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ManRam
07-24-2014, 10:06 AM
Much like last time, we will use this thread to track the rankings and for a singular place to discuss the overall rankings. I will update it as we go along. Feel free to discuss anything you want to here. This is probably the best place to rehash arguments about things that have already happened.

The List:

1. Michael Jordan (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?868731-PSD-s-Official-1-Player-of-All-Time)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?868922-PSD-s-Official-2-NBA-Player-of-All-Time)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?869144-PSD-s-Official-3-Player-of-All-Time)
4. Magic Johnson (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?869307-PSD-s-Official-4-Player-of-All-Time)
5. Shaquille O'neal (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?869509-PSD-s-Official-5-NBA-Player-of-All-Time)
6. Tim Duncan (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?869984-PSD-s-Official-6-NBA-Player-of-All-Time)
7. Hakeem Olajuwan (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?870218-PSD-s-Official-7-Player-of-All-Time)
8. LeBron James (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?870493-PSD-s-Official-8-Player-of-All-Time&p=28768479#post28768479)
9. Larry Bird (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?870796-PSD-s-Official-9-Player-of-All-Time)
10. Kobe Bryant (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?871131-PSD-s-Official-10-Player-of-All-Time)
11. Bill Russell (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?871367-PSD-s-Official-11-Player-of-All-Time)
12. Oscar Robertson (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?871648-PSD-s-Official-12-Player-of-All-Time)
13. Moses Malone (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?871865-PSD-s-Official-13-Player-of-All-Time)
14. Jerry West (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?872059-PSD-s-Official-14-Player-of-All-Time)
15. Julius Erving (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?872272-PSD-s-Official-15-Player-of-All-Time)
16. David Robinson (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?872473-PSD-s-Official-16-Player-of-All-Time)
17. Charles Barkley (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?872662-PSD-s-Official-17-Player-of-All-Time)
18. Kevin Garnett (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?872859-PSD-s-Official-18-Player-of-All-Time)
19. Karl Malone (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?873070-PSD-s-Official-19-Player-of-All-Time)
20. Dirk Nowitzki (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?873349-PSD-s-Official-20-Player-of-All-Time)
21. Bob Pettit (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?873520-PSD-s-Official-21-Player-of-All-Time)
22. Dwyane Wade (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?873713-PSD-s-Official-22-Player-of-All-Time)
23. John Havlicek (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?873873-PSD-s-Official-23-Player-of-All-Time)
24. Patrick Ewing (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?874018-PSD-s-Official-24-Player-of-All-Time)
25. Scottie Pippen (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?874244-PSD-s-Official-25-Player-of-All-Time)
26. Elgin Baylor (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?874401-PSD-s-Official-26-Player-of-All-Time/page2)
27. John Stockton (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?874583-PSD-s-Official-27-Player-of-All-Time)
28. Clyde Frazier (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?874934-PSD-s-Official-28-Player-of-All-Time)
29. Rick Barry (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?875233-PSD-s-Official-29-Player-of-All-Time)
30.

FlashBolt
07-24-2014, 12:02 PM
It's going to be the same the argument with people claiming Bird>James and Kobe>James, etc,. I don't think this is necessary. We can all agree with the top 4 but from then on, I think things will get ugly.

Bruno
07-24-2014, 01:30 PM
nice.

ManRam
07-24-2014, 01:32 PM
It's going to be the same the argument with people claiming Bird>James and Kobe>James, etc,. I don't think this is necessary. We can all agree with the top 4 but from then on, I think things will get ugly.

That's fine. We'll see.

The last time around this very thread had 1,281 posts in it :shrug:

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?635088-PSD-s-Top-50-List-of-the-Greatest-NBA-Players-of-All-Time

mngopher35
07-24-2014, 02:37 PM
Overall I think the list is pretty good and it is close to mine (has the tiers exactly).

I personally would probably move magic down actually, but he has been at 4 on my list before (never know where to place him, could be any where within 4-7 tier Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Magic).

Then I would move Kobe up to 8 and Lebron/Bird down one each probably.

I also can understand why some would dislike that Russell is at 11 but that is where I have him as well. He is the first person chosen to not have a great offensive game. I can't argue with anyone who has him higher as I have seen the least of his career compared to any others on the list, just my opinion.

Those are the only differences I have with the list compared to my own.

RocketLoc80
07-30-2014, 07:18 AM
This is the most lopsided argument. You have people who have in in the bottom half of the top 10(Which is where he is ranked) you got some that`ll rank him top 5 even though he`s not really there at this point in his career. Then you have non-objective people who are influenced by Skip Bayless that won`t even have him at top 10 and will have him low as 15 to 20. So I want no stans, Kobetards or dikkridders in this page. Honestly where does Lebron rank all time.

DemarDerozan
07-30-2014, 08:23 AM
Wow it's been about a week since there was a Kobe v Lebron thread. This is really innovative Bro. Good job on your unprecedented offensive language and labeling as well.

YAALREADYKNO
07-30-2014, 09:46 AM
6-8 hes not top 5 yet

ThuglifeJ
07-30-2014, 09:52 AM
Higher than Latrell Sprewell, lower than Michael Jordan.


His ranking is controversial because some people rightfully hold against him his 'spoiled' route in the NBA versus adversity (always leaves) and competition (weakest east ever, stacked team up) that nearly every other great had to face.. It's not special to see someone always needing an advantage.

For me the way I picture how Dirk won his ring is as great as if the Heat won 4 their way.

But we still have some seasons before this is even worth discussing. Anything can happen then good or bad.

Chronz
07-30-2014, 10:02 AM
I had him at 10 with Russel

Animosity
07-30-2014, 10:05 AM
Why do people bother....Just judge him by his career when it is over. Until then it is incomplete.

Jamiecballer
07-30-2014, 10:45 AM
5 ish for me. Barring complete collapse top 3 is pretty much guaranteed.

ManRam
07-30-2014, 10:47 AM
The bright minds at PSD have him ranked 8th as a concensus.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?871758-PSD-s-Top-50-List-of-the-Greatest-NBA-Players-of-All-Time&p=28837457#post28837457

It's probably about fair. I probably have him at 8 or 9. I think he's ahead of Bird, but I'm not sure I can put him above Russell or even Kobe yet just because of longevity purposes. He clearly bests Kobe in terms of peak play, but if we're judging careers I do think Kobe has the edge because of the length of it.

Bring a ring to Cleveland and he'll jump. Bring two and he'll leap frog a lot of players. His career is still going, but I think top-10 player is pretty much consensus. He's had as good of a 5-6 year run as just about anyone not named Jordan

THE MTL
07-30-2014, 10:49 AM
I put him right around #10 and if he wins in Cleveland he moves into everyone's top 5. Seriously it will be no debate on that

ManningToTyree
07-30-2014, 10:49 AM
His ranking is incomplete

KnicksorBust
07-30-2014, 11:06 AM
His ranking is incomplete

To me that is a far more appropriate argument for someone like Durant who will achieve more in the future than he has in the past. At this point, Lebrons MVPs, statistical dominance, two-way play, and rings give him a complete enough resume to put him top 12. That is where the debate begins.

flea
07-30-2014, 11:17 AM
I have him just outside 10, and definitely not above Bird. He's still got at least 1/4 of his career left so I don't think that's a slight.

conway429
07-30-2014, 11:23 AM
not sure you know what lopsided means...

Slade123
07-30-2014, 11:42 AM
How many of these threads do we need? It's almost a weekly question.

TheNumber37
07-30-2014, 11:44 AM
Close or merge please

Adding the word Truly to the title doesn't change a discussion that happens every 60 days

ManRam
07-30-2014, 11:52 AM
I have him just outside 10, and definitely not above Bird. He's still got at least 1/4 of his career left so I don't think that's a slight.

That argument works for guys like Kobe, but not Bird.

LeBron's played in 55 fewer games than Bird. He'll pass him in games played this year. He'll pass him in minutes played pretty damn soon. He already has far more win shares. He's played in just 6 fewer playoff games. Bird has 12 AS Games, LeBron 10. The gap really isn't significant at all. He's already accomplished as much as Bird for all intents and purposes in almost the same amount of time.

valade16
07-30-2014, 12:14 PM
The only guys who have as many or more MVPs as Bron are

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain

The only guys who have won multiple MVPs with as many or more titles than Bron are

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Bill Russell
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Tim Duncan

The only players who have as many or more of each are

Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Bill Russell

The only player who has as many or more rings and MVPs as Bron but with a better PER and/or WS/48 is

Michael Jordan.

If LeBron James were named Steven James and he had retired 10-20 years ago with his exact same resume he would be viewed as a top 5 player hands down.

Name a player with his resume that people don't think is Top 10.

nickdymez
07-30-2014, 12:15 PM
That argument works for guys like Kobe, but not Bird.

LeBron's played in 55 fewer games than Bird. He'll pass him in games played this year. He'll pass him in minutes played pretty damn soon. He already has far more win shares. He's played in just 6 fewer playoff games. Bird has 12 AS Games, LeBron 10. The gap really isn't significant at all. He's already accomplished as much as Bird for all intents and purposes in almost the same amount of time.
You mention kobe in almost every lebron thread. You say LeBron "clearly" bests kobe in terms of peak? How so? Just stats?

savvy1803
07-30-2014, 12:38 PM
Why do people bother....Just judge him by his career when it is over. Until then it is incomplete.

This , still an active player , not retired , not currently enshrined in the Hall Of Fame , how can you " TRULY " give a ranking for any player who still actually active and playing the game ?

You can continue to throw rankings and ranking positions around all you want but these are all subject to change and for many of you "will change" until his career has reached completion and final assessment can be made . So to answer the OP's thread the only honest answer i can provide is .. his ranking at this time is TRULY "unknown" as he has more basketball to play .

ghettosean
07-30-2014, 12:40 PM
5 ish for me. Barring complete collapse top 3 is pretty much guaranteed.

Wow I'd love to see your top 5 list...

As for me maybe 10 or 11 spot.

flea
07-30-2014, 12:41 PM
That argument works for guys like Kobe, but not Bird.

LeBron's played in 55 fewer games than Bird. He'll pass him in games played this year. He'll pass him in minutes played pretty damn soon. He already has far more win shares. He's played in just 6 fewer playoff games. Bird has 12 AS Games, LeBron 10. The gap really isn't significant at all. He's already accomplished as much as Bird for all intents and purposes in almost the same amount of time.

Bird was a great college player and I factor that in as well. I also factor in how different the game was.

If you have Lebron over Bird for those reasons then you must have him over Magic, because Magic had a similar career as Bird in terms of length and peak (and both had great college careers). I just don't see how we can say Magic is a top 3-5 but Bird is outside 10 and under Lebron. I think it's very likely Lebron passes both Magic and Bird when he's done (especially if you're big on longevity) but I'm not ready to say it yet when among postseason lore and peak value Bird and Magic rival MJ in a lot of ways.

mngopher35
07-30-2014, 12:41 PM
Wasn't he just voted #8 on the polls here? I personally would move Kobe over him and have him 9th but that is basically where I see him right now. When you look at his career from an overall view he has the resume of a top 10ish player in this league already.

Lebron is already 18th all time in total WS in the nba putting him above Magic, Bird, Hakeem and one spot below Kobe (top 25 all time in WS includes all of PSD's top 14 players so far and probably more with Dr J, Stockton, Malone, KG, Dirk, Barkley all have good chances of making it too). He is currently 2nd all time in PER as well, although it may drop as he declines with age. For the playoffs he is 4th all time in WS already and 2nd in PER for his career. We could go on as these are very basic but I think most people know that statistically/production wise Lebron is one of the best ever.

Then we get to accolades where I will focus on two of the most important imo (FMVP and MVP's). Valade covered some of this but I wanted to point out that when combining these two accolades only Jordan (11), KAJ (8) have more than Lebron (6) while Magic is tied with him (Russell would have been way up there too if the award was around). That is some extremely elite company when it comes to accolades and those are very important one's imo.

I think at this point Lebron has done enough to at least put himself in top 10 conversation even though his career isn't over. It seems most people think about 8-12 is a good spot for now and I say 9th.

ManRam
07-30-2014, 12:49 PM
Bird was a great college player and I factor that in as well. I also factor in how different the game was.

If you have Lebron over Bird for those reasons then you must have him over Magic, because Magic had a similar career as Bird in terms of length and peak (and both had great college careers). I just don't see how we can say Magic is a top 3-5 but Bird is outside 10 and under Lebron. I think it's very likely Lebron passes both Magic and Bird when he's done (especially if you're big on longevity) but I'm not ready to say it yet when among postseason lore and peak value Bird and Magic rival MJ in a lot of ways.

I don't hear the college argument much when comparing NBA legacies. But it's a valid point: LeBron had a head start.

As for LeBron vs. Magic, you're right because LeBron can pass Magic in terms of games played this year too. I think it's close as well. I think Magic was a better player than Bird, however, though not by much. He did win 5 championships and I think that matters. I think LeBron's ability to defend SHOULD ultimately allow him to pass Magic. But I can't bump him ahead of Magic at this point.

PSD voted Magic at 4, LeBron at 8 and Bird at 9. I'd bump Magic down to maybe 6 or 7 and I could live with it. There's not much separating the three, but I do think it does go Magic first, LeBron second, Bird third. And that's the reverse order of how much I love those players. Bird was my first favorite player ever :shrug:


You mention kobe in almost every lebron thread. You say LeBron "clearly" bests kobe in terms of peak? How so? Just stats?

"Just stats"? No. Do I factor them in pretty significantly? Yes. They overwhelmingly, outside of PPG, favor LeBron. That matters. Stats can be very telling when you're comparing individual players. If you want to dismiss the statistical gap because it doesn't support the story you want to believe, that's fine. MVPs matter a lot to me when we're comparing individual players. My eye-test too, though, unlike many (including you, perhaps) I admit my eyes are quite biased. I think his game is a bit more well-rounded. I think he's currently out-pacing Kobe :shrug: Now, if he never wins again, even though he's back in Cleveland, his legacy might not be able to top Kobe's. We'll see. It's very close between them right now. I do think LeBron's peak has been tangibly better, but Kobe's team success and longevity balance that out.

Why bring him up? Because I have to figure out where Kobe is to figure out where LeBron is...and they're right about at the same spot. Same reason I mentioned Russell.

Hawkeye15
07-30-2014, 01:05 PM
7-10 range for me, and climbing

Coilz
07-30-2014, 01:18 PM
Right now? Probably 5-10. But projecting his career stats even if he doesn't win more rings he still is hard to argue out of the top 3.

Jamiecballer
07-30-2014, 01:24 PM
Wow I'd love to see your top 5 list...

As for me maybe 10 or 11 spot.
Everyone has their own criteria I suppose.

For me peak individual play is probably 30% of the equation.

Sustained peak play - 30%.

Longevity is maybe 15%.

Team success 20%.

Rings 5% as it is dependent on so many variables outside any one individuals control.

RateSports
07-30-2014, 01:24 PM
Current Top 10

1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Bird
6. Kobe/LeBron

Who I Would Take in Order for a Team?

1. MJ
2. LeBron
3. Magic
4. Kobe
5. Kareem
6. Bird

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-30-2014, 01:27 PM
This is the most lopsided argument. You have people who have in in the bottom half of the top 10(Which is where he is ranked) you got some that`ll rank him top 5 even though he`s not really there at this point in his career. Then you have non-objective people who are influenced by Skip Bayless that won`t even have him at top 10 and will have him low as 15 to 20. So I want no stans, Kobetards or dikkridders in this page. Honestly where does Lebron rank all time.

11-13. without a doubt not a top ten player. He will be by the end of his career tho.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-30-2014, 01:27 PM
where is the top 5 option?

because of that, you are a Kobetard

Top 5 lmaooo

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-30-2014, 01:28 PM
I have him just outside 10, and definitely not above Bird. He's still got at least 1/4 of his career left so I don't think that's a slight.bingo

5ass
07-30-2014, 01:47 PM
Bron 8
Kobe 10
PSD has spoken.

nickdymez
07-30-2014, 03:15 PM
I don't hear the college argument much when comparing NBA legacies. But it's a valid point: LeBron had a head start.

As for LeBron vs. Magic, you're right because LeBron can pass Magic in terms of games played this year too. I think it's close as well. I think Magic was a better player than Bird, however, though not by much. He did win 5 championships and I think that matters. I think LeBron's ability to defend SHOULD ultimately allow him to pass Magic. But I can't bump him ahead of Magic at this point.

PSD voted Magic at 4, LeBron at 8 and Bird at 9. I'd bump Magic down to maybe 6 or 7 and I could live with it. There's not much separating the three, but I do think it does go Magic first, LeBron second, Bird third. And that's the reverse order of how much I love those players. Bird was my first favorite player ever :shrug:



"Just stats"? No. Do I factor them in pretty significantly? Yes. They overwhelmingly, outside of PPG, favor LeBron. That matters. Stats can be very telling when you're comparing individual players. If you want to dismiss the statistical gap because it doesn't support the story you want to believe, that's fine. MVPs matter a lot to me when we're comparing individual players. My eye-test too, though, unlike many (including you, perhaps) I admit my eyes are quite biased. I think his game is a bit more well-rounded. I think he's currently out-pacing Kobe :shrug: Now, if he never wins again, even though he's back in Cleveland, his legacy might not be able to top Kobe's. We'll see. It's very close between them right now. I do think LeBron's peak has been tangibly better, but Kobe's team success and longevity balance that out.

Why bring him up? Because I have to figure out where Kobe is to figure out where LeBron is...and they're right about at the same spot. Same reason I mentioned Russell.
Stats and MVPs. Well I don't understand how anyone could compare two players based off MVPs. I don't even see how that could be in the conversation. Stats are a good way to compare players that have a similar playing style, play similar positions, play in similar systems, or just flat out have similar roles within the team. In other words, you can't say Tim Duncan is better than magic Johnson based off stats. Kobe and LeBron have had very different roles, systems to play in, etc throughout their careers. Also, kobe played with prime Shaq, who obviously cut into some of his numbers. So your stats and MVP awards are just something the people who really don't understand the ins and outs of the game use to compare obviously different types of basketball players. I actually watched Kobe play most of his prime games, never missed many regular season games and probably never missed any post season games. I base a majority of my opinion on context of the game. I watch LeBron play and see him out up alot of empty stats, fold and even collapse under pressure, and sometimes just check out in big games. Has kobe done that? Sure. But not nearly as much as LeBron and kobe been playing 8 more years I believe. I just wonder what type of player LeBron would be with Kobes fire for the game. Also, LeBron does many things not on the court in regards to his respect for the game that strike me as weak for someone of his caliber. But again these are my opinions. I will say that fans like you who don't hold the superstars accountable for what they do is the downfall of this game.

nickdymez
07-30-2014, 03:16 PM
7-10 range for me, and climbing
Climbing even after being embarrassed in the finals?

IKnowHoops
07-30-2014, 03:17 PM
I rank off of 3 year peak being weighed by far most heavily. 90% 3 year peak. 10% everything else.

Top 3

Any order

Lebron
Mike
Shaq

IKnowHoops
07-30-2014, 03:18 PM
Close or merge please

Adding the word Truly to the title doesn't change a discussion that happens every 60 days

Hahahahaha

jerellh528
07-30-2014, 03:19 PM
I rank off of 3 year peak being weighed by far most heavily. 90% 3 year peak. 10% everything else.

Top 3

Any order

Lebron
Mike
Shaq

So you must have tmac and kd in your top 10 right.

Sactown
07-30-2014, 03:19 PM
Climbing even after being embarrassed in the finals?
He wasn't embarrased.. the rest of the cast was dreadful.. he posted 30-10-5 in the close out game .

Don't be a troll

IKnowHoops
07-30-2014, 03:20 PM
The only guys who have as many or more MVPs as Bron are

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain

The only guys who have won multiple MVPs with as many or more titles than Bron are

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Bill Russell
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Tim Duncan

The only players who have as many or more of each are

Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Bill Russell

The only player who has as many or more rings and MVPs as Bron but with a better PER and/or WS/48 is

Michael Jordan.

If LeBron James were named Steven James and he had retired 10-20 years ago with his exact same resume he would be viewed as a top 5 player hands down.

Name a player with his resume that people don't think is Top 10.

Exactly

ManRam
07-30-2014, 03:20 PM
Stats and MVPs. Well I don't understand how anyone could compare two players based off MVPs. I don't even see how that could be in the conversation. Stats are a good way to compare players that have a similar playing style, play similar positions, play in similar systems, or just flat out have similar roles within the team. In other words, you can't say Tim Duncan is better than magic Johnson based off stats. Kobe and LeBron have had very different roles, systems to play in, etc throughout their careers. Also, kobe played with prime Shaq, who obviously cut into some of his numbers. So your stats and MVP awards are just something the people who really don't understand the ins and outs of the game use to compare obviously different types of basketball players. I actually watched Kobe play most of his prime games, never missed many regular season games and probably never missed any post season games. I base a majority of my opinion on context of the game. I watch LeBron play and see him out up alot of empty stats, fold and even collapse under pressure, and sometimes just check out in big games. Has kobe done that? Sure. But not nearly as much as LeBron and kobe been playing 8 more years I believe. I just wonder what type of player LeBron would be with Kobes fire for the game. Also, LeBron does many things not on the court in regards to his respect for the game that strike me as weak for someone of his caliber. But again these are my opinions. I will say that fans like you who don't hold the superstars accountable for what they do is the downfall of this game.

This debate is as tiresome as it gets. You cape for Kobe, and I don't. I like LeBron, you despise him. We're never going to agree.

However, the crux of your argument is just as tiresome. The notion that Kobe has historically done better in the clutch than LeBron...or that one is hyper clutch and the other is a choke artist...that's just silly. There's nothing to hold LeBron accountable there. The last second shots, the stats in close and late games, the numbers in closeout games, and so on. There's no gap there favoring Kobe statistically in those regards. Your selective memory is misguiding you.

nickdymez
07-30-2014, 03:21 PM
He wasn't embarrased.. the rest of the cast was dreadful.. he posted 30-10-5 in the close out game .

Don't be a troll

Lmfao. LeBron gets no blame for anything. His blind fans don't hold him accountable for anything. I'm not a troll, you are. A reverse troll. I don't love LeBron, you do. I'm not blinded by ESPN, you are.

IKnowHoops
07-30-2014, 03:22 PM
This , still an active player , not retired , not currently enshrined in the Hall Of Fame , how can you " TRULY " give a ranking for any player who still actually active and playing the game ?

You can continue to throw rankings and ranking positions around all you want but these are all subject to change and for many of you "will change" until his career has reached completion and final assessment can be made . So to answer the OP's thread the only honest answer i can provide is .. his ranking at this time is TRULY "unknown" as he has more basketball to play .

Easily, rank by Peak.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-30-2014, 03:23 PM
Bron 8
Kobe 10
PSD has spoken.

Yes it has. All that does is show you how disconnected psd is from the real world.

nickdymez
07-30-2014, 03:23 PM
This debate is as tiresome as it gets. You cape for Kobe, and I don't. I like LeBron, you despise him. We're never going to agree.

However, the crux of your argument is just as tiresome. The notion that Kobe has historically done better in the clutch than LeBron...or that one is hyper clutch and the other is a choke artist...that's just silly. There's nothing to hold LeBron accountable there. The last second shots, the stats in close and late games, the numbers in closeout games, and so on. There's no gap there favoring Kobe statistically in those regards. Your selective memory is misguiding you.
Since I mentioned clutch 0 times, I'll take that as I wasted my time and would like to remind you that this is why I don't waste my time with people like you here. I don't despise LeBron, I hold him to the standard that you put him on. You can't take that, stop placing him on that pedestal.

ManRam
07-30-2014, 03:24 PM
Lmfao. LeBron gets no blame for anything. His blind fans don't hold him accountable for anything. I'm not a troll, you are. A reverse troll. I don't love LeBron, you do. I'm not blinded by ESPN, you are.

I blame the **** out of him for 2011...as should every one else. But there was nothing he could have done this year. He played fine. His team was just not as good as the other team. It happens.


The inability to separate team play from individual is where you're falling into pitfalls.

Hey, what's worse: losing in the Finals or failing to make the playoffs and finishing as a 7th seed during three season smack dab in the middle of your prime? No accountability for Kobe during those three awful years?

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-30-2014, 03:27 PM
Climbing even after being embarrassed in the finals?
He wasn't embarrased.. the rest of the cast was dreadful.. he posted 30-10-5 in the close out game .

Don't be a troll

http://youtu.be/Y02r-Dz5cMw

nickdymez
07-30-2014, 03:28 PM
I blame the **** out of him for 2010...as should every one else. But there was nothing he could have done this year. He played fine. His team was just not as good as the other team. It happens.


The inability to separate team play from individual is where you're falling into pitfalls.

Hey, what's worse: losing in the Finals or failing to make the playoffs and finishing as a 7th seed during three season smack dab in the middle of your prime? No accountability for Kobe during those three awful years?
Ok you're right. LeBron gets no blame.

ManRam
07-30-2014, 03:30 PM
Since I mentioned clutch 0 times, I'll take that as I wasted my time and would like to remind you that this is why I don't waste my time with people like you here. I don't despise LeBron, I hold him to the standard that you put him on. You can't take that, stop placing him on that pedestal.

You didn't say "clutch", but you said this.


I watch LeBron play and see him out up alot of empty stats, fold and even collapse under pressure, and sometimes just check out in big games. Has kobe done that? Sure. But not nearly as much as LeBron and kobe been playing 8 more years I believe. I just wonder what type of player LeBron would be with Kobes fire for the game.

You're questioning his ability when the going gets tough and suggesting that Kobe is much more superior when things get real...despite the fact that statistically nothing separates them in those instances. Despite the well known fact that he just OBLITERATES teams in closeout games and following up bad losses. I mean after every game this year where he struggled or his team got killed everyone in the world expected LeBron to just come out and destroy. Even the "haters". Everyone expected it, and he always delivered.

After the the ridiculousness of crampgate everyone expected a huge game, and he dropped 35-10-3
After his worst game of the playoffs vs. Indy he came back and shot 8-12 and closed out the series with ease.
After the loss to Brooklyn he dropped 49 points.

And EVERYONE expected this. What does that say about him? It's not telling me that he has no fire. It's telling me he cranks **** up when it's needed and goes for the kill.

nickdymez
07-30-2014, 03:30 PM
You didn't say "clutch", but you said this.



You're questioning his ability when the going gets tough and suggesting that Kobe is much more superior when things get real...despite the fact that statistically nothing separates them in those instances. Despite the well known fact that he just OBLITERATES teams in closeout games and following up bad losses. I mean after every game this year where he struggled or his team got killed everyone in the world expected LeBron to just come out and destroy. Even the "haters". Everyone expected it, and he always delivered.

After the the ridiculousness of crampgate everyone expected a huge game, and he dropped 35-10-3
After his worst game of the playoffs vs. Indy he came back and shot 8-12 and closed out the series with ease.
After the loss to Brooklyn he dropped 49 points.

And EVERYONE expected this. What does that say about him? It's not telling me that he has no fire. It's telling me he cranks **** up when it's needed and goes for the kill.
You're right bro. Forgive me.

ManRam
07-30-2014, 03:33 PM
Ok you're right. LeBron gets no blame.

Dodging questions again. I see!

Do you blame Kobe single-handily for every year his team didn't win the Finals? No. Should you? No. Same with LeBron. Sometimes players don't do enough and lose. Sometimes players do enough and lose. There's a difference and you can distinguish the two.

Come on man...you're better than this. There are arguments to be made for Kobe over LeBron, and as I said I think little separates them...but you're not making to arguments you need to.

I respect the **** out of Kobe. He has a killer instinct that makes most everyone enviable. There's no denying it. But pretending LeBron is some mental midget is sooooooo 20010.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-30-2014, 03:34 PM
Lmfao. LeBron gets no blame for anything. His blind fans don't hold him accountable for anything. I'm not a troll, you are. A reverse troll. I don't love LeBron, you do. I'm not blinded by ESPN, you are.

I blame the **** out of him for 2010...as should every one else. But there was nothing he could have done this year. He played fine. His team was just not as good as the other team. It happens.


The inability to separate team play from individual is where you're falling into pitfalls.

Hey, what's worse: losing in the Finals or failing to make the playoffs and finishing as a 7th seed during three season smack dab in the middle of your prime? No accountability for Kobe during those three awful years?

He has a finals record of 11-16. Sorry, but when it matters most and when he faces good competition he's not dominate. You can say whatever you like but there's no hiding the truth.

ManRam
07-30-2014, 03:39 PM
He has a finals record of 11-16. Sorry, but when it matters most and when he faces good competition he's not dominate. You can say whatever you like but there's no hiding the truth.

Did he have any business winning in 2007? The fact that he and the Cavs got there is a miracle on its own. They overachieved like crazy just to get there.
2011 was bad. Again, he deserves **** for that. It's a black eye on his career.
I clarified my stance on 2014.

But again, the notion that a Finals loss is something so terrible is silly. It's the second best result there is. It's better than an ECF loss. It's better than a second round loss. It's better than a first round loss. It's better than missing the playoffs. These great players have ALL had some of that in their primes.


Again. This is a tired debate between posters who have had this tired debate a million times. Why do we even bother?

nickdymez
07-30-2014, 03:39 PM
Dodging questions again. I see!

Do you blame Kobe single-handily for every year his team didn't win the Finals? No. Should you? No. Same with LeBron. Sometimes players don't do enough and lose. Sometimes players do enough and lose. There's a difference and you can distinguish the two.

Come on man...you're better than this. There are arguments to be made for Kobe over LeBron, and as I said I think little separates them...but you're not making to arguments you need to.
Like I say to all you guys on here who think you do this for a living, it doesn't really matter what Psd thinks of my opinion at all. What your saying to me means nothing because you hate Kobe and love LeBron. You make every single excuse in the book for LeBron. I've never seen anything like this. Do I blame Kobe? Yea when he does things that a leader shouldn't do, like not shoot in a half of a game. He's the leader of the team. You guys want to give LeBron credit for all the good, but no responsibility for the bad. There was a game in the finals where LeBron didn't score in the second half, or like 4 points or something silly. Instead of him finding other ways, you say "well the Spurs are just good". Lol. It's ridiculous.

nickdymez
07-30-2014, 03:40 PM
Did he have any business winning in 2007? The fact that he and the Cavs got there is a miracle on its own. They overachieved like crazy just to get there.
2011 was bad. Again, he deserves **** for that. It's a black eye on his career.
I clarified my stance on 2014.

But again, the notion that a Finals loss is something so terrible is silly. It's the second best result there is. It's better than an ECF loss. It's better than a second round loss. It's better than a first round loss. It's better than missing the playoffs. These great players have ALL had some of that in their primes.


Again. This is a tired debate between posters who have had this tired debate a million times. Why do we even bother?
More excuses. The King of excuses

IKnowHoops
07-30-2014, 03:41 PM
So you must have tmac and kd in your top 10 right.

Top 10
1. Lebron
2. Mike
3. Shaq
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Drob
7. Hakeem
8. Duncan
9. Garnett
10. Durant
11. Kobe
12. Wade
13. Tmac
14. Big O
15. Malone
16. Barkley
17. Magic
18. Bird
19. CP3
20. Dr. J

bucketss
07-30-2014, 03:44 PM
top 5.

nickdymez
07-30-2014, 03:45 PM
I'll give an example. LeBron gets praised for his elite defense for guarding guys like D. Rose and Rondo. Smaller guys. But when khawai and bigger guys are torching the heat, why no defense from LeBron? The man is 6'8 270 and runs a 4'4. He can't guard someone bigger? It's no passion. He's just out there putting up great numbers. And his finals record proves it

flea
07-30-2014, 03:48 PM
People who say Lebron has ever had elite defense are misguided.

YAALREADYKNO
07-30-2014, 03:48 PM
Top 10
1. Lebron
2. Mike
3. Shaq
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Drob
7. Hakeem
8. Duncan
9. Garnett
10. Durant
11. Kobe
12. Wade
13. Tmac
14. Big O
15. Malone
16. Barkley
17. Magic
18. Bird
19. CP3
20. Dr. J


is this your top 20?

XpLiCiTT
07-30-2014, 03:51 PM
Like I say to all you guys on here who think you do this for a living, it doesn't really matter what Psd thinks of my opinion at all. What your saying to me means nothing because you hate Kobe and love LeBron. You make every single excuse in the book for LeBron. I've never seen anything like this. Do I blame Kobe? Yea when he does things that a leader shouldn't do, like not shoot in a half of a game. He's the leader of the team. You guys want to give LeBron credit for all the good, but no responsibility for the bad. There was a game in the finals where LeBron didn't score in the second half, or like 4 points or something silly. Instead of him finding other ways, you say "well the Spurs are just good". Lol. It's ridiculous.

I love Kobe and I love LeBron. LeBron deserves a lot of **** for the 2011 Finals, he also deserves **** for a lot of other things in certain games. The thing about haters on PSD is they hold things against him such as losing in the 2007 finals against the Spurs when he played for the Cavs and was 22 years old. The criticisms are comical most of the time.

Do you hold it against Kobe that after Shaqs departure he missed the playoffs completely and lost in the first round of the playoffs the following 2 years? Or is that not his fault?

IKnowHoops
07-30-2014, 03:53 PM
Top 10
1. Lebron
2. Mike
3. Shaq
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Drob
7. Hakeem
8. Duncan
9. Garnett
10. Durant
11. Kobe
12. Wade
13. Tmac
14. Big O
15. Malone
16. Barkley
17. Magic
18. Bird
19. CP3
20. Dr. J

Moses
AI

would be in my bottom 5 on any given day.

ThuglifeJ
07-30-2014, 04:09 PM
I have him just outside 10, and definitely not above Bird. He's still got at least 1/4 of his career left so I don't think that's a slight.

That argument works for guys like Kobe, but not Bird.

LeBron's played in 55 fewer games than Bird. He'll pass him in games played this year. He'll pass him in minutes played pretty damn soon. He already has far more win shares. He's played in just 6 fewer playoff games. Bird has 12 AS Games, LeBron 10. The gap really isn't significant at all. He's already accomplished as much as Bird for all intents and purposes in almost the same amount of time.

Personally I'd put Bird auto top 5 and ahead of Magic,

Its unfortunate for back problems and short career. Stats are against me putting him 3rd but he's the best competitor of all time. Kobe Jordan couldn't even top birds advantages he'd get with his confidence and mind games

Top 5 passing ability and shooter ever

savvy1803
07-30-2014, 05:05 PM
Easily, rank by Peak.

Interesting how easily you came to this conclusion , even more interesting how easily you have vaulted the number one player on your top 20 list over the entire player membership of the Basketball Hall Of Fame , you certainly know your hoops and i salute you :cheers: .

FlashBolt
07-30-2014, 05:52 PM
KD's last season was a top 10 season IMO... You're watching a potential top 10 player EASILY. And for all these LeBron-haters thinking he gets no blame, that is just about the most absurd way of thinking I've probably read in PSD. He receives the most hate. He passes to an open Bosh, gets blamed. Yet, Bosh doesn't get any blame for missing a wide open three point shot. And next, what's worse is how he gets blamed for losses in which he couldn't control. Wade/Bosh stunk in the Finals, there's no denying that. His entire team asides from Rashard Lewis played below their season's average. Can you honestly deny that? Some of you act like Wade/Bosh played like they did during their pre-LeBron days. They sucked while James did everything. Let me ask you hypocrites a question, if you blame LeBron for sucking in 2011 (which me and anyone else can pretty much do), why didn't Wade/Bosh get blamed even though they played well against Dallas? Because that's the exact same logic behind this. You blame the player who played bad and in this Finals, there is no doubt Wade/Bosh and the rest of the Miami Heat roster played below average except for LeBron and Rashard Lewis. The reason that video completely sucks is because that video would have made anyone look bad with that amount of help against that legendary Spurs team. Let's cut to the chase, 2014 Spurs team is probably a lock for top 5 greatest team ever assembled. Name a roster that was that deep and had Patty Mills outplaying Dwyane Wade and Danny Green locking down Dwyane Wade? Any player who had to play with that exact same Heat roster would have looked bad because they were getting blown OUT! But hey, if you can truly find 30 points, 8 rebounds, on 56% BAD, sure, go and add that to your hate list. Illusionist calls people out for PSD being out of this world but if the odds are against you, that can only assume that YOU are the one who is out of this world! One last thing; ManRam, it's really not worth your time and effort to take those trolls seriously. From what I've gathered:

1) They cannot intelligently process information. It's funny because in other topics outside of LeBron, they actually use some logic to their argument. Yet regarding LeBron, it seems they throw all of that away.

2) Let's be honest, you take your time and effort to produce a well written response to disprove their opinion or even at the lightest, try and knock some sense into them. What do they do? They simply don't reply back with any proof or a response to counter your post. That is why they resort to simple short worded responses every time. They cannot with intent respond to your post because they have no answer to it! Hey, at least with Amost1er, he provides a response that took time and effort. These Amost1er-wannabe's unfortunately, lack an argument.

FlashBolt
07-30-2014, 06:01 PM
I'll give an example. LeBron gets praised for his elite defense for guarding guys like D. Rose and Rondo. Smaller guys. But when khawai and bigger guys are torching the heat, why no defense from LeBron? The man is 6'8 270 and runs a 4'4. He can't guard someone bigger? It's no passion. He's just out there putting up great numbers. And his finals record proves it

You mentioned Kawai Leonard.. You do realize that Spurs as a whole outplayed Miami - right? LeBron can't defend every and anyone on the court at all times. No one can. Pippen can't run around chasing Stockton while also having to put defense on Karl Malone. Against Kawai one on one, there is no doubt LeBron can lock him down. It's happened with big players as well.. We haven't really seen LeBron lock down the center position but when we have, he does it well. He locked down Pau Gasol and at times, Dwight Howard. We haven't seen this consistently because he's usually guarding the likes of PG, KD, and other wing players. The only player outside of a center who he can't stop is KD and that's justifiably so. No one can stop KD. Not MJ, not Pippen, no one. But if you're going to blame LeBron's defense against the Spurs - well, you'd have to be a bit more in depth with your answer. That was a complete team effort that required five players of the Miami Heat to play exceptional defense and trap those passes. Just because you're a great defender doesn't mean you are obligated to stop an entire team. Btw, Kobe had at least 7 years of lazy defense yet he's always been selected to the NBA 1st Defensive Team when he shouldn't have. His defense is overrated and it's been over a decade since he was actually an elite defensive player.

XpLiCiTT
07-30-2014, 06:21 PM
KD's last season was a top 10 season IMO... You're watching a potential top 10 player EASILY. And for all these LeBron-haters thinking he gets no blame, that is just about the most absurd way of thinking I've probably read in PSD. He receives the most hate. He passes to an open Bosh, gets blamed. Yet, Bosh doesn't get any blame for missing a wide open three point shot. And next, what's worse is how he gets blamed for losses in which he couldn't control. Wade/Bosh stunk in the Finals, there's no denying that. His entire team asides from Rashard Lewis played below their season's average. Can you honestly deny that? Some of you act like Wade/Bosh played like they did during their pre-LeBron days. They sucked while James did everything. Let me ask you hypocrites a question, if you blame LeBron for sucking in 2011 (which me and anyone else can pretty much do), why didn't Wade/Bosh get blamed even though they played well against Dallas? Because that's the exact same logic behind this. You blame the player who played bad and in this Finals, there is no doubt Wade/Bosh and the rest of the Miami Heat roster played below average except for LeBron and Rashard Lewis. The reason that video completely sucks is because that video would have made anyone look bad with that amount of help against that legendary Spurs team. Let's cut to the chase, 2014 Spurs team is probably a lock for top 5 greatest team ever assembled. Name a roster that was that deep and had Patty Mills outplaying Dwyane Wade and Danny Green locking down Dwyane Wade? Any player who had to play with that exact same Heat roster would have looked bad because they were getting blown OUT! But hey, if you can truly find 30 points, 8 rebounds, on 56% BAD, sure, go and add that to your hate list. Illusionist calls people out for PSD being out of this world but if the odds are against you, that can only assume that YOU are the one who is out of this world! One last thing; ManRam, it's really not worth your time and effort to take those trolls seriously. From what I've gathered:

1) They cannot intelligently process information. It's funny because in other topics outside of LeBron, they actually use some logic to their argument. Yet regarding LeBron, it seems they throw all of that away.

2) Let's be honest, you take your time and effort to produce a well written response to disprove their opinion or even at the lightest, try and knock some sense into them. What do they do? They simply don't reply back with any proof or a response to counter your post. That is why they resort to simple short worded responses every time. They cannot with intent respond to your post because they have no answer to it! Hey, at least with Amost1er, he provides a response that took time and effort. These Amost1er-wannabe's unfortunately, lack an argument.

:clap: :cheers:

IKnowHoops
07-30-2014, 07:57 PM
Interesting how easily you came to this conclusion , even more interesting how easily you have vaulted the number one player on your top 20 list over the entire player membership of the Basketball Hall Of Fame , you certainly know your hoops and i salute you :cheers: .

lol

IKnowHoops
07-30-2014, 08:01 PM
is this your top 20?

Yes, but know that I hold peak higher than anyone. Your best at your best is what Im looking for. 3 year peak or bst 3 years tells me that.

YAALREADYKNO
07-30-2014, 08:07 PM
Yes, but know that I hold peak higher than anyone. Your best at your best is what Im looking for. 3 year peak or bst 3 years tells me that.

List is kinda wierd how is cp3 up there but not dirk lol

nickdymez
07-30-2014, 11:21 PM
KD's last season was a top 10 season IMO... You're watching a potential top 10 player EASILY. And for all these LeBron-haters thinking he gets no blame, that is just about the most absurd way of thinking I've probably read in PSD. He receives the most hate. He passes to an open Bosh, gets blamed. Yet, Bosh doesn't get any blame for missing a wide open three point shot. And next, what's worse is how he gets blamed for losses in which he couldn't control. Wade/Bosh stunk in the Finals, there's no denying that. His entire team asides from Rashard Lewis played below their season's average. Can you honestly deny that? Some of you act like Wade/Bosh played like they did during their pre-LeBron days. They sucked while James did everything. Let me ask you hypocrites a question, if you blame LeBron for sucking in 2011 (which me and anyone else can pretty much do), why didn't Wade/Bosh get blamed even though they played well against Dallas? Because that's the exact same logic behind this. You blame the player who played bad and in this Finals, there is no doubt Wade/Bosh and the rest of the Miami Heat roster played below average except for LeBron and Rashard Lewis. The reason that video completely sucks is because that video would have made anyone look bad with that amount of help against that legendary Spurs team. Let's cut to the chase, 2014 Spurs team is probably a lock for top 5 greatest team ever assembled. Name a roster that was that deep and had Patty Mills outplaying Dwyane Wade and Danny Green locking down Dwyane Wade? Any player who had to play with that exact same Heat roster would have looked bad because they were getting blown OUT! But hey, if you can truly find 30 points, 8 rebounds, on 56% BAD, sure, go and add that to your hate list. Illusionist calls people out for PSD being out of this world but if the odds are against you, that can only assume that YOU are the one who is out of this world! One last thing; ManRam, it's really not worth your time and effort to take those trolls seriously. From what I've gathered:

1) They cannot intelligently process information. It's funny because in other topics outside of LeBron, they actually use some logic to their argument. Yet regarding LeBron, it seems they throw all of that away.

2) Let's be honest, you take your time and effort to produce a well written response to disprove their opinion or even at the lightest, try and knock some sense into them. What do they do? They simply don't reply back with any proof or a response to counter your post. That is why they resort to simple short worded responses every time. They cannot with intent respond to your post because they have no answer to it! Hey, at least with Amost1er, he provides a response that took time and effort. These Amost1er-wannabe's unfortunately, lack an argument.

Get off Manrams dick. This isn't 1st take. I said all i needed to say. I do not need any lengthy explanation to someone who is in love with another man. Nothing i say will change your minds. Why waste my time. Educated fans feel the way I feel.

JordansBulls
07-30-2014, 11:55 PM
Top 10
1. Lebron
2. Mike
3. Shaq
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Drob
7. Hakeem
8. Duncan
9. Garnett
10. Durant
11. Kobe
12. Wade
13. Tmac
14. Big O
15. Malone
16. Barkley
17. Magic
18. Bird
19. CP3
20. Dr. J



Can't be #1 when you don't have the best numbers in the season, playoffs and finals and also barely won due to a team choking in the end in your prime which is what happened. Not to mention needed a guy who won a title as the man already in Wade and also didn't win with the franchise that drafted you.

XpLiCiTT
07-31-2014, 12:44 AM
Get off Manrams dick. This isn't 1st take. I said all i needed to say. I do not need any lengthy explanation to someone who is in love with another man. Nothing i say will change your minds. Why waste my time. Educated fans feel the way I feel.

You dodge every response post just like every other LeBron hater. How surprising...

YAALREADYKNO
07-31-2014, 10:36 AM
Can't be #1 when you don't have the best numbers in the season, playoffs and finals and also barely won due to a team choking in the end in your prime which is what happened. Not to mention needed a guy who won a title as the man already in Wade and also didn't win with the franchise that drafted you.

it shouldnt really matter if he won with the franchise that drafted him or not lol Lebron isn't and shouldn't be #1 on anyones list but homeboys list is all jacked up anyways

ManRam
07-31-2014, 12:38 PM
More excuses. The King of excuses

There's a fine line between "excuses" and legitimate points. 2007 is the best example of that. How the hell is getting past the mighty Pistons as a 22 year old a bad thing? His starters that year were Z (still good, not nearly all-star good), Larry Hughes, Sasha Pavlovic and Drew Gooden! Getting to the Finals was a HUGE feat in itself. That's super impressive. Some of the individual efforts he had that year were legendary. He got to the Finals that young playing 45 minutes a game with such little help. Yes, they got destroyed by the Spurs but of course they were going to. That was a prime Duncan, Ginobili and Parker he was going against. He wasn't ready and nor was that team.

Defending him for 2011 would be making excuses. Saying "losing in the Finals in 2007 isn't a bad thing" is not.

And FlashBolt, I truly don't know why I bother. Some interesting psychosis going on, for sure. I just enjoy it...regardless of how pointless it has become.

nickdymez
07-31-2014, 12:46 PM
There's a fine line between "excuses" and legitimate points. 2007 is the best example of that. How the hell is getting past the mighty Pistons as a 22 year old a bad thing? His starters that year were Z (still good, not nearly all-star good), Larry Hughes, Sasha Pavlovic and Drew Gooden! Getting to the Finals was a HUGE feat in itself. That's super impressive. Some of the individual efforts he had that year were legendary. He got to the Finals that young playing 45 minutes a game with such little help. Yes, they got destroyed by the Spurs but of course they were going to. That was a prime Duncan, Ginobili and Parker he was going against. He wasn't ready and nor was that team.

Defending him for 2011 would be making excuses. Saying "losing in the Finals in 2007 isn't a bad thing" is not.

And FlashBolt, I truly don't know why I bother. Some interesting psychosis going on, for sure. I just enjoy it...regardless of how pointless it has become.
Because deep down inside you know what the "haters" are saying is true. You don't need that other guy flashback or whatever to validate you. You're a massively huge fan of LeBron and in your eyes he can do no wrong. I'm like that with Tim Duncan and Matt Kemp. But to dance around obvious criticisms only to justify your fandom is to bad. You want him to be held to the same standards as previous greats, but won't let him receive any criticism without your justification for it. So what if he made it to the finals, obviously the team was put together well enough to make it, besides the names on the backs of the jerseys. AI had comparable talent and he made it. The east has been wide open since LeBron has been in the league. Had LeBron been drafted by a team in the West, and had to make it through the gauntlet that's the western conference playoffs, then I may be more impressed. But I'm a guy who uses context when judging LeBron, not love or bias. Here's your cue to mention kobe.

Chronz
07-31-2014, 01:59 PM
So what if he made it to the finals, obviously the team was put together well enough to make it, besides the names on the backs of the jerseys. AI had comparable talent and he made it.
This is the first basketball point you make. AI had comparable talent? Where was the DPOY on Brons team? Bron actually contributed to his teams defense and it wasn't the best in the conference that year ala the Sixers. You do understand that talent is relative to the competition you face and when AI's Sixers won the conference, there was no team that was arguably on par with his, the Bucks barely won 50 games IIRC and they had the last ranked defense in the league, and that was their biggest threat. Bron's inferior team took on superior competition and he still won, thats why its a far greater feat than AI's.


The east has been wide open since LeBron has been in the league. Had LeBron been drafted by a team in the West, and had to make it through the gauntlet that's the western conference playoffs, then I may be more impressed. But I'm a guy who uses context when judging LeBron, not love or bias. Here's your cue to mention kobe.
If Bron was in the West he would have also gotten the advantage of superior teammates and front offices. It works both ways, if you were a fan of context, you would understand that. Thats why we focus on each individual situation and what they were up against.

FlashBolt
07-31-2014, 01:59 PM
Because deep down inside you know what the "haters" are saying is true. You don't need that other guy flashback or whatever to validate you. You're a massively huge fan of LeBron and in your eyes he can do no wrong. I'm like that with Tim Duncan and Matt Kemp. But to dance around obvious criticisms only to justify your fandom is to bad. You want him to be held to the same standards as previous greats, but won't let him receive any criticism without your justification for it. So what if he made it to the finals, obviously the team was put together well enough to make it, besides the names on the backs of the jerseys. AI had comparable talent and he made it. The east has been wide open since LeBron has been in the league. Had LeBron been drafted by a team in the West, and had to make it through the gauntlet that's the western conference playoffs, then I may be more impressed. But I'm a guy who uses context when judging LeBron, not love or bias. Here's your cue to mention kobe.

East was insanely weak back then.. To put it into perspective, Vince Carter and his lone self took Sixers to 7 games.. So did the Bucks. You don't use context because you sound like someone who doesn't even know half the stuff someone who is intelligent posts. "Drafted by a team in the West." Well, had LeBron been with a prime Shaq, there is no doubt they both sweep the West like a vacuum cleaner. So keep on complaining about the West.. Kobe wasn't even the best player 3/5 times of those rings. We criticized James for 2011, but what other years do we criticize him for? A 22 year old in his first NBA finals with a subpar Cleveland team against a team with an absurd amount of experience, the greatest PF, a top 1-3 coach in Pop, Bruce Bowen was known as a dirtier version of Shane Battier, Manu was in his sixth man prime area. Tony became an All-Star player.. Who did James have on that squad again that could have seriously competed against that? And 3 of those games they lost were actually pretty close. You need to come up with a better fallacy other than we just defend LeBron because we are enamored with him. Are we huge fans? Yeah. But what have we said that is biased? We have publicly stated that 2011 was all on him and they should have won that without a problem. What else can we honestly criticize him for? Did he rape your wife or something? You seem to think you're not biased but c'mon, anyone can see your hatred for LeBron. If he took a Cavs team that was weak (how many players on that roster are actually playing well?), that speaks to the fact that he CARRIED the team. Why isn't it possible he carried that team? Didn't Hakeem carry the Rockets? So what's your argument? Oh.. you have none. Back to those one word responses and the good o'le "You're just a LeBron nuthugger" type of responses..


btw: How many of the guys below on this roster are a huge part of a team and not just a role player/out of the NBA?

http://speedcap.net/sharing/files/06/f6/06f6145a02ed154cc6aee210d4b46d48.png

Yeah... just stop typing. Also, that year AI made it to the Finals, Dikembe averaged 14 points, 14 rebounds, and 3 blocks for the PLAYOFFS. Comparable talent? Right...

ManRam
08-12-2014, 12:31 PM
Just a friendly bump

Bostonjorge
08-12-2014, 04:09 PM
I love how kobe was brought up by kobe haters.

I find it hilarious when people say no player could of led Miami past the spurs in place of James. Just because James put up good numbers in blow out games. How many average players put up good numbers on bad teams or blow out games? James led the finals in turnovers so he played just as bad and was a non factor on D. Lebron lovers chose to ignore this.

In 2007 James was just in the right place at the right time. Kidd (twice) and iverson had accomplished this feat less then 6 years ago. There is a list of 50 players who could of led a team to the finals in the east. James only real competition was a fading old Detroit team who were decline fast. Even a declining Detroit team was still the best in the east. One year later with no injuries and same core players that Detroit team was a joke. Other then a fading Detroit team what team out east made Cleveland look like a non playoff team with out James?

mngopher35
08-12-2014, 04:56 PM
I love how kobe was brought up by kobe haters.

I find it hilarious when people say no player could of led Miami past the spurs in place of James. Just because James put up good numbers in blow out games. How many average players put up good numbers on bad teams or blow out games? James led the finals in turnovers so he played just as bad and was a non factor on D. Lebron lovers chose to ignore this.

In 2007 James was just in the right place at the right time. Kidd (twice) and iverson had accomplished this feat less then 6 years ago. There is a list of 50 players who could of led a team to the finals in the east. James only real competition was a fading old Detroit team who were decline fast. Even a declining Detroit team was still the best in the east. One year later with no injuries and same core players that Detroit team was a joke. Other then a fading Detroit team what team out east made Cleveland look like a non playoff team with out James?

Not sure about the first part but who would you replace Lebron with and have them win? Certainly no one from this season, and probably not Jordan himself. I think say prime shaq instead of Lebron might have gotten it done but what is the point of a hypothetical when part of it might be matchups/style. We know it would be extremely hard though.

In 2007 Lebron's team wasn't great and he got them to the finals. In that Detroit series he happened to give his team a 3-2 lead in the series in what was one of the best playoff performances ever scoring 29/30 cavs points to finish the game (4th on espn list http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012/story/_/id/8068148/nba-playoffs-top-25-performances-ever, 2nd on nba.com http://www.nba.com/news/playoff_top10.html etc). It isn't the most amazing feat ever but it certainly was a good year for James/Cavs not a bad year (which some try to make it out). Getting there was more than that Cavs team was ever expected to do and it was done because of an incredible performance from James.

You try and bring hypothetical into it but we know what happened each of those years. Heck you mention Kobe to start your post. How many people have questioned if 3 rings being paired with a prime shaq for 8 years couldn't be replicated by many other players (or if others fight with him)? Who cares, just look at what the players did with what they have around them. Basically every player has had years when they failed and when their teams have failed them. I don't think 2007 is either and 2013 is more of the team playing poorly in the finals than James (unlike 2011).

Bostonjorge
08-12-2014, 05:32 PM
Not sure about the first part but who would you replace Lebron with and have them win? Certainly no one from this season, and probably not Jordan himself. I think say prime shaq instead of Lebron might have gotten it done but what is the point of a hypothetical when part of it might be matchups/style. We know it would be extremely hard though.

In 2007 Lebron's team wasn't great and he got them to the finals. In that Detroit series he happened to give his team a 3-2 lead in the series in what was one of the best playoff performances ever scoring 29/30 cavs points to finish the game (4th on espn list http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012/story/_/id/8068148/nba-playoffs-top-25-performances-ever, 2nd on nba.com http://www.nba.com/news/playoff_top10.html etc). It isn't the most amazing feat ever but it certainly was a good year for James/Cavs not a bad year (which some try to make it out). Getting there was more than that Cavs team was ever expected to do and it was done because of an incredible performance from James.

You try and bring hypothetical into it but we know what happened each of those years. Heck you mention Kobe to start your post. How many people have questioned if 3 rings being paired with a prime shaq for 8 years couldn't be replicated by many other players (or if others fight with him)? Who cares, just look at what the players did with what they have around them. Basically every player has had years when they failed and when their teams have failed them. I don't think 2007 is either and 2013 is more of the team playing poorly in the finals than James (unlike 2011).

James performance was amazing vs Detroit no question. What I'm saying is we call James Cleveland team weak and point to the talent around him and say James had less then Jordan's bulls or magics lakers and willed them to a finals. My point is James didn't play any of those teams to make the finals. Excluding a old fading Detroit team every other team out east made Cleveland look like the favorites. So how is James leading the best team out east more amazing then jordan leading the beast team out east to the finals?

mngopher35
08-12-2014, 06:04 PM
James performance was amazing vs Detroit no question. What I'm saying is we call James Cleveland team weak and point to the talent around him and say James had less then Jordan's bulls or magics lakers and willed them to a finals. My point is James didn't play any of those teams to make the finals. Excluding a old fading Detroit team every other team out east made Cleveland look like the favorites. So how is James leading the best team out east more amazing then jordan leading the beast team out east to the finals?

That cavs team drops to near the bottom of the league without james (haven't made playoffs since he left and were horrible the year after). Without Jordan Bulls made it to the 2nd round. There is such a ridiculous gap in talent between that Cavs team and the Bulls teams, that is the difference. Jordan however won all 6 times he made it though. He just never carried a team like Cleveland there because when he had teams like that he had more competition than aging Detroit.

That being said I don't know where Jordan came into this. Being compared to him is a positive for Lebron I would think.

Bostonjorge
08-12-2014, 06:39 PM
That cavs team drops to near the bottom of the league without james (haven't made playoffs since he left and were horrible the year after). Without Jordan Bulls made it to the 2nd round. There is such a ridiculous gap in talent between that Cavs team and the Bulls teams, that is the difference. Jordan however won all 6 times he made it though. He just never carried a team like Cleveland there because when he had teams like that he had more competition than aging Detroit.

That being said I don't know where Jordan came into this. Being compared to him is a positive for Lebron I would think.

Was trying to compare any star player leading the best conference team to the finlas. Wasn't trying to say jordan vs James. You replace James with any top 15 all time player and they beat the wizards and nets for sure. The Detroit team was good but already showing weakness. KG would of defeated that team with Cleveland. I'm just saying James didn't do the impossible.

mightybosstone
08-12-2014, 06:43 PM
I just realized there was a poll attached to this thread. But it's kinda stupid, Why isn't there a 1-5 option? And why such narrow choices as 6-8 and 9-10 and such a broad choice as 10+? It doesn't make any sense. Personally, I have him higher than sixth, so I can't even pick the selection I believe to be true. And it would have made far more sense to allow for voters to pick within a range of five athletes, such as 1-5, 6-10, 11-15, etc.

mngopher35
08-12-2014, 07:09 PM
Was trying to compare any star player leading the best conference team to the finlas. Wasn't trying to say jordan vs James. You replace James with any top 15 all time player and they beat the wizards and nets for sure. The Detroit team was good but already showing weakness. KG would of defeated that team with Cleveland. I'm just saying James didn't do the impossible.

We have no idea what any other player would do with that team in that specific year or situation. We know that very few have had better performances in a critical game like that (or even ever in the playoffs really, 29/30 final points is unreal).

Like I said we know what happened so why do we need all of these hypotheticals. I don't think anyone has ever claimed it is impossible, just that it was a good year. Others have tried turning it into a bad year even because it was a finals loss. In reality it was an accomplishment even if not the impossible.

FlashBolt
08-12-2014, 08:06 PM
Was trying to compare any star player leading the best conference team to the finlas. Wasn't trying to say jordan vs James. You replace James with any top 15 all time player and they beat the wizards and nets for sure. The Detroit team was good but already showing weakness. KG would of defeated that team with Cleveland. I'm just saying James didn't do the impossible.

And you're basing this off what? A top 15 player would have won multiple rings with Shaq and a top 15 player would also lose with that Cavs roster against Spurs...

Mr. Baller
08-12-2014, 09:27 PM
LeBron should be higher then 8th.

Malone going ahead of Dirk and Wade is pitiful

Bruno
08-12-2014, 10:36 PM
you guys overrate LBJ. slightly. you guys give him credit as if you've already projected the rest of his career into your rankings.

mngopher35
08-13-2014, 12:12 AM
Bruno I think he should be one spot back so I kind of agree. Should be Kobe/LBJ/Bird 8-10 n order. I think he gets there but he hasn't done quite enough yet to overcome Kobe's longevity. I think he has a good case on Bird already. He is still a (the?) best player in the game and just returned home boosting peoples opinion on him as well.

mightybosstone
08-13-2014, 12:14 AM
LeBron should be higher then 8th.

Malone going ahead of Dirk and Wade is pitiful
:nod:


you guys overrate LBJ. slightly. you guys give him credit as if you've already projected the rest of his career into your rankings.
To some extent, I probably do. But I wouldn't say I project anything unreasonable. If Lebron gave us 3-4 more seasons of prime and 2-3 more seasons of competent veteran play, I see no reason why he couldn't finish in the top 5 discussion at least. I don't even know that he has to win any more rings or MVPs in the process.

Now if Lebron ends up with 1-2 more rings and 1-2 more rings with 5+ more years of prime and starts cracking the top 5-10 in all-time career longevity stats, then he's pretty much a lock for the top 5 at that point.

FlashBolt
08-13-2014, 12:26 AM
If LeBron ends up with:
4 rings
5-6 MVP's
3 more years of his prime with 5 more good years (top 15 player good)

He's hands down top 5 and possibly top 3 behind MJ/KAJ.

flea
08-13-2014, 01:26 AM
I have a hard time saying guys like Lebron and Magic are top 5 all time when they aren't really 2-way players. Lebron is about average for a wing defender, a good team defender, but a pitiful post defender.

One of the stories that got lost in the Finals this year was his defensive decline, probably because the entire team got their ***** handed to them. He was never a lockdown guy, but he could use his length effectively for stretches against wings. In the playoffs he struggled, and ran around gambling a lot like a D-Wade or AI. I think a major part of the reason he slimmed up is because he wants his defensive game back. I think he should have just converted to PF full time, but I guess it's easier to stick to what you know - and being a good post defender is probably one of the hardest things to do (physically and mentally).

Chronz
08-13-2014, 06:17 PM
Not buying Bron being a mediocre defender, the heat got trashed because he can't defend everyone but yes yes declined to the point where he's better off defending smaller guys. I hope they improves next year but it's unlikely

NYKalltheway
08-18-2014, 05:07 AM
I wonder how you lot will react if the Heat win in 2015... I'm pretty sure that could be ground for most of you who have Lebron as a top 10 guy to have him dropped from there.

bagwell368
08-18-2014, 05:37 AM
It's going to be the same the argument with people claiming Bird>James and Kobe>James, etc,. I don't think this is necessary. We can all agree with the top 4 but from then on, I think things will get ugly.

FYI, I would never have Wilt as high as this poll. Too many disappearing acts in the playoffs, including with some very top notch teams. Suspicions of being under the influence of a gambler. A player of immense ability that in one part of his career scored and rebounded like crazy, in another played D and rebounded, but only in a few precious seasons did he play as a complete player - and even so, he was a horrible foul shooter (even by the standards of his time), and that never fouled out trip he was on seemed much more ego than anything else.

Then there is the whole Russell trip. Wilt usually played on inferior teams to Russ, but not always. The only time Wilt blew Russell off the floor in the playoffs was after the Celts and Russell had peaked, and Wilt played probably the best season of his career. Russ was not a match for Wilt physically, but his will to win chopped that difference down. Wilt simply didn't want it as bad as Russ.

I'd rather go with Hakeem, Kareem, and Shaq. If the opposing Center wasn't a moose I'd go with Duncan as well.

Shammyguy3
08-18-2014, 06:43 PM
I wonder how you lot will react if the Heat win in 2015... I'm pretty sure that could be ground for most of you who have Lebron as a top 10 guy to have him dropped from there.

I wonder how you'd react if Patrick Ewing ever won a ring. We can talk hypothetical situations all day.

NYKalltheway
08-18-2014, 06:47 PM
I wonder how you'd react if Patrick Ewing ever won a ring. We can talk hypothetical situations all day.

My opinion would not change at all. I'd just have happier memories as a Knicks fan. He could have gotten a ring, a matter of a few points. How's that making him a worse/better player? How can this seriously be an argument against or in favor of a player?

Multiple (x3 and more) rings can attest that there's some characteristic in the players who lead, that they have a willingness to go beyond everyone else, but when their team just happens to be overhyped and dubbed as the champion before the year has started, then that same something will not work in one's favor. This can be argued about the Bulls of 1997 and 1998 as well but having won 4 rings a short time before that, against very strong teams makes it a null argument. And Utah wasn't any pushover either, I'm just saying that the Bulls were the definite favorites for those two seasons before the season started and anyone who said the Bulls would not win back in August/September was living in a dreamworld.

mightybosstone
08-18-2014, 07:35 PM
I wonder how you lot will react if the Heat win in 2015... I'm pretty sure that could be ground for most of you who have Lebron as a top 10 guy to have him dropped from there.

If the Heat win the championship this year, I'll quit PSD forever.

FlashBolt
08-18-2014, 10:06 PM
FYI, I would never have Wilt as high as this poll. Too many disappearing acts in the playoffs, including with some very top notch teams. Suspicions of being under the influence of a gambler. A player of immense ability that in one part of his career scored and rebounded like crazy, in another played D and rebounded, but only in a few precious seasons did he play as a complete player - and even so, he was a horrible foul shooter (even by the standards of his time), and that never fouled out trip he was on seemed much more ego than anything else.

Then there is the whole Russell trip. Wilt usually played on inferior teams to Russ, but not always. The only time Wilt blew Russell off the floor in the playoffs was after the Celts and Russell had peaked, and Wilt played probably the best season of his career. Russ was not a match for Wilt physically, but his will to win chopped that difference down. Wilt simply didn't want it as bad as Russ.

I'd rather go with Hakeem, Kareem, and Shaq. If the opposing Center wasn't a moose I'd go with Duncan as well.

Yeah, I completely agree with you partially regarding Hakeem, Kareem, and Shaq. I believed their talent/skill were far better than Wilt during an era of basketball in which was more impressive. I just have a hard time knocking 50/25 down. It was evident that competition was really weak (how many teams? 8?) during that era. (I like to compare myself playing against middle school kids in basketball type analogy). Heck, if it wasn't for Russell, Wilt would probably have 7 or more rings.

JordansBulls
08-18-2014, 11:03 PM
If the Heat win the championship this year, I'll quit PSD forever.

What if it is Chicago who wins it? Or Cleveland? or OKC? or the Clippers??:D

NYKalltheway
08-19-2014, 10:36 AM
If the Heat win the championship this year, I'll quit PSD forever.

Who do you reckon will win?

mightybosstone
08-19-2014, 12:15 PM
What if it is Chicago who wins it? Or Cleveland? or OKC? or the Clippers??:D
Aren't you supposed to be dead?

Who do you reckon will win?
I dunno. I do think Cleveland wins the Eastern Conference if they stay healthy, although I wouldn't rule out Chicago as a real possibility. The West is totally up for grabs, but I think San Antonio or OKC are safer bets than anyone else. I think it's probably one of those four teams with teams like LAC, Houston, Golden State and Memphis just outside that group.

NYKalltheway
08-19-2014, 12:55 PM
I think Houston will reach WCF, no idea about the East. Most teams seem equally crappy :)

KnicksorBust
08-19-2014, 06:25 PM
Aren't you supposed to be dead?

I dunno. I do think Cleveland wins the Eastern Conference if they stay healthy, although I wouldn't rule out Chicago as a real possibility. The West is totally up for grabs, but I think San Antonio or OKC are safer bets than anyone else. I think it's probably one of those four teams with teams like LAC, Houston, Golden State and Memphis just outside that group.

No Dallas? They took the Spurs to 7 games last year and added Tyson Chandler and Chandler Parsons...

phantasyyy
09-03-2014, 04:55 PM
wow how did wade get 22.......

JAZZNC
09-05-2014, 11:30 AM
wow how did wade get 22.......
That's way better than Pippen being in the top 25.

vics
09-08-2014, 07:30 AM
Where is the option 1-5?

YAALREADYKNO
09-09-2014, 09:36 AM
Dirk should be ahead of at least 5-6 dudes on that list. Kobe should be up a spot or two ahead of 2-3 guys

canefandynasty
09-10-2014, 11:46 AM
wow how did wade get 22.......

#notsureifserious

NYKalltheway
09-10-2014, 01:28 PM
#notsureifserious

I'm not sure if you are serious :p

KobeTop5
09-23-2014, 10:27 PM
Kobe at 10? Absolute joke.

Most first team ALL-NBA selections all time.

Most first team ALL-DEFENSE selections all time.

4th most regular season points all time. (Soon to be higher)

3rd most playoff points all time. (Could end #1)

Led the playoffs in total points 4 times.

Led the playoffs in points averaged 3 times.

5 time world champion.

2 time finals MVP.

1 MVP.

Top 5 in MVP voting for 11 seasons in his career.

4 time all-star game MVP.

Most consecutive all-star games of all time.

Most All-NBA Total Selections won, career: 16

Youngest player to be named to the NBA All-Defensive Team.

Youngest player to win the NBA Slam Dunk Championship.

Only player in NBA history to score at least 600 points in the postseason for three consecutive years.

I could do this forever.

Kobe is top 5 all time and that is undeniable.

flea
09-23-2014, 10:30 PM
F#** yeah new Kobephile blood.

Jeffy25
09-23-2014, 10:41 PM
Kobe at 10? Absolute joke.

Most first team ALL-NBA selections all time.

Most first team ALL-DEFENSE selections all time.

4th most regular season points all time. (Soon to be higher)

3rd most playoff points all time. (Could end #1)

Led the playoffs in total points 4 times.

Led the playoffs in points averaged 3 times.

5 time world champion.

2 time finals MVP.

1 MVP.

Top 5 in MVP voting for 11 seasons in his career.

4 time all-star game MVP.

Most consecutive all-star games of all time.

Most All-NBA Total Selections won, career: 16

Youngest player to be named to the NBA All-Defensive Team.

Youngest player to win the NBA Slam Dunk Championship.

Only player in NBA history to score at least 600 points in the postseason for three consecutive years.

I could do this forever.

Kobe is top 5 all time and that is undeniable.

Except.............it's easy to deny

19th all time in PER
14th all time in Win Shares

23rd in all time playoff PER
8th all time playoff Win Shares
All of this, despite playing the third most playoff minutes of all time (i.e. he should probably have better rates if he has played that many playoff minutes. You illustrate all the points, it helps that the only guys who have played more minutes are Kareem and Duncan).

Kobe isn't top 5, no way.

Even PSD (this site) that I think has more than enough posters who adore Kobe, he was ranked 10th best of all-time

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?871131-PSD-s-Official-10-Player-of-All-Time

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?871758-PSD-s-Top-50-List-of-the-Greatest-NBA-Players-of-All-Time&p=28837457#post28837457

Those ahead of him?

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Shaq
6. Duncan
7. Hakeem
8. Lebron
9. Bird

KobeTop5
09-23-2014, 10:52 PM
I don't follow stat geeks and their formulas like a lot of drones do. Sorry. There is no stat that could ever be created that could account for variables or ever be as effective as the eye test. If I gave you a stat line right now, you couldn't figure out the formula for any of those geeky stats. Guaranteed. You could not give me an answer. Your precious PER has guys like David Robinson, Chris Paul, Pettit, Wade, Neil Johnson, and others ahead of guys like Duncan, Bird, Kareem, Kobe, etc. I mean my goodness, you would think after seeing Kareem ranked #11 all time according to PER, you would laugh and simply walk away.

Win shares? Laughable stat.

Like I said, facts are facts. Kobe is top 5 all time.

Chronz
09-24-2014, 12:23 PM
I don't follow stat geeks and their formulas like a lot of drones do. Sorry. There is no stat that could ever be created that could account for variables or ever be as effective as the eye test.
Same tired strawman argument the rest of the drones spew. Our "eye test" could come to entirely unique conclusions, that some of us have more in the way of objective evidence isn't something we have to apologize for. Some of us like to consider all avenues.



If I gave you a stat line right now, you couldn't figure out the formula for any of those geeky stats. Guaranteed. You could not give me an answer. Your precious PER has guys like David Robinson, Chris Paul, Pettit, Wade, Neil Johnson, and others ahead of guys like Duncan, Bird, Kareem, Kobe, etc. I mean my goodness, you would think after seeing Kareem ranked #11 all time according to PER, you would laugh and simply walk away.

Win shares? Laughable stat.
Not seeing why I should care about what you think about stats. That you think stats should do all the work in player analysis isn't a fault in using them, its sheer ignorance/laziness of the abuser. Those within the NBA utilize all available information, why would I purposely limit my understanding of the game?



Like I said, facts are facts. Kobe is top 5 all time.
Facts are facts. Opinions are opinions. Kobe being top 5 all time is an opinion, one you have done a very lazy job of supporting. Preemptive excuses do not exonerate ur hero.

Tony_Starks
09-24-2014, 12:33 PM
Kobe at 10? Absolute joke.

Most first team ALL-NBA selections all time.

Most first team ALL-DEFENSE selections all time.

4th most regular season points all time. (Soon to be higher)

3rd most playoff points all time. (Could end #1)

Led the playoffs in total points 4 times.

Led the playoffs in points averaged 3 times.

5 time world champion.

2 time finals MVP.

1 MVP.

Top 5 in MVP voting for 11 seasons in his career.

4 time all-star game MVP.

Most consecutive all-star games of all time.

Most All-NBA Total Selections won, career: 16

Youngest player to be named to the NBA All-Defensive Team.

Youngest player to win the NBA Slam Dunk Championship.

Only player in NBA history to score at least 600 points in the postseason for three consecutive years.

I could do this forever.

Kobe is top 5 all time and that is undeniable.

That kind of talk isn't going to fly around here man. Too many facts and making too much sense.

Just follow the crowd and repeat after me "Kobe is anywhere from 10-20 and anyone that thinks otherwise is a shameless homer."

Chronz
09-24-2014, 12:37 PM
That kind of talk isn't going to fly around here man. Too many facts and making too much sense.

Just follow the crowd and repeat after me "Kobe is anywhere from 10-20 and anyone that thinks otherwise is a shameless homer."

He was voted 10. Where you getting 20 from? Wats with the exaggerations these days?

Chronz
09-24-2014, 12:39 PM
Except.............it's easy to deny

19th all time in PER
14th all time in Win Shares

23rd in all time playoff PER
8th all time playoff Win Shares
All of this, despite playing the third most playoff minutes of all time (i.e. he should probably have better rates if he has played that many playoff minutes. You illustrate all the points, it helps that the only guys who have played more minutes are Kareem and Duncan).

Kobe isn't top 5, no way.

Even PSD (this site) that I think has more than enough posters who adore Kobe, he was ranked 10th best of all-time

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?871131-PSD-s-Official-10-Player-of-All-Time

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?871758-PSD-s-Top-50-List-of-the-Greatest-NBA-Players-of-All-Time&p=28837457#post28837457

Those ahead of him?

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Shaq
6. Duncan
7. Hakeem
8. Lebron
9. Bird

I would have had him after Dream. Then the list would be much less controversial.

KobeTop5
09-24-2014, 01:50 PM
That kind of talk isn't going to fly around here man. Too many facts and making too much sense.

Just follow the crowd and repeat after me "Kobe is anywhere from 10-20 and anyone that thinks otherwise is a shameless homer."

I heard that.

Kobe haters are seriously twisted individuals. They will punish Kobe for winning 3 titles as a "sidekick," while at the same time praise Duncan for winning titles while not clearly being the best player.

NYKalltheway
09-24-2014, 05:22 PM
Facts are facts. Opinions are opinions. Kobe being top 5 all time is an opinion, one you have done a very lazy job of supporting. Preemptive excuses do not exonerate ur hero.

Stats are opinions too :shrug:

bagwell368
09-24-2014, 09:45 PM
Laughable stat.

Like I said, facts are facts. Kobe is top 5 all time.

NFW. He's not even top 10.

Chronz
09-24-2014, 09:58 PM
Stats are opinions too :shrug:

There is nothing opinionated about some one having 22 PTS. So they are certainly more objective than unsubstantiated opinions. So even if I agreed with you, Im not seeing the relevance here.

NYKalltheway
09-25-2014, 08:19 AM
There is nothing opinionated about some one having 22 PTS. So they are certainly more objective than unsubstantiated opinions. So even if I agreed with you, Im not seeing the relevance here.

Let me rephrase. Presenting stats is nothing more than an opinion. Being able to interpret, analyze and explain the context behind stats is what's unopinionated. On PSD we usually just have a presentation of stats "PER of x >>>> PER of y = win"

Tony_Starks
09-25-2014, 12:27 PM
I heard that.

Kobe haters are seriously twisted individuals. They will punish Kobe for winning 3 titles as a "sidekick," while at the same time praise Duncan for winning titles while not clearly being the best player.

Truth. I've been around for quite a while and I've never ever seen Duncan get discredited for not being Finals MVP for every chip. I've never seen him get discredited any of the multiple years Parker was a MVP candidate. OR Ginobli was winning gold in the Olympics.

But when it comes to that Kobe guy, you already know the rhetoric....

Chronz
09-25-2014, 12:44 PM
It's getting to the point where I'm starting to think any new member spewing the same tired cliches is a dupe