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spreadeagle
08-04-2014, 08:23 PM
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The Cleveland Cavaliers and Minnesota Timberwolves have a "handshake agreement" in place for a trade involving No. 1 pick Andrew Wiggins and Timberwolves All-NBA forward Kevin Love, according to ESPN's Brian Windhorst.

In speaking on ESPN Radio, Windhorst dished out on the details:

The deal is done, but not done. The teams have agreed, but they can’t say they’ve agreed, and they can't agree because we’re in this weird moratorium period because you can’t trade Andrew Wiggins until the 23rd [of August].

Between now and then, which is 19 days, could some event happen, could a team come in with a trade that maybe Minnesota doesn't see? Yes. So in that sense, the deal isn't done.

But essentially, before the papers have been signed, there is this handshake agreement that Kevin Love [would be traded] to the Cavaliers, Andrew Wiggins to the Timberwolves

Windhorst adds that the trade could expand to include Philadelphia 76ers forward Thaddeus Young being moved to Minnesota, and the Cavaliers' 2013 top overall pick Anthony Bennett being dealt to the Sixers.http://www.thescore.com/nba/news/549178

mbsalame123
08-04-2014, 08:36 PM
I have been saying it for a long time and will say it again this will be a three team trade between the cavs, sixers, and wolves that looks like this:

wolves get: thaddeus young, andrew wiggins, john lucas, erik murphy, draft pick

sixers get: anthony bennett, jj barea and a draft pick

cavaliers get: kevin love and a draft pick

This is an amazing deal for all teams involved and I expect it to be something like the trade above with possibly others involved.

Blitzace137
08-04-2014, 08:45 PM
I have been saying it for a long time and will say it again this will be a three team trade between the cavs, sixers, and wolves that looks like this:

wolves get: thaddeus young, andrew wiggins, john lucas, erik murphy, draft pick

sixers get: anthony bennett, jj barea and a draft pick

cavaliers get: kevin love and a draft pick

This is an amazing deal for all teams involved and I expect it to be something like the trade above with possibly others involved.

What about Kevin Martin thought he would be part of the deal?

IndyRealist
08-04-2014, 08:45 PM
I have been saying it for a long time and will say it again this will be a three team trade between the cavs, sixers, and wolves that looks like this:

wolves get: thaddeus young, andrew wiggins, john lucas, erik murphy, draft pick

sixers get: anthony bennett, jj barea and a draft pick

cavaliers get: kevin love and a draft pick

This is an amazing deal for all teams involved and I expect it to be something like the trade above with possibly others involved.

Why is everyone moving draft picks in this deal? Philly is working really hard to be really bad. I don't think they're going to be trading picks away anytime soon.

numba1CHANGsta
08-04-2014, 08:46 PM
Why do NBA teams constantly try to help out LeBron? Does the NBA want this guy to win every year? Wiggins+Bennett for Love isn't enough especially if he's going to re-sign. The NBA gave the Cavs the first pick for exactly this kind of situation.

Blitzace137
08-04-2014, 08:49 PM
Why do NBA teams constantly try to help out LeBron? Does the NBA want this guy to win every year? Wiggins+Bennett for Love isn't enough especially if he's going to re-sign. The NBA gave the Cavs the first pick for exactly this kind of situation.

Yes it is, especially since the Wolves have little leverage because Love already said he won't re-sign with them, not to mention the rumors that Love would re-sign with no one but the Cavs. If I'm the Wolves any deal that involves Wiggins I would take it and run.

mngopher35
08-04-2014, 08:56 PM
Why do NBA teams constantly try to help out LeBron? Does the NBA want this guy to win every year? Wiggins+Bennett for Love isn't enough especially if he's going to re-sign. The NBA gave the Cavs the first pick for exactly this kind of situation.

This is definitely the best deal we are going to get. Wiggins has a ton of potential and we lose Love after this year no matter what. It gives us 7 years to build around a new "star" and these first 4 he will be cheap.

Dade County
08-04-2014, 08:59 PM
Why do NBA teams constantly try to help out LeBron? Does the NBA want this guy to win every year? Wiggins+Bennett for Love isn't enough especially if he's going to re-sign. The NBA gave the Cavs the first pick for exactly this kind of situation.

+

They gave them 3 1st round picks, & controlled the Miami HEAT, so they didn't run through the league breaking all team records & winning championships each & every single year. They didn't want what the Big 3 did to ruin the league.

goingfor28
08-04-2014, 09:03 PM
Heat*

THE MTL
08-04-2014, 09:10 PM
This is definitely the best deal we are going to get. Wiggins has a ton of potential and we lose Love after this year no matter what. It gives us 7 years to build around a new "star" and these first 4 he will be cheap.

And history will most likely repeat it's self...

Wiggins needs to write his own later, and refuse to go to Minnesota; tell the word that you want to go home :laugh:

Who could get mad at him, the team that drafted him traded him before he ever played a game for them.

I'm going Home part 2

I think playing in minny is the best thing for wiggins career. If he is to become a superstar he needs his own team. Right now he will be playing behind Lebron and Irving.

jpagemn
08-04-2014, 09:13 PM
And history will most likely repeat it's self...

Wiggins needs to write his own later, and refuse to go to Minnesota; tell the word that you want to go home :laugh:

Who could get mad at him, the team that drafted him traded him before he ever played a game for them.

I'm going Home part 2

So...he's going to play for the raptors?

WITZ
08-04-2014, 09:14 PM
+

They gave them 3 1st round picks, & controlled the Miami HEAT, so they didn't run through the league breaking all team records & winning championships each & every single year. They didn't want what the Big 3 did to ruin the league.

The nba didn't make wade **** the bed in the finals. He made Harden look like an all nba defender compared to himself :laugh2:

smith&wesson
08-04-2014, 09:37 PM
And history will most likely repeat it's self...

Wiggins needs to write his own later, and refuse to go to Minnesota; tell the word that you want to go home :laugh:

Who could get mad at him, the team that drafted him traded him before he ever played a game for them.

I'm going Home part 2

that would be awesome

come home to Toronto wiggy

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-04-2014, 09:41 PM
They'll be good, but the bulls will take care of them.

NoahH
08-04-2014, 09:42 PM
Wolves get Wiggins for 7 years til he leaves just like KG and Love

mbsalame123
08-04-2014, 09:44 PM
What about Kevin Martin thought he would be part of the deal?

I have been hearing that flip saunders might not want to get rid of kevin martin since he wants to remain competitive after this trade and with a core of rubio, martin, wiggins, young, pekovic and a bench of brewer, dieng, lavine and other decent talent the wolves can remain competitive.

However if the wolves insist on martin being included then I could see barea coming to cleveland considering they need a backup point guard and then martin heads over to philly.

mbsalame123
08-04-2014, 09:46 PM
Why is everyone moving draft picks in this deal? Philly is working really hard to be really bad. I don't think they're going to be trading picks away anytime soon.

the draft pick wouldnt be a 1st rounder, it would be a second rounder. Draft picks are always included so I would expect the cavs to at least get a second rounder and maybe take on alexey shved if not barea in the process.

3ballbomber
08-04-2014, 09:46 PM
I hope Wiggens beasts in Minny. He will have alot of motivation this coming season.

mbsalame123
08-04-2014, 09:48 PM
Why do NBA teams constantly try to help out LeBron? Does the NBA want this guy to win every year? Wiggins+Bennett for Love isn't enough especially if he's going to re-sign. The NBA gave the Cavs the first pick for exactly this kind of situation.

There is something called, economy, business, and marketing. The NBA makes a lot of money from Lebron James and well when he left to Miami, the NBA kind of took a hit considering all the hate grown towards him so they had a plan to get him back to cleveland in order to bolster NBA popularity and draw a huge viewer audience for the future since a story of lebron coming back home as the best player in the nba to try and redeem himself and win a championship for a city that hasn't won in a long time is a perfect selling point for the NBA and all of its viewers.

NBAfan4life
08-04-2014, 09:48 PM
I wish the Wolves wouldn't be stupid, take Bennett and rebuild for another year. Young is only going to bring mediocrity.

mbsalame123
08-04-2014, 09:55 PM
I think playing in minny is the best thing for wiggins career. If he is to become a superstar he needs his own team. Right now he will be playing behind Lebron and Irving.

I can picture Wiggins in Minnesota so much clearer than Wiggins in Cleveland. I feel like he would be lost in the whole process with lebron james, waiters, irving and other talent that need the ball in their hands. In minnesota he gets to flourish as a true #1 pick with ricky rubio as his running mate and other players who would play a key role in his growth.

Now people will say Wiggins might leave in a few years but getting him for 7 years would be great and well he might end up staying if the future looks bright in Minnesota, considering they wont make it to the playoffs anytime soon and they already have a pretty good talented young core to build around for the future with wiggins, rubio, lavine, and dieng, all they would need is another big man like young or bennett who would make this team a nice young talented team. After all look at teams like the magic, nuggets, pelicans, and jazz who got some pretty good decent talent in return for their superstars and have a nice future nba team.

mbsalame123
08-04-2014, 09:58 PM
I wish the Wolves wouldn't be stupid, take Bennett and rebuild for another year. Young is only going to bring mediocrity.

I think bennett would serve great for the future however the wolves are so intent on trading away their bad contracts like barea and martin and well have been going through the rebuilding process for a while now so getting some good talent in return that can compete right now, that is proven, would be great! Bennett might end up being better than young and play like a top pick after a bad rookie season, I think he and Wiggins would fit well in terms of marketing and playing style because they are canadian so they already have the chemistry and well Minnesota is the closest place to Canada so that would be great!

But Saunders feels like a team with young, wiggins, rubio, martin, pekovic, dieng, lavine, budinger, brewer, mo williams, is a team that can compete now and well to be honest, this team looks great on paper!

mbsalame123
08-04-2014, 10:05 PM
The news of Shawn Marion meeting with Cleveland should be a clear indication that the trade is almost completed or agreed to considering many people have compared wiggins to a shawn marion and well getting him would be a nice replacement and add nice depth to the cavs bench. Imagine they sign him and ray allen to add to a bench with tristan thompson and mike miller. The cavaliers would be great!

This could be a potential cavaliers roster:

Anderson Varejao
Kevin Love
Lebron James
Dion Waiters
Kyrie Irving
Tristan Thompson
Shawn Marion
Ray Allen
Mike Miller
Branden Haywood
James Jones
Alexey Shved
Joe Harris
Dwight Powell
Matt Dillevadova

The wolves roster would have great potential too after the trade with a roster like this:

Nikola Pekovic
Thaddeus Young
Andrew Wiggins
Kevin Martin
Ricky Rubio
Corey Brewer
Zach Lavine
Gorgui Dieng
Mo Williams
Chase Budinger
Luc Richard Mbah A Moute
Shabazz Muhammed
Glenn Robinson
Ronny Turiaf
Robbie Hummell

The sixers would get a nice big man who can play comfortably without any pressure on him considering the sixers dont care about winning right now and he and noel would be nice down low and when embiid comes back then he can be capable enough of playing the 3 spot. but here is their roster:

Nerlens Noel
Anthony Bennett
KJ Mcdaniels
Hollis Thompson
Michael Carter Williams
Tony Wroten
Joel Embiid
JJ Barea
Jordan Mcrae
Jerami Grant
Henry Sims
Jason Richardson
Arnett Moultrie
Elliot Williams
Pierre Jackson

These are all pretty good rosters with lots of potential after the trade

2-ONE-5
08-04-2014, 10:08 PM
Yes it is, especially since the Wolves have little leverage because Love already said he won't re-sign with them, not to mention the rumors that Love would re-sign with no one but the Cavs. If I'm the Wolves any deal that involves Wiggins I would take it and run.

but cavs have no leverage either since they cant sign Love outright next year and risk him going elsewhere as a FA.

3ballbomber
08-04-2014, 10:15 PM
There is something called, economy, business, and marketing. The NBA makes a lot of money from Lebron James and well when he left to Miami, the NBA kind of took a hit considering all the hate grown towards him so they had a plan to get him back to cleveland in order to bolster NBA popularity and draw a huge viewer audience for the future since a story of lebron coming back home as the best player in the nba to try and redeem himself and win a championship for a city that hasn't won in a long time is a perfect selling point for the NBA and all of its viewers.
Spot on.

If people think the league is less corrupt now that Stern is gone, think again. Silver is his understudy.

SeoulBeatz
08-04-2014, 10:31 PM
I'd be extremely happy to get Bennett and a pick for Thad.

He seems to be bouncing back from that horrendous rookie season. Looked more in shape in summer league and his shot looks to have improved (it could only get better after last year), but I like his skillset and it's not like the Sixers are counting on him to be a star.

bleedprple&gold
08-04-2014, 10:32 PM
I think playing in minny is the best thing for wiggins career. If he is to become a superstar he needs his own team. Right now he will be playing behind Lebron and Irving.

I can picture Wiggins in Minnesota so much clearer than Wiggins in Cleveland. I feel like he would be lost in the whole process with lebron james, waiters, irving and other talent that need the ball in their hands. In minnesota he gets to flourish as a true #1 pick with ricky rubio as his running mate and other players who would play a key role in his growth.

Now people will say Wiggins might leave in a few years but getting him for 7 years would be great and well he might end up staying if the future looks bright in Minnesota, considering they wont make it to the playoffs anytime soon and they already have a pretty good talented young core to build around for the future with wiggins, rubio, lavine, and dieng, all they would need is another big man like young or bennett who would make this team a nice young talented team. After all look at teams like the magic, nuggets, pelicans, and jazz who got some pretty good decent talent in return for their superstars and have a nice future nba team.

So when Wiggins wants to leave in 7 years they will trade him for the next up and coming stud. Then that stud will leave in 7 years after and they will trade him for the next stud 14 years from now. Rinse repeat.

JustinTime
08-04-2014, 10:35 PM
I'd be really surprised if Bennett isn't going to Minnesota with Wiggins. Bennett and Wiggins are good friends and not taking him on as well only assures that Wiggins will hate it there.

bucketss
08-04-2014, 10:42 PM
Why do NBA teams constantly try to help out LeBron? Does the NBA want this guy to win every year? Wiggins+Bennett for Love isn't enough especially if he's going to re-sign. The NBA gave the Cavs the first pick for exactly this kind of situation.

stop being biased.


ask any wolves fan and they will tell you how happy they would be to get bennet/wiggins. why? because they know love won't resign and now they can rebuild with two former #1 picks. now tell me any deal out there thats better? i'll wait.

DemarDerozan
08-04-2014, 10:47 PM
What if...

Minny shocks the world with Wiggins, Pek, Rubio and Lavine making the playoffs this year? Stranger things have happened. Melo lead the Nuggets to the playoffs his rookie year in a similarly string West.

bucketss
08-04-2014, 10:48 PM
I'd be really surprised if Bennett isn't going to Minnesota with Wiggins. Bennett and Wiggins are good friends and not taking him on as well only assures that Wiggins will hate it there.

and thats good thing, ;), but i don't think wiggins is that type of dude.

JustinTime
08-04-2014, 10:48 PM
stop being biased.


ask any wolves fan and they will tell you how happy they would be to get bennet/wiggins. why? because they know love won't resign and now they can rebuild with two former #1 picks. now tell me any deal out there thats better? i'll wait.

I was watching K Love highlights early and all I can say is the Cavs are going to regret this trade for a long time. K love is literally the only guy who tries for rebounds on that team everyone else just runs away and leaves it for him. I Hope TT some how gets on that starting lineup because it will be fun to watch Love's rebounding numbers go down.

JustinTime
08-04-2014, 10:52 PM
and thats good thing, ;), but i don't think wiggins is that type of dude.

I don't know people are always saying he's got no killer instinct but he looks like he wants to strangle some of these reporters recently. I doubt this is true anyways though I can't imagine the T-wolves would be dumb enough to trade him for Thad Young after ripping off the Cavs like this.

WITZ
08-04-2014, 10:54 PM
I was watching K Love highlights early and all I can say is the Cavs are going to regret this trade for a long time. K love is literally the only guy who tries for rebounds on that team everyone else just runs away and leaves it for him. I Hope TT some how gets on that starting lineup because it will be fun to watch Love's rebounding numbers go down.

TT and his ugly robotic jump shot are going to the bench where he belongs.

JLeBeau76
08-04-2014, 11:01 PM
I have been hearing that flip saunders might not want to get rid of kevin martin since he wants to remain competitive after this trade and with a core of rubio, martin, wiggins, young, pekovic and a bench of brewer, dieng, lavine and other decent talent the wolves can remain competitive.

However if the wolves insist on martin being included then I could see barea coming to cleveland considering they need a backup point guard and then martin heads over to philly.

Cle doesn't need a backup pg, they have Dellavedova. Good defensive pg who can hit an open three.

JustinTime
08-04-2014, 11:02 PM
TT and his ugly robotic jump shot are going to the bench where he belongs.

K Love is basically TT with a shot and better passing.

WITZ
08-04-2014, 11:04 PM
K Love is basically TT with a shot and better passing.

:laugh: This is sig material

shep33
08-04-2014, 11:06 PM
Cleveland is going to dominate the east. Only other team that can stop them is Chicago... and that's if Rose is healthy. If he isn't, it's a cakewalk.

dnl123
08-04-2014, 11:12 PM
:laugh: This is sig material

I'm totally using it.

JustinTime
08-04-2014, 11:13 PM
:laugh: This is sig material

Put it in there it will make be look like a genius in a years time when Love #'s are all depleted and Cleveland still sucks.

Arch Stanton
08-04-2014, 11:14 PM
:laugh: This is sig material

Geez homerism at its finest and he's not even a Cavs fan.

seikou8
08-04-2014, 11:14 PM
K Love is basically TT with a shot and better passing.

yeah u are drunk imaoooooooo

Arch Stanton
08-04-2014, 11:16 PM
Put it in there it will make be look like a genius in a years time when Love #'s are all depleted and Cleveland still sucks.

The Cavs may suck in 3 years and if that's the case it must mean Love nor LeBron is on the roster.

Arch Stanton
08-04-2014, 11:18 PM
Looks like Mr. Time is going to have to root for multiple teams with all these Canadians spread out across the NBA. Don't forget to set your clock!

WITZ
08-04-2014, 11:18 PM
Geez homerism at its finest and he's not even a Cavs fan.

I was like wtf is this **** than i remembered he is a Canadian homer lol and it made perfect sense.

JustinTime
08-04-2014, 11:19 PM
yeah u are drunk imaoooooooo

What else does Love have beside better passing and Shooting? he's a poor defender like TT, good rebounder like TT, I've watched Love before and I don't see much else fill me?

JustinTime
08-04-2014, 11:20 PM
I was like wtf is this **** than i remembered he is a Canadian homer lol and it made perfect sense.

But I don't even like TT, Arch knows that i've told him before.

Arch Stanton
08-04-2014, 11:21 PM
I was like wtf is this **** than i remembered he is a Canadian homer lol and it made perfect sense.

:laugh2: yeah I was thinking maybe I stated that incorrectly. It's homerism in the sense that he's rooting for Canadian players not American Teams.

Arch Stanton
08-04-2014, 11:23 PM
But I don't even like TT, Arch knows that i've told him before.

But he's essentially the same as Kevin Love? I like TT but he will never be close the talent as Kevin Love. If he could just learn to defend, block shots, and grab rebounds I'd be pumped.

seikou8
08-04-2014, 11:26 PM
What else does Love have beside better passing and Shooting? he's a poor defender like TT, good rebounder like TT, I've watched Love before and I don't see much else fill me?

every aspect of the game kevin love is better kl is the best pf in the game tt is not even top 10 and if get into the numbers its not even close sorry this is a silly comparison.

bucketss
08-04-2014, 11:29 PM
But I don't even like TT, Arch knows that i've told him before.

why not? is it because hes from Toronto ? lol

mightybosstone
08-04-2014, 11:29 PM
They'll be good, but the bulls will take care of them.
I'd gladly put a wager on that bet. Lebron, Irving and Love is an insanely, ridiculously talented trio. The only thing keeping that roster from dominating the East would be potential injuries, which is a legitimate concern between Irving, Love and Varejao. But Chicago has injury concerns of its own to deal with, so that door certainly swings both ways.

JustinTime
08-04-2014, 11:31 PM
But he's essentially the same as Kevin Love? I like TT but he will never be close the talent as Kevin Love. If he could just learn to defend, block shots, and grab rebounds I'd be pumped.

I didn't say that though I said he can shoot and pass which makes him a much better player than TT. I was just suggesting that in terms of rebounding and defense they're similar. I've actually watched Love from time to time how many people here can say that? People don't seem to realize that his stats are greatly inflated on the T-wolves and he could end up as a 17 and 9rb guy on Cleveland with poor defense.

JLeBeau76
08-04-2014, 11:32 PM
What else does Love have beside better passing and Shooting? he's a poor defender like TT, good rebounder like TT, I've watched Love before and I don't see much else fill me?

I'm a huge TT fan and even I had a chuckle. Read what you wrote. You gave four categories for comparisons and half of them Love is remarkably better in. Smh.

here's an argument for you to run with...durability. TT has yet to miss a game!

mightybosstone
08-04-2014, 11:34 PM
What else does Love have beside better passing and Shooting? he's a poor defender like TT, good rebounder like TT, I've watched Love before and I don't see much else fill me?

This is essentially the equivalent of comparing a fast food hamburger to a really, really well cooked steak. Sure, you might crave a fast food hamburger from time to time instead of a steak and there's no shame in saying that you like fast food hamburgers. But it's ****ing steak. Nobody with more than half a brain would suggest that a fast food hamburger is a higher quality meal than a steak and nobody with any remote knowledge of the NBA would suggest Thompson was better than Love.

And this is coming from a diehard Longhorn fan who loved Thompson at UT and wants so very badly to see him succeed.

JustinTime
08-04-2014, 11:35 PM
why not? is it because hes from Toronto ? lol

I mean I'm not going out of my way to watch him he's kind of like Amir Johnson they're boring energy guys. I'd prefer to watch someone like Wiggins or Bennett who actually have some finesse skill than Thompson that's all I mean.

JustinTime
08-04-2014, 11:40 PM
I'm a huge TT fan and even I had a chuckle. Read what you wrote. You gave four categories for comparisons and half of them Love is remarkably better in. Smh.

here's an argument for you to run with...durability. TT has yet to miss a game!

But only two of those categories am I actually comparing him to Love in Defense and Rebounding. The other two Shooting and passing Love wipes the floor with TT.

mightybosstone
08-04-2014, 11:45 PM
But only two of those categories am I actually comparing him to Love in Defense and Rebounding. The other two Shooting and passing Love wipes the floor with TT.

Except Love absolutely mops the floor with Thompson in terms of rebounding. Thompson has posted a career TRB% of 16.6 and his best season was 17.5. Love's career TRB% is 20.9 and he never posted a season below 18.7 in his career. It's not remotely close.

Also, you're missing an absolutely huge component in this comparison: scoring. It's one thing to be a better shooter, but Love is also an absolute superior scorer. He can just beat you in far more ways than Thompson can, he's far more reliable and he's light years more efficient. They're just on completely different tiers as basketball players in pretty much every possible way, but especially in regards to scoring. And no trait in the NBA is placed at a higher premium.

bucketss
08-04-2014, 11:48 PM
I mean I'm not going out of my way to watch him he's kind of like Amir Johnson they're boring energy guys. I'd prefer to watch someone like Wiggins or Bennett who actually have some finesse skill than Thompson that's all I mean.

i know you're Canadian but just curious are you a raptors fan?

FlashBolt
08-04-2014, 11:52 PM
I'm just crying at the level of idiocy some of you are showing. You specifically stated that NBA makes a lot of money off LeBron. Yet, did you see who won the NBA Finals? Give me a break. Stop finding conspiracies and get out of your twin mattress bed. You're watching a sport and a team that happened to get lucky and has things going for them.

Dade County
08-04-2014, 11:52 PM
I'd gladly put a wager on that bet. Lebron, Irving and Love is an insanely, ridiculously talented trio. The only thing keeping that roster from dominating the East would be potential injuries, which is a legitimate concern between Irving, Love and Varejao. But Chicago has injury concerns of its own to deal with, so that door certainly swings both ways.

Agreed.

It seems like no one whats to factor that in. Both these teams might not make it pass the 2nd rd because of injuries.

JLeBeau76
08-04-2014, 11:56 PM
But only two of those categories am I actually comparing him to Love in Defense and Rebounding. The other two Shooting and passing Love wipes the floor with TT.

Not trying to jump on you, just trying to follow the logic. I understand you see more in Wiggins and Bennett than in Love and I respect that.

Bringing TT into the equation, however, doesn't help express that considering they are vastly different players.

I believe you feel that this trade hampers the Cavs long term and that could very well be true. The thing is the return of LBJ has to change the priorities of the org and to get a player of Love's caliber to go with Bron and KI while essentially only trading one player that was on the squad a year ago, is pretty much a no-brainer (though I also struggled at times with the thought of trading Wiggins), imo.

JustinTime
08-05-2014, 12:04 AM
i know you're Canadian but just curious are you a raptors fan?

They're my rental team until I get my Grizz back. I'm no die hard or anything but I'm going to see their exhibition game in Vancouver in October.

JustinTime
08-05-2014, 12:10 AM
Not trying to jump on you, just trying to follow the logic. I understand you see more in Wiggins and Bennett than in Love and I respect that.

Bringing TT into the equation, however, doesn't help express that considering they are vastly different players.

I believe you feel that this trade hampers the Cavs long term and that could very well be true. The thing is the return of LBJ has to change the priorities of the org and to get a player of Love's caliber to go with Bron and KI while essentially only trading one player that was on the squad a year ago, is pretty much a no-brainer (though I also struggled at times with the thought of trading Wiggins), imo.

I personally want to see Wiggins and Bennett moved because it's best for their development. My problem is that I think the Cavs couldn't have handled the situation more poorly and I think they are chasing the wrong guy. If i'm a Cavs fan and i'm giving up these guys i'm going to want someone like Aldridge whose taken his team to the playoffs not an overrated K Love.

koreancabbage
08-05-2014, 12:12 AM
I think playing in minny is the best thing for wiggins career. If he is to become a superstar he needs his own team. Right now he will be playing behind Lebron and Irving.

actually I think he'll be in a great position in terms of growing up, with a leader and helping him get easy shots. Wiggins can shoot all he wants in a system with Lebron James. but then again I look at it the other way as well bc Wiggins won't have the ball much in his hands and won't be able to create.

However, the lack of depth for the Cavs is gonna hurt them. From what I saw from Bennet - he would fit great next to Lebron becuase he can shoot the ball - not as great as Love, but serviceable, esp with James.

I actually think Bennet could benefit from James on his team because Bennet would space the floor out and play the role of Bosh - i.e. big man who can shoot, but as not as expensive as Love or Bosh.

and with the way Wiggins played in Summer League, the depth of Cleveland i.e. Irving, Wiggins, Waiters, Bennett, Varejao is already way more than what Lebron had in Miami.

and with Love, lets hope the system James has in Cleveland won't force Love to play like Bosh lol - because Cavs could have just played Bennett instead =(

FlashBolt
08-05-2014, 12:27 AM
actually I think he'll be in a great position in terms of growing up, with a leader and helping him get easy shots. Wiggins can shoot all he wants in a system with Lebron James. but then again I look at it the other way as well bc Wiggins won't have the ball much in his hands and won't be able to create.

However, the lack of depth for the Cavs is gonna hurt them. From what I saw from Bennet - he would fit great next to Lebron becuase he can shoot the ball - not as great as Love, but serviceable, esp with James.

I actually think Bennet could benefit from James on his team because Bennet would space the floor out and play the role of Bosh - i.e. big man who can shoot, but as not as expensive as Love or Bosh.

and with the way Wiggins played in Summer League, the depth of Cleveland i.e. Irving, Wiggins, Waiters, Bennett, Varejao is already way more than what Lebron had in Miami.

and with Love, lets hope the system James has in Cleveland won't force Love to play like Bosh lol - because Cavs could have just played Bennett instead =(

I very much doubt Love would play like Bosh did. Love is a better passer, a better rebounder, a better shooter, a better post player, and a bigger body in the paint who can cause trouble for your Roy Hibbert/David West of the world. Bosh when not given the ball, was essentially useless. He can't play without the ball. Love can because he can do multiple things fairly well and just the presence of him being in the paint or that three point line is enough to make him more valuable than Bosh. As with all talent bunched into one team, I expect James/Love's stats to decline but Irving IMO will probably see a stat line of 48% 22/8 with this team. James FG% is probably going to drop as well just because he's going to be in a new system whereas he was already comfortable in Miami. Love's FG% is going to skyrocket just based off the fact that he's going to be the #2-4 option considering they also have Waiters.

The lack of depth regarding Cleveland is probably going to have to improve. They have a great roster to work with, though. This is in terms of Love being traded for Wiggins+Bennett+picks. I also think they should consider trading Waiters. From what I've read, he's a locker room difficulty and not to mention he's going to NEED the ball. You can't share the ball between 4 legitimate All Star players. Not many NBA players at their best will defer to another.

PF: Love
C: Varejao
SF: James
PG: Kyrie
SG: Waiters

Bench: Shawn Marion (?), Ray Allen (?), James Jones, Mike Miller, Tristan Thompson, Brendan Haywood (Decent Center but I wouldn't be surprised to see a lineup of Tristan+Love occasionally so he's not getting much minutes), Joe Harris (very good shooter. He can play alongside Mike/James/Allen/Shawn? Idk but he's definitely big enough to play the SF). They can have a very good bench but they need some more size rather than shooters. Love+Kyrie+Mike+Allen+James Jones make up 5 of the best shooters in NBA.

lakerfan85
08-05-2014, 12:33 AM
Even if the Cavs get Love I don't see them dominating in the playoffs right away.. Irving and Love have never Played in the playoffs before..

shep33
08-05-2014, 12:43 AM
Even if the Cavs get Love I don't see them dominating in the playoffs right away.. Irving and Love have never Played in the playoffs before..

Yeah, but I'd say Love is easily the best PF in the East now. I think their lack of defense might be a big issue, especially if Andy V gets injured again

slashsnake
08-05-2014, 12:44 AM
But only two of those categories am I actually comparing him to Love in Defense and Rebounding. The other two Shooting and passing Love wipes the floor with TT.

It is just odd.. Rebounding to Love wipes the floor with him too.

It's like saying Harold Miner wasn't far off Jordan, he shot about the same percentage from downtown and had about the same assist to turnover ratio, and both were freakishly athletic.

Ok, but what point are you trying to prove? What else did Jordan do better than Miner but scoring and defense?

Maybe his stats are somewhat inflated due to his situation. Maybe they are worse because you don't exactly have to close out on Rubio or Brewer, so you can double him like crazy. That he has to create his own shot every single offensive posession, you aren't crashing down to defend someone else on that team and leaving him open.

Maybe he will score and board a little bit less, but become a much more effective version of himself with more open looks. I remember people saying that out of George Karls system, Melo would struggle offensively. Then he led the NBA in scoring in NY.


Love impacts the game.

Love on court, Twolves were a +356. They were about as dominant as the Thunder when he was out there.

Love off the court. Twolves were a -137. Almost Utah bad in the minutes he wasn't playing.



Tristan on the court, -228, off the court -42 No big difference there whether he was out there or not (he played more minutes than he sat, so the difference isn't as big as it appears).

slashsnake
08-05-2014, 12:52 AM
I personally want to see Wiggins and Bennett moved because it's best for their development. My problem is that I think the Cavs couldn't have handled the situation more poorly and I think they are chasing the wrong guy. If i'm a Cavs fan and i'm giving up these guys i'm going to want someone like Aldridge whose taken his team to the playoffs not an overrated K Love.


That is an interesting one. On one hand, I think Kobe had a great situation where he could come in, be a 2nd or 3rd option early on and learn from some great players. Of course the flip side is he was in bigger positions early on than some guys. He was on a team expected to win right away rather than a team wanting to take it's time building as he improved. He didn't have to be "the guy". He didn't have to be the one setting the tone for the team, making sure guys were staying out of trouble, etc. But if he got the ball sent his way in a game 7 when Shaq got doubled, he had to make that shot.

Personally, I wouldn't risk Lebron's prime on hoping that Bennett and Wiggins turn out in a hurry. I'd make the move, maybe you lose out and Wiggins becomes a big star, but Love is a top 10 talent in the NBA (don't care if you think he is overrated, he wins, his team doesn't when he rests, they are awful without him). Minny isn't 8-5 in games Love rests like Portland is without Aldridge. Minny loses by 9 a game without love (1-4). Night and day difference of the teams.

JustinTime
08-05-2014, 12:53 AM
It is just odd.. Rebounding to Love wipes the floor with him too.

It's like saying Harold Miner wasn't far off Jordan, he shot about the same percentage from downtown and had about the same assist to turnover ratio, and both were freakishly athletic.

Ok, but what point are you trying to prove? What else did Jordan do better than Miner but scoring and defense?

Maybe his stats are somewhat inflated due to his situation. Maybe they are worse because you don't exactly have to close out on Rubio or Brewer, so you can double him like crazy. That he has to create his own shot every single offensive posession, you aren't crashing down to defend someone else on that team and leaving him open.

Maybe he will score and board a little bit less, but become a much more effective version of himself with more open looks. I remember people saying that out of George Karls system, Melo would struggle offensively. Then he led the NBA in scoring in NY.


Love impacts the game.

Love on court, Twolves were a +356. They were about as dominant as the Thunder when he was out there.

Love off the court. Twolves were a -137. Almost Utah bad in the minutes he wasn't playing.



Tristan on the court, -228, off the court -42 No big difference there whether he was out there or not (he played more minutes than he sat, so the difference isn't as big as it appears).

The reason I'm saying the rebounding is close is because of the way Love played in Minnesota. He didn't have any capable rebounders around him or anyone fighting him for the ball outside of Pekovic on Cleveland he's going to fighting James, Thompson, and Varejo for rebounds. I wouldn't be surprised at all if his rebounding dropped to TT levels in Cleveland.

What i'm trying to say is that Love isn't going to be a superstar on Cleveland and that they should be looking for some one a lot better than him for the package they're offering. Realistically, Love is probably going to average 17-18 pts and 9-1o rbs that's not going to win you any championships. I said it before but the Cavs should be going after Aldridge not Love this is going to be a big mistake.

shep33
08-05-2014, 01:00 AM
I think this is going to be a really unique situation. Personally I think they roll through the East (if Rose is hurt), but I'm interested to see how their offense will work. Kyrie isn't very good off the ball, and Love is a very good iso player on the perimeter.

Defensively, they could have issues. Plus, Kyrie and Love haven't played a meaningful game in his NBA career yet. Although I think this doesn't matter until the Finals.

thechom80
08-05-2014, 01:00 AM
K Love is basically TT with a shot and better passing.

Can somebody please confirm that I'm seeing this correctly?

JustinTime
08-05-2014, 01:03 AM
Can somebody please confirm that I'm seeing this correctly?

That is correct I had to get your attention before I explained myself haha.

JustinTime
08-05-2014, 01:05 AM
I think this is going to be a really unique situation. Personally I think they roll through the East (if Rose is hurt), but I'm interested to see how their offense will work. Kyrie isn't very good off the ball, and Love is a very good iso player on the perimeter.

Defensively, they could have issues. Plus, Kyrie and Love haven't played a meaningful game in his NBA career yet. Although I think this doesn't matter until the Finals.

It would be funny if the heat beat them because they are still a solid team if Wade, Bosh and Deng step up.

Iron24th
08-05-2014, 01:25 AM
Why do NBA teams constantly try to help out LeBron? Does the NBA want this guy to win every year? Wiggins+Bennett for Love isn't enough especially if he's going to re-sign. The NBA gave the Cavs the first pick for exactly this kind of situation.

Cause you think love is worth more than wiggins+bennett?

You must not have seen love inefficient play and defense all these years

JLeBeau76
08-05-2014, 01:32 AM
The reason I'm saying the rebounding is close is because of the way Love played in Minnesota. He didn't have any capable rebounders around him or anyone fighting him for the ball outside of Pekovic on Cleveland he's going to fighting James, Thompson, and Varejo for rebounds. I wouldn't be surprised at all if his rebounding dropped to TT levels in Cleveland.

What i'm trying to say is that Love isn't going to be a superstar on Cleveland and that they should be looking for some one a lot better than him for the package they're offering. Realistically, Love is probably going to average 17-18 pts and 9-1o rbs that's not going to win you any championships. I said it before but the Cavs should be going after Aldridge not Love this is going to be a big mistake.

Umm...how do you know Love isn't going to be a superstar on Cle? LeBron takes so much attention that both Love and Irving is going to see the least resistance either have seen. Plus, as another poster said, look for Love to be more efficient.

Also, you, as well as others, keep referring to the package the Cavs are gIving up. The thing is that the Cavs are actually (if this trade happens) getting Love at a more favorable price. Remember, the Cavs offered Waiters, Bennett and the number one pick (ended up Wiggins) to MN before the draft but was told Love At that time didn't want the Cavs.

So since Wiggins basically still hasn't played a NBA game, its the same offer except another pick instead of Waiters.

slashsnake
08-05-2014, 01:37 AM
The reason I'm saying the rebounding is close is because of the way Love played in Minnesota. He didn't have any capable rebounders around him or anyone fighting him for the ball outside of Pekovic on Cleveland he's going to fighting James, Thompson, and Varejo for rebounds. I wouldn't be surprised at all if his rebounding dropped to TT levels in Cleveland.

What i'm trying to say is that Love isn't going to be a superstar on Cleveland and that they should be looking for some one a lot better than him for the package they're offering. Realistically, Love is probably going to average 17-18 pts and 9-1o rbs that's not going to win you any championships. I said it before but the Cavs should be going after Aldridge not Love this is going to be a big mistake.

First off, I don't think you will see a lineup of James, Thompson and Varejo on the court at the same time with Love.

Wasn't he averaging 11 early in his career with Al Jefferson beside him too? I mean he doesn't have anything close to that in Cleveland does he? He was averaging 14 boards per 36 minutes beside Jefferson in his 2nd year in the league. He's an elite rebounder. Rodman going to play beside the Admiral didn't take away his rebounding ability. This isn't Lamarcus Aldridge with 1 season in his first 8 where he averages over 9 boards a game. Put Oden next to him for half a year and he's a 7 board guy. Love is consistent.

And Pek is a heck of a board guy. He boards as much as Varejao or Tristan next to Love all game. Based on your rebounding assesment what is Tristan next to Pek? 5 a game? 6?

Not sure how your realistic 18-10 numbers come about, hopeful guess? And that's a lot better than Bosh ever gave Miami, so I guess Lebron never won anything there.


And I don't get Aldridge here. Is he even available? I didn't think he was. Sure, I think the Cavs should trade Wiggins and Bennett for Kevin Durant.

I'd love to see some historical support here. Like Pau going to LA and pairing with Bynum and Odom and his rebounds falling (they went up actually). Or Rodman going to SA with the Admiral and his dropping (he led the league actually) if I am going to buy into that claim there.

sixer04fan
08-05-2014, 01:40 AM
Cause you think love is worth more than wiggins+bennett?

You must not have seen love inefficient play and defense all these years

He was third in the entire league in Player Efficiency Rating last year behind on Lebron and Durant. But yeah, Love is inefficient.

Iron24th
08-05-2014, 01:53 AM
He was third in the entire league in Player Efficiency Rating last year behind on Lebron and Durant. But yeah, Love is inefficient.

You're probably not talking about team wins in terms of efficiency I guess

Oh and did you see the stat where love is showed as the frontcourt player who gives the most points in one on one defense? I guess not as well

FlashBolt
08-05-2014, 01:56 AM
You're probably not talking about team wins in terms of efficiency I guess

Oh and did you see the stat where love is showed as the frontcourt player who gives the most points in one on one defense? I guess not as well

What does team wins have anything to do with the efficiency of a player.. And I would love to see that stat. Basing all around defense via one on one defense in a team game? LOL... you're funny.

sixer04fan
08-05-2014, 02:05 AM
You're probably not talking about team wins in terms of efficiency I guess

Oh and did you see the stat where love is showed as the frontcourt player who gives the most points in one on one defense? I guess not as well

Nice save dude. "Team wins in terms of efficiency." Must be a new advanced stat. You're right, Love is inefficient even though statistically he was the 3rd most efficient player in the league last season.

If you want to talk wins though, he was also third in the entire league in Estimated Wins Added last season (also behind only Lebron and Durant). So I'm not sure where you were going with that.

Oh and did you see the part where I mentioned anything about defense? Oh me neither

Iron24th
08-05-2014, 02:09 AM
What does team wins have anything to do with the efficiency of a player.. And I would love to see that stat. Basing all around defense via one on one defense in a team game? LOL... you're funny.

Lol! So the teams wins stat has nothing to do with the players effociency? Last time I checked minny had a very solid team, so why love didn't even make the playoffs with them? Not even once in 6 years? So we never judge players on teams wins here?

Someone brought up that stat in the Lakers forum when love was rumored to wanting coming back to cali, go find it since you are the stats guys, watching boxscores and stats is great but watching games is better to understand how a player affect the game.

You are the funny guy

Iron24th
08-05-2014, 02:12 AM
Nice save dude. "Team wins in terms of efficiency." Must be a new advanced stat. You're right, Love is inefficient even though statistically he was the 3rd most efficient player in the league last season.

Oh and did you see the part where I mentioned anything about defense? Oh me neither

So a player is efficient when he's good on offense, but who care about defense and team wins?

You must have a ton of efficient players in philly

PurpleJesus
08-05-2014, 02:14 AM
Lol! So the teams wins stat has nothing to do with the players effociency? Last time I checked minny had a very solid team, so why love didn't even make the playoffs with them? Not even once in 6 years? So we never judge players on teams wins here?

Someone brought up that stat in the Lakers forum when love was rumored to wanting coming back to cali, go find it since you are the stats guys, watching boxscores and stats is great but watching games is better to understand how a player affect the game.

You are the funny guy

Correct, team wins has nothing to do with an individuals efficiency.

I always love this "player X doesnt win games," argument. Its true, Love has never made the playoffs...but, if he joins Lebron, and plays in the East, he will clearly make the playoffs then. Joining a better team, in a weaker conference, makes Love a better player than he is now apparently...because, playoffs.

Iron24th
08-05-2014, 02:17 AM
Correct, team wins has nothing to do with an individuals efficiency.

I always love this "player X doesnt win games," argument. Its true, Love has never made the playoffs...but, if he joins Lebron, and plays in the East, he will clearly make the playoffs then. Joining a better team, in a weaker conference, makes Love a better player than he is now apparently...because, playoffs.

No, it will just shows that he can't lead a decent team the postseason, and he's better becoming a sidekicks.

Stop trying to put words in someone's mouth, it will lead you nowhere my friend.

JustinTime
08-05-2014, 02:17 AM
First off, I don't think you will see a lineup of James, Thompson and Varejo on the court at the same time with Love.

Wasn't he averaging 11 early in his career with Al Jefferson beside him too? I mean he doesn't have anything close to that in Cleveland does he? He was averaging 14 boards per 36 minutes beside Jefferson in his 2nd year in the league. He's an elite rebounder. Rodman going to play beside the Admiral didn't take away his rebounding ability. This isn't Lamarcus Aldridge with 1 season in his first 8 where he averages over 9 boards a game. Put Oden next to him for half a year and he's a 7 board guy. Love is consistent.

And Pek is a heck of a board guy. He boards as much as Varejao or Tristan next to Love all game. Based on your rebounding assesment what is Tristan next to Pek? 5 a game? 6?

Not sure how your realistic 18-10 numbers come about, hopeful guess? And that's a lot better than Bosh ever gave Miami, so I guess Lebron never won anything there.


And I don't get Aldridge here. Is he even available? I didn't think he was. Sure, I think the Cavs should trade Wiggins and Bennett for Kevin Durant.

I'd love to see some historical support here. Like Pau going to LA and pairing with Bynum and Odom and his rebounds falling (they went up actually). Or Rodman going to SA with the Admiral and his dropping (he led the league actually) if I am going to buy into that claim there.


Tristan Thompson averaged more offensive rebounds than Love last year and Varejao was tied with him. Kevin Love is a good rebounder but he's not nearly as good as his T-wolves numbers show. On Cleveland guys like Lebron aren't going to run away from the ball the second a defensive rebound comes available like in Minnesota they're going to fight for it and his numbers are going to drop. There is no way K love continues to put up those rebound numbers with 3 other players excluding him who have each averaged 8+ rebounds in recent seasons. Thompson 9.2 rebs, Varejao 9.7 rebs, James 6.9 rebs but averaged 8 the year before, Love 12.5.

The reason I said Aldridge is because he has been rumored to be on the trade block for awhile and nothing has changed that I know of. Aldridge is a legit superstar who has shown that he's capable of dropping 40+ points in the playoffs on any given night.

PurpleJesus
08-05-2014, 02:19 AM
No, it will just shows that he can't lead a decent team the postseason, and he's better becoming a sidekicks.

Stop trying to put words in someone's mouth, it will lead you nowhere my friend.

Im not putting words in your mouth. You said Love is inefficient because of team wins. If he plays with Lebron, he will make the playoffs and have more wins. So in your mind, because he will have more wins, he is all of a sudden, more efficient.

PurpleJesus
08-05-2014, 02:22 AM
what if the Wolves played in the East, certainly they would have made the playoffs with Love on the roster. Does that all of a sudden make Love a better player, since he was playing in the weaker conference and would have more wins?
Ignore him playing with Lebron...if Love was on the Bulls last year, Indiana, etc...he ends up with more wins, and is in the playoffs. Why? because he has a better team, not because he was a better player simply because his team won more games.

Iron24th
08-05-2014, 02:24 AM
Im not putting words in your mouth. You said Love is inefficient because of team wins. If he plays with Lebron, he will make the playoffs and have more wins. So in your mind, because he will have more wins, he is all of a sudden, more efficient.

Lol stop talking to me if you ignore my answers, I told you why above, go check

sixer04fan
08-05-2014, 02:25 AM
So a player is efficient when he's good on offense, but who care about defense and team wins?

You must have a ton of efficient players in philly

Oh boy... You have no idea what efficiency means do you. Or wins added.

Last season Kevin Love was the third most efficient player in the league statistically. And added the third most wins to his team.

But good job changing the subject to Philly players and again back to defense because you have no idea what you're talking about or how to back up anything you're saying. Lol

PurpleJesus
08-05-2014, 02:28 AM
Lol stop talking to me if you ignore my answers, I told you why above, go check

sorry buddy, having better teammates, and thus getting more wins, has nothing to do with how good a player is.
Rule one of understanding team wins, and what it means to an individual....Basketball is a team game.

JustinTime
08-05-2014, 02:29 AM
what if the Wolves played in the East, certainly they would have made the playoffs with Love on the roster. Does that all of a sudden make Love a better player, since he was playing in the weaker conference and would have more wins?
Ignore him playing with Lebron...if Love was on the Bulls last year, Indiana, etc...he ends up with more wins, and is in the playoffs. Why? because he has a better team, not because he was a better player simply because his team won more games.

If he's on any of those teams his numbers aren't what they are and people wouldn't be saying he's as good as they do now.

PurpleJesus
08-05-2014, 02:32 AM
If he's on any of those teams his numbers aren't what they are and people wouldn't be saying he's as good as they do now.

I think his per game numbers would be just as good, or better. CHI was in need of a go to scorer, and Indi was kind of limited offensively too. Love would have put up some ridiculous numbers on those teams, and would have had nice defenses to cover up his biggest deficiencies as a player.

slashsnake
08-05-2014, 02:47 AM
Lol! So the teams wins stat has nothing to do with the players effociency? Last time I checked minny had a very solid team, so why love didn't even make the playoffs with them? Not even once in 6 years? So we never judge players on teams wins here?

Someone brought up that stat in the Lakers forum when love was rumored to wanting coming back to cali, go find it since you are the stats guys, watching boxscores and stats is great but watching games is better to understand how a player affect the game.

You are the funny guy

A "very solid team"???? really? This is a team that gave up 6 points more than their opponent on average per 48 minutes while Love wasn't on the court. A team that was 1-4 without him, losing by 9 a game.

They are a playoff team with him EASILY. Just they are awful when he is on the bench. I don't know what you expect him to do better while he has a towel over his neck on the sideline.

Please please please please don't tell me you think Minny is solid without love. You don't watch games if that is your belief. Plain and simple.

Pekovic, who didn't even become a full time starter till two years ago, and has missed about 10-20 games a year is BY FAR the 2nd best player on this team in the past 6 years. This "Solid Team" was so bad, that Michael Beasley was a viable #2 on it. It was so bad Darko Milicic finally found a starting spot in the NBA.

Seriously. Milicic, Beasley, Wesley Johnson and Luke Ridnour were the starters next to Love. How could he not make the playoffs with all that talent there. That is as solid of a starting 4 as you can see. You are a funny guy there, and you definitely don't watch basketball if that is the statement you are trying to make.

Minny without love

2013 outscored by 137 points
2012 outscored by 171 points
2011 outscored by 272 points
2010 outscored by 562 points
2009 outscored by 137 points


They weren't a good team. That's about the pace that the Lakers gave up points without Kobe. So if you want to say that LA had a "really solid" team out there last year. go for it.




Why do you feel that his ability to play should rest so heavily on the time he is on the sideline???

Should we be blaming Kobe for the lakers last year while he was off the court as well? To me, that part of it doesn't really matter but you are using it as your top argument here all of a sudden. I've watched a lot of basketball and I haven't seen a lot of games turned by players from the bench in games. But if you believe that is so key, lets hear why.

Iron24th
08-05-2014, 02:54 AM
Oh boy... You have no idea what efficiency means do you. Or wins added.

Last season Kevin Love was the third most efficient player in the league statistically. And added the third most wins to his team.

But good job changing the subject to Philly players and again back to defense because you have no idea what you're talking about or how to back up anything you're saying. Lol

Lol I would like you to show me this stat

The game should be played both ends of the court for a player to be considered efficient overall.

You can say what you want, love is a one dimensional player and is far from being efficient in defense and team wins.

You don't have a clue about a player efficiency, go check your pointless stats, it's better than watching games

PurpleJesus
08-05-2014, 02:54 AM
A "very solid team"???? really? This is a team that gave up 6 points more than their opponent on average per 48 minutes while Love wasn't on the court. A team that was 1-4 without him, losing by 9 a game.

They are a playoff team with him EASILY. Just they are awful when he is on the bench. I don't know what you expect him to do better while he has a towel over his neck on the sideline.

Please please please please don't tell me you think Minny is solid without love. You don't watch games if that is your belief. Plain and simple.

Pekovic, who didn't even become a full time starter till two years ago, and has missed about 10-20 games a year is BY FAR the 2nd best player on this team in the past 6 years. This "Solid Team" was so bad, that Michael Beasley was a viable #2 on it. It was so bad Darko Milicic finally found a starting spot in the NBA.

Seriously. Milicic, Beasley, Wesley Johnson and Luke Ridnour were the starters next to Love. How could he not make the playoffs with all that talent there. That is as solid of a starting 4 as you can see. You are a funny guy there, and you definitely don't watch basketball if that is the statement you are trying to make.

Minny without love

2013 outscored by 137 points
2012 outscored by 171 points
2011 outscored by 272 points
2010 outscored by 562 points
2009 outscored by 137 points


They weren't a good team. That's about the pace that the Lakers gave up points without Kobe. So if you want to say that LA had a "really solid" team out there last year. go for it.




Why do you feel that his ability to play should rest so heavily on the time he is on the sideline???

Should we be blaming Kobe for the lakers last year while he was off the court as well? To me, that part of it doesn't really matter but you are using it as your top argument here all of a sudden. I've watched a lot of basketball and I haven't seen a lot of games turned by players from the bench in games. But if you believe that is so key, lets hear why.

:clap:

Iron24th
08-05-2014, 02:59 AM
A "very solid team"???? really? This is a team that gave up 6 points more than their opponent on average per 48 minutes while Love wasn't on the court. A team that was 1-4 without him, losing by 9 a game.

They are a playoff team with him EASILY. Just they are awful when he is on the bench. I don't know what you expect him to do better while he has a towel over his neck on the sideline.

Please please please please don't tell me you think Minny is solid without love. You don't watch games if that is your belief. Plain and simple.

Pekovic, who didn't even become a full time starter till two years ago, and has missed about 10-20 games a year is BY FAR the 2nd best player on this team in the past 6 years. This "Solid Team" was so bad, that Michael Beasley was a viable #2 on it. It was so bad Darko Milicic finally found a starting spot in the NBA.

Seriously. Milicic, Beasley, Wesley Johnson and Luke Ridnour were the starters next to Love. How could he not make the playoffs with all that talent there. That is as solid of a starting 4 as you can see. You are a funny guy there, and you definitely don't watch basketball if that is the statement you are trying to make.

Minny without love

2013 outscored by 137 points
2012 outscored by 171 points
2011 outscored by 272 points
2010 outscored by 562 points
2009 outscored by 137 points


They weren't a good team. That's about the pace that the Lakers gave up points without Kobe. So if you want to say that LA had a "really solid" team out there last year. go for it.




Why do you feel that his ability to play should rest so heavily on the time he is on the sideline???

Should we be blaming Kobe for the lakers last year while he was off the court as well? To me, that part of it doesn't really matter but you are using it as your top argument here all of a sudden. I've watched a lot of basketball and I haven't seen a lot of games turned by players from the bench in games. But if you believe that is so key, lets hear why.

If love is the 3rd most efficient player of the nba according to love fans here why didn't he lead this team to the playoffs???

I have seen lebron, kobe, dwight lead lesser teams to the playoffs, funny huh

PurpleJesus
08-05-2014, 03:03 AM
If love is the 3rd most efficient player of the nba according to love fans here why didn't he lead this team to the playoffs???

I have seen lebron, kobe, dwight lead lesser teams to the playoffs, funny huh
Lebron, and Kobe in his prime were on a whole other level than Love, or almost all other players can ever reach. Very debatable that Dwight had a lesser team in Orlando, than Love has/had in Minnesota...but, Eastern Conference. Ya'know?

Iron24th
08-05-2014, 03:09 AM
Lebron, and Kobe in his prime were on a whole other level than Love, or almost all other players can ever reach. Very debatable that Dwight had a lesser team in Orlando, than Love has/had in Minnesota...but, Eastern Conference. Ya'know?

Orlando had 52, 59, 59, and 52 wins during the dwight era, even in the west if you remove some wins due to playing more western teams, it is probably still playoffs record material

PurpleJesus
08-05-2014, 03:14 AM
Orlando had 52, 59, 59, and 52 wins during the dwight era, even in the west if you remove some wins due to playing more western teams, it is probably still playoffs record material

well then, if you want to play that game, if the Wolves played in the east, they make the playoffs as their record is, but also have more wins.

Iron24th
08-05-2014, 03:33 AM
well then, if you want to play that game, if the Wolves played in the east, they make the playoffs as their record is, but also have more wins.

Fair enough for their last year record but surely not for their previous records in the love era

24, 15, 17, 26 and 31 wins...........

PhillyFaninLA
08-05-2014, 05:44 AM
Imagine 2017-18 season with MCW, shooting guard to be named later, Bennet, Saric, Noles, Embiid, and some nice bench pieces.

JustinTime
08-05-2014, 05:54 AM
Imagine 2017-18 season with MCW, shooting guard to be named later, Bennet, Saric, Noles, Embiid, and some nice bench pieces.

I'm still hoping Bennett goes to the T-wolves. The trade doesn't make sense to me why would the T-wolves give up a number 1 pick for a guy who will likely me an UFA in 1 year? If it's true I guess we know why this team hasn't made the playoffs in so long,

JLeBeau76
08-05-2014, 05:59 AM
I'm still hoping Bennett goes to the T-wolves. The trade doesn't make sense to me why would the T-wolves give up a number 1 pick for a guy who will likely me an UFA in 1 year? If it's true I guess we know why this team hasn't made the playoffs in so long,

Flip doesnt want to go into full rebuild mode. Bennett would be too.many youngsters for his taste.

slashsnake
08-05-2014, 07:28 AM
If love is the 3rd most efficient player of the nba according to love fans here why didn't he lead this team to the playoffs???

I have seen lebron, kobe, dwight lead lesser teams to the playoffs, funny huh


Really, any proof on that? I'm not calling Love as good as Lebron or Kobe.

I've showed you what Minnesota is without Love.

Minny last 5 years, outscored by 1279 points when Love isn't out there. Orlando last 5 without Dwight, outscored by 266 points. NOT EVEN CLOSE. So don't try to tell me they are "lesser teams" when they played MUCH better than Minnesota.

Wolves +6.3 points a game pace while Love is out on the floor. OKC thunder as a team, +6.3 Points per game last year

Wolves, -5.4 points a game when Love is on the bench. Orlando Magic as a team, -5.4 points a game last year.

That is what the Wolves were last year.

AGAIN, they were awful when he was on the bench, great when he was on the floor. Why should you feel that he needs to make his team win from his time on the bench?



Because bad teams lose games. Because of that 1-5 record when he was out. Because they didn't play him 48 minutes a game. Because that team sucks without him.

Kobe's 06 season was one of his best and he won what? 2 games more than Minnesota did last year in a weaker West, with a better team, and Kobe that year won 16 fewer games than his rookie year when he was a 7 point a game player. Doesn't mean he was worse that year, his team was.

Like I said, they are up big when he is playing. They lose big when he is on the bench. Watch the games and it's pretty clear.

It's why Pau Gasol had been in the NBA for over 6 years and had exactly zero playoff wins under his belt before going to LA. Maybe you felt he was the same, a guy who couldn't do anything, his record was proof. Worthless. Not efficient. Not going to help LA actually win games. Memphis averaged 34 wins a game with him there.

I thought Pau was a good player in a bad situation on a bad team who would be a great choice for a better team to grab.

Iron24th
08-05-2014, 08:16 AM
Really, any proof on that? I'm not calling Love as good as Lebron or Kobe.

I've showed you what Minnesota is without Love.

Minny last 5 years, outscored by 1279 points when Love isn't out there. Orlando last 5 without Dwight, outscored by 266 points. NOT EVEN CLOSE. So don't try to tell me they are "lesser teams" when they played MUCH better than Minnesota.

Wolves +6.3 points a game pace while Love is out on the floor. OKC thunder as a team, +6.3 Points per game last year

Wolves, -5.4 points a game when Love is on the bench. Orlando Magic as a team, -5.4 points a game last year.

That is what the Wolves were last year.

AGAIN, they were awful when he was on the bench, great when he was on the floor. Why should you feel that he needs to make his team win from his time on the bench?



Because bad teams lose games. Because of that 1-5 record when he was out. Because they didn't play him 48 minutes a game. Because that team sucks without him.

Kobe's 06 season was one of his best and he won what? 2 games more than Minnesota did last year in a weaker West, with a better team, and Kobe that year won 16 fewer games than his rookie year when he was a 7 point a game player. Doesn't mean he was worse that year, his team was.

Like I said, they are up big when he is playing. They lose big when he is on the bench. Watch the games and it's pretty clear.

It's why Pau Gasol had been in the NBA for over 6 years and had exactly zero playoff wins under his belt before going to LA. Maybe you felt he was the same, a guy who couldn't do anything, his record was proof. Worthless. Not efficient. Not going to help LA actually win games. Memphis averaged 34 wins a game with him there.

I thought Pau was a good player in a bad situation on a bad team who would be a great choice for a better team to grab.

Looool I stopped reading there, how can you be taken seriously after that?

beasted86
08-05-2014, 08:36 AM
Really, any proof on that? I'm not calling Love as good as Lebron or Kobe.

I've showed you what Minnesota is without Love.

Minny last 5 years, outscored by 1279 points when Love isn't out there. Orlando last 5 without Dwight, outscored by 266 points. NOT EVEN CLOSE. So don't try to tell me they are "lesser teams" when they played MUCH better than Minnesota.

Wolves +6.3 points a game pace while Love is out on the floor. OKC thunder as a team, +6.3 Points per game last year

Wolves, -5.4 points a game when Love is on the bench. Orlando Magic as a team, -5.4 points a game last year.

That is what the Wolves were last year.

AGAIN, they were awful when he was on the bench, great when he was on the floor. Why should you feel that he needs to make his team win from his time on the bench?



Because bad teams lose games. Because of that 1-5 record when he was out. Because they didn't play him 48 minutes a game. Because that team sucks without him.

Kobe's 06 season was one of his best and he won what? 2 games more than Minnesota did last year in a weaker West, with a better team, and Kobe that year won 16 fewer games than his rookie year when he was a 7 point a game player. Doesn't mean he was worse that year, his team was.

Like I said, they are up big when he is playing. They lose big when he is on the bench. Watch the games and it's pretty clear.

It's why Pau Gasol had been in the NBA for over 6 years and had exactly zero playoff wins under his belt before going to LA. Maybe you felt he was the same, a guy who couldn't do anything, his record was proof. Worthless. Not efficient. Not going to help LA actually win games. Memphis averaged 34 wins a game with him there.

I thought Pau was a good player in a bad situation on a bad team who would be a great choice for a better team to grab.

So are you telling us the Wolves lost all their games in the 12 minutes Love sat on the bench each game? I know that's not what you are saying, so in that case it doesn't matter what +/- says. His team lost games with him playing the majority of the game's minutes.

Rubio was +6.9 on, and -5.8 off... does that mean he's more important than Love? Pek was +8.0, is he an even bigger contributor than Love on the Wolves? Brewer had the same positive rating as Love despite being a mere role player. What do you make of that?

It's easy to throw out numbers to try and make his teammates look at fault, when he needs to share equal blame with all of them. They ALL didn't play good enough to win games. Most of those players need to develop defensive awareness and actually put effort on that end. Most of their players simply cared about hoping the other team missed, grabbing the rebound, and running as fast as they could to the other end to score.

Love is in for a major culture shock defensively what it will demand of him to play championship level defense.

koreancabbage
08-05-2014, 08:44 AM
If love is the 3rd most efficient player of the nba according to love fans here why didn't he lead this team to the playoffs???

I have seen lebron, kobe, dwight lead lesser teams to the playoffs, funny huh

because he had a bad team. players didn't mesh. That's the only think I can think of. Love can still be effective when he was on the floor but the rest of team did fit him. The rest of the team sucks, offensively and defensively.

Lebron, Kobe, and Dwight's teammates > Love's teammates lol. The best players outside of Love are pretty overrated in Pekovic, Rubio, Martin *barf* (i'd only want Pekovic but defensively, he hardly can get off the floor and be intimidating at the rim lol - they are all very flawed players)

MILLERHIGHLIFE
08-05-2014, 08:49 AM
Will Love be enough to keep LeBron happy? I know LeBron pointed fingers in Miami saying he was exhausted carrying the team. Irving been in the league three years and never played a full season of 82 games. So far he went 51,59,71. AV been know to miss lots of games with the injury bug as well. Seems like its up to Waiters and Thompson as back ups to try and keep LeBron happy. Time will tell.

WSU Tony
08-05-2014, 09:24 AM
K Love is basically TT with a shot and better passing.

Hahahhaha

Oefarmy2005
08-05-2014, 09:46 AM
I didn't say that though I said he can shoot and pass which makes him a much better player than TT. I was just suggesting that in terms of rebounding and defense they're similar. I've actually watched Love from time to time how many people here can say that? People don't seem to realize that his stats are greatly inflated on the T-wolves and he could end up as a 17 and 9rb guy on Cleveland with poor defense.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure KLove had a 30-30 game a couple of years back... And, Pek can rebound at a decent rate by the way, and so can Dieng.

Oefarmy2005
08-05-2014, 09:51 AM
It is just odd.. Rebounding to Love wipes the floor with him too.

It's like saying Harold Miner wasn't far off Jordan, he shot about the same percentage from downtown and had about the same assist to turnover ratio, and both were freakishly athletic.

Ok, but what point are you trying to prove? What else did Jordan do better than Miner but scoring and defense?

Maybe his stats are somewhat inflated due to his situation. Maybe they are worse because you don't exactly have to close out on Rubio or Brewer, so you can double him like crazy. That he has to create his own shot every single offensive posession, you aren't crashing down to defend someone else on that team and leaving him open.

Maybe he will score and board a little bit less, but become a much more effective version of himself with more open looks. I remember people saying that out of George Karls system, Melo would struggle offensively. Then he led the NBA in scoring in NY.


Love impacts the game.

Love on court, Twolves were a +356. They were about as dominant as the Thunder when he was out there.

Love off the court. Twolves were a -137. Almost Utah bad in the minutes he wasn't playing.



Tristan on the court, -228, off the court -42 No big difference there whether he was out there or not (he played more minutes than he sat, so the difference isn't as big as it appears).

Love is already top 5 efficiency, so if he becomes more efficient - that would be scary.

Oefarmy2005
08-05-2014, 09:54 AM
Cause you think love is worth more than wiggins+bennett?

You must not have seen love inefficient play and defense all these years

What?? Seriously, What?? And the defense thing has been beat to death - he is a league average defender.

Oefarmy2005
08-05-2014, 09:58 AM
You're probably not talking about team wins in terms of efficiency I guess

Oh and did you see the stat where love is showed as the frontcourt player who gives the most points in one on one defense? I guess not as well

At the rim, to any other player coming at the rim - not just his man. So, no he is not a shot blocker and the he constantly had to face an open SG(thanks to martin's defense). Love is an average defender - but no, he is not a shot blocker - a decent positional defender.

sixer04fan
08-05-2014, 10:26 AM
Lol I would like you to show me this stat

The game should be played both ends of the court for a player to be considered efficient overall.

You can say what you want, love is a one dimensional player and is far from being efficient in defense and team wins.

You don't have a clue about a player efficiency, go check your pointless stats, it's better than watching games

Wow. You're really going to play the ignorance card. Okay then.

You made the claim that Love is an inefficient player. I tell you the exact stat correlated to that which directly contradicts what you say (3rd in player efficiency rating last season, also 2nd in the league in NBA.com's efficiency metrics).

Then you say player efficiency is about team wins... That's not what player efficiency means, but ok... I give you estimated wins added, which again directly contradicts your statement (3rd in the league EWA last season). Also 6th in the league in WAR, and 11th in Real Plus-Minus. All stats that account for team wins contributed by an individual player.

Not to mention, those stats account for his defense. It's part of the equation. What did you think, he's a net-negative player with his defense? You know what, please don't answer that. I'm acknowledging he's not a very good defender. I never challenged you on that, but you keep bringing it up as if you're proving me wrong somehow. It's totally irrelevant. It's statistically proven that Love is still one of the most efficient players in the league and contributes greatly to winning in spite of his defense.

Then you say that I don't have a clue about player efficiency, and that my stats (my stats? these are unbiased, universal measurements of player production) are pointless after you have been so blatantly disproven about what you said.

Wow. Just wow.

WSU Tony
08-05-2014, 11:00 AM
You're probably not talking about team wins in terms of efficiency I guess

Oh and did you see the stat where love is showed as the frontcourt player who gives the most points in one on one defense? I guess not as well

You say love is an inefficient player then bring up team inefficiency? Every knock I see you guys posting is team related stats. Your not trading for the Wolves team, your trading for love individually.

Team inefficiency, lol, that's the worst individual player assessment I've heard in a long time.

PurpleJesus
08-05-2014, 02:11 PM
So are you telling us the Wolves lost all their games in the 12 minutes Love sat on the bench each game?

A lot of them, they did. I believe they lost the most single digit games in the NBA.

PurpleJesus
08-05-2014, 02:18 PM
Fair enough for their last year record but surely not for their previous records in the love era

24, 15, 17, 26 and 31 wins...........

you are ignoring a full season he missed due to injury, the lockout year (which they would have made the playoffs in the east with their record), and his rookie year. So three seasons. And Love didnt even really burst onto the scene until about his third year.

Iron24th
08-05-2014, 05:16 PM
you are ignoring a full season he missed due to injury, the lockout year (which they would have made the playoffs in the east with their record), and his rookie year. So three seasons. And Love didnt even really burst onto the scene until about his third year.

And you are ignoring 4 others seasons

PurpleJesus
08-05-2014, 05:17 PM
And you are ignoring 5 others seasons

No im not, because he has not played 8 seasons. lol.

Iron24th
08-05-2014, 05:22 PM
Wow. You're really going to play the ignorance card. Okay then.

You made the claim that Love is an inefficient player. I tell you the exact stat correlated to that which directly contradicts what you say (3rd in player efficiency rating last season, also 2nd in the league in NBA.com's efficiency metrics).

Then you say player efficiency is about team wins... That's not what player efficiency means, but ok... I give you estimated wins added, which again directly contradicts your statement (3rd in the league EWA last season). Also 6th in the league in WAR, and 11th in Real Plus-Minus. All stats that account for team wins contributed by an individual player.

Not to mention, those stats account for his defense. It's part of the equation. What did you think, he's a net-negative player with his defense? You know what, please don't answer that. I'm acknowledging he's not a very good defender. I never challenged you on that, but you keep bringing it up as if you're proving me wrong somehow. It's totally irrelevant. It's statistically proven that Love is still one of the most efficient players in the league and contributes greatly to winning in spite of his defense.

Then you say that I don't have a clue about player efficiency, and that my stats (my stats? these are unbiased, universal measurements of player production) are pointless after you have been so blatantly disproven about what you said.

Wow. Just wow.

How am I disproven? Just because you said so?

I keep saying Love affect the game in a bad way by his non existent defense, and he hasn't been exposed enough in minny for you, I think he will in front of the new look cavs spotlight.

Hawkeye15
08-05-2014, 05:24 PM
wait, how is Love being called inefficient? He is one of the top 5 most efficient players in the game by virtually any metric you can find.

kobe4thewinbang
08-05-2014, 05:25 PM
Looks good to me. Hopefully Minnesota gets their act together, as this will be the second big star they left feeling dejected and hopeless as a Timberwolf. Wiggins doesn't deserve that, fresh out the gate.

Iron24th
08-05-2014, 05:26 PM
No im not, because he has not played 8 seasons. lol.

Haha don't be in a hurry like that to answer, I edited it just a few minutes to correct it to "4 seasons" take a break dude

Hawkeye15
08-05-2014, 05:29 PM
Looks good to me. Hopefully Minnesota gets their act together, as this will be the second big star they left feeling dejected and hopeless as a Timberwolf. Wiggins doesn't deserve that, fresh out the gate.

as a Wolves fan, I am praying they finally figure out how to surround a potential star with some freakin help and not mess up yet again.

Iron24th
08-05-2014, 05:31 PM
as a Wolves fan, I am praying they finally figure out how to surround a potential star with some freakin help and not mess up yet again.

Honestly you have to wonder if love was really ready to stay in minny even if they would have been better, I think KG would have stayed but I have doubts about love.

PurpleJesus
08-05-2014, 05:33 PM
Haha don't be in a hurry like that to answer, I edited it just a few minutes to correct it to "4 seasons" take a break dude

he also hasnt been in the league 7 seasons...so...

also, im not ignoring any season, because I am not claiming he has made the playoffs. I am pointing out that you are pointing out low win totals in a lockout year, a rookie year, and a year he was injured for over half the season.

The Mender
08-05-2014, 05:34 PM
Kinda off topic but.... What's up with the Hellcrooner ban?

PurpleJesus
08-05-2014, 05:35 PM
Kinda off topic but.... What's up with the Hellcrooner ban?

not sure whats up with the recent one, but he seems to get banned a couple times every year.

Hawkeye15
08-05-2014, 05:36 PM
Honestly you have to wonder if love was really ready to stay in minny even if they would have been better, I think KG would have stayed but I have doubts about love.

had they not totally disrespected him, he would have stayed I think. The losing just added to the easy decision.

Iron24th
08-05-2014, 05:41 PM
he also hasnt been in the league 7 seasons...so...

also, im not ignoring any season, because I am not claiming he has made the playoffs. I am pointing out that you are pointing out low win totals in a lockout year, a rookie year, and a year he was injured for over half the season.

Why do you count 7?

4+2=6

PurpleJesus
08-05-2014, 05:45 PM
Why do you count 7?

4+2=6

cause you say I am ignoring 4 seasons, I say you are ignoring 3...rookie, lockout, injury.

4+3=7.

It doesnt matter now though, its getting too off topic. Point is, team wins has nothing to do with individual player ability.
I use the East as an example. If the Wolves played in the east, the make the playoffs 2 of Love's 6 seasons as their record is now, and have much more wins, because they are playing lower competition. Going to the East does not make Love a better player, but he certainly would have more wins.

Iron24th
08-05-2014, 06:01 PM
cause you say I am ignoring 4 seasons, I say you are ignoring 3...rookie, lockout, injury.

4+3=7.

It doesnt matter now though, its getting too off topic. Point is, team wins has nothing to do with individual player ability.
I use the East as an example. If the Wolves played in the east, the make the playoffs 2 of Love's 6 seasons as their record is now, and have much more wins, because they are playing lower competition. Going to the East does not make Love a better player, but he certainly would have more wins.

It's a misunderstood, I just counted out the injured year and last year,that's why I said 4+2=6

I get your point, but I still think love is too much saved for his lack of overall efficiency, talking about defense first.

sixer04fan
08-05-2014, 06:02 PM
wait, how is Love being called inefficient? He is one of the top 5 most efficient players in the game by virtually any metric you can find.

Don't bother...

slashsnake
08-05-2014, 07:47 PM
Looool I stopped reading there, how can you be taken seriously after that?

Are you saying they weren't? Every 48 minutes they played they'd be up an average of 6 points while he was out there. They played as a playoff quality team with Love, as a bottom of the lottery team without him. That was easy to see in their games. How many times did they come out, get a lead and lose it time and again when Love went to the bench.

Just because you don't LIKE the facts, doesn't mean they aren't true.

Confusious
08-05-2014, 09:09 PM
Cleveland is officially the favourite to come out of the East. I freaking love this.

NBA_Starter
08-05-2014, 09:56 PM
Wolves would be getting a nice haul there.

PurpleJesus
08-05-2014, 10:22 PM
Wolves would be getting a nice haul there.

if the rumors are true, they are getting more than what is usually traded for a star, but some people want to misconstrue that as unfair for Cleveland. Cleveland still walks away with the best player in the trade.

slashsnake
08-05-2014, 10:37 PM
So are you telling us the Wolves lost all their games in the 12 minutes Love sat on the bench each game? I know that's not what you are saying, so in that case it doesn't matter what +/- says. His team lost games with him playing the majority of the game's minutes.

Rubio was +6.9 on, and -5.8 off... does that mean he's more important than Love? Pek was +8.0, is he an even bigger contributor than Love on the Wolves? Brewer had the same positive rating as Love despite being a mere role player. What do you make of that?

It's easy to throw out numbers to try and make his teammates look at fault, when he needs to share equal blame with all of them. They ALL didn't play good enough to win games. Most of those players need to develop defensive awareness and actually put effort on that end. Most of their players simply cared about hoping the other team missed, grabbing the rebound, and running as fast as they could to the other end to score.

Love is in for a major culture shock defensively what it will demand of him to play championship level defense.

Not at all. But they lost enough of them to keep them out of the playoffs. His team lost the games with him playing a majority of the time. But they were MUCH worse without him than with him.

Rubio and Pek played with… LOVE. Really, the guys on the floor with him had nice plus minus numbers too? How surprising. I guess Mario Chalmers is an absolute stud because he has such a great plus minus and it has nothing to do with who he played with. Come on, use a little common sense here, unless you think Rubio is driving it, and supplanted CP3 as the most effective PG last year. Chalmers wasn’t the driving force in that lineup. Of course those guys plus minus without Love playing was a -2.2 per game. Funny how that great number just DISAPPEARS when Love isn’t part of the equation. And remember the first 3/4 of the season when Minny was playing for something Love's +- was even bigger.

I agree Love will need to change his D. Maybe he will like Pau shook his weak defender status when he got to LA. Maybe not.

beasted86
08-05-2014, 10:55 PM
Not at all. But they lost enough of them to keep them out of the playoffs. His team lost the games with him playing a majority of the time. But they were MUCH worse without him than with him.

Rubio and Pek played with… LOVE. Really, the guys on the floor with him had nice plus minus numbers too? How surprising. I guess Mario Chalmers is an absolute stud because he has such a great plus minus and it has nothing to do with who he played with. Come on, use a little common sense here, unless you think Rubio is driving it, and supplanted CP3 as the most effective PG last year. Chalmers wasn’t the driving force in that lineup. Of course those guys plus minus without Love playing was a -2.2 per game. Funny how that great number just DISAPPEARS when Love isn’t part of the equation. And remember the first 3/4 of the season when Minny was playing for something Love's +- was even bigger.

I agree Love will need to change his D. Maybe he will like Pau shook his weak defender status when he got to LA. Maybe not.

The top 4 units are obviously all going to have Rubio, Brewer, and Love... but again, since we are putting all our stock into the complete unquestionable validity of +/-....what do you make of the one top 10 most used unit the Wolves played without Rubio being -31? Again, does this mean Rubio makes Love the player he is and not the other way around, and is the true driving factor? Simple plus minus even over a large sample size isn't a very accurate barometer for player impact. I'm not even saying this is the case, but again, look at just the simplicity of the facts we have... From since Rubio's rookie season, Love suddenly took off offensively... when Rubio got injured, even if it was just an 18 game sample without him... Love was putrid offensively. Then the next year again with Rubio, his stats took off again. There might be more data suggesting Rubio makes Love the player he is than Love making Rubio who he is... and that Love should share any and all blame equally with his teammates.

BTW, Pau was, and still is a below average overall defender. He is a good post up one on one defender, which seems to be a trend among these stiffs with poor lateral speed... IE: Pau, Dirk, Love, etc. Being a solid post defender in a league full of bad isolation post up scorers isn't a good merit. These guys all 3 combined are poor on pick and roll, cross matches against smaller players, weakside shot blocking, and recovery closeouts to shooters. But I think Love is worst than the other 2 even in just those categories.

I think Love will improve defensively, but I don't think it will be enough. When I watched Bosh in the 2008 Olympics, he was extremely impressive defensively, and that's what made me buy into the idea of him being the guy Miami needs more than Stoudemire or Boozer or anyone else in 2010 free agency from since then, even while LeBron was just a pipe dream. Love on the other hand, wasn't nearly as convincing in 2012 Olympics that even with good teammates and coaching could step up to the challenge defensively. He's just simply not good in this area.... I almost just want to say "period" that he will never be good based on what he's shown so far.

dnl123
08-05-2014, 11:14 PM
Are we really debating how good Kevin Love is? Is this really how stupid some NBA fans are?

FlashBolt
08-05-2014, 11:38 PM
Are we really debating how good Kevin Love is? Is this really how stupid some NBA fans are?

The people making fun of Love are just the haters who also hate James and is blindly accusing him of not being one of the best players if not a top 5. He's hands down a top 5. He's ranked highly in WS and PER <---- a metric that also has LeBron and Durant ahead of the pack.. (Must mean something considering they are 1a, 1b). The only PF I wouldn't trade for Kevin Love is probably Anthony Davis - and that means something considering what Anthony Davis has already done in two seasons. But other than that, you are just blindly insinuating that Love sucks because he hasn't made it to the playoffs.

dnl123
08-05-2014, 11:53 PM
I'm not insinuating that at all man! I am a Wolves fan who has actually watched Love play. He's a top 5 offensive player in the league right now and the stats say he was only behind Durant and Lebron last year in offensive effectiveness. I agree with you 100%. I wouldn't trade Davis for him either! That dude is coming!

Confusious
08-06-2014, 12:51 AM
if the rumors are true, they are getting more than what is usually traded for a star, but some people want to misconstrue that as unfair for Cleveland. Cleveland still walks away with the best player in the trade.
Sometimes you have to give a lot to get a lot back. We're giving away a kid with superstar potential (keyword here being POTENTIAL) and getting back a sure-fire SUPERSTAR. That is only just entering his prime.

I don't care what other people think or say. Cleveland wins this trade a thousand times over. Minnesota does make well out of this too. And that's good for them too.

dnl123
08-06-2014, 01:06 AM
Sometimes you have to give a lot to get a lot back. We're giving away a kid with superstar potential (keyword here being POTENTIAL) and getting back a sure-fire SUPERSTAR. That is only just entering his prime.

I don't care what other people think or say. Cleveland wins this trade a thousand times over. Minnesota does make well out of this too. And that's good for them too.

I agree, I feel like people are so dang cynical nowadays that there can't be a trade that is good for both teams. I think this particular case is a good example that it can happen.

NBA-GMaster
08-06-2014, 06:07 AM
3 team trade
Love, Embiid and Barea to Cavs
Wiggins, Bennett, Martin and Haywood to Sixers
Young, Saric, Thompson plus 3 1st rd picks from Cavs and 1st rd pick from Philly to Wolves..

Trueblue2
08-06-2014, 06:34 AM
3 team trade
Love, Embiid and Barea to Cavs
Wiggins, Bennett, Martin and Haywood to Sixers
Young, Saric, Thompson plus 3 1st rd picks from Cavs and 1st rd pick from Philly to Wolves..

Serious question, on a scale of one to Lamar Odom how much crack have you smoked today?

NBA-GMaster
08-06-2014, 06:41 AM
Serious question, on a scale of one to Lamar Odom how much crack have you smoked today?

One Karda-sand.. Lol!!

JustinTime
08-06-2014, 06:43 AM
3 team trade
Love, Embiid and Barea to Cavs
Wiggins, Bennett, Martin and Haywood to Sixers
Young, Saric, Thompson plus 3 1st rd picks from Cavs and 1st rd pick from Philly to Wolves..

That's an awful trade for the Wolves. I got a better one

Cleveland Love, Barea, Hansbrough
Minnesota Derozan, Amir Johnson, Caboclo, Toronto 1st, 2 Cleveland firsts
Toronto Wiggins, Bennett, Thompson, Haywood

2-ONE-5
08-06-2014, 08:55 AM
3 team trade
Love, Embiid and Barea to Cavs
Wiggins, Bennett, Martin and Haywood to Sixers
Young, Saric, Thompson plus 3 1st rd picks from Cavs and 1st rd pick from Philly to Wolves..

1000x NO for the Sixers.

More-Than-Most
08-06-2014, 09:13 AM
1000x NO for the Sixers.

So we give up Embid and Saric and Young and a first round pick for Wiggins/Bennett/Martin and Haywood? Yea I will pass on that everytime. I would rather keep Embid and saric and our first round pick and trade young for something nomatter how much potential wiggins has... A healthy Embid has as much or more potential to be honest.

FlashBolt
08-06-2014, 09:27 AM
Sixers have cap space, an exciting frontcourt that may be the twin tower of our generation, and a young PG in MCW who put up 17/6/6 and 2 steals per game.. Things are looking good for them. Melo should have came to Sixers. They could have easily gotten LeBron/Melo if they got rid of Thaddeus.

More-Than-Most
08-06-2014, 09:54 AM
Sixers have cap space, an exciting frontcourt that may be the twin tower of our generation, and a young PG in MCW who put up 17/6/6 and 2 steals per game.. Things are looking good for them. Melo should have came to Sixers. They could have easily gotten LeBron/Melo if they got rid of Thaddeus.

I dont want Melo... Pass.

2-ONE-5
08-06-2014, 10:11 AM
yea no interest in Melo or James honestly. We are building our own thing no need to try to sign to 30 year olds who have a relatively short window to win at this point and pairing either of them up with that much youth wouldnt make us a title contender anyway.

JLeBeau76
08-06-2014, 12:54 PM
Sixers have cap space, an exciting frontcourt that may be the twin tower of our generation, and a young PG in MCW who put up 17/6/6 and 2 steals per game.. Things are looking good for them. Melo should have came to Sixers. They could have easily gotten LeBron/Melo if they got rid of Thaddeus.

Lets be honest here. Why I agree the future is looking good for Philly if their investments pan out, to say you could have "easily" got LeBron/Melo is a laughable comment.

You may have been able to easily AFFORD them but offering money and them taking it is two different things.

bucketss
08-06-2014, 01:14 PM
1000x NO for the Sixers.

wasn't the whole reason for the epic tank job to get wiggins?

2-ONE-5
08-06-2014, 01:35 PM
wasn't the whole reason for the epic tank job to get wiggins?

not at all. was to get anyone of those top 3 (Parker for me personally) and we ended up with the most talented of the 3. Of course health pending for Embiid all his medicals seem to suggest he will be just fine once he recovers.

joeyc77
08-06-2014, 01:48 PM
wasn't the whole reason for the epic tank job to get wiggins?

The Sixers are not tanking. They are rebuilding at not rushing the process by overpaying for average to below average players.

FlashBolt
08-06-2014, 03:22 PM
Lets be honest here. Why I agree the future is looking good for Philly if their investments pan out, to say you could have "easily" got LeBron/Melo is a laughable comment.

You may have been able to easily AFFORD them but offering money and them taking it is two different things.

Easily as in cap space. Of course, you'd have to convince them but if Noel/Embiid play 80% of what we expect them to (twin towers 20/10 players with great defense), I see no reason why a superstar wouldn't be enticed to play for the Sixers. Great basketball city with great promise.

NBA_Starter
08-06-2014, 08:56 PM
It is just a matter of time, I will be happy when the schedule is released so we have something new to talk about.