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View Full Version : Can a team contend if they're really good on offense but horrible on defense?



FriedTofuz
08-16-2014, 09:28 PM
I personally cannot recall the last time a team that was below average on defense, coming away with a title, or the very least, a 2nd round exit.

To those who are stats experts can you provide any instance where a good offensive team was able to win at least a 1st rounder series games, but was below average on defense( bottom 20s) :)

InRoseWeTrust
08-16-2014, 09:38 PM
2013-2014 Houston Rockets.

FriedTofuz
08-16-2014, 09:40 PM
Houston was never a contender, they couldnt make it out of the 1st round..

InRoseWeTrust
08-16-2014, 09:41 PM
Houston was never a contender, they couldnt make it out of the 1st round..

OP said "To those who are stats experts can you provide any instance where a good offensive team was able to win 50 games, but was below average on defense( bottom 20s) "

Houston won 54, and I believe was around 23rd overall in D.

FriedTofuz
08-16-2014, 09:42 PM
Oh sorry, I should edit that a bit.
That surprises me knowing they have dwight.

NBA_Starter
08-16-2014, 10:17 PM
If you are horrible on D you won't do much period.

rockets-fan
08-16-2014, 10:21 PM
Rockets are a prime example that a title cannot be won with no D

Chaotic98
08-16-2014, 10:25 PM
I think the OP is now trying too hard to prove to Knick fans that they will not be successful with a great offense and poor defense.

east fb knicks
08-16-2014, 10:34 PM
I think the OP is now trying too hard to prove to Knick fans that they will not be successful with a great offense and poor defense.

it's a moot point tho we haven't seen our team play 1 game yet nobody even knows if we will have a good or bad offense or defense:laugh2:

Clippersfan86
08-16-2014, 10:36 PM
WTF? The Rockets were like the 11th ranked D last year, not 23rd.

InRoseWeTrust
08-16-2014, 10:45 PM
WTF? The Rockets were like the 11th ranked D last year, not 23rd.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/team-comparison-per-game/sort/avgPointsOpponent


Is what I was going by.

Clippersfan86
08-16-2014, 10:47 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/team-comparison-per-game/sort/avgPointsOpponent


Is what I was going by.

Worthless stat. Go by team defensive efficiency. Points of opponent means nothing. It doesn't factor in pace/possessions. Rockets play fast.. meaning they often speed opponents up= more possessions for the opposing team, which = worse dppg.

DillyDill
08-16-2014, 10:59 PM
What about those Expolsive Suns teams, weren't they middle of pack defensively?

InRoseWeTrust
08-16-2014, 11:02 PM
Worthless stat. Go by team defensive efficiency. Points of opponent means nothing. It doesn't factor in pace/possessions. Rockets play fast.. meaning they often speed opponents up= more possessions for the opposing team, which = worse dppg.

I know that doesn't take pace into account, but at the end of the day you still need to stop points from going up on the board. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Houston was a below average defensive team...the playoffs certainly proved as much.

Clippersfan86
08-17-2014, 12:20 AM
It is unreasonable to say Houston was below average on D. Remember the Blazers were an offensive powerhouse last season (2nd ranked offense after Clippers, 1st best shooting team). For Houston too struggle on D vs a team that swings the ball and shoots like that when they have mediocre wing defenders outside of Beverley isn't a shock, nor does it make them bad. Houston was an ABOVE average defensive team and nearly top 10.

Bruno
08-17-2014, 12:22 AM
at worst you have to be mediocre on defense.

albertajaysfan
08-17-2014, 01:16 AM
It is unreasonable to say Houston was below average on D. Remember the Blazers were an offensive powerhouse last season (2nd ranked offense after Clippers, 1st best shooting team). For Houston too struggle on D vs a team that swings the ball and shoots like that when they have mediocre wing defenders outside of Beverley isn't a shock, nor does it make them bad. Houston was an ABOVE average defensive team and nearly top 10.

But Houston had terrible D in the regular season as well. The playoffs weren't an aberration they were exactly par for the course for what Houston produced during the whole season.

dhopisthename
08-17-2014, 01:25 AM
this is a much better stat http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff/order/false

they were 12th last year. dallas was a great example last year of a team with a bad defense and a great offense. You will make the playoffs, but most of the time you don't do much. I would also postulate that it would be hard for a great defense and a bad offense to win a championship as well. most teams that win a champion are top 10 in both categories.

Clippersfan86
08-17-2014, 01:29 AM
But Houston had terrible D in the regular season as well. The playoffs weren't an aberration they were exactly par for the course for what Houston produced during the whole season.

Are you trying to show off how little knowledge you have here?

Chavacano
08-17-2014, 01:39 AM
No.

FriedTofuz
08-17-2014, 02:10 AM
I think the OP is now trying too hard to prove to Knick fans that they will not be successful with a great offense and poor defense.


Look I understand your annoyance with these thread. They are ridiculous. But that in no way means that he speaks for all Raps fans.

Many of us are cautiously optimistic about the upcoming season.

There's nothing wrong with my thread. It was a topic for discussion and that's waht it should continue to be. it isnt to point the finger and bait a team. To me, it makes little sense build a team around offense first players and instead makes sense to build and draft players on teams that can play defense. There's nothing annoying about what I stated in this thread. There's nothing ridiculous about it either. It's a legitimate question, as are the other threads.

What exactly am I speaking for? I've not been boasting about my team's potential success at all, so Im not sure if you might be mistaking me for someone else. If anything I have been the guy who has been putting both Charlotte and Miami having better records than the raptors.

FriedTofuz
08-17-2014, 02:14 AM
this is a much better stat http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff/order/false

they were 12th last year. dallas was a great example last year of a team with a bad defense and a great offense. You will make the playoffs, but most of the time you don't do much.' I would also postulate that it would be hard for a great defense and a bad offense to win a championship as well. most teams that win a champion are top 10 in both categories.

That's a useful link,thanks. It appears that the furthest you can go with bad defense is the 1st round.

Chaotic98
08-17-2014, 03:51 AM
no where did I mention knicks. you two are delusional, please dont involve me. Thanks.

You started/baited a Knicks thread on the Raptors forum asking who has more depth.

You then created one here by just quoting some Knicks fan's response from there, asking if its possible to win 54 games.

You then created a very "ambiguous" thread asking if a good offense can go far with a poor defense, which was a point of the conversation in both those aforementioned threads.

I may be delusional, but I'm not a blind illiterate idiot. (No offense to the blind, illiterate or idiot people).

FriedTofuz
08-17-2014, 04:23 AM
You started/baited a Knicks thread on the Raptors forum asking who has more depth.

You then created one here by just quoting some Knicks fan's response from there, asking if its possible to win 54 games.

You then created a very "ambiguous" thread asking if a good offense can go far with a poor defense, which was a point of the conversation in both those aforementioned threads.

I may be delusional, but I'm not a blind illiterate idiot. (No offense to the blind, illiterate or idiot people).

I specifically stated in the thread that I was genuinely asking if the knicks had more bench depth. Because it did seem that way, and I was questioning why they did so poorly the season ago because there some names on paper for that team's bench. I was never baiting, re-read my posts before your accuse.

I created an " ambiguous" thread because you're overthinking it. You're letting my past posts influence what could potentially be my point to a thread. To be honest, There's a poster named JordanBulls around here, and he's always thought of insightful topics to generate a discussion and I felt like this could be a topic of discussion, not to bait the knicks.

You need to stop overthinking and either contribute to a positive discussion or simply not post in it, I dont like having to reply to something offtopic when this thread isnt about poster vs poster. If you had some maturity as a person, you'd not feed the troll if I am apparently a troll.

Run&Gun
08-17-2014, 06:08 AM
Phoneix Suns, got to WCF a few times when Steve Nash was there, so it's possible, but I think there are only the Lakers won it all with below average defense, but they coasted during the regular season. It's possible, but just really really unlikely.

ewing
08-17-2014, 07:24 AM
Phoneix Suns, got to WCF a few times when Steve Nash was there, so it's possible, but I think there are only the Lakers won it all with below average defense, but they coasted during the regular season. It's possible, but just really really unlikely.


they are closest we have seen in recent days and they weren't terrible but unlike most teams they didn't use there offensive to set up D. When i team is good on offensive they can normally use that fact to keep the floor balanced and be set up on D. Solid offensive usually leads to better D. The Suns were a little different b/c they didn't give a **** if you ran on them. They didn't want the floor balanced on either end and invited a track meet.

PurpleLynch
08-17-2014, 08:44 AM
If you are horrible on defense you won't get that championship.
Suns tried hard(and they were one of the rare exceptions),trying to outscore and outrun teams,but the playoffs are too long for that kind of play.
On the other hand I think it's easier winning a championship without really good offense,but amazing defense,like Pistons in 2004,'90 Knicks who were really really close to that championship,1978 Blazers(4 freaking players on that team were in All-Defensive teams).

JasonJohnHorn
08-17-2014, 09:16 AM
The 03-05 Suns... had those suspensions not been handed out against the Spurs in the conference finals, they would have been champions that year... and they were looking pretty good the following seasons, but I think they would have had a harder time then.

Goose17
08-17-2014, 09:18 AM
Not in the West they can't, hence why people are overrating the mavs by having them top 5 out west.

Cal827
08-17-2014, 09:43 AM
Apologies to Knick fans for the troll threads by the OP.

Tofuz, what happened? You haven't been the same since you lost that account bet to ChillWill last spring. Lol, and don't act like this wasn't passive-aggressively directed at the Knicks. I think everybody knows through the rosters (as well as some post in the other threads), that the Knicks are likely to be really good on offense, but bad on defense.

Perhaps you are annoyed with the Knick fans hopes, but there isn't really anything wrong with them; they just want to see their team do well. Do you expect them all to say "oh, our team sucks, we'll be giving Denver a real nice pick this draft"?

They see the Division title as an attainable goal, as do many fans do with their teams (Other than Maybe Philly, where many of their fans think they're rebuilding). In the end, we'll see who takes the Atlantic division (and the other 5 for that matter), when the season starts.


Last year, you were mad that the Raptors didn't receive as much respect as you thought they should on the forums.... I'm not sure that these threads are exactly helping :laugh2:

nycericanguy
08-17-2014, 11:34 AM
Apologies to Knick fans for the troll threads by the OP.

Tofuz, what happened? You haven't been the same since you lost that account bet to ChillWill last spring. Lol, and don't act like this wasn't passive-aggressively directed at the Knicks. I think everybody knows through the rosters (as well as some post in the other threads), that the Knicks are likely to be really good on offense, but bad on defense.

Perhaps you are annoyed with the Knick fans hopes, but there isn't really anything wrong with them; they just want to see their team do well. Do you expect them all to say "oh, our team sucks, we'll be giving Denver a real nice pick this draft"?

They see the Division title as an attainable goal, as do many fans do with their teams (Other than Maybe Philly, where many of their fans think they're rebuilding). In the end, we'll see who takes the Atlantic division (and the other 5 for that matter), when the season starts.


Last year, you were mad that the Raptors didn't receive as much respect as you thought they should on the forums.... I'm not sure that these threads are exactly helping :laugh2:

I go into the TOR forum a lot b/c most of you guys are cool and the forum is active and was active even when TOR was awful, those are real fans to me.

but man we;ve had some TOR posters obsessed with NY for some reason, last year there were 3 TOR posters that were obsessed with Bargs and NY, now its this Doofus guy...lol

BTW Knicks already sent DEN their pick last year (#12)... so they have their own 1st rounder this year.

Cal827
08-17-2014, 11:45 AM
I go into the TOR forum a lot b/c most of you guys are cool and the forum is active and was active even when TOR was awful, those are real fans to me.

but man we;ve had some TOR posters obsessed with NY for some reason, last year there were 3 TOR posters that were obsessed with Bargs and NY, now its this Doofus guy...lol

BTW Knicks already sent DEN their pick last year (#12)... so they have their own 1st rounder this year.

My apologies on that error, I wasn't sure which picks you guys traded away. I know that Denver had the right to swap with a couple picks.... Now I look, and that's next year...

But to be fair... us Raptor fans all hate Bargnani... Maybe it's because our dumb*** previous GM kept trying to say that we can build around him as a franchise player.... and wouldn't ****ing let him go :laugh2:

Our hate for him was likely as big as your hate for Isiah Thomas.

nycericanguy
08-17-2014, 11:57 AM
My apologies on that error, I wasn't sure which picks you guys traded away. I know that Denver had the right to swap with a couple picks.... Now I look, and that's next year...

But to be fair... us Raptor fans all hate Bargnani... Maybe it's because our dumb*** previous GM kept trying to say that we can build around him as a franchise player.... and wouldn't ****ing let him go :laugh2:

Our hate for him was likely as big as your hate for Isiah Thomas.

DEN has swap rights on the 2016 pick, which is now your guys pick =(

So DEN will take the better pick of the NY/DEN pick in 2016 and TOR gets the other.

Chaotic98
08-17-2014, 12:35 PM
I specifically stated in the thread that I was genuinely asking if the knicks had more bench depth. Because it did seem that way, and I was questioning why they did so poorly the season ago because there some names on paper for that team's bench. I was never baiting, re-read my posts before your accuse.

I created an " ambiguous" thread because you're overthinking it. You're letting my past posts influence what could potentially be my point to a thread. To be honest, There's a poster named JordanBulls around here, and he's always thought of insightful topics to generate a discussion and I felt like this could be a topic of discussion, not to bait the knicks.

You need to stop overthinking and either contribute to a positive discussion or simply not post in it, I dont like having to reply to something offtopic when this thread isnt about poster vs poster. If you had some maturity as a person, you'd not feed the troll if I am apparently a troll.

I'm not over thinking, I am blatantly stating the obvious. There was nothing insightful about this thread, especially with the slogans and sport cliches of "defense wins championships", in the back of everyone's head.

There is nothing insightful in creating a thread based on a cut and paste of what one fan thinks. That's just baiting, plain and simple. You didn't offer a view, or a question, you just cut and pasted the most improbable Knicks fan scenario and ran with it.

"Feeding the troll" would be to continue to support the thread idea. I'm just pointing out what you are obviously doing. If you feel that I am calling you a troll, I have not said that, but you are baiting Knick fans in your last three thread posts.

Chaotic98
08-17-2014, 12:37 PM
DEN has swap rights on the 2016 pick, which is now your guys pick =(

So DEN will take the better pick of the NY/DEN pick in 2016 and TOR gets the other.

It will most likely be a 16-22nd pick, depending on how the Knicks and Nuggets do. I much would of had the Knicks pick this year :(

DenButsu
08-17-2014, 02:39 PM
Both NBA Finals winners and losers, on average (at least since 2002-03), have tended to have a higher ranking in defensive efficiency than offensive efficiency. That's not the final word on the subject, but at the very least it highlights the importance of having a good-to-great defense.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj258/denbutsu/NBAFinalsoff-defefficiencylastdecade_zps9e38550c.jpg

FriedTofuz
08-17-2014, 02:48 PM
Both NBA Finals winners and losers, on average (at least since 2002-03), have tended to have a higher ranking in defensive efficiency than offensive efficiency. That's not the final word on the subject, but at the very least it highlights the importance of having a good-to-great defense.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj258/denbutsu/NBAFinalsoff-defefficiencylastdecade_zps9e38550c.jpg

Thank you! That was ideally what I was looking for. It really boogles me to know that miami was ranked 17th for defensive rating and was able to overthrow the 67-win dallas mavericks.
Unless, is there some statistics on how good they were defensively during that particular series? maybe they turned it around.

All in all, I Guess a foundation of at l least top 8 in both categories to win a championship.

Seizabmc
08-17-2014, 03:02 PM
The suns with mike d , amare, Nash.

FriedTofuz
08-17-2014, 03:29 PM
The suns with mike d , amare, Nash.
That was one that came to my mind, but I thought with defenders like Marion and Kurt thomas, that they werent that bad, sort of like " middle of the pack" and not bottom 20/30 team for defensive rating?

jaydubb
08-18-2014, 01:30 AM
Offense can only take a team so far.. It can work for a team in the regular season(rare but can and has happened) but it will not work in the postseason.

Because of this I am interested to see the cavs this year and see how they do, that's a ton of offense and below average defense

Crackadalic
08-18-2014, 02:36 AM
To answer the OP question no

Second I have the raps winning the division anyway since they are they are last year's champs and have the better chemistry

Third the knicks will probably be where they were last year on defense but much better on offense. We were 11th in the league in offensive rating and that is with the horrible offensive slump we went through the first 2 months.

I wouldn't be shock to win the division if everything goes right but fighting for a playoff spot and actually competing with non of that off the court bull **** I saw last year is more reasonable for me

Besides it's all about 2015 that 24 million in cap space and borderline lottery to mid 1st rounder