PDA

View Full Version : Why can't Kobe be considered the GOAT?



Pages : [1] 2

Hulk6
07-24-2014, 02:20 AM
First and foremost I am not trolling here but simply wanting to get a a better understanding from some of the posters here who actually are basketball 'experts'.

I dont really post here often but i do read a lot of the forum questions and replies you guys post.

I started watching the NBA in 2002 and IMO Kobe has been the best player I've ever seen and I base that off his footwork, his athleticism, total offensive arsenal and his sheer willingness to win at all costs (which I think a lot of you guys take for granted).

Theres a lot of hate on this man and I dont understand why people do not consider him to be the greatest to play the game? Is it because Michael was such a god during his time and his name as well as influence worldwide makes him untouchable? Or is there actually something that MJ can do/did that Kobe can never accomplish?

I dont think i can ever consider the Lebron to be the GOAT and not because of the idea that he is 'mentally weak' or 'unloyal' the man is a beast but I put him in the tier with Bird/Kareem/Olajuwon.

To me there are only 3 people that i see mentioning as the possible candidates to be the greatest and those are Kobe-MJ-Magic.

So to keep this short: Why cant Kobe be the Greatest?

bucketss
07-24-2014, 02:25 AM
skill wise hes the goat IMO but the top players is not judged only by what you're as a player but what you have accomplished through out your career.


but i still have him 2nd behind mj.

Hellcrooner
07-24-2014, 02:31 AM
he is the goat ...............................

at driving talented big men out of town.

FlashBolt
07-24-2014, 02:35 AM
skill wise hes the goat IMO but the top players is not judged only by what you're as a player but what you have accomplished through out your career.


but i still have him 2nd behind mj.

Didn't you have Kobe like 90th about a week ago?

Too late for Kobe to be the GOAT. If he was 31 with these accomplishments, maybe he'd have a chance but he's 36 and it's tough to say he'll do anything spectacular at this point.

Hulk6
07-24-2014, 02:37 AM
Didn't you have Kobe like 90th about a week ago?

Too late for Kobe to be the GOAT. If he was 31 with these accomplishments, maybe he'd have a chance but he's 36 and it's tough to say he'll do anything spectacular at this point.

Thats the thing, why is it too late? Why Has everything hes done leading up to this point not enough to warrant the top spot?

jerellh528
07-24-2014, 02:41 AM
Because per and fg%

BIG worm
07-24-2014, 02:43 AM
Two things. 1st, you started watching basketball in 2002, that says a lot about your argument. And 2nd, metrics.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-24-2014, 02:45 AM
:laugh2:

The hell you have him 2nd?

Cheesesteak
07-24-2014, 02:48 AM
I'm a huge Kobe fan but he's still second to Jordan, because Kobe literally is Jordan, only a slightly crappier version of his Airness. I think Kobe's lack of MVP awards speaks for itself. In my opinion a player can't really be considered in the GOAT debate when he was only considered the best player once during his 18 season NBA career. Kobe's FG% has only ever been average also, that's not up for debate. I just don't think the argument is there for the guy. His tenacity and will matches Jordan though, which is what I love about Kobe the most. He's a killer!

FlashBolt
07-24-2014, 02:49 AM
Thats the thing, why is it too late? Why Has everything hes done leading up to this point not enough to warrant the top spot?

MJ he clearly doesn't beat...
KAJ was a better player and has more accolades.

Don't see him beating these two. I have Kobe 4th behind Wilt but I can't ignore Wilt's 50/25 seasons... That's too hard to overlook. I know it was a rather weak era but there is no reason to believe 30/15 wouldn't be his averages against modern or 90's era. He was agile, tall, athletic. Just the overall package in a center. No one here probably even agrees with Kobe being #4 but he's the closest thing to MJ for a reason. Nearly identical player to the GOAT has to mean something. He tagteamed with Shaq (most dominating player outside of Wilt?) but let's face it, had it been Jordan on that Lakers squad, odds are Shaq would escape with at least two of those Finals MVP's. The things Shaq was doing was just unreal:


2000 Finals: 38 PPG 2.7 BPG 17 RPG 2.4 APG on 61%
2001 Finals: 33 PPG 3.4 BPG 16 RPG 4.8 APG on 57%
2002 Finals: 36 PPG 2.7 BPG 12 RPG 3.8 APG on 60%

I don't think MJ would steal more than one away from Shaq.. Kobe realistically only had 1 chance to win the FMVP since 00-01 he was horrible but 02

2002 Finals: 27 PPG .75 BPG 6 RPG 5.3 APG on 51%


Not saying that he beats Shaq for FMVP but most likely in any other year, he would've been the FMVP.

abe_froman
07-24-2014, 03:02 AM
because he doesnt have the snuff statwise to be and he wasnt exceedingly dominant.he was just really good for a long time(not a bad thing,but not enough to be in the goat convo)

FOBolous
07-24-2014, 03:02 AM
at what point during his career was he the undisputed best player in the NBA? how can he be the "goat" if he can't even establish himself as THE best player while he's playing?

bucketss
07-24-2014, 03:23 AM
Didn't you have Kobe like 90th about a week ago?

Too late for Kobe to be the GOAT. If he was 31 with these accomplishments, maybe he'd have a chance but he's 36 and it's tough to say he'll do anything spectacular at this point.

thats true but don't you think that was a bit childish on my part? sometimes we have to think outside the box because thatís how we learn, thatís how we grow, right? We never stop learning. We never stop growing.

IKnowHoops
07-24-2014, 03:35 AM
MJ he clearly doesn't beat...
KAJ was a better player and has more accolades.

Don't see him beating these two. I have Kobe 4th behind Wilt but I can't ignore Wilt's 50/25 seasons... That's too hard to overlook. I know it was a rather weak era but there is no reason to believe 30/15 wouldn't be his averages against modern or 90's era. He was agile, tall, athletic. Just the overall package in a center. No one here probably even agrees with Kobe being #4 but he's the closest thing to MJ for a reason. Nearly identical player to the GOAT has to mean something. He tagteamed with Shaq (most dominating player outside of Wilt?) but let's face it, had it been Jordan on that Lakers squad, odds are Shaq would escape with at least two of those Finals MVP's. The things Shaq was doing was just unreal:


2000 Finals: 38 PPG 2.7 BPG 17 RPG 2.4 APG on 61%
2001 Finals: 33 PPG 3.4 BPG 16 RPG 4.8 APG on 57%
2002 Finals: 36 PPG 2.7 BPG 12 RPG 3.8 APG on 60%

I don't think MJ would steal more than one away from Shaq.. Kobe realistically only had 1 chance to win the FMVP since 00-01 he was horrible but 02

2002 Finals: 27 PPG .75 BPG 6 RPG 5.3 APG on 51%


Not saying that he beats Shaq for FMVP but most likely in any other year, he would've been the FMVP.

This is why Shaq is in my top 3 of all-time, and also why you can never say Kobe was better than Shaq. You can say he had a better career, but to say he was more dominant or a better player is ridiculous. Yo OP, this is all you need to see why he's not the GOAT. Shaq isn't the only one now, but he one of the 10-12 players who can say they were better than Kobe and have a great argument. But this is no argument. Kobe was never capable of getting better production than 38 and 17 on 61% FG. Thats preposterous to average in an NBA finals. Hats off to Shaq. Only one of those.

CityofChaos
07-24-2014, 03:57 AM
He's the best closer ever IMO. I've never seen a player other than Jordan or Bird maybe that thrives under pressure and isn't phased by it like Kobe.

Cheesesteak
07-24-2014, 04:01 AM
This is why Shaq is in my top 3 of all-time, and also why you can never say Kobe was better than Shaq. You can say he had a better career, but to say he was more dominant or a better player is ridiculous. Yo OP, this is all you need to see why he's not the GOAT. Shaq isn't the only one now, but he one of the 10-12 players who can say they were better than Kobe and have a great argument. But this is no argument. Kobe was never capable of getting better production than 38 and 17 on 61% FG. Thats preposterous to average in an NBA finals. Hats off to Shaq. Only one of those.

Too bad Shaq's career FT% is an abysmal 52%. He's arguably the most dominant center of all time but overall top 3 I wouldn't.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-24-2014, 04:01 AM
He's the best closer ever IMO. I've never seen a player other than Jordan or Bird maybe that thrives under pressure and isn't phased by it like Kobe.

Are you only watching him like 20% of the time then?

Quinnsanity
07-24-2014, 04:34 AM
Off the top of my head, I don't think there's a single area of the game that Kobe demonstrably performed better at than Michael Jordan. He certainly wasn't a better defender or passer. Jordan was among the best rebounding guards of all time when circumstance called. He obviously wasn't a better scorer, though I suppose you could say Kobe was a better three-point shooter (which I would disagree with on the basis that it just didn't make sense for Jordan to launch three-pointers when he was so damn efficient getting to the rim and operating in the post with that unguardable post-spin jumper, I suspect if he played nowadays he would've honed his three-pointer more because modern style just dictates it and he's a competitive SOB). Most of Kobe's moves are based on Jordan's anyway. Kobe is a fantastic player. He's just not as good as Michael Jordan. Or, for that matter, several other players. I have Kobe hovering right around the periphery of the top-10.

cahawk
07-24-2014, 04:39 AM
he is the goat ...............................

at driving talented big men out of town.

LOL's,but you are also right.
Shaq, Bynum, Dwight Howard, Gasol

JasonJohnHorn
07-24-2014, 04:56 AM
Everything Kobe does Jordan did better, so if that style of game is GOAT worthy, then Jordan has it wrapped up.

Jordan had a higher ppg average (per game and per36; and on less shots)
Jordan had a higher FG%
Jordan had a higher FT%
Jordan got more steals.
Jordan got more blocks.
Jordan got more assists.
Jordan got more rebounds.
Jordan got more championships in less years.
Jordan got more finals MVP awards
Jordan got more regular season MVP awards
Jordan got more defensive player of the year awards
Jordan got more rookie of the year awards


I don't see how Kobe gets an edge in any way over Jordan outside of a marginal edge in 3pt shooting. Which Jordan didn't do well until he was 26, but after which he ended up posting .500 from behind the arc one year. Despite Jordan's horrid first five years of 3pt shooting, his average percentage is only slightly lower than Kobe's.

P&GRealist
07-24-2014, 04:56 AM
thats true but don't you think that was a bit childish on my part? sometimes we have to think outside the box because thatís how we learn, thatís how we grow, right? We never stop learning. We never stop growing.

Did you lose a bet?

P&GRealist
07-24-2014, 04:58 AM
Everything Kobe does Jordan did better, so if that style of game is GOAT worthy, then Jordan has it wrapped up.
Kobe was the better shooter IMO. I think KB has him in the 3pt% and FT% departments. Kobe's longball and MJ's long ball just isn't much of a comparison.

But yet everything else is MJ.

And I think this thread as a whole is funny. :D

P&GRealist
07-24-2014, 05:01 AM
This is why Shaq is in my top 3 of all-time, and also why you can never say Kobe was better than Shaq. You can say he had a better career, but to say he was more dominant or a better player is ridiculous. Yo OP, this is all you need to see why he's not the GOAT. Shaq isn't the only one now, but he one of the 10-12 players who can say they were better than Kobe and have a great argument. But this is no argument. Kobe was never capable of getting better production than 38 and 17 on 61% FG. Thats preposterous to average in an NBA finals. Hats off to Shaq. Only one of those.

Shaq got owned in the 95 finals by Hakeem ad out worked and out passioned by Big Ben in the 04 finals. Also the guy refused to get in shape as a Laker. As great and dominant as Shaq was, he will never crack my top 5.

bucketss
07-24-2014, 05:04 AM
Did you lose a bet?

never lost a bet in my life.

Zefflin
07-24-2014, 05:08 AM
at what point during his career was he the undisputed best player in the NBA? how can he be the "goat" if he can't even establish himself as THE best player while he's playing?

It's hilarious knowing that you actually typed that

PurpleLynch
07-24-2014, 05:12 AM
Because there are players who were better career wise.

Kareem,Mj,Chamberlain,Johnson,Bird,Russell for example.

Kobe is still in my top 10 and his career is not finished yet.But no way he's the GOAT(And Kobe IS my favourite player of all time,I grew up watching him.

3ballbomber
07-24-2014, 05:13 AM
this, seriously, just needs to be shut down

P&GRealist
07-24-2014, 05:13 AM
never lost a bet in my life.
You know what, I know you're not a Kobe fan, far from it, but even though this is a charade, I can always appreciate good acting. It's time people didn't take this sports forum seriously, but rather poke fun about things and have fun. I like the new comedic you. Keep it up! :up:

(Just don't go too far with it ;))

FraziersKnicks
07-24-2014, 05:17 AM
I still don't understand why people say Kobe's the best closer ever and thrives under pressure and is the most clutch. Does everyone here just watch YouTube montages?

It's not even just the numbers that disagree with these statements, but if you've actually watched Kobe throughout his career you would've seen him miss more clutch shots than anyone in history because he refuses to make the correct basketball play and tries to make the hero play for his own ego. This is the Michael Jordan effect.

His will to win is great but is only overtaken by his will to be an egomaniac and drive some of the best players he's ever played with out of town. If his will to win was so great and dominant like everyone (read: Lakers fans) says it is, then why did he force a top 5 player of all-time and one of the most dominant bigs ever out of town so he could run the show in an attempt to establish his legacy? Surely if you wanted nothing but to win you would do whatever you could to keep Shaq around? Clearly his ego and being the team leader is a much better attribute of his.

Don't get me wrong, the guy is one of the all-time greats when it comes to his basketball ability and skill but people need to stop anointing him as this clutch, game winner, gun slinger, win-at-all-costs, deadly killer basketball player. All of these things are clearly not true and you don't need numbers to back it up.

When it's all said and done he's a top 10 player of all-time but that's down to his longevity and ability to stay relevant throughout the years, not the other things he is always wrongly crowned of being.

GoferKing_
07-24-2014, 05:21 AM
Why cant Kobe be the Greatest? Because Jordan happened.xD

nastynice
07-24-2014, 06:30 AM
Shaq got owned in the 95 finals by Hakeem ad out worked and out passioned by Big Ben in the 04 finals. Also the guy refused to get in shape as a Laker. As great and dominant as Shaq was, he will never crack my top 5.

Can't hold that against diesel, Hakeem was playing some of the best basketball we've ever seen from the center position at the time they played in the finals. That was the year dream completely and thoroughly destroyed the mvp of that year, d robinson, in the playoffs.

I get what you're saying, but its a bit much to hold it against a 4th player for getting owned by one of the best (imo THE best) center to ever play the game while at his prime.

Bostonjorge
07-24-2014, 08:38 AM
Everything Kobe does Jordan did better, so if that style of game is GOAT worthy, then Jordan has it wrapped up.

Jordan had a higher ppg average (per game and per36; and on less shots)
Jordan had a higher FG%
Jordan had a higher FT%
Jordan got more steals.
Jordan got more blocks.
Jordan got more assists.
Jordan got more rebounds.
Jordan got more championships in less years.
Jordan got more finals MVP awards
Jordan got more regular season MVP awards
Jordan got more defensive player of the year awards
Jordan got more rookie of the year awards


I don't see how Kobe gets an edge in any way over Jordan outside of a marginal edge in 3pt shooting. Which Jordan didn't do well until he was 26, but after which he ended up posting .500 from behind the arc one year. Despite Jordan's horrid first five years of 3pt shooting, his average percentage is only slightly lower than Kobe's.

U have to many wrong facts so your whole argument is worthless.

Bostonjorge
07-24-2014, 09:21 AM
Kobe has been called the goat by many legends,coaches and peers. Internet makes it east to prove since they say it on camera or are quoted.

Drafted out of high school and became an instant star and the NBA's next Jordan day 1.

Slam dunk champ

He came off the bench and made the all star team as a starter and stole the game with Jordan with out even playing the whole 4th quarter.

His first 3 full seasons as a starter kobe won 3 championships.

#4 on all time scoring list
#3 all playoff scoring list
Kobe will be #1 in playoff scoring with 1 deep playoff run #3 all time scoring with half a season.

Only player to out score a whole team(a Dallas playoff team) by himself in 3 quarters. #2 most points ever in a game. 3rd most in 40+ games(133) and 50+ games(26) 2nd in 60+ games(5)

Most 3's in a game 12 top
Top 10 in free throws and 3's
Top 15 in steals

9 1st defensive team tied for most ever 12 total only behind Duncan

11 all nba 1st team tied for most ever 15 total tied with KAJ for most ever

Most all star MVP's 5
1 MVP's
2 finals MVP's
8 conference finals
9 finals played
5 rings

Special player that's already in the top 5 in his peers minds. Let's see were he lands when his career is over.

WadeKobe
07-24-2014, 09:24 AM
U have to many wrong facts so your whole argument is worthless.

Lol. Such as?

ManRam
07-24-2014, 09:26 AM
U have to many wrong facts so your whole argument is worthless.

:laugh:

He literally only listed facts. Facts that aren't "wrong".

Re: your second post. Pardon if I ignore things like slam dunk champ and so on. But who are these peers of him that think he is the greatest of all time. Not just "great", but literally "the greatest of all time"? Not that other players' opinions are to be considered strong arguments or anything.



Kobe can't be the greatest because he simply wasn't the greatest. There is almost nothing he has and Jordan for starters. That alone rules him out of it. Longevity is just about the only argument he has, but if you go that route exclusively then there's Kareem who he absolutely doesn't have a case against. Argue that he's a top-10 player, or even a top-5 player (I don't buy the later, but I've seen people do it). But top-1 is just categorically false.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2014, 09:35 AM
His statistics don't come near GOAT status, and his impact as a two way player is beaten by a number of bigs, and a few wings.

Bostonjorge
07-24-2014, 09:36 AM
Lol. Such as?

Jordan don't have more assist or FT% then kobe. Kobe will also past Jordan in Rebs if he plays this whole year.

Jordan is the goat I understand that.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2014, 09:46 AM
Jordan don't have more assist or FT% then kobe. Kobe will also past Jordan in Rebs if he plays this whole year.

Jordan is the goat I understand that.

do you know how long the list of statistical numbers Jordan kills Kobe in?

Hint: It's a long list...

Bostonjorge
07-24-2014, 09:47 AM
:laugh:

He literally only listed facts. Facts that aren't "wrong".

Re: your second post. Pardon if I ignore things like slam dunk champ and so on. But who are these peers of him that think he is the greatest of all time. Not just "great", but literally "the greatest of all time"? Not that other players' opinions are to be considered strong arguments or anything.



Kobe can't be the greatest because he simply wasn't the greatest. There is almost nothing he has and Jordan for starters. That alone rules him out of it. Longevity is just about the only argument he has, but if you go that route exclusively then there's Kareem who he absolutely doesn't have a case against. Argue that he's a top-10 player, or even a top-5 player (I don't buy the later, but I've seen people do it). But top-1 is just categorically false.

How can u ignore what a player has accomplished? The records are kept for a reason and kobes name is on top of KAJ on a lot of them and when kobe is done he will have his name higher then KAJ on more of them.

U don't have to give credit to players opinions but there opinions is what will last and yours will be forgotten much sooner just like mine.

thenaj17
07-24-2014, 09:47 AM
at what point during his career was he the undisputed best player in the NBA? how can he be the "goat" if he can't even establish himself as THE best player while he's playing?

Between 2004-2009 all the TV analysts said Kobe was the best and there wasn't much argument and afterwards it's obviously been LeBron. Granted Kobe's advanced stats were never the single best and 'dominant' but some of those stats are massively overrated and stats never played a game of basketball and don't take into account all the moving factors in a team game

As for the GOAT argument, there's not a realistic possibility for Kobe to be number 1. He just wasn't as good as the very top few players. I'd realistically put Kobe between 4-6 maybe down to 7 if LeBron wins a couple more chips.

Bostonjorge
07-24-2014, 09:52 AM
do you know how long the list of statistical numbers Jordan kills Kobe in?

Hint: It's a long list...

I have Jordan as the man the goat.

Chronz
07-24-2014, 09:52 AM
Who's saying he cant. He might very well be the greatest to ever play, he just needs to come back from this injury and he will prove it. #darkknightreturns

thenaj17
07-24-2014, 09:59 AM
Who's saying he cant. He might very well be the greatest to ever play, he just needs to come back from this injury and he will prove it. #darkknightreturns

What's with you and Buckets? Trolling hard now or what?

ManRam
07-24-2014, 10:03 AM
How can u ignore what a player has accomplished? The records are kept for a reason and kobes name is on top of KAJ on a lot of them and when kobe is done he will have his name higher then KAJ on more of them.

U don't have to give credit to players opinions but there opinions is what will last and yours will be forgotten much sooner just like mine.

I'm not ignoring what he's accomplished. He's great. One of the absolute greatest. For sure. This thread is talking about him being the singular best player ever. That I think is a joke. That's all. It's not disrespectful to him for me to say that he isn't close to being the single best ever. I'm not ignoring his accomplishments by saying that.

Regardless, show me these quotes from these players.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2014, 10:06 AM
I have Jordan as the man the goat.

I know that. I have another 7-9 guys ahead of Kobe as well.

His longevity is the main reason he is a top 10 player, versus a top 20.

Wade n Fade
07-24-2014, 10:08 AM
Simple answer: too many talents surpass Kome's abilities. He shouldn't even be in the conversation for the best of all time. Sure, he's a competitor, hit some memorable shots, played well, etc. But the stats argue against him. Lebron surpassed Kobe ages ago and has the better statistically career. He will be the youngest 30k scorer ever. So many players you can make the argument for against Kome.

PhillyFaninLA
07-24-2014, 10:09 AM
Kobe is not the best Laker of all time, Magic, Shaq, Wilt, and Kareem are better than Kobe. This is no slight to Kobe but you can't be the best ever if your no better than 5th best in your teams history. That is an impressive list to be behind.

YAALREADYKNO
07-24-2014, 10:29 AM
i think you guys are underrating kobe here. Lebron is not ahead of kobe all time YET. Kobe in his prime was unstoppable and you knew the man could bring you back down from 15 by himself. Lebron has more mvp's but you could argue kobe couldve had at least 2-3 to go along with 5 championships. I would still take kobe in his prime over lebron in his as of right now. The only way lebron passes kobe up is if he gets 1-2 more finals mvp

dAngelo
07-24-2014, 10:48 AM
i think you guys are underrating kobe here. Lebron is not ahead of kobe all time YET. Kobe in his prime was unstoppable and you knew the man could bring you back down from 15 by himself. Lebron has more mvp's but you could argue kobe couldve had at least 2-3 to go along with 5 championships. I would still take kobe in his prime over lebron in his as of right now. The only way lebron passes kobe up is if he gets 1-2 more finals mvp

Jordan in his prime was unstoppable, Shaq in his prime was unstoppable, so was TD, Wilt, Hakeem, Lebron and other greats. I don't see why Kobe being unstoppable makes him more special than other all time greats.

Can you tell us which years Kobe should have won MVP?

Kobe and Lebron both have 2 FMVPs. Why does Lebron need 1 or 2 more to surpass Kobe but Kobe only needs to tie to be considered better?

boboo73
07-24-2014, 10:55 AM
Because per and fg%

Exactly. His efficiency doesnt even sniff Jordan's.

If Jordan didnt play for the Wizards his FG% would be over 50%.

boboo73
07-24-2014, 11:00 AM
I agree Lebron is better but who cares about the youngest to 30k. Not an apples to apples comparison to other scorers in the league. Jordan - in a per season comparison, dominates everyone in scoring.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2014, 11:03 AM
i think you guys are underrating kobe here. Lebron is not ahead of kobe all time YET. Kobe in his prime was unstoppable and you knew the man could bring you back down from 15 by himself. Lebron has more mvp's but you could argue kobe couldve had at least 2-3 to go along with 5 championships. I would still take kobe in his prime over lebron in his as of right now. The only way lebron passes kobe up is if he gets 1-2 more finals mvp

Kobe has 1 MVP, is what it is. And at no point in his career, can you make an outright case for him being the best player in the league. We have multiple years of LeBron being the clear cut best.

Career wise, sure Kobe's career is better, for now. In their primes, Kobe has no case against LeBron. It's why Kobe is limited on how far he can climb in the all time rankings. He simply didn't peak out like a bunch of other players. His longevity at a high ENOUGH level is why he is in the conversation for top 10. It isn't his peak.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2014, 11:04 AM
I agree Lebron is better but who cares about the youngest to 30k. Not an apples to apples comparison to other scorers in the league. Jordan - in a per season comparison, dominates everyone in scoring.

agreed, who cares. LeBron was able to score 20 a game at age 18, so of course he has a leg up on that. Doesn't mean anything in the scheme of things to me personally.

Tymathee
07-24-2014, 11:06 AM
First and foremost I am not trolling here but simply wanting to get a a better understanding from some of the posters here who actually are basketball 'experts'.

I dont really post here often but i do read a lot of the forum questions and replies you guys post.

I started watching the NBA in 2002 and IMO Kobe has been the best player I've ever seen and I base that off his footwork, his athleticism, total offensive arsenal and his sheer willingness to win at all costs (which I think a lot of you guys take for granted).

Theres a lot of hate on this man and I dont understand why people do not consider him to be the greatest to play the game? Is it because Michael was such a god during his time and his name as well as influence worldwide makes him untouchable? Or is there actually something that MJ can do/did that Kobe can never accomplish?

I dont think i can ever consider the Lebron to be the GOAT and not because of the idea that he is 'mentally weak' or 'unloyal' the man is a beast but I put him in the tier with Bird/Kareem/Olajuwon.

To me there are only 3 people that i see mentioning as the possible candidates to be the greatest and those are Kobe-MJ-Magic.

So to keep this short: Why cant Kobe be the Greatest?

because he's not and this is coming from a guy with kobe in his avatar and sig.

He's top 5 all time at least. It's very hard to compare players outside of different era's but I think Kobe is one of those guys who could put up 25+ in any area of basketball, not only was he that talented and athletic but he is also that skilled and smart and not a lot of players through the years have had that.

Chronz
07-24-2014, 11:10 AM
What's with you and Buckets? Trolling hard now or what?
i dont troll.

FOBolous
07-24-2014, 11:26 AM
It's hilarious knowing that you actually typed that

It's hilarious knowing you think otherwise.

gawwitit
07-24-2014, 11:30 AM
You guys need to go look at Wilt Chamberlain's numbers. If anyone doesn't have him in their top three, they just don't understand basketball. 50 points a game for a season, led the NBA in assists another year. It's almost unfathomable what he has accomplished.

ABE32
07-24-2014, 11:33 AM
Kobe is maybe one of the best basketball players of all time and I have seen a lot of the greats. There are a ton of Kobe haters out there because the don't understand the game. I can't place Kobe above MJ or Magic because I just can't but skill wise there is no one better than Kobe...Period!!!

JasonJohnHorn
07-24-2014, 11:48 AM
U have to many wrong facts so your whole argument is worthless.

What's wrong. Jordan's per game averages were all higher than Kobe's. Which was am I wrong about?

PPG: Jordan: 30.1 > Kobe 25.5
PP36: Jordan 28.3 > Kobe 25.0
RPG: Jordan 6.2 > Kobe 5.3
RP36: Jordan 5.9 > 5.2
APG: Jordan 5.3 > Kobe 4.8
AP36: 4.9 > Kobe 4.7
SPG: Jordan 2.3 > Kobe 1.5
SP36: Jordan 2.2 > Kobe 1.4
BPG: Jordan 0.8 > 0.5
BP36: Jordan 0. 8 > 0.5
FG%: Jordan .497 > Kobe .454
FT%: Jordan .835 < Kobe .838 (I was wrong on that one, but it's pretty much a wash since they were both at 83% rounded up to 84)
Rings: Jordan 6 rings > Kobe 5
Finals MVP: Jordan 6 > Kobe 2
MVPS: Jordan 5 > Kobe 1
ROY: Jordan 1 > Kobe 0
DPOY: Jordan 1 > Kobe 0

So what are all these 'facts' I got wrong?

Your comment is worthless because you don't actually cite any information. I do.

Now move on troll.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2014, 11:52 AM
You guys need to go look at Wilt Chamberlain's numbers. If anyone doesn't have him in their top three, they just don't understand basketball. 50 points a game for a season, led the NBA in assists another year. It's almost unfathomable what he has accomplished.

he is in my top 3, but we need to put his stats into perspective. I have done this a bunch of times, and while it's absolutely not a perfect science (due to Wilt's unmatched stamina), here you go:

Average number of possessions that season per team, per game: roughly 130
Average number of possessions this past season per team, per game: 95
MPG for Wilt: 47
MPG for average star player today: 36

so you have a multipler per possession of 1.37
you have a multiplier per mpg of 1.3

So essentially, a guy like Love for instance, just using those multipliers, would average 46.4/22 under those same circumstances.

Again, there is no way to factor in how Wilt could play 47 mpg at that pace haha, so there is that. I am just showing that per game numbers from the old days need to be put into perspective. Minimal defense during a track meet was the game back then.

JasonJohnHorn
07-24-2014, 11:52 AM
How can u ignore what a player has accomplished? The records are kept for a reason and kobes name is on top of KAJ on a lot of them and when kobe is done he will have his name higher then KAJ on more of them.

U don't have to give credit to players opinions but there opinions is what will last and yours will be forgotten much sooner just like mine.

We are talking averages, not totals.

A guy who player 20 years with average numbers if going to get higher totals than a guy who player 12 seasons at a franchise player level.

Obviously, since Kobe has played more seasons, his TOTALS will be higher... but is Mark Jackson, Jason Kidd and Steve Nash all better than Magic because they have more career assists?

Seriously? Think about that.

YAALREADYKNO
07-24-2014, 11:54 AM
Jordan in his prime was unstoppable, Shaq in his prime was unstoppable, so was TD, Wilt, Hakeem, Lebron and other greats. I don't see why Kobe being unstoppable makes him more special than other all time greats.

Can you tell us which years Kobe should have won MVP?

Kobe and Lebron both have 2 FMVPs. Why does Lebron need 1 or 2 more to surpass Kobe but Kobe only needs to tie to be considered better?

do you remember kobe's prime? he was the most feared player in the nba lol he had the ability to go on a 20-0 run by himself thats why i would still take him over lebron ALLTIME at this point. 2 finals mvp doesnt equal a guy who has 5 championships to go along with 2 finals mvp. Sure the lakers had shaq who was the most dominant center ever but in the 4th the offense ran through kobe. Lebron is better all around but kobe has that jordan-like killer instinct in him

YAALREADYKNO
07-24-2014, 11:56 AM
Kobe has 1 MVP, is what it is. And at no point in his career, can you make an outright case for him being the best player in the league. We have multiple years of LeBron being the clear cut best.

Career wise, sure Kobe's career is better, for now. In their primes, Kobe has no case against LeBron. It's why Kobe is limited on how far he can climb in the all time rankings. He simply didn't peak out like a bunch of other players. His longevity at a high ENOUGH level is why he is in the conversation for top 10. It isn't his peak.

thats what i was saying Kobe's career is still better than lebron's career FOR NOW. This is why i said lebron needs to win at least another ring or 2

ABE32
07-24-2014, 12:00 PM
Kobe has 1 MVP, is what it is. And at no point in his career, can you make an outright case for him being the best player in the league. We have multiple years of LeBron being the clear cut best.

Career wise, sure Kobe's career is better, for now. In their primes, Kobe has no case against LeBron. It's why Kobe is limited on how far he can climb in the all time rankings. He simply didn't peak out like a bunch of other players. His longevity at a high ENOUGH level is why he is in the conversation for top 10. It isn't his peak.

thats what i was saying Kobe's career is still better than lebron's career FOR NOW. This is why i said lebron needs to win at least another ring or 2

Talent wise Kobe is unmatched...I give MJ the nod because of what he accomplished. I would not want to ever gaurd Kobe 1on 1 I mean not ever.

alexander_37
07-24-2014, 12:02 PM
Because he isn't plain and simple.

Stinkyoutsider
07-24-2014, 12:08 PM
On the court, maybe Kobe could be the greatest?

I think MJ is the greatest, not just because of his on the court dominance, but his overall impact on the game. He's the Ali of basketball IMO. There might be players who can perform better than MJ, but no one will eclipse his performances and impact on the game.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2014, 12:20 PM
Talent wise Kobe is unmatched...I give MJ the nod because of what he accomplished. I would not want to ever gaurd Kobe 1on 1 I mean not ever.

that is an opinion. But what is measurable is impact, and Kobe has multiple guys ahead of him on that front.

FlashBolt
07-24-2014, 12:21 PM
he is in my top 3, but we need to put his stats into perspective. I have done this a bunch of times, and while it's absolutely not a perfect science (due to Wilt's unmatched stamina), here you go:

Average number of possessions that season per team, per game: roughly 130
Average number of possessions this past season per team, per game: 95
MPG for Wilt: 47
MPG for average star player today: 36

so you have a multipler per possession of 1.37
you have a multiplier per mpg of 1.3

So essentially, a guy like Love for instance, just using those multipliers, would average 46.4/22 under those same circumstances.

Again, there is no way to factor in how Wilt could play 47 mpg at that pace haha, so there is that. I am just showing that per game numbers from the old days need to be put into perspective. Minimal defense during a track meet was the game back then.

Not to mention that Love primarily shot threes but if he took it to the paint as often as Wilt did, those numbers might be far more impressive. Of course, Wilt was more athletic, quicker, and taller so he was clearly a better player but those numbers are way too misleading. I can't even imagine a player playing above 48 minutes in the NBA today. It just wouldn't be possible. The fact that he was able to, tells me that it wasn't as difficult as it looked.


do you remember kobe's prime? he was the most feared player in the nba lol he had the ability to go on a 20-0 run by himself thats why i would still take him over lebron ALLTIME at this point. 2 finals mvp doesnt equal a guy who has 5 championships to go along with 2 finals mvp. Sure the lakers had shaq who was the most dominant center ever but in the 4th the offense ran through kobe. Lebron is better all around but kobe has that jordan-like killer instinct in him

1) Yeah.. we remember Kobe in his prime and he wasn't as lethal as Kevin Durant was today. Nor was he as imposing as LeBron. He was just a player who had the green light to shoot as many times as he did. Lord knows how many points KD would average if Westbrook wasn't there. I took the liberty of taking Kobe's highest scoring season vs Durant's scoring season and the average amount of points KD would average if he took 27 shots per game (KD never went above 21 FGA a season), he would average 42 points. That's based off his FG% while taking 27 shots with respect to his FT's increasing, his three pointer, and his 2PA. I wouldn't say he was the most feared. He was unstoppable 1v1 but so is Durant and James.

2) Honestly, Kobe would have 2 rings if Shaq wasn't on that team. Kobe was horrific in 2000-2001 Finals. He was just bad. 2002 he made up for it but Shaq's performance was unmatched. He was REALLY bad in 2000-2001. His 3 lone rings with Shaq aren't as impressive as it seems. Any top 10 player would have won with Shaq; including McGrady, Carter, and AI.

ABE32
07-24-2014, 12:23 PM
Talent wise Kobe is unmatched...I give MJ the nod because of what he accomplished. I would not want to ever gaurd Kobe 1on 1 I mean not ever.



that is an opinion. But what is measurable is impact, and Kobe has multiple guys ahead of him on that front.


That is an opinion as well!

alexander_37
07-24-2014, 12:26 PM
Talent wise Kobe is unmatched...I give MJ the nod because of what he accomplished. I would not want to ever gaurd Kobe 1on 1 I mean not ever.

Yeah Kobe is/was way more talented than MJ who was faster than almost every PG had a 48 inch vertical leap to boot.

He also scored way more than Kobe way more efficiently, was a better rebounder, and got more assists with less turnovers. Not to mention Jordan was a way better defender.

jerellh528
07-24-2014, 12:38 PM
Talent wise Kobe is unmatched...I give MJ the nod because of what he accomplished. I would not want to ever gaurd Kobe 1on 1 I mean not ever.

Talent wise, there are plenty of guys ahead of Kobe. Skill wise, Kobe is unmatched.

ManRam
07-24-2014, 12:45 PM
Yeah...talent and skill aren't anything anyone can prove nor even come close to beginning to quantify. Nor does it matter who's "more skilled" when we're debating how great players are. Doesn't matter how you go about being great...all that matters is that you are. JJ Redick is probably more skilled than DeMar DeRozan...doesn't mean he's better.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2014, 12:46 PM
That is an opinion as well!

impact can be measured. And it shows that there have been a number of players better than Kobe.

LakersEaglesLA
07-24-2014, 01:04 PM
Kobe is considered the 1# to #3 player all time everywhere on earth except PSD. Lesson time stop using stats for Jordan argument over Kobe because Wilt stats kill Jordans and so does Kareem. MVPs are not counted for Kobe because after rape charge no writers voted for Kobe. While Shaq dominated finals Kobe dominated all 3 rounds of Western conference playoffs which were murder. Finals against East was easy. Magic and Bird affected NBA more than anyone, no NBA without them. Yes Jordan was 6 for 6 in Finals, but from 84-90 he didn't even make finals because those 80's teams were great the he had to go thru. Yes magic went 5 and 4 in finals but he played in 9 out of 12 in greatest decade. Jordan is great but not God I seen him get his @as kicked 6 straight years. Kobe is this generations Jordan without a doubt. Some fools on here are so desperate to dis Kobe. Kobe in is prime was just as good as Jordan on defense, just as unstoppable on offense, and as feared as Jordan on court. 5 time champion. When this season starts Kobe will start cementing himself as the greatest ever. 36 yrs old coming off torn achilles dominating the game as usual. Then maybe some of you haters will shut the hell up and appreciate greatness.. #1 Magic #2 Jordan #3 Kobe and he ain't done yet

beliges
07-24-2014, 01:06 PM
that is an opinion. But what is measurable is impact, and Kobe has multiple guys ahead of him on that front.

I disagree. Take into consideration foot work, fundamental, post-up game, ability to finish, bball IQ, the shot, the defense, put all the skills together and I think we are looking at THE most skilled player to ever do it. Nobody has ever had that combination of various perfected skills as kobe has. It's really crazy to think.about.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2014, 01:10 PM
I disagree. Take into consideration foot work, fundamental, post-up game, ability to finish, bball IQ, the shot, the defense, put all the skills together and I think we are looking at THE most skilled player to ever do it. Nobody has ever had that combination of various perfected skills as kobe has. It's really crazy to think.about.

skill doesn't measure impact is my point. CP3 is far more skilled than Kobe. He has to be. So?

Hawkeye15
07-24-2014, 01:14 PM
Kobe is considered the 1# to #3 player all time everywhere on earth except PSD. Lesson time stop using stats for Jordan argument over Kobe because Wilt stats kill Jordans and so does Kareem. MVPs are not counted for Kobe because after rape charge no writers voted for Kobe. While Shaq dominated finals Kobe dominated all 3 rounds of Western conference playoffs which were murder. Finals against East was easy. Magic and Bird affected NBA more than anyone, no NBA without them. Yes Jordan was 6 for 6 in Finals, but from 84-90 he didn't even make finals because those 80's teams were great the he had to go thru. Yes magic went 5 and 4 in finals but he played in 9 out of 12 in greatest decade. Jordan is great but not God I seen him get his @as kicked 6 straight years. Kobe is this generations Jordan without a doubt. Some fools on here are so desperate to dis Kobe. Kobe in is prime was just as good as Jordan on defense, just as unstoppable on offense, and as feared as Jordan on court. 5 time champion. When this season starts Kobe will start cementing himself as the greatest ever. 36 yrs old coming off torn achilles dominating the game as usual. Then maybe some of you haters will shut the hell up and appreciate greatness.. #1 Magic #2 Jordan #3 Kobe and he ain't done yet

not really

P&GRealist
07-24-2014, 01:16 PM
Lol. Such as?

The funniest part of his post was 'more rookies of the yr awards'

There's only 1! You either win it or you don't! :laugh2:

P&GRealist
07-24-2014, 01:21 PM
Kobe is not the best Laker of all time, Magic, Shaq, Wilt, and Kareem are better than Kobe. This is no slight to Kobe but you can't be the best ever if your no better than 5th best in your teams history. That is an impressive list to be behind.
Lol did you just say Shaq is a better Laker than Kobe?

I stopped reading right there.

We can all agree Kobe was never GOAT worthy. But now you trolls are going off the most senseless and idiotic tangents. Just stop.

P&GRealist
07-24-2014, 01:23 PM
skill doesn't measure impact is my point. CP3 is far more skilled than Kobe. He has to be. So?

CP3 more skilled than Kobe?

How so?

nyKnicks126
07-24-2014, 01:24 PM
Kobe..... Should..... Just..... Retire

P&GRealist
07-24-2014, 01:25 PM
that is an opinion. But what is measurable is impact, and Kobe has multiple guys ahead of him on that front.

So you are just shoving aside skill like it doesn't mean anything?

P&GRealist
07-24-2014, 01:25 PM
Kobe..... Should..... Just..... Retire

Why should it matter to you when he retires? :confused:

nyKnicks126
07-24-2014, 01:27 PM
Kobe was so overhyped in his prime that it continues to stay with him throughout his older years.. Without the help he got.. He would have had 1 title. Never liked Kobe..

P&GRealist
07-24-2014, 01:28 PM
impact can be measured. And it shows that there have been a number of players better than Kobe.

How can impact be measured?

What if a player is impactful due to a team system implemented by a coach. But then if that player is traded to another system with another coach of another team, and their skillet doesn't match that team's philosophies, then do they stop being impactful?

nyKnicks126
07-24-2014, 01:28 PM
Why should it matter to you when he retires? :confused:
Ehh. It doesn't. It only has an impact on the Lakers organization being stupid enough to offer him so much money at his age.. Money grabber and the lakers won't win **** anyway with the squad they have.

Sadds The Gr8
07-24-2014, 01:28 PM
Kobe is considered the 1# to #3 player all time everywhere on earth except PSD. Lesson time stop using stats for Jordan argument over Kobe because Wilt stats kill Jordans and so does Kareem. MVPs are not counted for Kobe because after rape charge no writers voted for Kobe. While Shaq dominated finals Kobe dominated all 3 rounds of Western conference playoffs which were murder. Finals against East was easy. Magic and Bird affected NBA more than anyone, no NBA without them. Yes Jordan was 6 for 6 in Finals, but from 84-90 he didn't even make finals because those 80's teams were great the he had to go thru. Yes magic went 5 and 4 in finals but he played in 9 out of 12 in greatest decade. Jordan is great but not God I seen him get his @as kicked 6 straight years. Kobe is this generations Jordan without a doubt. Some fools on here are so desperate to dis Kobe. Kobe in is prime was just as good as Jordan on defense, just as unstoppable on offense, and as feared as Jordan on court. 5 time champion. When this season starts Kobe will start cementing himself as the greatest ever. 36 yrs old coming off torn achilles dominating the game as usual. Then maybe some of you haters will shut the hell up and appreciate greatness.. #1 Magic #2 Jordan #3 Kobe and he ain't done yet
lol

RiLoc
07-24-2014, 01:32 PM
Since Michael Jordan is by far the popular choice for greatest of all time, let's compare statistics between MJ and Kobe. Since Jordan didn't play in the NBA until 21 and Kobe is currently 35. So I think it's fair that we'll compare stats between the ages 21 and 35.

Here are the regular season stats:

MJ Kobe
PPG 31.5 27.7
eFG% .518 .488
TS% .580 .556
3PT% .332* .335
RPG 6.3 5.7
REB% 9.4 8.3
APG 5.4 5.2
AST% 24.9 25.3
USG% 33.5 32.5
WS 204.5 159.7
WS/48 .274 .189
PER 29.1 24.1

Here are the playoff stats during those time periods:

MJ Kobe
PPG 33.4 27.7
eFG% .503 .482
TS% .568 .543
3PT% .332* .335
RPG 6.4 5.4
REB% 9.3 7.4
APG 5.7 5.1
AST% 28.2 23.7
USG% 35.6 31.5
WS 39.8 27.5
WS/48 .255 .166
PER 28.6 23.0

I put an asterisk by 3 point percentage, because 2 of Michael Jordan's years had a shorter three point line. Kobe is/was a better 3 point shooter than Jordan.

I think another interesting measurement for comparing Jordan and Kobe is RAPM.

For those who do not know what RAPM is, RAPM is "Regularized Adjusted Plus-Minus." RAPM's goal is to provide more accurate results by employing a special technique called "ridge regression" (a.k.a. regularization). It significantly reduces standard errors in Adjusted Plus-Minus (APM). In other words, it's plus/minus while taking into account the effect of the other players on the floor. It's very similar to ESPN's RPM (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10740818/introducing-real-plus-minus).

Rank is the rank in the NBA that year/time period.

Here is the data of Jordan in the 90s:

Age RAPM Rank
1990s -- 5.2 1st
1990-91 27 5.0 4th
1991-92 28 4.9 5th
1992-93 29 5.5 4th
1994-95 31 2.1 29th
1995-96 32 5.2 7th
1996-97 33 4.3 11th
1997-98 34 3.9 22nd

Unfortunately there isn't data before 1990 for Jordan.

Here is some of the relevant data from Kobe:

Age RAPM Rank
2000-01 22 4.0 17th
2001-02 23 3.5 20th
2002-03 24 4.6 14th
2003-04 25 4.0 18th
2004-05 26 4.2 20th
2005-06 27 5.7 11th
2006-07 28 5.8 11th
2007-08 29 6.6 6th
2008-09 30 5.5 9th
2009-10 31 4.2 18th
2010-11 32 2.8 38th
2011-12 33 2.0 65th
2012-13 34 3.2 38th

All RAPM data is from http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/

nyKnicks126
07-24-2014, 01:35 PM
Yeah.. Kobe is never ever ever ever ever on the same level as MJ.. And he should never even be in the same sentence with MJ.

Wrigheyes4MVP
07-24-2014, 01:38 PM
Shaq > Kobe

ManRam
07-24-2014, 01:40 PM
Kobe is considered the 1# to #3 player all time everywhere on earth except PSD.

This notion that only PSD doesn't "like" Kobe is silly. The only demographic that overwhelmingly consider him 1-3 are Kobe fans, regardless of where you go.

Google "greatest nba players all time". This is what pops up. Not saying I care about their opinions, but they are opinions "outside of PSD". Here is every relevant link that pops up on the first page.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1795233-10-greatest-nba-players-of-all-time/page/2 (Kobe outside top-10)
http://blogs.rgj.com/chrismurray/2014/02/14/the-sunday-list-the-10-best-basketball-players-in-the-history-of-the-game/ (Kobe 10)
http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/post/_/id/10764397/all-nba-players (Kobe's at 10)
http://www.complex.com/sports/2013/11/best-all-around-nba-players/kobe-bryant (Kobe at 14)
http://sporteology.com/top-10-greatest-nba-players-time/ (Kobe at 6)
http://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/the-top-nba-players-of-all-time?var=2&utm_expid=16418821-43.HhKtbZiZSGitn6A8tv5ipw.1&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F (Kobe at 7)

Again, I couldn't give two ***** about those lists, but it kills your stupid argument that Kobe not being considered a top-3 player only a phenomena of PSD. That's just silly...and if you really believe that: yikes!



Still waiting on the list of players who revere Kobe as the best to ever play, as well....

Chronz
07-24-2014, 01:41 PM
So you are just shoving aside skill like it doesn't mean anything?

Would you rather have the most aesthetically pleasing game, or the one that would be most likely to win you the game?

Kobe gives you both.

nyKnicks126
07-24-2014, 01:43 PM
The only thing Kobe and MJ have in common is $. MJ is a legend.. Kobe is a pu$$i

LakersEaglesLA
07-24-2014, 01:46 PM
[QUOTE=nyKnicks126;28838272]Yeah.. Kobe is never ever ever ever ever on the same level as MJ.. And he should never even be in the same sentence with MJ.[/
QUOTE]
MJ himself put Kobe in same sentence with him hater

abe_froman
07-24-2014, 01:49 PM
kobe fans stirring this **** up again :laugh: ,thought you guys had gotten better the past couple years.:pity:

...wonder what brought it back on

nyKnicks126
07-24-2014, 01:51 PM
[QUOTE=nyKnicks126;28838272]Yeah.. Kobe is never ever ever ever ever on the same level as MJ.. And he should never even be in the same sentence with MJ.[/
QUOTE]
MJ himself put Kobe in same sentence with him hater
You are funny.

LakersEaglesLA
07-24-2014, 01:52 PM
This notion that only PSD doesn't "like" Kobe is silly. The only demographic that overwhelmingly consider him 1-3 are Kobe fans, regardless of where you go.

Google "greatest nba players all time". This is what pops up. Not saying I care about their opinions, but they are opinions "outside of PSD". Here is every relevant link that pops up on the first page.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1795233-10-greatest-nba-players-of-all-time/page/2 (Kobe outside top-10)
http://blogs.rgj.com/chrismurray/2014/02/14/the-sunday-list-the-10-best-basketball-players-in-the-history-of-the-game/ (Kobe 10)
http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/po/_/id/10764397/all-nba-players (Kobe's at 10)
http://www.complex.com/sports/2013/11/best-all-around-nba-players/kobe-bryant (Kobe at 14)
http://sporteology.com/top-10-greatest-nba-players-time/ (Kobe at 6)
http://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/the-top-nba-players-of-all-time?var=2&utm_expid=16418821-43.HhKtbZiZSGitn6A8tv5ipw.1&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F (Kobe at 7)

Again, I couldn't give two ***** about those lists, but it kills your stupid argument that Kobe not being considered a top-3 player only a phenomena of PSD. That's just silly...and if you really believe that: yikes!



Still waiting on the list of players who revere Kobe as the best to ever play, as well....
Kobe is and has been a victim of media bias his whole career. Most disrespected All Time great ever! You get that list of players who revere Kobe as greatest in there generation since your the master researcher. There is plenty

RiLoc
07-24-2014, 01:54 PM
Kobe is considered the 1# to #3 player all time everywhere on earth except PSD.That's not true. lol


Lesson time stop using stats for Jordan argument over Kobe because Wilt stats kill Jordans and so does Kareem.If you use advanced statistics where you can and put the statistics in perspective, Jordan isn't "killed" by Kareem or Wilt at all. The problem with statistics is that they need to be in perspective, you need to understand the circumstances of each statistic.

Let's use ages where we can compare all four, since Kobe's 35 and Wilt started at age 23 here are the stats between ages 23 and 35:


MJ Kobe Wilt CAP
PPG 32.0 28.0 31.5 27.2
eFG% .519 .489 .535 .563
TS% .579 .557 .543 .596
RPG 6.3 5.7 23.3 13.1
APG 5.4 5.3 4.4 4.1
WS 189.0 137.8 229.1 213.0
WS/48 .281 .188 .248 .258
PER 29.4 24.2 26.7 26.6

Assist percentage was only recorded from 64-65 on. Rebound percentage only recorded from 70-71 on. Usage rate only recorded from 1977-78 on. That's why those are missing. Three point shots don't really apply to CAP or Wilt.

In context those numbers do not "kill" Jordan.

ManRam
07-24-2014, 01:55 PM
Kobe is and has been a victim of media bias his whole career. Most disrespected All Time great ever! You get that list of players who revere Kobe as greatest in there generation since your the master researcher. There is plenty

OK. So what you're now moving onto is that it's not just PSD...it's the media's fault.

Got it!


The burden of proof is on you. Whoever said that there are tons of players that think Kobe is the greatest ever should back up his claim. Can't remember who it was (jerrell?). He's probably not backing up his claim because it's just not true.


This is the **** that gets me labeled as a Kobe hater (among actual obvious trolling ;) ) which is just silly.

Ty Fast
07-24-2014, 01:56 PM
If he breaks kareem's record i would put him at 2 but not ahead of mj.

P&GRealist
07-24-2014, 01:58 PM
Ehh. It doesn't. It only has an impact on the Lakers organization being stupid enough to offer him so much money at his age.. Money grabber and the lakers won't win **** anyway with the squad they have.

You didn't answer my question.

What does it matter to you? Why would you even make that statement to begin with? What's the underlying bitterness bud? Is it because he didn't play for your 41 yr ring less franchise, and that maybe had he played for you instead of Lakers, you guys wouldn't be ringless now for over 4 decades?

nyKnicks126
07-24-2014, 02:00 PM
You didn't answer my question.

What does it matter to you? Why would you even make that statement to begin with? What's the underlying bitterness bud? Is it because he didn't play for your 41 yr ring less franchise, and that maybe had he played for you instead of Lakers, you guys wouldn't be ringless now for over 4 decades?

The only thing bitter I read here is coming from you bud.. Blind lakers homer.

jerellh528
07-24-2014, 02:01 PM
OK. So what you're now moving onto is that it's not just PSD...it's the media's fault.

Got it!


The burden of proof is on you. Whoever said that there are tons of players that think Kobe is the greatest ever should back up his claim. Can't remember who it was (jerrell?). He's probably not backing up his claim because it's just not true.


This is the **** that gets me labeled as a Kobe hater (among actual obvious trolling ;) ) which is just silly.

lol wtf. why don't you go look instead of throwing my name out there, misspelled too.

LakersEaglesLA
07-24-2014, 02:01 PM
OK. So what you're now moving onto is that it's not just PSD...it's the media's fault.

Got it

The burden of proof is on you. Whoever said that there are tons of players that think Kobe is the greatest ever should back up his claim. Can't remember who it was (jerrell?). He's probably not backing up his claim because it's just not true.


This is the **** that gets me labeled as a Kobe hater (among actual obvious trolling ;) ) which is just silly.

Ofcourse its the media's fault, anyone who have watched basketball since 1996 and can't see Kobe's greatness is either brainwashed by media or don't understand the game

mngopher35
07-24-2014, 02:03 PM
Kobe is and has been a victim of media bias his whole career. Most disrespected All Time great ever! You get that list of players who revere Kobe as greatest in there generation since your the master researcher. There is plenty

I actually did the same as him and googled the question and didn't see people placing him top 1-3 like you suggested (I only saw one mention top 5). You said this happens everywhere but PSD and as it turns out 10 (which is what he got on psd) seems to be average. Just admit that is false, it is quite obvious.

The only people who rate him that highly are the laker/kobe fans.

LakersEaglesLA
07-24-2014, 02:05 PM
That's not true. lol

If you use advanced statistics where you can and put the statistics in perspective, Jordan isn't "killed" by Kareem or Wilt at all. The problem with statistics is that they need to be in perspective, you need to understand the circumstances of each statistic.

Let's use ages where we can compare all four, since Kobe's 35 and Wilt started at age 23 here are the stats between ages 23 and 35:


MJ Kobe Wilt CAP
PPG 32.0 28.0 31.5 27.2
eFG% .519 .489 .535 .563
TS% .579 .557 .543 .596
RPG 6.3 5.7 23.3 13.1
APG 5.4 5.3 4.4 4.1
WS 189.0 137.8 229.1 213.0
WS/48 .281 .188 .248 .258
PER 29.4 24.2 26.7 26.6

Assist percentage was only recorded from 64-65 on. Rebound percentage only recorded from 70-71 on. Usage rate only recorded from 1977-78 on. That's why those are missing. Three point shots don't really apply to CAP or Wilt.

In context those numbers do not "kill" Jordan.

You can crunch numbers and get as creative

Sadds The Gr8
07-24-2014, 02:12 PM
Ofcourse its the media's fault, anyone who have watched basketball since 1996 and can't see Kobe's greatness is either brainwashed by media or don't understand the game
Wtf are you talking about? the media has been on kobes dick since he won that title vs Boston.

seriously only kobe nuthuggers even consider him being top 1-3 all time. he's not the goat and never will be...period. he's easily top 10...Doesn't mean people dont think he's great. I don't know how the hell you can be a consensus top 10 player and not be considered great

LakersEaglesLA
07-24-2014, 02:12 PM
I actually did the same as him and googled the question and didn't see people placing him top 1-3 like you suggested (I only saw one mention top 5). You said this happens everywhere but PSD and as it turns out 10 (which is what he got on psd) seems to be average. Just admit that is false, it is quite obvious.

The only people who rate him that highly are the laker/kbe fans.

You Google it lol so that's where you determine who the best is. Laker fans are not the only ones that rank Kobe top 5.. just admit that is false

LakersEaglesLA
07-24-2014, 02:15 PM
Wtf are you talking about? the media has been on kobes dick since he won that title vs Boston.

seriously only kobe nuthuggers even consider him being top 1-3 all time. he's not the goat and never will be...period. he's easily top 10...Doesn't mean people dont think he's great.

He's much higher then top 10, there inlies your problem

Sadds The Gr8
07-24-2014, 02:17 PM
He's much higher then top 10, there inlies your problem
to the opinion of nuthuggers.

I have him at 8. I can see an argument for 6 at best but I don't wanna hear the top 3 bull ****.

LakersEaglesLA
07-24-2014, 02:19 PM
to the opinion of nuthuggers.

I have him at 8. I can see an argument for 6 at best but I don't wanna hear the top 3 bull ****.
I know you don't wanna hear it smh

mngopher35
07-24-2014, 02:20 PM
You Google it lol so that's where you determine who the best is. Laker fans are not the only ones that rank Kobe top 5.. just admit that is false

No, I googled it to see if your claim of "Kobe is considered the 1# to #3 player all time everywhere on earth except PSD." was even remotely true. It isn't as the sites man ram linked show which is very similar to what I saw. We will never agree on Kobe as you are clearly in the extreme category. You were absolutely wrong from the start of your post though as it is clear many others have him outside of the top 5 let alone top 3.

Laker fans aren't the only ones to put him top 5 but I have never seen a non Kobe/Laker fan here claim he is 1-3.

WadeKobe
07-24-2014, 02:25 PM
How can impact be measured?

What if a player is impactful due to a team system implemented by a coach. But then if that player is traded to another system with another coach of another team, and their skillet doesn't match that team's philosophies, then do they stop being impactful?

I would love for you to provide an example of a player for who this has happened...

Faneik
07-24-2014, 02:26 PM
ball hog, volume shooter who plays hero-ball inefficiently.

sure, he is a big talent, but doesn't trust his teammates, trashes them after a bad play, and has a huge ego that drove talent out of his teams.

Sadds The Gr8
07-24-2014, 02:27 PM
No, I googled it to see if your claim of "Kobe is considered the 1# to #3 player all time everywhere on earth except PSD." was even remotely true. It isn't as the sites man ram linked show which is very similar to what I saw. We will never agree on Kobe as you are clearly in the extreme category. You were absolutely wrong from the start of your post though as it is clear many others have him outside of the top 5 let alone top 3.

Laker fans aren't the only ones to put him top 5 but I have never seen a non Kobe/Laker fan here claim he is 1-3.
he probably posts in some Lakers forum with a bunch of Kobe stans and somehow extrapolated that ridiculous claim

Guy Incognito
07-24-2014, 02:30 PM
Oh you silly silly people. You may as well argue what is the best color in the world. However...

I just skipped to the end here, so I may be repeating someone else's comments. But in another timeline, in some other reality, where Kobe didn't get accused of rape, he is as "popular" as MJ ever was. That would change everything. His reputation never recovered from that.

Let's be honest, it's not only merit we are taking into account for the GOAT. If it was, he'd be in everyone's top 3 list.

LakersEaglesLA
07-24-2014, 02:30 PM
I think the problem is people already have there minds made up abt Kobe and that isn't fair. Some says there is nothing Kobe can do to move up yet he is still playing, how ignorant is that? Once his career is over and people dont see anyone in the league as skilled as Kobe maybe they will understand, there may never be another player like Kobe in our lifetime. At 36 coming off Achilles tear Lets just see how great he is instead of putting a glass ceiling on hiBecause you may not like his personality, Jordan is no saint either!

49ersLALSFGiant
07-24-2014, 02:32 PM
I am by no means saying Kobe is the goat, but for the people saying there is no year where Kobe was the best player in the nba, u guys are on some serious drugs or plain hating. Were u guys living under a rock between 04-09?

Guy Incognito
07-24-2014, 02:32 PM
.

Guy Incognito
07-24-2014, 02:34 PM
ball hog, volume shooter who plays hero-ball inefficiently.

sure, he is a big talent, but doesn't trust his teammates, trashes them after a bad play, and has a huge ego that drove talent out of his teams.

This guy.

ManRam
07-24-2014, 02:42 PM
lol wtf. why don't you go look instead of throwing my name out there, misspelled too.

My apologies, Jerellh! I meant bostonjorge.

ManRam
07-24-2014, 02:43 PM
Ofcourse its the media's fault, anyone who have watched basketball since 1996 and can't see Kobe's greatness is either brainwashed by media or don't understand the game

:laugh:


We might have a new guy at the top of the Kobephile totem pole!


Kobe was adorned by the media for the vast, vast, vast majority of his career. He was without a doubt the league's most popular player for a very long time. You're reaching, hard.

WadeKobe
07-24-2014, 02:43 PM
It saddens me that this is a conversation that seriously happens. It shows how well the media has created their narrative.

Kobe is an all-time great. He is not in the top3. He is not in the top5. He wasn't nearly good enough in his peak to be put in the same tier/breath as Jordan, Wilt, or KAJ.

That's not a knock on Kobe. It's just true. It's jus how great those others were. Kobe simply doesn't compare.

ManRam
07-24-2014, 02:46 PM
It saddens me that this is a conversation that seriously happens. It shows how well the media has created their narrative.

Kobe is an all-time great. He is not in the top3. He is not in the top5. He wasn't nearly good enough in his peak to be put in the same tier/breath as Jordan, Wilt, or KAJ.

That's not a knock on Kobe. It's just true. It's jus how great those others were. Kobe simply doesn't compare.

*waits for LakersEaglesLA to call a user with "Kobe" in his username a hater who's merely brainwashed by the media*

LakersEaglesLA
07-24-2014, 02:49 PM
No, I googled it to see if your claim of "Kobe is considered the 1# to #3 player all time everywhere on earth except PSD." was even remotely true. It isn't as the sites man ram linked show which is very similar to what I saw. We will never agree on Kobe as you are clearly in the extreme category. You were absolutely wrong from the start of your post though as it is clear many others have him outside of the top 5 let alone top 3.

Laker fans aren't the only ones to put him top 5 but I have never seen a non Kobe/Laker fan here claim he is 1-3.

I am not in the extreme category, I'm a person who played high school and college basketball so I look at the game from a players perspective. And from most players perspective Kobe is top 5 all day long

JasonJohnHorn
07-24-2014, 02:49 PM
Originally Posted by beliges View Post
I disagree. Take into consideration foot work, fundamental, post-up game, ability to finish, bball IQ, the shot, the defense, put all the skills together and I think we are looking at THE most skilled player to ever do it. Nobody has ever had that combination of various perfected skills as kobe has. It's really crazy to think.about.

I actually thought your were talking about Jordan until that last line.

Jordan had a much higher BBIQ, was a much better post player (Kobe modeled his post-play after Jordan's after all, with some help from The Dream; Jordan was an AMAZING post player). Jordan had a much better shot, better foot work and much better fundamentals considering he was a better defender, got more steals with less fouls and more assists with less turnovers. How is Kobe a better fundamental player when Jordan excels him in fundamental categories like fouls and turnovers?

jerellh528
07-24-2014, 02:50 PM
:laugh:


We might have a new guy at the top of the Kobephile totem pole!


Kobe was adorned by the media for the vast, vast, vast majority of his career. He was without a doubt the league's most popular player for a very long time. You're reaching, hard.

I think that was more coming from what he did on the court rather than the media. I don't particularly remember a time where Kobe was adorned by the media as much as guys like lbj, Favre, and the likes. The media have been meh on Kobe iirc.

JasonJohnHorn
07-24-2014, 02:50 PM
The funniest part of his post was 'more rookies of the yr awards'

There's only 1! You either win it or you don't! :laugh2:


Yes, and Jordan won it, and Kobe didn't. Done.

jerellh528
07-24-2014, 02:52 PM
I actually thought your were talking about Jordan until that last line.

Jordan had a much higher BBIQ, was a much better post player (Kobe modeled his post-play after Jordan's after all, with some help from The Dream; Jordan was an AMAZING post player). Jordan had a much better shot, better foot work and much better fundamentals considering he was a better defender, got more steals with less fouls and more assists with less turnovers. How is Kobe a better fundamental player when Jordan excels him in fundamental categories like fouls and turnovers?

Kobe passes more than Jordan of course he would have more turnovers. Refs loved Jordan more than anyone, of course less fouls.

LakersEaglesLA
07-24-2014, 02:55 PM
*waits for LakersEaglesLA to call a user with "Kobe" in his username a hater who's merely brainwashed by the media*

No mention of Magic lol the lack credibility in Here is incredible

Bruno
07-24-2014, 02:56 PM
mainly because of MJ, and the fact that the 4-5 GOAT bigs accomplished more and did more on the court than Kobe ever could.

Kobe shares the title of generational GOAT along with Duncan. two great players, in a fifteen year tug of war in a strong era. thats good enough and a hell of an accomplishment.

JasonJohnHorn
07-24-2014, 02:57 PM
Kobe passes more than Jordan of course he would have more turnovers. Refs loved Jordan more than anyone, of course less fouls.

Where are you numbers to suggest that Kobe passes the ball more?

Jordan got more assists, so assuming that they had an equal pass-to-assist ratio, Jordan passed more. And if Kobe did pass more, that just means that he passed less efficiently because Jordan than created more assists with less turnovers on less passes.... you are lacking facts/numbers to back up that statement, but even if it were true, it would still imply Jordan is a better play maker since if he did pass less, a higher percentage of his passes led to baskets.

But that said, you have to be on crack if you think Kobe passes the ball 'a lot'. He might have this season in the few games he played, but he doesn't typically.

As to officials 'loving somebody', you CANNOT use that argument with Kobe. There is no player in the league other than Shaq and LBJ who the officials were as friendly with.

Jordan and Kobe BOTH got special treatment from the officials. Let's not pretend otherwise.

ManRam
07-24-2014, 02:58 PM
I think that was more coming from what he did on the court rather than the media. I don't particularly remember a time where Kobe was adorned by the media as much as guys like lbj, Favre, and the likes. The media have been meh on Kobe iirc.

How long has LeBron been "adorned" by the media, in your opinion. Just so I can get a good perspective here. Most argue he was at a point the most unfairly criticized pro athlete.

jerellh528
07-24-2014, 03:00 PM
mainly because of MJ, and the fact that the 4-5 GOAT bigs accomplished more and did more on the court than Kobe ever could.

Kobe shares the title of generational GOAT along with Duncan. two great players, in a fifteen year tug of war in a strong era. thats good enough and a hell of an accomplishment.

True, bigs should almost be in a class of their own. They literally are the biggest players on the court and stay closest to the basket on every play. Their impact will be felt more than a small by default. As far as wings/ guards go, I have Kobe right behind mj which is a huge accomplishment in a league historically dominated by 7 footers.

dalton749
07-24-2014, 03:00 PM
he isnt even top 3 all-time lakers lol

jerellh528
07-24-2014, 03:04 PM
How long has LeBron been "adorned" by the media, in your opinion. Just so I can get a good perspective here. Most argue he was at a point the most unfairly criticized pro athlete.

Yea I don't get that whatsoever. Why do people say he's the most criticized athlete? I think that's fabrication from pad honestly. I've never once watched tv or listened to the radio or read an article that even once made me think, omg such harsh criticism! He's mostly beloved by the media on most accounts I've witnessed. And that's all I use media for, sports. I'd say he's been the NBA's golden child pretty much since he stepped foot on a court, became a villain in 2010 then a hero again after his first ring.

IKnowHoops
07-24-2014, 03:04 PM
do you remember kobe's prime? he was the most feared player in the nba lol he had the ability to go on a 20-0 run by himself thats why i would still take him over lebron ALLTIME at this point. 2 finals mvp doesnt equal a guy who has 5 championships to go along with 2 finals mvp. Sure the lakers had shaq who was the most dominant center ever but in the 4th the offense ran through kobe. Lebron is better all around but kobe has that jordan-like killer instinct in him

Lebron scoring the teams last 29 points and all of the teams 4th quarter and overtime points in game 5 eastern playoffs was more spectacular, clutch and meaningful than anything Kobe has ever done in his life.

beyourself
07-24-2014, 03:04 PM
Michael Jordan was so much better than Kobe it's not even funny. Kobe doesn't even register on Jordan's radar.

L8kers4life
07-24-2014, 03:06 PM
LOL's,but you are also right.
Shaq, Bynum, Dwight Howard, Gasol

Kobe didnt drive Bynum (traded) and Gasol (left in free agency because team sucks) out of town, and Dwight Howard is a ****** he ran himself out of town, he couldn't handle palying with Kobe.

FlashBolt
07-24-2014, 03:07 PM
I actually thought your were talking about Jordan until that last line.

Jordan had a much higher BBIQ, was a much better post player (Kobe modeled his post-play after Jordan's after all, with some help from The Dream; Jordan was an AMAZING post player). Jordan had a much better shot, better foot work and much better fundamentals considering he was a better defender, got more steals with less fouls and more assists with less turnovers. How is Kobe a better fundamental player when Jordan excels him in fundamental categories like fouls and turnovers?

I can't argue with the BBIQ. Post player, Jordan wins as well. Jordan did not have a better shot.. That is a pure misconception. People think just because Jordan hit some game winners with a jump shot that he was a consistent shooter - which anyone who knows a thing or two will know Kobe was a much better perimeter player. Jordan got more steals because his team was defensive minded. A better defensive team overall will always make a player look great defensively. Rodman/Pippen were arguably better defensive players than Jordan and all three of them are some of the greatest defensive players of all time (top 10). Jordan's blocks and steals had a lot to do with it. He gambled A LOT for those steals and blocks. Kobe's team were never as great defensively. Shaq wasn't even a great defender. He was just a big body presence. Better footwork is also a lie. Bryant's footwork is top-notch. To say Jordan's footwork is better than Kobe's is just pure reputation.. How do you even distinguish who had the better footwork? You'd have to watch all their games and still, judging footwork amongst two of the greatest at it is impossible. But the fact that Kobe has learned more and has studied the game much longer, his footwork has been more impressive. Let's be honest, Jordan was NBA's posterboy and they undoubtedly gave him superstar treatment that no one will ever receive. And I don't know where you're getting less fouls from. Kobe averaged 2.5 FPG and MJ averaged 2.6 FPG. C'mon, how naive do you have to be to say Jordan was better at EVERYTHING? He was better at most things but Kobe beats him in his own things as well. Jordan himself said that Kobe would probably beat him in a 1v1 if it ever happened. Why? Because he knows Kobe is dangerously very similar to himself. And when you're as cocky and prideful as Jordan, to admit something like that already speaks of the high regard of Kobe.

Bruno
07-24-2014, 03:09 PM
True, bigs should almost be in a class of their own. They literally are the biggest players on the court and stay closest to the basket on every play. Their impact will be felt more than a small by default. As far as wings/ guards go, I have Kobe right behind mj which is a huge accomplishment in a league historically dominated by 7 footers.

as do I.

beyourself
07-24-2014, 03:10 PM
People are over analyzing

Scoring-Jordan
Passing-Jordan
Rebounding-Jordan
1-on-1 Defense- Jordan
Help Defense-Jordan
Ball Handling-Jordan
Basketball IQ-Jordan

It's a wipeout and that's not trolling, it's the damn truth.

JasonJohnHorn
07-24-2014, 03:10 PM
Kobephile here to explain the Kobephiel Logic.

Jordan got less turnovers and more assists, but Kobe is the better fundamental player because even though fundamentals is about reducing turnovers and efficient play, Kobe is more fundamental even though he's not as good because he's better.

Jordan got more steals with less fouls, but Kobe is more fundamental, because fundamental is Kobe and though he got less steals and committed more fouls, he did it in a more funamentally sound way.

Jordan has a higher TS% and FG%, but Kobe has a slightly higher 3P% and FT% and although Kobe scored less and took more shot, he shot the ball better even though it went in more often for Jordan. And the shot that Kobe hit were more miraculous and the hit the net better, so even though he did it less efficiently, he did it better.


Jordan got more assists, but he also got to play with Bill Cartwright at center, where as Kobe only had Shaq. plus, even though Kobe got less assists, his assists meant more because he passed them so well, even if they resulted in more turnovers, and his teammates were more happy to get the ball because Kobe was shooting so awesomely more than them.

Jordan hit more game winning shots, but Kobe was more awesome at them, because when he missed them Robert Horry would get the rebound and hit a three to win the game, or Fisher would hit a three... if Kobe hadn't missed a forced circus shot at the end of the game, the long rebound wouldn't have gone to an open Horry at the 3-point line and the game would have ended, so he really just passed it off the heel of the rim to Horry.

Jordan got more rebounds, but he did it in a league where he was playing against weak rebounders like Hakeem, Mumtombo, Mourning, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing Barkley and Malone, and he had a weak rebounder on his team like Rodman, but Kobe had to compete with rebounders like Rik Smits, and Yao Ming and Greg Ostertag, and Todd MacCulloch and Baby Davis. Plus when Kobe rebounded, it was more skilled even though it happened less.


And even though Jordan was 5 regular season MVP's and Kobe only has 1, Kobe's one is more skilled and talented than Jordans, like lke his Zero DPOY and Zero ROY's are only because he was so awesome people forgot that he was skilled and talented so they gave the awards to others. And his 2 finals MVPs are better than Jordan's 6 because he was more awesomeness skilled.

And evne though Jordan has more rings in fewer season, Kobe's 5 is better than Jordan's 6 because he got drafted by a contender that has Shaq and two other All-Stars, where as Jordan got drafted by a lottery team, so Jordan had seasons to grow where as Kobe made the three All-Stars he was with win sooner.

So in conclusion, Kobe's number's aren't as good because he's more skilled awesome because Kobe.

mngopher35
07-24-2014, 03:11 PM
I am not in the extreme category, I'm a person who played high school and college basketball so I look at the game from a players perspective. And from most players perspective Kobe is top 5 all day long

Tons of people who rank players or voted in these polls play or played a lot of basketball and he is usually around 6-11 on lists. Most don't have Kobe in the 1-3 range, that is extreme to me.

LakersEaglesLA
07-24-2014, 03:15 PM
i can't argue with the bbiq. Post player, jordan wins as well. Jordan did not have a better shot.. That is a pure misconception. People think just because jordan hit some game winners with a jump shot that he was a consistent shooter - which anyone who knows a thing or two will know kobe was a much better perimeter player. Jordan got more steals because his team was defensive minded. A better defensive team overall will always make a player look great defensively. Rodman/pippen were arguably better defensive players than jordan and all three of them are some of the greatest defensive players of all time (top 10). Jordan's blocks and steals had a lot to do with it. He gambled a lot for those steals and blocks. Kobe's team were never as great defensively. Shaq wasn't even a great defender. He was just a big body presence. Better footwork is also a lie. Bryant's footwork is top-notch. To say jordan's footwork is better than kobe's is just pure reputation.. How do you even distinguish who had the better footwork? You'd have to watch all their games and still, judging footwork amongst two of the greatest at it is impossible. But the fact that kobe has learned more and has studied the game much longer, his footwork has been more impressive. Let's be honest, jordan was nba's posterboy and they undoubtedly gave him superstar treatment that no one will ever receive. And i don't know where you're getting less fouls from. Kobe averaged 2.5 fpg and mj averaged 2.6 fpg. C'mon, how naive do you have to be to say jordan was better at everything? He was better at most things but kobe beats him in his own things as well. Jordan himself said that kobe would probably beat him in a 1v1 if it ever happened. Why? Because he knows kobe is dangerously very similar to himself. And when you're as cocky and prideful as jordan, to admit something like that already speaks of the high regard of kobe.

thank you!

L8kers4life
07-24-2014, 03:15 PM
:laugh:


We might have a new guy at the top of the Kobephile totem pole!


Kobe was adorned by the media for the vast, vast, vast majority of his career. He was without a doubt the league's most popular player for a very long time. You're reaching, hard.


I'm a huge Jordan and Kobe fan, and I'm sorry Kobe is not on Jordans level. Kobe's game mimics Jordans and he is the closest to him. With that being said. Kobe is less athletic, creative, efficient, not as good defensively, fadeaway isnt as good, finishing at the rim is not as good, mid range not as good, and he is worse teammate. The only thing Kobe hasd over Jordan is 3 point shooting, ball handeling, streakiness, and loyalty.

ManRam
07-24-2014, 03:16 PM
Jerell, and this also continues to **** on LakersEaglesLA,

LeBron passed Kobe as the most popular player last summer (http://espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/story/_/id/9512608/poll-shows-lebron-james-passes-kobe-bryant-nba-most-popular-player). Kobe had that title for a very long time.

However, among 2013 rookies, Kobe was voted as the most popular (http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/23344646/kobe-bryan-voted-most-popular-nba-player-by-2013-rookie-class). If the media is conspiring against Kobe, they're doing a bad job because everyone loves him.

This poll last week says he is the 5th most popular athlete in the US (http://www.lakersnation.com/kobe-bryant-ranks-fifth-in-poll-for-most-popular-athlete-in-america/2014/07/17/), behind only Jordan, Jeter, Peyton and LeBron.

2007, super popular. (http://www.nba.com/news/jerseys_070110.html)

2012? Still going! (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/london/basketball/story/2012-08-06/Bryant-most-popular-US-athlete/56878630/1)


Yes, Kobe was pretty hated in the early-mid 2000s, but he still had a large faction of loyal fans, larger than I've really ever seen. And like most people -- LeBron included -- winning again got people over that. I'd say that without a doubt Kobe has been the most popular player in the NBA from sometime in the mid-2000s (maybe 2006 or 2007) until probably sometimes after LeBron's first ring. I'd venture that even that was closer to the end of the 2013 season than anything else.

I just can't buy the "the only reason he's not universally ranked as a top-3 player is because of the media" or any argument about popularity. I'm sure there are people that clearly rank him lower than he should be because they dislike him, but suggesting that it's the only reason he's not universally considered a top-3 player is just ridiculous. These excuses are just defense mechanisms. Nothing more, nothing less.

FlashBolt
07-24-2014, 03:16 PM
Yea I don't get that whatsoever. Why do people say he's the most criticized athlete? I think that's fabrication from pad honestly. I've never once watched tv or listened to the radio or read an article that even once made me think, omg such harsh criticism! He's mostly beloved by the media on most accounts I've witnessed. And that's all I use media for, sports. I'd say he's been the NBA's golden child pretty much since he stepped foot on a court, became a villain in 2010 then a hero again after his first ring.

He gets criticized for making the correct pass to an open teammate. He passes to a wide open Bosh, he misses and they blame him for creating an OPEN shot for a supposedly top 15 player. The next time he did it, Bosh made it and they say Bosh was "clutch" on that three. He gets blamed for the things many players don't. I don't recall the media stirring up garbage of choking when Kobe misses (and believe me, there are many times he has choked by media's standards). The fact is, when did LeBron ever make a mistake such as being drunk, gun charges, drugs, cheating on his wife, etc,.? Never. Yet, the media turns something out of nothing every time. Kobe's personality makes him unlikeable. I personally love that he's a grunt and ready to battle but the general public doesn't. If he is scrutinized, it's because he deserved it. AKA, affairs. AKA, divorce. AKA, throwing teammates under the bus. What has James done? Publicly went on T.V. so he can donate $3 million just by saying "I'm taking my talents to South Beach"? Is that really even comparable?


he isnt even top 3 all-time lakers lol

Magic, KAJ, Shaq, Wilt. Lakers are the most storied franchise. To be a top 5 Lakers is an accomplishment in itself and warrants a top 10 position considering the top 10 GOAT's are mostly from the Lakers.


I am by no means saying Kobe is the goat, but for the people saying there is no year where Kobe was the best player in the nba, u guys are on some serious drugs or plain hating. Were u guys living under a rock between 04-09?

He wasn't the best player from 04-09 consecutively. Maybe 2 or 3 of those years but James/Wade were better the rest of those years.. Stop sucking on Kobe. Statistics and team records prove Kobe wasn't the best for those 6 years..

LakersEaglesLA
07-24-2014, 03:24 PM
He gets criticized for making the correct pass to an open teammate. He passes to a wide open Bosh, he misses and they blame him for creating an OPEN shot for a supposedly top 15 player. The next time he did it, Bosh made it and they say Bosh was "clutch" on that three. He gets blamed for the things many players don't. I don't recall the media stirring up garbage of choking when Kobe misses (and believe me, there are many times he has choked by media's standards). The fact is, when did LeBron ever make a mistake such as being drunk, gun charges, drugs, cheating on his wife, etc,.? Never. Yet, the media turns something out of nothing every time. Kobe's personality makes him unlikeable. I personally love that he's a grunt and ready to battle but the general public doesn't. If he is scrutinized, it's because he deserved it. AKA, affairs. AKA, divorce. AKA, throwing teammates under the bus. What has James done? Publicly went on T.V. so he can donate $3 million just by saying "I'm taking my talents to South Beach"? Is that really even comparable?



Magic, KAJ, Shaq, Wilt. Lakers are the most storied franchise. To be a top 5 Lakers is an accomplishment in itself and warrants a top 10 position considering the top 10 GOAT's are mostly from the Lakers.



He wasn't the best player from 04-09 consecutively. Maybe 2 or 3 of those years but James/Wade were better the rest of those years.. Stop sucking on Kobe. Statistics and team records prove Kobe wasn't the best for those 6 years..

You Don't Know What The HELL you talkin bout

jerellh528
07-24-2014, 03:26 PM
Jerell, and this also continues to **** on LakersEaglesLA,

LeBron passed Kobe as the most popular player last summer (http://espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/story/_/id/9512608/poll-shows-lebron-james-passes-kobe-bryant-nba-most-popular-player). Kobe had that title for a very long time.

However, among 2013 rookies, Kobe was voted as the most popular (http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/23344646/kobe-bryan-voted-most-popular-nba-player-by-2013-rookie-class). If the media is conspiring against Kobe, they're doing a bad job because everyone loves him.

This poll last week says he is the 5th most popular athlete in the US (http://www.lakersnation.com/kobe-bryant-ranks-fifth-in-poll-for-most-popular-athlete-in-america/2014/07/17/), behind only Jordan, Jeter, Peyton and LeBron.

2007, super popular. (http://www.nba.com/news/jerseys_070110.html)

2012? Still going! (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/london/basketball/story/2012-08-06/Bryant-most-popular-US-athlete/56878630/1)


Yes, Kobe was pretty hated in the early-mid 2000s, but he still had a large faction of loyal fans, larger than I've really ever seen. And like most people -- LeBron included -- winning again got people over that. I'd say that without a doubt Kobe has been the most popular player in the NBA from sometime in the mid-2000s (maybe 2006 or 2007) until probably sometimes after LeBron's first ring. I'd venture that even that was closer to the end of the 2013 season than anything else.

I just can't buy the "the only reason he's not universally ranked as a top-3 player is because of the media" or any argument about popularity. I'm sure there are people that clearly rank him lower than he should be because they dislike him, but suggesting that it's the only reason he's not universally considered a top-3 player is just ridiculous. These excuses are just defense mechanisms. Nothing more, nothing less.

His popularity stems from being the king of la and a killer on the court, not the media. The media doesn't prop up Kobe, why would they? He's not a great interview, been accused of rape, he's socially awkward, a loner. Lbj on the other hand, makes dance videos for YouTube, is super receptive to media's adornment, self promotes and loves the media. He's the obvious choice for media's golden boy.

ManRam
07-24-2014, 03:35 PM
Yea I don't get that whatsoever. Why do people say he's the most criticized athlete? I think that's fabrication from pad honestly. I've never once watched tv or listened to the radio or read an article that even once made me think, omg such harsh criticism! He's mostly beloved by the media on most accounts I've witnessed. And that's all I use media for, sports. I'd say he's been the NBA's golden child pretty much since he stepped foot on a court, became a villain in 2010 then a hero again after his first ring.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=most+criticized+athletes


Link 1 (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1148359-tony-romo-and-the-most-criticized-figures-in-sports/page/7): includes LeBron. "LeBron James will always be the most criticized players to put the basketball in the hoop."

Link 2 (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1234606-russell-westbrook-and-the-10-most-unfairly-criticized-players-in-the-nba/page/10): LeBron at #2. Ugh, another BR article, but we're just looking for opinion/consensus thought. So, whatever.

Link 3 (https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130618075131AAoDW16): A Yahoo questions link asking if he's the most criticized player in the world. Most answers say yes, or just bash him. So...yeah...

Link 4: A message board that I won't link. Much of the conversation surrounds LeBron. Kobe is there too.

Link 5 (http://www.h4-entertainment.com/2012/06/lebron-james-the-unfinished-story-of-the-most-unfairly-criticized-athlete-ever/): A piece titled "LeBron James: The Unfinished Story of the Most Unfairly Criticized Athlete Ever". Well, that's blunt.

Link 6 (http://www.rantsports.com/clubhouse/2012/10/10/top-15-most-hated-athletes-in-sports/#slide_13): LeBron ranks #4, behind Tiger, Bonds and Vick. Unlike those three, he's not hated for cheating, being unfaithful or being a criminal...

Link 7: Nothing to do with this. As do the rest.

Cracked: http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-celebrities-who-get-way-more-hate-than-they-deserve/






Look, you live in a bubble. If you genuinely believe you have never heard the media get on him you are truly delusional. Period.

The dude had a book published about him called "The Whore of Akron".

When the dude PASSES THE BALL it's a national debate until the next time he plays. He's ripped to pieces for minutia consistently. You take part in it ALL THE DAMN TIME! How can you not see it!

Skip Bayless exists.

Charles Barkley exists.

His Wikipedia page mentions "criticized" 6 times and "criticism" 7 times. Kobe's? Zero. Zilch.

Dan Gilbert happened.

Adrian Wojnarowski (http://deadspin.com/5811311/every-overwrought-thing-adrian-wojnarowski-has-said-about-lebron-james), perhaps the most respected news-breaker, has wrote some unbeliavably dumb things about LeBron. His criticism is so staunch that it makes up 1/4th of his wikipedia page.

This website exists: http://ihatelebronjames.com/?page_id=10

Forbes has touched upon how hated he is, and why: http://www.forbes.com/sites/monteburke/2012/05/21/why-do-we-hate-lebron-james/

Hell, Forbes wrote a piece called "The Demonization of LeBron James (http://www.forbes.com/sites/sportsmoney/2011/06/16/the-demonization-of-lebron-james/)"

Probably the only thing that needs to be said/read: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/love-and-hate-in-the-lebron-era/



I don't know why I have the urge to prove you wrong when 1) you won't change 2) you live in a bubble 3) this isn't really even up for debate. But whatever.

WadeKobe
07-24-2014, 03:38 PM
No mention of Magic lol the lack credibility in Here is incredible

No mention of Magic?

Look, if you wanna bring that up I am the wron guy to make your point. I think Magic and MJ are interchangeable at 1. I just know it is such an unpopular opinion, especially with Kobe stans, there was no need bringing magic up and starting down that route.

FlashBolt
07-24-2014, 03:38 PM
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=most+criticized+athletes


Link 1 (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1148359-tony-romo-and-the-most-criticized-figures-in-sports/page/7): includes LeBron. "LeBron James will always be the most criticized players to put the basketball in the hoop."

Link 2 (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1234606-russell-westbrook-and-the-10-most-unfairly-criticized-players-in-the-nba/page/10): LeBron at #2. Ugh, another BR article, but we're just looking for opinion/consensus thought. So, whatever.

Link 3 (https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130618075131AAoDW16): A Yahoo questions link asking if he's the most criticized player in the world. Most answers say yes, or just bash him. So...yeah...

Link 4: A message board that I won't link. Much of the conversation surrounds LeBron. Kobe is there too.

Link 5 (http://www.h4-entertainment.com/2012/06/lebron-james-the-unfinished-story-of-the-most-unfairly-criticized-athlete-ever/): A piece titled "LeBron James: The Unfinished Story of the Most Unfairly Criticized Athlete Ever". Well, that's blunt.

Link 6 (http://www.rantsports.com/clubhouse/2012/10/10/top-15-most-hated-athletes-in-sports/#slide_13): LeBron ranks #4, behind Tiger, Bonds and Vick. Unlike those three, he's not hated for cheating, being unfaithful or being a criminal...

Link 7: Nothing to do with this. As do the rest.

Cracked: http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-celebrities-who-get-way-more-hate-than-they-deserve/






Look, you live in a bubble. If you genuinely believe you have never heard the media get on him you are truly delusional. Period.

The dude had a book published about him called "The Whore of Akron".

When the dude PASSES THE BALL it's a national debate until the next time he plays. He's ripped to pieces for minutia consistently. You take part in it ALL THE DAMN TIME! How can you not see it!

Skip Bayless exists.

Charles Barkley exists.

His Wikipedia page mentions "criticized" 6 times and "criticism" 7 times. Kobe's? Zero. Zilch.

Dan Gilbert happened.

Adrian Wojnarowski (http://deadspin.com/5811311/every-overwrought-thing-adrian-wojnarowski-has-said-about-lebron-james), perhaps the most respected news-breaker, has wrote some unbeliavably dumb things about LeBron. His criticism is so staunch that it makes up 1/4th of his wikipedia page.

This website exists: http://ihatelebronjames.com/?page_id=10

Forbes has touched upon how hated he is, and why: http://www.forbes.com/sites/monteburke/2012/05/21/why-do-we-hate-lebron-james/

Hell, Forbes wrote a piece called "The Demonization of LeBron James (http://www.forbes.com/sites/sportsmoney/2011/06/16/the-demonization-of-lebron-james/)"

Probably the only thing that needs to be said/read: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/love-and-hate-in-the-lebron-era/



I don't know why I have the urge to prove you wrong when 1) you won't change 2) you live in a bubble 3) this isn't really even up for debate. But whatever.


http://speedcap.net/sharing/files/45/16/45169cd1861e62abcdf7c5b55058e680.png

This is pathetic.

You shut him up but I'll still expect him to reply with 1) no proof 2) some crap that makes no sense

jerellh528
07-24-2014, 03:42 PM
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=most+criticized+athletes


Link 1 (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1148359-tony-romo-and-the-most-criticized-figures-in-sports/page/7): includes LeBron. "LeBron James will always be the most criticized players to put the basketball in the hoop."

Link 2 (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1234606-russell-westbrook-and-the-10-most-unfairly-criticized-players-in-the-nba/page/10): LeBron at #2. Ugh, another BR article, but we're just looking for opinion/consensus thought. So, whatever.

Link 3 (https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130618075131AAoDW16): A Yahoo questions link asking if he's the most criticized player in the world. Most answers say yes, or just bash him. So...yeah...

Link 4: A message board that I won't link. Much of the conversation surrounds LeBron. Kobe is there too.

Link 5 (http://www.h4-entertainment.com/2012/06/lebron-james-the-unfinished-story-of-the-most-unfairly-criticized-athlete-ever/): A piece titled "LeBron James: The Unfinished Story of the Most Unfairly Criticized Athlete Ever". Well, that's blunt.

Link 6 (http://www.rantsports.com/clubhouse/2012/10/10/top-15-most-hated-athletes-in-sports/#slide_13): LeBron ranks #4, behind Tiger, Bonds and Vick. Unlike those three, he's not hated for cheating, being unfaithful or being a criminal...

Link 7: Nothing to do with this. As do the rest.

Cracked: http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-celebrities-who-get-way-more-hate-than-they-deserve/






Look, you live in a bubble. If you genuinely believe you have never heard the media get on him you are truly delusional. Period.

The dude had a book published about him called "The Whore of Akron".

When the dude PASSES THE BALL it's a national debate until the next time he plays. He's ripped to pieces for minutia consistently. You take part in it ALL THE DAMN TIME! How can you not see it!

Skip Bayless exists.

Charles Barkley exists.

His Wikipedia page mentions "criticized" 6 times and "criticism" 7 times. Kobe's? Zero. Zilch.

Dan Gilbert happened.

Adrian Wojnarowski (http://deadspin.com/5811311/every-overwrought-thing-adrian-wojnarowski-has-said-about-lebron-james), perhaps the most respected news-breaker, has wrote some unbeliavably dumb things about LeBron. His criticism is so staunch that it makes up 1/4th of his wikipedia page.

This website exists: http://ihatelebronjames.com/?page_id=10

Forbes has touched upon how hated he is, and why: http://www.forbes.com/sites/monteburke/2012/05/21/why-do-we-hate-lebron-james/

Hell, Forbes wrote a piece called "The Demonization of LeBron James (http://www.forbes.com/sites/sportsmoney/2011/06/16/the-demonization-of-lebron-james/)"

Probably the only thing that needs to be said/read: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/love-and-hate-in-the-lebron-era/



I don't know why I have the urge to prove you wrong when 1) you won't change 2) you live in a bubble 3) this isn't really even up for debate. But whatever.

Ok I keep seeing you post about him being criticized, but by who? And what are they saying? And how often does this happen to warrant most criticized player award? Fine, I'm delusion, I live in a bubble. But I won't accept the fact that just because some regurgitate the opinion that he's the most highly criticized that it's true, because I've never witnessed it. Does he get some flak for the decision? Sure, what about check my stats? Okay. Not 6 not 7 not 8? Yeah. Wilting under pressure? Sometimes. Okay but what else? What about this makes him, omg the most scrutinized player everz!? He's one of the best players in the nba and always puts himself in a position to be close to media outlets, ofcourse some small amount will be negative.

FlashBolt
07-24-2014, 03:45 PM
Ok I keep seeing you post about him being criticized, but by who? And what are they saying? And how often does this happen to warrant most criticized player award? Fine, I'm delusion, I live in a bubble. But I won't accept the fact that just because some regurgitate the opinion that he's the most highly criticized that it's true, because I've never witnessed it. Does he get some flak for the decision? Sure, what about check my stats? Okay. Not 6 not 7 not 8? Yeah. Wilting under pressure? Sometimes. Okay but what else? What about this makes him, omg the most scrutinized player everz!? He's one of the best players in the nba and always puts himself in a position to be close to media outlets, ofcourse some small amount will be negative.

If you don't see it, it's because you refuse to believe it..

jerellh528
07-24-2014, 03:45 PM
http://speedcap.net/sharing/files/45/16/45169cd1861e62abcdf7c5b55058e680.png

This is pathetic.

You shut him up but I'll still expect him to reply with 1) no proof 2) some crap that makes no sense

Just googled similar shirts for other players too. Lbj isn't the only guy ever to have a x player sucks shirt lolol

FlashBolt
07-24-2014, 03:47 PM
Just googled similar shirts for other players too. Lbj isn't the only guy ever to have a x player sucks shirt lolol

I didn't even google these. It was on one of those links ManRam gave out. It's pathetic to make these shirts regardless of who the player is.

dnl123
07-24-2014, 03:48 PM
If we're looking at greatness in basketball only by one measurement of purely points per game, or even ability to score points in a single game maybe Kobe is the best, but there are so many other measures that I consider important to basketball that aren't about scoring. If you think Kobe is the best because he has the potential when hot to score 80 points that's great, but I care more about overall dominance, efficiency, and consistency in being a focal point for your team in other aspects. Kobe is average at many of those aspects and that is why I think he's behind both Lebron and MJ. I think you have to make different lists for big guys and small guys altogether. I put Kobe as #3 on the list of wings behind MJ and Lebron only. That's not hate whatsoever towards Kobe, to rank someone 3rd on a list of 3 transcendent players is not disrespectful.

YAALREADYKNO
07-24-2014, 03:50 PM
Lebron scoring the teams last 29 points and all of the teams 4th quarter and overtime points in game 5 eastern playoffs was more spectacular, clutch and meaningful than anything Kobe has ever done in his life.


you must really like lebron and really hate kobe lmao

ManRam
07-24-2014, 03:51 PM
If you don't see it, it's because you refuse to believe it..

I just listened to a Cracked podcast (http://www.earwolf.com/episode/your-memory-is-a-filthy-liar/) on memory...and how terribly unreliable the human memory is. I think jerell would be a great source of subject matter. It truly is because he refuses to believe it. Or memory is constantly manipulated to the point that we frequently believe remembering things that absolutely never happened. It's an amazing thing...



We've gotten off topic, but if you are using the media to justify why people don't think like you do, you're probably reaching HARD.

JasonJohnHorn
07-24-2014, 04:06 PM
I can't argue with the BBIQ. Post player, Jordan wins as well. Jordan did not have a better shot.. That is a pure misconception.

Yeah. People think that just because Jordan hit more shot than Kobe that he hit more shots than Kobe. Just like they think that just because Jordan had a higher FG% than Kobe, that he therefore had a higher FG% than Kobe, but in reality, Kobe actually hit more shots and had a better FG%, because numbers are misleading.

Just because Jordan hit more shots doesn't mean he was a better shooter. It just means that he didn't miss as many shots and that he hit more.

Am I right?

AIRMAR72
07-24-2014, 04:07 PM
First and foremost I am not trolling here but simply wanting to get a a better understanding from some of the posters here who actually are basketball 'experts'.

I dont really post here often but i do read a lot of the forum questions and replies you guys post.

I started watching the NBA in 2002 and IMO Kobe has been the best player I've ever seen and I base that off his footwork, his athleticism, total offensive arsenal and his sheer willingness to win at all costs (which I think a lot of you guys take for granted).

Theres a lot of hate on this man and I dont understand why people do not consider him to be the greatest to play the game? Is it because Michael was such a god during his time and his name as well as influence worldwide makes him untouchable? Or is there actually something that MJ can do/did that Kobe can never accomplish?

I dont think i can ever consider the Lebron to be the GOAT and not because of the idea that he is 'mentally weak' or 'unloyal' the man is a beast but I put him in the tier with Bird/Kareem/Olajuwon.

To me there are only 3 people that i see mentioning as the possible candidates to be the greatest and those are Kobe-MJ-Magic.

So to keep this short: Why cant Kobe be the Greatest?
Kobe Always was out played by the likes of.. AI ,tracy,vince,duncan,pierce,Garnett that's why kobe has 1seasonal MVP that took him 15yrs he was outplayed by others thru out his career cant BE the goat

JasonJohnHorn
07-24-2014, 04:09 PM
People are over analyzing

Scoring-Jordan
Passing-Jordan
Rebounding-Jordan
1-on-1 Defense- Jordan
Help Defense-Jordan
Ball Handling-Jordan
Basketball IQ-Jordan

It's a wipeout and that's not trolling, it's the damn truth.

I know. Right. How is this even a conversation.

Jamiecballer
07-24-2014, 04:28 PM
If he could score as efficiently as MJ you could certainly have that conversation. But that's where the conversation sort of begins and ends.

Crackadalic
07-24-2014, 04:47 PM
Because he's not better then MJ

beyourself
07-24-2014, 04:54 PM
If he could score as efficiently as MJ you could certainly have that conversation. But that's where the conversation sort of begins and ends.

Maybe I'm interpreting your post wrong. You say if Kobe could score as well as Jordan there would be a conversation.

Scoring is just one part of the game right? Jordan is better than Kobe at every facet of basketball.

Jamiecballer
07-24-2014, 05:39 PM
Maybe I'm interpreting your post wrong. You say if Kobe could score as well as Jordan there would be a conversation.

Scoring is just one part of the game right? Jordan is better than Kobe at every facet of basketball.
I don't think the gap is that big in most areas. If Kobe was like Jordan scoring efficiently, having an almost 20 year career, the numbers would be overwhelming. It would make for a nice discussion.

Tony_Starks
07-24-2014, 05:40 PM
Because his numbers don't compute when placed in the Matrix.....

TornadoOfSouls
07-24-2014, 06:13 PM
He's not even the 2nd best player of the 2000s. And you think he's the GOAT? Stick to watching soccer, OP. You clearly dont know anything about basketball.

beyourself
07-24-2014, 06:27 PM
I don't think the gap is that big in most areas. If Kobe was like Jordan scoring efficiently, having an almost 20 year career, the numbers would be overwhelming. It would make for a nice discussion.

Defense is no contest. Jordan has laser like focus and agility. He blasted through screens like he was a tank.

Ball Handling is no contest. Jordan as a low turnover player.

Passing is no contest. Jordan was much better at setting up his teammates.

BBIQ is no contest. Jordan let the game flow to him.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-24-2014, 06:28 PM
skill wise hes the goat IMO but the top players is not judged only by what you're as a player but what you have accomplished through out your career.


but i still have him 2nd behind mj.

Nice to see the change of heart since my sig is a direct contradiction to that statement.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-24-2014, 06:30 PM
I'm a huge Kobe fan but he's still second to Jordan, because Kobe literally is Jordan, only a slightly crappier version of his Airness. I think Kobe's lack of MVP awards speaks for itself. In my opinion a player can't really be considered in the GOAT debate when he was only considered the best player once during his 18 season NBA career. Kobe's FG% has only ever been average also, that's not up for debate. I just don't think the argument is there for the guy. His tenacity and will matches Jordan though, which is what I love about Kobe the most. He's a killer!


Kobe was the best player in the world for many many years. MVP is a media award.

rhd420
07-24-2014, 06:30 PM
what's the chances of him using his Lakers team mates and front office as SCAPE GOATS for this season

He WAS a great player but simply put, a major part of it was the franchise in the Lakers surrounding him with talent - he certainly wasn't recruiting any to help. He is what he is, a HERO ball style player who was flashy enough to get fans attention and was lucky enough to be selected by the Lakers, team who stood by him.

Let's just say this ... Dr J, Magic & Bird, Jordan ... all elevated the league, Kobe ... just a little foot note, much like Duncan.

FlashBolt
07-24-2014, 06:32 PM
Kobe was the best player in the world for many many years. MVP is a media award.

By many, you mean 4 years at most, right?

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-24-2014, 06:33 PM
Why cant Kobe be the Greatest? Because Jordan happened.xD

This, but Kobe is will be top 5 hands down when he retires.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-24-2014, 06:34 PM
Kobe was the best player in the world for many many years. MVP is a media award.

By many, you mean 4 years at most, right?

Like 5. And top 5 for majority of his career.

NBA_Starter
07-24-2014, 07:43 PM
He needed too much help.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2014, 07:45 PM
don't feel like going back pages to defend any point I made.

I will put it real simple.

How on earth can a player be even remotely considered in the conversation for GOAT, when you can't even make an overwhelming case that he was even the best player in the game a single year he played?

nickdymez
07-24-2014, 08:13 PM
.

nickdymez
07-24-2014, 08:17 PM
The funniest thing ive read throughout this whole post is "He was never the best player in the NBA". Based on whos criteria exactly? If you hate a player, you wont consider him the best player. Even though Kobe was dominating the league and GM's and peers were all in agreement that he was the hands down best player in the league. But again, this is PSD. Advanced stats is all that matters.

nickdymez
07-24-2014, 08:19 PM
what's the chances of him using his Lakers team mates and front office as SCAPE GOATS for this season

He WAS a great player but simply put, a major part of it was the franchise in the Lakers surrounding him with talent - he certainly wasn't recruiting any to help. He is what he is, a HERO ball style player who was flashy enough to get fans attention and was lucky enough to be selected by the Lakers, team who stood by him.

Let's just say this ... Dr J, Magic & Bird, Jordan ... all elevated the league, Kobe ... just a little foot note, much like Duncan.

Even though Kobe was the most popular player in the world for many years and will continue to be when hes gone? Ok. I hate him too

Hawkeye15
07-24-2014, 08:20 PM
The funniest thing ive read throughout this whole post is "He was never the best player in the NBA". Based on whos criteria exactly? If you hate a player, you wont consider him the best player. Even though Kobe was dominating the league and GM's and peers were all in agreement that he was the hands down best player in the league. But again, this is PSD. Advanced stats is all that matters.

LeBron had more haters than any player I can remember, yet almost every one of them said he was the best player in the game.

If you won't embrace stats at all, you are basing everything off personal opinion, which is the highest level of bias.

Not asking you are illusion, but can someone who isn't a Kobe homer try and show me when he was clear cut the best player in the game at any point?

When exactly did Kobe dominate the league more than any other player?

nickdymez
07-24-2014, 08:21 PM
LeBron had more haters than any player I can remember, yet almost every one of them said he was the best player in the game.

If you won't embrace stats at all, you are basing everything off personal opinion, which is the highest level of bias.

Not asking you are illusion, but can someone who isn't a Kobe homer try and show me when he was clear cut the best player in the game at any point?

When exactly did Kobe dominate the league more than any other player?

Wilt Chamberlin and Bill Russell are the greatest players of all time. We agree. And who cares about what PSD thinks, what about the players and GM's who all came out and said it? Im going to take some people on PSD's opinion over professionals? OK Bro.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2014, 08:24 PM
Wilt Chamberlin and Bill Russell are the greatest players of all time. We agree. And who cares about what PSD thinks, what about the players and GM's who all came out and said it? Im going to take some people on PSD's opinion over professionals? OK Bro.

Bill Russell isn't a top 10 player ever. Wilt is my #3.

Do you really just live vicariously through the handful of GM's that support your opinion, bro?

Tony_Starks
07-24-2014, 08:24 PM
The funniest thing ive read throughout this whole post is "He was never the best player in the NBA". Based on whos criteria exactly? If you hate a player, you wont consider him the best player. Even though Kobe was dominating the league and GM's and peers were all in agreement that he was the hands down best player in the league. But again, this is PSD. Advanced stats is all that matters.

That's when people's bias come out. You have coaches, GMs, players including the great Lebron James himself who said and I quote "I've been quoted as saying Kobe Bryant is the best player in our league hands down" .....all saying the same thing, as recently as 2008-9. Not to mention his team USA teammates. All saying the exact same thing.

But nope, none of that is relevant. They were all wrong or simply just fooled by his "hero ball."

Hawkeye15
07-24-2014, 08:26 PM
That's when people's bias come out. You have coaches, GMs, players including the great Lebron James himself who said and I quote "I've been quoted as saying Kobe Bryant is the best player in our league hands down" .....all saying the same thing, as recently as 2008-9. Not to mention his team USA teammates. All saying the exact same thing.

But nope, none of that is relevant. They were all wrong or simply just fooled by his "hero ball."

any young player coming into the league, or a player who hasn't gotten to the top of the mountain, is going to say that. MJ said it about Bird (even though MJ was CLEARLY better than Bird ever was when he said it). So?

Why do people take players opinions as gospel? They are at least as biased as any of us.

AntiG
07-24-2014, 08:34 PM
Because he isn't

FlashBolt
07-24-2014, 08:38 PM
Just because a player said this or that doesn't mean it's true. There are regular people out there going by there day who are a better judge of talent. But whatever. I can handpick 10 NBA legends who say LeBron can surpass or is better than MJ. So it's a matter of who you want to believe at this point. No question LeBron is better than Kobe. Only thing Kobe has over LeBron at this point is longevity. Give James 8 more years and he'll give you that #3 or #2 spot.

nickdymez
07-24-2014, 08:38 PM
any young player coming into the league, or a player who hasn't gotten to the top of the mountain, is going to say that. MJ said it about Bird (even though MJ was CLEARLY better than Bird ever was when he said it). So?

Why do people take players opinions as gospel? They are at least as biased as any of us.

lmao. You hate Kobe so much, its sad...

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-24-2014, 08:47 PM
don't feel like going back pages to defend any point I made.

I will put it real simple.

How on earth can a player be even remotely considered in the conversation for GOAT, when you can't even make an overwhelming case that he was even the best player in the game a single year he played?

This proves what a Kobe hater you are hawk. Every basketball analyst in the world had Kobe number one for at least 4 years. Where does you Laker hate come from? Your Childhood?

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-24-2014, 08:48 PM
The funniest thing ive read throughout this whole post is "He was never the best player in the NBA". Based on whos criteria exactly? If you hate a player, you wont consider him the best player. Even though Kobe was dominating the league and GM's and peers were all in agreement that he was the hands down best player in the league. But again, this is PSD. Advanced stats is all that matters.

LeBron had more haters than any player I can remember, yet almost every one of them said he was the best player in the game.

If you won't embrace stats at all, you are basing everything off personal opinion, which is the highest level of bias.

Not asking you are illusion, but can someone who isn't a Kobe homer try and show me when he was clear cut the best player in the game at any point?

When exactly did Kobe dominate the league more than any other player?2005-2009

Hawkeye15
07-24-2014, 08:50 PM
So.....either of you want to actually make a case for Kobe being the best any given year, or will you hide behind others opinions that you can barely site and call anyone who doesn't agree a hater?

nickdymez
07-24-2014, 08:52 PM
So.....either of you want to actually make a case for Kobe being the best any given year, or will you hide behind others opinions that you can barely site and call anyone who doesn't agree a hater?

We have different criteria. I dont expect you to agree with my reasoning as to why i feel he was the best player at any given time. Just like i dont agree with your reasoning to why you like certain players. (Advanced stats)

Jamiecballer
07-24-2014, 08:53 PM
Nobody hates Kobe.

No offense but when 75% of the world thinks you are wrong and the other 25% are Laker fans there is a message there.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2014, 08:57 PM
We have different criteria. I dont expect you to agree with my reasoning as to why i feel he was the best player at any given time. Just like i dont agree with your reasoning to why you like certain players. (Advanced stats)

I have never even seen your criteria, though I can only guess they are entirely opinion based, with a few quotes from ex player A or B that back up your opinion.

But, we all have a different level of understanding the game, right?

nickdymez
07-24-2014, 08:58 PM
I have never even seen your criteria, though I can only guess they are entirely opinion based, with a few quotes from ex player A or B that back up your opinion.

But, we all have a different level of understanding the game, right?

Yea sure

Hawkeye15
07-24-2014, 08:59 PM
Nobody hates Kobe.

No offense but when 75% of the world thinks you are wrong and the other 25% are Laker fans there is a message there.

honestly, many of the Kobe lovers have a case, before the modern movement of understanding a player WAY BETTER due to analytics, people relied on the eye test more. So while players or GM's in 2006 had one opinion, those opinions are different now for the most part, because of the wealth of information we have been given to us during the analytical movement.

But hey, everyone is free to ignore progress, advancement, and a better understanding of the game, and stick to the archaic stuff, right?

nickdymez
07-24-2014, 09:00 PM
Nobody hates Kobe.

No offense but when 75% of the world thinks you are wrong and the other 25% are Laker fans there is a message there.

Do me a favor and shoot me the link to the poll the world participated in that concluded that 75% of the population thinks im wrong. Go ahead

nickdymez
07-24-2014, 09:02 PM
honestly, many of the Kobe lovers have a case, before the modern movement of understanding a player WAY BETTER due to analytics, people relied on the eye test more. So while players or GM's in 2006 had one opinion, those opinions are different now for the most part, because of the wealth of information we have been given to us during the analytical movement.

But hey, everyone is free to ignore progress, advancement, and a better understanding of the game, and stick to the archaic stuff, right?

You sound ridiculous man

Jamiecballer
07-24-2014, 09:06 PM
Do me a favor and shoot me the link to the poll the world participated in that concluded that 75% of the population thinks im wrong. Go ahead
Classic denial bud. I suppose you haven't noticed its the same 10 posters out of the thousands on PSD and 8 of them or better have the word "laker", " Kobe" or something along those lines in their username or signature.

Whatever you do, don't stay open-minded. It would be a shame if any of you guys grew or learned something.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-24-2014, 09:07 PM
So.....either of you want to actually make a case for Kobe being the best any given year, or will you hide behind others opinions that you can barely site and call anyone who doesn't agree a hater?


You are a completely blind fool if you think Kobe has never been the best player in the league. What an absolute ludicrous statement

nickdymez
07-24-2014, 09:09 PM
Classic denial bud. I suppose you haven't noticed its the same 10 posters out of the thousands on PSD and 8 of them or better have the word "laker", " Kobe" or something along those lines in their username or signature.

Whatever you do, don't stay open-minded. It would be a shame if any of you guys grew or learned something.

Show me the link

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-24-2014, 09:10 PM
Nobody hates Kobe.

No offense but when 75% of the world thinks you are wrong and the other 25% are Laker fans there is a message there.apparently Psd = the world :laugh2:

numba1CHANGsta
07-24-2014, 09:11 PM
becuz of zee haterz

nickdymez
07-24-2014, 09:12 PM
apparently Psd = the world :laugh2:

exactly. Because PSD is literally the only place i've seen this much hate for Kobe

Jamiecballer
07-24-2014, 09:22 PM
apparently Psd = the world :laugh2:
Not just PSD. Just about any destination site for sports fans. It's the Lakers fans versus just about everyone else.

I'll put it to you this way - if 2 people tell you that you are an alcoholic, you shrug it off. If 5 people do it, you start to wonder. When everybody but your drinking buddies tells you you're an alcoholic, alarm bells should be going off dude.

exactly. Because PSD is literally the only place i've seen this much hate for Kobe

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-24-2014, 09:25 PM
apparently Psd = the world :laugh2:
Not just PSD. Just about any destination site for sports fans. It's the Lakers fans versus just about everyone else.

I'll put it to you this way - if 2 people tell you that you are an alcoholic, you shrug it off. If 5 people do it, you start to wonder. When everybody but your drinking buddies tells you you're an alcoholic, alarm bells should be going off dude.

exactly. Because PSD is literally the only place i've seen this much hate for Kobe

Links?


Why don't you talk about the pro analyst who disagree with you?

nickdymez
07-24-2014, 09:25 PM
Not just PSD. Just about any destination site for sports fans. It's the Lakers fans versus just about everyone else.

I'll put it to you this way - if 2 people tell you that you are an alcoholic, you shrug it off. If 5 people do it, you start to wonder. When everybody but your drinking buddies tells you you're an alcoholic, alarm bells should be going off dude.

You right bro

kantarok
07-24-2014, 09:35 PM
He cannot ever be the best because he is not that good in reality. Players that impact the game more than him are Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'neal, Lebron James and more. Kobe at the same level as Tmac, iverson and vince carter until they all got injured and started marketing him like mad. When Shaq got old they started to use the 3 rings that Shaq got for him as a way to put him at a higher level than Tmac, Vince and the rest. He really is overrated. The Truth

bucketss
07-24-2014, 09:39 PM
He cannot ever be the best because he is not that good in reality. Players that impact the game more than him are Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'neal, Lebron James and more. Kobe at the same level as Tmac, iverson and vince carter until they all got injured and started marketing him like mad. When Shaq got old they started to use the 3 rings that Shaq got for him as a way to put him at a higher level than Tmac, Vince and the rest. He really is overrated. The Truth

lol c'mon bro thats just blasphemous *StephenAsmithVoice*

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-24-2014, 09:41 PM
He cannot ever be the best because he is not that good in reality. Players that impact the game more than him are Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'neal, Lebron James and more. Kobe at the same level as Tmac, iverson and vince carter until they all got injured and started marketing him like mad. When Shaq got old they started to use the 3 rings that Shaq got for him as a way to put him at a higher level than Tmac, Vince and the rest. He really is overrated. The Truth

And the winner for the worst post In the thread goes tooooooooo.

AIRMAR72
07-24-2014, 09:48 PM
You are a completely blind fool if you think Kobe has never been the best player in the league. What an absolute ludicrous statement 1MVP son clearly explain that kobe NEVER dominated the league and DON'T reach for 5 fingers of death theory because that's a TEAM thing when comes to rings

jerellh528
07-24-2014, 09:49 PM
15 pages. Must be somethin to converse about. Even the haters have no choice but to talk about him.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2014, 09:54 PM
15 pages. Must be somethin to converse about. Even the haters have no choice but to talk about him.

you know there are a few Kobe fans that turn these threads into the most ridiculously long ordeals ever, cmon.

AIRMAR72
07-24-2014, 09:56 PM
He cannot ever be the best because he is not that good in reality. Players that impact the game more than him are Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'neal, Lebron James and more. Kobe at the same level as Tmac, iverson and vince carter until they all got injured and started marketing him like mad. When Shaq got old they started to use the 3 rings that Shaq got for him as a way to put him at a higher level than Tmac, Vince and the rest. He really is overrated. The Truth Agreed too bad the kobe fanatics are ALL mentally ill suffering from kobeitis they honestly believe the RUBBISH they post on PSD and the highlights on ESPN

nickdymez
07-24-2014, 10:06 PM
you know there are a few Kobe fans that turn these threads into the most ridiculously long ordeals ever, cmon.

I didn't post till page 12. Good thing you weren't talking about me.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-24-2014, 10:45 PM
You are a completely blind fool if you think Kobe has never been the best player in the league. What an absolute ludicrous statement 1MVP son clearly explain that kobe NEVER dominated the league and DON'T reach for 5 fingers of death theory because that's a TEAM thing when comes to ringsnash has two Mvps and never dominated. Nice argument buddy

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-24-2014, 10:46 PM
15 pages. Must be somethin to converse about. Even the haters have no choice but to talk about him.

you know there are a few Kobe fans that turn these threads into the most ridiculously long ordeals ever, cmon.

Or Kobe haters trying to convince everyone of their beliefs.

nickdymez
07-24-2014, 11:07 PM
nash has two Mvps and never dominated. Nice argument buddy

Pretty much

TheMightyHumph
07-25-2014, 12:07 AM
First and foremost I am not trolling here but simply wanting to get a a better understanding from some of the posters here who actually are basketball 'experts'.

I dont really post here often but i do read a lot of the forum questions and replies you guys post.

I started watching the NBA in 2002 and IMO Kobe has been the best player I've ever seen and I base that off his footwork, his athleticism, total offensive arsenal and his sheer willingness to win at all costs (which I think a lot of you guys take for granted).

Theres a lot of hate on this man and I dont understand why people do not consider him to be the greatest to play the game? Is it because Michael was such a god during his time and his name as well as influence worldwide makes him untouchable? Or is there actually something that MJ can do/did that Kobe can never accomplish?

I dont think i can ever consider the Lebron to be the GOAT and not because of the idea that he is 'mentally weak' or 'unloyal' the man is a beast but I put him in the tier with Bird/Kareem/Olajuwon.

To me there are only 3 people that i see mentioning as the possible candidates to be the greatest and those are Kobe-MJ-Magic.

So to keep this short: Why cant Kobe be the Greatest?

Some people consider him the GOAT. I'd say that most people don't.

AIRMAR72
07-25-2014, 12:49 AM
nash has two Mvps and never dominated. Nice argument buddyand you know WHAT Steve Nash was BETTER in his PRIME compared to kobe in his prime

Bostonjorge
07-25-2014, 01:18 AM
Kobe is cemented in the top 4. Deal with it.

FlashBolt
07-25-2014, 01:21 AM
If you take prime Nash over prime Kobe, you must be the front office for the Timberwolves..

nickdymez
07-25-2014, 01:50 AM
and you know WHAT Steve Nash was BETTER in his PRIME compared to kobe in his prime

You should be banned for trolling

bucketss
07-25-2014, 02:05 AM
You should be banned for trolling

you need stop saying that dude

nickdymez
07-25-2014, 02:16 AM
you need stop saying that dude

Your the king Troll

Hulk6
07-25-2014, 02:59 AM
Basically all i've got from this is that a lot of people put their emotions when deciding who is the better player and a lot of you have a sad amount of hate towards this man as if the girl he allegedly raped was your sister/mother/daughter.

I understand that he may not be better than jordan or even magic but for those who are comparing him to Carter/tmac/AI etc and saying he is a fringe top 10 player really need to evaluate the way they compare players.

Bruno
07-25-2014, 03:54 AM
and you know WHAT Steve Nash was BETTER in his PRIME compared to kobe in his prime

in a game where defense doesn't matter, they were equals.

P&GRealist
07-25-2014, 05:05 AM
How is this thread still open?

:confused:

P&GRealist
07-25-2014, 05:07 AM
Basically all i've got from this is that a lot of people put their emotions when deciding who is the better player and a lot of you have a sad amount of hate towards this man as if the girl he allegedly raped was your sister/mother/daughter.

I understand that he may not be better than jordan or even magic but for those who are comparing him to Carter/tmac/AI etc and saying he is a fringe top 10 player really need to evaluate the way they compare players.

Shut up.

You are making way too much sense with this post.

This shall not be tolerated on PSD!

P&GRealist
07-25-2014, 05:08 AM
you know there are a few Kobe fans that turn these threads into the most ridiculously long ordeals ever, cmon.

Oh and you don't?

Well aren't you the good ole little innocent saint of this forum that the Angel Gabriel sent from above.

TheNumber37
07-25-2014, 05:15 AM
Michael Jeffrey Jordan

thenaj17
07-25-2014, 05:34 AM
he is in my top 3, but we need to put his stats into perspective. I have done this a bunch of times, and while it's absolutely not a perfect science (due to Wilt's unmatched stamina), here you go:

Average number of possessions that season per team, per game: roughly 130
Average number of possessions this past season per team, per game: 95
MPG for Wilt: 47
MPG for average star player today: 36

so you have a multipler per possession of 1.37
you have a multiplier per mpg of 1.3

So essentially, a guy like Love for instance, just using those multipliers, would average 46.4/22 under those same circumstances.

Again, there is no way to factor in how Wilt could play 47 mpg at that pace haha, so there is that. I am just showing that per game numbers from the old days need to be put into perspective. Minimal defense during a track meet was the game back then.

Not a chance Wilt would have been able to play 47mpg now, the league has moved on dramatically

Best player in that era by a mile but above average in todays game

AIRMAR72
07-25-2014, 05:36 AM
You should be banned for trolling
Behave nicholas its the truth yes kobe is more athletic and blah blah plus 5rings but Steve Nash made is teammate BETTER like CP3 Steve could go anywhere with the ball pull on fastbreak for a 3 and swoosh.weaving his way thru the paint dishes dimes he made his teammates BETTER we cant say about Kobe making his teammates better my advice to YOU is to get a copy of Coach Phil Jackson book and read it

thenaj17
07-25-2014, 05:49 AM
Would you rather have the most aesthetically pleasing game, or the one that would be most likely to win you the game?

Kobe gives you both.

Lol come on dude, i know some of the nuthuggers are ridiculous but no matter how much you mimic them, they still won't realise your sarcasm so they're not going to stop.

P&GRealist
07-25-2014, 05:50 AM
Behave nicholas its the truth yes kobe is more athletic and blah blah plus 5rings but Steve Nash made is teammate BETTER like CP3 Steve could go anywhere with the ball pull on fastbreak for a 3 and swoosh.weaving his way thru the paint dishes dimes he made his teammates BETTER we cant say about Kobe making his teammates better my advice to YOU is to get a copy of Coach Phil Jackson book and read it
And yet, both CP3 and Nash are ringless. Hell neither has even reached the finals. Hell CP3 hasn't even got past the 2nd round. So much for 'making your teammates better' during the regular season and handicapping and feeding them and spoiling them with a golden spoon to the point that they those teammates have no responsibilities and accountability so that when the halfcourt grinding style of basketball comes in April and May, those teammate don't know how to respond to adversity when the going gets tough.

P&GRealist
07-25-2014, 05:56 AM
And then you have Kobe, who may not be that ra ra cheering, share the ball type of guy, but he leads by example and holds his teammates accountable so that when the playoffs roll around, his teams (championship caliber or not) actually overachieve. Just look at the 06 and 07 squads. In 06 they took that Nash led Suns to 7 games. That 07 team had no business being in the playoffs yet Kobe still got them there. That lockout shortened 2012 season with Mike Brown, they got to the freakin second round and this was with most of the championship guys Odom, Fisher, Shannon, Walton all gone and only holdovers being Kobe, and out of place Gasol playing 3rd fiddle to a temperamental Bynum, and a crazy suspended MWP. And that team under the offensive ****** Mike Brown still managed to get to the 2nd round and lost in 5 to the eventual WC champ OKC Thunder (who still had Harden at the time as the 3rd wheel).


Point being that Kobe's teams have actually OVERACHIEVED in the postseason compared to 'I make my teammates better cliche crap guys' Nash and CP3.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-25-2014, 05:58 AM
nash has two Mvps and never dominated. Nice argument buddyand you know WHAT Steve Nash was BETTER in his PRIME compared to kobe in his prime

:laugh: oh man, please don't add yourself to my sig.

P&GRealist
07-25-2014, 06:18 AM
It's a shame how Steve Nash is being celebrated for being able to play just 1 side of the ball over a guy who was consistently balling both sides of the ball from the get-go.

thenaj17
07-25-2014, 06:21 AM
I'm a huge Jordan and Kobe fan, and I'm sorry Kobe is not on Jordans level. Kobe's game mimics Jordans and he is the closest to him. With that being said. Kobe is less athletic, creative, efficient, not as good defensively, fadeaway isnt as good, finishing at the rim is not as good, mid range not as good, and he is worse teammate. The only thing Kobe hasd over Jordan is 3 point shooting, ball handeling, streakiness, and loyalty.

Jordan was better than Kobe but these 2 statements are completely false. Phil Jackson always backed up that Kobe had much better range than Jordan and says so in his 2nd autobiography (great read btw, i'd recommend to those who haven't)

As for the worse teammate, Jordan used to absolutely slate his teammates the same way Kobe has in the past. He also shunned people completely if he didn't rate them. A ton of people who have played with Kobe have also said how great a teammate he was, same as Jordan's have.

The only 2 players who have slated Kobe as a teammate have been Shaq & Smush Parker.

Shaq instigated everything by slating Kobe in the media in the 1st place. Granted Kobe shouldn't have retaliated by doing the same thing but he was being belittled by Shaq and actually went to Phil to say he's had it with Shaq and isn't taking it anymore. Sounds all soap opera rubbish but again this is in Phil's autobiography (1st i think).

Smush Parker, who Kobe treated awfully and i'm not defending that. Accolades or not, Smush didn't deserve to be ignored.

A ton of other players have loved playing with Kobe. Pau, Metta, Matt Barnes, Derek Fisher, Horry, Fox and even Kwame Brown said it despite Kobe chewing him up with the ''of course i'm shooting 25 times a game, who else am i going to pass to, Kwame Brown??''

AIRMAR72
07-25-2014, 06:26 AM
And yet, both CP3 and Nash are ringless. Hell neither has even reached the finals. Hell CP3 hasn't even got past the 2nd round. So much for 'making your teammates better' during the regular season and handicapping and feeding them and spoiling them with a golden spoon to the point that they those teammates have no responsibilities and accountability so that when the halfcourt grinding style of basketball comes in April and May, those teammate don't know how to respond to adversity when the going gets tough.that is true but the reality is this both guys(steve N chris) NEVER played for large market TEAM in their early NBA career unlike kobe who started his career with studs at all POSITIONS even tho kobe rode the bench for 3yrs and management had to trade Eddie Jones so kobe can get a chance to play management maintain studs around kobe that is not the case for steve and chris. kobe 08MVP actually should have went to chris nash has 2MVP and just to remind you it stands for Most Valuable Player in the NBA your boy kobe has 1which was gift from stern and it took kobe 15yrs why is that cause he NEVER dominated the league like lebron and others

P&GRealist
07-25-2014, 06:45 AM
that is true but the reality is this both guys(steve N chris) NEVER played for large market TEAM in their early NBA career unlike kobe who started his career with studs at all POSITIONS even tho kobe rode the bench for 3yrs and management had to trade Eddie Jones so kobe can get a chance to play management maintain studs around kobe that is not the case for steve and chris. kobe 08MVP actually should have went to chris nash has 2MVP and just to remind you it stands for Most Valuable Player in the NBA your boy kobe has 1which was gift from stern and it took kobe 15yrs why is that cause he NEVER dominated the league like lebron and others

Small market large market argument is invalid as CP3 has been in LA the last 3 yrs and has vastly underachieved in each of those last 3 yrs.

Where is LeBron coming into this argument. You're now going off a completely different tangent.

And how did it take Kobe 15 yrs to get MVP, if he got the MVP in yr 12?

And is it really yr 12 if first 8 yrs were with Shaq (u know. Cuz it was all Shaq for those 3 titles right?)


So technically Kobe got MVP in his 4th yr as the man. That's pretty damn good.



CP3 should have got MVP? That's a coulda woulda shoulda cliche crap thing right there. Nash shouldn't have won in 05, could have easily been Shaq that yr turning that Heat team into a contender his first yr there.


You should have ended your post with those first 3 words.

THAT IS TRUE


And should have put a period after that. Everything else you posted was either inaccurate or irrelevant.

PhillyFaninLA
07-25-2014, 07:07 AM
What I'm about to say is not baiting, trolling, or anything else. I am going to ask a real question, because I know my opinion and objectivity has been hurt by the following question. What are your thoughts?

If the Colorado incident never happened, when the Lakers where bad had he shut is mouth and not tried to get himself traded, and if he never got Shaq pushed out would the haters have a different opinion and look at his entire body of work differently?

PhillyFaninLA
07-25-2014, 07:07 AM
Because his numbers don't compute when placed in the Matrix.....


Neither do Keanue Reeves

PhillyFaninLA
07-25-2014, 07:11 AM
One more thing, I don't think anyone will ever properly evaluate a player until they've been retired for a while. When Kobe is retired for 5 years or so, I think where he historically stands will really be cemented then. I think that goes for any player in any sport.

JasonJohnHorn
07-25-2014, 07:36 AM
Guys I would rather build a franchise around (aka; guys I think are better TEAM players and better for the TEAM and therefore are better than Kobe because this is not an individual game):

Hakeem
Robinson
Shaq
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
Kevin Ganrett
Tim Duncan
Larry Bird
LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Oscar Robertson
John Stockton
Chris Paul



I am not trolling. You give me any one of those players at the age of 21 to start a franchise with, and I would rather start my team with ANY of those players over Kobe at the same age. There are a few others, like Moses Malone, Paul Gasol, Dirk Nowitzki, a healthy Webber would easily rank above Kobe in my books, Kevin McHale, Jason Kidd, Isiah Thomas, Steve Nash, and Dr. J. who I would also consider over Kobe.


Kobe is one of those franchise player/all-time greats who was EXTREMELY lucky to be drafted by a team that was already a contender (three all-stars on the team; Shaq, Jones, Van Exel). Jordan got drafted by a $#!T lottery team that had never won. And even though Kobe was in a position to win IMMEDIATELY, and even though he's played more seasons, Jordan is still ahead on his ring count, despite the fact it took him SEVEN seasons to win his first title, and despite the fact that he only had a 6-season window in which to win given that he took two years off and that he returned to play for another lottery team in Washington.

In six season of playing on a legit contender, Jordan managed to win more titles than Kobe did in his entire career, spanning 20 seasons, though in fairness to Kobe, he was only on a contender in 13 of those seasons, and was only starting in 11 of those seasons.

Still... Kobe has less than a .500 percentage at winning when on a contender; Jordan has 1.000

In context, Kobe's ring count is kind of pathetic next to Jordan's.



And as for those who say "the officials helped Jordan". YES! THEY DID! A LOT! I watched it, and it was frustrating, especially as a Detroit fan who wanted to see him lose, but I have NEVER seen a guy get as many calls as Kobe, especially in the Kobe/Shaq run. It was the most disgusting lopsided officiating I have ever seen, so please, Kobe fans, don't waste your time trying to point out when some other player gets friendly calls because Kobe would likely only have three rings or even two without a significant amount of help form officials. (side note: surprisingly enough the two titles I don't think Kobe needed officials for were the Gasol titles; I think had officials been straight with LAL, Portland would have beat them in 2000, the Kinds would have beat them in 2002; the 2001 run was impressive though, but that was all Shaq tearing everybody apart).

And let's stop pretending like Kobe was amazing on both sides of the ball. He's been a decent defender, but I've seen guys like Reggie Miller scorer well above their season average at a higher percentage in a 7-game series when being guarded by Kobe.... Kobe as an 'elite' defender is a myth, and I don't care about his All-Defensive team totals; that is a popularity contest. Kobe is good on defense, but Tony Allen is a better defensive guard than Kobe.

slashsnake
07-25-2014, 08:06 AM
What I'm about to say is not baiting, trolling, or anything else. I am going to ask a real question, because I know my opinion and objectivity has been hurt by the following question. What are your thoughts?

If the Colorado incident never happened, when the Lakers where bad had he shut is mouth and not tried to get himself traded, and if he never got Shaq pushed out would the haters have a different opinion and look at his entire body of work differently?

I am sure that is part of it. Same went for Kareem who didn't have the best off- court persona. Or very up and down.

But as for why he won't be the goat... Others did it better. You could send a couple guys to the basketball hall of fame for doing the things that Jordan did that Kobe didn't. I think to argue goat, you have to argue either the best at what you did, or the one to first take that to a new level. Kobe doesn't really fit the bill on either.

I am sure some don't like him for the off court things, but I think overall most impartial people consider him a top 5-15 guy depending on how you weigh the position and historical players, and I think that fits.

YAALREADYKNO
07-25-2014, 08:26 AM
damn the hate for kobe here is real lmao its ridiculous how some of you guys can say yall would take steve nash in his prime over kobe or cp3 or even durant. What has those dudes even accomplished to get in the same sentence as kobe. We all know kobe isn't the greatest basketball player because that would be jordan, BUT that doesn't mean you go and say something as dumb as "Steve Nash and cp3 in their primes are better than kobe" lol

Munkeysuit
07-25-2014, 08:45 AM
First and foremost I am not trolling here but simply wanting to get a a better understanding from some of the posters here who actually are basketball 'experts'.

I dont really post here often but i do read a lot of the forum questions and replies you guys post.

I started watching the NBA in 2002 and IMO Kobe has been the best player I've ever seen and I base that off his footwork, his athleticism, total offensive arsenal and his sheer willingness to win at all costs (which I think a lot of you guys take for granted).

Theres a lot of hate on this man and I dont understand why people do not consider him to be the greatest to play the game? Is it because Michael was such a god during his time and his name as well as influence worldwide makes him untouchable? Or is there actually something that MJ can do/did that Kobe can never accomplish?

I dont think i can ever consider the Lebron to be the GOAT and not because of the idea that he is 'mentally weak' or 'unloyal' the man is a beast but I put him in the tier with Bird/Kareem/Olajuwon.

To me there are only 3 people that i see mentioning as the possible candidates to be the greatest and those are Kobe-MJ-Magic.

So to keep this short: Why cant Kobe be the Greatest?


You asking this question to begin with pretty much sums it up, to be considered the greatest of all time at anything wouldn't require second guessing, it definitely wouldn't require these forums to validate that notion either. Some will say because Kobe fails in comparison to MJ in regards to the influence MJ's had over a generation of people worldwide, which Kobe fails to even be mentioned in the same breath in that regard.
Others would say Kobe trying to be "like Mike" already says it all! how can you become the greatest when your entire game mimics someone else's? so I guess you could say, Kobe wasn't innovating and original enough to capture the world with a style that we've never seen.
Some would also say that 3 of his 5 rings were "hand delivered" to him via Shaquille Oneal! and so the years after Shaq left the Lakers, it took Kobe 6 years to get another title and it only came when Pau Gasol showed up...now you can say Kobe's accolades and achievements outside of the first 3 peat, earned him 2 rings and an MVP award and that should be enough to consider him as G.O.A.T. , but some would say Nash won 2 MVP's and Lebron has 2 rings himself, so would those accolades put them in consideration as well? would Robert Horry's 7 rings put him in there too?
Kobe is a great player, definitely one of the greatest of all time, no doubt in my mind! but THE greatest? greater than any and all players past and current? there is no way in hell! he's definitely top 11-12 and that's even pushing it! but there is absolutely no argument ANYONE ANYWHERE can say that validates Kobe is the greatest of all time...now if it were your personal opinion? then so be it, no one can tell you what to think, but this doesn't mean your right...it's just an opinion.

bmanjones
07-25-2014, 09:18 AM
Because he's not.