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P&GRealist
07-25-2014, 11:57 AM
Guys I would rather build a franchise around (aka; guys I think are better TEAM players and better for the TEAM and therefore are better than Kobe because this is not an individual game):

Hakeem
Robinson
Shaq
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
Kevin Ganrett
Tim Duncan
Larry Bird
LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Oscar Robertson
John Stockton
Chris Paul



I am not trolling. You give me any one of those players at the age of 21 to start a franchise with, and I would rather start my team with ANY of those players over Kobe at the same age. There are a few others, like Moses Malone, Paul Gasol, Dirk Nowitzki, a healthy Webber would easily rank above Kobe in my books, Kevin McHale, Jason Kidd, Isiah Thomas, Steve Nash, and Dr. J. who I would also consider over Kobe.


Kobe is one of those franchise player/all-time greats who was EXTREMELY lucky to be drafted by a team that was already a contender (three all-stars on the team; Shaq, Jones, Van Exel). Jordan got drafted by a $#!T lottery team that had never won. And even though Kobe was in a position to win IMMEDIATELY, and even though he's played more seasons, Jordan is still ahead on his ring count, despite the fact it took him SEVEN seasons to win his first title, and despite the fact that he only had a 6-season window in which to win given that he took two years off and that he returned to play for another lottery team in Washington.

In six season of playing on a legit contender, Jordan managed to win more titles than Kobe did in his entire career, spanning 20 seasons, though in fairness to Kobe, he was only on a contender in 13 of those seasons, and was only starting in 11 of those seasons.

Still... Kobe has less than a .500 percentage at winning when on a contender; Jordan has 1.000

In context, Kobe's ring count is kind of pathetic next to Jordan's.



And as for those who say "the officials helped Jordan". YES! THEY DID! A LOT! I watched it, and it was frustrating, especially as a Detroit fan who wanted to see him lose, but I have NEVER seen a guy get as many calls as Kobe, especially in the Kobe/Shaq run. It was the most disgusting lopsided officiating I have ever seen, so please, Kobe fans, don't waste your time trying to point out when some other player gets friendly calls because Kobe would likely only have three rings or even two without a significant amount of help form officials. (side note: surprisingly enough the two titles I don't think Kobe needed officials for were the Gasol titles; I think had officials been straight with LAL, Portland would have beat them in 2000, the Kinds would have beat them in 2002; the 2001 run was impressive though, but that was all Shaq tearing everybody apart).

And let's stop pretending like Kobe was amazing on both sides of the ball. He's been a decent defender, but I've seen guys like Reggie Miller scorer well above their season average at a higher percentage in a 7-game series when being guarded by Kobe.... Kobe as an 'elite' defender is a myth, and I don't care about his All-Defensive team totals; that is a popularity contest. Kobe is good on defense, but Tony Allen is a better defensive guard than Kobe.

What?


You just mentioned like 40 NBA players, past and present, to disprove Kobe's greatness. With the last name being mentioned is Tony freakin Allen.

P&GRealist
07-25-2014, 11:59 AM
Kobe is not the greatest, but not even top 5. He's more like top 10.

This shouldn't even be a thread.


But man, some of you guys are pure nimrods. Now you're just throwing random crap against the wall and hoping it sticks.

AIRMAR72
07-25-2014, 12:02 PM
:laugh: oh man, please don't add yourself to my sig. you got jokes

P&GRealist
07-25-2014, 12:09 PM
Again I ask, why is this thread still open? What are the moderators exactly trying to prove by keeping this open?

AIRMAR72
07-25-2014, 12:12 PM
Guys I would rather build a franchise around (aka; guys I think are better TEAM players and better for the TEAM and therefore are better than Kobe because this is not an individual game):

Hakeem
Robinson
Shaq
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
Kevin Ganrett
Tim Duncan
Larry Bird
LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Oscar Robertson
John Stockton
Chris Paul



I am not trolling. You give me any one of those players at the age of 21 to start a franchise with, and I would rather start my team with ANY of those players over Kobe at the same age. There are a few others, like Moses Malone, Paul Gasol, Dirk Nowitzki, a healthy Webber would easily rank above Kobe in my books, Kevin McHale, Jason Kidd, Isiah Thomas, Steve Nash, and Dr. J. who I would also consider over Kobe.


Kobe is one of those franchise player/all-time greats who was EXTREMELY lucky to be drafted by a team that was already a contender (three all-stars on the team; Shaq, Jones, Van Exel). Jordan got drafted by a $#!T lottery team that had never won. And even though Kobe was in a position to win IMMEDIATELY, and even though he's played more seasons, Jordan is still ahead on his ring count, despite the fact it took him SEVEN seasons to win his first title, and despite the fact that he only had a 6-season window in which to win given that he took two years off and that he returned to play for another lottery team in Washington.

In six season of playing on a legit contender, Jordan managed to win more titles than Kobe did in his entire career, spanning 20 seasons, though in fairness to Kobe, he was only on a contender in 13 of those seasons, and was only starting in 11 of those seasons.

Still... Kobe has less than a .500 percentage at winning when on a contender; Jordan has 1.000

In context, Kobe's ring count is kind of pathetic next to Jordan's.



And as for those who say "the officials helped Jordan". YES! THEY DID! A LOT! I watched it, and it was frustrating, especially as a Detroit fan who wanted to see him lose, but I have NEVER seen a guy get as many calls as Kobe, especially in the Kobe/Shaq run. It was the most disgusting lopsided officiating I have ever seen, so please, Kobe fans, don't waste your time trying to point out when some other player gets friendly calls because Kobe would likely only have three rings or even two without a significant amount of help form officials. (side note: surprisingly enough the two titles I don't think Kobe needed officials for were the Gasol titles; I think had officials been straight with LAL, Portland would have beat them in 2000, the Kinds would have beat them in 2002; the 2001 run was impressive though, but that was all Shaq tearing everybody apart).

And let's stop pretending like Kobe was amazing on both sides of the ball. He's been a decent defender, but I've seen guys like Reggie Miller scorer well above their season average at a higher percentage in a 7-game series when being guarded by Kobe.... Kobe as an 'elite' defender is a myth, and I don't care about his All-Defensive team totals; that is a popularity contest. Kobe is good on defense, but Tony Allen is a better defensive guard than Kobe.yess(marve albert voice) let the truth be told

valade16
07-25-2014, 12:31 PM
The problem is Kobe is so similar to Jordan and Jordan literally has him beat in every GOAT resume building category.

MVPs
Titles
Finals MVPs
PPG
Efficiency (WS, PER, etc.)

I mean the question should be "What makes Kobe Bryant better than MJ"?

You just find there is really nothing there. 81 points in a game. Is that 1 game enough to trump the everything else MJ has going for him?

LakersEaglesLA
07-25-2014, 12:59 PM
Guys I would rather build a franchise around (aka; guys I think are better TEAM players and ii ju ii for the TEAM and therefore are better than Kobe because this is not an individual game):

Hakeem
Robinson
Shaq
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
Kevin Ganrett
Tim Duncan
Larry Bird
LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Oscar Robertson
John Stockton
Chris Paul



I am not trolling. You give me any one of those players at the age of 21 to start a franchise with, and I would rather start my team with ANY of those players over Kobe at the same age. There are a few others, like Moses Malone, Paul Gasol, Dirk Nowitzki, a healthy Webber would easily rank above Kobe in my books, Kevin McHale, Jason Kidd, Isiah Thomas, Steve Nash, and Dr. J. who I would also consider over Kobe.


Kobe is one of those franchise player/all-time greats who was EXTREMELY lucky to be drafted by a team that was already a contender (three all-stars on the team; Shaq, Jones, Van Exel). Jordan got drafted by a $#!T lottery team that had never won. And even though Kobe was in a position to win IMMEDIATELY, and even though he's played more seasons, Jordan is still ahead on his ring count, despite the fact it took him SEVEN seasons to win his first title, and despite the fact that he only had a 6-season window in which to win given that he took two years off and that he returned to play for another lottery team in Washington.

In six season of playing on a legit contender, Jordan managed to win more titles than Kobe did in his entire career, spanning 20 seasons, though in fairness to Kobe, he was only on a contender in 13 of those seasons, and was only starting in 11 of those seasons.

Still... Kobe has less than a .500 percentage at winning when on a contender; Jordan has 1.000

In context, Kobe's ring count is kind of pathetic next to Jordan's.



And as for those who say "the officials helped Jordan". YES! THEY DID! A LOT! I watched it, and it was frustrating, especially as a Detroit fan who wanted to see him lose, but I have NEVER seen a guy get as many calls as Kobe, especially in the Kobe/Shaq run. It was the most disgusting lopsided officiating I have ever seen, so please, Kobe fans, don't waste your time trying to point out when some other player gets friendly calls because Kobe would likely only have three rings or even two without a significant amount of help form officials. (side note: surprisingly enough the two titles I don't think Kobe needed officials for were the Gasol titles; I think had officials been straight with LAL, Portland would have beat them in 2000, the Kinds would have beat them in 2002; the 2001 run was impressive though, but that was all Shaq tearing everybody apart)

And let's stop pretending like Kobe was amazing on both sides of the ball. He's been a decent defender, but I've seen guys like Reggie Miller scorer well above their season average at a higher percentage in a 7-game series when being guarded by Kobe.... Kobe as a 'elite' defender is a myth, and I don't care aut his All-Defensive team totals; that is a popularity contest. Kobe is good on defense, but Tony Allen is a better defensiv guard than Kobe.

See this is the dumb $h** that is said on psd that gets frustrating. So Jordan won when his team was contenders lol his team was contenders all those years Bird and Isiah sent his @zz home. He didnt win until all those great 80s teams got old. Name 1 great team he beat in 90s for championship, There are none. Kobe had Shaq and roll players, Kobe had Pau and roll players. Jordan had Pippen best defender all 6 times Rodman best rerrbounder Paxson and Kerr best shooters get the hell outta here Kobe had the least help. LeBron had to join a dreamteam to win 2 and lose 2. And Kobe defense was awesome thats not a myth. Did you see him lock up Westbrook just 2 yrs ago at 34 yrs old. I get it ALL the players Gms Coaches and fans are just pretending Kobe is Great... If you never played basketball because you wasn't good enough to make you high school or college team don't you think you should listen to Jordan and Magic and the current players abt how good this guy is? Just a thought

Chronz
07-25-2014, 01:00 PM
And then you have Kobe, who may not be that ra ra cheering, share the ball type of guy, but he leads by example and holds his teammates accountable so that when the playoffs roll around, his teams (championship caliber or not) actually overachieve. Just look at the 06 and 07 squads. In 06 they took that Nash led Suns to 7 games. That 07 team had no business being in the playoffs yet Kobe still got them there. That lockout shortened 2012 season with Mike Brown, they got to the freakin second round and this was with most of the championship guys Odom, Fisher, Shannon, Walton all gone and only holdovers being Kobe, and out of place Gasol playing 3rd fiddle to a temperamental Bynum, and a crazy suspended MWP. And that team under the offensive ****** Mike Brown still managed to get to the 2nd round and lost in 5 to the eventual WC champ OKC Thunder (who still had Harden at the time as the 3rd wheel).


Point being that Kobe's teams have actually OVERACHIEVED in the postseason compared to 'I make my teammates better cliche crap guys' Nash and CP3.
All so true, I remember when Kobe won 38 games from a unit that shouldn't even have won 37. The proof is in the pooding.


Lol come on dude, i know some of the nuthuggers are ridiculous but no matter how much you mimic them, they still won't realise your sarcasm so they're not going to stop.

You'll come around bro, I know its a shock but just the other day I never thought I would actually like the taste of vag juice. I came around real quick. Kobes greatness is exactly like that.

Jamiecballer
07-25-2014, 01:38 PM
And then you have Kobe, who may not be that ra ra cheering, share the ball type of guy, but he leads by example and holds his teammates accountable so that when the playoffs roll around, his teams (championship caliber or not) actually overachieve. Just look at the 06 and 07 squads. In 06 they took that Nash led Suns to 7 games. That 07 team had no business being in the playoffs yet Kobe still got them there. That lockout shortened 2012 season with Mike Brown, they got to the freakin second round and this was with most of the championship guys Odom, Fisher, Shannon, Walton all gone and only holdovers being Kobe, and out of place Gasol playing 3rd fiddle to a temperamental Bynum, and a crazy suspended MWP. And that team under the offensive ****** Mike Brown still managed to get to the 2nd round and lost in 5 to the eventual WC champ OKC Thunder (who still had Harden at the time as the 3rd wheel).


Point being that Kobe's teams have actually OVERACHIEVED in the postseason compared to 'I make my teammates better cliche crap guys' Nash and CP3.
There is some validity to some of that but I draw the line at leading by example because that's a crock of ****. The example he has set throughout his career is that its every man for himself out there. I personally prefer the guy that teaches his teammates that if they pass the ball they will get it back, that if they work hard to get open the ball will come their way, etc.

Kobe is supremely talented and might encourage his teammates to work as hard as possible off the court. But after Melo and Westbrook I can't think of a current player who I would want my players to aspire too less for their on court play.

Chronz
07-25-2014, 01:38 PM
I would love for you to provide an example of a player for who this has happened...

Not sure if he ever got back to you but it happened to Kobe.

Edit) He didn't. Hopefully he does.

Chronz
07-25-2014, 01:45 PM
And yet, both CP3 and Nash are ringless. Hell neither has even reached the finals. Hell CP3 hasn't even got past the 2nd round. So much for 'making your teammates better' during the regular season and handicapping and feeding them and spoiling them with a golden spoon to the point that they those teammates have no responsibilities and accountability so that when the halfcourt grinding style of basketball comes in April and May, those teammate don't know how to respond to adversity when the going gets tough.

LOL, BROSEPH!!! U dont have to lie about other players to prop Kobe up. Pretty sure they are ringless because they never had the team defense behind them. Citing offense as a reason for their teams failure is about as clueless as you can get. Nice try tho

Chronz
07-25-2014, 01:47 PM
:laugh: oh man, please don't add yourself to my sig.

Hey did we ever finish that conversation about why you thinking your sig is significant is so indicative of your lack of understanding of the NBA?

jerellh528
07-25-2014, 01:49 PM
Guys I would rather build a franchise around (aka; guys I think are better TEAM players and better for the TEAM and therefore are better than Kobe because this is not an individual game):

Hakeem
Robinson
Shaq
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
Kevin Ganrett
Tim Duncan
Larry Bird
LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Oscar Robertson
John Stockton
Chris Paul



I am not trolling. You give me any one of those players at the age of 21 to start a franchise with, and I would rather start my team with ANY of those players over Kobe at the same age. There are a few others, like Moses Malone, Paul Gasol, Dirk Nowitzki, a healthy Webber would easily rank above Kobe in my books, Kevin McHale, Jason Kidd, Isiah Thomas, Steve Nash, and Dr. J. who I would also consider over Kobe.


Kobe is one of those franchise player/all-time greats who was EXTREMELY lucky to be drafted by a team that was already a contender (three all-stars on the team; Shaq, Jones, Van Exel). Jordan got drafted by a $#!T lottery team that had never won. And even though Kobe was in a position to win IMMEDIATELY, and even though he's played more seasons, Jordan is still ahead on his ring count, despite the fact it took him SEVEN seasons to win his first title, and despite the fact that he only had a 6-season window in which to win given that he took two years off and that he returned to play for another lottery team in Washington.

In six season of playing on a legit contender, Jordan managed to win more titles than Kobe did in his entire career, spanning 20 seasons, though in fairness to Kobe, he was only on a contender in 13 of those seasons, and was only starting in 11 of those seasons.

Still... Kobe has less than a .500 percentage at winning when on a contender; Jordan has 1.000

In context, Kobe's ring count is kind of pathetic next to Jordan's.



And as for those who say "the officials helped Jordan". YES! THEY DID! A LOT! I watched it, and it was frustrating, especially as a Detroit fan who wanted to see him lose, but I have NEVER seen a guy get as many calls as Kobe, especially in the Kobe/Shaq run. It was the most disgusting lopsided officiating I have ever seen, so please, Kobe fans, don't waste your time trying to point out when some other player gets friendly calls because Kobe would likely only have three rings or even two without a significant amount of help form officials. (side note: surprisingly enough the two titles I don't think Kobe needed officials for were the Gasol titles; I think had officials been straight with LAL, Portland would have beat them in 2000, the Kinds would have beat them in 2002; the 2001 run was impressive though, but that was all Shaq tearing everybody apart).

And let's stop pretending like Kobe was amazing on both sides of the ball. He's been a decent defender, but I've seen guys like Reggie Miller scorer well above their season average at a higher percentage in a 7-game series when being guarded by Kobe.... Kobe as an 'elite' defender is a myth, and I don't care about his All-Defensive team totals; that is a popularity contest. Kobe is good on defense, but Tony Allen is a better defensive guard than Kobe.

If you have to disclose you're not trolling in your opening paragraph..youre trollin

slashsnake
07-25-2014, 01:50 PM
See this is the dumb $h** that is said on psd that gets frustrating. So Jordan won when his team was contenders lol his team was contenders all those years Bird and Isiah sent his @zz home. He didnt win until all those great 80s teams got old. Name 1 great team he beat in 90s for championship, There are none. Kobe had Shaq and roll players, Kobe had Pau and roll players. Jordan had Pippen best defender all 6 times Rodman best rerrbounder Paxson and Kerr best shooters get the hell outta here Kobe had the least help. LeBron had to join a dreamteam to win 2 and lose 2. And Kobe defense was awesome thats not a myth. Did you see him lock up Westbrook just 2 yrs ago at 34 yrs old. I get it ALL the players Gms Coaches and fans are just pretending Kobe is Great... If you never played basketball because you wasn't good enough to make you high school or college team don't you think you should listen to Jordan and Magic and the current players abt how good this guy is? Just a thought

Ummm Lakers were very dominant when he beat them for that ring. Magic was a back to back MVP who was 2nd in voting that season (lost to Jordan) and they rolled through the western conference. They weren't old. Magic was 31, Scott, Green, Divac, and Worthy were all in their 20's.

Yeah, his team didn't get strong until the decline of the Celtics and Pistons. He'd score 30 and grab 7 boards and 7 assists, and be the best player of the series against Detroit even with their utter focus on him. But when Craig Hodges or Sam Vincent is your #2 offensive guy and the Pistons have the next 5 best players in the series, you aren't winning. Same thing vs. the Celtics. Jordan had Oakley. Then one other guy who could score in double digits. Bird had 4 other guys averaging 17 or more a game that series. Think of that. A team that had 5 guys scoring 17 or more a game on an average of 54% shooting. three who were double double guys, and another who was a 20 and 8 assist guy. He ran into a team with 5 hall of famers. Scoring 44 a game wasn't even good enough there. I would have loved to see prime Jordan/bulls vs. that team. But you didn't.

The Jazz were dominant, regularly winning 60+ games and had two of the best ever to play their respective positions.

Same with the Sonics and Suns.. These were 62+ win teams. Only reason they aren't "great" is the bulls beat them in the finals.

In the East you had Riley's Knicks averaging 56 wins a year. Nearly the same pace as the Heat have averaged the past 4 years. Difference. Heat got to the finals. Knicks kept running into the Bulls when they were in their prime.

These were teams that had MVP's on them. Teams that routinely were winning 60+ games. Teams with records similar to the Spurs of the past decade or Kobe/Shaq Lakers. The reason they weren't great, was they didn't last together and at their best they ran into the Bulls.

Lets say Lebron and Wade played out of their mind in the Finals, and SA lost that series but played equally well as they just did. Are they no longer a great team? Just an old team that couldn't do it anymore? In 20 years that would have been the argument.

JLynn943
07-25-2014, 01:52 PM
Maybe the GOAT at taking and making terrible shots, which is something I guess

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-25-2014, 02:39 PM
Guys I would rather build a franchise around (aka; guys I think are better TEAM players and better for the TEAM and therefore are better than Kobe because this is not an individual game):

Hakeem
Robinson
Shaq
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
Kevin Ganrett
Tim Duncan
Larry Bird
LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Oscar Robertson
John Stockton
Chris Paul



I am not trolling. You give me any one of those players at the age of 21 to start a franchise with, and I would rather start my team with ANY of those players over Kobe at the same age. There are a few others, like Moses Malone, Paul Gasol, Dirk Nowitzki, a healthy Webber would easily rank above Kobe in my books, Kevin McHale, Jason Kidd, Isiah Thomas, Steve Nash, and Dr. J. who I would also consider over Kobe.


Kobe is one of those franchise player/all-time greats who was EXTREMELY lucky to be drafted by a team that was already a contender (three all-stars on the team; Shaq, Jones, Van Exel). Jordan got drafted by a $#!T lottery team that had never won. And even though Kobe was in a position to win IMMEDIATELY, and even though he's played more seasons, Jordan is still ahead on his ring count, despite the fact it took him SEVEN seasons to win his first title, and despite the fact that he only had a 6-season window in which to win given that he took two years off and that he returned to play for another lottery team in Washington.

In six season of playing on a legit contender, Jordan managed to win more titles than Kobe did in his entire career, spanning 20 seasons, though in fairness to Kobe, he was only on a contender in 13 of those seasons, and was only starting in 11 of those seasons.

Still... Kobe has less than a .500 percentage at winning when on a contender; Jordan has 1.000

In context, Kobe's ring count is kind of pathetic next to Jordan's.



And as for those who say "the officials helped Jordan". YES! THEY DID! A LOT! I watched it, and it was frustrating, especially as a Detroit fan who wanted to see him lose, but I have NEVER seen a guy get as many calls as Kobe, especially in the Kobe/Shaq run. It was the most disgusting lopsided officiating I have ever seen, so please, Kobe fans, don't waste your time trying to point out when some other player gets friendly calls because Kobe would likely only have three rings or even two without a significant amount of help form officials. (side note: surprisingly enough the two titles I don't think Kobe needed officials for were the Gasol titles; I think had officials been straight with LAL, Portland would have beat them in 2000, the Kinds would have beat them in 2002; the 2001 run was impressive though, but that was all Shaq tearing everybody apart).

And let's stop pretending like Kobe was amazing on both sides of the ball. He's been a decent defender, but I've seen guys like Reggie Miller scorer well above their season average at a higher percentage in a 7-game series when being guarded by Kobe.... Kobe as an 'elite' defender is a myth, and I don't care about his All-Defensive team totals; that is a popularity contest. Kobe is good on defense, but Tony Allen is a better defensive guard than Kobe.


That was honestly one of the worst post I've read in a long time. Thanks for the laugh tho

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-25-2014, 02:40 PM
:laugh: oh man, please don't add yourself to my sig.

Hey did we ever finish that conversation about why you thinking your sig is significant is so indicative of your lack of understanding of the NBA?

Ill pm you or bring back the old thread when I have time

ChicagoFan4Eva
07-25-2014, 02:54 PM
Michael
****ing
Jordan

P&GRealist
07-25-2014, 03:37 PM
LOL, BROSEPH!!! U dont have to lie about other players to prop Kobe up. Pretty sure they are ringless because they never had the team defense behind them. Citing offense as a reason for their teams failure is about as clueless as you can get. Nice try tho

Didn't CP3 have tough defensive bullies in West and Tyson. And then he had Okafor. And now he has DeAndre and a physical dude in Griffin ? :confused:

P&GRealist
07-25-2014, 03:57 PM
Michael
****ing
Jordan

Who?

bucketss
07-25-2014, 03:59 PM
18 pages means hes atleast in the discussion right?

YAALREADYKNO
07-25-2014, 04:16 PM
Guys I would rather build a franchise around (aka; guys I think are better TEAM players and better for the TEAM and therefore are better than Kobe because this is not an individual game):

Hakeem
Robinson
Shaq
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
Kevin Ganrett
Tim Duncan
Larry Bird
LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Oscar Robertson
John Stockton
Chris Paul



I am not trolling. You give me any one of those players at the age of 21 to start a franchise with, and I would rather start my team with ANY of those players over Kobe at the same age. There are a few others, like Moses Malone, Paul Gasol, Dirk Nowitzki, a healthy Webber would easily rank above Kobe in my books, Kevin McHale, Jason Kidd, Isiah Thomas, Steve Nash, and Dr. J. who I would also consider over Kobe.


Kobe is one of those franchise player/all-time greats who was EXTREMELY lucky to be drafted by a team that was already a contender (three all-stars on the team; Shaq, Jones, Van Exel). Jordan got drafted by a $#!T lottery team that had never won. And even though Kobe was in a position to win IMMEDIATELY, and even though he's played more seasons, Jordan is still ahead on his ring count, despite the fact it took him SEVEN seasons to win his first title, and despite the fact that he only had a 6-season window in which to win given that he took two years off and that he returned to play for another lottery team in Washington.

In six season of playing on a legit contender, Jordan managed to win more titles than Kobe did in his entire career, spanning 20 seasons, though in fairness to Kobe, he was only on a contender in 13 of those seasons, and was only starting in 11 of those seasons.

Still... Kobe has less than a .500 percentage at winning when on a contender; Jordan has 1.000

In context, Kobe's ring count is kind of pathetic next to Jordan's.



And as for those who say "the officials helped Jordan". YES! THEY DID! A LOT! I watched it, and it was frustrating, especially as a Detroit fan who wanted to see him lose, but I have NEVER seen a guy get as many calls as Kobe, especially in the Kobe/Shaq run. It was the most disgusting lopsided officiating I have ever seen, so please, Kobe fans, don't waste your time trying to point out when some other player gets friendly calls because Kobe would likely only have three rings or even two without a significant amount of help form officials. (side note: surprisingly enough the two titles I don't think Kobe needed officials for were the Gasol titles; I think had officials been straight with LAL, Portland would have beat them in 2000, the Kinds would have beat them in 2002; the 2001 run was impressive though, but that was all Shaq tearing everybody apart).

And let's stop pretending like Kobe was amazing on both sides of the ball. He's been a decent defender, but I've seen guys like Reggie Miller scorer well above their season average at a higher percentage in a 7-game series when being guarded by Kobe.... Kobe as an 'elite' defender is a myth, and I don't care about his All-Defensive team totals; that is a popularity contest. Kobe is good on defense, but Tony Allen is a better defensive guard than Kobe.


CP3 nash and durant over KOBE??? smh you must really just hate kobe lol

TheIlladelph16
07-25-2014, 04:31 PM
18 pages means hes atleast in the discussion right?

Pshhhhh mine's only 7 pages long. Get on my level.

Also to OP: He can't be considered the GOAT because there's anywhere from 5-10 players better than him in the history of basketball. /thread

slashsnake
07-25-2014, 04:35 PM
18 pages means hes atleast in the discussion right?

Nah, most of it is what level he does fall on, none of it really backing up the discussion he is the goat.

IKnowHoops
07-25-2014, 05:37 PM
18 pages means hes atleast in the discussion right?

Its starting to get funnier

Hawkeye15
07-25-2014, 05:41 PM
I am not in the extreme category, I'm a person who played high school and college basketball so I look at the game from a players perspective. And from most players perspective Kobe is top 5 all day long

I played, my brother played, neither of us think he is top 5.

So? You are being very biased towards Kobe. And if you are into basketball like you say you are, why haven't you embraced the analytics of the game? Are you going to be one of those dinasours that puts his foot down that no other point of view except from an ex-player or coach matters?

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-25-2014, 06:10 PM
I am not in the extreme category, I'm a person who played high school and college basketball so I look at the game from a players perspective. And from most players perspective Kobe is top 5 all day long

I played, my brother played, neither of us think he is top 5.

So? You are being very biased towards Kobe. And if you are into basketball like you say you are, why haven't you embraced the analytics of the game? Are you going to be one of those dinasours that puts his foot down that no other point of view except from an ex-player or coach matters?we get it hawk. Kobe is the devil to you. Unfortunately for you, everyone who matters in the basketball world has Kobe in the top 7 or so.

Jamiecballer
07-25-2014, 07:19 PM
The short answer to the OP:

Michael Jordan was like Kobe on steroids. If you thought Kobe was good Michael would have blown your mind.

Hawkeye15
07-25-2014, 08:57 PM
we get it hawk. Kobe is the devil to you. Unfortunately for you, everyone who matters in the basketball world has Kobe in the top 7 or so.

Meh, some of us can judge a player subjectively, and not with huge goggles on.

Who is everyone btw? Have you ever backed up an opinion in your PSD career?

P&GRealist
07-25-2014, 09:19 PM
All so true, I remember when Kobe won 38 games from a unit that shouldn't even have won 37. The proof is in the pooding.



Oh ya. When Kobe missed 16 games. Same with Caron Butler. Pothead Lamar Odom pre-Phil Jackson, Brian Grant injuries. Vlade Divac herniated disc sending him to fill out his AARP papers. Tierre Brown, Chucky Atkins, Jumaine Jones, Chris Mihm, Luke Walton, Sasha Vujacic, Brian Cook, Kareem Rush, Slava Medvedenko.

Rudy T steps down cuz he couldn't handle it. System changes totally mid season and the Lakers make Frank Hamlen, Phil's primary triangle left over dude from the previous yr as the interim. Total opposite and defying the purpose of letting Phil go in the first place as Kobe didn't take a full liking to the triangle (especially when Shaq was the focal point).

How did that roster even manage to hit 30 wins.

WadeKobe
07-25-2014, 09:30 PM
I find it funny tha the stans keep saying its because people hate him and because of the media/Colorado incident.

I couldnt care two ***** about any of that. The reality is that these stans don't understand the analytical movement and neither do most other posters. That's why we just see PER and WS thrown out over and over and over again. By those aren't the only available composite stats. There is a wealth of them and, at this point, they all largely agree with little disagreement.

Kobe simply wasn't as good as you guys say he was. He was a very good players whose peak lasted an unbelievably, legendarily long time.

But it isn't just PER and WS. All of the different adjusted +\- varieties agree for the current era, as do those for which we have historical data. So do the box-score value composite stats (wins models).

If you don't like that, fine. But if it's just one stat, I get the ignoring it. When it's a couple, I understand skepticism. When it's all of them, which it is at this point, it begins to take on a depth of value and meaning.

I have seen not one single Kobe fan who thinks he is top5 all time deal with that reality, or argue critically against it. They just ignore, ignore, ignore and throw out baseless, unsupported statements other than "player so and so says...."

Players continually go on to become GMs and display their lack of ability to evaluate player value, and take years to adjust.

Jamiecballer
07-25-2014, 10:09 PM
I find it funny tha the stans keep saying its because people hate him and because of the media/Colorado incident.

I couldnt care two ***** about any of that. The reality is that these stans don't understand the analytical movement and neither do most other posters. That's why we just see PER and WS thrown out over and over and over again. By those aren't the only available composite stats. There is a wealth of them and, at this point, they all largely agree with little disagreement.

Kobe simply wasn't as good as you guys say he was. He was a very good players whose peak lasted an unbelievably, legendarily long time.

But it isn't just PER and WS. All of the different adjusted +\- varieties agree for the current era, as do those for which we have historical data. So do the box-score value composite stats (wins models).

If you don't like that, fine. But if it's just one stat, I get the ignoring it. When it's a couple, I understand skepticism. When it's all of them, which it is at this point, it begins to take on a depth of value and meaning.

I have seen not one single Kobe fan who thinks he is top5 all time deal with that reality, or argue critically against it. They just ignore, ignore, ignore and throw out baseless, unsupported statements other than "player so and so says...."

Players continually go on to become GMs and display their lack of ability to evaluate player value, and take years to adjust.
+5000. The most childish term thrown around here is hater. There is no reason on earth any of us should hate a professional basketball player. Its clear from the numbers that he just doesn't belong in the same stratosphere as Jordan and James and some people, the majority being laker fans, find that very tough to hear.

Great, great player but not once in a lifetime like the Jordan, James and O'Neal's of the world.

P&GRealist
07-25-2014, 10:11 PM
I think Kobe is top 8 at best. Top 12 at worst.

See, I ended the debate. :)

Now plz, I'm begging you.
Close this damn thread!!!

JustinTime
07-25-2014, 10:19 PM
dp

JustinTime
07-25-2014, 10:20 PM
I don't feel like reading through 19 pages but has anyone brought up the Zone-defense argument yet?

P&GRealist
07-25-2014, 10:23 PM
I don't feel like reading through 19 pages but has anyone brought up the Zone-defense argument yet?

Yes, in the previous 95 threads all time of Kobe vs MJ

WadeKobe
07-25-2014, 10:26 PM
I have Kobe between 13-17

MJ/Magic
Wilt/KAJ
Bird/Duncan
Shaq
West/Robertson
James
Dream/DRob
KG/Barkley/Kobe/Karl/Moses

JasonJohnHorn
07-25-2014, 10:31 PM
CP3 nash and durant over KOBE??? smh you must really just hate kobe lol

Durant and CP3 I would take over Kobe in a heart beat. Nash I'd have to think hard about and it would depend on other pieces. If I had no pieces I'd take Kobe for sure...

It isn't a matter of hating Kobe. I'd take him over 98% of the guys who have played in the league.

Durant is better in my eyes. He is a better rebounder (which is to be expected given his size), but he is a FAR better shooter than Kobe ever was and I don't get the impressive that he plays 'hero ball' at the expense of the team. Kobe does.

Kobe is AMAZING. I have him ranked as the second best shooting guard ever, which says a lot because I LOVE Jerry West. As for other players.. I have a bias toward rebounding and interior defense. It think those to things are the easiest to build around, so I'll take most top-ten C's and many top-Ten PF's over any PG, SG or SF... it isn't anything personal.

CP3 is better than Kobe and I know very few will agree with me on that, but I've seen what he's done to turn teams around and it amazes me.

Durant.... offensively he is just more efficient, and since Kobe's biggest strength is his offense... well...

Chronz
07-25-2014, 10:41 PM
Didn't CP3 have tough defensive bullies in West and Tyson. And then he had Okafor. And now he has DeAndre and a physical dude in Griffin ? :confused:
Lmfao, do u judge defense by watching the games or by checking out their bodies?

jerellh528
07-25-2014, 10:49 PM
Lmfao, do u judge defense by watching the games or by checking out their bodies?

Niether, just by looking at http://m.bkref.com like most on here do.

P&GRealist
07-25-2014, 11:23 PM
I have Kobe between 13-17

MJ/Magic
Wilt/KAJ
Bird/Duncan
Shaq
West/Robertson
James
Dream/DRob
KG/Barkley/Kobe/Karl/Moses

Did you just put Kobe in the same category as 2 guys with 1 titles and 2 other ringless guys?


Interesting.

P&GRealist
07-25-2014, 11:25 PM
Lmfao, do u judge defense by watching the games or by checking out their bodies?

Oh I'm sorry.

I thought all the guys I listed were impactful players. But if you think CP3 has been playing with a scrub front court his entire career, then alright.


Maybe he needs MORE HELP at the 4/5 then?

Chronz
07-26-2014, 02:02 AM
Niether, just by looking at http://m.bkref.com like most on here do.

That would actually be a step up, but I suggest moving beyond the mobile version of that site. At the least.

Chronz
07-26-2014, 02:08 AM
Oh I'm sorry.

I thought all the guys I listed were impactful players.
LMFAO. We're talking about a teams defense and you went on to label guys who were liabilities? LMFAO.


But if you think CP3 has been playing with a scrub front court his entire career, then alright.
You really have to resort to strawman arguments so early? Ur doing ur predecessors a disservice by quitting so early. Stick to what I originally said plz


Maybe he needs MORE HELP at the 4/5 then?
Nope. Just what every other superstar has had.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-26-2014, 02:37 AM
I have Kobe between 13-17

MJ/Magic
Wilt/KAJ
Bird/Duncan
Shaq
West/Robertson
James
Dream/DRob
KG/Barkley/Kobe/Karl/Moses

Most 15 year olds do, congrats

SILVER SEAVER
07-26-2014, 02:38 AM
He would be the GOAT.......if there was no Michael Jordan. For as strong as Kobe's will is, Jordan's was stronger. When he reached the top the only things that stopped him were retirement the first time and being rusty in '95 when he made his comeback against Orlando. Outside of those two things not even food poisoning in Utah could derail this guy from accomplishing his goal.

SILVER SEAVER
07-26-2014, 02:41 AM
When you think about it Kobe isn't even the greatest Laker of all-time so how could he be the GOAT. Magic will go down as the greatest Laker followed by Kobe and Jerry West. Shaq and Kareem can't count because they both didn't begin as a Laker and in Shaq's case didn't last long as a Laker.

P&GRealist
07-26-2014, 02:42 AM
He would be the GOAT.......if there was no Michael Jordan. For as strong as Kobe's will is, Jordan's was stronger. When he reached the top the only things that stopped him were retirement the first time and being rusty in '95 when he made his comeback against Orlando. Outside of those two things not even food poisoning in Utah could derail this guy from accomplishing his goal.

Actually, what stopped MJ was the gambling scandals, which as a result led to his 'retirement' and subsequent Stellar minor league career.

Chronz
07-26-2014, 02:49 AM
Actually, what stopped MJ was the gambling scandals, which as a result led to his 'retirement' and subsequent Stellar minor league career.

Why havent you mentioned space jam yet?

SILVER SEAVER
07-26-2014, 02:55 AM
Actually, what stopped MJ was the gambling scandals, which as a result led to his 'retirement' and subsequent Stellar minor league career.

Yeah I know that was the reason. Stern didn't want to be the commish to suspend the greatest player in the world so they called it a retirement, got ya but outside of his "retirement" wink wink and rust he dominated when he hit 28.

SILVER SEAVER
07-26-2014, 02:58 AM
Space Jam and minor league ball was plenty to kill time during a year and a half long suspension.

sammyvine
07-26-2014, 06:49 AM
because he isn't the GOAT simple as

i don't see why people are having these long discussions. All time great he is but not close to the GOAT

tredigs
07-26-2014, 08:48 AM
Has he ever had a season better than Jordan's top 5? No? Okay. Then he's in the mix for the 2nd best shooting guard at best, and nowhere near the GOAT. This is not hard - - moving on.

Jamiecballer
07-26-2014, 09:23 AM
Most 15 year olds do, congrats
That makes sense. Kids would appreciate players that played long before they were born while older fans would rank players like Kobe with little understanding of his place in history. Well done.

slashsnake
07-26-2014, 09:39 AM
Yeah I know that was the reason. Stern didn't want to be the commish to suspend the greatest player in the world so they called it a retirement, got ya but outside of his "retirement" wink wink and rust he dominated when he hit 28.


I am always tough to sell on these conspiracy theories, because when you are dealing with circumstantial evidence, I want something that really passes the smell test to buy in to.

And here, the actions just all seem really fishy to buy the secret supsension. The motive doesn't make sense, the risks don't make sense, the reward doesn't make sense really.

So the NBA has a gambling problem. Multiple players are doing it. So in order to put a stop to it, rather than publicly fine or give a 10 day suspension publicly for it, they give Jordan an arbitrary 147 game suspension, and keep it secret from the rest of the NBA, so that the other players gambling have no idea that this is something the league will punish players harshly for.

First, a short suspension or big fine would make a LOT more sense than going nuclear from the get go. The worst business decision (and remember the NBA is about money first) is to send the guy who is by far their biggest draw away from the game. That Jordan effect story by those financial writers in the 90’s figured his impact to the league was 10 BILLION dollars. Why send that away, and risk that Jordan would enjoy his quasi retirement, stay burnt out, decide to spend more time with his family after his fathers death, or play well at baseball and still be upset at the NBA enough to not come back? Sounds like the most awful business decision you could make there to me. And what do you get from it?

Then he goes and does what? He GAMBLES. He gambles with NBA players and stars even while he is away. And the NBA’s response to that is to reinstate him? It would be like suspending a guy for drug abuse, and his response would be to go on tour with Snoop Dog, smoke on stage every night, and you reinstate him because he learned his lesson.

And what does the league do when he returns? They put the Bulls pre-season in Las Vegas, so Jordan and Rodman can go gamble. That to me is the killer right there. IF they are against Jordan gambling, why then send him to Vegas with renowned gambler Rodman for his pre-season games where he can gamble?

Then, as he continues to gamble in his retirement, bringing players like Rip Hamilton and Antoine Walker among others to his tables… Stern decides that he wants to go out of his way to help Jordan become a team owner?

So the suspension isn’t to stop Jordan or other NBA players from gambling, as they continue to do so, and making it secret doesn’t prohibits the NBA from saying that players can be punished for it. You have Stackhouse fighting Laettner over gambling debts. Oakley threatening Tyrone Hill. Jordan still taking money from NBA guys. And it chooses the one punishment that pulls millions of dollars from the NBA’s pocket, and risks losing MJ for good.

Again, it seems like the only thing they did remotely right with this conspiracy theory is hide the proof.

WadeKobe
07-26-2014, 11:07 AM
That makes sense. Kids would appreciate players that played long before they were born while older fans would rank players like Kobe with little understanding of his place in history. Well done.

Lol right?

The fact that I appreciate Barkley should clue him into the fact that I actually got to watch Barkley's prime and haven't just shoved him off for "no ringzzzz".

Lo Porto
07-26-2014, 11:16 AM
There is no GOAT. This isn't hockey where there is a clear cut statistically dominant player. The NBA has the few elite and then a bunch of fantastic players after those elite.

Elite include guys like MJ, Wilt, Kareem and maybe a few others. I don't even think Kobe is in that echelon. Could he get there with three more strong years where he's the leader on a playoff team and he breaks the scoring record - maybe....

WadeKobe
07-26-2014, 12:18 PM
Did you just put Kobe in the same category as 2 guys with 1 titles and 2 other ringless guys?


Interesting.

Yes. I did. I am not sure why that is "interesting".

There are generally four categories people look at when comparing and ranking players.

Total career
Peak dominance
Team success
Championships

I weight peak dominance more than total career.
I combine team success and championships, as I view championships as a product of team.
I don't give much weight to team success.

Championships or lack thereof only factors considerably if the player was a significant reason their team beat teams they shouldn't have (Hakeem), or if their team failed to reach heights in part because of gym (Garnett played poorly in the playoffs compared to reg season and took up 45% of his team's salary cap).

A player winning 5 championships on the beast team all 5 years doesn't do a lot for them. It does some, but not much.

Peak dominance, Kobe is 17th out of the 17 players I listed.
Totaly career Kobe ranks up to about 12th or 13th
Team success Kobe is about 5th

Barkley, Garnett, and Moses easily had more dominant and productive peaks. Mailman is close, but is one of the few players who beats Kobe in terms if peak longevity and total longevity. He was productive for 20 years.

Kobe's championships don't mean much to me. Nor do anyone else's.

NYKalltheway
07-26-2014, 12:58 PM
Michael Jordan is the GOAT because of the players and teams he played against. We have a saying in Greek which pretty much means 'the value of the defeated gives glory to the winner'. It's an unwritten rule in everything in life.

Michael Jordan beat: Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal, Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Patrick Ewing, Joe Dumars, James Worthy, Gary Payton, Reggie Miller, Glen Rice, Chris Mullin, Mark Jackson, Mark Price, Dennis Rodman, Ron Harper, Buck Williams, Larry Nance, Kevin Willis, Kevin Johnson, Alonzo Mourning, Larry Johnson, Penny Hardaway, Shawn Kemp, Chris Webber
in the playoffs... while routinely outperfoming all time greats in the regular season. He played in the most stacked NBA era and was always on top.

And when in his prime, he never lost a championship[not sure how to view 1995 though]. He surely didn't win on his own and only a few have that in their resume. Someone like Hakeem Olajuwon could argue that, which is what puts him in most people's top 10.

Kobe does not belong in this group. He never will. Being an amazing player is not enough. There are so many all time greats that most people don't even know about (eg Oscar Robertson and Elgin Baylor who'd be #1 and #2 in our era if they were around). Not being the greatest or one of the few (eg 10) greatest is not an insult to these guys. Being top 30 or 50 or even 100 means you were a remarkable player.
Enough with this obsession to make Kobe (or Lebron) a god. Great players but not amongst the top guys.

Jamiecballer
07-26-2014, 01:12 PM
Yes. I did. I am not sure why that is "interesting".

There are generally four categories people look at when comparing and ranking players.

Total career
Peak dominance
Team success
Championships

I weight peak dominance more than total career.
I combine team success and championships, as I view championships as a product of team.
I don't give much weight to team success.

Championships or lack thereof only factors considerably if the player was a significant reason their team beat teams they shouldn't have (Hakeem), or if their team failed to reach heights in part because of gym (Garnett played poorly in the playoffs compared to reg season and took up 45% of his team's salary cap).

A player winning 5 championships on the beast team all 5 years doesn't do a lot for them. It does some, but not much.

Peak dominance, Kobe is 17th out of the 17 players I listed.
Totaly career Kobe ranks up to about 12th or 13th
Team success Kobe is about 5th

Barkley, Garnett, and Moses easily had more dominant and productive peaks. Mailman is close, but is one of the few players who beats Kobe in terms if peak longevity and total longevity. He was productive for 20 years.

Kobe's championships don't mean much to me. Nor do anyone else's.
We have pretty much identical criteria. I probably would put total career numbers on an even footing with peak but I basically agree.

When it comes to evaluating players championships are pretty minor for me as well. It is hard if not impossible to be objective if you've witnessed the player in question going through a championship run as a fan.

Chronz
07-26-2014, 01:36 PM
Most 15 year olds do, congrats
Can you elaborate bro?

slashsnake
07-26-2014, 01:39 PM
We have pretty much identical criteria. I probably would put total career numbers on an even footing with peak but I basically agree.

When it comes to evaluating players championships are pretty minor for me as well. It is hard if not impossible to be objective if you've witnessed the player in question going through a championship run as a fan.

I will give them a bit more love for that. Especially when you look at the situations. For example Kobe's 4th and 5th championships move him up a lot more for me than his first few. Being the leader and best player of a championship team is a pretty major accomplishment. Being a Beta Dog is as well, but not nearly as much IMO. Yeah a big part of it comes down to the team, and who you played with and against, but I'd rather move a guy up for what he accomplished than come up with reasons for why he failed to accomplish this or that, especially when talking about the GOAT.

SILVER SEAVER
07-26-2014, 02:06 PM
I am always tough to sell on these conspiracy theories, because when you are dealing with circumstantial evidence, I want something that really passes the smell test to buy in to.

And here, the actions just all seem really fishy to buy the secret supsension. The motive doesn't make sense, the risks don't make sense, the reward doesn't make sense really.

So the NBA has a gambling problem. Multiple players are doing it. So in order to put a stop to it, rather than publicly fine or give a 10 day suspension publicly for it, they give Jordan an arbitrary 147 game suspension, and keep it secret from the rest of the NBA, so that the other players gambling have no idea that this is something the league will punish players harshly for.

First, a short suspension or big fine would make a LOT more sense than going nuclear from the get go. The worst business decision (and remember the NBA is about money first) is to send the guy who is by far their biggest draw away from the game. That Jordan effect story by those financial writers in the 90’s figured his impact to the league was 10 BILLION dollars. Why send that away, and risk that Jordan would enjoy his quasi retirement, stay burnt out, decide to spend more time with his family after his fathers death, or play well at baseball and still be upset at the NBA enough to not come back? Sounds like the most awful business decision you could make there to me. And what do you get from it?

Then he goes and does what? He GAMBLES. He gambles with NBA players and stars even while he is away. And the NBA’s response to that is to reinstate him? It would be like suspending a guy for drug abuse, and his response would be to go on tour with Snoop Dog, smoke on stage every night, and you reinstate him because he learned his lesson.

And what does the league do when he returns? They put the Bulls pre-season in Las Vegas, so Jordan and Rodman can go gamble. That to me is the killer right there. IF they are against Jordan gambling, why then send him to Vegas with renowned gambler Rodman for his pre-season games where he can gamble?

Then, as he continues to gamble in his retirement, bringing players like Rip Hamilton and Antoine Walker among others to his tables… Stern decides that he wants to go out of his way to help Jordan become a team owner?

So the suspension isn’t to stop Jordan or other NBA players from gambling, as they continue to do so, and making it secret doesn’t prohibits the NBA from saying that players can be punished for it. You have Stackhouse fighting Laettner over gambling debts. Oakley threatening Tyrone Hill. Jordan still taking money from NBA guys. And it chooses the one punishment that pulls millions of dollars from the NBA’s pocket, and risks losing MJ for good.

Again, it seems like the only thing they did remotely right with this conspiracy theory is hide the proof.

Baseball banned Pete Rose for life for gambling so I don't know why Stern suspending Jordan for a year and a half and have Michael call it a retirement to save face as well as the leagues isn't plausible.

SILVER SEAVER
07-26-2014, 02:20 PM
I never bought that Michael in his prime winning championships wanted to step down from his crown and pursue a baseball career. So in the span of 147 regular season games he realized baseball wasn't a real possibility? Reinsdorf kept him employed with the Sox to make some coin for his minor league club and came back in '95 with 17 regular season games left to tune up before the playoffs. I don't see why it's considered a conspiracy theory when any athlete who gets caught gambling gets suspended. It wasn't just going to Atlantic City like the league frowned on, it's the other gambling he did where he gambled hundreds of thousands of dollars. Sometimes have a high competitive drive can be a detriment when it goes beyond the field or the basketball court.

Sadds The Gr8
07-26-2014, 02:21 PM
That makes sense. Kids would appreciate players that played long before they were born while older fans would rank players like Kobe with little understanding of his place in history. Well done.
that guy has quickly become probably the worst poster in this forum.

SILVER SEAVER
07-26-2014, 02:24 PM
It's not just that the younger generation doesn't realize how dominant Jordan was but the younger generation Lakers fans almost dismiss how great great Magic was for their own franchise.

Zefflin
07-26-2014, 02:29 PM
Magic himself says Kobe is the greatest Laker ever and D Wade himself just now said Kobe is the 2nd greatest behind Michael. Haha. Kobe's the freeeest bird of all.

http://fansided.com/2014/07/26/dwyane-wade-calls-kobe-bryant-second-best-time/#!bm86q6

SILVER SEAVER
07-26-2014, 03:18 PM
Magic himself says Kobe is the greatest Laker ever and D Wade himself just now said Kobe is the 2nd greatest behind Michael. Haha. Kobe's the freeeest bird of all.

http://fansided.com/2014/07/26/dwyane-wade-calls-kobe-bryant-second-best-time/#!bm86q6

Magic said Michael was the best after he lost to him in the Finals but I'm not so sure I buy what Magic is selling. Sometimes these guys make comments like that to come across as genuine but deep down they believe they were better.

slashsnake
07-26-2014, 04:48 PM
Magic himself says Kobe is the greatest Laker ever and D Wade himself just now said Kobe is the 2nd greatest behind Michael. Haha. Kobe's the freeeest bird of all.

http://fansided.com/2014/07/26/dwyane-wade-calls-kobe-bryant-second-best-time/#!bm86q6

And Wade might be a bit biased towards shooting guards for some unknown reason.

WadeKobe
07-26-2014, 06:21 PM
Magic himself says Kobe is the greatest Laker ever and D Wade himself just now said Kobe is the 2nd greatest behind Michael. Haha. Kobe's the freeeest bird of all.

http://fansided.com/2014/07/26/dwyane-wade-calls-kobe-bryant-second-best-time/#!bm86q6

I couldn't possibly care less what Magic and Wade think. Players have proven themselves on two fronts:

1) say whatever makes them look goo to the media
2) fail at player evaluation (once becoming GMs)

Teeboy1487
07-26-2014, 07:00 PM
Kobe is definitely an all time great. Second only to Jordan at his position of all time and Top 10 player of all time. This is my opinion of course. You won't see me trying to convince people otherwise. As for Kobe considered the GOAT, no way. The title will always belong to Jordan. I still always consider Magic the GLOAT because the title of GOAT goes beyond statistical and championship success. The player has to also revolutionize the game. Jordan completely revolutionized the game and Magic revolutionized the Lakers. Kobe is amazing but he was no revolutionary figure.

Zefflin
07-26-2014, 07:06 PM
Kobe is amazing but he was no revolutionary figure.

haha tell that to a chinaman

Faneik
07-27-2014, 07:55 AM
because basketball is a team game, and kobe is not a team player.

he forces shots, playing hero-ball, that leads to bad efficiency.

he is an amazing talent, but his ego and mindset often hurts his team.

In the 2008 Finals vs the Celtics, if the Lakers would be slightly behind, Celtics' lead increased because Kobe was taking contested 3-pt shots possession after possession.

bagwell368
07-27-2014, 08:48 AM
because basketball is a team game, and kobe is not a team player.

he forces shots, playing hero-ball, that leads to bad efficiency.

he is an amazing talent, but his ego and mindset often hurts his team.

In the 2008 Finals vs the Celtics, if the Lakers would be slightly behind, Celtics' lead increased because Kobe was taking contested 3-pt shots possession after possession.

Too busy trying to knock off Jordan... great scorer - but not efficient. Great player but arguably only the best player in 1 or 2 of his Championship seasons on his own team. Never once the best player in the league. Real great defender in his prime when it counted, lots of other times he didn't commit. Chased Shaq out of LA and arguably lost 1-2 rings doing that. Doesn't seem to be a guy that could play comfortably with other greats - like say Bird. Probably because he didn't share the rock or limelight very well.

He'll retire top 10, I don't see top 5. After another 25 years he'll slip out to #13 or something like that. Not the GOAT. He's a tough fit like I said. I wouldn't have him on my #1 or #2 team at least, maybe not even #3 or #4 - not because of talent or will, but because of wrecking team wa.

FlashBolt
07-27-2014, 12:01 PM
Ok let's disregard what legends have to say, and take the words of faceless internet user more seriously. The world of basketball has Kobe well into the top ten and Lebron off of it, but you still have 50 clowns on a debating site trying to convince us otherwise.

The majority of users here are a better judge of talent than Skip Bayless.. FYI.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-27-2014, 12:07 PM
Ok let's disregard what legends have to say, and take the words of faceless internet user more seriously. The world of basketball has Kobe well into the top ten and Lebron off of it, but you still have 50 clowns on a debating site trying to convince us otherwise.

The majority of users here are a better judge of talent than Skip Bayless.. FYI.

That's fine. What about nba players themselves? You can find tons of players backing my opinion on the top ten but very little backing lebron fans. Coincidence?

Sadds The Gr8
07-27-2014, 01:03 PM
Ok let's disregard what legends have to say, and take the words of a faceless internet user more seriously. The world of basketball has Kobe well into the top ten and Lebron off of it, but you still have 50 clowns on a debating site trying to convince us otherwise.



That's fine. What about nba players themselves? You can find tons of players backing my opinion on the top ten but very little backing lebron fans. Coincidence?
LOL so who the **** are you to call others here "faceless internet users"? you're doing the exact same ****....arguing on the internet.

I highly doubt you're some hotshot gm or nba front office person, so you're a faceless internet user too.

slashsnake
07-27-2014, 01:14 PM
Kobe is definitely an all time great. Second only to Jordan at his position of all time and Top 10 player of all time. This is my opinion of course. You won't see me trying to convince people otherwise. As for Kobe considered the GOAT, no way. The title will always belong to Jordan. I still always consider Magic the GLOAT because the title of GOAT goes beyond statistical and championship success. The player has to also revolutionize the game. Jordan completely revolutionized the game and Magic revolutionized the Lakers. Kobe is amazing but he was no revolutionary figure.

This.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-27-2014, 01:49 PM
Ok let's disregard what legends have to say, and take the words of a faceless internet user more seriously. The world of basketball has Kobe well into the top ten and Lebron off of it, but you still have 50 clowns on a debating site trying to convince us otherwise.



That's fine. What about nba players themselves? You can find tons of players backing my opinion on the top ten but very little backing lebron fans. Coincidence?
LOL so who the **** are you to call others here "faceless internet users"? you're doing the exact same ****....arguing on the internet.

I highly doubt you're some hotshot gm or nba front office person, so you're a faceless internet user too.

Sure I am, except my opinions coincide with theirs.

valade16
07-27-2014, 02:15 PM
That's fine. What about nba players themselves? You can find tons of players backing my opinion on the top ten but very little backing lebron fans. Coincidence?

Are you kidding? You can find a ridiculous amount of players saying LeBron is one of the best ever.

Hell, Magic himself LeBron could go down as the GOAT.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-27-2014, 02:32 PM
That's fine. What about nba players themselves? You can find tons of players backing my opinion on the top ten but very little backing lebron fans. Coincidence?

Are you kidding? You can find a ridiculous amount of players saying LeBron is one of the best ever.

Hell, Magic himself LeBron could go down as the GOAT.

But not very many say he's a top ten player. You can find videos of players, coaches, gms, etc claiming Kobe a top legend. But I'm supposed to take your guys opinions more seriously.Why would wade say Kobe's number two all time and not Lebron? The level of hate Kobe gets on here is a joke.

Jamiecballer
07-27-2014, 02:52 PM
Ok let's disregard what legends have to say, and take the words of a faceless internet user more seriously. The world of basketball has Kobe well into the top ten and Lebron off of it, but you still have 50 clowns on a debating site trying to convince us otherwise.
Legends tend to evaluate each other based on talent and team accomplishments rather than actual objective analysis, making them essentially no different than the casual fan.

In addition, I'm willing to bet they watch a considerable amount less basketball post retirement than an avid basketball fan.

Just how devoted a fan do you think they are likely to be? The NBA is a challenge they have conquered and moved on from. I will take the opinion of an objective hard core fan any day.

They are also often put on the spot. 'Hey what do you think of the incredible game Kobe is having today?' (Shoves microphone on face). Its not like these guys are expressing opinions in well thought out researched articles.

Jamiecballer
07-27-2014, 02:56 PM
But not very many say he's a top ten player. You can find videos of players, coaches, gms, etc claiming Kobe a top legend. But I'm supposed to take your guys opinions more seriously.Why would wade say Kobe's number two all time and not Lebron? The level of hate Kobe gets on here is a joke.
They say that because they know Kobe is close to the end of the line. Please be sure to come back in 7 years and eat a **** ton of crow.

GiantsSwaGG
07-27-2014, 03:02 PM
skill wise hes the goat IMO but the top players is not judged only by what you're as a player but what you have accomplished through out your career.


but i still have him 2nd behind mj.


http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/04/Oh-really-gif_1.gif

SILVER SEAVER
07-27-2014, 03:14 PM
Do people realize that these old school hall of fame players who go on sports talk radio or tv and say so and so is one of the greatest or thee greatest ever are doing that because they can't necessarily kill a player who is loved by most of the current young fan base. It's one of the reasons why I love Charles......if you play like a chump he calls you out and has no regard for what anybody thinks of his commentary. Historical players tend to get put on the back burner for flavors of the month that are the face of the league now. The only ones left who resemble that old school mentality are Kobe and Duncan. Depends what age range you poll if you asked who is the greatest of all-time between LeBron and MJ...obvious younger generation would say LBJ by a wide margin which is asinine. If not for Bird, Magic and Jordan this league would not be flourishing like it is today so it's important for younger fans to read up on these players and watch footage of they way they built the NBA.

beliges
07-27-2014, 04:21 PM
Lebron's one of the greatests to ever do it. But if he wants to be a "top legendary player" as the term is coined, he will need another couple of titles. It's as simple as that. Two rings on that miami squad with the competition in the eastern conference is nor propelling him in front of the greatest greats. If he manages to get a couple of more rings in cleavland then he cements himself in that top 7 place in the history of the game.

LakersEaglesLA
07-27-2014, 04:56 PM
All the players and commentators are wrong abt Kobe's greatness, the Kobe haters and Laker haters are right lol no one on psd played or coached against Kobe but your opinions are supposed tomove the meter smh

FlashBolt
07-27-2014, 05:02 PM
Do people realize that these old school hall of fame players who go on sports talk radio or tv and say so and so is one of the greatest or thee greatest ever are doing that because they can't necessarily kill a player who is loved by most of the current young fan base. It's one of the reasons why I love Charles......if you play like a chump he calls you out and has no regard for what anybody thinks of his commentary. Historical players tend to get put on the back burner for flavors of the month that are the face of the league now. The only ones left who resemble that old school mentality are Kobe and Duncan. Depends what age range you poll if you asked who is the greatest of all-time between LeBron and MJ...obvious younger generation would say LBJ by a wide margin which is asinine. If not for Bird, Magic and Jordan this league would not be flourishing like it is today so it's important for younger fans to read up on these players and watch footage of they way they built the NBA.

Those three players built the NBA because NBA was still at their baby stage compared to MLB, NFL, and even hockey. They didn't build anything if we're talking about figuratively.. They just happened to be born when NBA was down and thus people assume they made NBA the way it is today. If James was born at that era, he too would be one of those legends who would be critiquing Durant or Westbrook. If Kobe was born at that era, we would be asking "Is MJ the next Kobe"? Those guys didn't build crap.. NBA needed a superstar vs superstar matchup and with Bird and Magic coming along, that was their chance to take NBA to the next level. When that wasn't enough, MJ came along and they marketed the crap out of him. Most marketable player, why? Because Nike's owner was really close to NBA's higher ups. This was a chance for both of them to take their industry to the next level. MJ was athletic, good personality, and talented. Perfect guy for them.

Jamiecballer
07-27-2014, 07:27 PM
All the players and commentators are wrong abt Kobe's greatness, the Kobe haters and Laker haters are right lol no one on psd played or coached against Kobe but your opinions are supposed tomove the meter smh
Spoken like a child. Haters? Smh

Hawkeye15
07-27-2014, 07:50 PM
But not very many say he's a top ten player. You can find videos of players, coaches, gms, etc claiming Kobe a top legend. But I'm supposed to take your guys opinions more seriously.Why would wade say Kobe's number two all time and not Lebron? The level of hate Kobe gets on here is a joke.

so do you just pilot fish onto the few ex-players that share your opinion, or can you actually produce any sort of evidence you believe in that justifies your opinion?

I have not seen you once, and I mean once, give an actual opinion with something backing it up that is coming out of your mouth. You call anyone who doesn't worship Kobe a hater, and anyone who thinks LeBron is better a LeBron lover.

Do you have any original material?

Zefflin
07-27-2014, 11:53 PM
To the OP, the obvious answer is that he can't be considered the GOAT because he needs 2 more titles for that to happen. And that's gonna be mother f-ing hard to pull off with this current laker squad.

AIRMAR72
07-28-2014, 12:32 AM
Michael Jordan is the GOAT because of the players and teams he played against. We have a saying in Greek which pretty much means 'the value of the defeated gives glory to the winner'. It's an unwritten rule in everything in life.

Michael Jordan beat: Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal, Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Patrick Ewing, Joe Dumars, James Worthy, Gary Payton, Reggie Miller, Glen Rice, Chris Mullin, Mark Jackson, Mark Price, Dennis Rodman, Ron Harper, Buck Williams, Larry Nance, Kevin Willis, Kevin Johnson, Alonzo Mourning, Larry Johnson, Penny Hardaway, Shawn Kemp, Chris Webber
in the playoffs... while routinely outperfoming all time greats in the regular season. He played in the most stacked NBA era and was always on top.

And when in his prime, he never lost a championship[not sure how to view 1995 though]. He surely didn't win on his own and only a few have that in their resume. Someone like Hakeem Olajuwon could argue that, which is what puts him in most people's top 10.

Kobe does not belong in this group. He never will. Being an amazing player is not enough. There are so many all time greats that most people don't even know about (eg Oscar Robertson and Elgin Baylor who'd be #1 and #2 in our era if they were around). Not being the greatest or one of the few (eg 10) greatest is not an insult to these guys. Being top 30 or 50 or even 100 means you were a remarkable player.
Enough with this obsession to make Kobe (or Lebron) a god. Great players but not amongst the top guys. well said my man the problem is fans get confused WITH athleticism which Kobe Bryant IS and DON'T understand it takes more than just athletic ability playing on the NBA level example in the NFL Micheal Vick and Drew brees are almost the same height vick is more athletic laser Canon arm dance and OUT run defensive backs etc but on field vick is NOT BETTER when compared to brees who makes his offensive line(staying in the pocket) look good making read and put his wide receivers in position to make plays by throwing accurate catchable ball the same thing with kobe Bryant kobe good but NOT GREAT the great ones makes his teammates BETTER Mitch Richmond at 6"5 225 would eat kobe for breakfast lunch snack and dinner there other former NBA players THAT was BETTER than Kobe Bryant who is FINISH ranking kobe with past SG Kobe Bryant is in the top 20

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-28-2014, 12:44 AM
Michael Jordan is the GOAT because of the players and teams he played against. We have a saying in Greek which pretty much means 'the value of the defeated gives glory to the winner'. It's an unwritten rule in everything in life.

Michael Jordan beat: Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal, Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Patrick Ewing, Joe Dumars, James Worthy, Gary Payton, Reggie Miller, Glen Rice, Chris Mullin, Mark Jackson, Mark Price, Dennis Rodman, Ron Harper, Buck Williams, Larry Nance, Kevin Willis, Kevin Johnson, Alonzo Mourning, Larry Johnson, Penny Hardaway, Shawn Kemp, Chris Webber
in the playoffs... while routinely outperfoming all time greats in the regular season. He played in the most stacked NBA era and was always on top.

And when in his prime, he never lost a championship[not sure how to view 1995 though]. He surely didn't win on his own and only a few have that in their resume. Someone like Hakeem Olajuwon could argue that, which is what puts him in most people's top 10.

Kobe does not belong in this group. He never will. Being an amazing player is not enough. There are so many all time greats that most people don't even know about (eg Oscar Robertson and Elgin Baylor who'd be #1 and #2 in our era if they were around). Not being the greatest or one of the few (eg 10) greatest is not an insult to these guys. Being top 30 or 50 or even 100 means you were a remarkable player.
Enough with this obsession to make Kobe (or Lebron) a god. Great players but not amongst the top guys. well said my man the problem is fans get confused WITH athleticism which Kobe Bryant IS and DON'T understand it takes more than just athletic ability playing on the NBA level example in the NFL Micheal Vick and Drew brees are almost the same height vick is more athletic laser Canon arm dance and OUT run defensive backs etc but on field vick is NOT BETTER when compared to brees who makes his offensive line(staying in the pocket) look good making read and put his wide receivers in position to make plays by throwing accurate catchable ball the same thing with kobe Bryant kobe good but NOT GREAT the great ones makes his teammates BETTER Mitch Richmond at 6"5 225 would eat kobe for breakfast lunch snack and dinner there other former NBA players THAT was BETTER than Kobe Bryant who is FINISH ranking kobe with past SG Kobe Bryant is in the top 20

:laugh: this is one god awful post. Thanks for the laugh tho.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-28-2014, 12:57 AM
But not very many say he's a top ten player. You can find videos of players, coaches, gms, etc claiming Kobe a top legend. But I'm supposed to take your guys opinions more seriously.Why would wade say Kobe's number two all time and not Lebron? The level of hate Kobe gets on here is a joke.

so do you just pilot fish onto the few ex-players that share your opinion, or can you actually produce any sort of evidence you believe in that justifies your opinion?

I have not seen you once, and I mean once, give an actual opinion with something backing it up that is coming out of your mouth. You call anyone who doesn't worship Kobe a hater, and anyone who thinks LeBron is better a LeBron lover.

Do you have any original material?

First off it's not a "few ex players", it's the whole basketball community. I don't feel like I need to post info since your smart enough to know what I would say. No matter what argument I bring to the table you'll ignore it, So I'll be waiting my time.

Actually it's quite the opposite, if we don't bow down to Lebron were clowns or haters. Anyways, I'll take their comments and opinions a hundred times more seriously than any bias psd user.

bucketss
07-28-2014, 01:09 AM
First off it's not a "few ex players", it's the whole basketball community. I don't feel like I need to post info since your smart enough to know what I would say. No matter what argument I bring to the table you'll ignore it, So I'll be waiting my time.

Actually it's quite the opposite, if we don't bow down to Lebron were clowns or haters. Anyways, I'll take their comments and opinions a hundred times more seriously than any bias psd user.


:laugh: this is one god awful post. Thanks for the laugh tho.

great arguments man:up:

GREATNESS ONE
07-28-2014, 01:21 AM
:yawn: haters gonna hate.

GREATNESS ONE
07-28-2014, 01:22 AM
Spoken like a child. Haters? Smh

Responded like one.

GREATNESS ONE
07-28-2014, 01:24 AM
so do you just pilot fish onto the few ex-players that share your opinion, or can you actually produce any sort of evidence you believe in that justifies your opinion?

I have not seen you once, and I mean once, give an actual opinion with something backing it up that is coming out of your mouth. You call anyone who doesn't worship Kobe a hater, and anyone who thinks LeBron is better a LeBron lover.

Do you have any original material?

Pot calling the kettle black.

5ass
07-28-2014, 01:43 AM
great arguments man:up:

Lol dellusionist.

AIRMAR72
07-28-2014, 03:08 AM
:laugh: this is one god awful post. Thanks for the laugh tho. illusionist nobody is hating on your boy Kobe Bryant my dislike has NOTHING to with kobe talent my reason ARE personal and since I love the and play the game 5days a week 2-3hrs my judgment ARE based on decades of being involved and playing on all levels I read a few post on PSD referring to active NBA players saying kobe is rank in top 10 Ofcourse they'll say that just like in politics example Sarah Palin is dumb and stupid but you don't hear the republican party coming out saying that THEY want the citizens and the media to think and believe that party support her behind-the-scenes they know she's s a FOOL same goes for Kobe why you think Lakers management have a HARD time these days getting studs to play with kobe it's because behind-the-scenes they know who kobe is guys had enuff of his FAKE character

Jamiecballer
07-28-2014, 10:04 AM
Responded like one.
Its a child's response to refer to people who disagree as haters. Its like wearing a giant sign on your forehead that says 'mind is made up - not willing to consider new information'.

valade16
07-28-2014, 10:26 AM
First off it's not a "few ex players", it's the whole basketball community. I don't feel like I need to post info since your smart enough to know what I would say. No matter what argument I bring to the table you'll ignore it, So I'll be waiting my time.

Actually it's quite the opposite, if we don't bow down to Lebron were clowns or haters. Anyways, I'll take their comments and opinions a hundred times more seriously than any bias psd user.

When LeBron's career comes to a close and the Basketball community starts to call him one of the best ever , will you change your opinion?

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-28-2014, 11:35 AM
First off it's not a "few ex players", it's the whole basketball community. I don't feel like I need to post info since your smart enough to know what I would say. No matter what argument I bring to the table you'll ignore it, So I'll be waiting my time.

Actually it's quite the opposite, if we don't bow down to Lebron were clowns or haters. Anyways, I'll take their comments and opinions a hundred times more seriously than any bias psd user.

When LeBron's career comes to a close and the Basketball community starts to call him one of the best ever , will you change your opinion?

Maybe, but first the guy has to accomplish more before putting him there. He might go down as a top seven player, but he has a lot of work to do so. What bothers me with Lebron fans is they want to put him on that level now instead of waiting like every other great. He's a phenomenal talent but he's overrated to the max here.