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View Full Version : Six year career with two MVPs: Hall of Fame?



Rentzias
08-12-2014, 12:13 PM
Does a player with two MVPs in a six-year career get in the HoF?

Minimal
08-12-2014, 12:57 PM
Yes

mightybosstone
08-12-2014, 01:21 PM
I believe so, but when that player would be inducted would depend on a lot of factors. If I'm not mistaken, every MVP in league history has made the Hall of Fame, and I don't anticipate that trend ending any time soon unless you see someone have a Bill Walton-esque career without the collegiate career to back up his candidacy for the Hall.

Derrick Rose, for example, would be a very interesting case. Suppose he came back strong this year and earned a second MVP but suffered a significant injury that he could never come back from. Would two great MVP seasons and an otherwise injury-riddled, so-so career be enough to get him into the Hall of Fame? Probably, but it would take several years for him to get inducted.

FlashBolt
08-12-2014, 01:25 PM
Depends on how good they were in those seasons.

Shlumpledink
08-12-2014, 01:36 PM
Depends why the short career.

Started late? Retired early due to injury? Died? Yes, probably.

Went to jail? Gambled on the sport? Probably not

Minimal
08-12-2014, 02:37 PM
I take my words back, as I understand this question has something to do with Derrick Rose as he is going into his 6th season and has 1 MVP behind his back. Well assuming a player winning an MVP 2 times, pretty much proves he was a top 1-3 player those years and was a great player all around his career, which in case of Rose can't be said about him, he was one of the weakest MVPs ever and had only 1 superstar year in his career. If Rose adds another MVP like that, I would still question his Hall Of Fame chances.

FlashBolt
08-12-2014, 02:38 PM
Rose is overrated. In his career, he truly only has one great season. Think about it.. 5 years and only 1 great season?

ManRam
08-12-2014, 02:42 PM
If they're also very good the other 4 years and had won a ring or two, I'd say definitely. 2 MVPs is I think is almost automatically HOF stuff. Only 14 players have ever won 2. That's amazing company right there and I think the peak play would get him in. I think shlumpledink makes a good point about WHY he only played 6 years, but assuming it was because of an injury or death I think it would be a slam dunk.

I know Walton was helped by an amazing college career which probably helped him get in, but he kinda fits this mold to a loose extent. 2 championships, 1 finals MVP, 1 MVP in really only 6-7 full-ish years. His total games played of 468 isn't 6 full 82 game seasons.


EDIT: If Rose somehow wins an MVP and a championship this year before a career ending injury in the offseason or something, I think he would get in. If that's what this is about. Though, hearing a name makes me less convinced than before. A really convincing MVP win would almost be a must because I have a feeling his MVP win will be looked at as one of the weaker ones.

king4day
08-12-2014, 02:48 PM
If they had 5-6 All Star years, then perhaps. It's really going to depend on what his teams did too.

And naturally, it'll depend on what that player did in College and International play since it's an extremely little amount of work.

I wouldn't put Rose in the HoF currently despite what he did when healthy.

FraziersKnicks
08-12-2014, 03:01 PM
If Rose comes back and plays at a borderline all-star level (18 and 6 on 43% shooting) and makes a couple more all-star games but never makes another All-NBA team or wins a championship will he make the HOF? Due to injuries could Derrick Rose be the first MVP to not make the hall?

Rentzias
08-12-2014, 04:29 PM
Not a Rose-specific thread. Just trying to see what weight MVPs or longevity hold in HoF choice.

Rentzias
08-12-2014, 04:30 PM
Let's say elite all six years, retired due to injury, no college or international achievements, no titles.

mightybosstone
08-12-2014, 05:18 PM
I know Walton was helped by an amazing college career which probably helped him get in, but he kinda fits this mold to a loose extent. 2 championships, 1 finals MVP, 1 MVP in really only 6-7 full-ish years. His total games played of 468 isn't 6 full 82 game seasons.
I actually think Walton did enough in his NBA career to warrant induction into the Hall of Fame without his collegiate background. If you have those kinds of accolades in your prime and then manage to win another title as a key piece to another championship team despite major injuries early in your career, you've done enough to earn induction. His collegiate career just made him a lock.


EDIT: If Rose somehow wins an MVP and a championship this year before a career ending injury in the offseason or something, I think he would get in. If that's what this is about. Though, hearing a name makes me less convinced than before. A really convincing MVP win would almost be a must because I have a feeling his MVP win will be looked at as one of the weaker ones.

I wouldn't put Rose in the HoF currently despite what he did when healthy.
Personally, I wouldn't put Rose in the Hall of Fame unless he won a super convincing MVP this season and made it to at least the NBA Finals this season. And even then, I don't know that it's deserving enough to make it to the Hall. But it's not up to us, and when you look at the history of Hall of Fame induction, it's pretty damn easy to make it in basketball.

Look at Wes Unseld as the minimum requirement to make it. The guy peaked as a rookie with a weak MVP and his only All-NBA selection and pretty much went downhill from there. He only played in five All-Star games in 13 seasons, never made an All-Defensive team and his one title was as the third or fourth best player on that Bullets squad in 78. He's a career 11/14/4 player with weak advanced stats.

If Unseld can get in with that resume than Rose could probably get in with just two years as a top 5 player and two weak MVPs. The fact that he helped Memphis make the NCAA championship his only year in college and that he's participated with Team USA basketball will only help his case.

mightybosstone
08-12-2014, 05:21 PM
Let's say elite all six years, retired due to injury, no college or international achievements, no titles.

If the player was truly elite for all six years and had two solid MVPs, then I think he deserves it regardless of the lack of collegiate or international play. Then again, I'm a sucker for strong peaks and primes over longevity. If you were a top 5-10 player in the league for six straight years, posted elite production and performed well enough in the playoffs to make a couple of decent postseason runs, then you should be inducted. I'd much rather have that guy inducted than a mediocre player who plays okay basketball for 15 years, gets lucky to make a couple of All-Star teams and wins a title or two as the fourth or fifth best guy on a championship squad.

JasonJohnHorn
08-13-2014, 09:06 AM
You need context, but my guess is yes.

Take a guy like Luke, er, I mean Bill Walton.

Bill Walton took his team to a championship, won MVP, got injured... A LOT took a couple years off completlely (and pretty much 4 years in reality, not to mention all the short seasons), came back to win 6th and contribute to another contender, but all in all, he only played one full season.

MVP? Well... just his NBA career alone he did more than 99% of the league does: He won a finals MVP and a regular season MVP. Only one guy out of over 400 does either in a given year and even fewer win both in their careers.

On top of that, he had what may be the best college career ever (him and Lew Alcinder). So, yeah... shoo-in for the HOF.

Now... if he came in, have Iverson like numbes, got an MVP, never made it to the finals, and then got kicked out for drugs or gambling, and he had come straight out of highschool with no college resume and never played overseass.... then no. But that has never happened as far as I know. At least not in basketball.

JasonJohnHorn
08-13-2014, 09:09 AM
I actually think Walton did enough in his NBA career to warrant induction into the Hall of Fame without his collegiate background. If you have those kinds of accolades in your prime and then manage to win another title as a key piece to another championship team despite major injuries early in your career, you've done enough to earn induction. His collegiate career just made him a lock.



Personally, I wouldn't put Rose in the Hall of Fame unless he won a super convincing MVP this season and made it to at least the NBA Finals this season. And even then, I don't know that it's deserving enough to make it to the Hall. But it's not up to us, and when you look at the history of Hall of Fame induction, it's pretty damn easy to make it in basketball.
+1

Despite his injuries... dude won TWO titles, a finals MVP, and regular season MVP and a 6th man award, all while battling serious injuries that most guy would have given up with after 4 years. Name one other player who has accomplished all that with that adversity.

There isn't one.


College career alone deserves HOF. NBA career alone deserves HOF. Combined? Forgetaboutit.

mightybosstone
08-13-2014, 09:16 AM
Another really good example for a thread like this would be Kevin Durant's career. Durant has played seven seasons of basketball, has one MVP, one NBA Finals appearance, five All-Star teams and five all-NBA 1st teams. He's basically averaged at least 27/7/3/1/1 in the last five seasons with insane efficiency and his one MVP was a damn strong one.

If we don't take into consideration his international play or Naismith award in college, would Durant be a Hall of Famer if he got hurt tomorrow and never played another game of basketball for the rest of his life? I say yes.

ManRam
08-13-2014, 09:48 AM
Another really good example for a thread like this would be Kevin Durant's career. Durant has played seven seasons of basketball, has one MVP, one NBA Finals appearance, five All-Star teams and five all-NBA 1st teams. He's basically averaged at least 27/7/3/1/1 in the last five seasons with insane efficiency and his one MVP was a damn strong one.

If we don't take into consideration his international play or Naismith award in college, would Durant be a Hall of Famer if he got hurt tomorrow and never played another game of basketball for the rest of his life? I say yes.

B-R's HoF probability thing is kinda wonky at times, but they have him at 87.4%. I too think he'd get in. His peak play has been without a doubt historic.

I think an insane peak without longevity is enough for me. But there are no real clear rules on any of this stuff so it's all super subjective.

PhillyFaninLA
08-13-2014, 10:24 AM
I need more information about the player and keep in mind its the basketball and not the NBA hall of fame so I'd also need to know about complete body of basketball work.

PhillyFaninLA
08-13-2014, 10:25 AM
Another really good example for a thread like this would be Kevin Durant's career. Durant has played seven seasons of basketball, has one MVP, one NBA Finals appearance, five All-Star teams and five all-NBA 1st teams. He's basically averaged at least 27/7/3/1/1 in the last five seasons with insane efficiency and his one MVP was a damn strong one.

If we don't take into consideration his international play or Naismith award in college, would Durant be a Hall of Famer if he got hurt tomorrow and never played another game of basketball for the rest of his life? I say yes.

If he got hurt tomorrow absolutely, if he just retired and I don't think so.

mightybosstone
08-13-2014, 10:28 AM
If he got hurt tomorrow absolutely, if he just retired and I don't think so.

I honestly don't think it matters. The only way he doesn't make the Hall of Fame with his current resume is if there's a negative reason why he is forced to quit basketball. If he went to prison for something or took performance enhancing drugs, that might impact his Hall of Fame candidacy. But if he just decided tomorrow that he's done as much as he wants to with his NBA career and wanted to move on to a different stage in his life, I don't think that would negatively impact his legacy so much as to prevent him from reaching the Hall of Fame.

ThompsonTwins
08-13-2014, 12:39 PM
Rose is overrated. In his career, he truly only has one great season. Think about it.. 5 years and only 1 great season?

And that one "great season" was overateded aswell. That was the weakest "league just trying to find someone from the East MVP ever".

Usually MVP's are more like 28ppg 11 rebounds 4 blocks or whatever. Not 24ppg 7 assist 46% shooting. Not Marbury basically.

Even Michael Jordan has said that players today don't have to work for it anymore. I've given it some thought and seen that the league does try to sell the younger player more because it's new money and they think it's more revenue.

Minimal
08-13-2014, 01:05 PM
And that one "great season" was overateded aswell. That was the weakest "league just trying to find someone from the East MVP ever".

Usually MVP's are more like 28ppg 11 rebounds 4 blocks or whatever. Not 24ppg 7 assist 46% shooting. Not Marbury basically.

Even Michael Jordan has said that players today don't have to work for it anymore. I've given it some thought and seen that the league does try to sell the younger player more because it's new money and they think it's more revenue.
Roses FG% was .445, his PER was 23.5, his ws/48 only .208, thats not an MVP. Westbrook puts those numbers almost every year. Insteresting fact is Westbrook averaged 25.5 PPG 8.1 APG 6.7 RPG 2.2 SPG per36 last season, did he win an MVP?

slashsnake
08-13-2014, 06:37 PM
If we don't take into consideration his international play or Naismith award in college, would Durant be a Hall of Famer if he got hurt tomorrow and never played another game of basketball for the rest of his life? I say yes.

Absolutely. Done more than Mitch Richmond already by a LOT if you ask me.

4 time NBA scoring leader, 3 times in the playoffs.. Rookie of the year, MVP, 2nd in MVP 3 times. Player of the Month 11 times (Richmond never) of the week 18 times (Richmond twice), All NBA first team 5 times (Richmond zero, 2nd and 3rd team total 5 times), carried a team to the finals (Mitch played 4 minutes in his playoff run there).

For the last 5 years he was the 2nd best player in the NBA to Lebron. For Mitch Richmonds best 5 year span he was arguably in that 10-20 range.