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ManRam
07-30-2014, 10:41 AM
Voting for #14 has concluded and PSD's Official #14 NBA Player of all time is....

Jerry West

27.0 PPG / 5.8 RPG / 6.7 APG / .474 FG / 22.9 PER / 162.6 WS

Achievements:

14 time All-Star
1969 Finals MVP
1972 NBA Champion
10-Time 1st-Team All-NBA
5-Time All-Defense


Voting

Jerry West 26
Julius Erving 5
Charles Barkley 4
Karl Malone 3
Dwyane Wade 3
David Robinson 2
Scottie Pippen 1
Dirk Nowitzki 1
Kevin Garnett 0
John Stockton 0
Rick Barry 0
Elgin Baylor 0
Clyde Drexler 0
Clyde Frazier 0
George Mikan 0
Isiah Thomas 0

The List:

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?871758-PSD-s-Top-50-List-of-the-Greatest-NBA-Players-of-All-Time&p=28837457#post28837457

Please vote, explain and nominate...per the usual.


I would like to thank you guys for FINALLY nominating players. I got 6, which is a lot, but I'll throw them all on there now. Unless there is someone you REALLY think is missing and could be a top 25 player, maybe withhold a nomination for a few more tries. If not, feel free to keep nominating.

Chronz
07-30-2014, 12:13 PM
Just gonna start making arguments against certain guys that I think we should DQ for this round.

YAALREADYKNO
07-30-2014, 12:26 PM
Just gonna start making arguments against certain guys that I think we should DQ for this round.

lol

MinnesotaFtw
07-30-2014, 12:51 PM
John stockton

XpLiCiTT
07-30-2014, 01:05 PM
Going Dr. J here.

Nominate: Gary Payton and Jason Kidd...take cp3 off this list.

Chronz
07-30-2014, 01:07 PM
Julius and D-Rob are the clear cut best remaining at their positions IMO. But can we settle this PF situation?

Coilz
07-30-2014, 01:13 PM
Voted for Karl Malone.

Nominate Jason Kidd

mngopher35
07-30-2014, 01:17 PM
DR J here for me

Clippersfan86
07-30-2014, 01:17 PM
Voted for Blake Griffin

Nominate Chris Paul

ManningToTyree
07-30-2014, 01:23 PM
Dr J

THE MTL
07-30-2014, 01:39 PM
Dr J for sure /end thread.

I would like to nominate Pistol Pete.

Ebbs
07-30-2014, 01:59 PM
David Robinson....

Nominate George Gervin

todu82
07-30-2014, 02:23 PM
Julius Erving

Chronz
07-30-2014, 02:33 PM
Julius is a fine choice, I have a feeling Hondo wont be sitting next to him if he goes this early. If we go with Erving we are rewarding winning, talent and being a team player, almost to a fault.

The case against Erving isn't so much about his ABA days as much as its that he didn't take control of his young team in the NBA, he deferred and thats what stunted his stats. When he had a team built around him, the guy put up numbers that rivaled his ABA days, he just didn't have the ego to bend others to his will. Management had to get rid of all the glory hogs to make way for Doc to assert himself.


Still, a great choice given he has the chip, great peak play, few blemishes and an iconic placing in history. Legit vote.

YAALREADYKNO
07-30-2014, 03:11 PM
am i the only one here that thinks dirk or isiah>dr.j (if were just talking about their NBA careers)

Ebbs
07-30-2014, 03:54 PM
I think DRob should go but once he goes I'm voting Dirk over KG, Barkley, Malone whoever.

And I won't vote for a point guard until all four power forwards are off the board.

flea
07-30-2014, 03:57 PM
am i the only one here that thinks dirk or isiah>dr.j (if were just talking about their NBA careers)

Dirk, yes. Isaiah, I'd have to consider.

KnicksorBust
07-30-2014, 04:22 PM
I nominated Bob Cousy on the last thread. I don't see him?

My choice is Bob Pettit. He was the league's first MVP (won the award twice). He made 10 all-nba first teams. He was an elite player in his era. He was one of the few people that could claim they beat the Celtics dynasty team. His 1958 Finals performances is one of the lost great games in NBA History.

Pettit scored 19 points as the Hawks took a 57-52 lead into the halftime intermission. Six straight points by Pettit pushed the Hawks' margin to 10 in the third quarter before the Celtics sparked by Bob Cousy's brilliant playmaking, cut the margin back to six, 83-77. A Boston spurt in the opening moments of the final period gave the Celts an 86-84 lead, and the gloom was so thick in the arena one could practically cut it with a knife.

That's when Pettit took charge. Despite double and triple-teaming by the Celtics, the Hawk star sank basket after basket, free throw after free throw, singlehandedly keeping St. Louis in a game they otherwise would have lost, and preventing a dreaded return trip to Boston for a seventh game.

With a little more than 20 seconds to play, Pettit drove on Russell, stopped and arched a shot over the clawing grasp of the Celtic captain for the basket that gave the Hawks a 108-105 lead. But Tom Heinsohn made two foul shots with 16 second left to cut it to 108-107. With the Boston defense converging on Pettit, Slater Martin tried a set shot that missed, but Pettit somehow fought his way through the mob of Celtics around him to tap the ball in and make a final Celtic field goal meaningless. Pettit had scored 50 points, including 18 of the Hawks' final 21 points and gained sweet revenge from the Hawks' 1957 NBA Finals loss.

YAALREADYKNO
07-30-2014, 04:36 PM
Dirk, yes. Isaiah, I'd have to consider.

only reason why i would take thomas over him is playoff success. Dr.j and isaiah both played on pretty good teams but isaiah was able to accomplish a little more than dr.j

Ebbs
07-30-2014, 04:49 PM
KoB isn't it most nominations gets added?

Bruno
07-30-2014, 05:17 PM
I like getting the doctor off the board here.

then I think the next four spots go to Barkley-Dirk-KG-Robinson in an order that should be debated a lot.

I've got Pippen, K. Malone, Stockton, Hondo, Baylor, Pettit and Wade closing out the top 26 in a debatable order.

Raidaz4Life
07-30-2014, 06:41 PM
Malone > Dr. J and it really isn't close

flea
07-30-2014, 06:51 PM
I don't think Dr. J has much of an argument against Admiral or Barkley either. Surprised at the love he gets on here.

DR_1
07-30-2014, 06:54 PM
Admiral for me.

Raidaz4Life
07-30-2014, 06:55 PM
I don't think Dr. J has much of an argument against Admiral or Barkley either. Surprised at the love he gets on here.

completely agree, I could probably think of 5 players I'd take before him.

YAALREADYKNO
07-30-2014, 07:26 PM
the reason why dr.j gets so much love and gets a bit overrated in the alltime rankings by alot of people including the so called "experts" on espn, nba tv, etc is because of the iconic figure that he is. Dr.j, Jordan, and magic are probably top 3 as far as icons are but if you're talking about strictly as a player he's at the bottom of the top 20

mightybosstone
07-30-2014, 07:52 PM
Erving was the clear-cut choice here, IMO. The next 5-7 spots should be highly contested, and I think the next vote is where things get really interesting.

Iggz53
07-30-2014, 07:55 PM
Torn between Erving and D-Rob, but I think KG deserves some recognition here too. But then I see guys like Pettit, Baylor, Barry, and Barkley. This is too hard.

YAALREADYKNO
07-30-2014, 08:01 PM
Erving was the clear-cut choice here, IMO. The next 5-7 spots should be highly contested, and I think the next vote is where things get really interesting.

how is he the "clear cut choice" here?

mightybosstone
07-30-2014, 08:11 PM
how is he the "clear cut choice" here?

I'm not saying it's not up for debate, but I think he's the last guy who's in that first tier of players just outside the top 10-11 with Robertson, West and Moses. Erving had a ridiculously dominant career statistically even when you consider that most of his peak seasons were in the ABA. And while he did play much of his prime in an inferior league, he COMPLETELY dominated that inferior league. Plus he won titles AND MVPs in both the ABA and NBA (the only player to accomplish that feat I believe) and was one of the few players whose advanced numbers, career numbers and peak/prime numbers are all among the all-time greats.

When you're looking at all-around solid resumes, I don't think there is another player left on the board who rivals Erving's. Robinson and Barkley have the advanced stats, but not the postseason success as a No. 1. Havlicek has far more team success and solid career numbers, but not nearly the individual success or advanced stats. You could make a halfway decent case for Dirk or Wade, but neither guy's overall resume is quite as impressive.

YAALREADYKNO
07-30-2014, 08:20 PM
I'm not saying it's not up for debate, but I think he's the last guy who's in that first tier of players just outside the top 10-11 with Robertson, West and Moses. Erving had a ridiculously dominant career statistically even when you consider that most of his peak seasons were in the ABA. And while he did play much of his prime in an inferior league, he COMPLETELY dominated that inferior league. Plus he won titles AND MVPs in both the ABA and NBA (the only player to accomplish that feat I believe) and was one of the few players whose advanced numbers, career numbers and peak/prime numbers are all among the all-time greats.

When you're looking at all-around solid resumes, I don't think there is another player left on the board who rivals Erving's. Robinson and Barkley have the advanced stats, but not the postseason success as a No. 1. Havlicek has far more team success and solid career numbers, but not nearly the individual success or advanced stats. You could make a halfway decent case for Dirk or Wade, but neither guy's overall resume is quite as impressive.

I dont get how you can put Doc over Dirk, Robinson, and some of the other guys on that list. I dont think its fair to count doc's aba career and then add it to his NBA resume since we're basing all the other guys off their NBA careers only. I can't put doc ahead of dirk drob kg malone and maybe barkley if this is just based off just NBA careers. The guys i just named accomplished more than Dr.J. Dirk's NBA resume is more impressive than dr.j's and he's a better PostSeason player than doc

mightybosstone
07-30-2014, 08:47 PM
I dont get how you can put Doc over Dirk, Robinson, and some of the other guys on that list. I dont think its fair to count doc's aba career and then add it to his NBA resume since we're basing all the other guys off their NBA careers only. I can't put doc ahead of dirk drob kg malone and maybe barkley if this is just based off just NBA careers. The guys i just named accomplished more than Dr.J. Dirk's NBA resume is more impressive than dr.j's and he's a better PostSeason player than doc

Dr. J has as many MVPs and relevant titles as Dirk and Robinson. Also, if you're going to completely ignore all ABA production, shouldn't you ignore some of the production and accolades of NBA players during the ABA's peak? Think about it. Before the two leagues merged, technically BOTH leagues were inferior leagues, because they were pulling elite players from one another. I'm not saying his ABA production should matter as much as his NBA production, but I do think that door swings both ways and you're completely ignoring that side of the argument.

YAALREADYKNO
07-30-2014, 08:59 PM
Dr. J has as many MVPs and relevant titles as Dirk and Robinson. Also, if you're going to completely ignore all ABA production, shouldn't you ignore some of the production and accolades of NBA players during the ABA's peak? Think about it. Before the two leagues merged, technically BOTH leagues were inferior leagues, because they were pulling elite players from one another. I'm not saying his ABA production should matter as much as his NBA production, but I do think that door swings both ways and you're completely ignoring that side of the argument.

It was the ABA Not the NBA end of story. If we're going off of what the rest of the guys did only in the NBA then we have to do that with dr.j Do you know who doc played with in that 83 finals run he had? He had one of the best centers in league history in Moses Malone who won finals mvp that yr BTW when Erving won his only championship. Dirk led his team to a championship as the #1 option and with jason terry as his 2nd best player. Dirk never played with a player as talented as moses. Dirk is also more clutch and the better playoff performer of the two.

KnicksorBust
07-30-2014, 09:03 PM
KoB isn't it most nominations gets added?

Oh you may be right. Good point. So nominate him with me so he gets added. :)


I'm not saying it's not up for debate, but I think he's the last guy who's in that first tier of players just outside the top 10-11 with Robertson, West and Moses. Erving had a ridiculously dominant career statistically even when you consider that most of his peak seasons were in the ABA. And while he did play much of his prime in an inferior league, he COMPLETELY dominated that inferior league. Plus he won titles AND MVPs in both the ABA and NBA (the only player to accomplish that feat I believe) and was one of the few players whose advanced numbers, career numbers and peak/prime numbers are all among the all-time greats.

When you're looking at all-around solid resumes, I don't think there is another player left on the board who rivals Erving's. Robinson and Barkley have the advanced stats, but not the postseason success as a No. 1. Havlicek has far more team success and solid career numbers, but not nearly the individual success or advanced stats. You could make a halfway decent case for Dirk or Wade, but neither guy's overall resume is quite as impressive.

Julius Erving - 1 MVP, 1 Title (as a 2nd/3rd option behind Moses and equal to Toney), 5x All-NBA 1st Team, 2x All-NBA 2nd team
Bob Pettit - 1 MVP, 1 Title (clearly would have been Finals with a series clinching 50 points in game 6 to beat Bill Russell and the Celtics), 10x All-NBA 1st team, 1x All-NBA 2nd team

Bob Pettit also had the higher career PER and the superior WS/48.

KnicksorBust
07-30-2014, 09:06 PM
It was the ABA Not the NBA end of story. If we're going off of what the rest of the guys did only in the NBA then we have to do that with dr.j Do you know who doc played with in that 83 finals run he had? He had one of the best centers in league history in Moses Malone who won finals mvp that yr BTW when Erving won his only championship. Dirk led his team to a championship as the #1 option and with jason terry as his 2nd best player. Dirk never played with a player as talented as moses. Dirk is also more clutch and the better playoff performer of the two.

Yeah I went back and looked and Dr. J was third in scoring and third in WS/48 for both the Finals and the entire playoff run. Moses Malone was clearly the MVP of that team but the others were equally important statistically. Even Bobby Jones defense can't be understated. His championship is not nearly as impressive was what Bob Pettit did for the St. Louis Hawks.

ThuglifeJ
07-30-2014, 09:08 PM
NOMINATE:

JASON KIDD

PETE MARAVICH



this round goes to Dr J deservingely

Chronz
07-30-2014, 09:26 PM
Yeah Im currently trying to rank the best championship seasons and Im surprised at how unimpressive Doc's sole run was. Pettit, Barry and Wade had by far the best championship runs left I think. Whats keeping them out here?

flea
07-30-2014, 09:36 PM
I guess the Dr. J love is because most stars from Jordan to Lebron said they liked his game. Flashiness and dunks he had, but so did AI.

Coilz
07-30-2014, 10:02 PM
I don't get all this Julius Erving love. I would easily put Malone/Dirk/Garnett and Robinson over him. Maybe even a couple more on the list.

He was a flashy player, made some fantastic dunks that still stand out to me, but looking at his career as a whole no way he belongs at 15.

Coilz
07-30-2014, 11:08 PM
Sorry for the double post but how is Nash not nominated yet? Much more deserving than Cp3.

mightybosstone
07-30-2014, 11:24 PM
Sorry for the double post but how is Nash not nominated yet? Much more deserving than Cp3.

That's totally debatable. That's why we have these types of threads so we can have those types of debates. Personally, I think Nash has had a superior career than Paul. But if you're asking me who I'd rather have in his prime, I think Paul was a greater player at his peak than Nash was at any point in his career.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-31-2014, 01:09 AM
I voted for Wade so me and JB can bash Lebron for saying he played with a top 15 player all time.

GREATNESS ONE
07-31-2014, 01:49 AM
I voted for Wade so me and JB can bash Lebron for saying he played with a top 15 player all time.
:yawn:

KnicksorBust
07-31-2014, 06:36 AM
Sorry for the double post but how is Nash not nominated yet? Much more deserving than Cp3.

That's totally debatable. That's why we have these types of threads so we can have those types of debates. Personally, I think Nash has had a superior career than Paul. But if you're asking me who I'd rather have in his prime, I think Paul was a greater player at his peak than Nash was at any point in his career.

No response about Pettit?

NYKalltheway
07-31-2014, 08:18 AM
Voted for Elgin Baylor in an attempt to remind people who they should vote for next ;)

YAALREADYKNO
07-31-2014, 10:41 AM
well it looks like another dr.j is gonna get the #15 spot but this list as a whole is pretty much messed up lol

Chronz
07-31-2014, 11:39 AM
Had a feeling Doc would win out. I dont feel comfortable voting for anyone left so I wont complain against him. Sometimes the narrative that comes with being the first of your kind becomes a part of your greatness. Doc has been voted higher than this throughout the years so its not that shocking.

List is definitely getting the big names out here, sooner or later you guys are gonna have to make some tough decisions.

Wish I knew what the voters were valuing.

Chronz
07-31-2014, 11:40 AM
Pablo, if you can hear me, I will vote in your honor.

Chronz
07-31-2014, 11:51 AM
Since we seem to be rewarding winning, I thought I would take the time to rank some of the championship seasons we have remaining.


#1/2: Wade + Rick Barry - Easily the best remaining. This is tier 1 stuff, both willed their teams beyond their talent level.

#3: Pettit - 59 - Loses points because it came in a semi-segregated league and Bill Russell was limping around for the final game. But the guy didn't fall off as the league evolved/improved so its hard to dock him too much.

#4-7: Dirk, KG, Drexler and DROB (99) - Id love to hear someones take on how to distinguish between these chip runs.

#8: Isiah Thomas - 90 - Might enrage some people but I really dont see these titles as much more distinguishable from the Chauncey Billups run. Great performances but just not as great as those above IMO. But I understand I might be underrating smalls.



Hondo/Pippen won a gazillion championships, not trying to go back and research those games but Im sure you could put them somewhere up there.

So if we are valuing peak seasons while winning it all. Aka legacy stamping seasons, these guys should get more respect.


Notice how Erving isn't even on there. Great career but he never had that sort of legacy stamping season.

YAALREADYKNO
07-31-2014, 12:05 PM
Since we seem to be rewarding winning, I thought I would take the time to rank some of the championship seasons we have remaining.


#1/2: Wade + Rick Barry - Easily the best remaining. This is tier 1 stuff, both willed their teams beyond their talent level.

#3: Pettit - 59 - Loses points because it came in a semi-segregated league and Bill Russell was limping around for the final game. But the guy didn't fall off as the league evolved/improved so its hard to dock him too much.

#4-7: Dirk, KG, Drexler and DROB (99) - Id love to hear someones take on how to distinguish between these chip runs.

#8: Isiah Thomas - 90 - Might enrage some people but I really dont see these titles as much more distinguishable from the Chauncey Billups run. Great performances but just not as great as those above IMO. But I understand I might be underrating smalls.



Hondo/Pippen won a gazillion championships, not trying to go back and research those games but Im sure you could put them somewhere up there.

So if we are valuing peak seasons while winning it all. Aka legacy stamping seasons, these guys should get more respect.


Notice how Erving isn't even on there. Great career but he never had that sort of legacy stamping season.


honestly i believe dirk belongs in that 1-2. I think he gets so underrated on here especially for the closer and how clutch he is. His playoff performances are also vastly underrated. Only 1 of 4 players to avg 25 and 10 in the playoffs without a 2nd true allstar by his side during his prime yrs. In 06 wade still had a shaq maybe not the Laker shaq but he was still a 20/10 guy. Dirk showed how valuable he was in 2011 when he was injured for 9 games that team went 2-7. Dirk easily could have won MVP that yr if he wasnt out for those 9 games

KnicksorBust
07-31-2014, 12:21 PM
Since we seem to be rewarding winning, I thought I would take the time to rank some of the championship seasons we have remaining.


#1/2: Wade + Rick Barry - Easily the best remaining. This is tier 1 stuff, both willed their teams beyond their talent level.

#3: Pettit - 59 - Loses points because it came in a semi-segregated league and Bill Russell was limping around for the final game. But the guy didn't fall off as the league evolved/improved so its hard to dock him too much.

#4-7: Dirk, KG, Drexler and DROB (99) - Id love to hear someones take on how to distinguish between these chip runs.

#8: Isiah Thomas - 90 - Might enrage some people but I really dont see these titles as much more distinguishable from the Chauncey Billups run. Great performances but just not as great as those above IMO. But I understand I might be underrating smalls.



Hondo/Pippen won a gazillion championships, not trying to go back and research those games but Im sure you could put them somewhere up there.

So if we are valuing peak seasons while winning it all. Aka legacy stamping seasons, these guys should get more respect.


Notice how Erving isn't even on there. Great career but he never had that sort of legacy stamping season.

When you factor in that Wade has never been considered the best player in the league (0mvps) and that Barry's career was so disjointed and not as consistently dominant. Bob Pettit becomes the clear choice for the next vote.

Chronz
07-31-2014, 12:25 PM
honestly i believe dirk belongs in that 1-2. I think he gets so underrated on here especially for the closer and how clutch he is. His playoff performances are also vastly underrated. Only 1 of 4 players to avg 25 and 10 in the playoffs without a 2nd true allstar by his side during his prime yrs. In 06 wade still had a shaq maybe not the Laker shaq but he was still a 20/10 guy. Dirk showed how valuable he was in 2011 when he was injured for 9 games that team went 2-7. Dirk easily could have won MVP that yr if he wasnt out for those 9 games

Dirk was arguably more valuable to his team but that doesn't mean he performed better. You say Wade had Shaq but I honestly think Dirk had more talent on his team that year, not by much and you could argue his talent not showing up is what counts but the roles were switched during the rematch. Difference being that Wade was dominant in his showings and Dirk was pretty mediocre.

KG and D-Rob were demons defensively for their teams historically great defenses, thats pretty tough to ignore considering Dirk is about average on that end by 2011. Drexler is the least influential defensively but he was the most efficient offensively. He really was a #1 option caliber playing getting to maximize his touches, it was his final season as a legit star IMO.

YAALREADYKNO
07-31-2014, 12:37 PM
Dirk was arguably more valuable to his team but that doesn't mean he performed better. You say Wade had Shaq but I honestly think Dirk had more talent on his team that year, not by much and you could argue his talent not showing up is what counts but the roles were switched during the rematch. Difference being that Wade was dominant in his showings and Dirk was pretty mediocre.

KG and D-Rob were demons defensively for their teams historically great defenses, thats pretty tough to ignore considering Dirk is about average on that end by 2011. Drexler is the least influential defensively but he was the most efficient offensively. He really was a #1 option caliber playing getting to maximize his touches, it was his final season as a legit star IMO.


in 06 dirk took a starting lineup with adrian griffin and eric dampier in it to the finals. Josh howard was probably his 2nd best player that yr because harris was still young and terry wasnt the player he was in 11. People underrate mourning, jason williams, antoine walker, and even gary payton who hit a clutch shot in the 06 finals. Wade was just straight dominant aint no denying that but you could say that dirk in 11 especially in the 4th was as clutch as anyone in NBA history when the game was on the line throughout the playoffs not just in the finals.

As for kg and drob great players but i'd think of those guys more of complimentary superstars than a real number 1 option. Seems like KG always ran away from clutch moments and drob just could never put his regular season play together with his playoff games. Drexler is probably on the same level as kg and drob. I just feel that DIrk gets so overlooked when it comes to the all time greats because he doesnt fit the typical power foward/big man mold

flea
07-31-2014, 01:14 PM
In my mind the '06 Mavs won the title. Still great runs that year for both Dirk and Wade.

YAALREADYKNO
07-31-2014, 01:16 PM
In my mind the '06 Mavs won the title. Still great runs that year for both Dirk and Wade.

???

Chronz
07-31-2014, 01:21 PM
When you factor in that Wade has never been considered the best player in the league (0mvps) and that Barry's career was so disjointed and not as consistently dominant. Bob Pettit becomes the clear choice for the next vote.
Thats a byproduct of their competition tho, neither of them would be considered the best player in a league led by LeBron, Duncan, Kobe and you could prolly throw Dirk in there too.

Agreed on Barry

I dont know if I can get behind Pettit as my best natural PF (Duncan is a hybrid 4/5). He certainly displayed a great peak stretch of play, but these other guys just have massive edge in longevity and comparable peaks.

Hawkeye15
07-31-2014, 01:31 PM
the Admiral here for me.

Chronz
07-31-2014, 01:48 PM
in 06 dirk took a starting lineup with adrian griffin and eric dampier in it to the finals. Josh howard was probably his 2nd best player that yr because harris was still young and terry wasnt the player he was in 11.
Technically speaking, he took Diop and Devin Harris to the Finals. Dampier was coming off the bench and Adrian Griffin stopped getting starts in the Spurs series. A testament to their depth, they had various tactical lineups to throw at teams. Im not a big fan of Stackhouse, but as a bench piece, he was decent. Josh Howard was a strong 2-way guy and JET was in the prime of his career but I would agree he had BY FAR his best stuff in the 2011 playoffs. Miami was more talented at the top I suppose but I really dislike Antoine Walker and with Shaq struggling at times, I didn't see much outside of Zo and White Chocolate.


People underrate mourning, jason williams, antoine walker, and even gary payton who hit a clutch shot in the 06 finals. Wade was just straight dominant aint no denying that but you could say that dirk in 11 especially in the 4th was as clutch as anyone in NBA history when the game was on the line throughout the playoffs not just in the finals.
Mourning was critical because of Shaqs said struggles, J-Will was composed, Walker sucked and GP hitting a big shot doesn't negate his mediocre contributions throughout the entire playoffs. Dirk was anti clutch in 06 and I dont know how accurate your hyperbole is but he was pretty clutch in 11, kind of averages out which is what I usually find to be the case when it comes to clutch talk, but yes, theres no denying Dirk is more clutch offensively than any of the candidates mentioned before, but those guys were bringing that same timely play on the defensive end, or in the case of D-Rob , well before the game even got to that point. Which is my greater point, clutch play isn't more relevant than your play in the TOTALITY of the game.




As for kg and drob great players but i'd think of those guys more of complimentary superstars than a real number 1 option.
I would agree, not because of this first option stuff because you can still be a greater offensive force than someone taking more shots than you, but because we happen to be dealing with a clearly superior offensive player. But I hope you understand why people can think a players impact on the game is more important than his pecking order offensively. Bill Russell is a testament to that sort of impact and both those guys were more in the mold of Russell than Dirk is. Dirk was more in the Pettit mold. Look at their production overall for their championship runs and their play throughout their regular season. You mention the MVP award that Dirk could have won had he stayed healthy, but the same would be true for KG during his DPOY/Chip run. Imagine what record the C's could have finished with and what an MVP+DPOY+Chip season would do for KG.



Seems like KG always ran away from clutch moments and drob just could never put his regular season play together with his playoff games. Drexler is probably on the same level as kg and drob. I just feel that DIrk gets so overlooked when it comes to the all time greats because he doesnt fit the typical power foward/big man mold
Its a compelling case for sure, I think the Mavs utility pieces deserve alot of credit. A guy like Peja could come in and torch an overextending team like LA, be of no use vs Miami and then they just bring in a guy like Barea who completely broke down their defense. But it all revolved around Dirk, those same guys weren't the same without Dirk and I do think he deserves, at the least, a distinction from these other guys. #3 best run probably goes to him then I suppose.

As for D-Rob, yes his RS play rarely translated into the post season, but when you're playing at such an ungodly level that Dirk never really approaches to begin with, its best to just focus on the comparable level of play come playoffs. Dirk definitely outshines him throughout his career, but in terms of that 1 single run, its not that different.

YAALREADYKNO
07-31-2014, 03:35 PM
Technically speaking, he took Diop and Devin Harris to the Finals. Dampier was coming off the bench and Adrian Griffin stopped getting starts in the Spurs series. A testament to their depth, they had various tactical lineups to throw at teams. Im not a big fan of Stackhouse, but as a bench piece, he was decent. Josh Howard was a strong 2-way guy and JET was in the prime of his career but I would agree he had BY FAR his best stuff in the 2011 playoffs. Miami was more talented at the top I suppose but I really dislike Antoine Walker and with Shaq struggling at times, I didn't see much outside of Zo and White Chocolate.


Mourning was critical because of Shaqs said struggles, J-Will was composed, Walker sucked and GP hitting a big shot doesn't negate his mediocre contributions throughout the entire playoffs. Dirk was anti clutch in 06 and I dont know how accurate your hyperbole is but he was pretty clutch in 11, kind of averages out which is what I usually find to be the case when it comes to clutch talk, but yes, theres no denying Dirk is more clutch offensively than any of the candidates mentioned before, but those guys were bringing that same timely play on the defensive end, or in the case of D-Rob , well before the game even got to that point. Which is my greater point, clutch play isn't more relevant than your play in the TOTALITY of the game.




I would agree, not because of this first option stuff because you can still be a greater offensive force than someone taking more shots than you, but because we happen to be dealing with a clearly superior offensive player. But I hope you understand why people can think a players impact on the game is more important than his pecking order offensively. Bill Russell is a testament to that sort of impact and both those guys were more in the mold of Russell than Dirk is. Dirk was more in the Pettit mold. Look at their production overall for their championship runs and their play throughout their regular season. You mention the MVP award that Dirk could have won had he stayed healthy, but the same would be true for KG during his DPOY/Chip run. Imagine what record the C's could have finished with and what an MVP+DPOY+Chip season would do for KG.



Its a compelling case for sure, I think the Mavs utility pieces deserve alot of credit. A guy like Peja could come in and torch an overextending team like LA, be of no use vs Miami and then they just bring in a guy like Barea who completely broke down their defense. But it all revolved around Dirk, those same guys weren't the same without Dirk and I do think he deserves, at the least, a distinction from these other guys. #3 best run probably goes to him then I suppose.

As for D-Rob, yes his RS play rarely translated into the post season, but when you're playing at such an ungodly level that Dirk never really approaches to begin with, its best to just focus on the comparable level of play come playoffs. Dirk definitely outshines him throughout his career, but in terms of that 1 single run, its not that different.

Malone put up "godly" numbers maybe even more than d-rob but people dont label him as a top notch player because he could never do it in the playoffs. Regular season does matter and thats how you get your stats, But playoffs are where players are most remembered and even if Dirk's had only 1 memorable successful playoff run its still 1 more than both KG and DROB. I just dont see how anyone can take guys who always had great regular season success but in the post season they become a shell of themselves over a guy who has experienced regular season success and steps his game up even more in the postseason, but thats just me. As far as the Bill russell comparison when you're grabbing 20-25 rebounds and blocking 10-11 shots of course you'll have more of an impact lol.

WaDe03
07-31-2014, 04:57 PM
Shaq was terrible that finals series against the Mavs by his standards. That was clearly a one man performance and in my opinion and many others opinions the greatest of all time.

YAALREADYKNO
07-31-2014, 05:33 PM
Shaq was terrible that finals series against the Mavs by his standards. That was clearly a one man performance and in my opinion and many others opinions the greatest of all time.

cant deny that fact

Raidaz4Life
07-31-2014, 06:00 PM
For people wanting to use Dr J's ABA stats... use his stats per 100 possessions and compare it to other per 100 possession stats and they become much less impressive.

for example Doc's best ABA season per 100 poss.

34.4 pts, 12.9 REB, 5.9 Assists, 2.9 Stl, 2.2 Blk 50% Shooting

Robinson's best season per 100 poss.

39.2 pts, 14.1 REB, 6.3 Assists, 2.3 Stl, 4.4 Blk 50% Shooting

Malone's best season per 100 poss

40 pts, 14.4 REB, 6.5 Assists, 2 Stl, .9 Blk 55% Shooting

Garnett's best season per 100 poss

33.2 pts, 19 REB, 6.8 Assists, 2 Stl, 3 Blk 50% Shooting

etc.


He really has no legit statistical argument over any of the guys listed and I'd also put him behind Dirk and Barkley as well

WaDe03
07-31-2014, 08:06 PM
For people wanting to use Dr J's ABA stats... use his stats per 100 possessions and compare it to other per 100 possession stats and they become much less impressive.

for example Doc's best ABA season per 100 poss.

34.4 pts, 12.9 REB, 5.9 Assists, 2.9 Stl, 2.2 Blk 50% Shooting

Robinson's best season per 100 poss.

39.2 pts, 14.1 REB, 6.3 Assists, 2.3 Stl, 4.4 Blk 50% Shooting

Malone's best season per 100 poss

40 pts, 14.4 REB, 6.5 Assists, 2 Stl, .9 Blk 55% Shooting

Garnett's best season per 100 poss

33.2 pts, 19 REB, 6.8 Assists, 2 Stl, 3 Blk 50% Shooting

etc.


He really has no legit statistical argument over any of the guys listed and I'd also put him behind Dirk and Barkley as well

Do you know Wades per 100 by chance?

mngopher35
07-31-2014, 08:12 PM
Do you know Wades per 100 by chance?

35.3 points 8.7 assists 7.3 rebounds 2.5 steals 1.4 blocks .492% fg

It is on bball reference

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html



EDIT:

Whoops I did averages best year is

41.8 points 10.3 assists 7 rebounds 3 steals 1.9 blocks .491 fg%

mlond004
07-31-2014, 08:48 PM
Dr. J over Wade is just dumb. Pure hate because of the last few years. I'm more than willing to agree with arguments for Barkley, Robinson, and Malone being higher than Wade (or even just the next few selections) but you people are crazy for voting Dr. J here. This isn't the "most exciting" player list.

WaDe03
07-31-2014, 11:02 PM
35.3 points 8.7 assists 7.3 rebounds 2.5 steals 1.4 blocks .492% fg

It is on bball reference

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html



EDIT:

Whoops I did averages best year is

41.8 points 10.3 assists 7 rebounds 3 steals 1.9 blocks .491 fg%

Thanks I appreciate it. Very high numbers.

WaDe03
08-01-2014, 12:39 AM
I think Wade needs to be picked in the next 5. He was 26th on the last one I think and he's won 2 championships since then. I believe he's better than West and Dr. j and have a hard time believing any of these other players are better than him.

Chronz
08-01-2014, 01:39 AM
Shaq was terrible that finals series against the Mavs by his standards. That was clearly a one man performance and in my opinion and many others opinions the greatest of all time.
I have a hard time calling him terrible when he was attracting hard doubles from 2 bigs at all times. That he couldn't beat them like he used to is why he struggled but he was still a positive influence for his team overall. His defense wasn't too shabby either, still averaged 15-12 in the final 4 wins as well.



Malone put up "godly" numbers maybe even more than d-rob but people dont label him as a top notch player because he could never do it in the playoffs.
I think Robinson pretty clearly tops Malone statistically. Yes they both declined in the playoffs, but unlike Malone, D-Rob could impact the game on the other end.


Regular season does matter and thats how you get your stats, But playoffs are where players are most remembered and even if Dirk's had only 1 memorable successful playoff run its still 1 more than both KG and DROB. I just dont see how anyone can take guys who always had great regular season success but in the post season they become a shell of themselves over a guy who has experienced regular season success and steps his game up even more in the postseason, but thats just me.
I think I already explained why because the relative dropoff isnt more important than the overall quality of play between them all.


As far as the Bill russell comparison when you're grabbing 20-25 rebounds and blocking 10-11 shots of course you'll have more of an impact lol.
I dont get the joke. Box score metrics aren't where Bill shined, in fact, he probably has the worst stats of anyone that will get voted into the top 30 or so.

Chronz
08-01-2014, 02:06 AM
Dr. J over Wade is just dumb. Pure hate because of the last few years. I'm more than willing to agree with arguments for Barkley, Robinson, and Malone being higher than Wade (or even just the next few selections) but you people are crazy for voting Dr. J here. This isn't the "most exciting" player list.
Im inclined to agree. Im just having a hard time separating anyone from other players.

The problem with Wade is that hes always injured.
Playoffs:
2005 - Injured Ribs vs Detroit cost his championship contender a chance at the title.
2006 - Legacy Stamping year
2007 - Dislocated shoulder vs Houston, sucked in first round defeat
2008 - Battled injuries all year, team missed playoffs entirely

2009-2011 Healthy - You get 3 healthy years, 2 of which consist of first round defeats and 1 impressive Finals birth. Then we have the last 3 years of up and down play.

Thats like 6 out of 11 seasons that were diminished by injury to close the year.


Would you rather have that or consistent reliability from a guy like Dirk/Chuck?

WaDe03
08-01-2014, 02:41 AM
Im inclined to agree. Im just having a hard time separating anyone from other players.

The problem with Wade is that hes always injured.
Playoffs:
2005 - Injured Ribs vs Detroit cost his championship contender a chance at the title.
2006 - Legacy Stamping year
2007 - Dislocated shoulder vs Houston, sucked in first round defeat
2008 - Battled injuries all year, team missed playoffs entirely

2009-2011 Healthy - You get 3 healthy years, 2 of which consist of first round defeats and 1 impressive Finals birth. Then we have the last 3 years of up and down play.

Thats like 6 out of 11 seasons that were diminished by injury to close the year.


Would you rather have that or consistent reliability from a guy like Dirk/Chuck?

It's crazy to think how much higher he would be on this list had he not been battling all of these injuries his whole career. Possibly top 10?

YAALREADYKNO
08-01-2014, 10:33 AM
I have a hard time calling him terrible when he was attracting hard doubles from 2 bigs at all times. That he couldn't beat them like he used to is why he struggled but he was still a positive influence for his team overall. His defense wasn't too shabby either, still averaged 15-12 in the final 4 wins as well.



I think Robinson pretty clearly tops Malone statistically. Yes they both declined in the playoffs, but unlike Malone, D-Rob could impact the game on the other end.


I think I already explained why because the relative dropoff isnt more important than the overall quality of play between them all.


I dont get the joke. Box score metrics aren't where Bill shined, in fact, he probably has the worst stats of anyone that will get voted into the top 30 or so.


Offensively bill russell was average but defensively he would grab 20-25 rebounds a night and from what im guessing block 10-11 shots a game. The celtics as had whole a multiple scorers but they never had that dominant scorer which is why to me Bill Russell would have a bigger impact thats all im saying.

YAALREADYKNO
08-01-2014, 10:40 AM
It's crazy to think how much higher he would be on this list had he not been battling all of these injuries his whole career. Possibly top 10?

10-15 range if he was healthy his whole career. Wade was up there with lebron for a few yrs.

mightybosstone
08-01-2014, 11:22 AM
It's crazy to think how much higher he would be on this list had he not been battling all of these injuries his whole career. Possibly top 10?

A hypothetical like that is really, really hard to judge because there are so many other factors that go into it. For example, when he has been healthy the last couple of years the elite production hasn't been there. Is that because his body is breaking down due to injury or is it because he's just not as athletic as he used to be and he's out of his prime? Also, is Wade winning any MVPs if he's healthy when Lebron is still in the league? And if Wade had been 100% healthy, would he still have teamed with Lebron and Bosh?

To crack the top 10, you can't just be great for 7-8 years. You have to do some pretty extraordinary things. He has had an exceptional career, but even if Wade had been 100% healthy and had played every game with relatively consistent production, I don't think he cracks the top 10. He would either have needed to find another gear and win an MVP or two, win some more titles or continue to be that consistently great for another 4-5 years to crack the top 10. I just don't see a healthy Wade doing any of those things.

Chronz
08-01-2014, 12:06 PM
Offensively bill russell was average but defensively he would grab 20-25 rebounds a night and from what im guessing block 10-11 shots a game. The celtics as had whole a multiple scorers but they never had that dominant scorer which is why to me Bill Russell would have a bigger impact thats all im saying.
Its impossible to know how many of his 25 rebounds were defensive rebounds but the point remains, his stats suck in comparison to the guys being nominated here. Raw stats aside, we can agree on Russ having a greater impact than all involved, but that wouldn't change the reason he was mentioned in the first place.

NYKalltheway
08-03-2014, 06:49 AM
I think Wade needs to be picked in the next 5. He was 26th on the last one I think and he's won 2 championships since then. I believe he's better than West and Dr. j and have a hard time believing any of these other players are better than him.

By beating who? Which of the Heat's opponent was a top 50 player of all time? Which opposing team will be remembered as a team that could have won?

This is not a ring collection list. Wade over Gervin and Drexler is a heresy towars guards. And I'll add Havlicek to that mini list too even if he was a SG-SF.

I'll agree that a healthy Wade could have become a legend. He's not one though. Otherwise Iverson and McGrady are legends too.