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View Full Version : Cleveland With Or Without Love Will Be Worse Than Expected



Clippersfan86
08-05-2014, 02:09 AM
I'm seeing a lot of talk about Love making this team title favorites, or without him them winning the east at least etc. People are getting caught up in the moment and not looking at things very logically. Let me tell you why this team will not live up to the hype.

1. Defense will be mediocre at best. Varejao and Lebron are the only good defenders and Varejao is good to miss a large part of the season every year pretty much. So Lebron will be the only good defender on the court at any given time most likely.

2. As mentioned above, the starting center Varejao has played 65, 25, 25, 31 games the last 4 seasons since his injury problems really started. Without him healthy this team is going to get slaughtered by the likes of Gasol/Noah or Nene/Gortat, the likely ECF foes.

3. Kyrie Irving is the same player, if not slightly declining his first 3 seasons. I have seen zero effort on defense especially and his attitude/leadership has been questioned more than once. I just don't see the "it" factor in this kid.

4. This team will have really average to bad depth after dealing all the pieces needed to get Love. With a few injury prone starters and not much depth to begin with PRIOR to trading Love, this will get exposed against Bulls/Wizards and maybe even Raptors/Hornets.


Maybe after a couple years of building chemistry and of guys developing they can become favorites, but it's not happening yet. People need to stop hyping this team. They will be awesome offensively once they mesh, but injuries/defense/depth can derail this team easier than people think.


PS. Before anyone says "Look at what Lebron did with Cleveland before, with less talent" think of this: The league is SIGNIFICANTLY more talented now top to bottom than it was then. So it takes more talent now to even contend.

FraziersKnicks
08-05-2014, 02:45 AM
I'm seeing a lot of talk about Love making this team title favorites, or without him them winning the east at least etc. People are getting caught up in the moment and not looking at things very logically. Let me tell you why this team will not live up to the hype.

1. Defense will be mediocre at best. Varejao and Lebron are the only good defenders and Varejao is good to miss a large part of the season every year pretty much. So Lebron will be the only good defender on the court at any given time most likely.

Who did Miami have who was better? Wade was a poor defender, Bosh is soft, Battier was still solid but at this point in his career he's nothing to what he used to be and Chalmers was solid but unspectacular.


2. As mentioned above, the starting center Varejao has played 65, 25, 25, 31 games the last 4 seasons since his injury problems really started. Without him healthy this team is going to get slaughtered by the likes of Gasol/Noah or Nene/Gortat, the likely ECF foes.

That Miami team had Bosh, Haslem and Birdman as it's big men and won 2 NBA titles and made 4 straight finals. As mentioned before, Bosh at center is as soft as you can get and Haslem and Birdman were just as injury prone/not as good as Varejao. Even if Varejao gets injured (which isn't a foregone conclusion like you make it out to be), Kevin Love/TT/whatever other big man they add before the start of the season/LeBron at the 4 will be a lot better than what Miami had, and once again that Miami team didn't struggle with anyone in the East.


3. Kyrie Irving is the same player, if not slightly declining his first 3 seasons. I have seen zero effort on defense especially and his attitude/leadership has been questioned more than once. I just don't see the "it" factor in this kid.

The kid is 22 and has carried that Cavs team. Who's the best player he's played with? Do you not think with LeBron and Love on his team the pressure will be off and he can relax and pick his spots without being the focal point of team defenses? A player who is 22 is not on the decline, teams have scouted him and because he's been on such a piss poor team, defenses have focused their attention on him.


4. This team will have really average to bad depth after dealing all the pieces needed to get Love. With a few injury prone starters and not much depth to begin with PRIOR to trading Love, this will get exposed against Bulls/Wizards and maybe even Raptors/Hornets.

They're basically given up Wiggins/Bennett/Jack for Love/LeBron… How have they gutted their team? This team will have far more depth than these past Miami teams.

sixer04fan
08-05-2014, 02:45 AM
I think they'll be instant favorites in the East. Chicago has a chance and I still think Wash is a tier below, even though I love their squad.

1) Cleveland was in the middle of the pack last year in scoring defense and in FG% against. They were actually somewhat respectable so it's not like Lebron is coming to a team that gave up 110ppg last year. Now you are adding Lebron to that. The D only gets better.

2) You're basing extreme assumptions on players who are currently healthy (correct me if I'm wrong with Varejao) getting significantly injured. Even still, swap out Varejao for Love in the front court, assuming your crystal ball for injuries is correct. Maybe the defense suffers, but in terms of W/L and how good the team is, are you really trying to convince us the team won't be better?

3. Playing with Lebron will do wonders for Kyrie. This is a big 3 match made in heaven. They made it work in Miami, a lot due to sheer dominant talent, even though those three weren't a perfect fit for each other. Kyrie-Lebron-Love has a chance to be even better. Or at least as good.

4. The depth should still be better than what Miami put out recently, and it was fine, they coasted to the finals. The CLE depth is fine IMO.

5. Yeah, I'm going here. Look at what CLE did with Lebron before. They won over 60 games. They got to the finals. The league is better now, but so is Lebron. And so is this Cavs team. By light years. Lebron's finals starting lineup with CLE was what - LBJ, Larry Hughes, Pavlovic, Ilgauskas, and Gooden? Are you kidding me? Give Lebron Love and Kyrie, and the difference between those teams is enormous.

PurpleJesus
08-05-2014, 02:49 AM
Some valid points you have.

I think adding a player like Lebron, and being on a winning team, makes everyone play harder, and with more intensity. It is easier to give it your all when playing for a winner, as opposed to a loser. Playing harder and more intense, increases defensive efficiency IMO.

There is also the affect of ring chasers that end up joining a team like Cleveland after it forms. And I think that will shore up some of the depth issues, if they trade the house for Love. For example, there is already talk of Ray Allen and Shawn Marion going to Cleveland.

Meth
08-05-2014, 02:52 AM
but David Blatt though

Clippersfan86
08-05-2014, 03:25 AM
Oh forgot an unproven coach (at the NBA level).

Clippersfan86
08-05-2014, 03:28 AM
Sixer match match in heaven big 3 if you don't care about D. Love/Irving are the worst defending stars in the league at their positions quite possibly. Bottom line is they have a lot of talent, but are the 4th best team at best, at least initially.

lincecum=future
08-05-2014, 03:51 AM
4th best team overall? Or in the east? Because you're on one if you think the Cavs with love are the fourth best team in the East.

Clippersfan86
08-05-2014, 03:53 AM
4th best team overall? Or in the east? Because you're on one if you think the Cavs with love are the fourth best team in the East.

Overall. Like last year top 3 teams will be in west. Although I do think Bulls/Wiz can challenge them in east, Cavs should be favs for east.

Iron24th
08-05-2014, 03:57 AM
They could be east favorites just because the east is a joke (minus paul george)

But they would get destroyed int the Finals by any top west team who gets in.

JLeBeau76
08-05-2014, 03:58 AM
I'm seeing a lot of talk about Love making this team title favorites, or without him them winning the east at least etc. People are getting caught up in the moment and not looking at things very logically. Let me tell you why this team will not live up to the hype.

1. Defense will be mediocre at best. Varejao and Lebron are the only good defenders and Varejao is good to miss a large part of the season every year pretty much. So Lebron will be the only good defender on the court at any given time most likely.

2. As mentioned above, the starting center Varejao has played 65, 25, 25, 31 games the last 4 seasons since his injury problems really started. Without him healthy this team is going to get slaughtered by the likes of Gasol/Noah or Nene/Gortat, the likely ECF foes.

3. Kyrie Irving is the same player, if not slightly declining his first 3 seasons. I have seen zero effort on defense especially and his attitude/leadership has been questioned more than once. I just don't see the "it" factor in this kid.

4. This team will have really average to bad depth after dealing all the pieces needed to get Love. With a few injury prone starters and not much depth to begin with PRIOR to trading Love, this will get exposed against Bulls/Wizards and maybe even Raptors/Hornets.


Maybe after a couple years of building chemistry and of guys developing they can become favorites, but it's not happening yet. People need to stop hyping this team. They will be awesome offensively once they mesh, but injuries/defense/depth can derail this team easier than people think.


PS. Before anyone says "Look at what Lebron did with Cleveland before, with less talent" think of this: The league is SIGNIFICANTLY more talented now top to bottom than it was then. So it takes more talent now to even contend.

Just a few quick rebuttals.

1. Dellavedova is a quality defender. Waiters improved alot last season. If they get Marion on top of that, will be even better.

2. I don't like Cavs depth here, real weak spot. Can still be improved by start of season.

3. Mike Brown and the pressure of being the face of the franchise hurt him last season, plus constant double teams. shouldn't be an issue this year.

4. Delly, TT, Miller, Jones...possibly Marion and Allen. No, center is only real issue in depth.

As for coach, which was mentioned elsewhere. Yeah, all Blatt has done ia take marginally talented teams and won championships over far superior squads in multiple leagues.

Yep, he sucks.

Goose17
08-05-2014, 04:24 AM
Oh forgot an unproven coach (at the NBA level).

lol, anyone who has seen any of Blatts teams and the offense they run already know that the guy is going to be a top 10 coach in the league this year. Unproven my ***.

shep33
08-05-2014, 04:26 AM
They could be east favorites just because the east is a joke (minus paul george)

But they would get destroyed int the Finals by any top west team who gets in.

Yup. The east is still a joke. I like what Washington did, but sadly the Pacers got a heck of a lot worse

Chicago is probably the only team that can challenge them, and that's if Rose is back to his MVP form.

But your right, I don't see how they can compete with the Spurs, OKC, Clips, or even Dallas (they're my dark horse team next year)

Goose17
08-05-2014, 04:27 AM
I do think you need to give any team that has underwent a major change or two at least one season to gel properly before they can truly contend, regardless of talent.

Cleveland will be in the conference finals. Beyond that, there's too many variables to predict accurately what could transpire.

Clippersfan86
08-05-2014, 05:02 AM
lol, anyone who has seen any of Blatts teams and the offense they run already know that the guy is going to be a top 10 coach in the league this year. Unproven my ***.

With Love/Irving/Lebron offense won't be an issue, it's defense I pointed out. I even said their offense has elite potential obviously. I still think the NBA is a completely different ballgame than Euro. He needs to prove it in this league that he can get the same unselfish play out of NBA players. Players in Euroleague typically are a lot more unselfish and team oriented. To suggest he's going to be a great coach right out of the gate is a pretty big assumption.

Clippersfan86
08-05-2014, 05:04 AM
Yup. The east is still a joke. I like what Washington did, but sadly the Pacers got a heck of a lot worse

Chicago is probably the only team that can challenge them, and that's if Rose is back to his MVP form.

But your right, I don't see how they can compete with the Spurs, OKC, Clips, or even Dallas (they're my dark horse team next year)

Wizards have arguably the best top to bottom roster in the entire NBA (or at least top 5) if they can just stay healthy. So you can't count them out. Especially after they looked like a decent shot to get to the ECF last year and now guys like Wall/Beal should take another leap and they added a couple pieces (although lost Ariza).

Goose17
08-05-2014, 05:19 AM
To suggest he's going to be a great coach right out of the gate is a pretty big assumption.

I stand by it.

shep33
08-05-2014, 05:29 AM
Wizards have arguably the best top to bottom roster in the entire NBA (or at least top 5) if they can just stay healthy. So you can't count them out. Especially after they looked like a decent shot to get to the ECF last year and now guys like Wall/Beal should take another leap and they added a couple pieces (although lost Ariza).

Yeah, I like their squad. Like you mentioned though, I worry about health. PP is getting up there in age, Beal had a stress fracture last year (hope it's not a continuing issue), and Nene often misses chunks of a season.

The Hornets look like a solid squad out East. Still a couple years away from making some noise, but I like what MJ has done.

I wish the West can donate the Pelicans to the East. They'd probably be a 3-4 seed out there.

Clippersfan86
08-05-2014, 05:30 AM
I stand by it.

Which is cool, just don't call me out for disagreeing. When I say "unproven" it's in the literal sense. In the NBA he hasn't proven jack ****. We've all seen great heroes from Europe come over and stink it up (players). I have no reason to believe a great coach in Europe is going to come over here and be a great or top tier coach, at least right out of the gate.

Euroleague vs NBA is so different it would be extremely unlikely for this to occur. No matter how brilliant of an offensive mind he is, he's going to have to adjust. If you want an example of this look at Mike D'Antoni. Wasn't he known as a Euroleague legend coach? He had his moments in the NBA but was run out of his last two jobs and pissed on by most fans. He too is known as one of the great offensive minds the NBA has seen. Problem is there is a hell of a lot more to the game than offense. Not to mention as I said earlier, it takes a special group of unselfish NBA players to run those ball movement heavy, unselfish offensive systems.

Lebron/Love/Irving are all willing passers, so I see zero issues for them offensively. As I mentioned 3-4 times now I see the issues being on defense as well as injury issues and lack of depth.

JLeBeau76
08-05-2014, 05:51 AM
Which is cool, just don't call me out for disagreeing. When I say "unproven" it's in the literal sense. In the NBA he hasn't proven jack ****. We've all seen great heroes from Europe come over and stink it up (players). I have no reason to believe a great coach in Europe is going to come over here and be a great or top tier coach, at least right out of the gate.

Euroleague vs NBA is so different it would be extremely unlikely for this to occur. No matter how brilliant of an offensive mind he is, he's going to have to adjust. If you want an example of this look at Mike D'Antoni. Wasn't he known as a Euroleague legend coach? He had his moments in the NBA but was run out of his last two jobs and pissed on by most fans. He too is known as one of the great offensive minds the NBA has seen. Problem is there is a hell of a lot more to the game than offense. Not to mention as I said earlier, it takes a special group of unselfish NBA players to run those ball movement heavy, unselfish offensive systems.

Lebron/Love/Irving are all willing passers, so I see zero issues for them offensively. As I mentioned 3-4 times now I see the issues being on defense as well as injury issues and lack of depth.

The only real adjustments Blatt will have to make is to the rules differences and substitutions. As far as his system he is known to adjust it to his personel. Also, in many regards, he is leaps ahead of traditional NBA coaches as the league has just recently started to trend towards stretch 4's while Blatt has been using them effectively for years.

While there is bound to be bumps along the road, I get on my hands and knees and thabk whomever is listening that Mike Brown is not going to be leading this team!

slashsnake
08-05-2014, 06:05 AM
I'm seeing a lot of talk about Love making this team title favorites, or without him them winning the east at least etc. People are getting caught up in the moment and not looking at things very logically. Let me tell you why this team will not live up to the hype.

1. Defense will be mediocre at best. Varejao and Lebron are the only good defenders and Varejao is good to miss a large part of the season every year pretty much. So Lebron will be the only good defender on the court at any given time most likely.

2. As mentioned above, the starting center Varejao has played 65, 25, 25, 31 games the last 4 seasons since his injury problems really started. Without him healthy this team is going to get slaughtered by the likes of Gasol/Noah or Nene/Gortat, the likely ECF foes.

3. Kyrie Irving is the same player, if not slightly declining his first 3 seasons. I have seen zero effort on defense especially and his attitude/leadership has been questioned more than once. I just don't see the "it" factor in this kid.

4. This team will have really average to bad depth after dealing all the pieces needed to get Love. With a few injury prone starters and not much depth to begin with PRIOR to trading Love, this will get exposed against Bulls/Wizards and maybe even Raptors/Hornets.


Maybe after a couple years of building chemistry and of guys developing they can become favorites, but it's not happening yet. People need to stop hyping this team. They will be awesome offensively once they mesh, but injuries/defense/depth can derail this team easier than people think.


PS. Before anyone says "Look at what Lebron did with Cleveland before, with less talent" think of this: The league is SIGNIFICANTLY more talented now top to bottom than it was then. So it takes more talent now to even contend.

Interesting points...

I am not sure the Eastern Conference is "SIGNIFICANTLY more talented" than it was when Lebron was winning 60+ games with the Cavs.

Now, I would say on:

1. That is true. I think Irving is ok, Tristan isn't too bad, but you are right on Bron and Varejao being their only great defenders. But that was kind of the same back when Cleveland had one of the best D's in the league with Lebron before.

2. I think Love, Varejao, Thompson and possibly Haywood form a much better set of bigs than Bosh, Bird, Joel Anthony and co in Miami, and they did alright. Nene being healthy at the end of the season is as big of an if as Varejao. I think the Bulls front line will be tough for sure.

3. Agree, but a 21-6 guy who can create his own shot and that for others is still a very nice talent. He hasn't really improved in his first three years, but he set the bar high as a rookie. Part of me wonders how he will be with a contender level team.

4. I think some depth may come. They have a shot at getting some guys for cheap who want to win a ring and that worked out ok in Miami. Last year not so much, but I'd take Waiters getting the 6th most minutes over Norris Cole. One thing I believe that has helped the Heat is most teams really just go to 7-8 man rotations in the playoffs. My Nuggets always looked great in the regular season when they got all those guys for Melo and other seasons, 11 deep with guys who all could probably be an ok starter somewhere. Then playoffs started, and the opponents rotation went to 7-8 guys, who overall were better than the Nuggets top 7 or 8, and that depth lost its value.

Figure Bron, Irving, Love, Dellavadova (can't spell that), Thompson, Waiters, Varejao, possibly Haywood (or a nice tradeable asset with his unguaranteed contract), John Lucas, James Jones... that gives you 10 guys who play 15 or so or more a game. Not bad, but with the elite players you aren't going to get this great bench too very often.

I'd call them East co-favorites with the Bulls which a lot depends on how/if Rose comes back. Finals, probably not, but if you get there anything can happen.

Goose17
08-05-2014, 06:09 AM
The only real adjustments Blatt will have to make is to the rules differences and substitutions. As far as his system he is known to adjust it to his personel. Also, in many regards, he is leaps ahead of traditional NBA coaches as the league has just recently started to trend towards stretch 4's while Blatt has been using them effectively for years.


This^

I don't see how Blatt can fail with the talent on the roster and the willingness of his star player to get everyone involved. Blatt has always gotten the best out of his players, he makes scrubs look like solid role players and makes role players look like bonafide starters. I'm assuming he's going to run a variation of the princeton offense again, the biggest issue with that is Irving, he'll need to become a more willing passer, but the idea of winning should be enough to make him do so.


Blatt has been offered jobs by numerous NBA teams over the last few years, he's turned them all down, waiting for a head coaching job. People in that world know what he's capable of.




My only issue with Blatt is he supports the terrorist state of Israel. But you know, that's to be expected, Israeli heritage and all.

GeekInThePink
08-05-2014, 07:31 AM
This^

I don't see how Blatt can fail with the talent on the roster and the willingness of his star player to get everyone involved. Blatt has always gotten the best out of his players, he makes scrubs look like solid role players and makes role players look like bonafide starters. I'm assuming he's going to run a variation of the princeton offense again, the biggest issue with that is Irving, he'll need to become a more willing passer, but the idea of winning should be enough to make him do so.


Blatt has been offered jobs by numerous NBA teams over the last few years, he's turned them all down, waiting for a head coaching job. People in that world know what he's capable of.


Surprisingly, I couldn't agree more. The Princeton offense (or the modified version he uses) are going to be ideal for Kevin Love and LeBron.

JasonJohnHorn
08-05-2014, 08:23 AM
Things are wide open in the east, so it is hard to tell who will succeed.

Your defensive concerns are spot on. Anderson-V has been unhealthy and you can't fairly expect a big contribution from him, regardless of how good he is. But the Cavs do have some room to move in terms of trades. For a team willing to part with a defensive center, they could ship out Anderson-V to match contracts, and include Tristan. And if they get Ray Allen, they could perhaps afford to sweeten the pot with Waiters.

As for Irving, I don't think he is the right fit. I think a past-first point guard with a great 3-point shot would be ideal. Part of me would like to see Rondo there, though he doesn't have the shooting touch.


I don't expect the Cavs are done making moves, and there are some decent players out there who could sign for the vet-min.

monzternipz12
08-05-2014, 08:27 AM
The cavs have lebron James.

Close thread.

koreancabbage
08-05-2014, 08:35 AM
As individuals, they have some soft defenders.

However, if Blatt inserts a defensive mindset into each player, all they have to do is watch each other's back and rotate accordingly. Miami didn't have solid one on one defenders but they put a concerted effort into each defensive scheme.

They are PROBABLY better defensively with the current team now, than with the acquisition of Love. Wiggins would be more focused on the defensive end and you can sling him around on rotations due to his athleticism - they lose that once they get Love.

If i were Cleveland, I would expect the same results because (Love vs no Love) in the end, you're opening up more holes with the Love acquisition than the ones you have patched through the players Cleveland currently has.

prodigy
08-05-2014, 08:45 AM
I think they'll be instant favorites in the East. Chicago has a chance and I still think Wash is a tier below, even though I love their squad.

1) Cleveland was in the middle of the pack last year in scoring defense and in FG% against. They were actually somewhat respectable so it's not like Lebron is coming to a team that gave up 110ppg last year. Now you are adding Lebron to that. The D only gets better.

2) You're basing extreme assumptions on players who are currently healthy (correct me if I'm wrong with Varejao) getting significantly injured. Even still, swap out Varejao for Love in the front court, assuming your crystal ball for injuries is correct. Maybe the defense suffers, but in terms of W/L and how good the team is, are you really trying to convince us the team won't be better?

3. Playing with Lebron will do wonders for Kyrie. This is a big 3 match made in heaven. They made it work in Miami, a lot due to sheer dominant talent, even though those three weren't a perfect fit for each other. Kyrie-Lebron-Love has a chance to be even better. Or at least as good.

4. The depth should still be better than what Miami put out recently, and it was fine, they coasted to the finals. The CLE depth is fine IMO.

5. Yeah, I'm going here. Look at what CLE did with Lebron before. They won over 60 games. They got to the finals. The league is better now, but so is Lebron. And so is this Cavs team. By light years. Lebron's finals starting lineup with CLE was what - LBJ, Larry Hughes, Pavlovic, Ilgauskas, and Gooden? Are you kidding me? Give Lebron Love and Kyrie, and the difference between those teams is enormous.

This

Lebron will also make everyone else better defenders by pushing them and leading.

prodigy
08-05-2014, 08:50 AM
PS. Before anyone says "Look at what Lebron did with Cleveland before, with less talent" think of this: The league is SIGNIFICANTLY more talented now top to bottom than it was then. So it takes more talent now to even contend.

That's not true at all.

Yanks All Day
08-05-2014, 08:52 AM
Once this assumed Love/Wiggins/Bennet trade is done, Cleveland's roster looks like:

PG: Kyrie/ John Lucas III
SG: Dion Waiters/ Ray Allen (assuming he signs)/ Delladova
SF: LeBron/ Miller/ Marion (gotta believe if Cleveland is pursuing him, he signs)
PF: Love/ Thompson
C: Varejao/ Hayward

Outside of backup PG, which is almost useless considering LeBron can just handle that, that team is pretty well-rounded. Defense will get better by virtue of LeBron, Miller, Allen, and Marion coming in and Varejao being healthy. The younger guys in Kyrie, Waiters, and Thompson all have the ability to defend, so that's all you need for this purpose. Defense is all about effort, if you have the talent and ability, and LeBron James and the vets will make sure the effort is there.

Wouldn't worry about Kyrie's leadership. He's 22 and has played on the worst team in the league for his entire career. Can't blame him for being discouraged. What you do see is that he's a great shooter, can get to the lane at will, and definitely has a knack for playing big in the 4th quarter against good teams. He doesn't have to be the leader anymore. That's LeBron's job. Kyrie, Waiters, and/or Thompson can grow into the leader role now.

In terms of actual East challengers to this Cavs team? Right now? Chicago. That's it. Having LeBron with this team guarantees you at least a 50 win season. There won't be any coasting like in Miami because this team needs to play hard and gel. Pacers lost George and Stephenson, so their wing game is as thin as it gets. The Knicks and Nets are in a state of mediocre flux. Raptors and Wizards are young, but they haven't shown any proof that they're championship ready yet, so I'm not giving them any kind of edge over a LeBron-led team. The Bulls have the talent and depth to give any team a game, as long as Rose is healthy. They're the only legit threat to Cleveland right now. Maybe Miami if Wade can have a re-birth, but that's also unlikely.

koreancabbage
08-05-2014, 08:52 AM
This

Lebron will also make everyone else better defenders by pushing them and leading.

no - thats gonna be on their head coach.

beasted86
08-05-2014, 09:05 AM
CF86 is saying the things that should be obvious to a lot of people. The team has major defensive concerns above all others. Varejao and LeBron are the only ones who play defense, and Varejao is injured a lot. Haywood as backup C after a year off.

Love and Thompson playing that 5 slot is just asking to be a bottom 10 defense again. Irving has never played defense in his life, even dating back to his Duke days it was a concern. Unwilling to stay in his stance and fight over punishing screens. Often gets caught ball watching as his man makes plays off the ball.

Cavs have more work to do once the trade goes through. Banking on the notion that these guys will suddenly all simultaneously buy in after being negative defenders their whole careers is asking to much.

Luckily time is on their side though and there are a number of good defensive free agents available.

nickdymez
08-05-2014, 09:07 AM
Cavs will be good the year after next. By good I mean the favorites to win in the east. The Heat will be better than the cavs next year. LeBron isn't God, he's a human. The team needs a chance to build chemistry.

mightybosstone
08-05-2014, 09:35 AM
I don't buy this one bit. First off, the very premise of this thread is ridiculous because OP assumes he knows what we're all expecting or that we all think Cleveland is the favorite to win the championship. I certainly never said that, and I haven't seen too many other posters suggest that either. However, I would certainly pick them as the favorite to win the East, as they'll be by far the most talented team on paper. That's not an overestimation. That's common sense.

Now, could another team in the East knock off the Cavs? Sure. It's happened more times than I can count where a veteran team with more experience knocked off a younger, newer squad. But I just don't buy that this team is nearly as inexperienced as OP or others are making them seem. Nor do I buy that they'll be as bad defensively as Varejao is easily a better defender than any single player on the Heat.

OP also brings up injury concerns, which are impossible to predict. But assuming Cleveland can get 60+ games out of Irving, Varejao, Love and Lebron each, why shouldn't we believe that this team could easily match Miami's win total last year of 54 wins?

JLeBeau76
08-05-2014, 09:41 AM
Things are wide open in the east, so it is hard to tell who will succeed.

Your defensive concerns are spot on. Anderson-V has been unhealthy and you can't fairly expect a big contribution from him, regardless of how good he is. But the Cavs do have some room to move in terms of trades. For a team willing to part with a defensive center, they could ship out Anderson-V to match contracts, and include Tristan. And if they get Ray Allen, they could perhaps afford to sweeten the pot with Waiters.

As for Irving, I don't think he is the right fit. I think a past-first point guard with a great 3-point shot would be ideal. Part of me would like to see Rondo there, though he doesn't have the shooting touch.


I don't expect the Cavs are done making moves, and there are some decent players out there who could sign for the vet-min.

Smh.

Ok, Andy isn't going anywhere, he's one of the reasons LeBron came back. Same with Tristan.

Next, to even sugest that the Cavs would ship Waiters out if they get Allen is absurd. Allen would likely only be a one year guy who would be playing limited minutes.

I know this isn't the best samples but has anyone seen KI play in the all-star games? He is pass first when he has guys he trusts to pass it to. With Bron and Love, you can expect he will be a willing passer, especially in drive and kick situations.

Also, for some other posters, the Cavs HAVE a good backup pg..
.DELLAVEDOVA. He showed last season he's pass first, can hit the three and is a beast on defense.

One last thing, and don't quote me on this, but didn't Irving miss the.majority of his one season at Duke? CanT really have issues stemming back to.his college days when he barely played.

Ok, rant over...lol

beasted86
08-05-2014, 09:48 AM
Smh.

Ok, Andy isn't going anywhere, he's one of the reasons LeBron came back. Same with Tristan.

Next, to even sugest that the Cavs would ship Waiters out if they get Allen is absurd. Allen would likely only be a one year guy who would be playing limited minutes.

I know this isn't the best samples but has anyone seen KI play in the all-star games? He is pass first when he has guys he trusts to pass it to. With Bron and Love, you can expect he will be a willing passer, especially in drive and kick situations.

Also, for some other posters, the Cavs HAVE a good backup pg..
.DELLAVEDOVA. He showed last season he's pass first, can hit the three and is a beast on defense.

One last thing, and don't quote me on this, but didn't Irving miss the.majority of his one season at Duke? CanT really have issues stemming back to.his college days when he barely played.

Ok, rant over...lol
Dellavedova a beast on defense? Rofl... drtg of 111!

And, yes, Irving was scouted in college or else he wouldn't have gone number 1. His defensive effort was always a concern even if his physical tools seem good enough to be better there.

mightybosstone
08-05-2014, 09:52 AM
Cavs will be good the year after next. By good I mean the favorites to win in the east. The Heat will be better than the cavs next year. LeBron isn't God, he's a human. The team needs a chance to build chemistry.

Oh, so talented teams need time to build chemistry? Is that why the Celtics won a title the year Allen and KG came to Boston or that the Lakers made the championship that same year after acquiring Gasol midway through the season? Is that why Miami made the Finals their first year together in 2010 and were favorites in the Finals?

I believe that chemistry matters in basketball, but talent often trumps chemistry and talent certainly trumps chemistry when you're talking about the weak Eastern Conference. Cleveland could very well get beaten in the playoffs, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be the favorites and that certainly doesn't mean their lack of chemistry will put them at a significant disadvantage.

ManRam
08-05-2014, 09:54 AM
I think you made a few valid points, but are just getting a little carried away. I don't think they'll be automatic Finals contenders, but there gonna be REALLY REALLY good.


1. Defense will be mediocre at best. Varejao and Lebron are the only good defenders and Varejao is good to miss a large part of the season every year pretty much. So Lebron will be the only good defender on the court at any given time most likely.

Fair. Varejao's health (we'll get to that) is hugely important. When healthy he's a top-10 defensive center. However, I think Love's defensive woes are a bit overblown. He's not Tim Duncan, but at the same time he's not Amare. His DRPM was pretty solid last year. His defensive rebounding is otherworldly and that makes a difference. Moreover, actually playing alongside a decent defensive center would make a difference. Pekovic is a pretty poor rim protector. He's not great, but he's not David Lee, Amare Stoudemire or the likes either.


2. As mentioned above, the starting center Varejao has played 65, 25, 25, 31 games the last 4 seasons since his injury problems really started. Without him healthy this team is going to get slaughtered by the likes of Gasol/Noah or Nene/Gortat, the likely ECF foes.

Definitely a huge concern. They'd need him. But until he goes down I'm not going to use that against them just yet.


3. Kyrie Irving is the same player, if not slightly declining his first 3 seasons. I have seen zero effort on defense especially and his attitude/leadership has been questioned more than once. I just don't see the "it" factor in this kid.

He's been about the same player, I agree. I'd imagine playing with LeBron will help. He's a good player, there's no doubt about it. As a third option there's nothing worth criticizing him over.


4. This team will have really average to bad depth after dealing all the pieces needed to get Love. With a few injury prone starters and not much depth to begin with PRIOR to trading Love, this will get exposed against Bulls/Wizards and maybe even Raptors/Hornets.

To be determined. Ray? Marion? But giving up Wiggins and Bennett for Love isn't going to totally decimate their depth. Thompson bumps to the back up spot which actually helps with that, and they'd just need to find a guard. Easier said than done, for sure, but they can get creative with LeBron and lean on Miller/Jones more than Delladova/Lucas.

Irving/Dellavedova/Lucs
Waiters/Delladova
James/Miller/Jones
Love/Thompson
Varejao/Haywood

There's decent depth there. The backup guard spots are the key, for sure.


Maybe after a couple years of building chemistry and of guys developing they can become favorites, but it's not happening yet. People need to stop hyping this team. They will be awesome offensively once they mesh, but injuries/defense/depth can derail this team easier than people think.

LeBron himself said it would take time. This shouldn't be controversial. However, they still will be REALLY REALLY good, and I think you're trying to dismiss that.


PS. Before anyone says "Look at what Lebron did with Cleveland before, with less talent" think of this: The league is SIGNIFICANTLY more talented now top to bottom than it was then. So it takes more talent now to even contend.

I disagree with this. If we're talking about the East then Boston, Orlando, Detroit, and even Atlanta were probably better from ~2007-2010 than probably any team in the East right now outside of Chicago IF things in Chicago go well. There were some really good teams those days.

IndyRealist
08-05-2014, 10:11 AM
When they land Love, any remaining free agents will flock to Cleveland on minimum contracts. I wouldn't worry too much about their chances, they're not getting past the Spurs regardless.

prodigy
08-05-2014, 11:36 AM
This

Lebron will also make everyone else better defenders by pushing them and leading.

no - thats gonna be on their head coach.

More so lebron. Lebron coached the last 4 years in miami

prodigy
08-05-2014, 11:37 AM
Once this assumed Love/Wiggins/Bennet trade is done, Cleveland's roster looks like:

PG: Kyrie/ John Lucas III
SG: Dion Waiters/ Ray Allen (assuming he signs)/ Delladova
SF: LeBron/ Miller/ Marion (gotta believe if Cleveland is pursuing him, he signs)
PF: Love/ Thompson
C: Varejao/ Hayward

Outside of backup PG, which is almost useless considering LeBron can just handle that, that team is pretty well-rounded. Defense will get better by virtue of LeBron, Miller, Allen, and Marion coming in and Varejao being healthy. The younger guys in Kyrie, Waiters, and Thompson all have the ability to defend, so that's all you need for this purpose. Defense is all about effort, if you have the talent and ability, and LeBron James and the vets will make sure the effort is there.

Wouldn't worry about Kyrie's leadership. He's 22 and has played on the worst team in the league for his entire career. Can't blame him for being discouraged. What you do see is that he's a great shooter, can get to the lane at will, and definitely has a knack for playing big in the 4th quarter against good teams. He doesn't have to be the leader anymore. That's LeBron's job. Kyrie, Waiters, and/or Thompson can grow into the leader role now.

In terms of actual East challengers to this Cavs team? Right now? Chicago. That's it. Having LeBron with this team guarantees you at least a 50 win season. There won't be any coasting like in Miami because this team needs to play hard and gel. Pacers lost George and Stephenson, so their wing game is as thin as it gets. The Knicks and Nets are in a state of mediocre flux. Raptors and Wizards are young, but they haven't shown any proof that they're championship ready yet, so I'm not giving them any kind of edge over a LeBron-led team. The Bulls have the talent and depth to give any team a game, as long as Rose is healthy. They're the only legit threat to Cleveland right now. Maybe Miami if Wade can have a re-birth, but that's also unlikely.

Della is a pg not SG, so he's the backup and a solid one too.

prodigy
08-05-2014, 11:42 AM
Smh.

Ok, Andy isn't going anywhere, he's one of the reasons LeBron came back. Same with Tristan.

Next, to even sugest that the Cavs would ship Waiters out if they get Allen is absurd. Allen would likely only be a one year guy who would be playing limited minutes.

I know this isn't the best samples but has anyone seen KI play in the all-star games? He is pass first when he has guys he trusts to pass it to. With Bron and Love, you can expect he will be a willing passer, especially in drive and kick situations.

Also, for some other posters, the Cavs HAVE a good backup pg..
.DELLAVEDOVA. He showed last season he's pass first, can hit the three and is a beast on defense.

One last thing, and don't quote me on this, but didn't Irving miss the.majority of his one season at Duke? CanT really have issues stemming back to.his college days when he barely played.

Ok, rant over...lol
Dellavedova a beast on defense? Rofl... drtg of 111!

And, yes, Irving was scouted in college or else he wouldn't have gone number 1. His defensive effort was always a concern even if his physical tools seem good enough to be better there.

Della is a very good defender, beal from the wizards said della's the toughest he played against. He's a smaller AV, just hustle and in your face, really annoying type.

ManRam
08-05-2014, 11:43 AM
Della is a pg not SG, so he's the backup and a solid one too.

I mean, you're more qualified than me, but most sites list him as a 2. Coming out of college he was definitely considered a guy who could play both, and it looks like he did just that last year. He played alongside Jack a lot last year, seemingly thus as a SG, right? Either way, I think he can play both...and I agree that he is a solid back up. Underrated defender too.

FraziersKnicks
08-05-2014, 12:17 PM
Cavs will be good the year after next. By good I mean the favorites to win in the east. The Heat will be better than the cavs next year. LeBron isn't God, he's a human. The team needs a chance to build chemistry.

This is screaming out for a sig bet.

Chronz
08-05-2014, 12:27 PM
Maybe, but they should win the East if they get Love and thats a good enough start considering the youth on this squad. How far they ultimately get depends on what you think about Love, we've never seen him or Kyrie play in any big games so its hard to tell but based on regular season talent, they should beast. Its just a matter of fit.

nickdymez
08-05-2014, 12:31 PM
This is screaming out for a sig bet.
Lol. Let's do it!

Clippersfan86
08-05-2014, 12:38 PM
I suppose this thread is a bit pessimistic. I just cringe when I see Vegas give Cleveland the best or 2nd best title odds. Mightyboss I wasn't saying posters here said Cavs would win it all necessarily. More polls I've seen, Vegas odds etc. Houston Rockets on paper were similarly loaded last year with two superstars and a great 3rd piece and look how that turned out? Like this Cleveland team that was a very offensive minded roster. Sure, in the west it's another story. Just wish people would understand more often that teams don't get thrown together and win overnight. Miami and Boston were filled with vets, not young guys.

If they go out and get Allen/Marion for minimum they definitely look nicer though. I still think there are 5 teams that can eliminate the Cavs if the Cavs don't add multiple good pieces. Spurs/Thunder/Clippers/Bulls/Wizards. Then I also think the Hornets could surprise them and push them to 6-7.

http://www.vegasinsider.com/nba/odds/futures/

Stinkyoutsider
08-05-2014, 01:11 PM
I'm not sure what to expect from the Cavs if they make the Love deal?

I don't think they'll be quite that bad on the defensive side of the ball but the thing I think about the most is mentality. I think Irving could be a good ball distributor but he shouldn't take a back seat to Lebron. He needs to continue to score at the rate he did since he's been in the league. Lebron is a great floor leader but I think Irving needs to let Lebron know that this is still his team.

I know that Wiggins is raw and needs time to develop but I'm not 100% sold on trading him for Love at this point. Love is the first option for the Wolves offensively but I see him moving to a third option on the Cavs, similar to what happened to Bosh in Miami. He's a great rebounder but I'm not sold on trading Wiggins for a guy who's going to be a 3rd option jump shooter and offensive rebounder on the team.

Clippersfan86
08-05-2014, 01:15 PM
Stinkyoutsider made me think of something else. Kyrie is a great shooter but much of his game is based on having the ball in his hands and breaking teams down off the dribble. Not sure he has the instincts to play off the ball so much, like he will need to with Lebron, who's obviously incredibly ball dominant. So Irving's already stale (so far) growth may be hindered further. If it is and Kyrie continues to not try on defense, it won't be good.

Oefarmy2005
08-05-2014, 02:13 PM
I'm not sure what to expect from the Cavs if they make the Love deal?

I don't think they'll be quite that bad on the defensive side of the ball but the thing I think about the most is mentality. I think Irving could be a good ball distributor but he shouldn't take a back seat to Lebron. He needs to continue to score at the rate he did since he's been in the league. Lebron is a great floor leader but I think Irving needs to let Lebron know that this is still his team.

I know that Wiggins is raw and needs time to develop but I'm not 100% sold on trading him for Love at this point. Love is the first option for the Wolves offensively but I see him moving to a third option on the Cavs, similar to what happened to Bosh in Miami. He's a great rebounder but I'm not sold on trading Wiggins for a guy who's going to be a 3rd option jump shooter and offensive rebounder on the team.

My honest question for you, does Miami win a single championship without Bosh? The answer is, "not likely." So what if Love is the 3rd option, isn't it a great luxury to have Love as your 3rd option?

Oefarmy2005
08-05-2014, 02:15 PM
Stinkyoutsider made me think of something else. Kyrie is a great shooter but much of his game is based on having the ball in his hands and breaking teams down off the dribble. Not sure he has the instincts to play off the ball so much, like he will need to with Lebron, who's obviously incredibly ball dominant. So Irving's already stale (so far) growth may be hindered further. If it is and Kyrie continues to not try on defense, it won't be good.
Which brings me to a point that Love would actually be great with Lebron because he can play off the ball and maybe you move Kyrie later for a stud player elsewhere. In any case, Lebron is getting to the age where if he wants to prolong his career, he may actually be the one that has to learn to play better off the ball.

FraziersKnicks
08-05-2014, 02:24 PM
The Cavs have to deal with the Bulls in the East who in my mind are even more of a question make since Rose has been out of the game for 2 years now. By default the Cavs should have some of the best odds to win the championship because they'll only have to get past ONE team from the West. The Cavs are basically guaranteed the ECF at least and will quite comfortably make the finals in my opinion when they acquire Love and add Allen and probably Marion.

Also if Wade and LeBron worked so well together at the start (when Wade was still healthy and a ball dominant superstar) with Wade having a broken outside shot, then why will Kyrie and LeBron not work? Kyrie is less ball dominant than Wade was and is a much better shooter. LeBron is also even more mature and tuned into the game. His basketball IQ is matched only by CP3 and TD in my opinion. They will have absolutely no problem working it out.

D-Leethal
08-05-2014, 02:46 PM
Cavs will win 60 games and have a top 12 defense to go along with a top 3 offense.

Sadds The Gr8
08-05-2014, 02:57 PM
Overall. Like last year top 3 teams will be in west. Although I do think Bulls/Wiz can challenge them in east, Cavs should be favs for east.
Lol they'd own the wizards. I swear Washington is suddenly the most overrated team in the league.

IversonIsKrazy
08-05-2014, 02:57 PM
The East is just not that great, which is why everyone thinks Cavs are one of the favs from East. As of right now I'd say if Rose comes back to himself, I got Bulls over current CAvs, if Cavs get Love, its a toss-up I'd say. I'd say their depth is decent if they keep TT as back-up big along with CJ Miles, Mike Miller. Their defense will be the main issue, but I don't see this team beating the Spurs, OKC or LAC.

Arch Stanton
08-05-2014, 03:07 PM
The East is just not that great, which is why everyone thinks Cavs are one of the favs from East. As of right now I'd say if Rose comes back to himself, I got Bulls over current CAvs, if Cavs get Love, its a toss-up I'd say. I'd say their depth is decent if they keep TT as back-up big along with CJ Miles, Mike Miller. Their defense will be the main issue, but I don't see this team beating the Spurs, OKC or LAC.

CJ Miles plays fo the Pacers now.

Chaotic98
08-05-2014, 03:09 PM
I just cringe when I see Vegas give Cleveland the best or 2nd best title odds.

That's because it will be an easier trip to make it to the finals from the east than the west. Also when you take into account what LBJ had and has to work with in Cleveland, he is quite better off. Wade's and Bosh are past their prime, more so the former than the latter.

Miami with LBJ became a much more offensively and defensively efficient team. Their FG% as a team and individually increased. Their defensive awareness and positioning also improved.

The same will happen for Irving and Love, who are coming into their prime and will face less pressure on both of them to lead. I see this Cleveland becoming a slower tempo team, which will help them immensely on defense. I don't see them all shooting as much next year as they did this year. In terms of FGA Love had 18.5 (5th), LBJ 17.6 (8th), Irving 17.4 (9th), Waiters 14.2 (35th). That's 68 shots a game from 4 guys. The Wolves has a league high 87.5 FGA per game, the Cavs at 8th with 84.8. Miami was last 76.5 FGA, but the only team to have a FGM-FGA% of 50% tops in the league.

With Waiters no longer a second option, or Irving and Love as first options each game, they will be much more efficient, which helps their defensive transitioning and positioning greatly. Their defense will be in the 10-14, with a top 3 offensive rating.

Riodagoat
08-05-2014, 03:21 PM
Funny because many people have been saying similar stuff about the Clippers for the past 3 years but they have yet to sniff the WCF.

VikesTwinsWolve
08-05-2014, 03:56 PM
This thread is laughable! Clipperfans86 takes it personal when were not talking about blake griffen or the Clippers! ha

bucketss
08-05-2014, 04:10 PM
I'm not sure what to expect from the Cavs if they make the Love deal?

I don't think they'll be quite that bad on the defensive side of the ball but the thing I think about the most is mentality. I think Irving could be a good ball distributor but he shouldn't take a back seat to Lebron. He needs to continue to score at the rate he did since he's been in the league. Lebron is a great floor leader but I think Irving needs to let Lebron know that this is still his team.

I know that Wiggins is raw and needs time to develop but I'm not 100% sold on trading him for Love at this point. Love is the first option for the Wolves offensively but I see him moving to a third option on the Cavs, similar to what happened to Bosh in Miami. He's a great rebounder but I'm not sold on trading Wiggins for a guy who's going to be a 3rd option jump shooter and offensive rebounder on the team.

no.

this is lebrons team, this is lebrons city, and lebrons state. this isn't the same situation in miami where wade goes "this is my house", irving better recognize who lebron is.

Killerjug
08-05-2014, 04:10 PM
Lol they'd own the wizards. I swear Washington is suddenly the most overrated team in the league.

agreed

numba1CHANGsta
08-05-2014, 04:23 PM
It doesn't matter, the Bulls are a better team than the Cavs

Rose>Irving
Pau+Noah>Love+Verajao
Bulls coaching>Cavs coaching

The only way the Cavs make it to the Finals is if there's injuries involved with their opposing teams such as George with the Pacers which makes them a non contender this upcoming season

FraziersKnicks
08-05-2014, 04:35 PM
It doesn't matter, the Bulls are a better team than the Cavs

Rose>Irving
Pau+Noah>Love+Verajao
Bulls coaching>Cavs coaching

The only way the Cavs make it to the Finals is if there's injuries involved with their opposing teams such as George with the Pacers which makes them a non contender this upcoming season

I love the way you left out the best player in the world :laugh2:

Considering Rose hasn't played more than 11 games in the last two years, I'm taking Kyrie.

Kyrie > Rose
Waiters < Butler (Waiters is much better offensively, Butler much better defensively)
LeBron >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dunleavy
Love >>> Gasol
Varejao <<< Noah

Lakers fans are so funny

sixers247
08-05-2014, 04:47 PM
This thread is laughable! Clipperfans86 takes it personal when were not talking about blake griffen or the Clippers! ha

This is 100% correct. If it is not a clippers love fest he cries. I am suprised he didn;t start a thread since the Clippers worked out Bynum and Oden. If they sign one he will talk like they are a prime Shaq O'neal. Unfortunately the whole NBA forum is full of clowns now. Hard to read.

ChI_ShIzzLe
08-05-2014, 04:48 PM
I love the way you left out the best player in the world :laugh2:

Considering Rose hasn't played more than 11 games in the last two years, I'm taking Kyrie.

Kyrie > Rose
Waiters < Butler (Waiters is much better offensively, Butler much better defensively)
LeBron >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dunleavy
Love >>> Gasol
Varejao <<< Noah

Lakers fans are so funny
So Taj Gibson, McDermott, Mirotic and Brooks won't be factors right? Those 4 will **** on anyone Cleveland throws off the bench.

slyone_nyc
08-05-2014, 04:49 PM
i am not a Cavs fan, nor do i root for Lebron, but i think they will win the championship this upcoming season. i personally think Lebron on 85% of the teams in the league would win the championship. they have 1 team to beat in the east (Chi) on in the west (SAS). beating the spurs will be a tall task with all those young players, but if they manage to make it that far, anything is possible. Kyrie & Waiters will benefit tremendously from Lebron, as well as thompson. F the Cavs btw.

todu82
08-05-2014, 04:58 PM
I agree, they're still missing something on that team. Still think they win 50+ games but they shouldn't be considered title favourites yet.

FlashBolt
08-05-2014, 05:01 PM
David Blatt is the greatest American coach in Euro-League. He was highly recruited by NBA teams for years. He won at every level in Euro-League spanning decades and for different teams. He's not a no name scrub who came nowhere.

FraziersKnicks
08-05-2014, 05:05 PM
So Taj Gibson, McDermott, Mirotic and Brooks won't be factors right? Those 4 will **** on anyone Cleveland throws off the bench.

Well two of them are players who have never played a minute in the NBA and another is an undersized inefficient journey man.

Taj is a fantastic player but TT isn't far away from him.

Taj Gibson: 13 PPG, 6.8 RPG, 1.4 BPG, 47.9 FG%, 16 PER, .110 WS/48
Tristan Thompson: 11.7 PPG, 9.2 RPG, 0.4 BPG 47.7 FG%, 14.9 PER, .106 WS/48

Taj is the better defender and TT is the better rebounder. Thompson is also 6 years younger and has much more potential.

The Bulls have the better bench but starters are a hell of a lot more important than bench players and Cavs starters >>> Bulls starters.

Game_Over
08-05-2014, 05:08 PM
I don't see how, I'm not a LeBron fan but the guy pretty much single handedly took Miami to the finals. The East still sucks so I would expect them to at least make it to the Eastern finals.

prodigy
08-05-2014, 05:09 PM
Della is a pg not SG, so he's the backup and a solid one too.

I mean, you're more qualified than me, but most sites list him as a 2. Coming out of college he was definitely considered a guy who could play both, and it looks like he did just that last year. He played alongside Jack a lot last year, seemingly thus as a SG, right? Either way, I think he can play both...and I agree that he is a solid back up. Underrated defender too.

He can play both but def a PG,

FlashBolt
08-05-2014, 05:15 PM
Well two of them are players who have never played a minute in the NBA and another is an undersized inefficient journey man.

Taj is a fantastic player but TT isn't far away from him.

Taj Gibson: 13 PPG, 6.8 RPG, 1.4 BPG, 47.9 FG%, 16 PER, .110 WS/48
Tristan Thompson: 11.7 PPG, 9.2 RPG, 0.4 BPG 47.7 FG%, 14.9 PER, .106 WS/48

Taj is the better defender and TT is the better rebounder. Thompson is also 6 years younger and has much more potential.

The Bulls have the better bench but starters are a hell of a lot more important than bench players and Cavs starters >>> Bulls starters.

Also have to put a pause on Cleveland's bench. Shawn Marion, Ray Allen, and more are still interested in Cavs. A bench of Marion, Thompson, Allen, Miller, and James Jones is nothing to scoff at.

prodigy
08-05-2014, 05:17 PM
The Cavs have to deal with the Bulls in the East who in my mind are even more of a question make since Rose has been out of the game for 2 years now. By default the Cavs should have some of the best odds to win the championship because they'll only have to get past ONE team from the West. The Cavs are basically guaranteed the ECF at least and will quite comfortably make the finals in my opinion when they acquire Love and add Allen and probably Marion.

Also if Wade and LeBron worked so well together at the start (when Wade was still healthy and a ball dominant superstar) with Wade having a broken outside shot, then why will Kyrie and LeBron not work? Kyrie is less ball dominant than Wade was and is a much better shooter. LeBron is also even more mature and tuned into the game. His basketball IQ is matched only by CP3 and TD in my opinion. They will have absolutely no problem working it out.

This.

I agree it will be tough for cavs to beat the west champs, but Im shocked at people saying bulls and wizards can beat the cavs. If rose is MVP type player then maybe they have a shot but let's be real now. Lebron dragged wades corpse to the finals, love, Irving, waiters, TT av etc.... common 'now

prodigy
08-05-2014, 05:20 PM
It doesn't matter, the Bulls are a better team than the Cavs

Rose>Irving
Pau+Noah>Love+Verajao
Bulls coaching>Cavs coaching

The only way the Cavs make it to the Finals is if there's injuries involved with their opposing teams such as George with the Pacers which makes them a non contender this upcoming season

You forgot someone... lebron > everyone #truth

Also waiters > butler

And I'd take cavs bench too

Love is better then both gasol and Noah, and if AV is healthy him and Noah are very alike. Wow I just destroyed ur whole argument. Sorry

Jamiecballer
08-05-2014, 05:24 PM
I agree grasshopper

prodigy
08-05-2014, 05:27 PM
I love the way you left out the best player in the world :laugh2:

Considering Rose hasn't played more than 11 games in the last two years, I'm taking Kyrie.

Kyrie > Rose
Waiters < Butler (Waiters is much better offensively, Butler much better defensively)
LeBron >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dunleavy
Love >>> Gasol
Varejao <<< Noah

Lakers fans are so funny
So Taj Gibson, McDermott, Mirotic and Brooks won't be factors right? Those 4 will **** on anyone Cleveland throws off the bench.

McDermott and mirotic are the rooks right? How do u know what they gonna do? Cavs have young but proven guys on the bench.

numba1CHANGsta
08-05-2014, 05:30 PM
I love the way you left out the best player in the world :laugh2:

Considering Rose hasn't played more than 11 games in the last two years, I'm taking Kyrie.

Kyrie > Rose
Waiters < Butler (Waiters is much better offensively, Butler much better defensively)
LeBron >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dunleavy
Love >>> Gasol
Varejao <<< Noah

Lakers fans are so funny

First off I left off LeBron because there was no point to mention him being that he is the best against any SF in the East. Secondly, when healthy Rose is a much better player than Irving at least at this point in their careers. And finally, you're missing the big picture here, Love has no chance to attack the basket with Pau and Noah there, so Pau would own Love in the paint, making him having to shoot more from the outside, and the Cavs won't win if they don't attack the basket.

BTW LeBron looks skinny af now, so expect less in the paint attacks from him.

FlashBolt
08-05-2014, 05:40 PM
First off I left off LeBron because there was no point to mention him being that he is the best against any SF in the East. Secondly, when healthy Rose is a much better player than Irving at least at this point in their careers. And finally, you're missing the big picture here, Love has no chance to attack the basket with Pau and Noah there, so Pau would own Love in the paint, making him having to shoot more from the outside, and the Cavs won't win if they don't attack the basket.

BTW LeBron looks skinny af now, so expect less in the paint attacks from him.

1) You left him off but he makes more of a difference than just subtracting him from a LeBron vs Butler matchup.. Without LeBron, of course this team gets slaughtered. With James out there, the matchup of Kyrie vs Rose changes. It's not all about 1v1 position wise.

2) When Rose is healthy.. Sorry, but you're assuming he's 100% and you're also assuming he will be better than someone who actually played and put up some big numbers. Remember how awful Rose was when he first made his comeback? Yeah... Hardly worth mentioning.

3) What the hell are you talking about that Love would have no chance? Marc Gasol/Randolph is a much better frontcourt than Noah/Gasol and Kevin Love averaged 17/11 on 50% shooting against Marc/Randolph. The idea that Pau would own Love is laughable.. Oh, you'll make Love shoot more from the outside.. That's fine, he only averages 6.6 3PA on 38% shooting. I'm sure he wouldn't mind shooting. And as for the attacking the basket junk, you do realize that Cleveland will probably have shooters consisting of Love, Kyrie, James Jones, Ray Allen, and Mike Miller, right? Those are 5 of some of the best shooters in NBA. Attacking the basket comes much easier when you have 4 former three point shooting champions and IDK, someone by the name of Mike Miller - who shot 46% from 3's?

Idk about LeBron being skinny but there's still 80 days left till NBA begins. He's probably testing it out and preparing for longevity or maybe he's going for a different diet. Way too early to assume anything. Remember how fat Kobe was during the offseason?

FraziersKnicks
08-05-2014, 06:02 PM
First off I left off LeBron because there was no point to mention him being that he is the best against any SF in the East. Secondly, when healthy Rose is a much better player than Irving at least at this point in their careers. And finally, you're missing the big picture here, Love has no chance to attack the basket with Pau and Noah there, so Pau would own Love in the paint, making him having to shoot more from the outside, and the Cavs won't win if they don't attack the basket.

BTW LeBron looks skinny af now, so expect less in the paint attacks from him.

The game plan is to make Kevin Love a shooter? Do you watch basketball? Do you even look at numbers?

I'm gonna leave it at that...

Monta is beast
08-05-2014, 06:02 PM
kyrie irving
dion waiters
lebron james
kevin love

any team with lebron on it is going to be a top 10 defensive team, love and james rebound extremly well for their positions. what depth did he have in miami? wade, bosh and maybe allen. now he has waiters, thompson, varejo etc. your kidding urself if you dont think their most likely not coming out of the east.

beasted86
08-05-2014, 07:49 PM
kyrie irving
dion waiters
lebron james
kevin love

any team with lebron on it is going to be a top 10 defensive team, love and james rebound extremly well for their positions. what depth did he have in miami? wade, bosh and maybe allen. now he has waiters, thompson, varejo etc. your kidding urself if you dont think their most likely not coming out of the east.
You made a typo here, might want to try again.

SILVER SEAVER
08-05-2014, 08:05 PM
Wiggins would've been awesome to watch playing defense alongside LeBron but he's as good as gone if they land Love. They wouldn't be a very good defensive team unless they're going to turn into an eastern conference version of those D'Antoni Suns teams and outscore everyone. But like those teams in Phoenix did you can only go so far in the playoffs playing hardly a speck of D. So unless LeBron ;lost that weight so he'd be in better physical shape to take 3 for 4 guys they won't go far even in the east. This isn't Boston's Big 3 or Miami's version. There is a lot of sacrifice and learning that needs to happen to have guys like Love and Kyrie gel well with LeBron. Egos put to the side and defense to the forefront.

prodigy
08-05-2014, 08:13 PM
Let's be real here, love, Irving and waiters have played most of their careers on bad teams, so what's really the motive to play defense? None really. But they are now on a contending team with lebron. You betcha they will try much harder.

NBA_Starter
08-05-2014, 09:54 PM
Overall. Like last year top 3 teams will be in west. Although I do think Bulls/Wiz can challenge them in east, Cavs should be favs for east.

Now that is a possibility.

LA_Raiders
08-05-2014, 11:35 PM
Miami will beat them.

Clippersfan86
08-06-2014, 12:00 AM
This thread is laughable! Clipperfans86 takes it personal when were not talking about blake griffen or the Clippers! ha

This is so petty and random. I didn't even bring up the Clippers so why in the world is any non Clippers thread by me taken as some sort of pro Clipper agenda? How about maybe I'm just annoyed in general with all the Cleveland hype and it has nothing to do with the Clippers? Not everything has some big agenda, some things are exactly as they are presented.

Also the people in here saying Lebron carried the Heat are being incredibly disrespectful to the help he had and revising history to an absurd level. For the first two finals appearances (plus second title) Wade and Bosh were still legit superstars and helped tremendously. Battier was also huge and went berserk in the finals from 3.

For the 2nd championship Ray Allen singlehandedly stopped a 4-2 Spurs series win and Mike Miller hit huge shots time and time again in the playoffs. Even with Wade declining, Bosh still came up big, especially on defense. Was Lebron the most dominant player? No sh**. Did he carry a bunch of scrubs? Hell fu**ing no. In what planet does one player carry a team to 27 straight wins (NBA record) and 4 straight finals appearances without great help? I'll give you a clue... it's never happened.

FlashBolt
08-06-2014, 12:19 AM
This is so petty and random. I didn't even bring up the Clippers so why in the world is any non Clippers thread by me taken as some sort of pro Clipper agenda? How about maybe I'm just annoyed in general with all the Cleveland hype and it has nothing to do with the Clippers? Not everything has some big agenda, some things are exactly as they are presented.

Also the people in here saying Lebron carried the Heat are being incredibly disrespectful to the help he had and revising history to an absurd level. For the first two finals appearances (plus second title) Wade and Bosh were still legit superstars and helped tremendously. Battier was also huge and went berserk in the finals from 3.

For the 2nd championship Ray Allen singlehandedly stopped a 4-2 Spurs series win and Mike Miller hit huge shots time and time again in the playoffs. Even with Wade declining, Bosh still came up big, especially on defense. Was Lebron the most dominant player? No sh**. Did he carry a bunch of scrubs? Hell fu**ing no. In what planet does one player carry a team to 27 straight wins (NBA record) and 4 straight finals appearances without great help? I'll give you a clue... it's never happened.

Jesus, you are the worst! You just admitted you are annoyed by the Cleveland hype!

1) LeBron did carry the Heat more-so than not.. Don't take it literally. No one carries a team 100%, not Jordan, not Hakeem, no one. But the degree of what he did more than warrants the label of "carrying."
2) I'll give you the first two Finals appearances but did you forget about Bosh being injured vs Pacers and how LeBron ultimately stepped up and got Wade going and also carried them against Boston? Or are you just pretending you didn't watch it?
3) Ray single-handily stopped a 4-2 Spurs win? What the hell are you talking about? They were down like 10 and James went into God-like mode scoring 14 points in the fourth quarter and only put up 32/10/11. Ray was 2-7 and 0-2 before he hit that three pointer. Do you even know what single-handily means? That's like saying Robert Horry single-handily beat Kings, single-handily beat Spurs, single-handily beat Portland, and single-handily beat Pistons. Allen made a tough clutch shot. He didn't single-handily beat anything..
4) Bosh came up big.. LOL. He's paid $20 million to play ELITE, not BIG. $10 million players play BIG, near max or max contract players play elite and do it well. Just cause he comes up big with a defensive play or hits that corner three, doesn't mean he did his job. If he did his job, Miami wouldn't need to resort to these last second plays to win games.
5) You seem to take the word carry much too literally. Of course he didn't carry Miami and he had no help. But you can't tell me last season he had much help. Wade was out 1/3rd of the season, Bosh was a weak "center" grabbing only 6 boards and resorting to the three point line thus posing no inside presence, Mike Miller was amnestied, and Beasley/Oden were rarely played but were used up to fill up Miller's role. You can't tell me watching the Finals that James had help. It was really him and Rashard Lewis against Spurs. What happened when James had a cramp when they were up 5 in game 1? Spurs blew Miami out 20 points?

Clippersfan86
08-06-2014, 12:31 AM
Jesus, you are the worst! You just admitted you are annoyed by the Cleveland hype!

1) LeBron did carry the Heat more-so than not.. Don't take it literally. No one carries a team 100%, not Jordan, not Hakeem, no one. But the degree of what he did more than warrants the label of "carrying."
2) I'll give you the first two Finals appearances but did you forget about Bosh being injured vs Pacers and how LeBron ultimately stepped up and got Wade going and also carried them against Boston? Or are you just pretending you didn't watch it?
3) Ray single-handily stopped a 4-2 Spurs win? What the hell are you talking about? They were down like 10 and James went into God-like mode scoring 14 points in the fourth quarter and only put up 32/10/11. Ray was 2-7 and 0-2 before he hit that three pointer. Do you even know what single-handily means? That's like saying Robert Horry single-handily beat Kings, single-handily beat Spurs, single-handily beat Portland, and single-handily beat Pistons. Allen made a tough clutch shot. He didn't single-handily beat anything..
4) Bosh came up big.. LOL. He's paid $20 million to play ELITE, not BIG. $10 million players play BIG, near max or max contract players play elite and do it well. Just cause he comes up big with a defensive play or hits that corner three, doesn't mean he did his job. If he did his job, Miami wouldn't need to resort to these last second plays to win games.
5) You seem to take the word carry much too literally. Of course he didn't carry Miami and he had no help. But you can't tell me last season he had much help. Wade was out 1/3rd of the season, Bosh was a weak "center" grabbing only 6 boards and resorting to the three point line thus posing no inside presence, Mike Miller was amnestied, and Beasley/Oden were rarely played but were used up to fill up Miller's role. You can't tell me watching the Finals that James had help. It was really him and Rashard Lewis against Spurs. What happened when James had a cramp when they were up 5 in game 1? Spurs blew Miami out 20 points?

How is your first line relevant? I said I was annoyed, what's the surprise? I'm contesting that it's somehow Clippers related, that's all.

1. Lebron will forever be known as having one of the most loaded squads ever over those 4 finals appearances, especially the first 3. So to revise this to Lebron "carrying" a bunch of lesser players is so stupid it's just plain pathetic.

2. I didn't forget Bosh tore his Pec but I also remember him killing it when healthy and Wade was still a superstar at that point. Not to mention the other help Lebron had.

3. Ray Allen saved the series with that 3, yes. Doesn't mean Lebron wasn't the best player that game.. just means if Ray Allen didn't hit the most cold blooded shot of his career, Spurs win that game and the series.

4. Chris Bosh is still a legit superstar IMO. Just because he took a backseat, doesn't mean he's incapable of dominating. He's come up countless times for that Heat team in recent years of the playoffs. He's the same player on offense with a lesser role and has become a much better defender.


5. This season he had the least help for sure, which is why Lebron experienced the WORST slaughter in NBA history in terms of margin by 15 ppg. This year it was clear that the Heat weren't the most talented team in the NBA. The three years prior they were the most talented top to bottom team in the NBA according to most and I can't really disagree. They were pretty stacked. Let's not revise it.

Clippersfan86
08-06-2014, 12:45 AM
The double standards regarding the Heat in Lebron's time crack me up. Clear title favorites, considered stacked by everybody all along.. yet after Lebron leaves it's turned into "Lebron carried those teams". What a damn joke. No matter how literal I take "carrying" it wasn't even in the same UNIVERSE as "carrying".

Carrying is what he did in 07 when he took a bunch of washed up scrubs and senior citizens to the finals. I mean Larry Hughes and Drew Gooden as your 2nd and 3rd best players arguably? Lol. Far cry from Bosh/Wade/Miller/Allen/Birdman/Battier/Haslem etc.

MTar786
08-06-2014, 02:30 AM
all i know is that these cavs are going to be an incredible 3 point shooting team, an incredible slashing team and an incredible rebounding team. They will also be good in the post and great at causing mismatches (love and lebron) they will also get opponents into a lot of foul trouble. this is all a great formula to win it all. all they need to hope for is at least average defense (which is very possible).. and to have good chemistry and a healthy locker room.

I think it will be crucial if they can somehow get waiters to come off the bench and be somewhat of a spark plug. and have either ray allen start with limited start mins if he comes or if kevin martin comes in a trade. I think Waiters would produce better off the bench for them in maybe a ginobli role. Also i don't think he is a good compliment to a starting 5 that has love lebron kyrie and varajeo in it.

Goose17
08-06-2014, 06:55 AM
The double standards regarding the Heat in Lebron's time crack me up. Clear title favorites, considered stacked by everybody all along.. yet after Lebron leaves it's turned into "Lebron carried those teams". What a damn joke. No matter how literal I take "carrying" it wasn't even in the same UNIVERSE as "carrying".

Carrying is what he did in 07 when he took a bunch of washed up scrubs and senior citizens to the finals. I mean Larry Hughes and Drew Gooden as your 2nd and 3rd best players arguably? Lol. Far cry from Bosh/Wade/Miller/Allen/Birdman/Battier/Haslem etc.

How far would Miami have gotten without Lebron?

That's how you know if he was carrying them or not.^

prodigy
08-06-2014, 10:08 AM
The double standards regarding the Heat in Lebron's time crack me up. Clear title favorites, considered stacked by everybody all along.. yet after Lebron leaves it's turned into "Lebron carried those teams". What a damn joke. No matter how literal I take "carrying" it wasn't even in the same UNIVERSE as "carrying".

Carrying is what he did in 07 when he took a bunch of washed up scrubs and senior citizens to the finals. I mean Larry Hughes and Drew Gooden as your 2nd and 3rd best players arguably? Lol. Far cry from Bosh/Wade/Miller/Allen/Birdman/Battier/Haslem etc.

Check ur #5 bud you pretty much shut down ur first paragraph here lol.

I'm not sure what your point is, you just sound like someone who hates the cavs and lebron. Which is perfectly fine, its great really. But just write ''IMO'' after everything.

prodigy
08-06-2014, 10:15 AM
I think it will be crucial if they can somehow get waiters to come off the bench and be somewhat of a spark plug. and have either ray allen start with limited start mins if he comes or if kevin martin comes in a trade. I think Waiters would produce better off the bench for them in maybe a ginobli role. Also i don't think he is a good compliment to a starting 5 that has love lebron kyrie and varajeo in it.

I see what you mean, waiters would def bring a spark off the bench. Someone who can take over if the big three need a break. But I'm not against him starting either. Because he can drive very well and also improved his 3pt shot a lot. He can fit in any style.

Rockice_8
08-06-2014, 10:26 AM
You say they aren't contenders for a title yet you call them the favorites in the East? Seems like contenders to me.

Then you say Wall/Beal will make a jump? Why, because they are young? If anything Irving, Love, TT, Waiters, AV will be the ones making a jump, in efficiency that is. Lebron makes his players better

CLE is easily the best team in the east once this trade goes through. Can WAS or CHI play them tough, absolutely. CLE is still the favorites in the East and legit contenders for a ring as early as next season.

Heatcheck
08-06-2014, 10:43 AM
Who did Miami have who was better? Wade was a poor defender, Bosh is soft, Battier was still solid but at this point in his career he's nothing to what he used to be and Chalmers was solid but unspectacular.



That Miami team had Bosh, Haslem and Birdman as it's big men and won 2 NBA titles and made 4 straight finals. As mentioned before, Bosh at center is as soft as you can get and Haslem and Birdman were just as injury prone/not as good as Varejao. Even if Varejao gets injured (which isn't a foregone conclusion like you make it out to be), Kevin Love/TT/whatever other big man they add before the start of the season/LeBron at the 4 will be a lot better than what Miami had, and once again that Miami team didn't struggle with anyone in the East.



The kid is 22 and has carried that Cavs team. Who's the best player he's played with? Do you not think with LeBron and Love on his team the pressure will be off and he can relax and pick his spots without being the focal point of team defenses? A player who is 22 is not on the decline, teams have scouted him and because he's been on such a piss poor team, defenses have focused their attention on him.



They're basically given up Wiggins/Bennett/Jack for Love/LeBron… How have they gutted their team? This team will have far more depth than these past Miami teams.

Showed your ignorance right there. bosh is actually a very good defender especially on the pick and roll and wade when engaged is a very good wing defender. Battier was key in all these championships because he was an elite defender who can guard multiple positions, and id make the argument that the heat looked so bad this last finals because battier declined so quickly this year. and varejao has had two good seasons in his entire career, lets not make him out to be something he's not. and they don't have more depth than these past Miami teams, at least not the ones thet won a ring.

Heatcheck
08-06-2014, 10:45 AM
First off I left off LeBron because there was no point to mention him being that he is the best against any SF in the East. Secondly, when healthy Rose is a much better player than Irving at least at this point in their careers. And finally, you're missing the big picture here, Love has no chance to attack the basket with Pau and Noah there, so Pau would own Love in the paint, making him having to shoot more from the outside, and the Cavs won't win if they don't attack the basket.

BTW LeBron looks skinny af now, so expect less in the paint attacks from him.

Paus been awful on defense these last few years. he isn't owning anything.

Heatcheck
08-06-2014, 10:51 AM
all i know is that these cavs are going to be an incredible 3 point shooting team, an incredible slashing team and an incredible rebounding team. They will also be good in the post and great at causing mismatches (love and lebron) they will also get opponents into a lot of foul trouble. this is all a great formula to win it all. all they need to hope for is at least average defense (which is very possible).. and to have good chemistry and a healthy locker room.
I think it will be crucial if they can somehow get waiters to come off the bench and be somewhat of a spark plug. and have either ray allen start with limited start mins if he comes or if kevin martin comes in a trade. I think Waiters would produce better off the bench for them in maybe a ginobli role. Also i don't think he is a good compliment to a starting 5 that has love lebron kyrie and varajeo in it.

agreed. Kyries a ***** though, not a very good teammate, he'll have to fix that

Clippersfan86
08-06-2014, 12:37 PM
Check ur #5 bud you pretty much shut down ur first paragraph here lol.

I'm not sure what your point is, you just sound like someone who hates the cavs and lebron. Which is perfectly fine, its great really. But just write ''IMO'' after everything.

Actually it's your faulty comprehension that shut it down, not my writing. I was obviously referring to carrying the Heat teams (plural because it was multiple years/rosters) and even elaborated on this, which should have tipped you off. He absolutely DID carry the Cavs teams as I also explained. To suggest that he had to carry the most loaded squad in recent memory though is a complete joke and nothing but asinine.

Your post proves why it's a bad idea to make assumptions.

1. I've always been a big Lebron fan. I used to spend hours debating vs Kobe stans back when he was in Cleveland. His trip to Miami soured me a bit, but I was ECSTATIC when he returned to Cleveland.

2. What issue could I possibly have with the Cavs organization/team itself? They play in the east and have absolutely zero bearing on the Clippers unless it's the finals. So no, I don't hate the Cavs and Lebron.


PS. Why would I write IMO when none of what I said was presented as facts (numbers etc). It's obviously implied that most posts on a forum are opinion SMH.

Clippersfan86
08-06-2014, 12:50 PM
How far would Miami have gotten without Lebron?

That's how you know if he was carrying them or not.^

You don't think Bosh/Wade (remember Wade was still a superstar in 2 years at least, maybe 3) and a great supporting cast could of been an ECF team at least in the EAST? Or at the very least a contender? Again explain why people often used the words "stacked", "loaded" or "most talented" when referring to the Heat in the first 3 seasons together? Would they say this about a team where it was pretty much Lebron carrying mediocre players?

D-Leethal
08-06-2014, 01:50 PM
Its not about whose supporting cast is better without LeBron, its about whose supporting cast is better AROUND LeBron.

I think its clear the Cavs are the answer to #2. But I bet you Miami is the answer to #1.

Outside of role playing 3 point snipers, nobody on the Heat were able to "do what they do best" playing off LeBron. Wade can't play off him in the half court cause he can't shoot, he was never a good fit next to LeBron because he is a LeBron clone with his playing style and once he lost his first step he couldn't attack the weakside effectively off kick-outs. Bosh dumbed his game down to play off LeBron - he should be a mid range guy who goes to work off the dribble in face-up situations, instead he was a corner 3 point specialist.

Let those guys do what they do best again, they are a better team than Cavs without LeBron.

Cavs new squad seems to fit much better around LeBron though, Kyrie will be like Wade with his first step back to attack off the weakside, and Wade who can and will actually drill catch and shoot 3s. Love will be Miami-Bosh on steroids cause he can rebound and is a lights out shooter opposed to a guy who learned to shoot just to compliment LeBron.

Cavs cast around LeBron > Miami's cast around LeBron
Cavs cast without LeBron < Miami's cast without LeBron

prodigy
08-06-2014, 01:53 PM
The double standards regarding the Heat in Lebron's time crack me up. Clear title favorites, considered stacked by everybody all along.. yet after Lebron leaves it's turned into "Lebron carried those teams". What a damn joke. No matter how literal I take "carrying" it wasn't even in the same UNIVERSE as "carrying".

Carrying is what he did in 07 when he took a bunch of washed up scrubs and senior citizens to the finals. I mean Larry Hughes and Drew Gooden as your 2nd and 3rd best players arguably? Lol. Far cry from Bosh/Wade/Miller/Allen/Birdman/Battier/Haslem etc.

This past season if u watched the playoffs bron dragged that team to the finals. Even the playoffs with wade missing 28 games. Bosh was down right awful too.

Z was prob 3rd scoring option on that 2007 team. They were mainly built on defense with Hughes, snow, sasha etc... boobie Gibson won them a game vs pistons. Lebron was def the biggest reason they got there but defense would be a close 2nd. Completely outmatched in finals with a team that were great on offense and defense. But gooden and Gibson avg about the same amount of points combined as wade and bosh in the finals. Nuff said...

prodigy
08-06-2014, 02:01 PM
Its not about whose supporting cast is better without LeBron, its about whose supporting cast is better AROUND LeBron.

I think its clear the Cavs are the answer to #2. But I bet you Miami is the answer to #1.

Outside of role playing 3 point snipers, nobody on the Heat were able to "do what they do best" playing off LeBron. Wade can't play off him in the half court cause he can't shoot, he was never a good fit next to LeBron because he is a LeBron clone with his playing style and once he lost his first step he couldn't attack the weakside effectively off kick-outs. Bosh dumbed his game down to play off LeBron - he should be a mid range guy who goes to work off the dribble in face-up situations, instead he was a corner 3 point specialist.

Let those guys do what they do best again, they are a better team than Cavs without LeBron.

Cavs new squad seems to fit much better around LeBron though, Kyrie will be like Wade with his first step back to attack off the weakside, and Wade who can and will actually drill catch and shoot 3s. Love will be Miami-Bosh on steroids cause he can rebound and is a lights out shooter opposed to a guy who learned to shoot just to compliment LeBron.

Cavs cast around LeBron > Miami's cast around LeBron
Cavs cast without LeBron < Miami's cast without LeBron

Depends what wade you get would u agree? You have finals wade or even alittle better I might take cavs team. Healthy wade then def heat.

D-Leethal
08-06-2014, 02:24 PM
Depends what wade you get would u agree? You have finals wade or even alittle better I might take cavs team. Healthy wade then def heat.

I think Wade used LeBron as a crutch. I expect a different DWade this year - I understand most don't - but players have a funny way of "getting healthy" and not coasting when motivated. But LeBron was never good for Wade's game, all he did was take the ball out of his hands and Wade doesn't have the skillset conducive to playing off the ball. It worked well in the first few years because Wade was so damn good he made it work.

I think Wade returns to form this year and I think Bosh also goes back to a 22-8 type guy. I am by no means saying LeBron is at fault, its just the reality of his skillset and their skillsets and how they mesh.

mngopher35
08-06-2014, 02:46 PM
I think Wade used LeBron as a crutch. I expect a different DWade this year - I understand most don't - but players have a funny way of "getting healthy" and not coasting when motivated. But LeBron was never good for Wade's game, all he did was take the ball out of his hands and Wade doesn't have the skillset conducive to playing off the ball. It worked well in the first few years because Wade was so damn good he made it work.

I think Wade returns to form this year and I think Bosh also goes back to a 22-8 type guy. I am by no means saying LeBron is at fault, its just the reality of his skillset and their skillsets and how they mesh.

As a Lebron fan (don't care about either team) I agree. I think you sound a bit optimistic about next year but I think heat are 3rd in east and compete in playoffs (losing to chi or cle IF healthy) but skill set wise they didn't fit great and it was obvious. They had enough talent to make it work but it meant Wade and Bosh changing their games a bit (obviously you want ball with Lebron more often than not).

I think the floor spreading of Kyrie/Love fits better offensively next to Lebron (and Love doesn't need the ball at all times to be effective like many stars). Kyrie will have some adjustments but he can nail an open 3 unlike wade and can run things when Lebron sits (maybe a couple minutes less per game in regular seasons coming soon?).

They have issues defensively instead now but are young and have time to add a smaller piece or two moving forward (need another center to backup and insurance for andy v, wing defender who can shoot). Still a top tier team that is younger and fits better together even if they aren't quite as talented as the heat big 3.

D-Leethal
08-06-2014, 02:54 PM
As a Lebron fan (don't care about either team) I agree. I think you sound a bit optimistic about next year but I think heat are 3rd in east and compete in playoffs (losing to chi or cle IF healthy) but skill set wise they didn't fit great and it was obvious. They had enough talent to make it work but it meant Wade and Bosh changing their games a bit (obviously you want ball with Lebron more often than not).

I think the floor spreading of Kyrie/Love fits better offensively next to Lebron (and Love doesn't need the ball at all times to be effective like many stars). Kyrie will have some adjustments but he can nail an open 3 unlike wade and can run things when Lebron sits (maybe a couple minutes less per game in regular seasons coming soon?).

They have issues defensively instead now but are young and have time to add a smaller piece or two moving forward (need another center to backup and insurance for andy v, wing defender who can shoot). Still a top tier team that is younger and fits better together even if they aren't quite as talented as the heat big 3.

Exactly. My main point was, which team is better without LeBron doesn't mean they are the better squad with LeBron.

I do think Miami minus LeBron is better than Cleveland minus LeBron. I do think Miami still hits close to 50 wins and a division title. I don't think Cleveland hits 50 without LeBron.

mngopher35
08-06-2014, 03:02 PM
Exactly. My main point was, which team is better without LeBron doesn't mean they are the better squad with LeBron.

I do think Miami minus LeBron is better than Cleveland minus LeBron. I do think Miami still hits close to 50 wins and a division title. I don't think Cleveland hits 50 without LeBron.

Bold might be close, I think they could build one if they still get Love and then had maybe gotten like ariza/deng and an avg big in fa instead of Lebron (although Love supposedly didn't want to risk it so he may be skeptical like you). Otherwise agreed.

Tony_Starks
08-06-2014, 03:08 PM
Top 3 in the east with or without Love. Won't get out of the east with or without Love.

For long term they'd be much better with Wiggins but obviously he's not a part of Lebrons/Gilbert's win now pipedream.

FlashBolt
08-06-2014, 03:10 PM
How is your first line relevant? I said I was annoyed, what's the surprise? I'm contesting that it's somehow Clippers related, that's all.

1. Lebron will forever be known as having one of the most loaded squads ever over those 4 finals appearances, especially the first 3. So to revise this to Lebron "carrying" a bunch of lesser players is so stupid it's just plain pathetic.

2. I didn't forget Bosh tore his Pec but I also remember him killing it when healthy and Wade was still a superstar at that point. Not to mention the other help Lebron had.

3. Ray Allen saved the series with that 3, yes. Doesn't mean Lebron wasn't the best player that game.. just means if Ray Allen didn't hit the most cold blooded shot of his career, Spurs win that game and the series.

4. Chris Bosh is still a legit superstar IMO. Just because he took a backseat, doesn't mean he's incapable of dominating. He's come up countless times for that Heat team in recent years of the playoffs. He's the same player on offense with a lesser role and has become a much better defender.


5. This season he had the least help for sure, which is why Lebron experienced the WORST slaughter in NBA history in terms of margin by 15 ppg. This year it was clear that the Heat weren't the most talented team in the NBA. The three years prior they were the most talented top to bottom team in the NBA according to most and I can't really disagree. They were pretty stacked. Let's not revise it.

1) He doesn't have the most loaded squads. How about you prove it instead of just saying it like it's true.
2) LeBron had help but it wasn't a "loaded squad" compared to what Magic and some of those names had. Stop making it seem as if he had a prime Wade/Bosh. Those two guys certainly didn't play at their best. Wade was already showing signs of knee issues and I'm pretty sure you remember the Pacers game in which Miami were losing because Wade had his worst playoff game ever. Bosh averaged 14/8.. Stop acting as if he was KAJ or Shaq.
3) You know how many examples I can find of this exact argument? Stop pinning it down on one player and act as if a game winning shot has never been made by a lesser tier player. Ray Allen is known to hit these threes. He even said he practices the most unorthodox of shots just because he knows it would come back to him in the game. He's Ray Allen for Christ's sake. He can hit those threes and since everyone in Miami Heat was sucking that game, it shouldn't have came down to the last shot.
4) Now I know you're definitely making garbage up. Bosh is not the same player. In the years that Bosh has played for Miami, he has moved more and more towards the three point line. He's a center who DOESN'T want to play in the paint (very successful in doing so for Toronto). It's why he's always standing in the three point line and seems very ineffective at times. He's not as ferocious on the boards. Why the hell is he averaging 6-7 rebounds instead of 10-11? You can't teach rebounding.. It's all hustle and clearly he's not the same player.
5) But you still haven't proved how they were STACKED compared to every other team that has won. Let's also account for the fact that you completely ignore that in 2012-2013, they shouldn't have won as well. Remember James game winning shot vs Pacers? What, no credit there at all? Or what about game 7 vs Spurs in which he was forced to take perimeter shots and sunk them all in? You discredit him for everything and mention all the negatives; which is a clear sign that you have some sort of agenda towards him. You're right, Heat did get slaughtered - by a top 5 team of all time and with a roster that spanned 12 players coached by the amazing Popovich. Let's not forget what happened when James couldn't play the remaining minutes in game 1 and Heat got blown out after leading by 5 and an ending result of losing by 15. You wanna talk stacked? Let's talk about a prime Shaq with a prime LeBron. Let's talk about a prime Pippen with a 16 boards per game and All NBA Defensive First team in Pippen. Let's talk about KAJ, Worthy, and Scott. Do I even have to mention Parish, McHale, and Maxwell. The thing with Wade/Bosh (They were great players, no longer are they) is that their game doesn't fit LeBron as well as those other guys. LeBron has to be their leading rebounder, scorer, passer, and defender. Bosh/Wade aren't great defenders and certainly neither of them can be trusted to be a scorer day in and day out. Pippen was someone who could pass and defend better than Jordan. Rodman could rebound over Godzilla. They held the intangibles of the game down so Jordan wouldn't have to. Same with Shaq. Their game just meshes better with a 1st option than Wade/Bosh does. Can you imagine what a prime Shaq with a prime LeBron could do? I'd take that any day over a knee-shot Wade and a sissy who publicly stated that he hates posting up because it's too "physical".


Btw, very ironic that you find LeBron's team to be stacked while Clippers actually have the most STACKED squad in all of NBA outside maybe Spurs (they were taught to play but most of those players would suck in any other team). Yours truly, Blake/Chris Paul has constantly failed to live up to their hype. The endless second round defeats in which they should have dominated is pretty much an abomination. So unless you want to talk about stacked, let's not even begin.

mngopher35
08-06-2014, 03:15 PM
Top 3 in the east with or without Love. Won't get out of the east with or without Love.

For long term they'd be much better with Wiggins but obviously he's not a part of Lebrons/Gilbert's win now pipedream.

I disagree here. I think trading Wiggins for Love now is more likely to end in a championship (or multiple) moving forward. I don't see them winning with Wiggins for 3 years plus, but with Love it could be right away (maybe not favorites but right there). Their frontcourt would be seriously lacking, instead it looks good (need one more C) and they have an elite stretch 4 (great fit next to Lebron and in David Blatt's past offenses).

Clippersfan86
08-06-2014, 03:25 PM
Flashbolt I did prove they were stacked. They had two superstars, a perennial all star and great role players. If that's not "loaded" or "stacked" not sure what is. The bottom line is they had a lot of good players outside of Lebron. So don't act like Lebron had to "carry" anyone, because he sure as hell didn't. The only year where that was more the case was this last season and we all saw the end result of how that turned out. Complete and utter annihilation.

MELO 15
08-06-2014, 03:37 PM
I'm seeing a lot of talk about Love making this team title favorites, or without him them winning the east at least etc. People are getting caught up in the moment and not looking at things very logically. Let me tell you why this team will not live up to the hype.

1. Defense will be mediocre at best. Varejao and Lebron are the only good defenders and Varejao is good to miss a large part of the season every year pretty much. So Lebron will be the only good defender on the court at any given time most likely.

2. As mentioned above, the starting center Varejao has played 65, 25, 25, 31 games the last 4 seasons since his injury problems really started. Without him healthy this team is going to get slaughtered by the likes of Gasol/Noah or Nene/Gortat, the likely ECF foes.

3. Kyrie Irving is the same player, if not slightly declining his first 3 seasons. I have seen zero effort on defense especially and his attitude/leadership has been questioned more than once. I just don't see the "it" factor in this kid.

4. This team will have really average to bad depth after dealing all the pieces needed to get Love. With a few injury prone starters and not much depth to begin with PRIOR to trading Love, this will get exposed against Bulls/Wizards and maybe even Raptors/Hornets.


Maybe after a couple years of building chemistry and of guys developing they can become favorites, but it's not happening yet. People need to stop hyping this team. They will be awesome offensively once they mesh, but injuries/defense/depth can derail this team easier than people think.


PS. Before anyone says "Look at what Lebron did with Cleveland before, with less talent" think of this: The league is SIGNIFICANTLY more talented now top to bottom than it was then. So it takes more talent now to even contend.


I agree with most of everything that you are saying. I read somewhere on nba.com that among all the players in the NBA that allow there opponents as defenders to score at a high rate as well as a good FG%, out of 77 Kevin Love was at 74, and what surprised me was Varejao who was at 68, I havent looked up the number on Kyrie but Im pretty sure we all can agree that he is also a bad defender.

People in here seem to 4get that D. Wade was a great Defender when Lebron first got there, although he no longer is, if we were to compare the defensive unit of the heat to that of this teams defensive unit, the heat had not only the better supporting cast, but a better defensive unit.

And here is why I think that this move of getting K. Love will affect the CAVS in the long Run, because they will not be able to build by adding pieces, K. Love will get the Max from any team that has his rights, in this case the CAVS, and than you still have lebron who will have to get signed to the max, so know you have three players all making the max and no wiggle move to make for any other players. That is the differnce between the CAVS and the Heat situation, that Heat team had a supporting cast who can step in and help give the BIG Three some rest, But will the CAVS have. This is why although a sexy move for the heat a bad one because there will be no money to spend after signing Love, unless they plan on trading for him with the intensions of let him go in 2015, but than you would have traded a potential stud in wiggins.

Of course I can't read the future, but certain things are an obvious, two choices for the CAVS.

1. Mortgage the future
2.take the risk of getting Love and not really know how this thing will work out.

Tony_Starks
08-06-2014, 03:55 PM
I disagree here. I think trading Wiggins for Love now is more likely to end in a championship (or multiple) moving forward. I don't see them winning with Wiggins for 3 years plus, but with Love it could be right away (maybe not favorites but right there). Their frontcourt would be seriously lacking, instead it looks good (need one more C) and they have an elite stretch 4 (great fit next to Lebron and in David Blatt's past offenses).

I think you're overrating Love. At some point in the playoffs he'd have to face a Big that requires him to play defense which neutralizes his offensive value.

Wiggins has potential to be a stud offensively and already actually enjoys playing D. I'd take him over Love in a heartbeat, not to mention they would be financially flexible for years with Wiggins as opposed to paying another big 3.....

mngopher35
08-06-2014, 04:19 PM
I think you're overrating Love. At some point in the playoffs he'd have to face a Big that requires him to play defense which neutralizes his offensive value.

Wiggins has potential to be a stud offensively and already actually enjoys playing D. I'd take him over Love in a heartbeat, not to mention they would be financially flexible for years with Wiggins as opposed to paying another big 3.....

Even if his value is decreased a bit, he fits that team very well. He can Spread the floor for Lebron, can score in post, draws fouls, gets offensive boards. That is a lot for a secondary player to bring, even if his defense is just below average. Gasol, splitter/diaw, ibaka I am not so sure these guys will kill Love in the playoffs on o (maybe gasol but he could guard noah instead). He will be a huge threat offensively though and could draw those guys out of the lane.

Wiggins will take time to develop though and they have a decent chance to win now. That can be improved by getting Love and it still gives you two young budding stars in their mid/low 20's for the future. It makes more sense to get the better team over the next 7-8 years imo. Also Wiggins is always a risk where love is more proven in the NBA.

They won't have much financial flexibility next off season either way with wiggins, bennett, waiters, Miller, Jones, TT at 25ish mil, kyrie like 15?, Lebron 22, andy V needing a contract that would be about the cap. Likely have the MLE either way so why not also have Love and just need a big man defender with that mle.

JLeBeau76
08-06-2014, 05:49 PM
I agree with most of everything that you are saying. I read somewhere on nba.com that among all the players in the NBA that allow there opponents as defenders to score at a high rate as well as a good FG%, out of 77 Kevin Love was at 74, and what surprised me was Varejao who was at 68, I havent looked up the number on Kyrie but Im pretty sure we all can agree that he is also a bad defender.

People in here seem to 4get that D. Wade was a great Defender when Lebron first got there, although he no longer is, if we were to compare the defensive unit of the heat to that of this teams defensive unit, the heat had not only the better supporting cast, but a better defensive unit.

And here is why I think that this move of getting K. Love will affect the CAVS in the long Run, because they will not be able to build by adding pieces, K. Love will get the Max from any team that has his rights, in this case the CAVS, and than you still have lebron who will have to get signed to the max, so know you have three players all making the max and no wiggle move to make for any other players. That is the differnce between the CAVS and the Heat situation, that Heat team had a supporting cast who can step in and help give the BIG Three some rest, But will the CAVS have. This is why although a sexy move for the heat a bad one because there will be no money to spend after signing Love, unless they plan on trading for him with the intensions of let him go in 2015, but than you would have traded a potential stud in wiggins.

Of course I can't read the future, but certain things are an obvious, two choices for the CAVS.

1. Mortgage the future
2.take the risk of getting Love and not really know how this thing will work out.

Unlike the Heat who basically gave away years worth of picks in doing sign and trades for Bosh and James, the Cavs wont end up in that bad a shape after getting Love. So they will be able to infuse the team with young talent to go along with annual ring chasing vets.

Also unlike the Heat, the Cavs still have Delly, TT, and Waiters outside of their younger Big 3. Those guys represent young talent that has shown they can play and can be signed easier than FA.

Finally, no disrespect to Spoels, but I think Blatt is going to be 10x the coach he is in terms of utilizing his bench and maximizing talent.

Yeah, it'll be tight but when two of the potential big three are under 26 and are/could be top 5 players at their positions, that is a good problem to have.

3ballbomber
08-06-2014, 08:53 PM
Remember Miami Big 3 took a a while to mesh but i think what made Heat work w/ Lebron was the fact Bosh & especially Wade was willing to sacrifice themselves to accommodate Lebrons ball dominance. Heat are a very professional organization, w/ unselfish players & all that was a factor in not only making the Big 3 work but also in acquiring titles. Deng exposed how unprofessional and shabby Cleveland org are and Lebron most def will run that team once again, like he did in years past.........So Cavs better pray and hope that Lebron has become a much better & mature leader than he was before he. We know he is going to freelance on offense like he normally does and will have even more say on offense & defensive strategy. W/ Gilbert wanting to please Lebrons every wish and whims Lebron will run the show. I think this won't bode too well for the Cavs, especially if he clashed w/ the new coach....we know Lebron makes it clear when he butts heads w/ his coach. He is surrounded by young, impressionable players wich will learn from him. To me Lebron has never been a good leader, his far too selfish and disloyal to be one so it will be very interesting how he will do running the show in Cleveland w/out the back up solidarity, proven champion and leadership qualities of Wade and the high professionalism of the Miami Heat.

Lebron has alot of work and it's all going to fall on his shoulders at the end of the day. Fail and the whole world will be ready to pounce.....the only option is championship. The critics await and there are many!!

3ballbomber
08-06-2014, 08:59 PM
Finally, no disrespect to Spoels, but I think Blatt is going to be 10x the coach he is in terms of utilizing his bench and maximizing talent.

really? praising somebody yet to even coach his first nba game?!?!?!

JLeBeau76
08-06-2014, 09:43 PM
really? praising somebody yet to even coach his first nba game?!?!?!

There's more basketball in the world than the NBA. In fact, I would argue that its harder being a successful overseas coach than it is an NBA one because overseas, you don't lean on star players, you have to do it as a team and by understanding and utilizing every players strength and weaknesses.

Blatt excels at this, as shown by his multiple titles in multiple leagues over superior talent.

Part of the Heats failure in the finals last season was Spoels inability to adjust once two of his three big stars proved ineffective. I don't feel that if the same situation arises with Blatt, he will be as flummoxed as Spoels.

Clippersfan86
08-06-2014, 09:55 PM
David Blatt is supposedly an elite NBA coach before he coaches one game. Lebron is Da Gawd and carried the low talent rosters in Miami. Love is the best PF in the game easily. Irving is a superstar. Based on all of these things people are saying if the Cavs don't win multiple titles in the next few years, they deserve to be sh** on far more than Miami ever was and they likely WILL be. I don't believe Irving/Love will sacrifice and buy in the same way Wade/Bosh did. Both Irving and Love have been knocked for terrible leadership/attitude, not just by media but by their own fu**ing teammates!

FlashBolt
08-06-2014, 09:57 PM
Flashbolt I did prove they were stacked. They had two superstars, a perennial all star and great role players. If that's not "loaded" or "stacked" not sure what is. The bottom line is they had a lot of good players outside of Lebron. So don't act like Lebron had to "carry" anyone, because he sure as hell didn't. The only year where that was more the case was this last season and we all saw the end result of how that turned out. Complete and utter annihilation.

So you're telling me that Spurs squad last season wasn't the same Spurs squad we saw this season? Didn't you just say Allen saved James? How is it stacked if James needed saving? Way to prove your hypocritical statements. By stacked, we have to consider LAL with Kobe/Shaq and the rest of that crew type dominance. Didn't James lead Miami past Boston in game 6. In game 7 against Boston, they were down by like 8 in the fourth quarter. But the term stacked would mean "Complete domination" - which was hardly the case for Miami. Let's also look at them playing against Pacers being down 1-2 going to Indiana. James recorded a game for the ages putting up 40/18/9 and the next night, 30/10/8. They were also down heading to the fourth quarter in this game as well. Let's go back last year in which Pacers took them to 7 games. Remember that game winner in under 2 seconds that made Miami go 1-0? Yeah, without that game winner, Miami wouldn't have even made it to the NBA finals.. So let's stop the stacked crap. The NBA team who wins the championship will always seem stacked because they are just the better team. That's why Spurs won and Miami lost - they were the better team. Miami's roster was hardly stacked if you compare them with Magic, Jordan, and Bird's teammates.


I agree with most of everything that you are saying. I read somewhere on nba.com that among all the players in the NBA that allow there opponents as defenders to score at a high rate as well as a good FG%, out of 77 Kevin Love was at 74, and what surprised me was Varejao who was at 68, I havent looked up the number on Kyrie but Im pretty sure we all can agree that he is also a bad defender.

People in here seem to 4get that D. Wade was a great Defender when Lebron first got there, although he no longer is, if we were to compare the defensive unit of the heat to that of this teams defensive unit, the heat had not only the better supporting cast, but a better defensive unit.

And here is why I think that this move of getting K. Love will affect the CAVS in the long Run, because they will not be able to build by adding pieces, K. Love will get the Max from any team that has his rights, in this case the CAVS, and than you still have lebron who will have to get signed to the max, so know you have three players all making the max and no wiggle move to make for any other players. That is the differnce between the CAVS and the Heat situation, that Heat team had a supporting cast who can step in and help give the BIG Three some rest, But will the CAVS have. This is why although a sexy move for the heat a bad one because there will be no money to spend after signing Love, unless they plan on trading for him with the intensions of let him go in 2015, but than you would have traded a potential stud in wiggins.

Of course I can't read the future, but certain things are an obvious, two choices for the CAVS.

1. Mortgage the future
2.take the risk of getting Love and not really know how this thing will work out.

The worst defensive teams will always make a player look horrible defensively in terms of stats. This hardly says anything. It's why James wasn't voted for NBA First Defensive.

east fb knicks
08-06-2014, 10:01 PM
This.

I agree it will be tough for cavs to beat the west champs, but Im shocked at people saying bulls and wizards can beat the cavs. If rose is MVP type player then maybe they have a shot but let's be real now. Lebron dragged wades corpse to the finals, love, Irving, waiters, TT av etc.... common 'now

I take it your a cavs fan wade wasn't himself but he was far from a corpse and bosh is an all star lbj is the best player in the nba but ther is also a thing called defense and if love goes to the cavs their defense is going to suck

FlashBolt
08-06-2014, 10:04 PM
I think you're overrating Love. At some point in the playoffs he'd have to face a Big that requires him to play defense which neutralizes his offensive value.

Wiggins has potential to be a stud offensively and already actually enjoys playing D. I'd take him over Love in a heartbeat, not to mention they would be financially flexible for years with Wiggins as opposed to paying another big 3.....

At some point, Love does have to play D but if Miami could win with Bosh anchoring their front court, please don't tell me Love can't.


really? praising somebody yet to even coach his first nba game?!?!?!

Let's praise the coach who takes out Mario Chalmers in game 7 (bit too late) and inserts Michael Beasley (6 minutes total playoff time before being inserted in game 7). Spo is a horrible coach. I knew it the moment when he does interviews and on-court questions in which all he talks about is grinding and grinding. Real coaches are more basketball analytical while Spo is talking yoga or something. I mean, he doesn't play Beasley at all in the regular season. He saves up Oden for the entire regular season only to not use him at all. He doesn't even play James Jones despite the fact that he's their best three point shooter and instead chooses to play Rashard Lewis, who was 22% from threes and 30% from the field. I don't get how you randomly insert Beasley into that game 7. What was the point of that? Did he just decide one day that Beasley was going to play despite never playing in the playoffs for them that season (he played garbage minutes)?

Jeffy25
08-06-2014, 10:07 PM
PS. Before anyone says "Look at what Lebron did with Cleveland before, with less talent" think of this: The league is SIGNIFICANTLY more talented now top to bottom than it was then. So it takes more talent now to even contend.

Maybe so, but Lebron is also better now than he was then.

3ballbomber
08-06-2014, 10:08 PM
There's more basketball in the world than the NBA. In fact, I would argue that its harder being a successful overseas coach than it is an NBA one because overseas, you don't lean on star players, you have to do it as a team and by understanding and utilizing every players strength and weaknesses.

Blatt excels at this, as shown by his multiple titles in multiple leagues over superior talent.

Part of the Heats failure in the finals last season was Spoels inability to adjust once two of his three big stars proved ineffective. I don't feel that if the same situation arises with Blatt, he will be as flummoxed as Spoels.

we'll see not only how good he is but how long he will be a coach for Lebron, who is known to freelance and make his own shots and Gilbert will allow every antic and shenanigans Lebron gets up to, even more so than before in hope not to risk him leaving again. I believe Blatt is quick to put players in their place if they speak out of turn or not do as he says.......that will be an interesting trait to see beside Lebron James. I'll be watching intently w/ popcorn

3ballbomber
08-06-2014, 10:09 PM
Maybe so, but Lebron is also better now than he was then.
Are you sure? Leonard & Spurs sure made him look otherwise

Clippersfan86
08-06-2014, 10:10 PM
Flashbolt I think the Spurs and Heat were both "stacked". I didn't say Miami was the only stacked team in the league. You have a pretty circular and confusing logic that is difficult to read and quite frankly exhausting. I'm going to just have to start skipping the read.

Clippersfan86
08-06-2014, 10:11 PM
Maybe so, but Lebron is also better now than he was then.

Oh, no doubt. Lebron now is a better player than his Cleveland years. Although not by a huge margin.

Jeffy25
08-06-2014, 10:14 PM
Are you sure? Leonard & Spurs sure made him look otherwise

Worse than he was when he was in Cleveland?

How?

Jeffy25
08-06-2014, 10:14 PM
Oh, no doubt. Lebron now is a better player than his Cleveland years. Although not by a huge margin.

Is that margin smaller than how much better you believe the league is now?

FlashBolt
08-06-2014, 10:15 PM
Flashbolt I think the Spurs and Heat were both "stacked". I didn't say Miami was the only stacked team in the league. You have a pretty circular and confusing logic that is difficult to read and quite frankly exhausting. I'm going to just have to start skipping the read.

You avoided all the legitimate points but you always backhandle and give YOUR team the benefit of a doubt. By claiming Heat were stacked when they actually had to go through game 7's multiple times pretty much beats your argument. You specifically said Ray Allen had to hit a three against the Spurs to beat them but then you called them a stacked squad. Now you're changing it up and mentioning that Spurs were stacked as well. Good call.

Clippersfan86
08-06-2014, 10:25 PM
You avoided all the legitimate points but you always backhandle and give YOUR team the benefit of a doubt. By claiming Heat were stacked when they actually had to go through game 7's multiple times pretty much beats your argument. You specifically said Ray Allen had to hit a three against the Spurs to beat them but then you called them a stacked squad. Now you're changing it up and mentioning that Spurs were stacked as well. Good call.

How does it nullify my point if one stacked team takes 7 games to beat another? I'm not just throwing this out there, these were the two most talented teams in the league and the numbers back it up (for first 3 years as I said. This last year Heat were the 4th best team at most). I didn't need to point out the obvious in regards to the Spurs. As for other game 7's like vs the Pacers.. that had to do with matchup entirely, not equal talent. If you can't analyze the game on a micro level, that's your problem not mine. I shouldn't have to explain any of this, because anybody who knows the game would agree with the following.

1. In Lebron's first 3 years in Miami... his TEAM was stacked and the most talented in the league (in large part to him, yes.). It was the whole fu**ing reason everyone cried about how unfair the "Big 3" forming was and the Heat became the most hated team in the league.

2. The Spurs were stacked/loaded as well and the best the west had to offer these last two years obviously. Statistically they were a legendary good team, not sure what you're contesting here.

Look up the definition of mutually exclusive and study it for a bit. Then return.

Clippersfan86
08-06-2014, 10:31 PM
Is that margin smaller than how much better you believe the league is now?

I think the margin of the league improvement vs Lebron's is significantly better, yes. In 2006-2007 12 NBA teams had a positive SRS rating, compared to 16 this season. There were pretty much zero contenders in the east that year and the Cavs breezed to the finals. You could say there were maybe 3 legit contenders in the NBA with the Spurs/Mavs/Suns. Skip to now? You have probably 5-6 legit contenders.

JLeBeau76
08-06-2014, 10:37 PM
we'll see not only how good he is but how long he will be a coach for Lebron, who is known to freelance and make his own shots and Gilbert will allow every antic and shenanigans Lebron gets up to, even more so than before in hope not to risk him leaving again. I believe Blatt is quick to put players in their place if they speak out of turn or not do as he says.......that will be an interesting trait to see beside Lebron James. I'll be watching intently w/ popcorn

Good point. Its going to be an adjustment for sure. I just hope that LeBron and Blatt can come to a mutual recognition of each others basketball intelligence and that both can check some ego at the door.

I think it will come down to whether LeBron sees Blatt as just another guy who hasn't coached an NBA game or if he looks at his overall resume and accomplishments.

I have to believe that someone with as high a basketball IQ as James recognizes what Blatt brings to the table coaching wise and that he approves.

bucketss
08-06-2014, 10:41 PM
Oh, no doubt. Lebron now is a better player than his Cleveland years. Although not by a huge margin.

less athletic more skilled. Ie:jumpshot,post game,

Captain Moroni
08-07-2014, 12:55 AM
Kyrie, love, bron, you could surround them with d league talent....they still take the east

prodigy
08-07-2014, 01:23 AM
This.

I agree it will be tough for cavs to beat the west champs, but Im shocked at people saying bulls and wizards can beat the cavs. If rose is MVP type player then maybe they have a shot but let's be real now. Lebron dragged wades corpse to the finals, love, Irving, waiters, TT av etc.... common 'now

I take it your a cavs fan wade wasn't himself but he was far from a corpse and bosh is an all star lbj is the best player in the nba but ther is also a thing called defense and if love goes to the cavs their defense is going to suck

Did you watch the playoffs and most importantly the finals? That was a corpse. He couldn't even jump!

Lebron, AV, Della are all real good defenders, waiters is underrated he just gets lazy. Irving and love never been on a title contender so they never cared about defense, now they will. Coach K even said the other day Irving always plays good defense. I just want him and love to be OK defenders. Which I think they will.

east fb knicks
08-07-2014, 01:37 AM
Did you watch the playoffs and most importantly the finals? That was a corpse. He couldn't even jump!

Lebron, AV, Della are all real good defenders, waiters is underrated he just gets lazy. Irving and love never been on a title contender so they never cared about defense, now they will. Coach K even said the other day Irving always plays good defense. I just want him and love to be OK defenders. Which I think they will.

yeah wade was done in the finals but for the most part he was still helpful in getting lbj to the finals and bosh is still an all star varejao is a shell of his former self and he's the only good defender on that I just don't see them being a scary team I actually think they'd be a better team if they keep wiggins

JLeBeau76
08-07-2014, 02:31 AM
yeah wade was done in the finals but for the most part he was still helpful in getting lbj to the finals and bosh is still an all star varejao is a shell of his former self and he's the only good defender on that I just don't see them being a scary team I actually think they'd be a better team if they keep wiggins

The Cavs center position is their weak point as AV would be best at around 20 mins off the bench. that's why I could see Thompson eventually starting at center till they get someone legit.

Wiggins, however, wouldn't help that deficiency and if the Cavs get Marion as presumed, he is another good perimeter defender.

east fb knicks
08-07-2014, 03:00 AM
The Cavs center position is their weak point as AV would be best at around 20 mins off the bench. that's why I could see Thompson eventually starting at center till they get someone legit.

Wiggins, however, wouldn't help that deficiency and if the Cavs get Marion as presumed, he is another good perimeter defender.

meh marion can play the 4 and wiggins could play the 2 but more importantly instead of trading bennet and wiggins for love the cavs could keep wiggins and just trade waiters and bennet or tt for a better center

JLeBeau76
08-07-2014, 03:47 AM
meh marion can play the 4 and wiggins could play the 2 but more importantly instead of trading bennet and wiggins for love the cavs could keep wiggins and just trade waiters and bennet or tt for a better center

Honestly, I think when LeBron and Gilbert sat down in that secret meeting they hashed out exactly what James wanted as far as roster. Basically a younger, more dependable version of the Heat.

That meant getting Love which means sacrificing Wiggins and Bennett, something LBJ approved.

In James's head, a stretch four trumps a good center...and I wouldn't rule out the Cavs somehow getting another serviceable big before training camp.

Right or wrong its win now in Cle, and Love trumps Wiggins in the short term at the very least.

Clippersfan86
08-07-2014, 10:03 AM
I will be reminding people of this thread throughout the year. Not based on win or lose, because it's going to take time to mesh. But purely based on the specific issues I pointed out (whether they are occurring or not).

prodigy
08-07-2014, 10:35 AM
Don't sleep on Haywood, I guess he's now healthy. He was a good defender and rebounder. Idk, but they will def address center

Arch Stanton
08-07-2014, 05:44 PM
I will be reminding people of this thread throughout the year. Not based on win or lose, because it's going to take time to mesh. But purely based on the specific issues I pointed out (whether they are occurring or not).

They have 82 games to figure it out. And we will remind you if this thread.

Clippersfan86
11-23-2014, 04:23 AM
I'm seeing a lot of talk about Love making this team title favorites, or without him them winning the east at least etc. People are getting caught up in the moment and not looking at things very logically. Let me tell you why this team will not live up to the hype.

1. Defense will be mediocre at best. Varejao and Lebron are the only good defenders and Varejao is good to miss a large part of the season every year pretty much. So Lebron will be the only good defender on the court at any given time most likely.

2. As mentioned above, the starting center Varejao has played 65, 25, 25, 31 games the last 4 seasons since his injury problems really started. Without him healthy this team is going to get slaughtered by the likes of Gasol/Noah or Nene/Gortat, the likely ECF foes.

3. Kyrie Irving is the same player, if not slightly declining his first 3 seasons. I have seen zero effort on defense especially and his attitude/leadership has been questioned more than once. I just don't see the "it" factor in this kid.

4. This team will have really average to bad depth after dealing all the pieces needed to get Love. With a few injury prone starters and not much depth to begin with PRIOR to trading Love, this will get exposed against Bulls/Wizards and maybe even Raptors/Hornets.


Maybe after a couple years of building chemistry and of guys developing they can become favorites, but it's not happening yet. People need to stop hyping this team. They will be awesome offensively once they mesh, but injuries/defense/depth can derail this team easier than people think.


PS. Before anyone says "Look at what Lebron did with Cleveland before, with less talent" think of this: The league is SIGNIFICANTLY more talented now top to bottom than it was then. So it takes more talent now to even contend.

Prophecy?

koreancabbage
11-23-2014, 04:39 AM
I think they would have been fine with the Wiggins / Bennet combination.

at least they work hard. Damn these Cavs look pretty uninterested on defense.

Sactown
11-23-2014, 06:06 AM
Prophecy?
Didn't Miami in there first year together go 9-9 and even dipped under .500 then went to the finals 4 straight times?

Minimal
11-23-2014, 06:46 AM
Didn't Miami in there first year together go 9-9 and even dipped under .500 then went to the finals 4 straight times?
miami was a different story, almost every player knew how to defend and had a smart winner mentality. This cavs team filled with brainless egoistical idiots, who can't defend to save their lives.

ewing
11-23-2014, 11:23 AM
The Cavs are not ready to be mental weiners

valade16
11-23-2014, 11:37 AM
At this point in time we have to give the OP credit, he nailed the Cavs struggles right on the head. They have time to turn it around but thus far they are doing exactly as he said they would.

curtcocaine
11-23-2014, 11:54 AM
At this point in time we have to give the OP credit, he nailed the Cavs struggles right on the head. They have time to turn it around but thus far they are doing exactly as he said they would.
This. Give credit where credit is due.

Clippersfan86
12-29-2014, 12:33 PM
More coming true with Varejao out rest of year and D plummeting. I also could of sworn I mentioned David Blatt not panning out, although that may have been the Kevin Love thread. I just didn't see how a supposedly all time great Euro coach would lead so many big egos on a contender right out of the gate. People forget Mike D'Antoni was a successful Euro coach as well and we see how that turned out in the end after the Phoenix years.

The NBA is a completely different game and Blatt may be in hot water already 1/3rd of the way in.

PurpleLynch
12-29-2014, 04:09 PM
More coming true with Varejao out rest of year and D plummeting. I also could of sworn I mentioned David Blatt not panning out, although that may have been the Kevin Love thread. I just didn't see how a supposedly all time great Euro coach would lead so many big egos on a contender right out of the gate. People forget Mike D'Antoni was a successful Euro coach as well and we see how that turned out in the end after the Phoenix years.

The NBA is a completely different game and Blatt may be in hot water already 1/3rd of the way in.

I agree,but D'Antoni is a completely different coach compared to Blatt. Blatt is more a Popovich kind of coach and he doesn't rely on the fast tempo like D'Antoni,that's why is more suitable than him in the NBA.
He definitely needs time,plus the lack of chemistry on this team is still the biggest problem.

BKLYNpigeon
12-29-2014, 04:36 PM
you can always trade Kevin Love!

lamzoka
12-29-2014, 05:45 PM
Crazy idea here. But how about Love, Kyrie and Waiters to the knicks for Melo, Calderón and this year's pick. It's almost guaranteed to be a top 5 pick.

Love must agree to resign with the knicks before this deal goes down.

bucketss
12-29-2014, 05:51 PM
Crazy idea here. But how about Love, Kyrie and Waiters to the knicks for Melo, Calderón and this year's pick. It's almost guaranteed to be a top 5 pick.

Love must agree to resign with the knicks before this deal goes down.

very lopsided in favor of the knicks.

Wade n Fade
12-29-2014, 06:18 PM
The Cavs are what I expected, a team struggling to defend other teams. When your shots don't go down, you need to play D to make up for it since good D can lead to easy transition buckets or points off turnovers. The Cavs don't have many defenders regardless. For LeBron, this is a team filled with "friends" and new teammates. Many of these guys are placed into a group together and have little time to get acclimated. I see LeBron bolting to LA to play w/ CP3 and Blake Griffin. W/ LeBron, the Clippers would be complete since they have Griffin and Jordan to rebound, CP3 to lock down other guards, and LeBron to fill out the 3/wing. A SG is easier to find than a competent 3 too. There is a reason beyond the TV deal hoopla regarding his 1 year deal + an option.

tredigs
12-29-2014, 06:19 PM
Crazy idea here. But how about Love, Kyrie and Waiters to the knicks for Melo, Calderón and this year's pick. It's almost guaranteed to be a top 5 pick.

Love must agree to resign with the knicks before this deal goes down.

Why would Cleveland do that? They're trying to win now, and this makes them significantly worse.

RLundi
12-29-2014, 06:28 PM
OP is a soothsayer.

kobe4thewinbang
12-29-2014, 08:11 PM
TL;DR

All speculation. Cleveland will be just fine. They're in the weak east, and it's just their first year together. Who gives a fuq?

MTar786
12-29-2014, 10:45 PM
only way cavs can turn things around is if they trade waiters and have lebron play point guard almost exclusively.
now with varajeo out they should trade waiters for a good rebounding and defending center. tyson chandler would have been perfect for them..

bucketss
12-29-2014, 10:51 PM
only way cavs can turn things around is if they trade waiters and have lebron play point guard almost exclusively.
now with varajeo out they should trade waiters for a good rebounding and defending center. tyson chandler would have been perfect for them..

they will probably trade for brenden wright.

dalton749
12-29-2014, 11:16 PM
They need to trade waiters And kirk to the Knicks for dalembert and shumpert
Then trade Tristan Thompson to boston for wright and jameer

Kyrie
Shumpert
Lebron
Love
dalembert

Nelson
Miller
Marion
Wright

Makes them quite a bit better, and gives them guys that fit to win now, instead of waiting on development

goingfor28
12-30-2014, 01:23 AM
The Cavs are what I expected, a team struggling to defend other teams. When your shots don't go down, you need to play D to make up for it since good D can lead to easy transition buckets or points off turnovers. The Cavs don't have many defenders regardless. For LeBron, this is a team filled with "friends" and new teammates. Many of these guys are placed into a group together and have little time to get acclimated. I see LeBron bolting to LA to play w/ CP3 and Blake Griffin. W/ LeBron, the Clippers would be complete since they have Griffin and Jordan to rebound, CP3 to lock down other guards, and LeBron to fill out the 3/wing. A SG is easier to find than a competent 3 too. There is a reason beyond the TV deal hoopla regarding his 1 year deal + an option.
No way they can afford Blake, CP3, DJ AND LeBron

Vinylman
12-30-2014, 09:32 AM
Cleveland's roster is far from done... as for the initial prediction... big deal... to predict this team would play bad D with the current roster of old farts and young chuckers was as easy as predicting the sun will come up tomorrow.

It is like predicting a Varejao injury to happen... a non-event

MILLERHIGHLIFE
12-30-2014, 09:52 AM
Thing is Cavs don't have much trade bait. Waiters value is low other wise he would of been dealt long time ago already when the feud of him and Irving kicked in. Who wants Thompson when he will become a RFA? Didn't he decline a extension of 4/ $40M? I wouldn't want him at $7M per. Will be interesting if Pacers bite on a Hibbert trade to Cavs. Bogans TPE might have some value to a team that wants out of the luxury tax. But all in all Cavs need to sign players on the cheap like a Okafor or Ray Allen. But sounds like Ray wants to retire and Okafor isn't healthy yet.

Clippersfan86
12-30-2014, 01:17 PM
Cleveland's roster is far from done... as for the initial prediction... big deal... to predict this team would play bad D with the current roster of old farts and young chuckers was as easy as predicting the sun will come up tomorrow.

It is like predicting a Varejao injury to happen... a non-event

The point wasn't that they're "done". It was that they will struggle more than many thought and exactly WHY they would struggle. They are sadly like my very own Clippers where they are just built in a very imbalanced way. Ton of firepower, with almost no D. This thread wasn't a declaration that the Cavs were fu**ed, so much as it was a calm down proclaiming them champs from day one.

The difference between Boston and Miami's "Big 3's" was that they were already older, declining individually superstars who were willing to give up 100 percent of their ego and pride. Love and Irving already have a history of locker room issues and bad attitudes and I knew that their adjustment period would be much longer. If Love sticks around and the team shuffles a few players like Waiters for defensive stoppers... this team can turn it around pretty quickly IMO.

Clippersfan86
12-30-2014, 01:19 PM
Adding Okafor and trading Waiters for something like Sefalosha and a pick would do a lot of good for this team IMO. Doesn't have to be Sefalosha specifically but just someone like that who can D up and knock down 3's occasionally to spread floor for Lebron and Love. Shawn Marion of 3 years ago would of done wonders for this team.

bucketss
12-30-2014, 01:21 PM
Thing is Cavs don't have much trade bait. Waiters value is low other wise he would of been dealt long time ago already when the feud of him and Irving kicked in. Who wants Thompson when he will become a RFA? Didn't he decline a extension of 4/ $40M? I wouldn't want him at $7M per. Will be interesting if Pacers bite on a Hibbert trade to Cavs. Bogans TPE might have some value to a team that wants out of the luxury tax. But all in all Cavs need to sign players on the cheap like a Okafor or Ray Allen. But sounds like Ray wants to retire and Okafor isn't healthy yet.

i think they have a lot of first rounders no?

Vinylman
12-30-2014, 01:56 PM
The point wasn't that they're "done". It was that they will struggle more than many thought and exactly WHY they would struggle. They are sadly like my very own Clippers where they are just built in a very imbalanced way. Ton of firepower, with almost no D. This thread wasn't a declaration that the Cavs were fu**ed, so much as it was a calm down proclaiming them champs from day one.

The difference between Boston and Miami's "Big 3's" was that they were already older, declining individually superstars who were willing to give up 100 percent of their ego and pride. Love and Irving already have a history of locker room issues and bad attitudes and I knew that their adjustment period would be much longer. If Love sticks around and the team shuffles a few players like Waiters for defensive stoppers... this team can turn it around pretty quickly IMO.

not saying that they are "done" was your point ... I said they aren't done with roster moves and to think they were even at the beginning of the year was naďve... they had a lot of holes then and still do now...

Again... nothing that has happened to the Cavs to this point is a surprise to this observer... nor should it have been to anyone with even limited knowledge of basketball.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
12-30-2014, 02:17 PM
i think they have a lot of first rounders no?


Pick Swaps:
•2015 — Chicago Bulls have right to swap first-rounders (top-14 protected, Luol Deng).
•2015 — Owed first-rounder (top-five protected and 15-30 protected through 2016, top-five protected in 2017 and 2018, unprotected in 2019) from the Memphis Grizzlies (Marreese Speights).
•2015 — Owed second-rounder (top-55 protected) from Boston Celtics (Tyler Zeller).
•2015 — Owed second-rounder (top-55 protected) from Sacramento Kings (Sam Cassell, Keith Bogans).
•2015 — Owed second rounder (51-55 range, provided pick doesn’t go to Boston Celtics) from Philadelphia 76ers (Keith Bogans).
•2015 — Owe second-rounder to Utah Jazz (John Lucas III).
•2016 — Owed second-rounder (top-55 protected) from Los Angeles Clippers (Rasual Butler, Alonzo Gee).
•2016 — Owe first-rounder (top-10 protected through 2018, unprotected in 2019) to Boston Celtics (Tyler Zeller).
•2016 — Owe second-rounder to Boston Celtics (Keith Bogans).
•2017 — Owed second-rounder (top-55 protected) from Sacramento Kings (Marquis Daniels, Keith Bogans).
•2017 — Owe second-rounder to Boston Celtics (Keith Bogans).
•2018 — Owe second-rounder to Philadelphia 76ers (Keith Bogans), may to to Brooklyn Nets (Andrei Kirilenko).


http://www.basketballinsiders.com/cleveland-cavaliers-team-salary/

Yeah Cavs have two first rounder's this draft. They receive very late Grizzlies pick #29. Bulls have right to swap picks with Cavs own pick though. Late first aren't to appealing when Cavs want legit big man in all trades. Teams just aren't gonna bend over backwards to give away decent proven big man and receive crapshoot late first round picks.

Clippersfan86
12-30-2014, 03:38 PM
not saying that they are "done" was your point ... I said they aren't done with roster moves and to think they were even at the beginning of the year was naďve... they had a lot of holes then and still do now...

Again... nothing that has happened to the Cavs to this point is a surprise to this observer... nor should it have been to anyone with even limited knowledge of basketball.

So you mean Vegas had them as clear cut favorites based on the idea that they would still make multiple moves to fill holes? Or that NBA fans here and otherwise predicting finals or a title just knew further moves would happen? Stop playing.

Tony_Starks
12-30-2014, 03:46 PM
The funniest thing to me is people talking about Loves lack of defense like they are seriously surprised. The guy has been a horrible defender since he entered league, he's just a great rebounder good shooter.

bucketss
12-30-2014, 03:49 PM
The funniest thing to me is people talking about Loves lack of defense like they are seriously surprised. The guy has been a horrible defender since he entered league, he's just a great rebounder good shooter.

great passer aswell,high iq player,

Clippersfan86
12-30-2014, 04:48 PM
great passer aswell,high iq player,

He had ONE great passing year, don't think he deserves the "great" descriptor yet. More like solid passer. His career APG is 2.5 in 6 seasons and that's with last year's anomaly average of 4.4.

RowBTrice
12-30-2014, 05:06 PM
I think Drew Carey had it right all along.......