PDA

View Full Version : PSD's Official #16 Player of All Time



ManRam
08-01-2014, 11:41 AM
Voting for #15 has concluded and PSD's Official #15 NBA Player of all time is....

Julius Erving

24.2 PPG / 8.5 RPG / 4.0 APG / .506 FG / 23.6 PER / 181.1 WS

Achievements:

16 time All-Star (5x ABA)
1983 NBA Champion
2x ABA Champion
1x MVP, 3x ABA MVP
4-Time 1st-Team All-ABA/ 5-Time 1st-Team All-NBA


Voting

Julius Erving 14
Dwyane Wade 6
David Robinson 6
Dirk Nowitzki 3
Elgin Baylor 2
Charles Barkley 2
Karl Malone 2
Kevin Garnett 1
Bob Pettit 1
Scottie Pippen 0
John Stockton 0
Rick Barry 0
Clyde Drexler 0
Clyde Frazier 0
George Mikan 0
Isiah Thomas 0
Kevin McHale 0
John Havlicek 0
Chris Paul 0
George Gervin 0

The List:

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?871758-PSD-s-Top-50-List-of-the-Greatest-NBA-Players-of-All-Time&p=28837457#post28837457

Please vote, explain and nominate...per the usual.

ManRam
08-01-2014, 11:43 AM
Sorry, I was in a rush this morning and didn't sift through the last thread for nominations. I will add them next time. Poll's open for three days again to get us to Monday.

DreamShaker
08-01-2014, 12:22 PM
D-Rob basically had no flaws as a basketball player besides his mentality. Even so, dude had an amazing career. MVP, DPOY, multi-time All-Star, 2 time champion, scoring title, killer stats. He's got my vote.

DreamShaker
08-01-2014, 12:23 PM
Sorry, I was in a rush this morning and didn't sift through the last thread for nominations. I will add them next time. Poll's open for three days again to get us to Monday.

I forgive you.

Chronz
08-01-2014, 12:36 PM
Time to vote for one of the bigs I think.

Chuck (technically small but he played huge) , Pettit, D-Rob, Dirk or KG.


Wade and Elgin (half his career at least) should both be in the conversation, injuries muddled their careers.

mightybosstone
08-01-2014, 12:39 PM
For me, this is probably between Barkley, Robinson and Garnett. Dirk and Wade have a decent case here, but I wouldn't rank them ahead of the other three guys just yet. I want to see some legitimate debate before voting as this is probably the most difficult vote I've had to make thus far.

DreamShaker
08-01-2014, 12:42 PM
For me, this is probably between Barkley, Robinson and Garnett. Dirk and Wade have a decent case here, but I wouldn't rank them ahead of the other three guys just yet. I want to see some legitimate debate before voting as this is probably the most difficult vote I've had to make thus far.

Robinson was the best mix of offense and defense, had the best stats, and had the best team success. Now if I had to win one playoff game or series, I'm rolling with prime Barkley.

Chronz
08-01-2014, 01:01 PM
Robinson was the best mix of offense and defense, had the best stats, and had the best team success. Now if I had to win one playoff game or series, I'm rolling with prime Barkley.
Remember this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyFVKd2Nw-s


Does he have the best mix come playoff time? Does longevity hold him back abit or did he play at a dominant level long enough to overlook that?

Lucky.
08-01-2014, 01:02 PM
Vote: David Robinson
Nominate: Patrick Ewing and/or Bill Walton

Chronz
08-01-2014, 01:30 PM
Honestly speaking, if we focus solely on the regular season, D-Rob is basically LeBron James on the Cavs. The kind of overwhelming talent that could carry absolutely abysmal casts to insane turnarounds. I would argue hes probably more influential considering his elite defense. He played at this level for about 7 years before succumbing to injury. Those are his most legacy shaping seasons, the wins came in the Duncan era, and we should focus on that as well, but there are 2 clear chapters of his career, pre and post back problems.


The biggest problem with D-Rob isn't just that he declined, its that he got outplayed by the opposing teams post player in 5 successive post seasons, including by 2 of the very PF's still on this list. These weren't just any years either, these were his BEST years.

Hawkeye15
08-01-2014, 01:31 PM
D-Rob has to go here

YAALREADYKNO
08-01-2014, 01:50 PM
Dirk

Chronz
08-01-2014, 02:27 PM
D-Rob has to go here

Breakdown the best years by all those involved, how many of D-Rob's seasons stand tall?

THE MTL
08-01-2014, 02:28 PM
It has to be David Robinson. He scored 71pts in the modern era of basketball in an era of great centers.

sixers247
08-01-2014, 02:47 PM
After looking at this i don't think D Rob is clear cut. Robinson played better defense but that is it.

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/b/charles_barkley_vs_david_robinson.htm

WaDe03
08-01-2014, 03:08 PM
Well Robinson will win this one so next thread I think Wade. If I want to win a championship and can take 1 of the remaining players at their best I'm going to have to go with Wade. He's just a straight up winner, always does whats right for the team and whatever he can do to win. As stated in the previous thread his per 100 possession numbers are ridiculous for his best season and I have never seen anything like his 06 finals performance. (down 0-2, down 13 with 6 minutes left in game 3 and just willed his team to victory and the rest is history). ESPN has it ranked 1st all-time as well.

Wades averages for that finals series-34.7ppg-7.8rpg-3.8apg-2.7spg-1.0bpg-47%fg-33.8PER(highest ever in a finals series)

He's a 3 time champion

Still believe he should've won an MVP in 08-09 but can't knock them for giving it to LeBron since his team had the better record. Averaged 30ppg-5rpg-7.5apg-2.2spg-1.3bpg-49%fg-30.5PER. If I'm correct him returning to the Heat that year improved their record by a total of 28 games which is the most all-time. I love haslem to death but there's only so much you can do when Haslem and a washed up J.O'Neal are your next best players and winning 43 games after the season they just had is amazing.

Many believe him to be the 3rd best shooting guard of all-time and I personally would have put him ahead of West and Erving but it doesn't bother me they were picked before him.

Tim Grover has said he's the closest thing to MJ based on them both just playing off of instinct all the time and both having that killer mentality.(NOT saying he's the second best player of all-time just throwing in a little comparison)

As I said Robinson will win this one but if you want to win a championship and you can take any of these remaining guys at their best who do you you pick? Robinson, Barkley, Wade, Dirk, Malone, or KG?

I may be biased but I'm going with Wade 10 times out of 10.

YAALREADYKNO
08-01-2014, 03:16 PM
After looking at this i don't think D Rob is clear cut. Robinson played better defense but that is it.

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/b/charles_barkley_vs_david_robinson.htm


no he is clearly not the clear cut favorite but people on here tend to focus on the regular season and act like the playoffs dont count

KnicksorBust
08-01-2014, 03:20 PM
For me, this is probably between Barkley, Robinson and Garnett. Dirk and Wade have a decent case here, but I wouldn't rank them ahead of the other three guys just yet. I want to see some legitimate debate before voting as this is probably the most difficult vote I've had to make thus far.


D-Rob has to go here

Bob Pettit?

Pettit - 2x League MVP
D-Rob - League MVP

Pettit - 10x All-NBA 1st Team, 1x All-NBA 2nd team
D-Rob - 4x All-NBA 1st Team, 2x All-NBA 2nd team, 4x All-NBA 3rd Team

Pettit - 11x All-Star
D-Rob - 10x All-Star

Pettit - 2x Scoring Champion
D-Rob - 1x Scoring Champion

Pettit - 1x NBA Champion (would have been finals MVP, his one ring is more impressive than D-Rob's 2)
D-Rob - 2x NBA Champion (role player)

Advanced Stats:
Pettit - PER 25.3
D-Rob - PER 26.2

I'm sorry that 0.9 advantage in PER is not nearly enough to outweigh the landslide of other evidence that all supports Bob Pettit who dominated his ERA and won as the man carrying the Hawks with a legendary 50 point performance to clinch Game 6 against the Celtics.

YAALREADYKNO
08-01-2014, 03:22 PM
For me, this is probably between Barkley, Robinson and Garnett. Dirk and Wade have a decent case here, but I wouldn't rank them ahead of the other three guys just yet. I want to see some legitimate debate before voting as this is probably the most difficult vote I've had to make thus far.

how come dirk and wade cant be up there with those guys? especially since wade and dirk are better playoff performers than those guys

Shlumpledink
08-01-2014, 03:35 PM
Give me D-Rob, he could play in any generation and be dominant

KnicksorBust
08-01-2014, 03:51 PM
Give me D-Rob, he could play in any generation and be dominant

Do me a favor and give me the one season Robinson dominated in the playoffs.

valade16
08-01-2014, 04:39 PM
Bob Pettit?

Pettit - 2x League MVP
D-Rob - League MVP

Pettit - 10x All-NBA 1st Team, 1x All-NBA 2nd team
D-Rob - 4x All-NBA 1st Team, 2x All-NBA 2nd team, 4x All-NBA 3rd Team

Pettit - 11x All-Star
D-Rob - 10x All-Star

Pettit - 2x Scoring Champion
D-Rob - 1x Scoring Champion

Pettit - 1x NBA Champion (would have been finals MVP, his one ring is more impressive than D-Rob's 2)
D-Rob - 2x NBA Champion (role player)

Advanced Stats:
Pettit - PER 25.3
D-Rob - PER 26.2

I'm sorry that 0.9 advantage in PER is not nearly enough to outweigh the landslide of other evidence that all supports Bob Pettit who dominated his ERA and won as the man carrying the Hawks with a legendary 50 point performance to clinch Game 6 against the Celtics.

Pettit dominated an era devoid of big men. David Robinson played in the absolute best era for Centers in NBA History. To be able to accrue 4 1st teams when Hakeem, Patrick, Shaq, Zo were around is more impressive than accumulating 10 1st when nobody was around.

Seriously, who else in that era was even 1st team worthy at PF?

Bruno
08-01-2014, 05:03 PM
I took Charles.

Im a bit critical of Robinson. he has a fine argument, but I'd like him 2-3 spots lower than #16.

I take KG in a heartbeat until I remember the fact that KGs line falls off dramatically in the post-season.

I like Charles then Dirk. Id personally take KG and Robinson after Charles and Dirk. hell, i kind of want to change my vote to dirk now.

KnicksorBust
08-01-2014, 05:12 PM
Pettit dominated an era devoid of big men. David Robinson played in the absolute best era for Centers in NBA History. To be able to accrue 4 1st teams when Hakeem, Patrick, Shaq, Zo were around is more impressive than accumulating 10 1st when nobody was around.

Seriously, who else in that era was even 1st team worthy at PF?

First of all, he made the all-nba 1st team playing as a PF and a C. He competed with Hall of Famers and NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team players like Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Elgin Baylor, Jerry Lucas, John Havlicek, Willis Reed, Dolph Schayes, Paul Arizin, and Neil Johnston. That's more Hall of Famers than Hakeem/Pat/Shaq/Zo.

Second of all, the argument of "this era was great for bigs" or "this era was weak for bigs" is such garbage. You play against the best players in the world at the given time and if you dominate and are considered one of the 5 best players in the world... for 10 seasons in a row... that's damn impressive and should definitely warrant more consideration for the 16th spot. That's ignoring his 2 league MVPs and epic championship win.

KnicksorBust
08-01-2014, 05:16 PM
For me, this is probably between Barkley, Robinson and Garnett. Dirk and Wade have a decent case here, but I wouldn't rank them ahead of the other three guys just yet. I want to see some legitimate debate before voting as this is probably the most difficult vote I've had to make thus far.


I took Charles.

Im a bit critical of Robinson. he has a fine argument, but I'd like him 2-3 spots lower than #16.

I take KG in a heartbeat until I remember the fact that KGs line falls off dramatically in the post-season.

I like Charles then Dirk. Id personally take KG and Robinson after Charles and Dirk. hell, i kind of want to change my vote to dirk now.

I'd love to hear an argument for Dirk over Barkley that wouldn't mirror the exact argument for why Bob Pettit should be the actual winner of the vote.

Ebbs
08-01-2014, 05:16 PM
Dirk should be going now but fine I'll stay with Drob

DR_1
08-01-2014, 05:36 PM
D-Rob then Dirk I think atm. How the heck is Wade getting votes? Come on people you are giving better players the shaft.

Bruno
08-01-2014, 05:59 PM
I'd love to hear an argument for Dirk over Barkley that wouldn't mirror the exact argument for why Bob Pettit should be the actual winner of the vote.

Dirk peaked out slightly higher than Pettit and played much longer. Pettits first season was at 22 and his last was at 32.

KnicksorBust
08-01-2014, 08:27 PM
I'd love to hear an argument for Dirk over Barkley that wouldn't mirror the exact argument for why Bob Pettit should be the actual winner of the vote.

Dirk peaked out slightly higher than Pettit and played much longer. Pettits first season was at 22 and his last was at 32.

Not my challenge.

Chronz
08-02-2014, 02:29 AM
Id rather reward Pettit but I understand why people feel a freak like D-Rob was underutilized in SA for most of his prime. Still, I feel shameful conceding to such an underachiever.

Might as well vote for Karl Malone next, even though winners like Reed, Hondo and Pettit get the shaft

Chronz
08-02-2014, 02:31 AM
Not my challenge.
Pettit played in a semi-segregated league, had he entered even 5 years later, it would have made a huge difference. The league improved rapidly during the 60's and Pettit won his only title with Russ limping around. Still a great victory but not exactly legacy stamping like Wilt in 67 .

KnicksorBust
08-02-2014, 09:45 AM
Pettit played in a semi-segregated league, had he entered even 5 years later, it would have made a huge difference. The league improved rapidly during the 60's and Pettit won his only title with Russ limping around. Still a great victory but not exactly legacy stamping like Wilt in 67 .

Not my challenge either.

Chronz
08-02-2014, 10:54 AM
ur tripping me out now

NYKalltheway
08-03-2014, 06:57 AM
I believe the list will become even uglier once we hit #20 seeing that people want to vote for Dirk and Wade

NYKalltheway
08-03-2014, 07:10 AM
the argument of "this era was great for bigs" or "this era was weak for bigs" is such garbage. You play against the best players in the world at the given time and if you dominate and are considered one of the 5 best players in the world... for 10 seasons in a row... that's damn impressive and should definitely warrant more consideration for the 16th spot. That's ignoring his 2 league MVPs and epic championship win.

1) No it's not, it's actually the most legitimate argument in the case of compiling an all time list. It's partly why Russell is not the GOAT and you know it.
2) No you don't play against the best players in the world at any given time. Foreigners did not enter the league till the mid 80s or something, people from ex Soviet and ex Yugo countries barely participated for political reasons mostly and I can name you a bunch of older players that you've never heard of who played in the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s that are heads & shoulders better than a few names on the current voting list.
A comment out of arrogance and ignorance combined :)

3) Who are you referring to about being a top 5 player in the world for 10 straight seasons? Bob Petit? I agree with you on him, he should be regarded as a top 16-20 imo. He's better than at least 2 players already in the top 15 so he should be voted as some point .

4) As for D Rob, great player. Doubt he's a #16 player. Maybe if the list was for players since 1970 which seems to be the case here where the late 1990s and the 2000s have way more value than any other period of time.

todu82
08-03-2014, 12:44 PM
Karl Malone

KnicksorBust
08-03-2014, 12:58 PM
1) No it's not, it's actually the most legitimate argument in the case of compiling an all time list. It's partly why Russell is not the GOAT and you know it.

The most legitimate argument would be built on facts not a subjective belief about the perceived strength or weakness of an era.


2) No you don't play against the best players in the world at any given time. Foreigners did not enter the league till the mid 80s or something, people from ex Soviet and ex Yugo countries barely participated for political reasons mostly and I can name you a bunch of older players that you've never heard of who played in the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s that are heads & shoulders better than a few names on the current voting list.

As tempting as it is to hear you list of foreign players from the 30s and 40s... I will instead ask a question:

If these foreign players were "head & shoulders" better than the NBA players, then how did the United States dominate the Summer Olympics every four years using college amateur players?

There may have been a handful of players that were talented enough to play in the greatest basketball league in the world but only recently in the last 15 years has the international competition reached our level.


A comment out of arrogance and ignorance combined :)

Baiting with a smile. :)


3) Who are you referring to about being a top 5 player in the world for 10 straight seasons? Bob Petit? I agree with you on him, he should be regarded as a top 16-20 imo. He's better than at least 2 players already in the top 15 so he should be voted as some point .

Agreed.


4) As for D Rob, great player. Doubt he's a #16 player. Maybe if the list was for players since 1970 which seems to be the case here where the late 1990s and the 2000s have way more value than any other period of time.

Agreed.

Raidaz4Life
08-03-2014, 02:06 PM
Still showing love to Karl on this one. His advanced stats combined with his longevity are insane to only be #16 all time.

mightybosstone
08-03-2014, 02:11 PM
Still showing love to Karl on this one. His advanced stats combined with his longevity are insane to only be #16 all time.

Barkley and Robinson's advanced stats are better, and their postseason numbers crush Malone's. I don't know how anyone could pick Malone over those two.

LTBaByyy
08-03-2014, 06:08 PM
Dirk continues to be underrated

KnicksorBust
08-03-2014, 06:20 PM
Dirk continues to be underrated

Prove it.

Raidaz4Life
08-03-2014, 06:25 PM
Barkley and Robinson's advanced stats are better, and their postseason numbers crush Malone's. I don't know how anyone could pick Malone over those two.

I just said longevity. I have stated before that Malone might have the best longevity of anyone not named Kareem. I value that more than postseason success which I attribute to team greatness more so than individual greatness.


Malone seasons over 20 PER: 16

Barkley seasons over 20 PER: 14

Robinson seasons over 20 PER: 13 (if you count his 6 game season)


Malone seasons over 15 WS: 9

Barkley seasons over 15 WS: 3

Robinson seasons over 15 WS: 5

Now keep in mind this is a personal preference here at this point. I feel all 3 are extremely close here so I wouldn't fault anyone for preferring one over the other. That being said I feel they should be the next 3 taken off the board and that all 3 should have gone higher than the last 2 chosen.

ricky recon
08-03-2014, 06:49 PM
I just think when you look at longevity, peak, playoff performance, accolades, dominance, and the fact he isn't close to being done, you can't go wrong with Dirk. The thing that hurts him the most is this inaccurate perception about him being a poor defender which was only true when he first entered the league. The guy is as dominant on offense as anyone has ever been, and has taken over the biggest of games against the best players in the world standing there, helpless against him.

KnicksorBust
08-03-2014, 07:13 PM
Barkley and Robinson's advanced stats are better, and their postseason numbers crush Malone's. I don't know how anyone could pick Malone over those two.

I just said longevity. I have stated before that Malone might have the best longevity of anyone not named Kareem. I value that more than postseason success which I attribute to team greatness more so than individual greatness.


Malone seasons over 20 PER: 16

Barkley seasons over 20 PER: 14

Robinson seasons over 20 PER: 13 (if you count his 6 game season)


Malone seasons over 15 WS: 9

Barkley seasons over 15 WS: 3

Robinson seasons over 15 WS: 5

Now keep in mind this is a personal preference here at this point. I feel all 3 are extremely close here so I wouldn't fault anyone for preferring one over the other. That being said I feel they should be the next 3 taken off the board and that all 3 should have gone higher than the last 2 chosen.

Why do you think Malone's production was worse in the postseason?

KnicksorBust
08-03-2014, 07:18 PM
I just think when you look at longevity, peak, playoff performance, accolades, dominance, and the fact he isn't close to being done, you can't go wrong with Dirk. The thing that hurts him the most is this inaccurate perception about him being a poor defender which was only true when he first entered the league. The guy is as dominant on offense as anyone has ever been, and has taken over the biggest of games against the best players in the world standing there, helpless against him.

A guy who is not in the top 20 all-time for ppg or even in the top 40 for ts% is as dominant in offense as anyone???? I dont believe u posted that without an empty shot glass in front of you and a picture of Dirk riding Mark Cuban with a cowboy hat on your screen.

Chronz
08-04-2014, 12:02 AM
A guy who is not in the top 20 all-time for ppg or even in the top 40 for ts% is as dominant in offense as anyone???? I dont believe u posted that without an empty shot glass in front of you and a picture of Dirk riding Mark Cuban with a cowboy hat on your screen.

Maybe not as good as anyone. Just in the conversation with them.

Dudes efficiency is ridic so lets drop the arbitrary standards.

Kaner
08-04-2014, 03:35 AM
A guy who is not in the top 20 all-time for ppg or even in the top 40 for ts% is as dominant in offense as anyone???? I dont believe u posted that without an empty shot glass in front of you and a picture of Dirk riding Mark Cuban with a cowboy hat on your screen.

Dirk's career shines alot brighter in the playoffs, where he has always turned it up. 10th alltime in playoffs ppg and the 2nd highest ts% of the people in that company.

NYKalltheway
08-07-2014, 07:50 PM
As tempting as it is to hear you list of foreign players from the 30s and 40s... I will instead ask a question:

If these foreign players were "head & shoulders" better than the NBA players, then how did the United States dominate the Summer Olympics every four years using college amateur players?

There may have been a handful of players that were talented enough to play in the greatest basketball league in the world but only recently in the last 15 years has the international competition reached our level.


Basketball was not popular. Also, basketball is a team sport. Basketball requires some level of roster depth. The other countries had 1-2 world class players that were probably better than the American players. But the rest were high school level players at best.

A prime Michael Jordan and a bunch of 2nd tier high school kids can't beat a college team. That's why the college team (aka USA in the Olympics) wins. The USA tried sending high school kids and amateurs in the World Championships in a few occasions, which was taken seriously by pretty much no one yet if failed to win the gold. College teams also lost badly (1974 iirc) As years progressed, what the international teams mostly added was depth and better coaching. Coaching has definitely surpassed that of the USA in the last 15 years.... Depth will never reach the same levels due to population and the popularity of baaketball.

I think it's rather easy to see that having 10-15 players of level 7 is better than having a level 8 player and 14 level 2 players. No one is denying that US basketball has always been the best around the world. Individual talent though, existed everywhere.