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FriedTofuz
08-14-2014, 03:43 PM
I saw this in the knicks forum and i was wondering if we were delusional or if they were just being biased like most of us would be about our teams :confused:


There is no question that this team is better than last year's team. Just looking at the Atlantic Division, if we win, we are guaranteed a 4th seed regardless of the record. That being said, I think we will have a pretty decent, but not stellar record next season.

IMO, this is how it plays out in the Atlantic Division:

Knicks - Vastly improved. There is no reason this team cannot play close to as well as 2 years ago. 52 - 30

Toronto - Toronto will continue to play well, but unlike the Knicks, they really did not improve much over the summer. I see their record improving marginally this year. 50 - 32

Nets - Much worse. The loss of Pierce, Livingston, and Blatche has to be devastating. The return of the fragile Lopez will not offset this loss. Plus Williams has the nagging ankle issues and Johnson is another year closer to retirement. 37 - 45.

Celtics - Nice draft picks for the future, but no real change from last season. 32 - 50.

Philadelphia - This team is building a young and exciting core. But it is obvious that the team still wants one more high draft pick before it becomes relevant. 25 - 57

To me, the nail-biter will be between NY and Toronto. I give NY the slight edge because

1. I am a fan who is clearly prejudiced in favor of the Knicks and
2. We have Melo.
3. Overall:

Valenciunas > Any of our Centers
Johnson = Our Power Forwards
Ross <<<<< Melo
Lowry > Any of our Point Guards
Derozen > Any of our Shooting Guards
Toronto Depth < Knicks Depth

Toronto has
Lou Williams
Vasquez
Patterson

NO SF or C that's good?
I've watched Bebe play, he actually seemed like he would get better and play well, but at this point, I have hansbrough above him in our depth chart. As for James Johnson being our SF, I think his defense, rebounding, and playmaking will be helpful, dont expect him to score too much.

Vasquez> Larkin/Pringles guy
Williams >>Hardaway JR
Johnson< Jr Smith
Patterson < Amare
Hansborough< Bargnani

It seems like on paper, the knicks players have a better " name " to themselves, I just dont undersand why they performed so poorly, but their bench does look like it does have more depth than ours? THoughts? Thanks

North Yorker
08-14-2014, 03:52 PM
Knick fans think they're going to get to the ECF.

You do the math.

Sadds The Gr8
08-14-2014, 04:29 PM
People take what knick fans say seriously? They're the biggest homer fan base in sports.

nycericanguy
08-14-2014, 04:46 PM
Knick fans think they're going to get to the ECF.

You do the math.

Literally haven't even seen 1 Knick fan that has said that...lol

nycericanguy
08-14-2014, 04:49 PM
I saw this in the knicks forum and i was wondering if we were delusional or if they were just being biased like most of us would be about our teams :confused:



Toronto has
Lou Williams
Vasquez
Patterson

NO SF or C that's good?
I've watched Bebe play, he actually seemed like he would get better and play well, but at this point, I have hansbrough above him in our depth chart. As for James Johnson being our SF, I think his defense, rebounding, and playmaking will be helpful, dont expect him to score too much.

Vasquez> Larkin/Pringles guy
Williams >>Hardaway JR
Johnson< Jr Smith
Patterson < Amare
Hansborough< Bargnani

It seems like on paper, the knicks players have a better " name " to themselves, I just dont undersand why they performed so poorly, but their bench does look like it does have more depth than ours? THoughts? Thanks

Prior to last year they were 72-33 under Woodson, one of the top records in the NBA in that stretch... they were also 34 games over .500 with Melo, despite having Douglas, Fields and Jeffries as starters when Melo first came.

Last year was just an awful year full of distractions and everyone outside of Melo having career worst years, and the team just quit on Woodson.

People are putting too much stock into ONE bad year and acting like the Knicks are some awful team... literally no one has them even making the playoffs... but I like it like that.

Both teams are deep though, I personally think the Atlantic will be between NY & TOR.

North Yorker
08-14-2014, 05:12 PM
Literally haven't even seen 1 Knick fan that has said that...lol
Oh really? This is just from one thread

Exhibit A:

I think the Knicks have the potential to be a championship contender. Two years, the Knicks won 54 games and made it to the 2nd round of the playoffs. I can't see why they can't return there this season.

For the Knicks to do better, we need Amare Stoudemire and Andrea Bargnini to be healthy and be a strong presences in the middle with Samuel Dalembart. Last year, the duo of Bargs and Stoudemire proved to be strong. If they can stay healthy, I can't see why the Knicks can't get the championship round or even the Finals if our big men play well. We all know those are 2 BIG IFs.

Thoughts?


We don't have the D to be a contender but I think we will be closer to 2013 than 2014. In the East we can make a run to the ECF. I understand its summer league, but if our real squad can show half the togetherness and triangle-domination these guys are showing under the leadership of Phish, great things lie ahead.


If everything goes right in terms of health which is a big if I would say that ECF berth is realistic


Ha Ha.... I love that "Phish" reference. I think bad coaching lost us at least 10 games last season which would have put us at 47 wins not including Tyson's broken leg, Felton's broken hand and heart, Jr-Shump-Amare's combined knee sugeries and Bargnani's failed tomahawk dunk which led to him out for the season. We didn't get any momentum until the end of the season and by then it was too late.

With the Phish system in place, there will always be ball movement like there was in 2013 when Kidd was running point. Calderon is a ball mover and pusher like Kidd was and he is in his prime still. I can't remember the last time we had a good pg in his prime. Maybe Starbury but he had absolutely NO talent around him.

The Phish system has resulted in 11 championships so it must be something special and if you watched how the SL guys cut and slashed and got open looks from that system, guys like Melo, Jr., Amare, Bargs, THJ, Larkin, Early, Shump and even Thanasis if he sticks will thrive.

People keep talking about how bad our D is but we actually have better defenders on this young roster than we had last year and maybe even in the 54 win season.

I say Knicks finish 3rd in the East, 1st in the Atlantic.

1.Pacers
2.Cavs
3.Knicks
4.Miami
5.Bulls
6.Wizards
7.Raptors
8.Brooklyn


This is how I see the East this year barring no major injuries or big trades.......

We have a shot at the Finals.


50 wins if everyone buys into the triangle and an ECF birth


I think winning the Atlantic Division and secruing a 3 seed is very realistic. Im not sold on TO or Brooklyn. Learning the triangle wont be easy, especially considering the way that these guys are used to playing, but if we improve thru the season and hit the playoff on the up tick, i could see us in the conference finals. I just hope they are willing and able to play some of the kids as im anticpating a decent amount of roster turnover next offseason..........

And that was just the first 2 pgs of a 9 pg thread.

aman_13
08-14-2014, 05:14 PM
I think the Knicks will surprise people but their defense will hold them back imo.

FriedTofuz
08-14-2014, 05:16 PM
Oh really? This is just from one thread

Exhibit A:













And that was just the first 2 pgs of a 9 pg thread.

Damn. I thought I was trying to be unbiased but I guess some knick fans unfortunately bring down the reputation of some of their fans who are realistic. But yeah, seeing this makes me understand that the knicks keep living in the past and forget about the present and how other teams have just gotten better.

canzano55
08-14-2014, 05:18 PM
Prior to last year they were 72-33 under Woodson, one of the top records in the NBA in that stretch... they were also 34 games over .500 with Melo, despite having Douglas, Fields and Jeffries as starters when Melo first came.

Last year was just an awful year full of distractions and everyone outside of Melo having career worst years, and the team just quit on Woodson.

People are putting too much stock into ONE bad year and acting like the Knicks are some awful team... literally no one has them even making the playoffs... but I like it like that.

Both teams are deep though, I personally think the Atlantic will be between NY & TOR.Okay but it wasn't just a 'bad' year - it was an utter capitulation of such magnitude in comparison to previous seasons.

The question is what caused it? Yes bad luck exists in sport but you have to make your own luck as an organization (Raptors fans know this all to well) and it starts at head office. You're not making your own luck when you agree to trade for Andrea Bargnani, or when your entire offense is built around one player (Melo), or more importantly when your team can't play defense.

This Knicks franchise was set-up for failure and not just for one season - Knicks ownership has effectively shot both feet off by handing a 30 year old scoring champion an astronomical contract without any idea of how to surround that big contract player with the right team parts in order to win.

I mean forget about the upcoming season - is there even a plan in place for the available cap-space when STAT becomes a free agent? Will the Knicks actually use it constructively to build an actual roster with a bench or are they going to go hunting for overrated free agents like they always do?

My friend New York City is one of the greatest cities on earth with great people who love their Knicks but I'm telling you right now that the New York Knicks is the exact model of how not to run a franchise.

nycericanguy
08-14-2014, 05:19 PM
Oh really? This is just from one thread

Exhibit A:












And that was just the first 2 pgs of a 9 pg thread.

well i guess u kinda got me... but you said it as if KNick fans are thinking the knicks are a lock for the ECF.

Under the right circumstances if all goes well I could see us reaching the ECF... but i don't think 99% of Knick fans EXPECT that...

but show me a fan base that isn't optimistic before the season starts? if you're not going to be optimistic now then whats the point of being a fan? I don't think it's unreasonable to expect NY to bounce back, last year seems like an anomaly in the grand scheme of things...especially for Melo who had never missed the playoffs, had never had a losing record, and had his teams average close to 50 wins.

smith&wesson
08-14-2014, 05:23 PM
Williams, GVZ, Patman, JJ, Jordan Hamilton, Hansborough and even the fresh body Fields.

not even including the young Brazillians... our bench is gtg.

nycericanguy
08-14-2014, 05:25 PM
Okay but it wasn't just a 'bad' year - it was an utter capitulation of such magnitude in comparison to previous seasons.

The question is what caused it? Yes bad luck exists in sport but you have to make your own luck as an organization (Raptors fans know this all to well) and it starts at head office. You're not making your own luck when you agree to trade for Andrea Bargnani, or when your entire offense is built around one player (Melo), or more importantly when your team can't play defense.

This Knicks franchise was set-up for failure and not just for one season - Knicks ownership has effectively shot both feet off by handing a 30 year old scoring champion an astronomical contract without any idea of how to surround that big contract player with the right team parts in order to win.

I mean forget about the upcoming season - is there even a plan in place for the available cap-space when STAT becomes a free agent? Will the Knicks actually use it constructively to build an actual roster with a bench or are they going to go hunting for overrated free agents like they always do?

My friend New York City is one of the greatest cities on earth with great people who love their Knicks but I'm telling you right now that the New York Knicks is the exact model of how not to run a franchise.

Marc Gasol is the prime target... perfect triangle guy, and two way player.

I would agree for the most part but things have changed since PJ took over

FriedTofuz
08-14-2014, 05:26 PM
well i guess u kinda got me... but you said it as if KNick fans are thinking the knicks are a lock for the ECF.

Under the right circumstances if all goes well I could see us reaching the ECF... but i don't think 99% of Knick fans EXPECT that...

but show me a fan base that isn't optimistic before the season starts? if you're not going to be optimistic now then whats the point of being a fan? I don't think it's unreasonable to expect NY to bounce back, last year seems like an anomaly in the grand scheme of things...especially for Melo who had never missed the playoffs, had never had a losing record, and had his teams average close to 50 wins.

I know there's good reason for optimism, but the knicks are really unrealistic. Do they think they can go from missing the playoffs, to being even worse defensively to just suddenly bouncing back and getting to the ECF when teams like Toronto, Washington, Charlette, Chicago, and cleveland and Atlanta, are all improved compared to the year in which the knicks won 54 games??

I think a lot of knick fans dont consider this. they're unrealistic and that's why a lot of people stereotype knick fans as homers.

nycericanguy
08-14-2014, 05:32 PM
I know there's good reason for optimism, but the knicks are really unrealistic. Do they think they can go from missing the playoffs, to being even worse defensively to just suddenly bouncing back and getting to the ECF when teams like Toronto, Washington, Charlette, Chicago, and cleveland and Atlanta, are all improved compared to the year in which the knicks won 54 games??

I think a lot of knick fans dont consider this. they're unrealistic and that's why a lot of people stereotype knick fans as homers.

If you look at the NY prediction thread, most fans have NY at 37-47 wins... I don't see all the unrealistic posters you speak of. Saying we COULD make the ECF if all goes right isn't unrealistic, the same can be said for 5-6 other teams in the east.

Do TOR fans consider that the east was much weaker last year? and that they got career years from a few guys? Because most fans I see here have TOR winning MORE games this year even though the conf is tougher.

FriedTofuz
08-14-2014, 05:44 PM
If you look at the NY prediction thread, most fans have NY at 37-47 wins... I don't see all the unrealistic posters you speak of. Saying we COULD make the ECF if all goes right isn't unrealistic, the same can be said for 5-6 other teams in the east.

Do TOR fans consider that the east was much weaker last year? and that they got career years from a few guys? Because most fans I see here have TOR winning MORE games this year even though the conf is tougher.

I've looked at the prediction thread and most knick fans have said 45+
If I saw 37 wins as a prediction, I'd agree with those knick fans because those are realistic expectations.
Making the ECF is unrealistic, Even if rose was out for the rest of the season, the bobcats and heat are still better than the knicks to make the ECFs.

I understand the EC got stronger this year. And yeah I have noticed toronto fans thinking we'll win 50 games, it not tht much of an overestimate considering the team is top 10 offensively and defensively, and their record post rudy gay is 42-18. But I do know that the east has gotten a lot better, so I would say that some toronto fans are overrating them. I personally think the bobcats will be beter than the raptors, maybe even Miami is Wade and bosh can play better than most people remember.

But you just brought up a point that makes the knicks look worse. the east was soooooo weak, and yet the knicks could only win like 37 games and miss the playoffs. do knick fans think they can win even more than that after how much worse they got defensively and after how much better the rest of the east has gotten?

THJR/Calderon/JR smith/ Bargnani/ AMare are horrible defenders.
Even with shump on that team, tht team will suck defensively.

nycericanguy
08-14-2014, 05:48 PM
I've looked at the prediction thread and most knick fans have said 45+
If I saw 37 wins as a prediction, I'd agree with those knick fans because those are realistic expectations.
Making the ECF is unrealistic, Even if rose was out for the rest of the season, the bobcats and heat are still better than the knicks to make the ECFs.

I understand the EC got stronger this year. And yeah I have noticed toronto fans thinking we'll win 50 games, it not tht much of an overestimate considering the team is top 10 offensively and defensively, and their record post rudy gay is 42-18. But I do know that the east has gotten a lot better, so I would say that some toronto fans are overrating them. I personally think the bobcats will be beter than the raptors, maybe even Miami is Wade and bosh can play better than most people remember.

But you just brought up a point that makes the knicks look worse. the east was soooooo weak, and yet the knicks could only win like 37 games and miss the playoffs. do knick fans think they can win even more than that after how much worse they got defensively and after how much better the rest of the east has gotten?

THJR/Calderon/JR smith/ Bargnani/ AMare are horrible defenders.
Even with shump on that team, tht team will suck defensively.

45 wins isn't crazy, if you disagree fine...we shall see

I don't think everything will go wrong like last year... so yes I think they'll win more than 37.

North Yorker
08-14-2014, 05:52 PM
well i guess u kinda got me... but you said it as if KNick fans are thinking the knicks are a lock for the ECF.

Under the right circumstances if all goes well I could see us reaching the ECF... but i don't think 99% of Knick fans EXPECT that...

but show me a fan base that isn't optimistic before the season starts? if you're not going to be optimistic now then whats the point of being a fan? I don't think it's unreasonable to expect NY to bounce back, last year seems like an anomaly in the grand scheme of things...especially for Melo who had never missed the playoffs, had never had a losing record, and had his teams average close to 50 wins.

Every fan I quoted think they have a ECF quality team.

I find it pretty funny given that they're going to be atrocious defensively, are in the first year of a new system, rookie head coach, Calderon (who Knick fans are acting like is a savior given how bad Felton was) is soon to be 33 and saw his assist rate plummet last season, Dalembert is a 20 min/gm player, all their bigs are injury prone, etc.

It's like they are all ignoring these facts, and only focusing on Phil, Fisher, slimmer Melo and expecting to add 12-15 wins in a tougher Eastern Conference.

I get optimism but this is wayyy over the top.

FriedTofuz
08-14-2014, 05:53 PM
If everything goes right in terms of health which is a big if I would say that ECF berth is realistic


I think Phil, Fisher and the Triangle are going to cut up the competition.

I predict 50-55 wins. Then the playoffs becomes a game of matchups, health and luck.


We don't have the D to be a contender but I think we will be closer to 2013 than 2014. In the East we can make a run to the ECF. I understand its summer league, but if our real squad can show half the togetherness and triangle-domination these guys are showing under the leadership of Phish, great things lie ahead.


7th seed 47 wins. We will be a dark house in the playoffs since the triangle is built for the playoffs


I think if we get 47 wins we will be higher then the 7th seed


I think we were gonna win the Atlantic division.

The Celtics and Sixers are rebuilding and the Nets are crumbling... Lionel Hollins is too strong a coach for Williams who couldn't handle Avery Johnson


Ha Ha.... I love that "Phish" reference. I think bad coaching lost us at least 10 games last season which would have put us at 47 wins not including Tyson's broken leg, Felton's broken hand and heart, Jr-Shump-Amare's combined knee sugeries and Bargnani's failed tomahawk dunk which led to him out for the season. We didn't get any momentum until the end of the season and by then it was too late.

With the Phish system in place, there will always be ball movement like there was in 2013 when Kidd was running point. Calderon is a ball mover and pusher like Kidd was and he is in his prime still. I can't remember the last time we had a good pg in his prime. Maybe Starbury but he had absolutely NO talent around him.

The Phish system has resulted in 11 championships so it must be something special and if you watched how the SL guys cut and slashed and got open looks from that system, guys like Melo, Jr., Amare, Bargs, THJ, Larkin, Early, Shump and even Thanasis if he sticks will thrive.

People keep talking about how bad our D is but we actually have better defenders on this young roster than we had last year and maybe even in the 54 win season.

I say Knicks finish 3rd in the East, 1st in the Atlantic.

1.Pacers
2.Cavs
3.Knicks
4.Miami
5.Bulls
6.Wizards
7.Raptors
8.Brooklyn


This is how I see the East this year barring no major injuries or big trades.......

We have a shot at the Finals.


:laugh2: I think the last post is a great representation of homerism.
He has the knicks over the BULLS, RAPTORS, WIZARDS, AND HORNETS? OH AND THE HEAT?
Damn.

If a mod can close this thread, that'd be great, I didnt realize it was homerism, but I actually thought maybe we were being unfair to the knicks, but nope. I have to agree with what saddler said earlier, i didnt realize the knicks expectations were so optimistic and unrealistic.

nycericanguy
08-14-2014, 05:56 PM
:laugh2:

boy you realllly hate NY... why do you care so much if some fans think NY can make the ECF if all goes right?

FriedTofuz
08-14-2014, 05:59 PM
I dont hate NY at all, In fact, Im one of the few people actually willing to listen and hear waht knick fans have to say about their team and find reasons for why they struggled. I agree with what the fans are saying in regards to being unlucky with injuries and coaching being an issue, but regardless, the eastern conference is revamped and stronger than when the knicks when 54 games. they need to be more realistic. That's all.
It's funny because it's as if people are brainless if they think the ECF are in reach for the knicks.

KnicksYanks
08-14-2014, 06:04 PM
Oh really? This is just from one thread

Exhibit A:












And that was just the first 2 pgs of a 9 pg thread.

I said if everything goes right. I did not say I expect them there

FriedTofuz
08-14-2014, 06:06 PM
What exactly is " everything goes right"

for everything to go right, ever team in the east will need to have a significant injury for the knicks to remotely have a chance at winning 45 games in the east. Smh

Freakazoid
08-14-2014, 06:07 PM
I think they have a decent chance of being a top offensive team but they're going to be a historically bad defensive team.

North Yorker
08-14-2014, 06:14 PM
I said if everything goes right. I did not say I expect them there

You said:


If everything goes right in terms of health which is a big if I would say that ECF berth is realistic


Which means you think if your roster stays healthy it's "realistic" for you to get to the ECF.

Do you not expect "realistic" expectations? :eyebrow:

Chaotic98
08-14-2014, 06:44 PM
I said if everything goes right. I did not say I expect them there

They will probably finish somewhere between 7-9.
They have a better "name" bench, the Raptors have a more efficient bench

KnicksYanks
08-14-2014, 06:53 PM
Healthy meaning everyone plays more than 70 games. That way all players can develop chemistry in the new system and learn it.

Over the past years the knicks have been hit with big injuries which stopped their development

albertajaysfan
08-14-2014, 06:59 PM
They will probably finish somewhere between 7-9.
They have a better "name" bench, the Raptors have a more efficient bench

Totally agree. They have a great name bench. But if any fan base knows exactly what Bargnani brings to the table it is Raps fans.

I like what Phil has done so far. As long as Dolan stays out of his way next offseason I foresee them having a great one. But I think this season should be about integrating their young pieces that will be around after this season. You guys actually have your own draft pick this year as well. Going for it this year is actually a ridiculous idea for that team IMO.

They should be trying to add a solid player from the lottery to go along with the potential free agent acquisitions they will be able to make to really take a huge leap next year.

Jay_Dub
08-14-2014, 07:59 PM
Don't think we need a thread to counter a few Knick fans opinions. They are going to be a good offensive team but a horrible defensive team. Remember when we had Calderon and Bargs on the same team? How did that work out for us?

deaner
08-14-2014, 08:04 PM
Please don't stop the Knick fans from making their predictions. It's one if my greatest sources of joy to go over to that forum and read game threads. It seems to be the same every year... They are putting together an elderly version of our roster from 4 years ago and expect to be good. The latest joke is they expect Jose to add value to a triangle offense. Jose doesn't play with multiple options, he pounds the ball waiting for the perfect moment. I just can't see triangle ball movement with him and Melo on the floor. Add JR smith for extra spice.

Jay_Dub
08-14-2014, 08:09 PM
I think their offense will be fine. Calderon can fill the Paxton/D Fish role in the triangle. He will spot up and move the ball. It might take a bit of time... but I think Melo will be fine too. It the other end of the floor where I think they will struggle.

pulzar
08-14-2014, 08:13 PM
Even Melo says they have a lot of work ahead of them, and that fans needs to moderate their expectations for this year. It's clear that they are going to play this year out, let the bad contracts expire, and have Jackson build a new team the year after. I'm a little worried about how good that team could be...

But for next year? Nah.

As for the comment on "aren't all fans optimistic"... yeah, well, we have a lot of optimistic Raps fans here, too, but I'm not hearing about ECF being realistic. I think the most optimistic fans have us as 3rd best in the east, and that will likely result in a strong showing, and loss to Cleveland or Chicago in the 2nd round.

Or, I could pull a "if all goes well" clause, which in this case means an injury to Rose, and a few others, and then ECF is realistic :).

mike_noodles
08-14-2014, 09:38 PM
I would say the Raptors have better depth. Who else do the Knicks have after Bargs and Stoudemire since you know those are both 50 game per season type of players. They're going to have to lean more on their 11th and 12th guys more than other teams may have to.

Chaotic98
08-14-2014, 09:54 PM
I would say the Raptors have better depth. Who else do the Knicks have after Bargs and Stoudemire since you know those are both 50 game per season type of players. They're going to have to lean more on their 11th and 12th guys more than other teams may have to.

Agree. I will say I liked their depth pick up of Outlaw and Acy for what they gave up, but they aren't known much for their scoring and I doubt any see many minutes until someone gets hurt.

I really hope I get to see at least once all these players on the court at the same time... Bargs, Stat, Melo, Smith, Calderon. That would be an interesting offensive display, and an even more comical defensive show.

Sanyo
08-14-2014, 11:37 PM
Knicks will be marginally better, maybe battle the Nets for 8th in the conference but come on, no way they are taking the division from Toronto

Toronto is taking the Atlantic again this year.

Sanyo
08-14-2014, 11:38 PM
I would say the Raptors have better depth. Who else do the Knicks have after Bargs and Stoudemire since you know those are both 50 game per season type of players. They're going to have to lean more on their 11th and 12th guys more than other teams may have to.

agreed, no way they are playing full seasons...

FriedTofuz
08-14-2014, 11:39 PM
Healthy meaning everyone plays more than 70 games. That way all players can develop chemistry in the new system and learn it.

Over the past years the knicks have been hit with big injuries which stopped their development

Well that's the knicks fault. Amare had bad medical history and he was old and the knicks were desperate for a Free agent in 2010 and threw big money even knowing the potential negative outcomes. No excuses.

FriedTofuz
08-14-2014, 11:40 PM
Don't think we need a thread to counter a few Knick fans opinions. They are going to be a good offensive team but a horrible defensive team. Remember when we had Calderon and Bargs on the same team? How did that work out for us?

I didnt make a thread to counter a few knick fan opinions.
When I made the thread, It was because I genuinely was unsure of our depth when a knick fan made a comment. I honestly didnt understand why on paper, the knicks werent a succsesful team, because their bench does look better on paper, but they're never healthy.
Overall, I think the thread could be pulled down at this point, it's obvious that knick fans just overrate their team, they do it every year. They have abetter bench on paper than us but are never healthy.

FriedTofuz
08-14-2014, 11:42 PM
People who say " your team is lucky because of no injuries" clearly dont undestand that injuries are apart of sports. GOod teams go through injuries and still come out on top, it's called DEPTH. you need DEPTH, so just because the raptors were healthy doesnt mean they didnt hve depth. WE have more depth than last season so I expect derozan and lowry's minutes to go down, keep them fresh for the playoffs. 33 min at max.

Sadds The Gr8
08-15-2014, 11:54 AM
Their starting frontcourt is Mr. Glass Amare ****in Stoudemire, and Mr. Useless Andrea Bargnani. They'll be playing with Melo and Jose a ton as well (if Amare can even stay healthy). Do ppl know how pathetic that defense is? Take 5 ppl in this forum and we can drop 120 on that squad.


Plus who's scoring for that team on offense? Who's the 2nd option? Amare is a lock for 50> games so I don't even wanna see his name brought up as consistent #2 guy. Wackass Jr Smith?

Like I've said, that team will be lucky to get the 8th seed. Phil Jackson being a gm doesn't just magically make a team a contender. Hell, their coach hasn't even coached before

canzano55
08-15-2014, 12:07 PM
Even Melo says they have a lot of work ahead of them, and that fans needs to moderate their expectations for this year. It's clear that they are going to play this year out, let the bad contracts expire, and have Jackson build a new team the year after. I'm a little worried about how good that team could be...
But for next year? Nah.

As for the comment on "aren't all fans optimistic"... yeah, well, we have a lot of optimistic Raps fans here, too, but I'm not hearing about ECF being realistic. I think the most optimistic fans have us as 3rd best in the east, and that will likely result in a strong showing, and loss to Cleveland or Chicago in the 2nd round.

Or, I could pull a "if all goes well" clause, which in this case means an injury to Rose, and a few others, and then ECF is realistic :).I think people need to be worried about what Masai can do. Masai is more proven than half the GM's in the league (at least) and knows how to evaluate talent (especially young talent).

I never thought hoping for an ECF/Finals was ever possible after all these years post Vince but with Masai and Leweike at the helm I'm starting to think its possible.

Jay_Dub
08-15-2014, 01:38 PM
I didnt make a thread to counter a few knick fan opinions.
When I made the thread, It was because I genuinely was unsure of our depth when a knick fan made a comment. I honestly didnt understand why on paper, the knicks werent a succsesful team, because their bench does look better on paper, but they're never healthy.
Overall, I think the thread could be pulled down at this point, it's obvious that knick fans just overrate their team, they do it every year. They have abetter bench on paper than us but are never healthy.

Fair enough. I think another thing to look at is the chemistry of our team that goes ten deep. Our bench plays great together and Masai has done a great job of getting players that compliment each other. Masai did well to keep that intact by signing Vasquez and PP. A HUGE part of the Knicks previous success was Jason Kidd.... even though he couldn't hit a shot in his last year he was big in terms of leadership, character and ball movement.

FriedTofuz
08-15-2014, 02:18 PM
Fair enough. I think another thing to look at is the chemistry of our team that goes ten deep. Our bench plays great together and Masai has done a great job of getting players that compliment each other. Masai did well to keep that intact by signing Vasquez and PP. A HUGE part of the Knicks previous success was Jason Kidd.... even though he couldn't hit a shot in his last year he was big in terms of leadership, character and ball movement.

THat is true, although we didnt make many moves besides upgrading Salmons --> Lou williams, and signing James Johnson, we didnt have any other major additions. I just dont recall the last time a team who pretty much just kept their roaster intact, doing better the next year, or achieving almost the same record the year following.

Chaotic98
08-15-2014, 02:34 PM
Their starting frontcourt is Mr. Glass Amare ****in Stoudemire, and Mr. Useless Andrea Bargnani. They'll be playing with Melo and Jose a ton as well (if Amare can even stay healthy). Do ppl know how pathetic that defense is?

I don't think both Stat or Bargs will be starting many games together. They will probably use Dalembert at C with either Stat or Bargs at PF and the other off the bench, probably Bargs.

Sadds The Gr8
08-15-2014, 02:34 PM
I don't think both Stat or Bargs will be starting many games together. They will probably use Dalembert at C with either Stat or Bargs at PF and the other off the bench, probably Bargs.
Dalembert is even more laughable. Dude is a straight scrub at this point. He's been trash like the last 4 years

Chaotic98
08-15-2014, 02:38 PM
Dalembert is even more laughable. Dude is a straight scrub at this point. He's been trash like the last 4 years

He's still a better defensive option than Bargs to start a game,

FriedTofuz
08-15-2014, 02:41 PM
Knick Fans are delusional, but it's funny, if you're ever feeling stressed, just read their " expectations for the season" thread, the first page is jokes.

Sadds The Gr8
08-15-2014, 02:43 PM
He's still a better defensive option than Bargs to start a game,
Not sayin much...That's like being the least smelling piece of **** on the farm.

Mavs defense last year was garbage and he was the starting C. Not saying that was all his fault but he didn't help...

nycericanguy
08-15-2014, 03:04 PM
Not sayin much...That's like being the least smelling piece of **** on the farm.

Mavs defense last year was garbage and he was the starting C. Not saying that was all his fault but he didn't help...

And Calderon was their starting PG, and they won 50 games out west and nearly took out the Spurs.

Knicks actually have a similar roster. JR Smith & Ellis are similar... Dirk & Melo are the scoring PF's.

But I'm pretty sure Jason Smith will start at C... underrated signing. Big young C that can defend, pass and knock down the open shots. PJ really liked him, seems like a good C in the triangle... Cole Aldrich too will surprise, he's matured since his OKC days. Knicks are fine at C with those 3, and Amare and Bargs can play C as well.

nycericanguy
08-15-2014, 03:06 PM
Knick Fans are delusional, but it's funny, if you're ever feeling stressed, just read their " expectations for the season" thread, the first page is jokes.

You're still going on about this?...lol... I even saw about 25 anti-Knick posts aboutt he same subject in the NBA forum from you...

Yes most Knick fans think NY can win 45+ games this year, I have no idea why that's bothering you so much, you even created a thread in the TOR forum about it!... :laugh:

Jay_Dub
08-15-2014, 03:15 PM
THat is true, although we didnt make many moves besides upgrading Salmons --> Lou williams, and signing James Johnson, we didnt have any other major additions. I just dont recall the last time a team who pretty much just kept their roaster intact, doing better the next year, or achieving almost the same record the year following.

Well keep in mind that half the year we had Rudy Gay and our record was pretty bad. Our record after the trade was one of the best in the league in I'm not mistaken. I also expect big things from Jonas. I don't expect him to be a world beater... but I have watched a couple of Lithuania games over the past couple of weeks and he is looking good. Mind you against inferior competition... but he is looking quicker and more confident. He's shooting like 80% from the field or something. Not too sure what to expect from Ross... and Lou Williams is a question mark as well... but only time will tell.

Sadds The Gr8
08-15-2014, 03:16 PM
And Calderon was their starting PG, and they won 50 games out west and nearly took out the Spurs.

Knicks actually have a similar roster. JR Smith & Ellis are similar... Dirk & Melo are the scoring PF's.

But I'm pretty sure Jason Smith will start at C... underrated signing. Big young C that can defend, pass and knock down the open shots. PJ really liked him, seems like a good C in the triangle... Cole Aldrich too will surprise, he's matured since his OKC days. Knicks are fine at C with those 3, and Amare and Bargs can play C as well.
Monta Ellis is much better than Jr Smith. And I don't see a Harris, Marion or Vince on that team.

Not to mention a top 3 coach in the league

nycericanguy
08-15-2014, 03:26 PM
Monta Ellis is much better than Jr Smith. And I don't see a Harris, Marion or Vince on that team.

Not to mention a top 3 coach in the league

I wouldn't say MUCH better... they both are about the same efficiency wise... Monta turns it over a ton more though and is undersized. It's a toss up, but I prefer Smith's size and 3pt shooting and lack of TO's.

Shump is the defender like Marion...

Of course the rosters aren't EXACT...lol.. but they are similar. DAL didn't have a big man like Amare either.

Sadds The Gr8
08-15-2014, 03:40 PM
I wouldn't say MUCH better... they both are about the same efficiency wise... Monta turns it over a ton more though and is undersized. It's a toss up, but I prefer Smith's size and 3pt shooting and lack of TO's.

Shump is the defender like Marion...

Of course the rosters aren't EXACT...lol.. but they are similar. DAL didn't have a big man like Amare either.

Well last year Monta was much better than Smith and shumpert is garbage. I'm tired of the hyping he's been getting. I paid attention to him a lot and he was trash for the most part. Most overrated prospect in the league by far.

FriedTofuz
08-15-2014, 04:07 PM
You're still going on about this?...lol... I even saw about 25 anti-Knick posts aboutt he same subject in the NBA forum from you...

Yes most Knick fans think NY can win 45+ games this year, I have no idea why that's bothering you so much, you even created a thread in the TOR forum about it!... :laugh:

I created a thread cus I actually thought the knicks on paper, do have a better bench than the raptors. I was asking a legitimate question and not trying to promote hate towards the knicks. but after seeing the kind of comments about their team and all the overhyping, it got very annoying and I become less diplomatic about the knicks and now even generalize their fans because of how consistently delusional most are.

FriedTofuz
08-15-2014, 04:07 PM
Shumpert is very overrated. I dont understand what is so good about that kid, he has defensive potential but has been trash.

FriedTofuz
08-15-2014, 04:17 PM
Monta is a lot better than JR smith, he's a 20/6/4 player.

nycericanguy
08-15-2014, 04:59 PM
I created a thread cus I actually thought the knicks on paper, do have a better bench than the raptors. I was asking a legitimate question and not trying to promote hate towards the knicks. but after seeing the kind of comments about their team and all the overhyping, it got very annoying and I become less diplomatic about the knicks and now even generalize their fans because of how consistently delusional most are.

I'm sure Knick fans all over the world are very disappointed that you have come to this conclusion.

Get over yourself dude... you've been posting non stop for days in every forum about how much the knicks suck... we get it, you don't like them...

even your own fanbase is saying this thread is un-necessary

who makes a thread in their own team forum about something another fan from another team said?...lol

smith&wesson
08-15-2014, 05:02 PM
Their starting frontcourt is Mr. Glass Amare ****in Stoudemire, and Mr. Useless Andrea Bargnani. They'll be playing with Melo and Jose a ton as well (if Amare can even stay healthy). Do ppl know how pathetic that defense is? Take 5 ppl in this forum and we can drop 120 on that squad.


Plus who's scoring for that team on offense? Who's the 2nd option? Amare is a lock for 50> games so I don't even wanna see his name brought up as consistent #2 guy. Wackass Jr Smith?

Like I've said, that team will be lucky to get the 8th seed. Phil Jackson being a gm doesn't just magically make a team a contender. Hell, their coach hasn't even coached before

I would say the current knicks are the most poorly constructed team in the entire league. They are the laughing stock of the nba.

Friedtofuz basically got in to a pissing match with a knicks fan and decided to make a new thread about it.

Who cares if they have a better bench when their startiving 5 is

jose tobleron,
JR stiff
Black hole Melo
amare wheel chair staudamire,
primo pasta and sauce,

all the depth in the world couldnt help that team.

R. Johnson#3
08-15-2014, 05:28 PM
Who do the Knicks have on their entire roster that can play reasonable defense? Not even good defense. Reasonable defense.

Chaotic98
08-15-2014, 05:36 PM
Who do the Knicks have on their entire roster that can play reasonable defense? Not even good defense. Reasonable defense.

Derek Fisher :rolleyes:

smith&wesson
08-15-2014, 06:06 PM
Who do the Knicks have on their entire roster that can play reasonable defense? Not even good defense. Reasonable defense.

Iman Shumpert

k3n2s1
08-15-2014, 06:18 PM
It's unfair of most people to paint the typical Knick fan as completely delusional, as it's not the case. You could easily pick out people from any forum that our homers about their teams (I'm sure I can make quick work of it here as well). Our fanbase may probably have more enthusiastic homers lol, but it unfair to generalize and say that we're all delusional. I as a Knick fan, most certainly know that I am not.

I would say most Knick fans don't expect to win the division this year, as it is their first year in a new system and we don't have all the pieces to fit that system quite yet. Do we have an outside shot? Yes, but unlikely at that. I'm pretty confident in saying that we will be in the playoffs though, likely as a 7th seed with 42-44 wins, behind the likes of the Bulls, Cavs, Wizards, Raptors, Heat and Hornets.

As for the Raptors depth? FriedTofuz and other Raptors fans do have reason to be concerned. You have absolutely no depth behind SG/SF, especially when you consider that you don't really have an idea of what Terrence Ross is as of yet. As a Knicks fan, I can tell you that Landry will step up to give you a good game sometimes but is mostly trash. Lou Williams could be a very solid 6th man for you, but he's 6'1". You'll have trouble using him as a backup SG if that's your plan. You're set up great at PG if Lowry takes a step back, as Vasquez is no slouch himself.

You don't have terrific big men as backups either, but you do have solid ones. Patrick Patterson is solid and as you all have seen, Hansbrough is nothing special. Chuck Hayes is a great intangibles guy but not much more.

So your depth is definitely not great. Terrence Ross has to step up and progress and Valanciunas needs to build on a solid year if you want to make noise in the playoffs this year. You guys have reason to be excited this year, but those youngns need to step up.

North Yorker
08-15-2014, 06:37 PM
It's unfair of most people to paint the typical Knick fan as completely delusional, as it's not the case. You could easily pick out people from any forum that our homers about their teams (I'm sure I can make quick work of it here as well). Our fanbase may probably have more enthusiastic homers lol, but it unfair to generalize and say that we're all delusional. I as a Knick fan, most certainly know that I am not.

I would say most Knick fans don't expect to win the division this year, as it is their first year in a new system and we don't have all the pieces to fit that system quite yet. Do we have an outside shot? Yes, but unlikely at that. I'm pretty confident in saying that we will be in the playoffs though, likely as a 7th seed with 42-44 wins, behind the likes of the Bulls, Cavs, Wizards, Raptors, Heat and Hornets.

As for the Raptors depth? FriedTofuz and other Raptors fans do have reason to be concerned. You have absolutely no depth behind SG/SF, especially when you consider that you don't really have an idea of what Terrence Ross is as of yet. As a Knicks fan, I can tell you that Landry will step up to give you a good game sometimes but is mostly trash. Lou Williams could be a very solid 6th man for you, but he's 6'1". You'll have trouble using him as a backup SG if that's your plan. You're set up great at PG if Lowry takes a step back, as Vasquez is no slouch himself.

You don't have terrific big men as backups either, but you do have solid ones. Patrick Patterson is solid and as you all have seen, Hansbrough is nothing special. Chuck Hayes is a great intangibles guy but not much more.

So your depth is definitely not great. Terrence Ross has to step up and progress and Valanciunas needs to build on a solid year if you want to make noise in the playoffs this year. You guys have reason to be excited this year, but those youngns need to step up.

Thanks for the well reasoned write-up.

A few things, a lot of us (well at least I am) are very happy to have James Johnson back. He will be the main back-up SF (and will get the odd mins at PF if needed) and is an elite defender. Fills a huge upgrade for us from Salmons.

Fields will see zero playing time this year.

Our bench has a pretty balanced lineup.

Vasquez- shooter/creator (also 6'6", which helps offset the height of Lou if they play together)
L.Williams- scorer
Johnson- best defender on the team, not a great shooter but doesn't need to be with this lineup.
Patterson- stretch 4
Nogueira/Amir/Hayes- defensive big

Honestly don't see Lou Williams getting much time either. Casey will probably continue with the Lowry/Vasquez back court for stretches of game like last season, Ross can also take some minutes at SG behind DeRozan.

ChongInc.
08-15-2014, 07:32 PM
i dont even think they will gain any cap space from STAT's contract expiring because of how the cap is structured. i could be wrong though.

Chaotic98
08-15-2014, 07:45 PM
i dont even think they will gain any cap space from STAT's contract expiring because of how the cap is structured. i could be wrong though.

They will have cap space since they will lose 45 mil in contracts next year, 48 if they renounce Shumpert, with the highlights being Stat at 23.5 and Bargs at 11.5. They should have up to 18 million in cap space at this point. I'd expect them to go after Marc Gasol, which means their bench will be thin.

FriedTofuz
08-16-2014, 02:57 AM
the knicks when healthy are the best team in the eastern conference man.

east fb knicks
08-16-2014, 04:30 AM
on paper we have more depth but injuries occur imo ther isn't a team favored to win the atl right now I just pick the knicks cuz we have more talent then you guys but until the season starts who knows I just can't wait for the season to start

the raptors are very weak at the 4 spot amir Johnson Patterson jj hansbrough is not better than amare bargs acy smith a healthy amare is a handful the knicks finished the season 16 6 including beating the raptors twice in that stretch

nycericanguy
08-16-2014, 09:20 AM
the knicks when healthy are the best team in the eastern conference man.

were you really in the KNick forum at 2:30 in the morning still talking about how bad the Knicks are?...:speechless:

EDIT: wow you even started yet another Knick bashing thread in the NBA forum?... WHat's the point in asking for opinions on something if you obviously already have your mind made up and a strong bias/hate toward it?

ink
08-16-2014, 01:08 PM
well i guess u kinda got me... but you said it as if KNick fans are thinking the knicks are a lock for the ECF.

Under the right circumstances if all goes well I could see us reaching the ECF... but i don't think 99% of Knick fans EXPECT that...

but show me a fan base that isn't optimistic before the season starts? if you're not going to be optimistic now then whats the point of being a fan? I don't think it's unreasonable to expect NY to bounce back, last year seems like an anomaly in the grand scheme of things...especially for Melo who had never missed the playoffs, had never had a losing record, and had his teams average close to 50 wins.

Every fan I quoted think they have a ECF quality team.

I find it pretty funny given that they're going to be atrocious defensively, are in the first year of a new system, rookie head coach, Calderon (who Knick fans are acting like is a savior given how bad Felton was) is soon to be 33 and saw his assist rate plummet last season, Dalembert is a 20 min/gm player, all their bigs are injury prone, etc.

It's like they are all ignoring these facts, and only focusing on Phil, Fisher, slimmer Melo and expecting to add 12-15 wins in a tougher Eastern Conference.

I get optimism but this is wayyy over the top.

I haven't even once considered NYK to be anything but transitional this year. PJ has so much work ahead of him.

FriedTofuz
08-16-2014, 01:31 PM
were you really in the KNick forum at 2:30 in the morning still talking about how bad the Knicks are?...:speechless:

EDIT: wow you even started yet another Knick bashing thread in the NBA forum?... WHat's the point in asking for opinions on something if you obviously already have your mind made up and a strong bias/hate toward it?

Actually, what I initially did was put the opinions of what knicks fans have been saying about theasir projected out come for the season in the nba orum, and see if people agreed. It does make sense why the knicks could improve, and it explains why they struggled, but i wanted to see if others could see knicks fans perspectives. Eventually east fb knicks has been a troll and I was just being sarcastic with some of my posts about the knicks winnning the ship Lol. I'm 3 hrs behind that, it wasnt 230 in the morning.

FriedTofuz
08-16-2014, 01:39 PM
on paper we have more depth but injuries occur imo ther isn't a team favored to win the atl right now I just pick the knicks cuz we have more talent then you guys but until the season starts who knows I just can't wait for the season to start

the raptors are very weak at the 4 spot amir Johnson Patterson jj hansbrough is not better than amare bargs acy smith a healthy amare is a handful the knicks finished the season 16 6 including beating the raptors twice in that stretch

I'd agree so to an extent. Amare and bargnani have better names to them than amir and patterson, but both amir and patterson actually rebound and play defense. Patterson was also deadly( 40%) from 3pt, and amir has been injured all season and played through it.

Chaotic98
08-16-2014, 03:12 PM
on paper we have more depth but injuries occur imo ther isn't a team favored to win the atl right now I just pick the knicks cuz we have more talent then you guys but until the season starts who knows I just can't wait for the season to start

the raptors are very weak at the 4 spot amir Johnson Patterson jj hansbrough is not better than amare bargs acy smith a healthy amare is a handful the knicks finished the season 16 6 including beating the raptors twice in that stretch

The Raptors are weakest at the 3 and 4, but the Knicks are weakest at the 1, 2 and 5. They have too many holes and they will be evident once the yearly injury bug comes for Stat and Bargs.

bucketss
08-16-2014, 04:43 PM
am i being a homer if i said 2 pat> amare, and hansborough > barf?

mike_noodles
08-16-2014, 05:54 PM
am i being a homer if i said 2 pat> amare, and hansborough > barf?

The Knicks guys have more talent, no question. The question for both is health. And effort and intensity as well for Bargs even if he's healthy.

killersweet
08-16-2014, 07:01 PM
on paper we have more depth but injuries occur imo ther isn't a team favored to win the atl right now I just pick the knicks cuz we have more talent then you guys but until the season starts who knows I just can't wait for the season to start

the raptors are very weak at the 4 spot amir Johnson Patterson jj hansbrough is not better than amare bargs acy smith a healthy amare is a handful the knicks finished the season 16 6 including beating the raptors twice in that stretch

I beg to differ. Bargnani is your curse. He will not only injure himself, but will bring the injury curse to your entire team.

Raps_93
08-16-2014, 07:28 PM
hhahhahahahhaha

east fb knicks
08-16-2014, 09:44 PM
I beg to differ. Bargnani is your curse. He will not only injure himself, but will bring the injury curse to your entire team.

lmao all jokes aside bargs is actually a perfect fit to the triangle him and amare will be the x factors to see if weare a really good team

Chaotic98
08-16-2014, 09:52 PM
lmao all jokes aside bargs is actually a perfect fit to the triangle him and amare will be the x factors to see if weare a really good team

I would like whatever you're smoking.

east fb knicks
08-16-2014, 10:20 PM
I would like whatever you're smoking.

YOU CAN'T AFFORD IT :p

but seriously bargs is good on offense and bad on d his skill set fits the triangle like a glove even p jax said it him self

bucketss
08-16-2014, 10:47 PM
am i being a homer if i said 2 pat> amare, and hansborough > barf?

actually i don't think im being a homer both amir and pat are better than those guys - amare if hes healthy than we can have a discussion, but bargnani is definitely the worse of all players mentioned.

deaner
08-16-2014, 10:54 PM
YOU CAN'T AFFORD IT :p

but seriously bargs is good on offense and bad on d his skill set fits the triangle like a glove even p jax said it him self

Phil tried to unload Bargnani this summer but ya.... He's really excited Bargs took the money.

Sadds The Gr8
08-16-2014, 11:04 PM
How on earth are the Knicks deeper than the raptors? They don't even have a backup pg and their bigs are awful. Amare is injury prone, as is barfnani who sucks period. Sammy d is a scrub and has been for like 5 yrs

mike_noodles
08-16-2014, 11:25 PM
YOU CAN'T AFFORD IT :p

but seriously bargs is good on offense and bad on d his skill set fits the triangle like a glove even p jax said it him self

He may, but he's also pretty slow to figure things out and never really seemed motivated. If Fisher can get the best out of him he'll fit.

east fb knicks
08-17-2014, 06:20 AM
actually i don't think im being a homer both amir and pat are better than those guys - amare if hes healthy than we can have a discussion, but bargnani is definitely the worse of all players mentioned.

that's the whole point bro amare is healthy finally the knicks finished the season 16 6 with amare in the starting 5

bargs can be be good but he can also suck but you overlooked the other players I named

acy is an energy good defensive guy he played for the raps you guys should know him he's the perfect big next to melo but his offense sux but unlike bargs he's a good defender

Jason smith is another good big he started for the pelicans some games last year and might even end up being our starting 5 but he can play the 4 too

outside of hans pat amir the raps don't have any more 4's ntm that trio is probably the weakest combination in the east

deaner
08-17-2014, 09:44 AM
that's the whole point bro amare is healthy finally the knicks finished the season 16 6 with amare in the starting 5

bargs can be be good but he can also suck but you overlooked the other players I named

acy is an energy good defensive guy he played for the raps you guys should know him he's the perfect big next to melo but his offense sux but unlike bargs he's a good defender

Jason smith is another good big he started for the pelicans some games last year and might even end up being our starting 5 but he can play the 4 too

outside of hans pat amir the raps don't have any more 4's ntm that trio is probably the weakest combination in the east

Wow. Being lectured on the qualities of Bargnani Jose and Q from Knick fans is one thing... But to say our PF depth is the weakest in the east is laughable.

ink
08-17-2014, 11:15 AM
actually i don't think im being a homer both amir and pat are better than those guys - amare if hes healthy than we can have a discussion, but bargnani is definitely the worse of all players mentioned.

that's the whole point bro amare is healthy finally the knicks finished the season 16 6 with amare in the starting 5

bargs can be be good but he can also suck but you overlooked the other players I named

acy is an energy good defensive guy he played for the raps you guys should know him he's the perfect big next to melo but his offense sux but unlike bargs he's a good defender

Jason smith is another good big he started for the pelicans some games last year and might even end up being our starting 5 but he can play the 4 too

outside of hans pat amir the raps don't have any more 4's ntm that trio is probably the weakest combination in the east

Neither team has much depth in the front court. It won't matter to the Knicks this year because they're not going anywhere yet but that thin front court will be hard for the Raptors to work around.

nycericanguy
08-17-2014, 11:39 AM
Neither team has much depth in the front court. It won't matter to the Knicks this year because they're not going anywhere yet but that thin front court will be hard for the Raptors to work around.

I know TOR had a great year and won 48 games and you guys have reason to be optimistic... and I know NY had an awful year and everyone outside of Melo was trash... but at the end of the day, these teams are pretty evenly matched and I can't imagine there will be more than a 4-5 win differential either way between these two teams.

I will say though, Amare late last year looked healthy and explosive for the first time since 2011. He started the last 20 something games next to Melo and was puttin up a very efficient 17 & 7 in 28mpg and NY ran off a 16-6 record.

I don't think much is EXPECTED of Amare next year, it's pretty much a bonus at this point, but he could be an x-factor if he carries over his good health.

Chaotic98
08-17-2014, 12:58 PM
I know TOR had a great year and won 48 games and you guys have reason to be optimistic... and I know NY had an awful year and everyone outside of Melo was trash... but at the end of the day, these teams are pretty evenly matched and I can't imagine there will be more than a 4-5 win differential either way between these two teams.

I will say though, Amare late last year looked healthy and explosive for the first time since 2011. He started the last 20 something games next to Melo and was puttin up a very efficient 17 & 7 in 28mpg and NY ran off a 16-6 record.

I don't think much is EXPECTED of Amare next year, it's pretty much a bonus at this point, but he could be an x-factor if he carries over his good health.

Just comparing starting 5

Lowry > Calderon
Derozan > Shumpert/JR
Ross < Melo
Amir <=>? Amare
Valanciunas > Smith/Dalembert

Outside of Melo, the Knicks really don't match up well in the starting 5. Amare, can be an upgrade over Amir, as long as he is healthier than Amir, which he hasn't been since 2011, and I wouldn't be betting on him having an injury free season this year either.

nycericanguy
08-17-2014, 01:18 PM
Just comparing starting 5

Lowry > Calderon
Derozan > Shumpert/JR
Ross < Melo
Amir <=>? Amare
Valanciunas > Smith/Dalembert

Outside of Melo, the Knicks really don't match up well in the starting 5. Amare, can be an upgrade over Amir, as long as he is healthier than Amir, which he hasn't been since 2011, and I wouldn't be betting on him having an injury free season this year either.

I mean basketball isn't played with < or >... TOR does have a better starting 5, but NY should have a damn good bench with

Larkin/Prigs
THJR
JR/Outlaw
Bargs/Acy
Dalembert/Cole

And while on paper Melo might be the only clear advantage, he is a HUGE advantage and is going to be the best player on the court.

Right now I'd put TOR ahead of NY, but my point was these teams are pretty equally matched and I don't expect there to be more than a 4-5 win differential.

Amare doesn't have to play 80 games, if he gives us 60 games of 18 & 8 that would be huge.

I don't think it's unreasonable to think NY can win 45-47 games this year, and I'd have TOR around the same range... maybe 47-50.

mike_noodles
08-17-2014, 01:20 PM
I mean basketball isn't played with < or >... TOR does have a better starting 5, but NY should have a damn good bench with

Larkin/Prigs
THJR
JR/Outlaw
Bargs/Acy
Dalembert/Cole

And while on paper Melo might be the only clear advantage, he is a HUGE advantage and is going to be the best player on the court.

Right now I'd put TOR ahead of NY, but my point was these teams are pretty equally matched and I don't expect there to be more than a 4-5 win differential.

Amare doesn't have to play 80 games, if he gives us 60 games of 18 & 8 that would be huge.

I don't think it's unreasonable to think NY can win 45-47 games this year, and I'd have TOR around the same range... maybe 47-50.

Sure he is, if you only count scoring.

nycericanguy
08-17-2014, 01:34 PM
[QUOTE=mike_noodles;28937340]Sure he is, if you only count scoring.[/QUOTE

8.1rpg 3.1apg, insanely low TO rate...

Melo does a lot more than just score...and you know scoring is a BIG part of basketball...lol. but ok.

Whatever he's doing he should keep it up because outside of 1 year in his 11 year career he's had his teams close to 50 wins and in the playoffs every year.

mike_noodles
08-17-2014, 01:46 PM
8.1rpg 3.1apg, insanely low TO rate...

Melo does a lot more than just score...and you know scoring is a BIG part of basketball...lol. but ok.

Whatever he's doing he should keep it up because outside of 1 year in his 11 year career he's had his teams close to 50 wins and in the playoffs every year.

I'll give you that, he is a decent rebounder, statiscally much better than I had thought. But take away rebounding and shooting and Derozan and Lowry are both better at everything else. Especially defense which is half of the game.

deaner
08-17-2014, 02:15 PM
[QUOTE=mike_noodles;28937340]Sure he is, if you only count scoring.[/QUOTE

8.1rpg 3.1apg, insanely low TO rate...

Melo does a lot more than just score...and you know scoring is a BIG part of basketball...lol. but ok.

Whatever he's doing he should keep it up because outside of 1 year in his 11 year career he's had his teams close to 50 wins and in the playoffs every year.

I'm pretty sure Tyler Hansbourgh scored more than Melo in the playoffs last year. NYK fans are jumping the gun on saying 44-50 wins. New Coach, new system, new PG, new players, no defensive anchor... Sure you could guess a number... But there's no way to back it up.

toronto416
08-17-2014, 04:50 PM
I have always been a big melo fan. I don't think he gets enough credit for being a top tear player. Not a Knicks fan but it seems that they lack a well balanced TEAM. From watching guys like Jose and bargs for years raps fans can say that their stats are miss leading. Jose is made for euro ball and just holds on the ball way to long and doesn't make those momentum shots or stops to get a team rolling. Bargs just doesn't think fast enough.

NBA seems to be changing and is more of team game esp in the playoffs. There are two many shutdown defenders and research to shutdown teams. That being said I think that PJ and team can catch a lot of teams early with the triangle offence. Kind if like chip Kelly and the eagles did with there great offence and horrible defence last year. But once teams catch on the Knicks with be an average team

MoneyBall20
08-17-2014, 05:29 PM
WTF.. Do the Raptors have less Depth than the Knicks?

LOL...Common man,seriously.
The Knicks..The Knicks are lottery team,Calderon and Bargnani on same team,it's gonna b lay up game for any team playing against them and u know Carmelo is gonna pout,he got his money,he got paid,my money his gonna b gone by next year.





http://s3.amazonaws.com/br-cdn/temp_images/2014/01/20/KnicksDBig.gif?1390254596

Kinglorious
08-17-2014, 06:35 PM
Fans from both teams are throwing around a lot of hate to the other. This is why I just want the season to start already, and not waste our time bantering about this ********.

Though to join in, because I can't help it -- uh, I do have to question the gall of some from the Knicks forum that truly believe they are unquestionably going to win the Atlantic, even after that pitiful season they just had. What moves have they made that make them better than they were? So they added Calderon and Dalembert, who are both 33 and undoubtedly on their way down -- and neither come from winning atmospheres (besides the one season in Dallas) -- Barry Larkin's son, Quincy Acy (who I really don't see doing much of anything), a rookie coach, oh and Travis Outlaw. Yeah. And from his President's seat, Phil Jackson's triangle offense will just magically work because it did with the Bulls and Lakers? Those teams had players that are (or soon will be) Hall of Famers... Which player on the Knicks will one day be in the HoF besides Melo? Not one, obviously.

I get that people love their team, and the Knicks might be really good and everything might come together perfectly, but come on. At this point with the season not even started yet, you gotta have some shred of modesty...

nycericanguy
08-17-2014, 09:46 PM
Fans from both teams are throwing around a lot of hate to the other. This is why I just want the season to start already, and not waste our time bantering about this ********.

Though to join in, because I can't help it -- uh, I do have to question the gall of some from the Knicks forum that truly believe they are unquestionably going to win the Atlantic, even after that pitiful season they just had. What moves have they made that make them better than they were? So they added Calderon and Dalembert, who are both 33 and undoubtedly on their way down -- and neither come from winning atmospheres (besides the one season in Dallas) -- Barry Larkin's son, Quincy Acy (who I really don't see doing much of anything), a rookie coach, oh and Travis Outlaw. Yeah. And from his President's seat, Phil Jackson's triangle offense will just magically work because it did with the Bulls and Lakers? Those teams had players that are (or soon will be) Hall of Famers... Which player on the Knicks will one day be in the HoF besides Melo? Not one, obviously.

I get that people love their team, and the Knicks might be really good and everything might come together perfectly, but come on. At this point with the season not even started yet, you gotta have some shred of modesty...

Who said the Knicks would unquestionably win the atlantic?

Cal827
08-18-2014, 10:14 PM
:facepalm:

Kinglorious
08-18-2014, 10:32 PM
Who said the Knicks would unquestionably win the atlantic?

What, do you want to get hung up on "unquestionably"? Fine, you got me -- no one said "We will unquestionably win the division!"

But in thread I skimmed through there were several -- a few almost adamant -- saying the Knicks were taking the Atlantic. One even had them at #2 in the EC. Sensible NY posters laughed at them though and told them to chill.

Now in my thinking, the division champs from the previous year should always be the favourite for the next unless they clearly got worse and another team clearly got better. The Raptors have not gotten worse, and while the Knicks might be slightly improved -- are they really so much better that the aforementioned fans would honestly believe their team would take the division from Toronto just 'cause?

This is where my bit about modesty comes in... After a 37-45 season, a Knick fan should be happy just making the playoffs. Not only were there some saying division champs but there were others (or the same guys maybe) saying Conference Finals... What?

I'm not judging the whole fan base here, and that's why I said "some from the Knicks forum." You bolded one sentence in my post but I believe the rest of it has merit. What has NYK done to get these fans thinking it'll be a banner year when it's 2 1/2 months before tip off?

east fb knicks
08-18-2014, 10:46 PM
Fans from both teams are throwing around a lot of hate to the other. This is why I just want the season to start already, and not waste our time bantering about this ********.

Though to join in, because I can't help it -- uh, I do have to question the gall of some from the Knicks forum that truly believe they are unquestionably going to win the Atlantic, even after that pitiful season they just had. What moves have they made that make them better than they were? So they added Calderon and Dalembert, who are both 33 and undoubtedly on their way down -- and neither come from winning atmospheres (besides the one season in Dallas) -- Barry Larkin's son, Quincy Acy (who I really don't see doing much of anything), a rookie coach, oh and Travis Outlaw. Yeah. And from his President's seat, Phil Jackson's triangle offense will just magically work because it did with the Bulls and Lakers? Those teams had players that are (or soon will be) Hall of Famers... Which player on the Knicks will one day be in the HoF besides Melo? Not one, obviously.

I get that people love their team, and the Knicks might be really good and everything might come together perfectly, but come on. At this point with the season not even started yet, you gotta have some shred of modesty...

me too this is going to be the best division battle probably ever I don't think the raps nets and knicks have ever had all good enough teams to win the division this year is going to be exciting:jumpy:

nycericanguy
08-19-2014, 07:57 AM
What, do you want to get hung up on "unquestionably"? Fine, you got me -- no one said "We will unquestionably win the division!"

But in thread I skimmed through there were several -- a few almost adamant -- saying the Knicks were taking the Atlantic. One even had them at #2 in the EC. Sensible NY posters laughed at them though and told them to chill.

Now in my thinking, the division champs from the previous year should always be the favourite for the next unless they clearly got worse and another team clearly got better. The Raptors have not gotten worse, and while the Knicks might be slightly improved -- are they really so much better that the aforementioned fans would honestly believe their team would take the division from Toronto just 'cause?

This is where my bit about modesty comes in... After a 37-45 season, a Knick fan should be happy just making the playoffs. Not only were there some saying division champs but there were others (or the same guys maybe) saying Conference Finals... What?

I'm not judging the whole fan base here, and that's why I said "some from the Knicks forum." You bolded one sentence in my post but I believe the rest of it has merit. What has NYK done to get these fans thinking it'll be a banner year when it's 2 1/2 months before tip off?

Based on this thread and the NBA forum and even the NYK forum which has been invaded by TOR trollers, I would say TOR fans should be the ones to have some modesty... they are the ones making anti-knick bashing threads and putting themselves on another stratosphere after one good year.

Yes of course Knick fans think we can win the atlantic, why shouldnt we? but theres a HUGE difference between thinking we have a chance, and saying we are "unquestionably" going to win it... when you have to exaggerate that much to try to make a point that should tell you something.

What I really don't get is why a lot of TOR fans take such offense to Knick fans thinking they have a shot to win the atlantic... It seems to bother some of you guys deeply...lol... and i have no idea why.

pebloemer
08-19-2014, 08:52 AM
Based on this thread and the NBA forum and even the NYK forum which has been invaded by TOR trollers, I would say TOR fans should be the ones to have some modesty... they are the ones making anti-knick bashing threads and putting themselves on another stratosphere after one good year.

Yes of course Knick fans think we can win the atlantic, why shouldnt we? but theres a HUGE difference between thinking we have a chance, and saying we are "unquestionably" going to win it... when you have to exaggerate that much to try to make a point that should tell you something.

What I really don't get is why a lot of TOR fans take such offense to Knick fans thinking they have a shot to win the atlantic... It seems to bother some of you guys deeply...lol... and i have no idea why.

From a Toronto fan, this is a fair point. I'm not sure why I've wasted my time reading through the threads you speak of. It is certainly filled with homerism (from both sides) and plenty of trolling (from one poster in specific). Frankly, I'm a little surprised this thread is still open :shrug:

albertajaysfan
08-19-2014, 12:43 PM
Based on this thread and the NBA forum and even the NYK forum which has been invaded by TOR trollers, I would say TOR fans should be the ones to have some modesty... they are the ones making anti-knick bashing threads and putting themselves on another stratosphere after one good year.

Yes of course Knick fans think we can win the atlantic, why shouldnt we? but theres a HUGE difference between thinking we have a chance, and saying we are "unquestionably" going to win it... when you have to exaggerate that much to try to make a point that should tell you something.

What I really don't get is why a lot of TOR fans take such offense to Knick fans thinking they have a shot to win the atlantic... It seems to bother some of you guys deeply...lol... and i have no idea why.

I am going to make the same point I made in the thread you mentioned in the main forum.

Please stop lumping us all in together because of the actions of a few. You seem to get defensive when people do it with Knicks fans.

And it is fine to think your team can win this division. It sure would be nice though if you could also present the side it is just as likely (possibly more so) that you guys have a terrible year again.

I have a serious question for you though. How would you feel if you guys won the Atlantic this year on the backs of the vets that are playing for contracts? Then get bounced in the first round because their lack of D gets exposed in a 7 game series. Would you prefer to have just played the young kids who PJ has brought in, presumably because he thinks they fit his system?

Kinglorious
08-19-2014, 02:20 PM
Based on this thread and the NBA forum and even the NYK forum which has been invaded by TOR trollers, I would say TOR fans should be the ones to have some modesty... they are the ones making anti-knick bashing threads and putting themselves on another stratosphere after one good year.

Yes of course Knick fans think we can win the atlantic, why shouldnt we? but theres a HUGE difference between thinking we have a chance, and saying we are "unquestionably" going to win it... when you have to exaggerate that much to try to make a point that should tell you something.

What I really don't get is why a lot of TOR fans take such offense to Knick fans thinking they have a shot to win the atlantic... It seems to bother some of you guys deeply...lol... and i have no idea why.

I want to apologize. The two posts above are the only ones I've done on this matter in any forum on PSD, and this one will be my last. It wasn't my intention to troll, bait or make fun of the Knick fans but I suppose I did, and after looking at the title, I was off topic anyway. I had a gripe about something and I should have kept it to myself.

And saying all that, I actually kinda like the Knicks believe it or not and I've said it before on here. Why? I love New York, I like MSG and most of all, the fan base reminds me of the Maple Leafs' ...and let's just say the two organizations are quite similar, especially in the past decade.

east fb knicks
08-19-2014, 02:56 PM
I am going to make the same point I made in the thread you mentioned in the main forum.

Please stop lumping us all in together because of the actions of a few. You seem to get defensive when people do it with Knicks fans.

And it is fine to think your team can win this division. It sure would be nice though if you could also present the side it is just as likely (possibly more so) that you guys have a terrible year again.

I have a serious question for you though. How would you feel if you guys won the Atlantic this year on the backs of the vets that are playing for contracts? Then get bounced in the first round because their lack of D gets exposed in a 7 game series. Would you prefer to have just played the young kids who PJ has brought in, presumably because he thinks they fit his system?

we have to make the playoffs bro or else we won't get anybody in 2015 im not expecting us to get out of the first unless we win the division and even then the 2nd rd would be our ceiling I just want to win the division that alone would be a huge accomplishment

Freakazoid
08-19-2014, 04:14 PM
Most of Melo's improvement in efficiency came from playing the 4. I wonder how slimming down is going to affect his game.

nycericanguy
08-19-2014, 04:19 PM
I want to apologize. The two posts above are the only ones I've done on this matter in any forum on PSD, and this one will be my last. It wasn't my intention to troll, bait or make fun of the Knick fans but I suppose I did, and after looking at the title, I was off topic anyway. I had a gripe about something and I should have kept it to myself.

And saying all that, I actually kinda like the Knicks believe it or not and I've said it before on here. Why? I love New York, I like MSG and most of all, the fan base reminds me of the Maple Leafs' ...and let's just say the two organizations are quite similar, especially in the past decade.

NP... this forum is great 90% of the time.

deaner
08-19-2014, 04:21 PM
Most of Melo's improvement in efficiency came from playing the 4. I wonder how slimming down is going to affect his game.

I think both he and Lebron have concluded that their frames can't handle the current size for the long run.

nycericanguy
08-19-2014, 04:21 PM
Most of Melo's improvement in efficiency came from playing the 4. I wonder how slimming down is going to affect his game.

That's just the popular thing to say, the truth is Melo has developed a great 3pt shot since coming to NY, he's quietly become one of the better 3pt shooters in the league... in DEN, Karl didn't want him shooting too many 3's. But he actually had more efficient years in DEN at SF.

That's the big reason for Melo's improved efficiency. He started at SF at the end of the year when Stat was healthy and NY dominated during that stretch and Melo was good as ever.

nycericanguy
08-19-2014, 04:23 PM
I am going to make the same point I made in the thread you mentioned in the main forum.

Please stop lumping us all in together because of the actions of a few. You seem to get defensive when people do it with Knicks fans.

And it is fine to think your team can win this division. It sure would be nice though if you could also present the side it is just as likely (possibly more so) that you guys have a terrible year again.

I have a serious question for you though. How would you feel if you guys won the Atlantic this year on the backs of the vets that are playing for contracts? Then get bounced in the first round because their lack of D gets exposed in a 7 game series. Would you prefer to have just played the young kids who PJ has brought in, presumably because he thinks they fit his system?

winning the atlantic would be great no matter what. we gotta prove to the '15 Free agent class that we are one piece away and that PJ knows what he's doing.

The young guys will get their chance anyway, THJR is going to be a big part of next season. other than that, we don't have any other young guys that are ready to be thrown into the fire.

Freakazoid
08-19-2014, 04:32 PM
That's just the popular thing to say, the truth is Melo has developed a great 3pt shot since coming to NY, he's quietly become one of the better 3pt shooters in the league... in DEN, Karl didn't want him shooting too many 3's. But he actually had more efficient years in DEN at SF.

That's the big reason for Melo's improved efficiency. He started at SF at the end of the year when Stat was healthy and NY dominated during that stretch and Melo was good as ever.

I don't see how playing the 4 and developing a more efficient 3pt shot is mutually exclusive.

nycericanguy
08-19-2014, 04:37 PM
I don't see how playing the 4 and developing a more efficient 3pt shot is mutually exclusive.

not sure what you mean? I thought you were saying Melo was more efficient at the 4?

I'm saying it doesn't matter where he plays, his increased efficiency has come with his improved 3pt shot, not because of the positoin he plays

Freakazoid
08-19-2014, 04:43 PM
not sure what you mean? I thought you were saying Melo was more efficient at the 4?

I'm saying it doesn't matter where he plays, his increased efficiency has come with his improved 3pt shot, not because of the positoin he plays

Well, you're wrong. He attempts more shots, has a higher eFG% and a higher PER playing the 4 than when he plays the 3.

ink
08-19-2014, 04:48 PM
What, do you want to get hung up on "unquestionably"? Fine, you got me -- no one said "We will unquestionably win the division!"

But in thread I skimmed through there were several -- a few almost adamant -- saying the Knicks were taking the Atlantic. One even had them at #2 in the EC. Sensible NY posters laughed at them though and told them to chill.

Now in my thinking, the division champs from the previous year should always be the favourite for the next unless they clearly got worse and another team clearly got better. The Raptors have not gotten worse, and while the Knicks might be slightly improved -- are they really so much better that the aforementioned fans would honestly believe their team would take the division from Toronto just 'cause?

This is where my bit about modesty comes in... After a 37-45 season, a Knick fan should be happy just making the playoffs. Not only were there some saying division champs but there were others (or the same guys maybe) saying Conference Finals... What?

I'm not judging the whole fan base here, and that's why I said "some from the Knicks forum." You bolded one sentence in my post but I believe the rest of it has merit. What has NYK done to get these fans thinking it'll be a banner year when it's 2 1/2 months before tip off?

Based on this thread and the NBA forum and even the NYK forum which has been invaded by TOR trollers, I would say TOR fans should be the ones to have some modesty... they are the ones making anti-knick bashing threads and putting themselves on another stratosphere after one good year.

Yes of course Knick fans think we can win the atlantic, why shouldnt we? but theres a HUGE difference between thinking we have a chance, and saying we are "unquestionably" going to win it... when you have to exaggerate that much to try to make a point that should tell you something.

What I really don't get is why a lot of TOR fans take such offense to Knick fans thinking they have a shot to win the atlantic... It seems to bother some of you guys deeply...lol... and i have no idea why.

I want to repeat what I said last year about this: please report trolling. There have been enough warnings now that people should understand if/when they get infractions for this. It's gone on way too long and there's no reason at all for the aggravation. Thanks.

nycericanguy
08-19-2014, 04:55 PM
Well, you're wrong. He attempts more shots, has a higher eFG% and a higher PER playing the 4 than when he plays the 3.

havent looked it up, but it's a small sample size and there are going to be variables. He's had seasons of higher TS and eFG at SF in DEN and that was when he wasnt a great 3pt shooter... at the end of the day Melo's going to be Melo... if there is a difference it won't be much

Freakazoid
08-19-2014, 05:05 PM
havent looked it up, but it's a small sample size and there are going to be variables. He's had seasons of higher TS and eFG at SF in DEN and that was when he wasnt a great 3pt shooter... at the end of the day Melo's going to be Melo... if there is a difference it won't be much

How is it a small sample when he played the majority of possessions at the 4 (72% and 62%, last 2 seasons)?

smith&wesson
08-19-2014, 05:53 PM
I cant beleive this thread went on for 7 pages :laugh2: hilarious. who cares if we have more or less depth than the knicks. we have a better starting 5 lol

smith&wesson
08-19-2014, 05:54 PM
All I have to say is leave poor knicks fans alone. They have calderon and bargnani if anyone can empathize with them its us. Plus their best player is like basically a better rudy gay..

thats like us having calderon, gay, bargnani lol.. how frustraited would you be ? Leave the poor knicks fans alone.. I feel for them. They remind me alot of our fan base... loyal, passionate, and no real reason to support for decades but they still do.

albertajaysfan
08-19-2014, 09:18 PM
All I have to say is leave poor knicks fans alone. They have calderon and bargnani if anyone can empathize with them its us. Plus their best player is like basically a better rudy gay..

thats like us having calderon, gay, bargnani lol.. how frustraited would you be ? Leave the poor knicks fans alone.. I feel for them. They remind me alot of our fan base... loyal, passionate, and no real reason to support for decades but they still do.

Def valid points. Especially the Calderon and Bargnani part. Although Melo is far superior to Gay. He shouldn't be based on skill level but he is in reality.

east fb knicks
08-19-2014, 09:57 PM
All I have to say is leave poor knicks fans alone. They have calderon and bargnani if anyone can empathize with them its us. Plus their best player is like basically a better rudy gay.. thats like us having calderon, gay, bargnani lol.. how frustraited would you be ? Leave the poor knicks fans alone.. I feel for them. They remind me alot of our fan base... loyal, passionate, and no real reason to support for decades but they still do.

wow:laugh2:

nycericanguy
08-19-2014, 10:23 PM
Def valid points. Especially the Calderon and Bargnani part. Although Melo is far superior to Gay. He shouldn't be based on skill level but he is in reality.

I never got the hate toward Calderon... guy was a consummate professional, deadly shooter who was capable of 50/40/90 any given year, almost never turned it over, had great ORTG/DRTG numbers... I always thought he was unappreciated for what he bought to the table.

Poor defender yes... but a lot of PG's in his mold are poor defenders.

And look what he did with Dirk and DAL last year, started 80 games, 50 win season out west, nearly took out the Spurs.

nycericanguy
08-19-2014, 10:25 PM
How is it a small sample when he played the majority of possessions at the 4 (72% and 62%, last 2 seasons)?

In the big picture yes it's a very small sample size... 22 games at SF last year.

Why not look at his DEN seasons when he posted career highs in TS% and eFG% despite not being the shooter he is today?

Seems like you're reaching, I mean do you really think Melo's efficiency is going to be affected in any substantial way by playing mostly SF next year? I think if anything he'll be more efficient next year, he took a pounding playing PF, even LBJ who is built like a tank said he wouldn't want to play PF full time because of the pounding he takes.

Jamiecballer
08-19-2014, 10:57 PM
In the big picture yes it's a very small sample size... 22 games at SF last year.

Why not look at his DEN seasons when he posted career highs in TS% and eFG% despite not being the shooter he is today?

Seems like you're reaching, I mean do you really think Melo's efficiency is going to be affected in any substantial way by playing mostly SF next year? I think if anything he'll be more efficient next year, he took a pounding playing PF, even LBJ who is built like a tank said he wouldn't want to play PF full time because of the pounding he takes.
One of you say 70% the other says 22 games, somebody is very confused here and I have no clue who

Freakazoid
08-19-2014, 11:07 PM
In the big picture yes it's a very small sample size... 22 games at SF last year.

Why not look at his DEN seasons when he posted career highs in TS% and eFG% despite not being the shooter he is today?

Seems like you're reaching, I mean do you really think Melo's efficiency is going to be affected in any substantial way by playing mostly SF next year? I think if anything he'll be more efficient next year, he took a pounding playing PF, even LBJ who is built like a tank said he wouldn't want to play PF full time because of the pounding he takes.

I feel like you're rabidly attacking random points I'm not making because it's about Melo. I didn't state he was going to be less efficient, I'm wondering how it'll affect his game. I could ask the same with Lebron because it's obvious he's not going to have the same shot chart he has been sporting for the past 2 seasons. It's irrelevant whether or not he had better TS%/eFG% at the 3 because the main idea is that he's receiving mismatches at the 4 (especially in transition) hence the higher efficiency the past 2 years.

Freakazoid
08-19-2014, 11:14 PM
One of you say 70% the other says 22 games, somebody is very confused here and I have no clue who

He's arguing a point I never made. He's stuck on the idea that Melo will be Melo because he has been Melo in the past and he has a better 3pt shot now. I'm paraphrasing but you get the point. For whatever reason, he thinks I'm also arguing that he has worse numbers at the 3 than in previous years, that's where he got the 22 games from.

I'm arguing that being a 4 makes him more efficient because it causes mismatches hence the higher efficiency. But whatever, it's such a pointless argument since Knicks fans are going to take everything said in this troll thread as a slight.

deaner
08-20-2014, 12:11 AM
I never got the hate toward Calderon... guy was a consummate professional, deadly shooter who was capable of 50/40/90 any given year, almost never turned it over, had great ORTG/DRTG numbers... I always thought he was unappreciated for what he bought to the table.

Poor defender yes... but a lot of PG's in his mold are poor defenders.

And look what he did with Dirk and DAL last year, started 80 games, 50 win season out west, nearly took out the Spurs.

You know that Dirk forced Jose out of town right....

Bob_at_york
08-20-2014, 12:10 PM
You know that Dirk forced Jose out of town right....

I didn't know that.

albertajaysfan
08-20-2014, 02:38 PM
I never got the hate toward Calderon... guy was a consummate professional, deadly shooter who was capable of 50/40/90 any given year, almost never turned it over, had great ORTG/DRTG numbers... I always thought he was unappreciated for what he bought to the table.

Poor defender yes... but a lot of PG's in his mold are poor defenders.

And look what he did with Dirk and DAL last year, started 80 games, 50 win season out west, nearly took out the Spurs.

He never put up a season of 50/40/90 though. Considering how old he is and he has yet to do it I would argue that he isn't capable of such a thing.

In terms of his professionalism I completely agree. But that doesn't blind me to the fact that he was horrible on defence. Which is fine if you account for it. But when your primary big is a terrible help defender it has the makings of a garbage defensive team.

The low TOs are a product of how he plays. Ask any Raptor fan and they will confirm that he had a tendency to stand in one spot dribbling the ball for extended periods of time.

Edit: I loved what Calderon brought to the table. But our team construction in those years was terrible. I do believe he was unfairly blamed for some of those teams. Still doesn't change what he is.

Look at it this way. Of all the PGs who have been successful in the triangle offence have been capable 3 point shooters who play solid defence. He only has one side of that coin. If his biggest assets are his shooting and lack of TOs by putting him in the triangle you actually eliminate one of his strengths because the ball won't be in his hands as often.

I will give you my honest opinion on what Phil is doing in New York, which I think he is wise to do for the longterm future of your organization. If the NY media and Dolan can stay out of his way to get it done.

He is positioning this team to be a lottery team this year. Then you guys can build around Melo, a lotto pick and huge amount of cap space. Which in a large market like NY could lead to a very quick turnaround. Take the emotions out of it and this is the most logical path to follow. It amazes me that no one seems to be talking about this. Of course Phil isn't going to come right out and say it. But there have been bread crumbs left behind. Especially by Melo who has stated that this year is going to be a tough year of growth. Phil is known for being a master at mind games so I guess I shouldn't be that surprised.

Bob_at_york
08-20-2014, 03:18 PM
He never put up a season of 50/40/90 though. Considering how old he is and he has yet to do it I would argue that he isn't capable of such a thing.
2007-2008?

deaner
08-20-2014, 03:53 PM
I didn't know that.

That was something I heard from a very well connected person. Dirk was really frustrated with the amount Jose dribbled the ball. Cuban shopped him hard.

nycericanguy
08-20-2014, 04:19 PM
He never put up a season of 50/40/90 though. Considering how old he is and he has yet to do it I would argue that he isn't capable of such a thing.

In terms of his professionalism I completely agree. But that doesn't blind me to the fact that he was horrible on defence. Which is fine if you account for it. But when your primary big is a terrible help defender it has the makings of a garbage defensive team.

The low TOs are a product of how he plays. Ask any Raptor fan and they will confirm that he had a tendency to stand in one spot dribbling the ball for extended periods of time.

Edit: I loved what Calderon brought to the table. But our team construction in those years was terrible. I do believe he was unfairly blamed for some of those teams. Still doesn't change what he is.

Look at it this way. Of all the PGs who have been successful in the triangle offence have been capable 3 point shooters who play solid defence. He only has one side of that coin. If his biggest assets are his shooting and lack of TOs by putting him in the triangle you actually eliminate one of his strengths because the ball won't be in his hands as often.

I will give you my honest opinion on what Phil is doing in New York, which I think he is wise to do for the longterm future of your organization. If the NY media and Dolan can stay out of his way to get it done.

He is positioning this team to be a lottery team this year. Then you guys can build around Melo, a lotto pick and huge amount of cap space. Which in a large market like NY could lead to a very quick turnaround. Take the emotions out of it and this is the most logical path to follow. It amazes me that no one seems to be talking about this. Of course Phil isn't going to come right out and say it. But there have been bread crumbs left behind. Especially by Melo who has stated that this year is going to be a tough year of growth. Phil is known for being a master at mind games so I guess I shouldn't be that surprised.

2008 - 53/43/91

2009 - 50/41/98

He's done it twice and come close numerous other times... very few players in the league can do that.

As for your TO theory, he played over 30mpg in a high paces offense last year and still only turned it over 1.3x per game. His assist to TO ratio has always been among the best in the league. And his career ORTG/DRTG is 119/112 which is pretty damn good. Compare that to Felton who was 103/111 last year and 103/109 for his career, you can see just how much of an upgrade NY got.

I seriously doubt PJ is looking at NY as a lottery team next year, this is probably the 2nd most talented team Melo has been on in NY outside of the 54 win team... he had a team featuring Jared Jeffries, a rookie Shumpert, Toney Douglas, Novak and Fields over .500 during his tenure here, that should say something.

Melo has had the most team success when he's had a PG that can run the show, like Billups and Kidd. So Calderon I think will help a lot more than some think.

smith&wesson
08-20-2014, 05:54 PM
I never got the hate toward Calderon... guy was a consummate professional, deadly shooter who was capable of 50/40/90 any given year, almost never turned it over, had great ORTG/DRTG numbers... I always thought he was unappreciated for what he bought to the table.

Poor defender yes... but a lot of PG's in his mold are poor defenders.

And look what he did with Dirk and DAL last year, started 80 games, 50 win season out west, nearly took out the Spurs.

Calderon is grossly over rated by some raptor fans. He is a horrible defender, probably the worst at his position. His lateral quickness leaves much to be desired. He is super ball dominant, often dribbles out the clock before passing it up and does this on purpose to ensure he gets the assist. He is a good shooter, but is un selfish to a fault.

He is a proffesional, a great locker room guy and team mate.. but we tend to over rate these sort of attributes. Yes I agree that its important to be a proffesional, but when you start over rating a player because of his professionalism I think we get that confused with talent and skillset.

Lowry > calderon. hek GVZ > calderon.

deaner
08-20-2014, 05:58 PM
I'm wondering is Will Cherry is better than Jose at this point for a triangle offense.

smith&wesson
08-20-2014, 06:00 PM
Def valid points. Especially the Calderon and Bargnani part. Although Melo is far superior to Gay. He shouldn't be based on skill level but he is in reality.


wow:laugh2:

you guys can laugh, but Rudy Gay is pretty much a poor mans melo. :) I said it.

smith&wesson
08-20-2014, 06:04 PM
I'm wondering is Will Cherry is better than Jose at this point for a triangle offense.

I'm still wondering why MU even signed this guy... he just takes up a roster spot. We have Lowry who is our best player, which means the pg position is already our strongest position. Then you hav GVZ who is a border line starter we have as a back up, then you have lou williams who is more then capable of playing some minutes at the 1 when needed.

I would have much rather left the roster spot open for flexibility or even target a big man to have more depth at the 5. Will Cherry is just another Buicks type of signing. wont impact any games and doesnt give us depth where we need it. useless signing imo.

BHF
08-20-2014, 06:31 PM
That was something I heard from a very well connected person. Dirk was really frustrated with the amount Jose dribbled the ball. Cuban shopped him hard.

What i kept saying all along, we had no ball movement with him and no defense. Jose couldn't keep anyone in front of him and kept switching all the time and Bargs is one of the worst help defenders in the league. Put these two together and you have the worst defense in the league.

Jamiecballer
08-20-2014, 06:43 PM
Calderon is grossly over rated by some raptor fans. He is a horrible defender, probably the worst at his position. His lateral quickness leaves much to be desired. He is super ball dominant, often dribbles out the clock before passing it up and does this on purpose to ensure he gets the assist. He is a good shooter, but is un selfish to a fault.

He is a proffesional, a great locker room guy and team mate.. but we tend to over rate these sort of attributes. Yes I agree that its important to be a proffesional, but when you start over rating a player because of his professionalism I think we get that confused with talent and skillset.

Lowry > calderon. hek GVZ > calderon.
Don't listen to this guy lol

Calderon is grossly over rated by some raptor fans. He is a horrible defender, probably the worst at his position. His lateral quickness leaves much to be desired. He is super ball dominant, often dribbles out the clock before passing it up and does this on purpose to ensure he gets the assist. He is a good shooter, but is un selfish to a fault.

He is a proffesional, a great locker room guy and team mate.. but we tend to over rate these sort of attributes. Yes I agree that its important to be a proffesional, but when you start over rating a player because of his professionalism I think we get that confused with talent and skillset.

Lowry > calderon. hek GVZ > calderon.

smith&wesson
08-20-2014, 07:03 PM
Don't listen to this guy lol

what do you mean by that ??

Jamiecballer
08-20-2014, 07:18 PM
what do you mean by that ??
That he shouldn't listen to you. It was a joke! Obviously I disagree with the majority of the post as you should know from past discussions.

smith&wesson
08-20-2014, 07:26 PM
letting it go. . .

Jamiecballer
08-20-2014, 07:30 PM
Wow lol. Where is that coming from.

smith&wesson
08-20-2014, 07:37 PM
Wow lol. Where is that coming from.

stop fronting, you know how you go on with me. Im sick of it. there was a time when I respected you as a poster. Now I see you as someone who trolls me. get off my dick.

Jamiecballer
08-20-2014, 07:42 PM
stop fronting, you know how you go on with me. Im sick of it. there was a time when I respected you as a poster. Now I see you as someone who trolls me. get off my dick.
No problem. I obviously misread the situation. Didn't have a clue you felt that way.

pulzar
08-20-2014, 08:07 PM
I never got the hate toward Calderon... guy was a consummate professional, deadly shooter who was capable of 50/40/90 any given year, almost never turned it over, had great ORTG/DRTG numbers... I always thought he was unappreciated for what he bought to the table.

Poor defender yes... but a lot of PG's in his mold are poor defenders.

I always liked the guy, and hated seeing him on another team... there were flashes of brilliance in some of his games, where he couldn't miss a shot, but would also drive and score layup after layup. And almost never any turnovers.

He was always good enough to keep us close with a timely shot, or, yes, a late shot-clock pass to the open man. But, the thing is, none of that would work when the game is on the line... people get up on him a bit and he doesn't get an open shot, and the time is running out so he has to rush things a bit, and his careful passing style just breaks down.

And, then, that awful D...

I do feel now that we're much better off without him, but, man, there were times when I really thought he could be something really good. He'd be a really good backup on a team that has a bunch of mediocre veterans on the bench -- he slows things done, reduces turnovers, adds instant offense with his shooting. Perfect for a team like last year's Heat.

Terrible backup for any team with young guys on the bench. And, he shouldn't start.

deaner
08-20-2014, 10:04 PM
I'm still wondering why MU even signed this guy... he just takes up a roster spot. We have Lowry who is our best player, which means the pg position is already our strongest position. Then you hav GVZ who is a border line starter we have as a back up, then you have lou williams who is more then capable of playing some minutes at the 1 when needed.

I would have much rather left the roster spot open for flexibility or even target a big man to have more depth at the 5. Will Cherry is just another Buicks type of signing. wont impact any games and doesnt give us depth where we need it. useless signing imo.

I said it before in a thread. I believe Masai has found the key to keeping Lowry focused... It's giving him practice time against tough nosed hungry PGs like stone Buycks and Cherry. Masai cycled the moving part to keep it fresh. Cherry is a combo of stone and Buycks IMO.

FriedTofuz
08-20-2014, 11:30 PM
Calderon is grossly over rated by some raptor fans. He is a horrible defender, probably the worst at his position. His lateral quickness leaves much to be desired. He is super ball dominant, often dribbles out the clock before passing it up and does this on purpose to ensure he gets the assist. He is a good shooter, but is un selfish to a fault.

He is a proffesional, a great locker room guy and team mate.. but we tend to over rate these sort of attributes. Yes I agree that its important to be a proffesional, but when you start over rating a player because of his professionalism I think we get that confused with talent and skillset.

Lowry > calderon. hek GVZ > calderon.

I dont disagree with anyone you've said, but I think calderon dribbles and holds the ball a lot cus he's timing it hoping people come off screens and he tries to get the best shot possible, and if it doesnt present itself, hell jack it up or whatever. Calderon's defense isnt that bad, def bottom 20s but it's not as bad as Irvings and Lins.

albertajaysfan
08-21-2014, 12:22 AM
2008 - 53/43/91

2009 - 50/41/98

He's done it twice and come close numerous other times... very few players in the league can do that.

As for your TO theory, he played over 30mpg in a high paces offense last year and still only turned it over 1.3x per game. His assist to TO ratio has always been among the best in the league. And his career ORTG/DRTG is 119/112 which is pretty damn good. Compare that to Felton who was 103/111 last year and 103/109 for his career, you can see just how much of an upgrade NY got.

I seriously doubt PJ is looking at NY as a lottery team next year, this is probably the 2nd most talented team Melo has been on in NY outside of the 54 win team... he had a team featuring Jared Jeffries, a rookie Shumpert, Toney Douglas, Novak and Fields over .500 during his tenure here, that should say something.

Melo has had the most team success when he's had a PG that can run the show, like Billups and Kidd. So Calderon I think will help a lot more than some think.

Well I stand corrected on the shooting numbers but I still stand by the other things I said. I still believe though that trying to compete in any way shape or form this season would be an error on Phil's part.

Edit: To be honest I don't think Calderon will be part of the problem in NY at all this season. And he is easily an upgrade over Felton which isn't an accomplishment though. I don't think you will find a single person who will debate that.

rapsjaysfan88
08-21-2014, 12:05 PM
jose also played with some of the worst teams ever assembled, so that in itself didnt help.

rapsjaysfan88
08-21-2014, 12:07 PM
anyone who thinks the knicks r better then us needs to be heavily, heavily and I mean heavily medicated.

Bob_at_york
08-21-2014, 12:08 PM
jose also played with some of the worst teams ever assembled, so that in itself didnt help.

when?

rapsjaysfan88
08-21-2014, 12:13 PM
when?

umm every yr except our 47 win team? ring a bell?

Bob_at_york
08-21-2014, 12:31 PM
umm every yr except our 47 win team? ring a bell?

I do remember those years. I think the worst they ever finished was with 22 wins. Let's toss out other teams histories like the Clippers and such and just look at the raptors. Do you remember 97-98? Do you remember the Raptors first season? Do those ring a bell for you?

Hell the worst season that the Raptors had with Jose, was 2010-2011 and Jose didn't even play the full season which is probably part of the reason for the low win total.

I Rock Shaqs
08-21-2014, 01:12 PM
stop fronting, you know how you go on with me. Im sick of it. there was a time when I respected you as a poster. Now I see you as someone who trolls me. get off my dick.

Do you need a hug?

rapsjaysfan88
08-21-2014, 02:44 PM
I do remember those years. I think the worst they ever finished was with 22 wins. Let's toss out other teams histories like the Clippers and such and just look at the raptors. Do you remember 97-98? Do you remember the Raptors first season? Do those ring a bell for you?

Hell the worst season that the Raptors had with Jose, was 2010-2011 and Jose didn't even play the full season which is probably part of the reason for the low win total.

those other yrs are a mute point cuz jose was not an nba player and 22 wins is terrible hence ur point is?

Bob_at_york
08-21-2014, 02:52 PM
those other yrs are a mute point cuz jose was not an nba player and 22 wins is terrible hence ur point is?
You said he played on some of the worst teams ever assembled. How is 22 wins one of the worst teams ever assembled? Do you not remember Charlotte's 7 wins a couple of years back? The Bucks only won 15 games last season! How can you make an argument that Jose was part of some of the teams ever assembled? You need to pay more attention to the rest of the NBA man. My point is you are way off on your analysis.

LanceUpperCut
08-21-2014, 02:56 PM
those other yrs are a mute point cuz jose was not an nba player and 22 wins is terrible hence ur point is?

I think he's just calling you out on your exaggerated statement.

smith&wesson
08-22-2014, 02:01 PM
If lou williams returns to form he could be a vital piece on this team. A couple seasons ago he lead the 76ers in scoring and he did it off the bench.

GVZ, Williams, Patman, JJ could be a really good bench if all goes to plan. Not too worried about our 2nd unit at all.

smith&wesson
08-22-2014, 02:09 PM
Do you need a hug?

you just want a reason to hug me ;)

ink
09-27-2014, 05:42 PM
Amazingly, the Knicks are getting some playoff predictions from NBA TV analysts like Grant Hill.

canzano55
09-27-2014, 06:13 PM
The Knicks are a carbon copy of the leafs - every year the fan base overrates them and then the team falls on their face.

The loss they had against LA at home last year was especially bad. It was a basketball holocaust I've never seen before ; they're probably still reeling from it.

Bramaca
09-28-2014, 09:42 AM
Amazingly, the Knicks are getting some playoff predictions from NBA TV analysts like Grant Hill.

The Knicks are in the same boat as many teams where there is talent but it will all depend on chemistry and system. They get that going and they are likely in the playoffs. I believe they are going to a ball movement offense (triangle) and Jackson is very well known for getting difficult personalities to gel so it wouldn't be a surprise IMO.

The Raps could be in for a challenge this year, not necesarily from other teams. Chemistry is hard to maintain in a team and can disappear quickly and the Raps have a lot of things going on that could hurt that chemistry IMO. A deep team is a nice luxury but can also unravel a team in many ways.

canzano55
09-28-2014, 11:30 AM
I'm not worried about our chemistry at all.

I'm worried about the teams confidence however - seeing as they're quite young as a whole if we get off to a very slow start it could be psychologically damaging.

As long they continue to play rigorous defense then results will inevitably follow.

Jamiecballer
09-28-2014, 12:03 PM
Amazingly, the Knicks are getting some playoff predictions from NBA TV analysts like Grant Hill.
They will get in but they will be so atrocious defensively that they will be somebody's doormat in the first round

aman_13
09-28-2014, 02:05 PM
If the Knicks are making the playoffs, which playoff team from last season isn't making it this season?

ChongInc.
09-28-2014, 02:10 PM
I'm not worried about our chemistry at all.

I'm worried about the teams confidence however - seeing as they're quite young as a whole if we get off to a very slow start it could be psychologically damaging.

As long they continue to play rigorous defense then results will inevitably follow.

I've been thinking the opposite. A slow start might be the best thing for this team long term. We have a lot of resilient fighters. A slow start might help them focus on defense and realize they need to come in balling, not just turn it on in the 4th.
Obviously i hope they come out of the gate on fire, but a slow start wouldn't be the end of the world.

Abdul Mutalib
09-28-2014, 05:56 PM
I've been thinking the opposite. A slow start might be the best thing for this team long term. We have a lot of resilient fighters. A slow start might help them focus on defense and realize they need to come in balling, not just turn it on in the 4th.
Obviously i hope they come out of the gate on fire, but a slow start wouldn't be the end of the world.

I actually dont mind a slow start as well. Reason being if there is an early hot streak, it may might get to the their heads and lead to not playing the right way all the way thru the season. I just want a gradual progression of play, staying competitive in all their games, and winning the games they're "supposed" to win.

pebloemer
09-29-2014, 12:26 PM
If the Knicks are making the playoffs, which playoff team from last season isn't making it this season?

Pacers.

However, assuming the Cavs are also in the playoffs, that is two teams that would be out from last year. I still have the Knicks outside the playoff picture, but I don't deny that they could get there if things went right. Likewise, many of the teams in the 2nd tier in the East (Washington, Toronto, Nets, Charlotte, Atlanta, Miami) could get easily ousted with a significant injury. There are a lot of unknown variables that will play out.