody had more heart than that dude.

mightybosstone
08-23-2014, 02:34 PM
I'm talking about FULL GAMES on youtube.

I've watched over 200 games of Dominique Wilkins and around 50 of Gervin's.

Why? For what purpose?

flea
08-23-2014, 02:45 PM
I like watching classic games. It was a better brand of basketball, for the most part, before modern rules. Thankfully college still retains some of that, instead of this finesse-type dunk or kickout contests.

NYKalltheway
08-23-2014, 04:00 PM
Why? For what purpose?

Why not?
When I like some teams or players, I might get obsessed with them and look more into them. There are 1-2 cases where I "fell in love" with two players but they ended up being busts. Hence, I wanna have watched at least 20 full games of a player to have a proper opinion on them. Otherwise what's the point?
The only players it's quite hard to do that with is the players from the 50s and early 60s as there's not much footage available. This is why I'm not sure where to place Russell, Havlicek, Sam Jones and Tom Heinsohn among others. And Mikan obviously.
The player I wish I've seen more of is Bob Petitt. Haven't managed to find a full game of his. I think the modern player he is more similar to is Carmello Anthony though he had a preference of playing in the low post. Also had a knack of chasing the ball when it was on the air after a missed shot, so he had inflated offensive rebounding numbers. Very determined player, the type I like (wish Melo was more like him lol, he could have been)

I caught a few of Nique's games live* as well.

*actually on re-runs but like 10-12 hours later or so :D


I like watching classic games. It was a better brand of basketball, for the most part, before modern rules. Thankfully college still retains some of that, instead of this finesse-type dunk or kickout contests.

you can watch European basketball and the international competitions (World Cup starts soon, there's a European cup every two years and there's also the Olympics :) )

flea
08-23-2014, 04:41 PM
Nah I like college ball best. Only a few months to go!

FlashBolt
08-24-2014, 03:20 PM
Nah I like college ball best. Only a few months to go!

Pretty sure there is a college basketball forum.

flea
08-24-2014, 03:25 PM
On this site? There might as well not be. I come here to talk NFL/MLB/NBA only.

JAZZNC
08-24-2014, 04:45 PM
Possibly perimeter defense. And he's probably one of the 5-10 best point forwards in the history of the game as well.
Stockton is possibly the best defensive PG over the course of a career. He is also the best passer in the history of basketball. He holds all time records for assists and steals (not that you don't know that). He was super clutch too along with being super efficient. He truly made everyone on his team better (something that gets overlooked too much IMO) and he was a true pro. I have said it before, listen to what the guys that played with and against him have to say about the guy.
In no way should Pippen be getting consideration over Stockton in any kind of all time list.

flea
08-24-2014, 05:04 PM
I agree to an extent, Jazz. The argument for Pippen over Ewing by some around here is that Pippen was better all-time at his position than Ewing. By that logic, though, Stockton should already have gone (and way ahead of guys like Robinson, Pettit, and Malone). My criteria is who was the best at winning, taking into account peak as well as career. Ewing cleans up on that sort of metric - and yes, a big part of that is because he was a 2-way center.

JAZZNC
08-24-2014, 05:20 PM
I can see that argument for Ewing but not Pippen. I would still go with Stockton over both but thats just me. It IMO would be a travesty to not have the best PG ever in the top 25.
And Stocktons peak is very impressive at 17/14/3/3 and well over 50% shooting for a guard. Dude was a badass and gets overlooked by way too many people especially the new generation of fans that just think he was a short white guy that lucked up playing with Malone.

SLY WILLIAMS
08-24-2014, 06:05 PM
I can see that argument for Ewing but not Pippen. I would still go with Stockton over both but thats just me. It IMO would be a travesty to not have the best PG ever in the top 25.
And Stocktons peak is very impressive at 17/14/3/3 and well over 50% shooting for a guard. Dude was a badass and gets overlooked by way too many people especially the new generation of fans that just think he was a short white guy that lucked up playing with Malone.

Karl could have been around a 20ppg allstar no matter who he played with BUT in my opinion John Stockton made him a top 4-10 player in the league when he played.

KnicksorBust
08-24-2014, 06:31 PM
Possibly perimeter defense. And he's probably one of the 5-10 best point forwards in the history of the game as well.
Stockton is possibly the best defensive PG over the course of a career. He is also the best passer in the history of basketball. He holds all time records for assists and steals (not that you don't know that). He was super clutch too along with being super efficient. He truly made everyone on his team better (something that gets overlooked too much IMO) and he was a true pro. I have said it before, listen to what the guys that played with and against him have to say about the guy.
In no way should Pippen be getting consideration over Stockton in any kind of all time list.

stock cant sniff payton / alvin robertson/ moncrief / etc. defensively.

bagwell368
08-24-2014, 10:26 PM
stock cant sniff payton / alvin robertson/ moncrief / etc. defensively.

x2

bagwell368
08-24-2014, 10:40 PM
MJ's biggest threat year after year - which has been admitted by both MJ and Phil.

WTF? The Celts, Pistons, Lakers covered a good early segment of Ewings career. I never saw Ewing's team pushing the Bulls out of the playoffs - did you?


He did this with John Starks as his #2. He would have multiple chips if he had a legitimate all star by his side year after year.

Some years it was Oakley, Jackson, Starks. Mason, Harper also kicked in some nice years.


And nobody had more heart than that dude.

Sorry, fan boy crap meter just went off. No bloody way.

NYKalltheway
08-25-2014, 04:50 AM
Ewing played for good TEAMS, but never had a teammate he could rely on like Jordan had Pippen and later on Harper/Kukoc and even Rodman defensively. Like Magic had Worthy, like Bird had McHale and Parish and so on. You can't really punish him for that. Reggie Miller falls in a similar category. He had Mark Jackson after some point but no one was really able to perform at the top stage like the others.

I can't think of many players who haven't played for good teams. But some had better teammates than others. And those usually moved further on during spring. You can't punish a player for not having a FO capable of surrounding him with better talent. And you need to stop overrating players who have a capable FO that surrounds them with great talent. Otherwise this stops being a basketball discussion and it's just a popularity contest with some numbers thrown out once in a while (which is what this has been so far).

tredigs
08-25-2014, 05:30 AM
This is going to be one of the first All Time NBA lists created with Pat Ewing in the Top 25. Noice.

NYKalltheway
08-25-2014, 05:41 AM
This is going to be one of the first All Time NBA lists created with Pat Ewing in the Top 25. Noice.

And only one of Baylor, Drexler, Isiah Thomas, Frazier and Stockton will make the top 25 while Lebron and Kobe are in the top 10. Lol.