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ManRam
08-19-2014, 10:00 AM
Before we get into it...

There was a lot of controversy with this last poll. There was a lot of activity from a dupe (or multiple dupes) leading to inflated votes for Patrick Ewing. I think a mod corrected the poll, but regardless it was an issue.

Because of this, I'm going to enact this rule (even though I didn't want to because it just adds more things for me to do):

Only votes made from users with over 100 posts will count.

Anyways, back to normality...


Voting for #22 has concluded and PSD's Official #22 NBA Player of all time is....

Dwyane Wade

Voting

Dwyane Wade 18
Patrick Ewing 13ish
John Stockton 5
John Havlicek 3
Scottie Pippen 3
Elgin Baylor 3
Isiah Thomas 2
Clyde Drexler 2
Rick Barry 1


Clyde Frazier 0
George Gervin 0
Kevin McHale 0
George Mikan 0
Chris Paul 0
Bob Cousy 0
Kevin Durant 0
Bill Walton 0


The List:

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?871758-PSD-s-Top-50-List-of-the-Greatest-NBA-Players-of-All-Time&p=28837457#post28837457

Per the usual, vote, explain and nominate.

Jason Kidd has been added to the poll.

ManningToTyree
08-19-2014, 10:06 AM
Now I think it's reasonable for Ewing to come off the board. Pippen isn't a bad choice either

sixers247
08-19-2014, 10:10 AM
Now I think it's reasonable for Ewing to come off the board. Pippen isn't a bad choice either

How Ewing now?

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/b/elgin_baylor_vs_patrick_ewing.htm

ManningToTyree
08-19-2014, 12:13 PM
Now I think it's reasonable for Ewing to come off the board. Pippen isn't a bad choice either

How Ewing now?

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/b/elgin_baylor_vs_patrick_ewing.htm

Ewing was the superior defender, much more efficient and played against the greatest era of centers the game has ever seen

ThuglifeJ
08-19-2014, 12:16 PM
Kidd.

ThuglifeJ
08-19-2014, 12:20 PM
Ew at Dwayne Wade. I just don't like sloppy players getting highest of recognitions. Besides Shaq. There's still some players who have mastered the game not picked. Wade is 50% slop 50% whistles. Clearly his game is not very polished when you see his decline he's having and will have.

KnicksorBust
08-19-2014, 12:24 PM
John Havlicek.

13x allstar.
Averaged about 29-9-7.
6x nba champion
1x finals mvp
all-defensive teams

Love his two-way game.

mightybosstone
08-19-2014, 12:25 PM
Havlicek, guys. Hondo was one of the greatest two way players of all-time and was the No. 1 offensive threat for multiple championship teams with completely different rosters. Baylor played in the same era and never won a single title with more than his fair share of talent around him. And I don't really want to get into the Ewing argument again.

Here are some of Havlicek's highlights:
Career 21/6/5 player in 16 seasons and 1,270 games with one team
Career 22/7/5 player in the playoffs in 172 games
13x All-Star
11x All-NBA (four 1st, seven 2nd)
8 consecutive All-Defensive teams (would have had more, but award wasn't created until 68-69)
8x NBA Champion between 63 and 76 (including multiple titles as a No. 1)
12th in career minutes played
16th in career points scored
28th in career assists
13th in career DWS
34th in career WS

His advanced statistics admittedly are not that impressive compared to other guys on the list, but the overall resume speaks for itself. He might be the best two-way player still left on the board and he accomplished more and performed as well in the postseason as anyone still left.

Chronz
08-19-2014, 12:26 PM
Going Baylor or Hondo here. Unless theres a good argument for someone else. McHale maybe...

sixers247
08-19-2014, 12:37 PM
John Havlicek.

13x allstar.
Averaged about 29-9-7.
6x nba champion
1x finals mvp
all-defensive teams

Love his two-way game.

Who stats are those? He averaged like 21-6-4

sixers247
08-19-2014, 12:38 PM
Havlicek, guys. Hondo was one of the greatest two way players of all-time and was the No. 1 offensive threat for multiple championship teams with completely different rosters. Baylor played in the same era and never won a single title with more than his fair share of talent around him. And I don't really want to get into the Ewing argument again.

Here are some of Havlicek's highlights:
Career 21/6/5 player in 16 seasons and 1,270 games with one team
Career 22/7/5 player in the playoffs in 172 games
13x All-Star
11x All-NBA (four 1st, seven 2nd)
8 consecutive All-Defensive teams (would have had more, but award wasn't created until 68-69)
8x NBA Champion between 63 and 76 (including multiple titles as a No. 1)
12th in career minutes played
16th in career points scored
28th in career assists
13th in career DWS
34th in career WS

His advanced statistics admittedly are not that impressive compared to other guys on the list, but the overall resume speaks for itself. He might be the best two-way player still left on the board and he accomplished more and performed as well in the postseason as anyone still left.

Very good points. I am fine with Hondo here also. I think him and Baylor should be the next two.

NYKalltheway
08-19-2014, 12:44 PM
Here are some of Havlicek's highlights:
13x All-Star
who were the other choices? aka rivals at the same positions.



11x All-NBA (four 1st, seven 2nd)

see above



8 consecutive All-Defensive teams (would have had more, but award wasn't created until 68-69)

see above



16th in career points scored

against who?



28th in career assists

who were his teammates?



13th in career DWS

do you know how defensive win shares are calculated, what they mean about an individual and how they can be compared with other eras?



34th in career WS


do you know how win shares are calculated, what they mean about an individual and how they can be compared with other eras?

I'm not arguing against Hondo here, him being out of the top 20 should be considered a crime against the sport, I'm arguing against this illogical nonesense everyone seems to be jumping on.

flea
08-19-2014, 01:00 PM
Easily Ewing. Until someone can explain why Robinson is so highly regarded here but Ewing isn't I'll keep complaining about it.

Kaner
08-19-2014, 01:08 PM
Iceman deserves some attention here.

Goose17
08-19-2014, 01:24 PM
I find it genuinely insane that Wade went above a lot of these players.

alexander_37
08-19-2014, 02:07 PM
My next 3 are

Clyde
Baylor
Pippen in any order.

mightybosstone
08-19-2014, 02:08 PM
who were the other choices? aka rivals at the same positions.

see above

see above

against who?

who were his teammates?

do you know how defensive win shares are calculated, what they mean about an individual and how they can be compared with other eras?

do you know how win shares are calculated, what they mean about an individual and how they can be compared with other eras?

I'm not arguing against Hondo here, him being out of the top 20 should be considered a crime against the sport, I'm arguing against this illogical nonesense everyone seems to be jumping on.
I'm not going to do your job for you, dude. If you want to disprove Hondo here, then actually make some points. I have a job and a life, and I don't have the time to go through and list every player that every played with or against Hondo in any given season.

I'm also not going to explain win shares to you, because I can't calculate them personally. I'm not a mathematician. But the stat is essentially derived from a player's contribution to a team's performance. It looks at a player's efficiency per possession on both sides of the ball and subtracts for inefficiencies and turnovers. It's a different formula for different eras, because some stats (like offensive or defensive rebounds, steals and blocks) were not available for certain years. But it's the same basic principle across all eras. If you want to look it up, you certainly can, but I'm not going to explain it to you in any further detail.

Bruno
08-19-2014, 02:11 PM
do we not care that Hondo has a regular season TS% of .492 and a playoff TS% of .498?

or do we give him a pass there assuming he's been robbed many a point by playing in an era without a three point line. Iversons more efficient than that guys. Hondo needed 19 shots a game to get his 21 points. :shrug:

mightybosstone
08-19-2014, 02:23 PM
do we not care that Hondo has a regular season TS% of .492 and a playoff TS% of .498?

or do we give him a pass there assuming he's been robbed many a point by playing in an era without a three point line. Iversons more efficient than that guys. Hondo needed 19 shots a game to get his 21 points. :shrug:

I think Havlicek is definitely one of those instances where the 3-point line could have made a significant difference. In his prime, he regularly shot 45% or better from the floor and 80% or better from the free throw line. Given that the guy was known for his jumper and so many offensive highlights I've seen of him are jump shots, I'm willing to bet the guy would have been at least an average 3-point shooter.

Ebbs
08-19-2014, 02:24 PM
Easily Ewing. Until someone can explain why Robinson is so highly regarded here but Ewing isn't I'll keep complaining about it.

That should take 2 seconds of looking at their career numbers lol.

Bruno
08-19-2014, 02:25 PM
i guess i'm being a bit stubborn but I'm sticking with Scottie.

Scottie is 4th in NBA history in defensive win-shares earned in the post-season. The only players in front of him are Wilt, Russell, and Duncan. that's insane.

12th overall in post season win-shares. hondo scored more points as the two players got older but I'm not that impressed by the efficiency it took to get those numbers. Pippen peaked out at 22/9/6/3/1 on a TS% of .544. Hondo has Pippen on longevity but I think were understating how much Pippen has him on peak.

Bruno
08-19-2014, 02:26 PM
I think Havlicek is definitely one of those instances where the 3-point line could have made a significant difference. In his prime, he regularly shot 45% or better from the floor and 80% or better from the free throw line. Given that the guy was known for his jumper and so many offensive highlights I've seen of him are jump shots, I'm willing to bet the guy would have been at least an average 3-point shooter.

yeah, me too. so tough to say with SG's from the 60s and 70's.

Bruno
08-19-2014, 02:36 PM
well, i just read that Hondo has more regular season defensive win shares than Pippen so I'm further torn here.

KnicksorBust
08-19-2014, 02:44 PM
John Havlicek.

13x allstar.
Averaged about 29-9-7.
6x nba champion
1x finals mvp
all-defensive teams

Love his two-way game.

Who stats are those? He averaged like 21-6-4

Hondo's peak season. A lot of people think of just as good player but I want people to see that at his peak he was damn close to a triple double per game with near 30 points. All while playing elite defense.

KnicksorBust
08-19-2014, 02:57 PM
i guess i'm being a bit stubborn but I'm sticking with Scottie.

Scottie is 4th in NBA history in defensive win-shares earned in the post-season. The only players in front of him are Wilt, Russell, and Duncan. that's insane.

12th overall in post season win-shares. hondo scored more points as the two players got older but I'm not that impressed by the efficiency it took to get those numbers. Pippen peaked out at 22/9/6/3/1 on a TS% of .544. Hondo has Pippen on longevity but I think were understating how much Pippen has him on peak.

Scottie is a legit choice here. He did it all in his career. To me, it is Hondo's longevity and superior role on his teams titles that give him the edge over Pippen.

flea
08-19-2014, 03:02 PM
well, i just read that Hondo has more regular season defensive win shares than Pippen so I'm further torn here.

Win shares are a team stat and individual parsing is imperfect, and he played with the guy some people think is the defensive GOAT for a significant part his career, winning a ton of games. Hard to say defensive win shares mean much of anything except he played on better defenses for longer. Especially since the eras are so incredibly different.

flea
08-19-2014, 03:06 PM
Scottie is a legit choice here. He did it all in his career. To me, it is Hondo's longevity and superior role on his teams titles that give him the edge over Pippen.

Huh? Pippen was the 2nd best player on championship teams, and was the 2nd best player on his team most of his career. Havlicek was nice but he came off the bench for a lot of his career even (not that that really matters for his performance). I don't know what you mean by "superior role," because a top 3 wing defender ever is a pretty big role by itself.

Chronz
08-19-2014, 03:10 PM
Easily Ewing. Until someone can explain why Robinson is so highly regarded here but Ewing isn't I'll keep complaining about it.

The story book ending. The higher peak level of play and longer sustainability of said play.

Chronz
08-19-2014, 03:19 PM
I think we should go Elgin to follow the Wade example of valuing peak performance. Its not Elgins fault he didn't have the talent to win a title, that was pretty hard to do when the Celtics monopolized everything.

sixers247
08-19-2014, 03:20 PM
I think we should go Elgin to follow the Wade example of valuing peak performance. Its not Elgins fault he didn't have the talent to win a title, that was pretty hard to do when the Celtics monopolized everything.

:clap:

Chronz
08-19-2014, 03:22 PM
do we not care that Hondo has a regular season TS% of .492 and a playoff TS% of .498?

or do we give him a pass there assuming he's been robbed many a point by playing in an era without a three point line. Iversons more efficient than that guys. Hondo needed 19 shots a game to get his 21 points. :shrug:

Playing alongside Bill Russell hurt his efficiency, which he sacrificed for the good of the team. And you have to compare TS% vs his respective era. He wasn't overly efficient either way but those are some factors that come into play.

flea
08-19-2014, 03:35 PM
The story book ending. The higher peak level of play and longer sustainability of said play.

Robinson was basically over as a peaking star player at 30. But let's look at 5 year peaks:

(1991-1996)Robinson: 25.9/11.5/3.4 with 3.5 blocks/1.7 steals on .586 TS/.521 eFG

(1989-1994)Ewing: 25.6/11.3/2.3 with 3 blocks/1 steal on .565 TS/.518 eFG

Robinson was a better offensive rebounder (9.9% to 8% ORB%) but and a little more efficient but that's it. Those are regular season stats.

Posteason it's 23.8/11.5/3.2 and 2.8/1.3 b/s on .536/.464 TS/eFG in 39 games (he missed playoffs in 92) for Robinson
For Ewing in postseason, it's 23.8/11.2/2.5 with 2.5/1.1 on .519 TS/.474 eFG in 65 games.

So very similar peak, very similar posteason lines and efficiency except one guy played 26 more games. Was Ewing's cast twice as good? Not in my mind. Then you consider Ewing's longevity was far superior (200 games). Even if you think those numbers prove Robinson is definitively better in prime, he achieved less team success.

If Ewing had been gifted Tim Duncan in his twilight I'm sure he'd have a pair of rings at least too. I guess it's the rings argument again cementing this - like the absurd D-Wade over Ewing one.

ManRam
08-19-2014, 03:42 PM
I figured I'd go Hondo here earlier, but I now find myself more split between Pippen and Elgin. All 3 are just so wildly different, yet all right about the same place. I'm leaning Pippen now, but I'm gonna let in marinate.

nimzboy
08-19-2014, 04:24 PM
Ewing or Elgin, then guys like stockton, scottie, isiah, walton, and then john h

Bruno
08-19-2014, 04:36 PM
Playing alongside Bill Russell hurt his efficiency, which he sacrificed for the good of the team. And you have to compare TS% vs his respective era. He wasn't overly efficient either way but those are some factors that come into play.

thats fair.

KnicksorBust
08-19-2014, 04:59 PM
Huh? Pippen was the 2nd best player on championship teams, and was the 2nd best player on his team most of his career. Havlicek was nice but he came off the bench for a lot of his career even (not that that really matters for his performance). I don't know what you mean by "superior role," because a top 3 wing defender ever is a pretty big role by itself.

Havlicek won 8 rings. And 3 of those rings 1968, 1969, and 1974 he was the best player on the team. I take nothing away from Scottie's rings but every single one of them was as a sidekick to MJ. How can I not give credit to Havlicek for having a superior role when not only did he win more rings but he carried more of the load?


Robinson was basically over as a peaking star player at 30. But let's look at 5 year peaks:

(1991-1996)Robinson: 25.9/11.5/3.4 with 3.5 blocks/1.7 steals on .586 TS/.521 eFG

(1989-1994)Ewing: 25.6/11.3/2.3 with 3 blocks/1 steal on .565 TS/.518 eFG

Robinson was a better offensive rebounder (9.9% to 8% ORB%) but and a little more efficient but that's it. Those are regular season stats.

Posteason it's 23.8/11.5/3.2 and 2.8/1.3 b/s on .536/.464 TS/eFG in 39 games (he missed playoffs in 92) for Robinson
For Ewing in postseason, it's 23.8/11.2/2.5 with 2.5/1.1 on .519 TS/.474 eFG in 65 games.

So very similar peak, very similar posteason lines and efficiency except one guy played 26 more games. Was Ewing's cast twice as good? Not in my mind. Then you consider Ewing's longevity was far superior (200 games). Even if you think those numbers prove Robinson is definitively better in prime, he achieved less team success.

If Ewing had been gifted Tim Duncan in his twilight I'm sure he'd have a pair of rings at least too. I guess it's the rings argument again cementing this - like the absurd D-Wade over Ewing one.

I am getting so sick of this argument. David Robinson and Patrick Ewing played in the same era. There should be no confusion. There was nothing that Ewing did better. Robinson led the league in scoring. Robinson led the league in blocks. Robinson made more All-NBA 1st teams. Robinson made more All-NBA DEFENSIVE 1st teams. Robinson won a league MVP. Robinson won a DPOY. All of those were while Patrick Ewing was in his prime and were accomplished without Tim Duncan.

KnicksorBust
08-19-2014, 05:05 PM
I figured I'd go Hondo here earlier, but I now find myself more split between Pippen and Elgin. All 3 are just so wildly different, yet all right about the same place. I'm leaning Pippen now, but I'm gonna let in marinate.

I'm having a tough time getting behind Elgin Baylor. We're still so high on the ranking that I don't see why we have to settle for a career loser. There are plenty of MVP winners and Championship Alpha Dogs to choose from first.

mightybosstone
08-19-2014, 05:24 PM
I'm having a tough time getting behind Elgin Baylor. We're still so high on the ranking that I don't see why we have to settle for a career loser. There are plenty of MVP winners and Championship Alpha Dogs to choose from first.

I think Baylor deserves serious consideration in the top 30. But his peak was relatively short and his prime wasn't that impressive. Back that up with his mediocre postseason production, lack of a title and little recognition as a defensive player, and I just can't justify him getting voted in this high.

I'd put Havlicek ahead of him for sure. And I'd probably rather vote in the elite No. 2s (Pippen, McHale, Stockton) before him as well. Then it's pretty much a toss up between him and Barry for the next best SF.

KnicksorBust
08-19-2014, 05:35 PM
Huh? Pippen was the 2nd best player on championship teams, and was the 2nd best player on his team most of his career. Havlicek was nice but he came off the bench for a lot of his career even (not that that really matters for his performance). I don't know what you mean by "superior role," because a top 3 wing defender ever is a pretty big role by itself.


I think Baylor deserves serious consideration in the top 30. But his peak was relatively short and his prime wasn't that impressive. Back that up with his mediocre postseason production, lack of a title and little recognition as a defensive player, and I just can't justify him getting voted in this high.

I'd put Havlicek ahead of him for sure. And I'd probably rather vote in the elite No. 2s (Pippen, McHale, Stockton) before him as well. Then it's pretty much a toss up between him and Barry for the next best SF.

I'm inclined to agree. I'm more impressed by Barry's career as well. The irony is that I had to claw for Bob Pettit and now we're reaching a point where people will be outraged if Baylor doesn't go up soon.

FlashBolt
08-19-2014, 06:49 PM
Why is Stockton still on this list is pretty pathetic..

Bruno
08-19-2014, 06:56 PM
Hondo's peak season. A lot of people think of just as good player but I want people to see that at his peak he was damn close to a triple double per game with near 30 points. All while playing elite defense.

okay, i was wrong saying Pippen peaked out way higher then. I somehow missed what hondo did from 71-72.

every once in a while advanced lines confuse the hell out of me. for example Hondos 29-9-8 in 1971 still equates to a PER under 21.0 and a WS/48 under .170. those counting numbers are brilliant but why the hell doesn't that get reward in the advanced line. Kobes beautiful counting line from the 2006 playoffs reminds me of the same thing. nice counters, underwhelming advanced.

...wtf??

off topic but this is the second time looking at Hondo has reminded me of Kobe. late career resurgence/peak. pretty counting line without the advanced stamp of approval.

JordansBulls
08-19-2014, 07:40 PM
Took HONDO here. 8x champion, led the Celtics in Win shares and PER and scoring a few times even when Russell was around. Won finals mvp as well.

Shammyguy3
08-19-2014, 08:10 PM
Havlieck for about half a dozen posts made in this thread

Longhornfan1234
08-19-2014, 09:23 PM
LOL @ no love for Drexler. Drexler took scrubs to finals while averaging 26/7/7. He took ultra stacked Bulls team to six games. Drexler's best players were Terry fvcking Porter, Duckworth, and Buck. He took this scrub *** team to the Finals twice. :laugh::laugh:


Prime Clyde had MULTIPLE .200 WS/48 seasons while averaging 27/8/6.

bagwell368
08-19-2014, 10:03 PM
OK, I'm one of the few here that saw him in his prime.

His career is split in two parts. The first part was the sixth man then going into the last few years of Russell they had such little relative offense, JH had to shoot too much. His FG% looks poor by our standards but a bit more in the flow in his. He was a great defender (as a 3) and rebounder throughout his career. His O was good as #2, but his D wasn't up to snuff IMO, too tall.

Later in the Hank Finkel then Dave Cowens era, his shooting % got better (he was always a real good FT shooter). He played mammoth minutes, still played tough D and rebounded, and won two more titles.

Long career by the standards of his era. Also when Red retired he coached the offense, Russell the D. Nobody talks about JH coaching the O, but he did. Red was still the executive coach.

Surprised he's going here, figured he'd last about 4 more slots. It's cool.

FlashBolt
08-19-2014, 11:22 PM
LOL @ no love for Drexler. Drexler took scrubs to finals while averaging 26/7/7. He took ultra stacked Bulls team to six games. Drexler's best players were Terry fvcking Porter, Duckworth, and Buck. He took this scrub *** team to the Finals twice. :laugh::laugh:


Prime Clyde had MULTIPLE .200 WS/48 seasons while averaging 27/8/6.

You must be kidding.. Portland had a strong offense and defense. I don't know what they were ranked bit it was top 5 for sure on both ends. One player doesn't do that.. Porter was an all star type caliber player, Buck was an amazing defender and was All NBA defensive, and Ducksworth was coming off as the most improved player/All-Star. Realistically, Clyde only had 4-5 really good seasons. Nothing worth bragging about. Wade was a much better player than him anyways.

Longhornfan1234
08-20-2014, 02:37 AM
You must be kidding.. Portland had a strong offense and defense. I don't know what they were ranked bit it was top 5 for sure on both ends. One player doesn't do that.. Porter was an all star type caliber player, Buck was an amazing defender and was All NBA defensive, and Ducksworth was coming off as the most improved player/All-Star. Realistically, Clyde only had 4-5 really good seasons. Nothing worth bragging about. Wade was a much better player than him anyways.
Drexler led Blazers to 2 finals and a WCF with no All NBA teammate(Buck's defensive teams don't count). Wade has never done that. Drexler lost to Bulls and Pistons because his teammates let him down.

NYKalltheway
08-20-2014, 06:09 AM
Drexler led Blazers to 2 finals and a WCF with no All NBA teammate(Buck's defensive teams don't count). Wade has never done that. Drexler lost to Bulls and Pistons because his teammates let him down.

But did Drexler win a ring against Jason Terry, Ben Gordon, Vince Carter and Richard Hamilton?

hidalgo
08-20-2014, 08:19 AM
i think Drexler vs Wade is a great comparison. really pretty similar games. i think it's about a tie really. they're equals in my opinion. amazing players

ThuglifeJ
08-20-2014, 09:51 AM
You guys are stat whores. Give me a guy who can run an entire team to its best abilities..Stockton or Kidd.

Chronz
08-20-2014, 10:01 AM
You guys are stat whores. Give me a guy who can run an entire team to its best abilities..Stockton or Kidd.

LMFAO.... Kidd? ...... rly doe?

You never saw him play huh

ThuglifeJ
08-20-2014, 10:36 AM
You guys are stat whores. Give me a guy who can run an entire team to its best abilities..Stockton or Kidd.

LMFAO.... Kidd? ...... rly doe?

You never saw him play huh

You musta missed his back to back finals trips?

naps
08-20-2014, 10:37 AM
But did Drexler win a ring against Jason Terry, Ben Gordon, Vince Carter and Richard Hamilton?

Still not a compelling argument from you why Ewing should be over player X. Bitter much?

Dade County
08-20-2014, 10:39 AM
I find it genuinely insane that Wade went above a lot of these players.

Yeah, Wade should have went earlier.

But whatever, people remember the last thing they see. I am sure after next season Wade will be closer to the top 10.

lol

Chronz
08-20-2014, 10:57 AM
You musta missed his back to back finals trips?

You mean when his teams offense sucked?

So ur argument is that you dont use stats and now that Kidd is the only candidate left on the board with back 2 back Finals trips? What about players who go to the Finals 2 out of 3 years while facing more competition? Is that really much worse?

Cmon man, try to debate.

Longhornfan1234
08-20-2014, 11:56 AM
But did Drexler win a ring against Jason Terry, Ben Gordon, Vince Carter and Richard Hamilton?

Drexler was going against STACKED teams in the golden era while Wade couldn't get out of the first round without two top 10 players in history.

mightybosstone
08-20-2014, 12:54 PM
LOL @ no love for Drexler. Drexler took scrubs to finals while averaging 26/7/7. He took ultra stacked Bulls team to six games. Drexler's best players were Terry fvcking Porter, Duckworth, and Buck. He took this scrub *** team to the Finals twice. :laugh::laugh:

Prime Clyde had MULTIPLE .200 WS/48 seasons while averaging 27/8/6.

You know who else posted a .200 WS/48 in a season and helped lead a team deep into the playoffs? Terry Porter. Twice. You're totally underrating his impact as a player and how good those Portland teams were.

flea
08-20-2014, 01:06 PM
I'd personally take Drexler over Wade. Better shooter, rebounder, defender and fairly close in playmaking efficiency - even considering Wade played PG a lot. Advanced stats like him better, he had a good playoff resume, has his precious ring. He's just one of many on the list still with a better career than Wade - but this thread is full of Johnny-come-lately fans.

mightybosstone
08-20-2014, 01:26 PM
I'd personally take Drexler over Wade. Better shooter, rebounder, defender and fairly close in playmaking efficiency - even considering Wade played PG a lot. Advanced stats like him better, he had a good playoff resume, has his precious ring. He's just one of many on the list still with a better career than Wade - but this thread is full of Johnny-come-lately fans.

In what way do advanced stats like Drexler better than Wade?
Drexler: Career 21.1 PER, 3 seasons with a 23+ PER, 54.7% TS%, .173 WS/48, 1 season with a WS/48 over .220
Wade: Career 25.3 PER, 8 seasons with a 23+ PER, 56.8% TS%, .192 WS/48, 4 seasons with a WS/48 over .220

And the gap is just as significant in terms of playoff production. Who the better defender was is a coin flip argument, but there's no way you can argue that Drexler was a better offensive player. In 15 years, Drexler had only 3 seasons with 24+ points per game, which Wade has already done 7 times in only 11 seasons. Wade was also the superior distributor and just more efficient as an offensive player.

In fact, I don't even know how someone would formulate a competent argument that Drexler was better than Wade. And that's coming from a Rockets fan who adored Drexler as a kid. He's one of my all-time favorite players.

flea
08-20-2014, 01:58 PM
PER is a terrible stat and should not be used period - especially across eras. Look at their offensive ratings and defensive ratings to get an idea of what advanced stats say they did vs. the competition - Drexler wins out on both of them. Even for the postseason, Drexler kills Wade in their careers. Drexler: 113 offensive rating, 109 defensive rating. Wade: 108 offensive rating, 103 defensive rating. I think people have selective memories when it comes to Wade's postseason failures.

Win shares are a team stat, and Wade played with Shaq and Lebron during most of those big win share years. The one he didn't (2009) he had Shawn Marion, Udonis Haslem, and Jermaine O'Neal all in their primes. The team was barely over .500 but were a very good defensive team and a bad offensive one. You can bet WS gives too much credit to the lone scorer and not enough to defensive monsters like those guys. It was a good year for him, to be sure, but the allocation is skewed and it's not like that was a great team or anything.

eFG% are pretty close, and that's more accurate than looking at TS% for a slasher in the no hand check era. Hell, without being gifted that absurd amount of FTs in the '06 Finals Wade doesn't even have his lone ring as the best player.

mightybosstone
08-20-2014, 02:20 PM
PER is a terrible stat and should not be used period - especially across eras. Look at their offensive ratings and defensive ratings to get an idea of what advanced stats say they did vs. the competition - Drexler wins out on both of them. Even for the postseason, Drexler kills Wade in their careers. Drexler: 113 offensive rating, 109 defensive rating. Wade: 108 offensive rating, 103 defensive rating. I think people have selective memories when it comes to Wade's postseason failures.

Win shares are a team stat, and Wade played with Shaq and Lebron during most of those big win share years. The one he didn't (2009) he had Shawn Marion, Udonis Haslem, and Jermaine O'Neal all in their primes. The team was barely over .500 but were a very good defensive team and a bad offensive one. You can bet WS gives too much credit to the lone scorer and not enough to defensive monsters like those guys. It was a good year for him, to be sure, but the allocation is skewed and it's not like that was a great team or anything.

eFG% are pretty close, and that's more accurate than looking at TS% for a slasher in the no hand check era. Hell, without being gifted that absurd amount of FTs in the '06 Finals Wade doesn't even have his lone ring as the best player.

:facepalm:

Did you just use ORtg and DRtg as your sole statistic by which to compare two players all-time? And then back that up by suggesting that they're far better statistics to use than WS, because WS is more of a team stat? I'm not really sure how to address that, because it's just so very, very wrong.

flea
08-20-2014, 02:34 PM
ORtg and DRtg are heavily team-influenced as well, no doubt. Basketball is a team game. But even WS are pretty close for the two, if you think it's an amazing stat (I don't). Drexler has 7 10+ WS seasons to Wade's 5. So it's not like the stat makes a clear-cut case for Wade.

I explained why Wade's '09 season, and many of his WS seasons, are so high. He had a 36% USG in '09. That's just AI-level team-killing basketball. You can say it was the best option for the team, and maybe so. But Drexler never had over 30% USG in any single season. You're basically rewarding Wade for being a chucker - which is what PER does - and punishing Drexler for playing within his team's offense and for playing defense.

I also find it funny that people just say "defense is a coin flip." It reminds me of the guy who told me Duncan and Lebron's defense is a wash once. Wade is an ultra-athletic and hyperactive guard, from the Iverson school of defense. That works if you've got people covering for him but it doesn't make you a great defender. The '14 playoffs are a shining example of that style of defense gone wrong. Drexler, on the other hand, while not being a lockdown guy was very solid and his numbers bare it out.

mightybosstone
08-20-2014, 02:38 PM
Pop quiz. Is Carlos Boozer a better defender than Dwight Howard, Marc Gasol, Anthony Davis, Omer Asik and Tyson Chandler and just as good of a defender as Tim Duncan and Roy Hibbert? Because he boasted a far better DRtg than those first four guys and an identical DRtg than Duncan and Hibbert. On the flip side, is Patrick Beverley a better offensive player than Russell Westbrook, Paul George, Chris Bosh, Tony Parker and Carmelo Anthony? Because he had a far higher ORtg than those players last season.

A mediocre offensive or defensive player can post phenomenal offensive or defensive ratings playing for great offensive or defensive teams. Those statistics are far more biased toward team play than WS or PER.

sixers247
08-20-2014, 02:39 PM
This is just numbers and nothing advanced but of this basic knowledge, I think it is pretty easy to see Wade being ahead of Drexler

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/d/clyde_drexler_vs_dwyane_wade.htm

flea
08-20-2014, 02:46 PM
Pop quiz. Is Carlos Boozer a better defender than Dwight Howard, Marc Gasol, Anthony Davis, Omer Asik and Tyson Chandler and just as good of a defender as Tim Duncan and Roy Hibbert? Because he boasted a far better DRtg than those first four guys and an identical DRtg than Duncan and Hibbert. On the flip side, is Patrick Beverley a better offensive player than Russell Westbrook, Paul George, Chris Bosh, Tony Parker and Carmelo Anthony? Because he had a far higher ORtg than those players last season.

A mediocre offensive or defensive player can post phenomenal offensive or defensive ratings playing for great offensive or defensive teams. Those statistics are far more biased toward team play than WS or PER.

Yeah and win shares do the same thing - overrate wings defensively. Look at all the DWS that Duncan's teammates have accumulated over the years - like Ginobili being a top 30 defensive wing (lol yeah right). But we're comparing two wings, not Dwight and Drexler. You can't take any advanced stat at face value and post defense is the most difficult thing to account for. Especially in the zone-hybrid defense era.

PER is USG% dependent. WS are simply based on wins, not taking into account competition, and crudely divvying up credit. They're all part of the picture. I like to look at teams' adjusted offensive and defensive ratings, personally, when comparing star players. When I have time later I will make a post for Drexler/Wade.

tredigs
08-20-2014, 02:55 PM
PER is a terrible stat and should not be used period - especially across eras. Look at their offensive ratings and defensive ratings to get an idea of what advanced stats say they did vs. the competition - Drexler wins out on both of them. Even for the postseason, Drexler kills Wade in their careers. Drexler: 113 offensive rating, 109 defensive rating. Wade: 108 offensive rating, 103 defensive rating. I think people have selective memories when it comes to Wade's postseason failures.

Win shares are a team stat, and Wade played with Shaq and Lebron during most of those big win share years. The one he didn't (2009) he had Shawn Marion, Udonis Haslem, and Jermaine O'Neal all in their primes. The team was barely over .500 but were a very good defensive team and a bad offensive one. You can bet WS gives too much credit to the lone scorer and not enough to defensive monsters like those guys. It was a good year for him, to be sure, but the allocation is skewed and it's not like that was a great team or anything.

eFG% are pretty close, and that's more accurate than looking at TS% for a slasher in the no hand check era. Hell, without being gifted that absurd amount of FTs in the '06 Finals Wade doesn't even have his lone ring as the best player.

If WinShares is the standard Team stat as you maintain, how do you explain K Love consistently being among the league leaders, or Anthony Davis last year? Top 8 in WS/48 last season were KD, CP3, Lebron, Love, Curry, Harden, Anthony Davis and Griffin. The stat is imperfect, but far from strictly team orientated and a quick look at the top 10 in any given year proves that (obviously understanding that teams with the best players/WS-48's are going to create better teams as a whole).

flea
08-20-2014, 03:01 PM
I'm not saying it's worthless in the least. But we're talking about relatively minute differences for these players in this thread. Team success and role are just as important and can influence why there is a WS/Rating disparity.

Longhornfan1234
08-20-2014, 03:02 PM
Mighty is getting abused once again. I wish he was an Aggy fan. :laugh2:

WaDe03
08-20-2014, 03:05 PM
So is Drexler and Ewing better than Jordan Magic and Bird? Jordan needed Pippen and Rodman, Magic needed Kareem and Worthy, and Bird needed Mchale and Parish. All I see on here is people saying Wade needed another star to win and they're hating on his first round exits.

2007 was injured, 2009 his team was absolutely horrible and he dominated, 2010 he dominated but once again his team was terrible and they had to go up against the Celtics big 3 first round.

Drexler actually had good teammates, when Wade had good teammates they either won it all or were competing he's been to 5 finals would've more than likely been 6 had he not gotten injured in the ECF against the pistons in 2005.

I also think it's funny when people on here discredit stats and rings like they have nothing to do with determining how good a player was.

ewing
08-20-2014, 03:10 PM
i actually Wade is this generations Drexler. They are very comparable players in terms of both style and impact

Longhornfan1234
08-20-2014, 03:12 PM
Drexler went two finals and WCF without all nba teammate. When Drexler needed Porter, Buck, and Duckworth the most, they were nowhere to be found. Drexler was better passer, play maker, rebounder, defender, and by far a superior open court player than Wade. How many wing players in history dropped 26/7/7 while carrying a team without all nba teammate to finals? I'll wait.

Longhornfan1234
08-20-2014, 03:14 PM
i actually Wade is this generations Drexler. They are very comparable players in terms of both style and impact

No...not at all. Wade is much better half court player. Drexler had trouble in half court. I always wonder what Drexler would have done in slow paced offense.

sixers247
08-20-2014, 03:19 PM
Drexler went two finals and WCF without all nba teammate. When Drexler needed Porter, Buck, and Duckworth the most, they were nowhere to be found. Drexler was better passer, play maker, rebounder, defender, and by far a superior open court player than Wade. How many wing players in history dropped 26/7/7 while carrying a team without all nba teammate to finals? I'll wait.


Lebron

Longhornfan1234
08-20-2014, 03:22 PM
Lebron

Top 10 player in history. Drexler is in good company.

sixers247
08-20-2014, 03:32 PM
Top 10 player in history. Drexler is in good company.

No doubt, I do think Drexler goes prior to 30 but I don't think him being behind Wade is that big of a tragedy.

tredigs
08-20-2014, 03:36 PM
Drexler went two finals and WCF without all nba teammate. When Drexler needed Porter, Buck, and Duckworth the most, they were nowhere to be found. Drexler was better passer, play maker, rebounder, defender, and by far a superior open court player than Wade. How many wing players in history dropped 26/7/7 while carrying a team without all nba teammate to finals? I'll wait.
Rick Barry - and he carried the Warriors to the ship in '75 while sweeping a 60 win Bullets team who had the leagues top D along with 3 All Stars / Top-10 MVP players in the Finals.

NYKalltheway
08-20-2014, 04:18 PM
Still not a compelling argument from you why Ewing should be over player X. Bitter much?


I never argued about Ewing so try again.

NYKalltheway
08-20-2014, 04:20 PM
You know who else posted a .200 WS/48 in a season and helped lead a team deep into the playoffs? Terry Porter. Twice. You're totally underrating his impact as a player and how good those Portland teams were.


I'd really love to here more about this WS/48 argument. Care to elaborate...?

Bruno
08-20-2014, 04:29 PM
some of this is getting ridiculous.

WaDe03
08-20-2014, 07:40 PM
Let's keep Ewing on the bored until TodWilkinson/ShawnKemp gets back.

mightybosstone
08-20-2014, 09:05 PM
Mighty is getting abused once again. I wish he was an Aggy fan. :laugh2:

Based on what exactly? I keep hearing about how much I'm getting owned, but nobody ever explains why. And I would think you would be used to getting owned, because most of your posts are completely biased nonsense. You're just a troll and not a particularly good one.

JordansBulls
08-20-2014, 09:53 PM
I nominate Dominique Wilkins to be in the poll.

AntiG
08-20-2014, 10:47 PM
This is just numbers and nothing advanced but of this basic knowledge, I think it is pretty easy to see Wade being ahead of Drexler

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/d/clyde_drexler_vs_dwyane_wade.htm
not if you watched both play.

Bullsfan6Rings
08-20-2014, 11:15 PM
I saw earlier the running narative by several fools on PSD was that Ewing shouldn't be ranked on PSD because he wasn't as good as Hakeem Olajuwon (which is his opinion I might add). What a stupid reason, I mean REALLY!

Ok, D. Wade is not as good as Lebron or Kobe he shouldn't be ranked here either!


Is this a greatest player ranking or is it a "Who had the best ppg stats per game" list. Cause they're entirely two different things.

Ewing would be drafted top 10 in an All Time Draft. Probabley someone like Phil Jackson would draft him in the top 10.

Phil Jackson did say he's a top 5 player of all time.

Bullsfan6Rings
08-20-2014, 11:24 PM
not if you watched both play.

Drexler would kill Wade. They're both Shooting guards, but Drexler is 6'7 and long. Also Drexler was one of the fastest and smoothest players ever. Also he was known to be able to dunk from the foul line in games.
Way better at steals and led a team through the tough West to two separate Finals and the refs didn't give him a fair shake in his first Finals to say the least. Then in the Second one he only lost because he was facing MJ. Anyone else he would've beat including the 6'4 Wade. Drexler was more athletic and bigger. Plus he could even shoot threes unlike Wade.

wade is honestly around 50 all time.

Ewing is top 10. He's the only one that could go toe to toe with Prime MJ. That goes for any era. He took Circa 92 Jordan to 7 GAMES!!!

He scored over

29,000 points
15,000 rebounds
2,900 blocks
1,200 steals
2,200 assist
50%.
for his amazing career.

He was the third best player in the entire decade of the 90's.

But that is another narative here by the fools that control this board. They want to see 60's players and 2000's players and that' it.

They go by per game stats but then sometimes they change their reasoning and just go on pure homerness or opinion.

Bullsfan6Rings
08-20-2014, 11:33 PM
The real all time list how they'd actually be drafted in an ALL TIME DRAFT

Jordan
Russell not because fo the rings, because he was actually really good at the game
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Shaq
Robinson yes all those centers were competive and about the same one made the other better
Ewing
Moses
Kareem
Robertson
Barkley
Duncan
Pippen
Erving
Isiah
Malone
Drexler
Wilt
Nowitzki
McHale
Hayes
Garnett
Wilkins
Havlicek
Worthy
Rodman
Lanier
Walton
Parish
Kemp

mightybosstone
08-20-2014, 11:34 PM
I saw earlier the running narative by several fools on PSD was that Ewing shouldn't be ranked on PSD because he wasn't as good as Hakeem Olajuwon (which is his opinion I might add). What a stupid reason, I mean REALLY!
Where did anyone say this? I've been following these threads fairly closely and don't remember a single person saying anything like this.


Is this a greatest player ranking or is it a "Who had the best ppg stats per game" list. Cause they're entirely two different things.
Who said that? And if that were the case, why have 7 of the top 15 scorers of all-time not cracked the list yet?


Ewing would be drafted top 10 in an All Time Draft.
Not a chance in hell does that happen by any competent NBA fan or analyst. And as someone who has participated in multiple re-drafts on this site, I can attest to that being true. In fact, I don't recall him ever being drafted higher than 20.


Probabley someone like Phil Jackson would draft him in the top 10. Phil Jackson did say he's a top 5 player of all time.
Do you have a source for this? I'm not necessarily saying it never happened, but I've never heard him say this and I couldn't find anything like that simply by Googling it.

mightybosstone
08-20-2014, 11:36 PM
The real all time list how they'd actually be drafted in an ALL TIME DRAFT

Jordan
Russell not because fo the rings, because he was actually really good at the game
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Shaq
Robinson yes all those centers were competive and about the same one made the other better
Ewing
Moses
Kareem
Robertson
Barkley
Duncan
Pippen
Erving
Isiah
Malone
Drexler
Wilt
Nowitzki
McHale
Hayes
Garnett
Wilkins
Havlicek
Worthy
Rodman
Lanier
Walton
Parish
Kemp
This is one of the worst lists I've ever seen. Based on the "quality" of this list and your inclusion of Kemp, I'm beginning to think you might be another one of his dupes...

Bullsfan6Rings
08-20-2014, 11:36 PM
You were one of the ones that said it.

What do you have against Ewing? Oh, he lost to Jordan. BIG DEAL IT HAPPENS!!!!

Bullsfan6Rings
08-20-2014, 11:40 PM
This is one of the worst lists I've ever seen. Based on the "quality" of this list and your inclusion of Kemp, I'm beginning to think you might be another one of his dupes...

It's based on how good player was... NOT who chucked the most, or who had the best stats. If we're going on stats alone, then where is Shareef Rahim?

Rings are great, but not all rings are even. Not everyone could win one in the 80's and 90's. Just like Lebron couldn't win one until he stacked his team with D Wade

remember how Lebron lost to the Spurs in the Finals, then he lost to Dirk and the Mavs in the Finals. So he's not any good. He couldn't get it done in the Finals. That's your same agurment against Ewing and some others.

Bullsfan6Rings
08-20-2014, 11:42 PM
Hey bosstone, I live in Texas near Arlington. How bout we meet up and settle this on the street unless youre scared. Cause you really need to be taught boy!!

Bullsfan6Rings
08-20-2014, 11:44 PM
I nominate Dominique Wilkins to be in the poll.

He didn't take his talents to join Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars so he won't get votes on PSD. He didn't win a title remember and that's the only thing these idiots look at.

mightybosstone
08-20-2014, 11:46 PM
Ewing is top 10. He's the only one that could go toe to toe with Prime MJ. That goes for any era. He took Circa 92 Jordan to 7 GAMES!!!
Based on what exactly? Just because a team he was on played a seven-game series with Michael Jordan? Based on that same logic, Reggie Miller should be top 10, because his Pacers took Jordan to seven games in 98.


He scored over

29,000 points
15,000 rebounds
2,900 blocks
1,200 steals
2,200 assist
50%.
for his amazing career.
Other players left on this list have better numbers than this. And every player in the top 10 has has a far more impressive career.


He was the third best player in the entire decade of the 90's.
How could you possibly make that argument? Even if you somehow thought he was better than Barkley, Malone, Stockton and Pippen (which I don't), how is he possibly better than MJ, Hakeem or Robinson? I'd love to see you make a legitimate argument over one of those three guys.


But that is another narative here by the fools that control this board. They want to see 60's players and 2000's players and that' it.
What are you talking about? 10 of the 21 players picked so far peaked in the 70s, 80s or 90s. Are you insinuating that all PSD fans somehow have a bias toward players from those decades? Why in the hell would that be the case?


They go by per game stats but then sometimes they change their reasoning and just go on pure homerness or opinion.
Again, please find an actual example of this before you go around throwing blanket accusations at posters. I'm pretty much positive you're a dupe at this point. Nobody joins the forum and immediately starts insulting posters at every turn.

mightybosstone
08-20-2014, 11:50 PM
Hey bosstone, I live in Texas near Arlington. How bout we meet up and settle this on the street unless youre scared. Cause you really need to be taught boy!!

Why would I drive 3 hours to get into a fight with someone I disagree with on the Internet? I'm an adult with a life and a job. What kind of pathetic life do you live where doing something like that makes any kind of sense to you?

NYKalltheway
08-21-2014, 12:46 AM
since Havlicek is going to win this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLq0IXn24KU

ThuglifeJ
08-21-2014, 01:04 AM
Hey bosstone, I live in Texas near Arlington. How bout we meet up and settle this on the street unless youre scared. Cause you really need to be taught boy!!

Why would I drive 3 hours to get into a fight with someone I disagree with on the Internet? I'm an adult with a life and a job. What kind of pathetic life do you live where doing something like that makes any kind of sense to you?

With your overreactions and sensitivity level on the internet. This is debatable.

sixers247
08-21-2014, 07:46 AM
Can we do a post limit on who can post in this thread too lol. Dude got no life to be making dupes so much for the last two weeks. Idiot basketball knowledge plus countless dupes = sad existence.

AntiG
08-21-2014, 08:07 AM
Drexler would kill Wade. They're both Shooting guards, but Drexler is 6'7 and long. Also Drexler was one of the fastest and smoothest players ever. Also he was known to be able to dunk from the foul line in games.
Way better at steals and led a team through the tough West to two separate Finals and the refs didn't give him a fair shake in his first Finals to say the least. Then in the Second one he only lost because he was facing MJ. Anyone else he would've beat including the 6'4 Wade. Drexler was more athletic and bigger. Plus he could even shoot threes unlike Wade.

wade is honestly around 50 all time.

Ewing is top 10. He's the only one that could go toe to toe with Prime MJ. That goes for any era. He took Circa 92 Jordan to 7 GAMES!!!

He scored over

29,000 points
15,000 rebounds
2,900 blocks
1,200 steals
2,200 assist
50%.
for his amazing career.

He was the third best player in the entire decade of the 90's.

But that is another narative here by the fools that control this board. They want to see 60's players and 2000's players and that' it.

They go by per game stats but then sometimes they change their reasoning and just go on pure homerness or opinion.

This.

mightybosstone
08-21-2014, 08:14 AM
troll, all bosstone is. He's always trolling my posts

:facepalm:

You realize that you just essentially admitted you're a dupe account right? You have 8 posts and joined PSD today and I've never commented on a single thing said by this username.

mightybosstone
08-21-2014, 08:22 AM
With your overreactions and sensitivity level on the internet. This is debatable.

Since when does Internet decorum relate to whether or not somebody has a life or not? If anything, I use the Internet as an outlet to occasionally overreact and let out some frustration. I'm a much more fun-loving person in real life. You'd want to have a drink with me. But on the Internet? If your sports opinions are different than mine, you can all go **** yourselves. :)

sixers247
08-21-2014, 08:30 AM
This.

He wasn't even the third best center of the 90's. Olajuwon, Robinson and O'neal say hello.

mightybosstone
08-21-2014, 08:46 AM
He wasn't even the third best center of the 90's. Olajuwon, Robinson and O'neal say hello.

Oh yeah. I totally forgot to even mention Shaq earlier. Even the biggest Ewing fan could rank him no higher than fifth among all the great players of the 90s. Third is just absolutely absurd. If it was me ranking 90s players, it would be something like:
1. Michael Jordan
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. David Robinson
5. Charles Barkley
6. Scottie Pippen
7. John Stockton
8. Karl Malone
9. Patrick Ewing

sixers247
08-21-2014, 08:49 AM
Oh yeah. I totally forgot to even mention Shaq earlier. Even the biggest Ewing fan could rank him no higher than fifth among all the great players of the 90s. Third is just absolutely absurd. If it was me ranking 90s players, it would be something like:
1. Michael Jordan
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. David Robinson
5. Charles Barkley
6. Scottie Pippen
7. John Stockton
8. Karl Malone
9. Patrick Ewing

Agreed- So Ewing has a few more spots to go on this all time list without even counting other decades lol.

ATX
08-21-2014, 09:58 AM
Hey bosstone, I live in Texas near Arlington. How bout we meet up and settle this on the street unless youre scared. Cause you really need to be taught boy!!

Wow man, how old are you to want to meet someone from the internet and get in a fight? Watch out everyone a pimply faced high schooler is enraged by the internet and is coming for you! I'd rather drive to Conroe, enjoy camping at the lake with some friends, and grab a beer with Bosstone.

mightybosstone
08-21-2014, 10:05 AM
Wow man, how old are you to want to meet someone from the internet and get in a fight? Watch out everyone a pimply faced high schooler is enraged by the internet and is coming for you! I'd rather drive to Conroe, enjoy camping at the lake with some friends, and grab a beer with Bosstone.
I actually live in Houston now, so I should probably change that. But I'd much rather head up to Austin, catch a movie at Alamo Drafthouse, get a couple of Mexican Martinis from Trudy's and hit up Pete's Piano Bar on 6th St. God I miss living in Austin...

mightybosstone
08-21-2014, 10:29 AM
Yay! Hondo officially made it! Now the question is whether to go with Pippen or Stockton for No. 24. I'm leaning toward Pippen, but I'm curious to see how debate goes once the thread gets started.

Dade County
08-21-2014, 11:48 AM
This 23rd voting proved, that it was Wade haters mostly voting for Ewing.



Just sad, the man only got 6 votes now... smh

sixers247
08-21-2014, 11:55 AM
This 23rd voting proved, that it was Wade haters mostly voting for Ewing.



Just sad, the man only got 6 votes now... smh

Not to mention it was about 7-10 dupes voting for Ewing.

Dade County
08-21-2014, 10:16 PM
Ridiculous

tredigs
08-22-2014, 08:56 AM
Rick Barry - and he carried the Warriors to the ship in '75 while sweeping a 60 win Bullets team who had the leagues top D along with 3 All Stars / Top-10 MVP players in the Finals.

Love the absolute non-rebuttal... blouses.