PDA

View Full Version : Can We Now Agree that LeBron is now getting more help than Kobe throughout careers?



P&GRealist
07-22-2014, 04:29 PM
Look at the help for the two:

Kobe going into his 19th yr: Prime Shaquille O'Neal, Prime Pau Gasol, oft injured young Andrew Bynum, Lamar Odom, past prime but very good for 1 yr Ron Artest, post surgery Dwight Howard, old Steve Nash, old Gary Payton, old Karl Malone.

LeBron going into just his 12th yr: prime Kevin Love, prime Dwyane Wade, prime Chris Bosh, old but still best 3 pt shooter in league Ray Allen, young Kyrie Irving who has yet to enter his prime, prime Larry Hughes, prime Mo Williams, old but still good defender Shane Battier, prime and oft injured 2012 Mike Miller, old Rashard Lewis, prime Anderson Varejao.



I guess you can argue that Kobe played with better 2nd and 3rd tier talents to complement his game, but LeBron has played with way more top heavy #1 option talents throughout their careers, and Bron has played 7 less seasons than Kobe.

jaydubb
07-22-2014, 04:31 PM
I can see your point and I really do agree to an extent, but lebron will never play with anyone nearly as dominant as shaq was in LA

ManRam
07-22-2014, 04:32 PM
Love will help level the playing field vs. Kobe and most of the other all-time greats. If he sticks in Cleveland, it's certainly possible that the gap narrows or completely disappears.

At this point in time? No. It simply isn't true at all. We're talking 4 years out of 11 with great help. That doesn't compare. Even so, prime Shaq was a whole different monster.

mightybosstone
07-22-2014, 04:33 PM
No. Kobe played with an unquestioned top 10-12 player of all-time in his prime for like 6-7 years. He also got 4-5 years of a prime Pau Gasol, a likely first ballot Hall of Famer. Lebron got 2 prime years of Wade and 2 past-prime years as well as four prime years of a borderline Hall of Famer in Bosh. It's not close at this point. Now if Irving and Love/Wiggins turn into Hall of Famer players in their careers and that core can stick around for another 4+ years then we can start having this conversation.

But at this point, it's not close argument and I'm not sure how you can prove otherwise.

sixers247
07-22-2014, 04:37 PM
Your obsession with LEbron is getting worrisome.

FlashBolt
07-22-2014, 04:39 PM
I love how the OP manages to make Kobe's teammates less appealing and LeBron's teammates more appealing by inserting phrases such as prime and post injury.

1) Prime Mo Williams? Now you're just looking to make the list in James favor. Mo Williams is not worth mentioning. Since James left, he's been a nobody.

2) Prime Wade and Bosh? I'm sorry but maybe you forgot the meaning of prime. Wade was not in his prime for 3/4 years and Bosh's prime IMO was in Toronto. He hasn't been the same player and the generalized statement of everyone having their prime at age 28-32 is completely subjective.

3) LeBron will never play with someone who is regarded as the best player and top 10. Heck, many people have Shaq as top 5 in GOAT. Certainly, you can make a distinct argument of Shaq>Kobe. Point is, Shaq was the better player and James never had a better player than Shaq... Not even close. Wade+Bosh doesn't even equate to half of what Shaq brought to the table.

nickdymez
07-22-2014, 04:40 PM
Obviously the people who hate kobe and love LeBron won't agree. But LeBron joining prime wade and prime bosh in a weak East equalled it out for me. Now going back to Cleveland with a prime love (probably) and about to enter prime kyrie, yea it's pretty even at this point.

FlashBolt
07-22-2014, 04:41 PM
Let's not forget about Ariza, Fisher, Horry, Rick Fox, and countless other players since we're naming Shane Battier... Lol

Minimal
07-22-2014, 04:41 PM
Look at the help for the two:

Kobe going into his 19th yr: Prime Shaquille O'Neal, Prime Pau Gasol, oft injured young Andrew Bynum, Lamar Odom, past prime but very good for 1 yr Ron Artest, post surgery Dwight Howard, old Steve Nash, old Gary Payton, old Karl Malone.

LeBron going into just his 12th yr: prime Kevin Love, prime Dwyane Wade, prime Chris Bosh, old but still best 3 pt shooter in league Ray Allen, young Kyrie Irving who has yet to enter his prime, prime Larry Hughes, prime Mo Williams, old but still good defender Shane Battier, prime and oft injured 2012 Mike Miller, old Rashard Lewis, prime Anderson Varejao.



I guess you can argue that Kobe played with better 2nd and 3rd tier talents to complement his game, but LeBron has played with way more top heavy #1 option talents throughout their careers, and Bron has played 7 less seasons than Kobe.
no, you didn't just do that, but kobe had prime kwame brown

FlashBolt
07-22-2014, 04:43 PM
Imagine LeBron and prime Shaq on the same team. I don't even want to think about the sheer dominance these two would create. Now, imagine Wade+Bosh+Kobe... Yeah, give me a break.

mightybosstone
07-22-2014, 04:44 PM
Obviously the people who hate kobe and love LeBron won't agree. But LeBron joining prime wade and prime bosh in a weak East equalled it out for me. Now going back to Cleveland with a prime love (probably) and about to enter prime kyrie, yea it's pretty even at this point.

Doesn't the amount of time he played with those players in their prime matter at all? Between Shaq and Pau, Kobe got a combined 10-11 years of prime first ballot Hall of Famers. Lebron, on the flip side, got probably 2 prime years of Wade and four prime years of Bosh, who still isn't the player that prime Gasol was. Also, those two guys played with Lebron at the same time.

I think it's possible we could be sitting here in five years and saying that Lebron had about as much help in his career as Kobe. But right now, I don't think it's remotely close.

Hawkeye15
07-22-2014, 04:47 PM
are you kidding me? LeBron's first 7 years, he had hot garbage on his team. He has now had 4 years (3 really, if we factor in Wade basically keeling over this season), in which he had a roster with enough help to win a championship.

By my count, LeBron needs to have championship level rosters around him for another 8 seasons to tie Kobe on this front.

Minimal
07-22-2014, 04:47 PM
if lebron played with shaq they would probably steamroll the league for 10 years.

nickdymez
07-22-2014, 04:49 PM
Doesn't the amount of time he played with those players in their prime matter at all? Between Shaq and Pau, Kobe got a combined 10-11 years of prime first ballot Hall of Famers. Lebron, on the flip side, got probably 2 prime years of Wade and four prime years of Bosh, who still isn't the player that prime Gasol was. Also, those two guys played with Lebron at the same time.

I think it's possible we could be sitting here in five years and saying that Lebron had about as much help in his career as Kobe. But right now, I don't think it's remotely close.
Everybody is entitled to an opinion. The competition plays a major part here too. The west was simply stacked. Shaq and kobe went up against:

Malones Jazz
Robinson and Duncan's spurs
Rasheeds Blazers
Webbers kings


lebron never played any team close to those at all.

NYMetros
07-22-2014, 04:51 PM
Kobe had more help. Shaq who is one of the best players of all time.

Then from 08-10 he had Pau Gasol, Odom, Ariza, Bynum, Artest in 2010. Loaded teams.

FlashBolt
07-22-2014, 04:54 PM
I think some people forget that Shaq was the Finals MVP and best player in the Lakers up till 2003... They probably think Shaq was equivalent to Chris Bosh.

Minimal
07-22-2014, 04:54 PM
Everybody is entitled to an opinion. The competition plays a major part here too. The west was simply stacked. Shaq and kobe went up against:

Malones Jazz
Robinson and Duncan's spurs
Rasheeds Blazers
Webbers kings


lebron never played any team close to those at all.
yeah never...
just celtics big 3, dwights magic, spurs, okc with durant, westbrook, harden, indiana pacers, bulls, yeah those were garbage teams.

nickdymez
07-22-2014, 04:56 PM
Lmao. LeBron lost to the big 3 when they were the big 3. Most of those other teams are in the West except the pacers who are young. Stop

mightybosstone
07-22-2014, 04:57 PM
Everybody is entitled to an opinion. The competition plays a major part here too. The west was simply stacked. Shaq and kobe went up against:

Malones Jazz
Robinson and Duncan's spurs
Rasheeds Blazers
Webbers kings

lebron never played any team close to those at all.

I agree that Kobe's Western Conference was a superior competition to Lebron's Eastern Conference, but you're not giving much credit to those early years of those KG, Pierce, Allen Celtics teams. Also, you're not giving much credit to the teams the Heat played in the Finals. The Spurs and Mavericks are probably two of the five best franchises of the last decade, and the Thunder have easily been one of the 3-5 best teams in the league over the last three seasons.

But since when is the competition up for debate in this thread? The thread isn't asking about the level of competition the two players faced. It's asking whether Lebron and Kobe had similar help on the court in their careers.

5ass
07-22-2014, 04:58 PM
No.

mngopher35
07-22-2014, 05:00 PM
Kobe played with prime Shaq for 8 years while Lebron spent his first 7 with best players being big Z and Mo Williams over the span and Mike Brown as coach. Lebron had that type of help on Miami for 4 years so far though and it was in his prime. If Cleveland gets Love they will have a little more talent than the Kobe Gasol Lakers imo (which competed for like 5 years).

I think it makes it much more even when comparing their help but there is no way it is more for Lebron right now. Kobe has had like 13 years of great to very good talent on his teams (with Phil coaching) and Lebron is entering his 5th year of that "help". It could be by the end of his career but it would take some good moves from the cavs moving forward still.

FlashBolt
07-22-2014, 05:01 PM
Pau Gasol was a better player than Chris Bosh. Shaq undoubtedly outweighs everyone who LeBron played with. Is there even an argument? It's like naming a bunch of bench players compared to the Godlike figure and undoubtedly superior player in Shaq. No one in NBA history was as dominant as Shaq. You can say Wilt but we never really got to see him play against the best of the best. Shaq, we saw it and he dominated everyone. If I was building a team, I'd take Shaq third right after James and Jordan.

Mr_Jones
07-22-2014, 05:13 PM
ballsssssss

Tony_Starks
07-22-2014, 05:16 PM
Everybody is entitled to an opinion. The competition plays a major part here too. The west was simply stacked. Shaq and kobe went up against:

Malones Jazz
Robinson and Duncan's spurs
Rasheeds Blazers
Webbers kings


lebron never played any team close to those at all.

This point will get glossed over but it is very valid. People just look at Kobe/Shaq or Kobe/ Gasol but completely lose the fact they had to go through multiple contenders just to make the Finals.

If you look at the talent each played with but then factor in the competition they were going against it all balances out....

nickdymez
07-22-2014, 05:19 PM
This point will get glossed over but it is very valid. People just look at Kobe/Shaq or Kobe/ Gasol but completely lose the fact they had to go through multiple contenders just to make the Finals.

If you look at the talent each played with but then factor in the competition they were going against it all balances out....
Exactly. But the thing I see with LeBron fans is that they love to come up with excuses to validate their stance on him.

NoahH
07-22-2014, 05:20 PM
prime LARRY HUGHES...

Ok buddy

Jamiecballer
07-22-2014, 05:23 PM
Similar help, poorer fit(s)

IgglesFanInCO
07-22-2014, 05:25 PM
Obviously the people who hate kobe and love LeBron won't agree. But LeBron joining prime wade and prime bosh in a weak East equalled it out for me. Now going back to Cleveland with a prime love (probably) and about to enter prime kyrie, yea it's pretty even at this point.

Wait.... are you actually serious? This is sarcastic right?

NYMetros
07-22-2014, 05:26 PM
Also, no one's even factoring in Phil Jackson. The greatest coach in NBA history on your side for 11 years? My word.

It actually isn't even close.

bucketss
07-22-2014, 05:27 PM
kobe is the greatest no ?'s askd

nickdymez
07-22-2014, 05:27 PM
Wait.... are you actually serious? This is sarcastic right?
I'm dead serious why? You about to make an excuse?

nickdymez
07-22-2014, 05:28 PM
Kobe and Melo are despised on this board unlike anything I've ever seen

dnl123
07-22-2014, 05:31 PM
If that was prime Wade the last 4 years then I'm Miles Davis.

IgglesFanInCO
07-22-2014, 05:32 PM
look at the help for the two:

Kobe going into his 19th yr: Prime shaquille o'neal, prime pau gasol, prime andrew bynum, lamar odom, past prime but very good for 1 yr ron artest, dwight howard, old steve nash, old gary payton, old karl malone.

Lebron going into just his 12th yr: Prime kevin love(probably), not close to prime and oft-injured dwyane wade, chris bosh, old and borderline helpful ray allen, young kyrie irving who has yet to enter his prime, larry hughes, mo williams, old shane battier, oft injured mike miller, old rashard lewis, prime anderson varejao.

I guess you can argue that kobe played with better 2nd and 3rd tier talents to complement his game, but lebron has played with arguably more #1 option talents throughout their careers, but not even close to the overall talent level that kobe played with, and bron has played 7 less seasons than kobe.

fify

nastynice
07-22-2014, 05:33 PM
prime mo williams?? lol

Shaq was just an absolute beast like no other, a top 5 center of all time for SURE.

I will say this though, Lebron somehow or another, his game seems to not fit being able to play with other dominant players, whereas kobe's obviously does. Not sure what it means, but its hard to ignore how much worse lebron makes other great players around him. Him and Wade being a 1-2 punch was just some of the ugliest offense I've ever seen. I loved their skills as bball players, but it was just like iso one or the other, and go. Maybe some of that has more to do with Spoelstra than Lebron, I don't know.

And on the flip side of that, its also hard to ignore how much better he makes other role players around him. So far watching him in his career, it seems the best way to build a team with lebron is to put good role players around him, players like Horry, Tyson Chandler, etc. Players that just have a certain role, and fill that role.

Maybe my assessment is way off, I guess we'll really see here in cleveland now.

Shlumpledink
07-22-2014, 05:38 PM
You can add "played in the eastern conference" to the list of help received. Playing in the east is like playing in a 3-4 team conference every year. If Kobe's lakers had twice as many games against the east his winshares would go up, then we'd have all these young people talking about how his advanced metrics show how much better he is as a player, when really he is just playing against weaker teams more often

Sandman
07-22-2014, 05:50 PM
Look at the help for the two:

Kobe going into his 19th yr: Prime Shaquille O'Neal, Prime Pau Gasol, oft injured young Andrew Bynum, Lamar Odom, past prime but very good for 1 yr Ron Artest, post surgery Dwight Howard, old Steve Nash, old Gary Payton, old Karl Malone.

LeBron going into just his 12th yr: prime Kevin Love, prime Dwyane Wade, prime Chris Bosh, old but still best 3 pt shooter in league Ray Allen, young Kyrie Irving who has yet to enter his prime, prime Larry Hughes, prime Mo Williams, old but still good defender Shane Battier, prime and oft injured 2012 Mike Miller, old Rashard Lewis, prime Anderson Varejao.



I guess you can argue that Kobe played with better 2nd and 3rd tier talents to complement his game, but LeBron has played with way more top heavy #1 option talents throughout their careers, and Bron has played 7 less seasons than Kobe.
Sorting through the names here, but yeah, looks like Shaq didn't get nearly as much help as LeBron. His version of Wade was younger, but they won 1 title and it was on to the next. If Shaq hooks up with Wade earlier in Shaq's own career, they win 3 titles easily. LeBron also had the best help, in the form of Shaq himself, albeit at the tail end of his career when he was not achieving the Super-Shaq status he had in the late 90s-early 00s.

Shaq is amazing

Shaq

DR_1
07-22-2014, 05:52 PM
yeah never...
just celtics big 3, dwights magic, spurs, okc with durant, westbrook, harden, indiana pacers, bulls, yeah those were garbage teams.

They weren't close to the teams Kobe and Shaq beat, except for maybe the Bulls when Rose was 100%.

P&GRealist
07-22-2014, 05:55 PM
You Bron supporters are lucky I didn't include 'old yet 1 yr removed from all- star status' Shaq, and Big Ben version as well as post prime Antawn Jamison as Bron's past teammates.

bucketss
07-22-2014, 06:01 PM
You Bron supporters are lucky I didn't include 'old yet 1 yr removed from all- star status' Shaq, and Big Ben version as well as post prime Antawn Jamison as Bron's past teammates.

true.

btw ben wallace won the chip as the man in detroit(only all star so ill assume he was the man)

IKnowHoops
07-22-2014, 06:01 PM
Obviously the people who hate kobe and love LeBron won't agree. But LeBron joining prime wade and prime bosh in a weak East equalled it out for me. Now going back to Cleveland with a prime love (probably) and about to enter prime kyrie, yea it's pretty even at this point.

Its a big difference. Kobe has actually played with someone who was better than him 95% of the time. The most dominant physical force in NBA history. Until Lebron in his prime plays with someone who outplays him 95% of the time, he will have not had the help near the scale Kobe had. Lebron and Shaq would have been way to unfair.

Arch Stanton
07-22-2014, 06:04 PM
Kobe played with Optimus Prime and in his Prime too so no!

P&GRealist
07-22-2014, 06:07 PM
I don't know. I just think it would be more impressive is Bron can win a title with Wiggins rather than Love.

Tony_Starks
07-22-2014, 06:08 PM
It's funny how Shaq gets so much love when it's convenient to use it against Kobe. So 1 Shaq is better than the production of 2 allstars? That's not even logical.

And since he was so dominant how many titles did he get before Kobe? Or MVPs? D Wade missed games and got all the criticism in the world, what about when Shaq was routinely missing games? Getting foot surgery on "your time, not mine" and using the regular season to play himself into shape? What about him intentionally slacking on defense because "if the Big dog doesn't eat the house won't get guarded?"

Lets not engage in revisionist history, as great as Shaq was he was very flawed. Half the people on here claiming he was so dominant don't even have Shaq in their top 5....

apocalypse15
07-22-2014, 06:08 PM
How come front page of PSD says Love to Cavs a done deal?

archdevil84
07-22-2014, 06:09 PM
lol come on man. i've been watching the NBA for three years now and even i realise that list you made is nonsense. from what i'm hearing shaq alone equals to almost the entire list that lebron has maybe except for wade? Then you add in Prime Gasol and Howard after injury? Howard after injury was equal to bosh the last few years. Gasol can be compared to wade for impact. then you have a handfull of players kobe had and dont forget. Kobe played ALOT longer with those guys in their prime. If lebron and wade and bosh had played with each other from the beginning you would have a case but now?
also: Kobe played with prime Kwame brown. enough said

mike_noodles
07-22-2014, 06:12 PM
Shaq trumps everyone that LBJ has played with.

And if you're going to include guys like Miller, Battier, Varejao for Lebron then you gotta include all the role players that Kobe had like Fisher, Fox, Horry, etc. Plus Kobe had one of the best coaches ever whereas literally anyone could take Spo's spot and get the same results.

I Would say all in all that it's pretty even. If Love ends up coming and they play for 3 years together, then I would say Lebron has had more help.

Arch Stanton
07-22-2014, 06:15 PM
How come front page of PSD says Love to Cavs a done deal?

According to sources.

P&GRealist
07-22-2014, 06:24 PM
According to sources.

Chris Broussard sources?

ZamboniCub
07-22-2014, 06:46 PM
prime Larry Hughes

is that a thing?

Arch Stanton
07-22-2014, 06:48 PM
Chris Broussard sources?

Portland Maine sources.

IKnowHoops
07-22-2014, 06:50 PM
It's funny how Shaq gets so much love when it's convenient to use it against Kobe. So 1 Shaq is better than the production of 2 allstars? That's not even logical.

And since he was so dominant how many titles did he get before Kobe? Or MVPs? D Wade missed games and got all the criticism in the world, what about when Shaq was routinely missing games? Getting foot surgery on "your time, not mine" and using the regular season to play himself into shape? What about him intentionally slacking on defense because "if the Big dog doesn't eat the house won't get guarded?"

Lets not engage in revisionist history, as great as Shaq was he was very flawed. Half the people on here claiming he was so dominant don't even have Shaq in their top 5....

My top 3

Lebron
Mike
Shaq

I hold Shaq in high regard. The Shaq that Kobe played with is much more impactful than the Wade and Bosh that Bron played with. Shaq and any laker starter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Wade and Bosh, its not close common. Shaq was the best player on his team, not Kobe. Shaq won the 3 MVP's not Kobe. Shaq was MVP easily too because he was such an unbelievable force who's impression was felt the second he steps on the court. Its not close. I think Lebron would rather play with Prime Shaq than the Wade/Bosh combo he had.

THE MTL
07-22-2014, 07:16 PM
Prime Shaq is better than Wade and Bosh combined.

jerellh528
07-22-2014, 07:22 PM
kobes had shaq and pau, everyone else was a role player. Shaq for about 4 prime kobe years, pau was tail end of kobes prime.
lebron will have had 4 players that have lead a respective team themselves, wade, bosh, kyrie, love. All in lebrons prime.

bootypants
07-22-2014, 07:26 PM
Imagine LeBron and prime Shaq on the same team. I don't even want to think about the sheer dominance these two would create. Now, imagine Wade+Bosh+Kobe... Yeah, give me a break.

For some reason i feel Prime Kobe in the last 4 years with the Heat... go 4-0 in Finals.

And im a lebron > kobe person.

numba1CHANGsta
07-22-2014, 07:26 PM
MJ won 6 rings with less, Kobe won 5 rings with less, LeBron NEEDS at least 2 all-stars/superstars to at least make it to the Finals. MJ and Kobe only needed one.

L8kers4life
07-22-2014, 07:28 PM
My top 3

Lebron
Mike
Shaq

I hold Shaq in high regard. The Shaq that Kobe played with is much more impactful than the Wade and Bosh that Bron played with. Shaq and any laker starter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Wade and Bosh, its not close common. Shaq was the best player on his team, not Kobe. Shaq won the 3 MVP's not Kobe. Shaq was MVP easily too because he was such an unbelievable force who's impression was felt the second he steps on the court. Its not close. I think Lebron would rather play with Prime Shaq than the Wade/Bosh combo he had.



Watch out this guy knows hoops. Hey Hoops, Kobe wasn't in his prime when he played with Shaq, does this matter at all? The fact that Kobe played with Shaq from 18-24 means that Kobe was not in his Prime yet. And when Wade and Bosh and Lebron Teamed up they were all in their prime, just because Wade declined, and Bosh got relegated to a spot up shooter, that doesnt mean they wernt in their prime, you could argue that Lebron made Wade and Bosh both worse, because Lebron needs the ball to be effective. Also, Lebron played in the weakest conference in recent memory, so that equals this out a bit. Your making it out like OP does not have a legitimate question? You make it sound like Lebron has had no where near the help Kobe had, and that is laughable.

ThuglifeJ
07-22-2014, 07:30 PM
Can we agree that they both got way more help than Vince tmac and iverson?

Jus saying both get/got disturbing amounts of help

L8kers4life
07-22-2014, 07:32 PM
Can we agree that they both got way more help than Vince tmac and iverson?

Jus saying both get/got disturbing amounts of help

I agree, LOL

PurpleLynch
07-22-2014, 07:43 PM
I can see a point in your post,but Kobe played with Shaq. I still have to place him in my personal ranking because you have to consider a lot of things about him.What is sure is that he was so dominant in his prime that he reminded me of Chamberlain in his prime(even if Chamberlain defense was better imo). If Shaq had Kobe's work ethic and mind he would be ahead of Jordan and Kareem probably. But history is different,but still I consider him in my top 15. And Wade+Bosh are not in my top 15. So I think Lebron still have less help than Kobe career wise. But Lebron has at least 2 more year of elite bball and we'll see if Gilbert will add important pieces that will prove your point.
Also I might reconsider my opinion if Cavs land Love plus another good player,but right now Shaq trumps the competition.

bucketss
07-22-2014, 07:45 PM
Can we agree that they both got way more help than Vince tmac and iverson?

Jus saying both get/got disturbing amounts of help

tmac had the help but his ego couldn't let him play behind his more talented(at the time) cousin.

MagicBucsSox
07-22-2014, 07:45 PM
MJ won 6 rings with less, Kobe won 5 rings with less, LeBron NEEDS at least 2 all-stars/superstars to at least make it to the Finals. MJ and Kobe only needed one.

Less? Scottie Pippen is no longer a top 5 SF? Rodman was a bum? So what was Horace Grant a non reliable mid range all star? Armstrong never made all star? Harper was a scrub?

Jamiecballer
07-22-2014, 07:49 PM
Its not about how talented your teammates are. After the top 2 players (arguably 1) it's how well there talents support/complement yours.

To that end Kobe/Jordan had vastly superior support.

End thread.

P&GRealist
07-22-2014, 07:55 PM
Its not about how talented your teammates are. After the top 2 players (arguably 1) it's how well there talents support/complement yours.

To that end Kobe/Jordan had vastly superior support.

End thread.
I disagree. LeBron probably had the best available 3 pt shooters in the entire league at his disposal these last 4 yrs, and we all know how the sipping coffee, reading the newspaper and camping behind the 3pt line are the type of guys that have complimented LeBron the most throughout his career, even dating back to his first Cavs stint with Boobie, Mo, Parker, Moon, Pavlovic. And then in Miami with Ray, Shard, Miller, Battier, JamesJones, Chalmers, Bibby etc. having the plethora of 3 pt shooters on an annual basis to complement Bron's game has been the story of his career. Now he'll have Miller and Jones again with possibly Ray, Kmart, Barrea and now Love to camp behind and enjoy the view.

Jamiecballer
07-22-2014, 08:00 PM
I disagree. LeBron probably had the best available 3 pt shooters in the entire league at his disposal these last 4 yrs, and we all know how the sipping coffee, reading the newspaper and camping behind the 3pt line are the type of guys that have complimented LeBron the most throughout his career, even dating back to his first Cavs stint with Boobie, Mo, Parker, Moon, Pavlovic. And then in Miami with Ray, Shard, Miller, Battier, JamesJones, Chalmers, Bibby etc. having the plethora of 3 pt shooters on an annual basis to complement Bron's game has been the story of his career. Now he'll have Miller and Jones again with possibly Ray, Kmart, Barrea and now Love to camp behind and enjoy the view.
There are guys in the NBA who can hit 3's and don't suck at most everything else, you know.

beliges
07-22-2014, 08:00 PM
It is certainly reasonable to say that Lebron's Heat teams were more talented than any of Kobe's teams. Now with the Cavs, playing with Irving and either Wiggins/Love, he will surely surpass Kobe in terms of playing with talent. Kobe's 08-10 championship teams were far from stacked.

But as has been proven already, its not about the talent you play with, but rather its about your ability to win. Kobe has proven that at a level that only 3 or so players in the history of the league have been able to. Lebron is attempting to reach that level and came back to the Cavs to give him that opportunity.

ink
07-22-2014, 08:02 PM
The whole "help" discussion from either side shows just how disproportionate the credit is for these two. Neither did or can do squat alone and it's sad that fans have to waste so much energy arguing over this. Just shows that most people cant actually follow the game so they talk about stars all the time instead.

P&GRealist
07-22-2014, 08:05 PM
There are guys in the NBA who can hit 3's and don't suck at most everything else, you know.

Right, but then that means they would have to subjugate their games to accommodate to Bron, much like Bosh, Mo, Larry Hughes and to a certain extent Wade had to, and will probably see the same thing for Kyrie and to a certain extent Love. As great as Bron is, there are certain guys that simply become cogs in the LeBron offense.

TheMightyHumph
07-22-2014, 08:13 PM
Look at the help for the two:

Kobe going into his 19th yr: Prime Shaquille O'Neal, Prime Pau Gasol, oft injured young Andrew Bynum, Lamar Odom, past prime but very good for 1 yr Ron Artest, post surgery Dwight Howard, old Steve Nash, old Gary Payton, old Karl Malone.

LeBron going into just his 12th yr: prime Kevin Love, prime Dwyane Wade, prime Chris Bosh, old but still best 3 pt shooter in league Ray Allen, young Kyrie Irving who has yet to enter his prime, prime Larry Hughes, prime Mo Williams, old but still good defender Shane Battier, prime and oft injured 2012 Mike Miller, old Rashard Lewis, prime Anderson Varejao.



I guess you can argue that Kobe played with better 2nd and 3rd tier talents to complement his game, but LeBron has played with way more top heavy #1 option talents throughout their careers, and Bron has played 7 less seasons than Kobe.

Kobe had the Centers. Shaq, Bynum, Gasol.

TheIlladelph16
07-22-2014, 08:14 PM
No.

That's about all the answer this thread justifies.

Let's talk about this in 5 years when its an actual, legitimate discussion.

Sandman
07-22-2014, 08:33 PM
It's funny how Shaq gets so much love when it's convenient to use it against Kobe. So 1 Shaq is better than the production of 2 allstars? That's not even logical.

And since he was so dominant how many titles did he get before Kobe? Or MVPs? D Wade missed games and got all the criticism in the world, what about when Shaq was routinely missing games? Getting foot surgery on "your time, not mine" and using the regular season to play himself into shape? What about him intentionally slacking on defense because "if the Big dog doesn't eat the house won't get guarded?"

Lets not engage in revisionist history, as great as Shaq was he was very flawed. Half the people on here claiming he was so dominant don't even have Shaq in their top 5....

Sorry for being one of the trolls you are talking about, I just think it is funny how sensitive some Laker fans can be about Kobe's status in the greatest players of all time conversation.

Kobe's biggest flaw, and biggest strength, is his ego. This thread is about WHO HAS HAD MORE HELP? Kobe ran Shaq out of town. Kobe ran PHIL out of town and Phil took him back. He wanted to do it himself. This is a man who COULD NOT HELP HIMSELF.

I think Shaq, at his peak, was a better player than Kobe, at his peak. One of the things that makes Kobe great is the fact that he has been more or less consistent for 18 years. That doesn't take away from either player. Jordan and Pippen. LeBron going to South Beach. Every great Laker or Celtic. Why is it an insult that a player didnt do it himself?

The conversation itself is self serving. Its just like the people that called LeBron a loser in Cleveland. Just like the people that called Kobe a loser in between titles, labeling him a chucker because he won scoring titles on a bad team. An awful lot like the people that call Carmelo a loser now.

I think Shaq was better than Kobe for those 3 years. I don't think either one of them has those titles without the other. We saw what happened when LeBron had a team of misfits and when he had DWade and Bosh.

I think Cleveland, for LeBron, is like LA in 2008 after they traded for Gasol. LeBron is the top dog in Cleveland but he has a solid team with other all-stars. Wade & Bosh are like Kobe's Shaq years.

Kobe is one of 3 or 4 players in the NBA (the others being KD, Dirk and Carmelo) that can get off a clean shot in a telephone booth. LeBron is the most athletic player on the planet.

I would love to see them play in the finals or the playoffs. I don't think Kobe would get many shots off but I think he could foul him out.

THE MTL
07-22-2014, 08:37 PM
MJ won 6 rings with less, Kobe won 5 rings with less, LeBron NEEDS at least 2 all-stars/superstars to at least make it to the Finals. MJ and Kobe only needed one.

This is pure ignorance.

IKnowHoops
07-22-2014, 08:42 PM
I disagree. LeBron probably had the best available 3 pt shooters in the entire league at his disposal these last 4 yrs, and we all know how the sipping coffee, reading the newspaper and camping behind the 3pt line are the type of guys that have complimented LeBron the most throughout his career, even dating back to his first Cavs stint with Boobie, Mo, Parker, Moon, Pavlovic. And then in Miami with Ray, Shard, Miller, Battier, JamesJones, Chalmers, Bibby etc. having the plethora of 3 pt shooters on an annual basis to complement Bron's game has been the story of his career. Now he'll have Miller and Jones again with possibly Ray, Kmart, Barrea and now Love to camp behind and enjoy the view.

The 3 point shooters are only one phase of the game. Jordan had the best 3pt shooters, best rebounding, best on ball defender, best coaching.

thephoenixson28
07-22-2014, 08:44 PM
I would choose Kobes teams over LeBrons.

thephoenixson28
07-22-2014, 08:46 PM
MJ won 6 rings with less, Kobe won 5 rings with less, LeBron NEEDS at least 2 all-stars/superstars to at least make it to the Finals. MJ and Kobe only needed one.
You have been watching too much Skip Bayless

Jamiecballer
07-22-2014, 08:51 PM
Right, but then that means they would have to subjugate their games to accommodate to Bron, much like Bosh, Mo, Larry Hughes and to a certain extent Wade had to, and will probably see the same thing for Kyrie and to a certain extent Love. As great as Bron is, there are certain guys that simply become cogs in the LeBron offense.
It makes sense for this reason to build a Lebron supporting cast that centered on defense. Imagine him with a roster similar to Iverson's 2000-01 roster. Sadly the fallacy of "the more firepower the better" extends to NBA front offices.

numba1CHANGsta
07-22-2014, 09:04 PM
This is pure ignorance.

get off LeBrons nutz already

RowBTrice
07-22-2014, 09:08 PM
Baby bron bron is overrated. He relies on way too much help to win championships.

shep33
07-22-2014, 09:28 PM
One thing I'd say is that Kobe by far has played with better competition throughout his career. LBJ has been in the East his entire career, and arguably during an era where its competition is the weakest its ever been

Raps08-09 Champ
07-22-2014, 10:04 PM
Kobe played with a top 7 and top 50 player all time.

Even then, they were pretty loaded. Kobe was with a top 3 player ATM in Shaq and then had a stacked roster from 08-10 or so. Lebron's only had that stretch for 4 years now.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-22-2014, 11:08 PM
Lebron has had plenty of help, Kobe is just able to beat the best teams in route to championships unlike Lebron.

LongIslandIcedZ
07-22-2014, 11:09 PM
They both had a ton of help en route to their respective championships

Bostonjorge
07-22-2014, 11:13 PM
Shaq at his peak was better or had a bigger impact then kobe, James and Jordan. So Shaq getting finals MVP's would of happened regardless of who he played with during those finals and the teams he played. If jordan or James did not take a second option role then it would of never worked.

Kobe as a second option still put up superstar numbers for 6 years. Some of the best seasons for any player ever. Something wade could never do. 1st year in Miami James was the second option or a 1a with prime wade and James could not play that role at all. Kobe is the only player to handle any role he is given and play like a true superstar.

As the 1st option kobe had less help easily. Kobe had gasol who kobe led great. Gasol was never better then any teams 1st or 2nd options players they played in the west playoffs . James had the best SG and PF in the whole east conference. Bosh and wade were better then %80 of the 1st and 2nd option players on the teams they played in the east.

HouRealCoach
07-22-2014, 11:16 PM
Prime Mo Williams? Prime Larry Hughes? Shane Battier? Hahahaha

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-22-2014, 11:27 PM
Baby bron bron is overrated. He relies on way too much help to win championships.winner

mngopher35
07-22-2014, 11:30 PM
Shaq at his peak was better or had a bigger impact then kobe, James and Jordan. So Shaq getting finals MVP's would of happened regardless of who he played with during those finals and the teams he played. If jordan or James did not take a second option role then it would of never worked.

Kobe as a second option still put up superstar numbers for 6 years. Some of the best seasons for any player ever. Something wade could never do. 1st year in Miami James was the second option or a 1a with prime wade and James could not play that role at all. Kobe is the only player to handle any role he is given and play like a true superstar.

As the 1st option kobe had less help easily. Kobe had gasol who kobe led great. Gasol was never better then any teams 1st or 2nd options players they played in the west playoffs . James had the best SG and PF in the whole east conference. Bosh and wade were better then %80 of the 1st and 2nd option players on the teams they played in the east.

Wow

Kyben36
07-22-2014, 11:31 PM
Shaq >>>>>>> Wade when he was in LA.

and Pau was probably only slightly bellow Wade when he was in his prime days in LA.

Kyrie is probably greater than pua, but we havnt seen yet how Kyrie performs with tallent around him.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-22-2014, 11:35 PM
They weren't close to the teams Kobe and Shaq beat, except for maybe the Bulls when Rose was 100%.

Eh, outside of San Antonio the second year and Sacto the third year of their three-peat, none of the teams Kobe-Shaq faced were all that great either.

Bostonjorge
07-22-2014, 11:56 PM
Wow

If gasol was better is wasn't by a huge margin. Gasol numbers the 2 years lakers won were close to KG and piece or Howard and Lewis finals teams.

The west teams best players in the 3 final runs. Gasol's best years.

Spurs Duncan, Parker and ginobli

Jazz Williams and boozer when boozer was demanding a max contract

Rockets tamc and Yao

Nuggets melo and billups or Iverson and melo

Okc Durant and Westbrook

Nash and amare

For sure the 1st options were better and if the second option was better it wasn't by a lot. There stats were good and most were better then gasol's.

PowerHouse
07-22-2014, 11:56 PM
Why does it always have to be Kobe vs Lebron?

Why cant we ask this question about two other superstars, i.e. who had more help Bird or Magic? Or who had more help, Duncan or Shaq?

mngopher35
07-23-2014, 12:03 AM
If gasol was better is wasn't by a huge margin. Gasol numbers the 2 years lakers won were close to KG and piece or Howard and Lewis finals teams.

The west teams best players in the 3 final runs. Gasol's best years.

Spurs Duncan, Parker and ginobli

Jazz Williams and boozer when boozer was demanding a max contract

Rockets tamc and Yao

Nuggets melo and billups or Iverson and melo

Okc Durant and Westbrook

Nash and amare

For sure the 1st options were better and if the second option was better it wasn't by a lot. There stats were good and most were better then gasol's.

Gasol was better than most of the 2nd best options at the time, not worse than all of them.

mrblisterdundee
07-23-2014, 01:21 AM
I can see your point and I really do agree to an extent, but lebron will never play with anyone nearly as dominant as shaq was in LA

The thread probably should have ended with the first response. O'Neal was the most valuable player on the team for those three championships, and Gasol in his prime was better than Bosh.

Nikeman
07-23-2014, 01:35 AM
This thread is a joke, Kobe had the most dominant offensive force on his team for 3 seasons, his ego killed his relationship with Shaq and probably cost the Lakers multiple more titles.

LeBron has always been the unquestioned best player on whichever team he has been on, for Kobe, 3 of his rings he was a second option. No, not 1a 1b, Kobe was option # 2.

Can we stop making these BS Kobe vs LeBron threads? No superstar has won by himself, they always had a dominant team..

Switch
07-23-2014, 01:52 AM
Eh, outside of San Antonio the second year and Sacto the third year of their three-peat, none of the teams Kobe-Shaq faced were all that great either.

Far better than what LeBron has ever faced.

Kashmir13579
07-23-2014, 01:53 AM
Can we all agree these threads are played out

Sadds The Gr8
07-23-2014, 01:54 AM
Lol @ prime Larry Hughes. The Kobe stans have come out in droves lately.