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ManRam
07-25-2014, 09:35 AM
Voting for #12 has concluded and PSD's Official #12 NBA Player of all time is....

Oscar Robertson

25.7 PPG / 7.5 RPG / 9.5 APG / .485 FG / 23.2 PER / 189.2 WS

Achievements:

12 time All-Star
1971 NBA Champion
1 Time MVP
3 Time All-Star Game MVP
Lead the League in Assists 7x
Lead the League in Points 1x
181 Career Triple Doubles

Voting

Oscar Robertson 20
Moses Malone 11
Julius Erving 5
Jerry West 5
Dwyane Wade 3
Charles Barkley 2
Karl Malone 2
David Robinson 1
John Stockton 1
Rick Barry 0
Elgin Baylor 0
Clyde Drexler 0
Kevin Garnett 0
Dirk Nowitzki 0
Scottie Pippen 0
Isiah Thomas 0

The List:

1. Michael Jordan (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?868731-PSD-s-Official-1-Player-of-All-Time)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?868922-PSD-s-Official-2-NBA-Player-of-All-Time)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?869144-PSD-s-Official-3-Player-of-All-Time)
4. Magic Johnson (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?869307-PSD-s-Official-4-Player-of-All-Time)
5. Shaquille O'neal (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?869509-PSD-s-Official-5-NBA-Player-of-All-Time)
6. Tim Duncan (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?869984-PSD-s-Official-6-NBA-Player-of-All-Time)
7. Hakeem Olajuwan (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?870218-PSD-s-Official-7-Player-of-All-Time)
8. LeBron James (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?870493-PSD-s-Official-8-Player-of-All-Time&p=28768479#post28768479)
9. Larry Bird (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?870796-PSD-s-Official-9-Player-of-All-Time)
10. Kobe Bryant (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?871131-PSD-s-Official-10-Player-of-All-Time)
11. Bill Russell (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?871367-PSD-s-Official-11-Player-of-All-Time)
12.Oscar Robertson (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?871648-PSD-s-Official-12-Player-of-All-Time)

Please vote, explain and nominate...per the usual.

YAALREADYKNO
07-25-2014, 10:13 AM
this has to be moses

ThuglifeJ
07-25-2014, 11:53 AM
Dr J...wow underrated

todu82
07-25-2014, 12:13 PM
Julius Erving

Minimal
07-25-2014, 12:30 PM
david robinson

Raps08-09 Champ
07-25-2014, 01:40 PM
Moses.

Chronz
07-25-2014, 01:49 PM
Moses OR West and THEN Doctor J or someone.

Chronz
07-25-2014, 01:50 PM
Dr J...wow underrated

You cant be underrated when all the players ahead of you have a superior case.

YAALREADYKNO
07-25-2014, 02:11 PM
Moses OR West and THEN Doctor J or someone.

isiah thomas, dirk> dr j IMO

KnicksorBust
07-25-2014, 02:15 PM
Moses Malone.

3 league Mvps. Elite two-way player. Incredible longevity. Finals MVP of one of the most dominant playoff runs in nba history.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-25-2014, 02:22 PM
IM I the only one who feels like Karl Malone should be number 13 or 14? That guy was monster, he just ran into Jordan

Bruno
07-25-2014, 02:29 PM
IM I the only one who feels like Karl Malone should be number 13 or 14? That guy was monster, he just ran into Jordan

Karl Malone and David Robinson are two players who absolutely dominate statistically who are very difficult to properly gauge. based on the way people talk about Hakeem, you'd think he has Robinsons numbers. Based on the way people talk about Robinson, you'd think he has the numbers that Hakeem actually put up.

fans who prioritize peak advanced statistics above all else have no choice but to put Robinson and Malone above other players still available. Robinson is one of the all time league leaders in WS/48 and Karl is 4th in WS all time if I'm not mistaken.

they are two players who make us ask ourselves that interesting question. how much am I going to value advanced line? if you use advanced line as the basis of most arguments, you have to value Malone and Robinson. as posters on PSD we seems to collectively pretend like K Malones and Robinsons dominant advanced isn't as dominant as it actually is.

they are the two best examples of why peak advanced needs to be taken with a grain of salt, and why it shouldn't be used as the end all. if its the end all, they should probably be sitting in our top ten.

...team success matters. no matter how smart we try to get with it, no matter how much we try to deny it. success and story arch are just as important.

the NBA superstar is more important to his teams success then any other individual player in professional sports. more than the pitcher, more than the QB. because the NBA superstar is a two way player. they dominate both sides of the ball. i scoff when posters say championships are a team accomplishment and that players should get zero personal credit for their teams success. no singular athlete in team sports is more responsible for his teams success than the NBA GOAT level player, and to pretend like they shouldn't get a major tip of that hat for championships... well its just as ridiculous as saying that Karl Malone is top ten because of his advanced peak statistics.

Chronz
07-25-2014, 02:34 PM
Karl Malone and David Robinson are two players who absolutely dominate statistically

Until the playoffs roll around

Bruno
07-25-2014, 02:35 PM
Until the playoffs roll around

touche. I champion the real season as much as anyone.

YAALREADYKNO
07-25-2014, 02:37 PM
Karl Malone and David Robinson are two players who absolutely dominate statistically who are very difficult to properly gauge. based on the way people talk about Hakeem, you'd think he has Robinsons numbers. Based on the way people talk about Robinson, you'd think he has the numbers that Hakeem actually put up.

fans who prioritize peak advanced statistics above all else have no choice but to put Robinson and Malone above other players still available. Robinson is one of the all time league leaders in WS/48 and Karl is 4th in WS all time if I'm not mistaken.

they are two players who make us ask ourselves that interesting question. how much am I going to value advanced line? if you use advanced line as the basis of most arguments, you have to value Malone and Robinson. as posters on PSD we seems to collectively pretend like K Malones and Robinsons dominant advanced isn't as dominant as it actually is.

they are the two best examples of why peak advanced needs to be taken with a grain of salt, and why it shouldn't be used as the end all. if its the end all, they should probably be sitting in our top ten.

...team success matters. no matter how smart we try to get with it, no matter how much we try to deny it. success and story arch are just as important.

the NBA superstar is more important to his teams success then any other individual player in professional sports. more than the pitcher, more than the QB. because the NBA superstar is a two way player. they dominate both sides of the ball. i scoff when posters say championships are a team accomplishment and that players should get zero personal credit for their teams success. no singular athlete in team sports is more responsible for his teams success than the NBA GOAT level player, and to pretend like they shouldn't get a major tip of that hat for championships... well its just as ridiculous as saying that Karl Malone is top ten because of his advanced peak statistics.

agreed 100% two stat sheet stuffing guys in the regular season who always came up short in the playoffs

ManRam
07-25-2014, 03:35 PM
1. This is a three day poll because a) I don't wanna have to make this on a Sunday, because sometimes I'm not around on Sundays b) it might be an interesting vote

2. No one nominated anyone, so no one new is on the list...if you don't like not seeing someone's name, just say "I nominate: _______".

3. I'm sticking with West. I absolutely think a vote for either he or Moses is 100% justified. Dr. J probably is right behind them. I just think West was the best when it counted most, and very little separates the three in the regular season. Moses' longevity is a bit overstated because there were a ton of unproductive years there. I understand favoring either of those two over West because of the fact they played in significantly more games, but I just give more credence to that individual playoff play. Not that the other two were bad. Each were 3x MVPs for a reason. I do think West's 65 and 66 seasons best Moses' top seasons, though they're certainly very tight at least statistically. Sure, he doesn't have 3 MVPs like the other two, but he was losing out to guys like Russell and Wilt. It happens. His peak was perfectly comparable IMO.

I'm not terribly passionate about this one in all honesty. It's getting really tight right here. There are good arguments to be made for all 3. I just mostly am bothered that Oscar won the last round without a single person really laying out a compelling argument.

Raidaz4Life
07-25-2014, 04:19 PM
I'll be going with Karl from here on out if not to balance out the lack of respect he is shown on PSD.

THE MTL
07-25-2014, 11:21 PM
Dr. J for me. He's so underrated in this forum. His NBA career was special but his ABA which everyone completely disregards is one of the greatest peaks of all time

Shammyguy3
07-25-2014, 11:35 PM
An issue with Erving is he wasn't a two-way player, which both West/Moses were. I can see him going immediately after both of those two guys, but no sooner

Chronz
07-26-2014, 12:33 AM
I just mostly am bothered that Oscar won the last round without a single person really laying out a compelling argument.
Should have a best Peak segment where only those who bother to defend their votes get to actually vote. The people I elected for the GOAT project are a great start for a committee IMO.

valade16
07-26-2014, 12:54 AM
Dr. J for me. He's so underrated in this forum. His NBA career was special but his ABA which everyone completely disregards is one of the greatest peaks of all time

But part of that peak is because he was facing inferior talent. The ABA just didn't have the same depth of talent and it's obvious by the fact nearly every players stats were superior in the ABA.

Raidaz4Life
07-26-2014, 11:27 AM
But part of that peak is because he was facing inferior talent. The ABA just didn't have the same depth of talent and it's obvious by the fact nearly every players stats were superior in the ABA.

Agreed, not a huge proponent of using ABA stats in an all-time argument.

Bruno
07-26-2014, 02:40 PM
did DR. J have to deal with "hell never be as good as Jerry West" type stuff?

NYKalltheway
07-26-2014, 02:51 PM
did DR. J have to deal with "hell never be as good as Jerry West" type stuff?

The comparison was with Elgin Baylor.

Ebbs
07-26-2014, 04:40 PM
If Barkley goes before Dirk or KG I'll be upset lol.

Seizabmc
07-26-2014, 05:53 PM
I nominate Walt clyd Frazier .

Baller1
07-26-2014, 07:16 PM
Moses, easily.

THE MTL
07-26-2014, 10:21 PM
But part of that peak is because he was facing inferior talent. The ABA just didn't have the same depth of talent and it's obvious by the fact nearly every players stats were superior in the ABA.

Agreed, not a huge proponent of using ABA stats in an all-time argument.

Im not saying that ABA stats are the means all for comparison. Cause if it was than Erving probi would have went in the Top 7.

But you guys completely disregard it like it doesnt count at all. Erving put up TRRMENDOUS numbers in the ABA. Sure the talent was inferior but he put up 30ppg 12rpg 5apg 2spg 2bpg shooting 50%. Thats more of a product of his talent.

mrblisterdundee
07-27-2014, 03:10 AM
The Chairman of the Boards (third all-time in rebounds) did it for 20 seasons, three of them as MVP. He (27) torched Magic (23) and Kareem's (35) Lakers, and only lost one game in the 1983 playoffs.

NYKalltheway
07-27-2014, 04:58 AM
I love how people hate on the ABA when it's the closest thing we have to the modern game. The NBA back then was a much tougher environment. If you overrate guys like Lebron, Wade and even Kobe who's had his share of proper NBA basketball then you should have been doing exactly the same [and more] about Julius Erving, David Thompson, George Gervin, Artis Gilmore and on...

bagwell368
07-27-2014, 08:51 AM
I'll be going with Karl from here on out if not to balance out the lack of respect he is shown on PSD.

Hard to respect his playoff numbers. For say a 5 year period, McHale buries him.

bagwell368
07-27-2014, 08:52 AM
Dr. J for me. He's so underrated in this forum. His NBA career was special but his ABA which everyone completely disregards is one of the greatest peaks of all time

Like Wilt scoring 50 a night against guys that could barely make a D2 team today in the early 60's.

bagwell368
07-27-2014, 08:55 AM
If Barkley goes before Dirk or KG I'll be upset lol.

x2 on KG. Much closer on Dirk.

bagwell368
07-27-2014, 09:03 AM
Im not saying that ABA stats are the means all for comparison. Cause if it was than Erving probi would have went in the Top 7.

But you guys completely disregard it like it doesnt count at all. Erving put up TRRMENDOUS numbers in the ABA. Sure the talent was inferior but he put up 30ppg 12rpg 5apg 2spg 2bpg shooting 50%. Thats more of a product of his talent.

I saw Dr J. at the Cages in college, he was vastly ahead of everyone else. Seven years later (in his prime) he came up against Bird, and then what? Pretty close for two years and then Bird buried him and it wasn't just age. Other NBA players of much lesser note could post 20 on Erving in the early 80's. It's the competition or lack thereof that determines how much the player can produce - if the talent is there.

It's the prime kernel of the argument against Russell as the GOAT. Weak teams, weak players (in particular before Wilt showed up), weak GM's, weak Coaches - and oh BTW Russell played on the best team with the best Coach and GM - and faced at most 5 seasons where a credible team was put before him in the Finals or ECF. If Erving kept playing in the ABA he'd have amassed insane stats. Take a look at his advanced stats two years before and after the move to the NBA - was it the talent that dipped? Or the competition that rose?

mightybosstone
07-27-2014, 11:35 AM
You could make an excellent case for West or Erving here, but I'm giving the slight edge to Moses. West's lack of an MVP and Erving's peak production coming in the ABA are my main reasoning, but I also think Moses was probably the greatest offensive rebounder in the history of the NBA and just one of the most dominant big men of all-time.

alexander_37
07-27-2014, 11:44 AM
Karl Malone and David Robinson are two players who absolutely dominate statistically who are very difficult to properly gauge. based on the way people talk about Hakeem, you'd think he has Robinsons numbers. Based on the way people talk about Robinson, you'd think he has the numbers that Hakeem actually put up.

fans who prioritize peak advanced statistics above all else have no choice but to put Robinson and Malone above other players still available. Robinson is one of the all time league leaders in WS/48 and Karl is 4th in WS all time if I'm not mistaken.

they are two players who make us ask ourselves that interesting question. how much am I going to value advanced line? if you use advanced line as the basis of most arguments, you have to value Malone and Robinson. as posters on PSD we seems to collectively pretend like K Malones and Robinsons dominant advanced isn't as dominant as it actually is.

they are the two best examples of why peak advanced needs to be taken with a grain of salt, and why it shouldn't be used as the end all. if its the end all, they should probably be sitting in our top ten.

...team success matters. no matter how smart we try to get with it, no matter how much we try to deny it. success and story arch are just as important.

the NBA superstar is more important to his teams success then any other individual player in professional sports. more than the pitcher, more than the QB. because the NBA superstar is a two way player. they dominate both sides of the ball. i scoff when posters say championships are a team accomplishment and that players should get zero personal credit for their teams success. no singular athlete in team sports is more responsible for his teams success than the NBA GOAT level player, and to pretend like they shouldn't get a major tip of that hat for championships... well its just as ridiculous as saying that Karl Malone is top ten because of his advanced peak statistics.

Honestly not so much IMO if a player put up great numbers while being efficient and his team just totally sucks you can't really hold that against them.

Say player A on team A averages 26 points on 13/21 and they win the series in 5 games he played pretty damn well.

But on the other team player B averages 34 on 17/24 and they lose in 5, clearly player B played better but his team couldn't carry their part of the load.

You can't hold team success against player B.

alexander_37
07-27-2014, 11:52 AM
If Barkley goes before Dirk or KG I'll be upset lol.

I see no reason why he wouldn't TBH. I think Barkley can get pretty underrated.

ManningToTyree
07-27-2014, 12:52 PM
I would have Barkley ahead of dirk but not kg

YAALREADYKNO
07-27-2014, 03:11 PM
I would have Barkley ahead of dirk but not kg

dirk is better than both those guys lol

valade16
07-27-2014, 03:16 PM
dirk is better than both those guys lol

How so? Dirk's offense wasn't much better (if at all) than Barkley's but. Barkley was a way better rebounder.

YAALREADYKNO
07-27-2014, 03:23 PM
How so? Dirk's offense wasn't much better (if at all) than Barkley's but. Barkley was a way better rebounder.

look at the playoff numbers. That's all i have to say about dirk. Sure he wasnt the best rebounder like barkley or the best defender like a KG but when it counted most the man stepped his game up and that gets over looked big time and i would trust him with the ball in his hands the last few minutes of a game over any PF

tredigs
07-27-2014, 03:24 PM
.

valade16
07-27-2014, 03:33 PM
look at the playoff numbers. That's all i have to say about dirk. Sure he wasnt the best rebounder like barkley or the best defender like a KG but when it counted most the man stepped his game up and that gets over looked big time and i would trust him with the ball in his hands the last few minutes of a game over any PF

While true Barkley was amazing in the playoffs as well. It's a close one either way.

ManningToTyree
07-27-2014, 03:35 PM
I think people forget how great Garnett was in Minny. Dirk was never the two way player Garnett was at his peak

ManningToTyree
07-27-2014, 03:39 PM
Garnett has him beat at everything but scoring. He lead the league in boards 4 times won DPOY and made 12 all defensive teams. He was also a far better passer

Chronz
07-27-2014, 03:40 PM
Would you guys say that Dirk has a better resume/accolades than Jerry West?

YAALREADYKNO
07-27-2014, 03:40 PM
I think people forget how great Garnett was in Minny. Dirk was never the two way player Garnett was at his peak

no he is not BUT when its crunch time who would you rather give the ball to? It's dirk every time he's so underrated as a closer and is a better clutch performer than kg

valade16
07-27-2014, 03:46 PM
Would you guys say that Dirk has a better resume/accolades than Jerry West?

I don't think so. West did everything you could ask of a person. Volume, Efficiency, Longevity, Playoff numbers, etc.

If we aren't punishing Malone, Barkley, D-Rob, etc. for running into MJ how can we punish west for running into the Celtics?

Either West or Moses Malone are the best players left.

I think West was a better guard than Moses was a Center (respective to everyone else at their positions in NBA History) but the value of a Big Man makes it really tough.

YAALREADYKNO
07-27-2014, 03:54 PM
me personally i would've put jerry west ahead of oscar. Dirk's resume is up there and probably better than oscars but people are too in love with the fact that he could put up a triple double on any given night.

Chronz
07-27-2014, 04:00 PM
I don't think so. West did everything you could ask of a person. Volume, Efficiency, Longevity, Playoff numbers, etc.
I like to separate statistical assessments from accolades/resume. Dirk can lay claim to more MVP's (Finals+RS), he led this team to the championship and will probably end up with more All-Star/All-NBA type seasons (if he hasn't already).

But yea, if we consider overall statistical prowess along with their resumes, West should win easily.


If we aren't punishing Malone, Barkley, D-Rob, etc. for running into MJ how can we punish west for running into the Celtics?

Either West or Moses Malone are the best players left.

I think West was a better guard than Moses was a Center (respective to everyone else at their positions in NBA History) but the value of a Big Man makes it really tough.
Agreed. I voted West.

The Mender
07-27-2014, 05:34 PM
This list is already an abomination due to the fact that Lebron is ahead of Bill Russel, Larry Bird, and Kobe Bryant.

Chronz
07-27-2014, 05:37 PM
This list is already an abomination due to the fact that Lebron is ahead of Bill Russel, Larry Bird, and Kobe Bryant.
Care to elaborate on the abomination or do people think just naming names stands as an argument these days.

Simply put, Bird came in at an old age, saw his prime cut short due to injury and went ghost several times in the playoffs. Russell was a product of the best dynasty we've ever seen. Neither of those 2 have a crystal clear argument against Bron.

The only guy I can buy is Kobe. So wheres the abomination?

mightybosstone
07-27-2014, 05:37 PM
This list is already an abomination due to the fact that Lebron is ahead of Bill Russel, Larry Bird, and Kobe Bryant.

Why? His numbers are better, his peak is better and his accolades are every bit as impressive, if not moreso.

On a side note, I'm glad to see that I'm not the only Doctor Who fan on PSD. I figured there was bound to be another one at some point.

ManningToTyree
07-27-2014, 06:17 PM
I think people forget how great Garnett was in Minny. Dirk was never the two way player Garnett was at his peak

no he is not BUT when its crunch time who would you rather give the ball to? It's dirk every time he's so underrated as a closer and is a better clutch performer than kg if you need one stop to hold onto the win who do you want protecting the rim? It works both ways and KG was dominant on offense in his prime as well

Chronz
07-27-2014, 06:24 PM
Why? His numbers are better, his peak is better and his accolades are every bit as impressive, if not moreso.

On a side note, I'm glad to see that I'm not the only Doctor Who fan on PSD. I figured there was bound to be another one at some point.

His Dr.Who would rank higher than yours on this kind of list

mightybosstone
07-27-2014, 06:26 PM
His Dr.Who would rank higher than yours on this kind of list

:laugh: See, that's debatable. My fiancee loves David Tenant, but I love Matt Smith. I think Tenant is the better actor and has the more charismatic doctor. But Smith's seasons are better written, which makes him the more interesting character and he plays that part so well. I'm curious to see how Capaldi does. He's got some big shoes to fill after the last two guys knocked it out of the park.

Chronz
07-27-2014, 07:34 PM
:laugh: See, that's debatable. My fiancee loves David Tenant, but I love Matt Smith. I think Tenant is the better actor and has the more charismatic doctor. But Smith's seasons are better written, which makes him the more interesting character and he plays that part so well. I'm curious to see how Capaldi does. He's got some big shoes to fill after the last two guys knocked it out of the park.

Im usually not one to continue following shows once they flip main characters like that but Dr. Who has got that locked down. I got into it during the Tenant years, I never thought I'd get over him leaving, my girl insisted I give him a try, props to ur guy for making me a believer.

Because I dont have cable, Im usually forced to be a season behind, not sure where I left the show at but I plan on plunging back in eventually.

YAALREADYKNO
07-27-2014, 08:15 PM
if you need one stop to hold onto the win who do you want protecting the rim? It works both ways and KG was dominant on offense in his prime as well

We know dirk isnt kg on defense but Dirk's 2011 playoff run was more impressive than anything kg has done in the playoffs. KG is a great player and the greatest defensive PF ever but i'd rather have a guy who steps his game up when the game is on the line and that heavily favors dirk.

bagwell368
07-27-2014, 09:46 PM
We know dirk isnt kg on defense but Dirk's 2011 playoff run was more impressive than anything kg has done in the playoffs. KG is a great player and the greatest defensive PF ever but i'd rather have a guy who steps his game up when the game is on the line and that heavily favors dirk.

Dirk played for better teams overall. When KG had his shot he was past his prime, and asked to play a primarily defensive role.

Put it this way: KG on D is about as good as Dirk on O. But KG on O blows Dirk on D away. Also D isn't tracked or credited as much as O - even for advanced stats - consider that.

The Mender
07-27-2014, 10:35 PM
Why? His numbers are better, his peak is better and his accolades are every bit as impressive, if not moreso.

On a side note, I'm glad to see that I'm not the only Doctor Who fan on PSD. I figured there was bound to be another one at some point.

Long time no see Matt... Haha

Back to point though... Lebron hasn't had a finished career yet, while all of these guys basically have. And so far, they've had more impressive careers. Bird especially, along with Russel and Kobe. Rings talk.

YAALREADYKNO
07-27-2014, 10:42 PM
Dirk played for better teams overall. When KG had his shot he was past his prime, and asked to play a primarily defensive role.

Put it this way: KG on D is about as good as Dirk on O. But KG on O blows Dirk on D away. Also D isn't tracked or credited as much as O - even for advanced stats - consider that.

even if you put a prime KG on that 2011 mavs roster they're not winning a championship because dirk spaces the floor and he gives his teammates more floor space to operate. Also KG just never dominated offensively the way dirk can. KG would shrink in big moments while thats where dirk flourished. Sure dirks had more help but lets not act like kg played with scrubs his whole entire career in minny and lets not act like dirk has played with a dwayne wade or chris bosh. He had a steve nash who wasnt in his prime yet and michael finley. When those guys left dirk still gave led his team to 50+ consecutive win seasons and Dirk is by far the superior playoff performer. Duncan's played with better teams than kg you gonna say kg is better than duncan?