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ManRam
07-23-2014, 09:23 AM
Voting for #11 has concluded and PSD's Official #11 NBA Player of all time is....

Bill Russell

15.1 PPG | 22.5 RPG | 4.3 AST | .440% FG | 18.88 PER

Achievements:

12 time All-Star
11 NBA Championships (Winningest Player Ever)
5 Time MVP
1 Time All-Star Game MVP
1 Time All-NBA First Teamer
3 Time All Defensive First Teamer
Led the League in Rebounding 4 times


Voting

Bill Russell 37
Oscar Robertson 13
Jerry West 4
Moses Malone 4
Julius Erving 3
David Robinson 3
Dwyane Wade 2
Charles Barkley 1
Elgin Baylor 1
Karl Malone 1
Kevin Garnett 0
Dirk Nowitzki 0
John Stockton 0
Isiah Thomas 0


The List:

1. Michael Jordan (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?868731-PSD-s-Official-1-Player-of-All-Time)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?868922-PSD-s-Official-2-NBA-Player-of-All-Time)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?869144-PSD-s-Official-3-Player-of-All-Time)
4. Magic Johnson (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?869307-PSD-s-Official-4-Player-of-All-Time)
5. Shaquille O'neal (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?869509-PSD-s-Official-5-NBA-Player-of-All-Time)
6. Tim Duncan (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?869984-PSD-s-Official-6-NBA-Player-of-All-Time)
7. Hakeem Olajuwan (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?870218-PSD-s-Official-7-Player-of-All-Time)
8. LeBron James (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?870493-PSD-s-Official-8-Player-of-All-Time&p=28768479#post28768479)
9. Larry Bird (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?870796-PSD-s-Official-9-Player-of-All-Time)
10. Kobe Bryant (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?871131-PSD-s-Official-10-Player-of-All-Time)
11. Bill Russell (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?871367-PSD-s-Official-11-Player-of-All-Time)

Please vote, explain and nominate...per the usual.

jaydubb
07-23-2014, 09:44 AM
Dwayne wade got a couple votes.. Haha

Very appropriate Russell got spot #11 also how man rings he has as a player.

Tough choice for #12. I'd personally go with jerry west or the big o. Can't decide

mrblisterdundee
07-23-2014, 09:47 AM
It's going to take some historical knowledge to name the best player on this list. I like Oscar Robertson for this position, but not by a large margin.

thenaj17
07-23-2014, 10:04 AM
Not a Mavs fan but i'd love to see Dirk get another ring. I wonder where it would push him up this list aswell.

Have to go with Oscar here, a player who could do it all. Averaging a triple double is very impressive, even for that era

sixers247
07-23-2014, 10:17 AM
West then Big O

ThuglifeJ
07-23-2014, 11:57 AM
Dr J

StarvingKnick22
07-23-2014, 12:17 PM
John Stockton is so ****ing underrated

ManRam
07-23-2014, 12:46 PM
It's between West and Oscar to me. They both entered and exited the league at the same time. They both won one championship. I think West was more frequently on better teams, mostly because he played with a little more talent, so I don't quite use that as the distinguishing factor. But sill, when Lucas and Oscar were at the helms of those Royals teams, they were often pretty poor. That matters.

Regular season stats are more or less a wash...probably slightly favoring Oscar. For me, however, it's the playoff numbers that have me leaning West. Even if you just get past the sheer volume differences, West was slightly better all around. He's third all time in playoff PPG. His career PER bests everyone from his era and earlier aside from Mikan and Shayes. It's significantly better than Oscar's. He's 11th in playoff win shares trailing only players who have already been voted in and Dr. J.

The other edge that has me leaning West is his defense. I won't pretend to state that because of my own eyes or opinion, but everything I read suggests West was superior on that end. He made all those early All-Defense teams and Oscar didn't. He's always referred to as a guy who was equally as great on both ends. He and Frazier were always the two I was told were the cream defensively of those eras. He really had no wholes in is game, and even though Oscar is as versatile as it gets, West was too. Perhaps even more so because of that defense. He could play either guard spot and play it great. He was a great combo guard, and "combo guard" being a good thing.

West was simply the better two-way player IMO.

And if you care about individual match ups, West won those battles, both in terms of wins and losses and in terms of individual play play. When they met in the playoffs in 72, West WAXED Oscar. It was later in their careers, but still.

Lastly, I think West's game holds up today. He had an insanely quick release and the ability to create that shot on his own. He was great at drawing fouls. He had way more range, which we know is super important. He had those "clutch genes".

Moses is the other tough choice to pass up on. I might vote for him over Oscar. We'll see.

Also, I think I voted for Oscar ahead of West last time. Not 100% sure. But I am aware that my opinions of both have slightly changed over time.

mngopher35
07-23-2014, 12:55 PM
Oscar here for me

Chronz
07-23-2014, 12:57 PM
Definitely, west
Will provide more when I'm home but anyone feel free to make a case against west

Bruno
07-23-2014, 02:13 PM
I like Moses Malone here.

1983, that was the year of Moses. right in the middle of Lakers/Celtics. yet his name never gets mentioned when we talk about the 80's.

Regular season MVP, finals MVP, defensive first team selection, NBA first team selection, all-star. Lead the 1983 regular season in PER, WS, and WS/48. Lead the 76ers to a league best 7.53 SRS mark for the regular season and complimented that regular season with a 12-1 playoff run which culminated in a sweep of the defending NBA champion Lakers. Moses lead the 1983 post-season in PER, WS/, WS/48, all rebounding percentages, as well as defensive rating.

In terms of having "that year", that career defining year, I'm not sure if there's a single player left of the board who has one individual season in their resume that surpasses what Moses Malone did in 1983.


thats one year. he accomplished 'peak year' in spades and total GOAT fashion. Moses played for two decades, longevity doesn't really need to be discussed with Moses. he's got that in spades.

dominant advanced peak, team success as top dog, legendary longevity, and lets not forget he gets defensive anchor credit as well.

i don't see how west or O have an argument over him considering their team success, inability to anchor a defense, and the length of Moses career, but I'm open to being schooled here. i don't think west or O have a single season peak that surpasses what Moses did in 1983, although I'm sure they have 5-7 year runs that are more impressive as far as advanced in concerned.

KnicksorBust
07-23-2014, 02:34 PM
I like Moses Malone here.

1983, that was the year of Moses. right in the middle of Lakers/Celtics. yet his name never gets mentioned when we talk about the 80's.

Regular season MVP, finals MVP, defensive first team selection, NBA first team selection, all-star. Lead the 1983 regular season in PER, WS, and WS/48. Lead the 76ers to a league best 7.53 SRS mark for the regular season and complimented that regular season with a 12-1 playoff run which culminated in a sweep of the defending NBA champion Lakers. Moses lead the 1983 post-season in PER, WS/, WS/48, all rebounding percentages, as well as defensive rating.

In terms of having "that year", that career defining year, I'm not sure if there's a single player left of the board who has one individual season in their resume that surpasses what Moses Malone did in 1983.


thats one year. he accomplished 'peak year' in spades and total GOAT fashion. Moses played for two decades, longevity doesn't really need to be discussed with Moses. he's got that in spades.

dominant advanced peak, team success as top dog, legendary longevity, and lets not forget he gets defensive anchor credit as well.

i don't see how west or O have an argument over him considering their team success, inability to anchor a defense, and the length of Moses career, but I'm open to being schooled here. i don't think west or O have a single season peak that surpasses what Moses did in 1983, although I'm sure they have 5-7 year runs that are more impressive as far as advanced in concerned.

Thought I was going to be alone on this one. I completely agree.

NBA champion (1983)
NBA Finals MVP (1983)
3 NBA Most Valuable Player (1979, 19821983)
12 NBA All-Star (19781989)
2 ABA All-Star (19751976)
4 All-NBA First Team (1979, 19821983, 1985)
4 All-NBA Second Team (19801981, 1984, 1987)
NBA All-Defensive First Team (1983)
NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1979)
ABA All-Rookie Team (1975)
6 NBA rebounding champion (1979, 19811985)

He has more league MVPs than West and Oscar combined. He was the best player on his championship team. He dominated the floor on both ends and his longevity is "legendary" as you put it. He checks all the boxes for me.

Bruno
07-23-2014, 03:02 PM
Thought I was going to be alone on this one. I completely agree.

NBA champion (1983)
NBA Finals MVP (1983)
3 NBA Most Valuable Player (1979, 19821983)
12 NBA All-Star (19781989)
2 ABA All-Star (19751976)
4 All-NBA First Team (1979, 19821983, 1985)
4 All-NBA Second Team (19801981, 1984, 1987)
NBA All-Defensive First Team (1983)
NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1979)
ABA All-Rookie Team (1975)
6 NBA rebounding champion (1979, 19811985)

He has more league MVPs than West and Oscar combined. He was the best player on his championship team. He dominated the floor on both ends and his longevity is "legendary" as you put it. He checks all the boxes for me.

me too. no disrespect to West or O, two players I'd vote for immediately after moses.

ManRam
07-23-2014, 03:36 PM
I think West had a few peak seasons that top Moses', which to me is more important than voting awards. And I think his play on both ends definitely is right there too. It's splitting hairs, but I do think they're both slightly more deserving than Oscar, if for no other reason than the fact that they both defended a hell of a lot better than Oscar.

Ebbs
07-23-2014, 04:08 PM
Yea I'm actually with KoB here. Moses got it done. Has freaky stats. . .

Bruno
07-23-2014, 04:19 PM
I think West had a few peak seasons that top Moses', which to me is more important than voting awards. And I think his play on both ends definitely is right there too. It's splitting hairs, but I do think they're both slightly more deserving than Oscar, if for no other reason than the fact that they both defended a hell of a lot better than Oscar.

Moses took claim on regular season and playoff leader in PER, WS and WS/48 for the year. I'm looking at Wests numbers and they're close but West never lead PER, WS, WS/48 in both the regular season and playoffs in the same season like Moses did in 1983. as far as single season I think Moses has West, and that's without trying to consider 1983s MVP, finals MVP and championship for the sake of argument.

or did I misread and you're saying wests 3-5 or 5-7 year peak surpasses Moses? I'm pretty certain West doesn't have a single season that tops Moses in 1983 but I agree that Wests extended peak of 5-7 years is probably tops.

west is an excellent defensive guard but its hard to compare what he did on the perimeter to what the anchor does for his team.

I don't like talking about regular season MVPs either but I mention it because of the greater context of what Moses did in 1983. If the season was an award show, he swept it, Lord of the Rings style. advanced line, accolades and success across the board, regular season and playoffs. West came close to doing this in 1969, but Willis Reed topped him in regular season WS, and as we know LAL blew game seven on their home court against Boston in the Finals. fun fact from that game, Bill Russell scored 6 points.

Bruno
07-23-2014, 04:22 PM
It's between West and Oscar to me. They both entered and exited the league at the same time. They both won one championship. I think West was more frequently on better teams, mostly because he played with a little more talent, so I don't quite use that as the distinguishing factor. But sill, when Lucas and Oscar were at the helms of those Royals teams, they were often pretty poor. That matters.

Regular season stats are more or less a wash...probably slightly favoring Oscar. For me, however, it's the playoff numbers that have me leaning West. Even if you just get past the sheer volume differences, West was slightly better all around. He's third all time in playoff PPG. His career PER bests everyone from his era and earlier aside from Mikan and Shayes. It's significantly better than Oscar's. He's 11th in playoff win shares trailing only players who have already been voted in and Dr. J.

The other edge that has me leaning West is his defense. I won't pretend to state that because of my own eyes or opinion, but everything I read suggests West was superior on that end. He made all those early All-Defense teams and Oscar didn't. He's always referred to as a guy who was equally as great on both ends. He and Frazier were always the two I was told were the cream defensively of those eras. He really had no wholes in is game, and even though Oscar is as versatile as it gets, West was too. Perhaps even more so because of that defense. He could play either guard spot and play it great. He was a great combo guard, and "combo guard" being a good thing.

West was simply the better two-way player IMO.

And if you care about individual match ups, West won those battles, both in terms of wins and losses and in terms of individual play play. When they met in the playoffs in 72, West WAXED Oscar. It was later in their careers, but still.

Lastly, I think West's game holds up today. He had an insanely quick release and the ability to create that shot on his own. He was great at drawing fouls. He had way more range, which we know is super important. He had those "clutch genes".

Moses is the other tough choice to pass up on. I might vote for him over Oscar. We'll see.

Also, I think I voted for Oscar ahead of West last time. Not 100% sure. But I am aware that my opinions of both have slightly changed over time.

so have mine. its a good thing it means were open to new arguments and ideas.

DR_1
07-23-2014, 05:19 PM
Big O takes this with incredible ease. He's just that much better than everyone left IMO.

Chronz
07-23-2014, 05:22 PM
Big O takes this with incredible ease. He's just that much better than everyone left IMO.
Ok, i know there is technically no wrong answer in these sort of things but I'm sure your post is the least likely to be true
No one crushes anyone imo

DR_1
07-23-2014, 05:26 PM
Ok, i know there is technically no wrong answer in these sort of things but I'm sure your post is the least likely to be true
No one crushes anyone imo

I'm just a big fan of Big O I guess then lol. I think he has been underrated thus far.

KnicksorBust
07-23-2014, 05:30 PM
Big O takes this with incredible ease. He's just that much better than everyone left IMO.
Ok, i know there is technically no wrong answer in these sort of things but I'm sure your post is the least likely to be true
No one crushes anyone imo

Im assuming this post is a precusor to a masssive year by year breakdown that supports your vote that Jerry West is the winner and Moses Malone was simply Rony Seikaly of the 80s.

YAALREADYKNO
07-23-2014, 05:45 PM
moses. Oscar is one of the most overrated

DR_1
07-23-2014, 05:47 PM
Im assuming this post is a precusor to a masssive year by year breakdown that supports your vote that Jerry West is the winner and Moses Malone was simply Rony Seikaly of the 80s.

:laugh2:

YAALREADYKNO
07-23-2014, 05:47 PM
Big O takes this with incredible ease. He's just that much better than everyone left IMO.

naw he's a stat sheet stuffer. Could never win anything as a number 1

KnicksorBust
07-23-2014, 06:44 PM
Yea I'm actually with KoB here. Moses got it done. Has freaky stats. . .

Smart guy. :)

Chronz
07-23-2014, 07:24 PM
Im assuming this post is a precusor to a masssive year by year breakdown that supports your vote that Jerry West is the winner and Moses Malone was simply Rony Seikaly of the 80s.
I wanted to post a year by year breakdown of West and Oscar but it seems like Moses might be the logical choice, my only complaint is that his longevity is overrated

Still not home but I'm weirdly looking forward to any sort of debate here

ManRam
07-23-2014, 07:24 PM
I'm #TeamEitherOneJustNotOscar. Should have waited to vote. Would have swooped in on Moses here.

KnicksorBust
07-23-2014, 07:52 PM
I wanted to post a year by year breakdown of West and Oscar but it seems like Moses might be the logical choice, my only complaint is that his longevity is overrated

Still not home but I'm weirdly looking forward to any sort of debate here

:laugh: I'll be disappointed if you ditch the Logo at this point

KnicksorBust
07-23-2014, 07:54 PM
I'm #TeamEitherOneJustNotOscar. Should have waited to vote. Would have swooped in on Moses here.

Do you still have enough juice on this site to switch that vote or what?

#powertripping
#parttheredseas
#karlwishhedidthis
#eastisbetterthanwest
#oscarthegrouch
#sofiavergarahasbigtits

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-23-2014, 08:58 PM
Now that bill is off the board, Lebron will lock this one up

Ebbs
07-23-2014, 09:02 PM
Now that bill is off the board, Lebron will lock this one up

What,

Longhornfan1234
07-23-2014, 11:55 PM
I wanted to post a year by year breakdown of West and Oscar but it seems like Moses might be the logical choice, my only complaint is that his longevity is overrated

Still not home but I'm weirdly looking forward to any sort of debate here

I want to read your breakdown.

tredigs
07-24-2014, 12:16 AM
Should have waited 5 years. This is pathetic, and I have no ambition to contribute.

/contribution.

THE MTL
07-24-2014, 12:38 AM
I'll take Dr J here for sure. But I could see the argument for West or Big O. I'm just mad people see 11 rings from bill russell and get hard. In today's NBA, he would not be better than Dr J, West, or Erving. Each of those players would be Top 2 in the league.

Chronz
07-24-2014, 12:53 AM
Should have waited 5 years. This is pathetic, and I have no ambition to contribute.

/contribution.

What? Why?

FlashBolt
07-24-2014, 01:17 AM
What? Why?

Because he doesn't agree with the way the voting has turned out.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-24-2014, 01:48 AM
What? Why?

Because he doesn't agree with the way the voting has turned out.well this list is pretty laughable.

FlashBolt
07-24-2014, 01:59 AM
well this list is pretty laughable.

And your posts are always laughable so I don't see why it should matter.

Chronz
07-24-2014, 02:05 AM
Because he doesn't agree with the way the voting has turned out.

This shouldn't really be about the list, but the arguments waged. I got over a few votings I didn't like.

FlashBolt
07-24-2014, 02:38 AM
This shouldn't really be about the list, but the arguments waged. I got over a few votings I didn't like.

I don't find the list bad. Some players got a bit higher or lower than they should be but considering how subjective we all are, it's just a matter of what we value most. The odds someone gets 100% of what they voted for from 1-12 at this point is very rare.

85BearsDefense
07-24-2014, 09:12 AM
So disgusting how far Bill slipped. Imma post my argument why he should have been 2 or 3 after work.

Chronz
07-24-2014, 09:40 AM
So disgusting how far Bill slipped. Imma post my argument why he should have been 2 or 3 after work.

Hes the only 1 that people could possibly get enraged about, everyone else is pretty much within range.

ManRam
07-24-2014, 10:07 AM
I finally made the Top-50 List thread like last time. Feel free to argue about anything there. 85BearsDefense: that might be the best place for spillover Bill Russell talk.

Chronz
07-24-2014, 12:38 PM
:laugh: I'll be disappointed if you ditch the Logo at this point
Sometimes you gotta play politics. Moses should go first, if for nothing else but to keep Big O and West closer together. A vote for Moses is a vote for boring longevity and a 5 year peak.


I like Moses Malone here.

1983, that was the year of Moses. right in the middle of Lakers/Celtics. yet his name never gets mentioned when we talk about the 80's.
Thats because he fell off a cliff and lost the fire in his belly. Started battling weight problems aka the coasting off a championship effect.


Regular season MVP, finals MVP, defensive first team selection, NBA first team selection, all-star. Lead the 1983 regular season in PER, WS, and WS/48. Lead the 76ers to a league best 7.53 SRS mark for the regular season and complimented that regular season with a 12-1 playoff run which culminated in a sweep of the defending NBA champion Lakers. Moses lead the 1983 post-season in PER, WS/, WS/48, all rebounding percentages, as well as defensive rating.

In terms of having "that year", that career defining year, I'm not sure if there's a single player left of the board who has one individual season in their resume that surpasses what Moses Malone did in 1983.
Agreed, everything aligned perfectly for him to check off all the boxes that we look at. Some players dont have that good fortune, for the players who played vs the Boston Dynasty, we should look at how far they pushed that powerhouse of a squad. But yes, this would be the top season between both players. Even if West was as dominant in some of his seasons, his teammates definitely weren't.



thats one year. he accomplished 'peak year' in spades and total GOAT fashion. Moses played for two decades, longevity doesn't really need to be discussed with Moses. he's got that in spades.

dominant advanced peak, team success as top dog, legendary longevity, and lets not forget he gets defensive anchor credit as well.
His D wasn't consistent or overwhelming, at his best he was more impactful for his team than West, but for his era, West was among the best in the game. We know he wasn't the offensive player that Oscar was so his defensive impact would have to be pretty high for them to be in the same boat.

And I would love to discuss Moses longevity. His Peak Run is easily distinguishable, it begins his first MVP season, 1979 when he leads the Rockets back to the playoffs and displays elite levels of efficiency and he sustains/exceeds this level of play up until the aforementioned championship run in 83. Tho he was an All-Star caliber big before this run, and an All-NBA caliber big thereafter, this stretch of play is clearly what builds his case. And 5 years is plenty of time to make a case, so much so that I might agree with you guys. But heres why I dont:

1979-1983

RS Production: 26.1PPG - 15.2REB - 1.6AST
26.9 Usage% (116 ORTG) .209WSx48

PS Production: 26.1PPG - 15.2REB - 1.6AST
26.4 Usage% (114 ORTG) .195WSx48

DOMINANCE!! Then....

His next 5 Postseason numbers (1984-1989):
20.3PPG - 11.6REB - 1.7AST
22.8 Usage% (113 ORTG) .149WSx48

This run included an embarrassing first round defeat vs the Nets where Moses struggled mightily, 1 fairly strong run to the ECF where he struggled vs the Celtics front line and 3 other first round flameouts where he didn't light it up.

Moses was still winning All-NBA awards but he wasn't producing like your typical dominant All-NBA'er, he just remained so because the Center position was in a state of transition at the time. Everything before and after that 5 year stretch includes maybe 1 more truly career enhancing year (His Final year with Philly) and a bunch of All-Star level filler.








i don't see how west or O have an argument over him considering their team success, inability to anchor a defense, and the length of Moses career, but I'm open to being schooled here. i don't think west or O have a single season peak that surpasses what Moses did in 1983, although I'm sure they have 5-7 year runs that are more impressive as far as advanced in concerned.
Moses had the best year, and a comparable 5 year run to these guys.

West lacks "the year" but he was similarly dominant for a stretch thats so long/consistent, that its hard to really distinguish when he fell off. The guy gives you superstar play for a solid decade vs 5 years from Moses. In terms of superstar longevity, Moses doesn't stack up to a guy who more than doubles his All-NBA First Team selections and multiple seasons with production comparable to his best seasons.


Let me put it this way, Moses had a clear 3 year stretch that stands out, when he takes the Rockets to the Finals despite a sub.500 record, up until his championship season. West has like 6 years where hes similarly dominant, he just didn't have a year where he won a chip. That could make the difference but its tough to blame West for not winning against the dominating teams back then.

Bruno
07-24-2014, 01:49 PM
Thats because he fell off a cliff and lost the fire in his belly. Started battling weight problems aka the coasting off a championship effect.
I'd love to see a complete list of that. the lost the fire in the belly first team. but yeah, one strong run won't have people mentioning you're name with Magics and Birds thirty years later.



Agreed, everything aligned perfectly for him to check off all the boxes that we look at. Some players dont have that good fortune, for the players who played vs the Boston Dynasty, we should look at how far they pushed that powerhouse of a squad. But yes, this would be the top season between both players. Even if West was as dominant in some of his seasons, his teammates definitely weren't.
right. i care about longevity, I just had to present the fact that Moses had a hell of a peak year. all the dominos fell into place.



His D wasn't consistent or overwhelming, at his best he was more impactful for his team than West, but for his era, West was among the best in the game. We know he wasn't the offensive player that Oscar was so his defensive impact would have to be pretty high for them to be in the same boat.
to be honest it's probably much of what you've written- regarding Malone being able to punk KAJ at times, that had me giving him defensive anchor credit. maybe that was just the perfect match up for him, and I extended that branch a bit too far. sometimes people just match up well against each other. center of gravity, aging, ect.

where do we rank west all time in terms of defense on the perimeter?


And I would love to discuss Moses longevity. His Peak Run is easily distinguishable, it begins his first MVP season, 1979 when he leads the Rockets back to the playoffs and displays elite levels of efficiency and he sustains/exceeds this level of play up until the aforementioned championship run in 83. Tho he was an All-Star caliber big before this run, and an All-NBA caliber big thereafter, this stretch of play is clearly what builds his case. And 5 years is plenty of time to make a case, so much so that I might agree with you guys. But heres why I dont:

1979-1983

RS Production: 26.1PPG - 15.2REB - 1.6AST
26.9 Usage% (116 ORTG) .209WSx48

PS Production: 26.1PPG - 15.2REB - 1.6AST
26.4 Usage% (114 ORTG) .195WSx48

DOMINANCE!! Then....

His next 5 Postseason numbers (1984-1989):
20.3PPG - 11.6REB - 1.7AST
22.8 Usage% (113 ORTG) .149WSx48

This run included an embarrassing first round defeat vs the Nets where Moses struggled mightily, 1 fairly strong run to the ECF where he struggled vs the Celtics front line and 3 other first round flameouts where he didn't light it up.
there's a drop off for sure. very up and down. i guess consistency wasn't the name of the game with Moses Malone.


Moses was still winning All-NBA awards but he wasn't producing like your typical dominant All-NBA'er, he just remained so because the Center position was in a state of transition at the time. Everything before and after that 5 year stretch includes maybe 1 more truly career enhancing year (His Final year with Philly) and a bunch of All-Star level filler.
yeah I guess you're right. outside of his peak everything is far more modest than whats on Wests resume. maybe just saying twenty year career and leave it at that was a bit lazy.




Moses had the best year, and a comparable 5 year run to these guys.

West lacks "the year" but he was similarly dominant for a stretch thats so long/consistent, that its hard to really distinguish when he fell off. The guy gives you superstar play for a solid decade vs 5 years from Moses. In terms of superstar longevity, Moses doesn't stack up to a guy who more than doubles his All-NBA First Team selections and multiple seasons with production comparable to his best seasons.
you know I value longevity so I'm all ear and do agree.



Let me put it this way, Moses had a clear 3 year stretch that stands out, when he takes the Rockets to the Finals despite a sub.500 record, up until his championship season. West has like 6 years where hes similarly dominant, he just didn't have a year where he won a chip. That could make the difference but its tough to blame West for not winning against the dominating teams back then.
I get ya, Moses flared out a bit. Jerry sustained the greatness for far longer. you know I value longevity and usually scoff at building an argument around a one year peak, to a certain extent. but i think I gave Moses the bump in the vein of big vs small. perhaps to a fault? I like either here.

Chronz
07-24-2014, 02:21 PM
Well so long as we all agree on the next 3 being O, Moses, West in some order, I'll be glad with this tier.

Any thoughts on players we might be overlooking?

Chronz
07-24-2014, 02:38 PM
I'd love to see a complete list of that. the lost the fire in the belly first team. but yeah, one strong run won't have people mentioning you're name with Magics and Birds thirty years later.
I imagine Shaq was on one of those teams.


where do we rank west all time in terms of defense on the perimeter?
Dont know much beyond his reputation but he strikes me as abit of a gambler, always going for the block or steal, even in 1 on 1 situations. Its a big reason why he posted gaudy numbers for a guy his age when they finally began tracking his defensive contributions. I remember seeing some rough +/- estimates from his era and older West definitely relied on reputation more than anything to make his last few All-D teams. Plenty of guys were lighting him up towards the end from what I've been told. But in his younger days, I would say only GP, Frazier, and Kidd were better at the 1. Kobe, Moncrief and MJ being the only 2 guards that could best him, though West was likely more consistent than Kobe.

.

there's a drop off for sure. very up and down. i guess consistency wasn't the name of the game with Moses Malone.
Depends on how you look at it. Some guys have a steady ascension and decline, a perfect arc in terms of production. Moses had like 2 separate careers, the superstar arc then his decline, which while very rapid, was also a very consistent 9 year stretch of All-Star caliber performance. If we just ignored the first part of his career and focused solely on that 2nd act, he would still be in the running for the HOF. I wonder where he would rank overall tho.

Bruno
07-24-2014, 02:41 PM
Well so long as we all agree on the next 3 being O, Moses, West in some order, I'll be glad with this tier.

Any thoughts on players we might be overlooking?

I agree.

...maybe KG or Charles? i think its these three then the next grouping, but I think a charles or KG could be debated. maybe even Dirk? tough to say really. robinson?


your SIG reminds me of "crazy kobe fan" on youtube.

"...lets take a road trip to santa Barbara hit up some charming shops and BUY SOME ANTIQUES!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNBsg43cdTc

dudes an actor for sure.

Sadds The Gr8
07-24-2014, 03:10 PM
What,
he's butthurt that LeBron got voted 8 over Kobe and has been trolling these threads ever since. I actually agree that LeBron is too high at this point but I don't care about it enough to troll like a clown.

Bruno
07-24-2014, 03:22 PM
I imagine Shaq was on one of those teams.
maybe that defending champion miami team that got knocked out of the first round by the pre-Rose Bulls the year following the championship?



Dont know much beyond his reputation but he strikes me as abit of a gambler, always going for the block or steal, even in 1 on 1 situations. Its a big reason why he posted gaudy numbers for a guy his age when they finally began tracking his defensive contributions. I remember seeing some rough +/- estimates from his era and older West definitely relied on reputation more than anything to make his last few All-D teams. Plenty of guys were lighting him up towards the end from what I've been told. But in his younger days, I would say only GP, Frazier, and Kidd were better at the 1. Kobe, Moncrief and MJ being the only 2 guards that could best him, though West was likely more consistent than Kobe.
was going to say, that opening description of west sounded like Kobe. do you think Kobe would have sustained his D for longer if he didn't have to put up 35 in the mid 2000's?
.


Depends on how you look at it. Some guys have a steady ascension and decline, a perfect arc in terms of production. Moses had like 2 separate careers, the superstar arc then his decline, which while very rapid, was also a very consistent 9 year stretch of All-Star caliber performance. If we just ignored the first part of his career and focused solely on that 2nd act, he would still be in the running for the HOF. I wonder where he would rank overall tho.
I think it'd still be difficult to put him over Hakeem or Duncan. really depends.

Bruno
07-24-2014, 03:23 PM
we've been debating Moses vs. West but O is running away with the poll. Id love to see a behemoth from one of the O voters.

YAALREADYKNO
07-24-2014, 03:56 PM
moses should be ahead of oscar. Dont know how oscar is better than moses

KnicksorBust
07-24-2014, 05:49 PM
we've been debating Moses vs. West but O is running away with the poll. Id love to see a behemoth from one of the O voters.

Its like a great mystery. All these secret random Oscar Robertson devoted fans who have contributed basically nothing to the thread. You would think the discussion would swing the votes. Especially when Oscar was pre 98% of PSDs birth.

Raidaz4Life
07-24-2014, 06:02 PM
I honestly think everyone is looking in the wrong direction and it should be between Chuck and Karl. I went with Karl by a slim margin.

YAALREADYKNO
07-24-2014, 06:08 PM
I honestly think everyone is looking in the wrong direction and it should be between Chuck and Karl. I went with Karl by a slim margin.

seriously?

Raidaz4Life
07-24-2014, 06:09 PM
seriously?

Seriously

XpLiCiTT
07-24-2014, 06:31 PM
Dwyane Wade having 3 votes tells you all you need to know about the seriousness of these polls.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-24-2014, 06:42 PM
Dwyane Wade having 3 votes tells you all you need to know about the seriousness of these polls.

I know right, look at the joke that is the top ten.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2014, 07:39 PM
I honestly think everyone is looking in the wrong direction and it should be between Chuck and Karl. I went with Karl by a slim margin.

no way over O or West dude. No way. Karl Malone was a routine choker. Chuck goes way before him, and should be the next PF off the board, but 3-5 spots down the line.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2014, 07:40 PM
top 10 looks pretty solid honestly, even if Magic went 2-3 spots too high for me.

Raidaz4Life
07-24-2014, 08:03 PM
no way over O or West dude. No way. Karl Malone was a routine choker. Chuck goes way before him, and should be the next PF off the board, but 3-5 spots down the line.

Nahh, I feel like being 3rd all time in win shares, 2 mvps, and 2nd all time in scoring is enough to warrant the 12 spot. His longevity might be the most impressive of any player ever outside of Kareem

XpLiCiTT
07-24-2014, 08:15 PM
I know right, look at the joke that is the top ten.

Name-wise the top 10 is on point. The order of those names is another debate/difference of opinion.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2014, 08:30 PM
Nahh, I feel like being 3rd all time in win shares, 2 mvps, and 2nd all time in scoring is enough to warrant the 12 spot. His longevity might be the most impressive of any player ever outside of Kareem

his longevity is awesome, but he was a choker when it mattered, and was never impressive enough statistically to even challenge Chuck, let alone West or O.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-24-2014, 08:38 PM
top 10 looks pretty solid honestly, even if Magic went 2-3 spots too high for me.

*By Psd standards.

DR_1
07-24-2014, 08:59 PM
This shouldn't really be about the list, but the arguments waged. I got over a few votings I didn't like.

That's a good point, I disagree with LeBron's ranking but I still am enjoying the debates.

Shammyguy3
07-24-2014, 09:00 PM
Had to go with Moses here before reading debates, and even after I maintain that Moses deserves this spot. Seems like Oscar ends up getting it though, even though I'd have voted for West next like many who have already posted.

The next one should be a good split between West/Moses votes, if only bc I expect a lot of the Oscar voters to vote for West next.

But, those three fill out my top-14. At #15 is where it gets interesting, I can see it going a number of directions

valade16
07-24-2014, 11:34 PM
his longevity is awesome, but he was a choker when it mattered, and was never impressive enough statistically to even challenge Chuck, let alone West or O.

I guess this is an argument for later but I don't see Barkley's #'s as hands down better than Malone's and we also have to take into account that Malone was a good defender and Charles... Not so much.

Chronz
07-24-2014, 11:37 PM
That's a good point, I disagree with LeBron's ranking but I still am enjoying the debates.

Same here, bron going a few spots before he really should is a sorry complaint.

Raidaz4Life
07-25-2014, 04:58 AM
his longevity is awesome, but he was a choker when it mattered, and was never impressive enough statistically to even challenge Chuck, let alone West or O.

Malone had a higher single season PER than any of Chuck, West, or O while having a higher career PER than O and West even though he played longer. Had 9 seasons of a PER over 15, 14 of a PER over 10. He had a higher career TS% than West or O. He won as many MVPs as O, West, and Chuck combined playing in arguably the most competitive era of basketball.


If someone picked Chuck over him I wouldn't argue, pretty torn between the two but I feel Karl's longevity puts him ahead.

YAALREADYKNO
07-25-2014, 08:29 AM
no way over O or West dude. No way. Karl Malone was a routine choker. Chuck goes way before him, and should be the next PF off the board, but 3-5 spots down the line.

dirk should be the next PF to go off the board. He's proven he can lead a squad to a championship something those two guys never done and kg needed two other allstars to get one

YAALREADYKNO
07-25-2014, 08:32 AM
Malone had a higher single season PER than any of Chuck, West, or O while having a higher career PER than O and West even though he played longer. Had 9 seasons of a PER over 15, 14 of a PER over 10. He had a higher career TS% than West or O. He won as many MVPs as O, West, and Chuck combined playing in arguably the most competitive era of basketball.


If someone picked Chuck over him I wouldn't argue, pretty torn between the two but I feel Karl's longevity puts him ahead.


what did he do in the playoffs tho? lol if we're just talking regular season and stats here then its wilt, kareem, jordan, malone as the greatest players of alltime lol dude always came up short in the playoffs even when jordan retired he couldn't even get past hakeem and the rockets

Raidaz4Life
07-25-2014, 08:37 AM
what did he do in the playoffs tho? lol if we're just talking regular season and stats here then its wilt, kareem, jordan, malone as the greatest players of alltime lol dude always came up short in the playoffs even when jordan retired he couldn't even get past hakeem and the rockets

Don't get me wrong I completely agree which is why he is here at number 12 though. I'm not arguing him top 5.

YAALREADYKNO
07-25-2014, 08:56 AM
Don't get me wrong I completely agree which is why he is here at number 12 though. I'm not arguing him top 5.

12 is too high for a guy like malone lol maybe somewhere in the top 20

ManRam
07-25-2014, 09:22 AM
we've been debating Moses vs. West but O is running away with the poll. Id love to see a behemoth from one of the O voters.

Yeah. It's a bit bizarre. O has the most votes, but almost no one has come out to actually explain their vote/argue for him in depth.

Raidaz4Life
07-25-2014, 10:36 AM
12 is too high for a guy like malone lol maybe somewhere in the top 20

Once again I disagree. His all time accomplishments are just too great to overlook. He failed to gain a championship sure but so did West. Barkley and Oscar both only have 1 as well so I don't view that as being a huge difference maker in regards to who should get the spot.

Raidaz4Life
07-25-2014, 10:37 AM
Yeah. It's a bit bizarre. O has the most votes, but almost no one has come out to actually explain their vote/argue for him in depth.

Probably because few people here are capable of putting together a case for him due to how young the average PSD poster is.

YAALREADYKNO
07-25-2014, 11:12 AM
Once again I disagree. His all time accomplishments are just too great to overlook. He failed to gain a championship sure but so did West. Barkley and Oscar both only have 1 as well so I don't view that as being a huge difference maker in regards to who should get the spot.

west has a championship tho and barkley never won one lol and when players are that close in comparison a championship is usually the deciding factor

NYKalltheway
07-25-2014, 11:13 AM
http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2013/11/22/hang-time-qa-oscar-robertson-on-turning-75-triple-doubles-and-g-o-a-t/

Tony_Starks
07-25-2014, 11:34 AM
Torn between the Logo and Dr J.

This list is a basketball abomination by the way......

Chronz
07-25-2014, 12:51 PM
Torn between the Logo and Dr J.

This list is a basketball abomination by the way......
Looks pretty good actually

valade16
07-25-2014, 01:15 PM
Looks pretty good actually

Agreed. I bet if everyone did their own top 15 list 95% of the players would be the same and 90% would be within 3 picks of where this list is.

I have a few problems (Magic being so high, Russell being so low) but overall it's a darn good list.