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View Full Version : Are the Cavaliers Building a Potential Dynasty?



Nikeman
08-08-2014, 01:03 AM
It all makes sense as to why LeBron wants to "run home". His Cavs may very well be in the process of building a potential dynasty.

With the speculated trade of Wiggins/Bennett and 1st for Love, the Cavaliers still have the non-guaranteed contracts they traded for with Utah to use as potential assets, and two 1sts in next years draft. I can easily see them trading those non-guaranteed contracts capable center this year.

In 2015, Brendan Haywood I believe has his contract jump from 2 million this season a 10.5 million non-guaranteed contract next season which would allow the Cavaliers to bring back a player with a 12 million+ salary for 2015 which could be the potential addition of another all-star type player and give them a legit Big 4, and if Waitors develops a Big 5 lol.

With multiple first rounders next season (if the Cavs keep them), if the Cavs draft properly, they will also be able to keep a steady stable of youth on the team as well, and their core Big 3 of Love (25), Irving (22), and LeBron (29) are currently all under 30. Waitors the 4th best player on the team is 22 and going to be a RFA allowing the Cavs to match any offer that comes his way keeping him locked up long-term as well.

Of course the Cavs are going to get every old FA (Mike Miller, Marion, Ray Allen) type players at vet min-deals as well.

Cavs have all the pieces to keep a winning team for many years to come which may be the mistake the HEAT made in trading away all our picks and assets and thus aging very quickly and not having any youth on the team.

Nikeman
08-08-2014, 01:18 AM
http://www.foxsports.com/ohio/story/cleveland-cavaliers-report-trade-kevin-love-andrew-wiggins-appears-to-be-done-deal-080714

"9. The Cavs have a few options to land another big man, either via trade or with a minimum-level salary. One is a younger player, the other has "been around the block," according to a FOX Sports Ohio source."

"12. Finally, the Cavs feel center Brendan Haywood may have a little something left in the tank. At 7-feet tall, Haywood has the size the Cavs want. His expiring contract next year is also viewed as a huge asset. Haywood's deal enables the Cavs to take back $15 million in a trade and teams have asked about him. Haywood, 34, missed all of last season in Charlotte with a foot injury."

Iron24th
08-08-2014, 01:40 AM
a dynasty? Loool let's see if their "all offense" roster is capable of winning some playoffs series first.

Avenged
08-08-2014, 01:58 AM
Hah!

Chavacano
08-08-2014, 02:05 AM
Like the one they built in Miami?

mngopher35
08-08-2014, 02:56 AM
I mean they are trying, like most teams. They have a very solid group with young talent mixed in with vets. They need a center (defensive) as mentioned and at some point might want a defensive minded wing who can shoot (likely have ray/marion combo for this season). Their young players need to develop and they need to have good team defense (meaning defensive improvements from kyrie, love, waiters plays good on that end etc.)

It is way too early to know if they can even win one or two titles, let alone dynasty talk. They do have questions to be answered but it isn't impossible if everything goes right.

Confusious
08-08-2014, 02:58 AM
Like the one they built in Miami?
Totally the same thing.

2010:
Wade - 28 years old
Bosh - 26 years old
Bron - 25 years old

2014:
Love - 25 years old
Irving - 22 years old
Bron - 29 years old

TheSilentBang
08-08-2014, 03:31 AM
Lets see if Kyrie can play off ball.

Personally, I think their the best in the East but the lackluster defense (only LeBron and Varejou are relevant defenders on their entire roster, not just starting lineup) will hold them back quite a bit from beating a West team in the Finals.

They need to trade for some 3 & D guys. Miller and Allen only bring 3 but no D. The Cavs need the D.

Confusious
08-08-2014, 03:40 AM
Lets see if Kyrie can play off ball.

Personally, I think their the best in the East but the lackluster defense (only LeBron and Varejou are relevant defenders on their entire roster, not just starting lineup) will hold them back quite a bit from beating a West team in the Finals.

They need to trade for some 3 & D guys. Miller and Allen only bring 3 but no D. The Cavs need the D.
So do I. :sigh:

seikou8
08-08-2014, 04:06 AM
of they are but cause lebron needs the perfect team to just to lose in finals to spurs,okc or clippers lets face he is the most overrated overhyped top 12-15 player of all time

goingfor28
08-08-2014, 04:11 AM
Kyrie must be ecstatic. The cavs have sucked since he was drafted. Now:
New max deal
Gets lebron
Gets love

He is one lucky young man.

Chavacano
08-08-2014, 04:36 AM
Kyrie must be ecstatic. The cavs have sucked since he was drafted. Now:
New max deal
Gets lebron
Gets love

He is one lucky young man.

^^ Sounds sensual.

Shlumpledink
08-08-2014, 04:45 AM
Cavs have two years to win before Lebron bolts to a team with a better roster, or they're going to be paying him into his twilight years to keep him.

thenaj17
08-08-2014, 05:41 AM
^^ Sounds sensual.

And quite possibly true, makes sense for it to follow the money ;)

hidalgo
08-08-2014, 06:14 AM
i'm gonna say they'll win 2 titles(i'll predict 2015 champs Cavs right now), but 3 wouldn't shock me at all. the championship drought in cleveland is going to end. this cavaliers team is gonna be great

jericho
08-08-2014, 06:20 AM
Lets see if Kyrie can play off ball.

Personally, I think their the best in the East but the lackluster defense (only LeBron and Varejou are relevant defenders on their entire roster, not just starting lineup) will hold them back quite a bit from beating a West team in the Finals.

They need to trade for some 3 & D guys. Miller and Allen only bring 3 but no D. The Cavs need the D.

They need the D!!! Lmao hahahaha sorry it was just to easy ;)

koreancabbage
08-08-2014, 08:36 AM
of they are but cause lebron needs the perfect team to just to lose in finals to spurs,okc or clippers lets face he is the most overrated overhyped top 12-15 player of all time

Didn't SA have the most perfect team?

things people say lol

prodigy
08-08-2014, 10:01 AM
I'm still holding off on judging their defense. Love, waiters and Irving were on bad teams so they never really pushed themselves to play defense, now they will.

MonroeFAN
08-08-2014, 10:03 AM
yes, any time you add the best player in the world you have a chance of becoming a dynasty.

Chronz
08-08-2014, 10:10 AM
Im starting to buy in. This might be the best team hes ever had in that case, just depends on Love and Kyrie being big game players.

And yes, Riley was a moron for surrendering so many picks and overpaying for guys like Haslem and Anthony. Its like he thought the big names would be all it takes to win and that peripheral guys would be easy to fill in.

Big Zo
08-08-2014, 10:17 AM
Im starting to buy in. This might be the best team hes ever had in that case, just depends on Love and Kyrie being big game players.

And yes, Riley was a moron for surrendering so many picks and overpaying for guys like Haslem and Anthony. Its like he thought the big names would be all it takes to win and that peripheral guys would be easy to fill in.

Except that they did win. : /

SlimKid
08-08-2014, 10:18 AM
Not sure about the dynasty label. They'll be a serious threat for awhile though. I'm not as sold on Kyrie as others are, but the surrounding talent should boost his game quite a bit.

D-Leethal
08-08-2014, 10:18 AM
Im starting to buy in. This might be the best team hes ever had in that case, just depends on Love and Kyrie being big game players.

And yes, Riley was a moron for surrendering so many picks and overpaying for guys like Haslem and Anthony. Its like he thought the big names would be all it takes to win and that peripheral guys would be easy to fill in.

The "Big 3" of '10 and '11 was better than Kyrie and Love. Whether he fell off a cliff or not over the past two seasons, when LeBron and Wade teamed up it was the unanimous #1 and the unanimous #3 player in the league. Kyrie and Love aren't sniffing stature of 2010 Wade and 2010 Bosh pretty damn close to 2014 Love.

Chronz
08-08-2014, 11:06 AM
The "Big 3" of '10 and '11 was better than Kyrie and Love. Whether he fell off a cliff or not over the past two seasons, when LeBron and Wade teamed up it was the unanimous #1 and the unanimous #3 player in the league. Kyrie and Love aren't sniffing stature of 2010 Wade and 2010 Bosh pretty damn close to 2014 Love.
Depends on how you look at it, those 3 players might be better but the rest of the team looks solid the more I talk myself into them staying healthy with reduced loads and Love maybe actually being worth his statistical salt.

But in terms of just the top 2 players
2010 Most likely
2011 was injury ravaged, I want to see how these guys mesh in 1 year before anything.

And the thing about 2010 is that it may have had the trio closer to their primes but looking at the rest of the roster and how it was utilized (Mike Bibby was a starter FFS, and they went conventional with offensive zeros at center), it was basically up to those 3 to do everything in a cramped lane. I'd argue that the 2011 squad was a better TEAM despite the decline of Wade, and as a result, I dont think its out of the question that these new guys top what Brons former team accomplished. This season will answer alot of questions I have regarding the talent in both Miami and Cleveland.

And Bosh had a great career year but it was unlikely he sustained it given how perfect everything went for him that year. Love is a better player than Bosh in that role, unlike Bosh tho, I've never seen the potential for elite defensive play in Love. So in a third guy role, Bosh is prolly the better fit, thats why its important for Love to produce in Cleveland. Hes not likely to make up for that statistical drop on the other end (imo anways). If he puts up ridiculous levels of efficiency then hes better than Bosh in any role.

nickdymez
08-08-2014, 11:09 AM
of they are but cause lebron needs the perfect team to just to lose in finals to spurs,okc or clippers lets face he is the most overrated overhyped top 12-15 player of all time
Exactly man. All this "best player in the world" crap is good until his team gets in the finals. And he loses.

Nikeman
08-08-2014, 12:02 PM
Yes the defense is poor, but what I am saying is that at the moment, the Cavs have 4 million in non-guaranteed deals, and next year, with Haywood having a 10.5 million non-guaranteed deal, they will be at close to 15 million.

That allows them to take back another max contract if they wanted to, such as a defensive big. For example, DeAndre Jordan becomes a FA next season, currently making 11 million. Cavs could get him for 12 million a year, 5 year/60 mill deal if LAC did a S&T for Jordan if he decided he didn't want to remain in LA.

DeAndre Jordan/Love/LeBron/Waitors/Irving would be downright sick in the sense that Jordan is one of the best rim protectors in the league and still young at 26.

That being said, they also still have picks, two first rounders next season I believe to keep the youth and young talent on the roster (if they can draft correctly)

The pieces are in place for them to remain relevant for a LONG time if they play the cards right.

NYKalltheway
08-08-2014, 12:12 PM
It'll all depend on whether they'll listen to the coach or try to play their own way. If they listen to the coach, it's gonna be hard to beat this team.

Goose17
08-08-2014, 12:43 PM
I love the "running home" stuff.

Lebron joins Miami; ARGHHH!!! HES A CHEAT! HES A COWARD! HE SHOULD PLAY FOR HIS HOME TEAM, HE TOOK LESS MONEY TO HELP MIAMI BRING IN MORE TALENT ITS NOT FAIR!!

Lebron leaves Miami, joins Cleveland; ARGHHH!! HES A CHEAT, HES RUNNING HOME! HE SHOULDN'T HAVE LEFT MIAMI, HE HAS AN OPT OUT CLAUSE TO GET HUGE MAX MONEY HES BEING GREEDY!! ITS NOT FAIR!!



Haters gonna hate I guess.


I wonder, what would Lebron have to do to get the haters off his back? smh.



Anyway, they might be a dynasty, who knows, time will tell.

Heatcheck
08-08-2014, 01:21 PM
Im starting to buy in. This might be the best team hes ever had in that case, just depends on Love and Kyrie being big game players.

And yes, Riley was a moron for surrendering so many picks and overpaying for guys like Haslem and Anthony. Its like he thought the big names would be all it takes to win and that peripheral guys would be easy to fill in.
he did what he had to do to sign them, you think he wanted to give up those picks?

Iron24th
08-08-2014, 01:47 PM
I love the "running home" stuff.

Lebron joins Miami; ARGHHH!!! HES A CHEAT! HES A COWARD! HE SHOULD PLAY FOR HIS HOME TEAM, HE TOOK LESS MONEY TO HELP MIAMI BRING IN MORE TALENT ITS NOT FAIR!!

Lebron leaves Miami, joins Cleveland; ARGHHH!! HES A CHEAT, HES RUNNING HOME! HE SHOULDN'T HAVE LEFT MIAMI, HE HAS AN OPT OUT CLAUSE TO GET HUGE MAX MONEY HES BEING GREEDY!! ITS NOT FAIR!!



Haters gonna hate I guess.


I wonder, what would Lebron have to do to get the haters off his back? smh.



Anyway, they might be a dynasty, who knows, time will tell.

Maybe lebron just trying to win without a super team would help his case, just sayin'

Goose17
08-08-2014, 02:16 PM
Maybe lebron just trying to win without a super team would help his case, just sayin'

List your top 10 players of all time. Point out how many won without a "super team"

Kobe? Shaq, Gasol, Bynum.
Jordan? Pippen, Rodman.
Duncan? Parker, Ginobili, Leonard.
Garnett? Rondo, Pierce, Allen.
Erving? Malone, Cheeks, Toney.
Isiah? Laimbeer, Dumars, Rodman.
Nowitzki? Kidd, Marion, Chandler.


Enough of the super team crap. The vast majority of championships were won by "super teams".

Hangin n Wangin
08-08-2014, 02:16 PM
Question: If Lebron and all you people think Lebron is so good, why does he have to form super teams? He must not have confidence in himself to win with a normally constructed NBA team, such as the Thunder or Spurs.

Clippersfan86
08-08-2014, 02:16 PM
I think talent wise they aren't good enough to be a dynasty (at least yet). Usually dynasties are teams that are clearly more talented than the field. This Cavs team even on paper may be only the 2nd or 3rd best team in the league this coming season. Then you factor in health, chemistry etc... and I don't see a case. If they win one this first year we can maybe broach the topic, but until then...

I think of dynasty's in the Bulls/Lakers/Celtics teams of old and they were all more balanced/stacked than the current Cavs off the top of my head. Those teams also had all time great role players that the Cavs currently lack. Can it form over the next year or two? Yes. Is it too soon to discuss this? YES.

FlashBolt
08-08-2014, 02:27 PM
The fact is, the best team with the best players usually wins the championship. If you want to whine about James having help, go whine about Kobe having Shaq and vice versa, Jordan having Pippen+Rodman, and all the other players. You guys pinning this down and acting as if a superteam is "news" these days is quite funny. Look what OKC has - Westbrook, Ibaka, and KD. LAC has DeAndre, Blake, and Paul. There are numerous superteams out there but apparently the one James joins is unfair.

Goose17
08-08-2014, 02:30 PM
Question: If Lebron and all you people think Lebron is so good, why does he have to form super teams? He must not have confidence in himself to win with a normally constructed NBA team, such as the Thunder or Spurs.

Thunder and Spurs are also super teams.

Super teams are teams with excessive amounts of talent, how they are formed is irrelevant.

Clippersfan86
08-08-2014, 02:30 PM
The fact is, the best team with the best players usually wins the championship. If you want to whine about James having help, go whine about Kobe having Shaq and vice versa, Jordan having Pippen+Rodman, and all the other players. You guys pinning this down and acting as if a superteam is "news" these days is quite funny. Look what OKC has - Westbrook, Ibaka, and KD. LAC has DeAndre, Blake, and Paul. There are numerous superteams out there but apparently the one James joins is unfair.

I think there is a difference in HOW they are formed and that is what people take issue with. If your stars are entirely homegrown like OKC/SA... you deserve nothing but props for beautiful drafting and doing your homework. If your stars are mostly homegrown and the 3rd is acquired by trade without any tampering/collusion involved like the Clippers, why would people get mad?

The difference here is Lebron recruited Love after he himself moved teams for the 3rd time in like 5 years for a better situation/roster. Morally, Lebron is obviously in the clear. In terms of the unspoken basketball code of most sports fans though, he loses major points in the eyes of 90 percent of people. Other players like Kobe/Jordan etc have demanded more help, so wanting to play with great players isn't the issue here.

The issue is how Lebron's teams get formed with him playing puppet master and bailing for greener pastures on two different occasions now in his prime.

Clippersfan86
08-08-2014, 02:32 PM
Thunder and Spurs are also super teams.

Super teams are teams with excessive amounts of talent, how they are formed is irrelevant.

How in the hell is that irrelevant? Buying championships vs Building them from scratch has a hugely different reward among sports fans. Putting together two superstars in their prime, when neither were on the roster last year means far less to the city/NBA fans than say if Love/Lebron both were drafted by Cleveland and were winning the ring.

It's like my view on Blake vs CP3. I will NEVER support CP3 as much as I do Blake, no matter what CP3 accomplishes. Blake was drafted by us and was the face of the franchise before CP3 came along. HE is the one who started the culture change. CP3 we acquired through trade, so although I like him... he will never be OURS completely in terms of fans. I'm sure Spurs/Mavs/Lakers/Celtics fans understand this with their career stars.

Goose17
08-08-2014, 02:34 PM
Also, worth remembering MJ (Lebron) came back from retirement (entered free agency), signed with his old team Chicago (Cleveland) when they already had Pippen (Irving) and they traded for for Rodman (Love).

Just saying... it's not like Rodman was drafted by Chicago or anything. Trades and free agency are legitimate way of forming big 3s. Sorry if people feel differently.

Clippersfan86
08-08-2014, 02:39 PM
Also, worth remembering MJ (Lebron) came back from retirement (entered free agency), signed with his old team Chicago (Cleveland) when they already had Pippen (Irving) and they traded for for Rodman (Love).

Just saying... it's not like Rodman was drafted by Chicago or anything. Trades and free agency are legitimate way of forming big 3s. Sorry if people feel differently.

First off Pippen was there with Jordan PRIOR to Jordan's leave for baseball. He blossomed when he took on a bigger role, but Jordan was always coming back to the Bulls IF he returned. It was never a case of bailing for greener pastures, but rather fulfilling his first love of baseball in honor of his father. So Jordan didn't construct anything. The team acquired Rodman who was a great player (not drafted by the Bulls) but there wasn't any rumors of Jordan orchestrating that. That was more Krause seeing how much problems Rodman/ the Pistons gave the Bulls over the years and wanting to join forces.

Trades and free agency is legit. What isn't "legit" is tampering/colluding on two occasions to get MULTIPLE superstars together. These are obviously only rumors and speculation but the end result/little facts we do know point to probable collusion in both 2010 and now. Tell me an instance where Jordan did that?

Goose17
08-08-2014, 02:40 PM
How in the hell is that irrelevant? Buying championships vs Building them from scratch has a hugely different reward among sports fans. Putting together two superstars in their prime, when neither were on the roster last year means far less to the city/NBA fans than say if Love/Lebron both were drafted by Cleveland and were winning the ring.

It's like my view on Blake vs CP3. I will NEVER support CP3 as much as I do Blake, no matter what CP3 accomplishes. Blake was drafted by us and was the face of the franchise before CP3 came along. HE is the one who started the culture change. CP3 we acquired through trade, so although I like him... he will never be OURS completely in terms of fans. I'm sure Spurs/Mavs/Lakers/Celtics fans understand this with their career stars.

You're being a sentimental fool. See my above post.


And it is irrelevant. Trades have always been a part of the NBA. As has free agency. Both are legit means of forming a team.

You can only win a title if you drafted all of the stars on your team?

Okay well then, scrap the Lakers titles that involved Shaq and Pau (that's ALL of Kobes rings) since they traded for both guys.

Scrap Jordans second threepeat since they traded for Rodman.

Scrap the Lakers show time championships, they traded for Kareem who forced his way out of Milwaukee.

Scrap the Celtics recent title run, they traded for Allen and Garnett.



Need I go on?

Goose17
08-08-2014, 02:41 PM
The team acquired Rodman who was a great player (not drafted by the Bulls) but there wasn't any rumors of Jordan orchestrating that.

Right but you literally JUST cried about trading for stars instead of drafting them.

Goose17
08-08-2014, 02:43 PM
Trades and free agency is legit. What isn't "legit" is tampering/colluding on two occasions to get MULTIPLE superstars together. These are obviously only rumors and speculation but the end result/little facts we do know point to probable collusion in both 2010 and now. Tell me an instance where Jordan did that?

Tell me how trading for Love is tampering?

Love wanted out of Minnesota and refused to sign an extension with a non-contender. Cavs gave the best offer, Minnesota accepted.

Unless you think Lebron and Love have been planning this for four years? In which case you are not only a hater (which you clearly are after that ludicrous thread you made about them) but you're also insane.

Goose17
08-08-2014, 02:44 PM
How do you feel about Dov Rivers? Considering you traded for him...

Hangin n Wangin
08-08-2014, 02:54 PM
Thunder and Spurs are also super teams.

Super teams are teams with excessive amounts of talent, how they are formed is irrelevant.

No it isn't irrelavent. Are you freaking kidding? These Big Three talk to each other and coallate to join together so they could win titles. It's freaking unfair. The Spurs and Thunder don't do any of this garbage. Go back to your Lebron cave.

Confusious
08-08-2014, 02:54 PM
I'm still holding off on judging their defense. Love, waiters and Irving were on bad teams so they never really pushed themselves to play defense, now they will.
This is a good point. I hope Blatt can get the best out of these guys on the defensive side. Especially with LeBron. He'd yell at Chalmers and make him his whipping boy if he was a mook on the defense.

Let's be honest. Defense can be taught. Offense... not so easily taught.


I love the "running home" stuff.

Lebron joins Miami; ARGHHH!!! HES A CHEAT! HES A COWARD! HE SHOULD PLAY FOR HIS HOME TEAM, HE TOOK LESS MONEY TO HELP MIAMI BRING IN MORE TALENT ITS NOT FAIR!!

Lebron leaves Miami, joins Cleveland; ARGHHH!! HES A CHEAT, HES RUNNING HOME! HE SHOULDN'T HAVE LEFT MIAMI, HE HAS AN OPT OUT CLAUSE TO GET HUGE MAX MONEY HES BEING GREEDY!! ITS NOT FAIR!!

Haters gonna hate I guess.
I wonder, what would Lebron have to do to get the haters off his back? smh.
Join all 28 other teams just to appease the few little cry babies. :rolleyes:

Clippersfan86
08-08-2014, 02:55 PM
You're being a sentimental fool. See my above post.


And it is irrelevant. Trades have always been a part of the NBA. As has free agency. Both are legit means of forming a team.

You can only win a title if you drafted all of the stars on your team?

Okay well then, scrap the Lakers titles that involved Shaq and Pau (that's ALL of Kobes rings) since they traded for both guys.

Scrap Jordans second threepeat since they traded for Rodman.

Scrap the Lakers show time championships, they traded for Kareem who forced his way out of Milwaukee.

Scrap the Celtics recent title run, they traded for Allen and Garnett.



Need I go on?

Irrelevant is relative. If you want to get technical, sports in general can be taken as irrelevant to life. It's a hobby. I never said that the titles don't count. I merely said if you don't see the difference between buying championships and growing them from the perspective of FANS (fan means fanatical, often logic doesn't apply) you're the fool here. I wasn't saying it was right or wrong, but rather explaining WHY there is a difference.


1. You obviously don't remember how Kobe and Shaq joined. Kobe was a fu**ing rookie... who came out of HS and was a wild card. He was drafted the year the Lakers signed Shaq in free agency. He played behind Eddie Jones mostly for two years. Shaq WAS a superstar already but signed on a team WITHOUT a current "superstar". Not sure how this is similar. They did NOT trade for Shaq. Pau Gasol was an all star, but FAR from a recognized superstar on the Grizzlies.

2. Rodman is just a two time all star and was more of a monster role player than a "superstar". Plus as mentioned above, Jordan wasn't colluding or tampering to get Rodman to the Bulls. Nothing wrong with adding talent through free agency. Both Jordan/Pippen gave Krause the okay on Rodman.. but they let management handle it. They weren't "calling him to lure him" or whatever Woj reported on Lebron/Love.

3. You said it yourself.. Kareem FORCED his way out of Milwaukee and Magic didn't beg the guy to go there. Kareem didn't even like Magic at first.


I can go on and on, but it's not worth it. The point is... joining other stars isn't the root issue here. HOW it's accomplished is the issue people have.

Clippersfan86
08-08-2014, 02:59 PM
Tell me how trading for Love is tampering?

Love wanted out of Minnesota and refused to sign an extension with a non-contender. Cavs gave the best offer, Minnesota accepted.

Unless you think Lebron and Love have been planning this for four years? In which case you are not only a hater (which you clearly are after that ludicrous thread you made about them) but you're also insane.

You're not using your head. I'm not blasting the Cavs organization for making these moves. In fact they were brilliant moves and Griffin deserves Exec of the year NO QUESTION. I'm calling out HOW Lebron is doing this. The tampering comes from Lebron calling Kevin Love right after signing and convincing him to come to Cleveland as reported by Woj of all people. It's tampering because Love was under contract with another team when Lebron was trying to lure him in private phone calls.

Then you look back at 2010 free agency and the whole thing was clearly staged. Lebron/Wade/Bosh dealt with collusion claims for the whole first season as more facts of how it came together was brought to the surface. Anyone that doesn't believe Lebron/Wade/Bosh all planned to team up through collusion is blind. In fact rumors swirled that the talks started during the Olympics two years prior.

Also you seem to be applying selective reading here because in multiple threads I clearly said this was a great trade for both teams. I'm not complaining about the trade. I'm addressing your point that nobody has a reason to criticize Lebron for all of this.

Goose17
08-08-2014, 03:01 PM
1. You obviously don't remember how Kobe and Shaq joined. Kobe was a fu**ing rookie... who came out of HS and was a wild card. He was drafted the year the Lakers signed Shaq in free agency. He played behind Eddie Jones mostly for two years. Shaq WAS a superstar already but signed on a team WITHOUT a current "superstar". Not sure how this is similar. They did NOT trade for Shaq. Pau Gasol was an all star, but FAR from a recognized superstar on the Grizzlies.


1. Shaq was told "we're going to get this kid Kobe, you should see him play, he will be a supersar some day" go read his autobiography.

2. You're right, I meant to say free agency... like how Cleveland signed Lebron. Again YOU are the one saying unless teams drafted them it's not the same.





2. Rodman is just a two time all star and was more of a monster role player than a "superstar". Plus as mentioned above, Jordan wasn't colluding or tampering to get Rodman to the Bulls. Nothing wrong with adding talent through free agency. Both Jordan/Pippen gave Krause the okay on Rodman.. but they let management handle it. They weren't "calling him to lure him" or whatever Woj reported on Lebron/Love.


Lebron wasn't tampering either. Prove other wise.

And again, they TRADED for Rodman, YOU said trades and free agency aren't the same as drafting, you're the one crying about CP3.





3. You said it yourself.. Kareem FORCED his way out of Milwaukee and Magic didn't beg the guy to go there. Kareem didn't even like Magic at first.


Again, he FORCED his way out, who gives a crap if he liked Magic. He wanted to go to a team and forced himself to be traded there sort of like.... oh yeah, Kevin Love.



You're being a sentimental fool. How a team is formed is irrelevant and the Cavs haven't done anything different from any other NBA team. You're a hater, plain and simple. You've proven it time and time again.


How do you feel about Doc? You traded for him... how wrong. If you win a title it doesn't count because you traded and signed people in free agency. You're supposed to draft your entire roster SMH... wtf are you on.

Goose17
08-08-2014, 03:02 PM
No it isn't irrelavent. Are you freaking kidding? These Big Three talk to each other and coallate to join together so they could win titles. It's freaking unfair. The Spurs and Thunder don't do any of this garbage. Go back to your Lebron cave.

Which big 3? Irving, Love and Lebron?

Show me one shred of evidence that Love planned this with Lebron? He was about to be dealt to Golden State FFS.

Confusious
08-08-2014, 03:03 PM
I can go on and on, but it's not worth it. The point is... joining other stars isn't the root issue here. HOW it's accomplished is the issue people have.
Right. But whose right is it for the average couch sitter to judge what athletes decide to do with their professional careers? We see a lot of that for sports fans. People who play GM and pretend they know how much a player is worth, whether you should trade for someone, etc etc. And then you have people that say "we" in regards to the team that they support, as if they are part of the team just because they support them with their money (ticket sales, merchandise, league pass, etc) when in reality they're delusional. Sports fans are the most self loving morons I think I have ever encountered.

No, Bob, you are not part of the Cleveland Cavaliers. Please stop pretending you are. And it's great you support the franchise with your money, but that doesn't mean your opinion matters on the subject of where athletes go, or moreover, HOW they go there.

/rant

Clippersfan86
08-08-2014, 03:05 PM
Kareem WAS criticized for forcing his way out of Milwaukee, especially after he won a championship there. Not sure what point you're making. I'm saying demanding a trade off of a team is not in the same realm as going to a team and recruiting other superstars still under contract on other teams. The fact that your logic can even compose this apples to oranges comparison hurts my brain.

How in the **** is demanding a trade similar to tampering/collusion to surround yourself with other superstars LMAO? I'm trying to see it but I can't. What Shaq said in his bio means jack sh**. Shaq is a guy who talks A LOT and blows a lot of smoke. You don't see why now after the fact he may claim some great insight into Kobe being a future superstar haha? That's a pretty weak point.

Goose17
08-08-2014, 03:06 PM
Also, with how terrible the Cavs management was, who can blame Lebron for leaving, they were incapable of building around him. I mean he carried what might well be the WORST roster I have ever seen in an NBA finals (at least in the bottom 5). How much further can one player take a team?

Teams win titles. Not individuals.

And if your manager is a moron and incapable of building a good team, go away, have some success and come back home when they're ready to compete at some sort of decent level. I don't see an issue with that. Why should he suffer for another guys incompetence?

Clippersfan86
08-08-2014, 03:47 PM
Right. But whose right is it for the average couch sitter to judge what athletes decide to do with their professional careers? We see a lot of that for sports fans. People who play GM and pretend they know how much a player is worth, whether you should trade for someone, etc etc. And then you have people that say "we" in regards to the team that they support, as if they are part of the team just because they support them with their money (ticket sales, merchandise, league pass, etc) when in reality they're delusional. Sports fans are the most self loving morons I think I have ever encountered.

No, Bob, you are not part of the Cleveland Cavaliers. Please stop pretending you are. And it's great you support the franchise with your money, but that doesn't mean your opinion matters on the subject of where athletes go, or moreover, HOW they go there.

/rant

Opinions by their very definition don't "matter". Either all opinions matter, or none. It's not a selective idea. So to suggest opinions from people carry different weights based on career or living situation is absurd. You named yourself after a philosopher, yet didn't grasp this? "Right" is pretty much a subjective matter in itself. What may be a right in the eastern part of the world for example, may be taboo in the west and vice versa.

I speak in the term "we" not because it's a right, but because after 15 years of dedicated fan-
hood, I feel like I'm a part of the team in some distant way. Although considering that the NBA and teams themselves regularly call for fans to be more invested and consider themselves a part of the team, why do you take issue with this? Remember the recent commercial with Iggy and others that had the fans arms coming out of the body and then standing by the dozens behind the player? The whole marketing of the NBA right now is centered around that very concept. Then you have players in interviews saying things like "We want fans to feel like they are a part of the team".

Chronz
08-08-2014, 03:48 PM
How in the **** is demanding a trade similar to tampering/collusion to surround yourself with other superstars LMAO? I'm trying to see it but I can't.
Really? Its pretty ****ing clear isnt it? Even if you can prove one or the other, how are they different?

Cavalife
08-08-2014, 03:52 PM
I hope they're building a dynasty! Got a true point guard, good perimeter shooters, their big star. If they got a true center, they would truly be the best team in the NBA.

Clippersfan86
08-08-2014, 03:52 PM
Really? Its pretty ****ing clear isnt it? Even if you can prove one or the other, how are they different?

It's actually not clear. Magic didn't ask for Kareem, Kareem didn't ask for Magic. Kareem merely wanted off his existing team. The equivalent of this would be me attacking Kevin Love (if you did make this apples to orange comparison), which I haven't done once. Kevin Love has done nothing out of the ordinary here. It's Lebron James who I'm calling out.

Lebron now has two instances where collusion, or at the very least tampering is implied. I didn't claim it was fact that can be proven. But if you use logic it's obvious there is some backdoor stuff going on in both occasions and reputable people such as Woj reported on BOTH instances. I have no reason to assume Woj or other sources are making it up when it makes so much sense.

Hell even Grantland's article today on whether or not Love was overrated or underrated flat out said that collusion was likely occurring, in indirect terms.

Clippersfan86
08-08-2014, 03:53 PM
It's purely opinion like 99 percent of what is posted on forums (including from you Chronz), but yes I believe Lebron's legacy takes a hit the more things come to the surface regarding this and Miami's free agencies. Him wanting to play with great players isn't the issue. Him actively recruiting, often against NBA policy is the issue I have.

Clippersfan86
08-08-2014, 03:59 PM
Kevin Love essentially demanded a trade from a really bad situation (although not aggressively) and I'm not criticizing him, nor Cleveland. Kevin Love gave Minny a shot for a few years and wants to win, I understand that. Cleveland did nothing wrong here, but everything well (on and off the court). Minnesota and Cleveland both made fair, legit trades.

Lebron is the only one I'm questioning here. I feel like he's broken league rules on two occasions to pair up with superstars and recruits players more aggressively than I think I've ever seen in the 17 years or so I've watched the NBA. It's hard to respect that for me.

Chronz
08-08-2014, 04:00 PM
It's actually not clear. Magic didn't ask for Kareem, Kareem didn't ask for Magic. Kareem merely wanted off his existing team. The equivalent of this would be me attacking Kevin Love (if you did make this apples to orange comparison), which I haven't done once. Kevin Love has done nothing out of the ordinary here. It's Lebron James who I'm calling out.
Im not following the debate you 2 are having so its not about any specific example, just the action and why it would differ?

Kareem didn't merely want off his existing team, he wanted a very specific market. Dont see what Magic has to do with any of this considering he wasn't in the NBA in order to request a trade or "collude", both are the same to me, you're not following your contractual obligations. Tho Magic did threaten to return to College if he didn't happen to land on Kareems team and would eventually request a trade himself.

Given your examples, I dont see why either would be more/less honorable. Both are just cases of players taking action into their own hands.


Lebron now has two instances where collusion, or at the very least tampering is implied. I didn't claim it was fact that can be proven. But if you use logic it's obvious there is some backdoor stuff going on in both occasions and reputable people such as Woj reported on BOTH instances. I have no reason to assume Woj or other sources are making it up when it makes so much sense.
Wish Woj was here to make the argument for you, but how does he get over the fact that Miami had already tried to use their cap space before the Summer of Bron? Without that cap space, how do the 3 come together?


Hell even Grantland's article today on whether or not Love was overrated or underrated flat out said that collusion was likely occurring, in indirect terms.
Sounds like business as usual in the NBA. Par for the course IMO

Clippersfan86
08-08-2014, 04:06 PM
Chronz obviously I was a kid at the time of Magic/Kareem. I admit I just go off of books/articles and limited footage. If I'm mistaken on the forming of that team, it doesn't change my beef with Lebron. Goose is the one who said something like "then take the championships away from blank". Thing is... I NEVER said that if Lebron wins titles with Love/Kyrie, they should be discredited.

I'm just not liking that everyone is basically saying Lebron did all of this above board and that he's 100 percent in how he's handled this. His PR team has done one hell of a job for him this summer, that's for sure. Maybe collusion/tampering is par from the course but when I think of top 10 NBA players all time for example, I can't think of any instances of such elite of elite having such a hand in free agency/trade time and time again. It just feels shady, which again is my personal opinion only.

The trade itself is 100 percent legit/fair for both sides. No issue there. Nobody was cheated.

JordansBulls
08-08-2014, 04:08 PM
Jimmy Butler will shut down Lebron he is the Lebron stopper and that would end any chance the Cavs have.

east fb knicks
08-08-2014, 04:10 PM
:laugh: no

Arch Stanton
08-08-2014, 04:20 PM
This is a good point. I hope Blatt can get the best out of these guys on the defensive side. Especially with LeBron. He'd yell at Chalmers and make him his whipping boy if he was a mook on the defense.

Let's be honest. Defense can be taught. Offense... not so easily taught.


Join all 28 other teams just to appease the few little cry babies. :rolleyes:

Here's something that Pelton mentioned today in his chat:


The one thing I think needs to be kept in mind is defense isn't quite as simple as just adding up the individual talent. Scheme plays an enormous role. This time a year ago, would you have believed me if I told you a team with Al Jefferson and Josh McRoberts as its starting frontcourt would rank sixth in the NBA in defensive rating? The most important factor in Cleveland's defense next season is not Kevin Love or Kyrie Irving, it's David Blatt.

Hopefully Blatt can succeed in the NBA!

Clippersfan86
08-08-2014, 04:26 PM
I actually think defense is harder to get guys to buy into than offense, as well as harder to learn. Mainly because players are brought up leaning on their offense and very rarely on the defensive end of the court. The instincts they have developed are very offensive minded. It takes a special defensive minded coach to really change that such as Thibs. From what we know of Blatt he's an offensive genius in the mold of Mike D'Antoni and not a defensive guru of any kind.

We will see how it pans out, but I wish people would be a bit more tempered on expectations of Blatt. He's a first time NBA level coach. I say more pressure should be on Lebron/Love and far less on a rookie NBA coach.

Confusious
08-08-2014, 08:07 PM
Jimmy Butler will shut down Lebron he is the Lebron stopper and that would end any chance the Cavs have.
LOL. Yeah, okay there.