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ManRam
07-17-2014, 10:45 AM
Voting for #9 has concluded and PSD's Official #9 NBA Player of all time is....

Larry Bird

24.3 PPG | 10.0 RPG | 6.3 AST | .496% FG | 23.5 PER | 145.8 WS

Achievements:

12 time All-Star
3 NBA Championships
3 Time MVP
2 Time Finals MVP
9 Time All-NBA First Teamer
Rookie of the Year
Led in PER 1x

Voting

Larry Bird 46
Kobe Bryant 44
Bill Russell 3
Oscar Robertson 2
Dwyane Wade 2
David Robinson 1
Charles Barkley 1
Karl Malone 1
Kevin Garnett 0
Elgin Baylor 0
Moses Malone 0
John Stockton 0
Jerry West 0
Dirk Nowitzki 0
Julius Erving 0

The List:

1. Michael Jordan (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?868731-PSD-s-Official-1-Player-of-All-Time)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?868922-PSD-s-Official-2-NBA-Player-of-All-Time)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?869144-PSD-s-Official-3-Player-of-All-Time)
4. Magic Johnson (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?869307-PSD-s-Official-4-Player-of-All-Time)
5. Shaquille O'neal (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?869509-PSD-s-Official-5-NBA-Player-of-All-Time)
6. Tim Duncan (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?869984-PSD-s-Official-6-NBA-Player-of-All-Time)
7. Hakeem Olajuwan (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?870218-PSD-s-Official-7-Player-of-All-Time)
8. LeBron James (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?870493-PSD-s-Official-8-Player-of-All-Time&p=28768479#post28768479)
9. Larry Bird (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?870796-PSD-s-Official-9-Player-of-All-Time)

Please vote, explain and nominate...per the usual.

Rick Barry was added to the poll, because he was the only guy nominated. Your guy not on the list? It's your fault! ;)

The "Official" Top-50 list will go up sometime today or tomorrow.

Just a reminder, please keep things civil. This is all just for fun. If you're getting agitated to the point where you're just belittling or insulting people for their opinions, well...reevaluate things.

Also, 3 days seems to be working a bit better, so for the time being we'll stick with three days. If we have to speed things up later we can.

LAKERMANIA
07-17-2014, 11:43 AM
Wow.. Straight up robbery

ManningToTyree
07-17-2014, 11:46 AM
Finally Bird off the board.

Kobe is an easy pick here for me

FlashBolt
07-17-2014, 12:26 PM
Thank God Bill doesn't crack the top 10.

XpLiCiTT
07-17-2014, 12:30 PM
Just close this thread now...Kobe.

Hawkeye15
07-17-2014, 12:52 PM
Kobe should have gone 9th, but oh well. He has to go here, seriously

unleashthebeast
07-17-2014, 12:58 PM
Kobe probably wins here. An argument could be made for Bill Russell, but Kobe will win.

Nominate Isaiah Thomas

valade16
07-17-2014, 12:58 PM
Kobe should have gone 9th, but oh well. He has to go here, seriously

Do you think that for both peak and career achievement?

As in both players at the absolute peak of their abilities, you would take Kobe for your team over Bird?

valade16
07-17-2014, 01:03 PM
Can someone explain why Bill Russell hasn't gone yet and Magic went 4th when the arguments against Russell are the SAME arguments against Magic...

He had great teammates. Uh, Magic is the only guy to have played nearly his whole career with another guy in the top 5 of this list.

He was a one way player. Magic was a one way player. You cannot say Magic's defense was better than Russell's offense.

It's just inexplicable to me that there is this double standard. If Magic went in the back half of the top 10 or Russell went closer to Magic it'd make sense, but people saw the same deficiencies in both players arguments and made contradictory decisions.

Ridiculous.

NYKalltheway
07-17-2014, 01:08 PM
Protest vote with Oscar Robertson. Probably my last vote in these things. The list is absolutely hillarious btw.

Nominate Isiah Thomas seeing that he might end up #30 or something if he's not on that list by the next vote ..

Hawkeye15
07-17-2014, 01:13 PM
Do you think that for both peak and career achievement?

As in both players at the absolute peak of their abilities, you would take Kobe for your team over Bird?

I weigh a career as a career, not a peak. I rank Kobe's career better than Bird's. If I had to take a single year, I would take 85-86' Bird over any year Kobe produced.

Hawkeye15
07-17-2014, 01:14 PM
Can someone explain why Bill Russell hasn't gone yet and Magic went 4th when the arguments against Russell are the SAME arguments against Magic...

He had great teammates. Uh, Magic is the only guy to have played nearly his whole career with another guy in the top 5 of this list.

He was a one way player. Magic was a one way player. You cannot say Magic's defense was better than Russell's offense.

It's just inexplicable to me that there is this double standard. If Magic went in the back half of the top 10 or Russell went closer to Magic it'd make sense, but people saw the same deficiencies in both players arguments and made contradictory decisions.

Ridiculous.

Magic went too high, I agree. But I also have an issue with Russell going at this point.

Hawkeye15
07-17-2014, 01:15 PM
Protest vote with Oscar Robertson. Probably my last vote in these things. The list is absolutely hillarious btw.

Nominate Isiah Thomas seeing that he might end up #30 or something if he's not on that list by the next vote ..

do you honestly believe Zeke belongs anywhere near the top 10?

SLY WILLIAMS
07-17-2014, 01:23 PM
I can certainly understand a lot of the Kobe support based on longevity and the age of posters so I expect Kobe to win this vote in a route.

For me this is a tough call though because if I was starting a team tomorrow I would consider taking David Robinson before Kobe. I know Drob is not shown a lot of respect on PSD but the guy was a darn good player for the first 7 years of his career before his back injury. If you pick based on cumulative stuff like most games played, most points scored, and most anything else Kobe is the choice for sure but was he a better basketball player? I think I'm going to go Drob. I understand some Kobe fans will be upset by this pick. I do not mean any offense to Kobe. I'm just giving my own opinion. People are free to disagree with it. :)

Hawkeye15
07-17-2014, 01:24 PM
I can certainly understand a lot of the Kobe support based on longevity and the age of posters so I expect Kobe to win this vote in a route.

For me this is a tough call though because if I was starting a team tomorrow I would consider taking David Robinson before Kobe. I know Drob is not shown a lot of respect on PSD but the guy was a darn good player for the first 7 years of his career before his back injury. If you pick based on cumulative stuff like most games played, most points scored, and most anything else Kobe is the choice for sure but was he a better basketball player? I think I'm going to go Drob. I understand some Kobe fans will be upset by this pick. I do not mean any offense to Kobe. I'm just giving my own opinion. People are free to disagree with it. :)

Heresy!

ThuglifeJ
07-17-2014, 01:28 PM
Rofl Bron 8.



Serious question, can we end this one earlier? Just to speed up the process this one..if Kobe is like 55 and the next closest is 2 votes...can we just move onto 11?

SLY WILLIAMS
07-17-2014, 01:29 PM
Heresy!

LOL my opinions have been called much much worse so I'm okay with that. :)

Hawkeye15
07-17-2014, 01:31 PM
LOL my opinions have been called much much worse so I'm okay with that. :)

D-Rob was awesome. he will always get flack for not winning until Duncan came in, and for getting his *** whipped by Dream after he won his MVP, but he has a right to be here, no doubt.

LAKERMANIA
07-17-2014, 01:31 PM
Do you think that for both peak and career achievement?

As in both players at the absolute peak of their abilities, you would take Kobe for your team over Bird?

Yes without hesitation.

Hawkeye15
07-17-2014, 01:32 PM
Yes without hesitation.

85-86' Bird was better than Kobe ever has been. But yeah, career wise, Kobe should go over Bird, no doubt for me.

valade16
07-17-2014, 01:49 PM
Yes without hesitation.

Sorry, the username Lakermania makes it hard for me to believe that's a completely unbiased opinion.

valade16
07-17-2014, 01:50 PM
85-86' Bird was better than Kobe ever has been. But yeah, career wise, Kobe should go over Bird, no doubt for me.

I guess I'm more interested in ranking the best instead of the greatest.

A lot of people had more prestigious careers than Bill Walton or Tracy McGrady, but if you were starting a team they would probably be picked ahead of a great many that will be picked ahead of them in this.

Chronz
07-17-2014, 01:52 PM
Agreed with TLJ, this one wont need 3 hours much less 3 days. I expect Russ to dominate the next poll as well.

NYKalltheway
07-17-2014, 01:57 PM
do you honestly believe Zeke belongs anywhere near the top 10?

If no new player is entered in the polls, that's who the top 25 would consist of. If you think Isiah does not belong in the top 25 I'd be very surprised. And I think he has every right to be considered a top 15 player. We're not judging characters or personalities here...

LAKERMANIA
07-17-2014, 02:01 PM
Sorry, the username Lakermania makes it hard for me to believe that's a completely unbiased opinion.

Same goes for you in regards to your posting history.

Minimal
07-17-2014, 02:19 PM
what surprises me is that karl malone has zero votes. its interesting how rings are valued in this votings.
karl malone is a career 25/10/4 player. 2nd all time scorer, played 18 seasons in the nba, 2 time mvp, yet no votes even in top 10

valade16
07-17-2014, 02:19 PM
Same goes for you in regards to your posting history.

Lol you could not go back and find more than a handful of posts I have criticizing Kobe (and none outside of this all-time discussion).

In fact, I gave Bruno propa for defending Kobe on several occasions.

That was a fail on your part.

LAKERMANIA
07-17-2014, 02:22 PM
Lol you could not go back and find more than a handful of posts I have criticizing Kobe (and none outside of this all-time discussion).

In fact, I gave Bruno propa for defending Kobe on several occasions.

That was a fail on your part.

Interesting part is, even though you were talking Bird over Kobe last time around, you didn't even vote for Kobe this time around.

valade16
07-17-2014, 02:24 PM
Interesting part is, even though you were talking Bird over Kobe last time around, you didn't even vote for Kobe this time around.

Lol, I haven't voted for anyone on any of these threads so again the attempt to paint me as some Kobe hater is failing.

LAKERMANIA
07-17-2014, 02:46 PM
Lol, I haven't voted for anyone on any of these threads so again the attempt to paint me as some Kobe hater is failing.

You're the one who just looked at my username and said "Eh he doesn't know what he's talking about" so you have to prove that I'm a hater, not me.

Further, you should look through the last thread, you even mentioned that I made good posts. Also I went into more detail than you did in the debate. Check it.

Bruno
07-17-2014, 02:49 PM
this is the easiest decision since Jordan at #1.

Bruno
07-17-2014, 02:51 PM
Rofl Bron 8.



Serious question, can we end this one earlier? Just to speed up the process this one..if Kobe is like 55 and the next closest is 2 votes...can we just move onto 11?

Shocked PSD would vote LBJ at #8 in front of Bird and Kobe after a record breaking defeat in the finals. legitimately surprised. not saying theres zero argument but his decision to go back to Cleveland really made people forget. the timing of this poll should be counting against him, but it's not. thats good PR stuff right there.

Bruno
07-17-2014, 02:53 PM
I can certainly understand a lot of the Kobe support based on longevity and the age of posters so I expect Kobe to win this vote in a route.

For me this is a tough call though because if I was starting a team tomorrow I would consider taking David Robinson before Kobe. I know Drob is not shown a lot of respect on PSD but the guy was a darn good player for the first 7 years of his career before his back injury. If you pick based on cumulative stuff like most games played, most points scored, and most anything else Kobe is the choice for sure but was he a better basketball player? I think I'm going to go Drob. I understand some Kobe fans will be upset by this pick. I do not mean any offense to Kobe. I'm just giving my own opinion. People are free to disagree with it. :)

so you go with peak incarnation and ignore everything else?

valade16
07-17-2014, 02:57 PM
You're the one who just looked at my username and said "Eh he doesn't know what he's talking about" so you have to prove that I'm a hater, not me.

Further, you should look through the last thread, you even mentioned that I made good posts. Also I went into more detail than you did in the debate. Check it.

I never said you didn't know what you're talking about, I said you might be biased. There's a big difference.

You can be knowledgeable but susceptible to bias.

Bruno
07-17-2014, 02:59 PM
I never said you didn't know what you're talking about, I said you might be biased. There's a big difference.

You can be knowledgeable but susceptible to bias.

everyone is biased, just to what degree.

Bruno
07-17-2014, 03:00 PM
i think we should get russell off the board next. Moses is the only other big man in the debate at this point.

list gets too questionable if he's not near the top ten.

LAKERMANIA
07-17-2014, 03:01 PM
I never said you didn't know what you're talking about, I said you might be biased. There's a big difference.

You can be knowledgeable but susceptible to bias.

EVERYONE is susceptible to bias. Including you. Stop pretending like you are some holy knowledgeable NBA professional analyst. I went into more detail on why Kobe was better than Bird than you did about why Bird was better than Kobe. I went into more detail in the last thread than Bruno did so don't pretend like I have bias when you don't.

You can't just look at someone's username and blindly claim the person is susceptible to bias. It's not a crazy mentality to think Kobe was better than Bird 44 people thought so in the last thread!

KnicksorBust
07-17-2014, 03:11 PM
Kobe, Russell have to be the next two. I am glad you all had your little victory keeping Russell out of the top 10 but there is only so long you can ignore 5 league MVPs and 11 rings.

LAKERMANIA
07-17-2014, 03:15 PM
I can certainly understand a lot of the Kobe support based on longevity and the age of posters so I expect Kobe to win this vote in a route.

For me this is a tough call though because if I was starting a team tomorrow I would consider taking David Robinson before Kobe. I know Drob is not shown a lot of respect on PSD but the guy was a darn good player for the first 7 years of his career before his back injury. If you pick based on cumulative stuff like most games played, most points scored, and most anything else Kobe is the choice for sure but was he a better basketball player? I think I'm going to go Drob. I understand some Kobe fans will be upset by this pick. I do not mean any offense to Kobe. I'm just giving my own opinion. People are free to disagree with it. :)

Even though it made me upset, at least there is an argument regarding Bird over Kobe even though I disagree with it.

But David ****ing Robinson?

Jesus Christ.

LAKERMANIA
07-17-2014, 03:31 PM
I can certainly understand a lot of the Kobe support based on longevity and the age of posters so I expect Kobe to win this vote in a route.

For me this is a tough call though because if I was starting a team tomorrow I would consider taking David Robinson before Kobe. I know Drob is not shown a lot of respect on PSD but the guy was a darn good player for the first 7 years of his career before his back injury. If you pick based on cumulative stuff like most games played, most points scored, and most anything else Kobe is the choice for sure but was he a better basketball player? I think I'm going to go Drob. I understand some Kobe fans will be upset by this pick. I do not mean any offense to Kobe. I'm just giving my own opinion. People are free to disagree with it. :)
So you take into account peak and who to start a team with and you don't take into account anything else?

Raps18-19 Champ
07-17-2014, 03:54 PM
Easy

RocketLoc80
07-17-2014, 04:07 PM
Shocked PSD would vote LBJ at #8 in front of Bird and Kobe after a record breaking defeat in the finals. legitimately surprised. not saying theres zero argument but his decision to go back to Cleveland really made people forget. the timing of this poll should be counting against him, but it's not. thats good PR stuff right there.

So tell me the reasons why LBJ is not a top 10 player? Enlighten me

XpLiCiTT
07-17-2014, 04:09 PM
Speaking of Bill Russell, he just collapsed and was taken to the hospital.

http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/11229200/bill-russell-hospitalized-collapse-nevada

SLY WILLIAMS
07-17-2014, 04:21 PM
so you go with peak incarnation and ignore everything else?

I do not ignore anything. If a player plays 10 years and another player plays 15 years I will give the 15 year player the edge if it is a tie but I will not say player B is better than player A just because he played longer.

I'm looking for who were the very best players.

Drob: 21.1ppg-10.6rpg-2.5apg-3.0bpg-1.4spg-26.2PER
Kobe: 25.5ppg-5.3rpg-4.8apg-0.5bpg-1.5spg-23.4PER

Was Kobe on his own a better player than Drob? That is for each person to decide.



Even though it made me upset, at least there is an argument regarding Bird over Kobe even though I disagree with it.

But David ****ing Robinson?

Jesus Christ.

I'm just giving my opinion. I'm sorry you are upset.

So you take into account peak and who to start a team with and you don't take into account anything else?

If 7-9 years is a players peak than yes. I personally consider a players peak as their best season or best 2 seasons not 7-9 seasons. Stat compilation over 18 seasons is nice but it does not make a player better than another player in my view. Lots of centers played longer than Drob and have more points rebounds etc for their careers but does that make them a better player?

Bos_Sports4Life
07-17-2014, 04:27 PM
How in the world isn't Russell top 5?

His defense was BEYOND insane...


YR Drtg Rank Diff from League Avg. Diff from 2nd place
1956 90.4 6/8 -1.5
--------------------------------------------------------
1957 82.4 1/8 4.8 2.5
1958 82.0 1/8 5.2 3.9
1959 83.0 1/8 5.8 4.4
1960 83.9 1/8 6.2 1.8
1961 83.0 1/8 8.2 4.6
1962 84.3 1/8 8.7 6.3
1963 86.6 1/9 9.0 6.1
1964 82.7 1/9 11.5 5.6
1965 83.1 1/9 9.9 8.1
1966 87.3 1/9 7.1 4.0
1967 90.8 1/10 4.9 1.7
1968 92.0 2/12 4.6 -
1969 88.4 1/14 6.8 2.8
------------------------------------------------------------
1970 98.5 7/16 0.6 -

*1956 (the yr before Russell)

* 1957 (the yr after Russell)

(1) The Celtics led the league in defense in 12 of Russells' 13 years

(2) From 1958-1966 they dominated the league defensively like no team I can find for a 9 year period

(3) From 1961-1965 the ran off 5 consecutive historically dominant seasons. Look at those numbers.

(4) Before Russell they were a bottom defensive team and immediately jumped 6.3 relative points and 8.0 raw points to the top.

(5) After Russell they dropped to the middle of the pack, losing 6.2 relative points and 10.1 raw points.

According to Neil's method at B-R, who is slightly underestimating Boston's pace relative to the simple method (because he's assuming fewer turnovers are in play), those uber-dominant Celtics teams are the 3rd, 5th, 6th, 8th and 14th best defensive teams of all time, relative to competition. And there's nothing remotely comparable in NBA history for such sustained defensive dominance.


People than say...."Well he played with 10 other HOF'ers"...

57-58 * No title

Offensive Win shares outside of Russell-12.9

Russell's Defensive win shares-7.7



58-59

Offensive Win shares outside of Russell-11.8

Russell's Defensive win shares-8.2



59-60

Offensive Win shares outside of Russell-14.2

Russell's Defensive win shares- 8.9



60-61

Offensive Win shares outside of Russell-7.9

Russell's Defensive win shares- 11.3



61-62

Offensive Win shares outside of Russell-12.6

Russell's Defensive win shares-11.6



62-63

Offensive Win shares outside of Russell-11.0

Russell's Defensive win shares-12.6



63-64

Offensive Win shares outside of Russell-5.5

Russell's Defensive win shares-16.0



64-65

Offensive Win shares outside of Russell- 10.0

Russell's Defensive win shares- 14.4



65-66

Offensive Win shares outside of Russell-12

Russell's Defensive win shares-11.4



66-67 * No title

Offensive Win shares outside of Russell-22

Russell's Defensive win shares-9.2



67-68

Offensive Win shares outside of Russell-17.6

Russell's Defensive win shares-7.8



68-69

Offensive win shares outside of Russell- 14.4

Russels Dfensive win shares- 9.9



TOTALS from 1957-58 too 1968-1969



Russell Defensive win shares-129

Offensive win shares, outside of russell- 151.9



During their Last 10 title Runs- (excluding russells rookie yr as he played in olympics, total off)



Russell Defensive Win shares- 112.1

Offensive win shares, outside of Russell- 117.0



Now, The whole offense outside of Russell COMBINED for only 5 more win shares than Russell BY HIMSELF had on Defense. Russells offense from 57-58 too 68-89 accomplished a mere 12.65 offensive win shares a yr outside of Bill, and only 11.7 Offensive win shares during the last 10 title runs of that era.

Four of the title teams had LESS than 11 COMBINED offensive win shares outside of Bill.



Now, on too fg %/Attempts/ppg

LG RANK

1956-57: 1st in attempts/4th in %/1st in ppg

1957-58: 1st in attempts/3rd in %/2nd in ppg

1958-59:1st in attempts/4th in %/1st in ppg

1959-60:1st in attempts/3rd in %/1st in ppg

1960-61:1st in attempts/8th in %/2nd in ppg

(Up until this time, only 8 teams in nba)

- As u'll notice, the celtics avg finnish in % is 4.4/8, including dead LAST in 1960. Bill had some Great offensive players huh? Or what about Average?



* As of now, there's 9 teams

1961-62:1st in attempts/5th in %/3rd in ppg

62-63: 1st in attempts/9th in %/3rd in ppg

63-64: 1st in attempts/9th in %/2nd in ppg

64-65: 1st in attempts/8th in %/3rd in ppg

65-66:3rd in attempts/8th in %/7th in ppg

- As you see, The Celtics finished dead last TWICE MORE in FG % and finishing 8th out of 9 2 times, in this 5 yr. stretch they finished on avg of 7.8/9 teams in %, that's not close too AVERAGE, Still thinking he played with sooo many greats??



* As of now, there's 10 teams

66-67: 6th in attempts/4th in %/4th in ppg

* There are 12 teams now

67-68: 7th in attempts/7th in fg %/8th in ppg

* There are 14 teams now

68-69: 3rd in attempts/9th in %/10th in ppg



Sooo, they were 4/10 , 7/12, 9/14 in these 3 in fg %



Now, If Bill russell REALLY had a great supporting cast, these numbers would be ALOT BETTER. The ONLY reason the celtics did soo good in ppg earlier on was becaus of shot attempts due too high paced basketball.

Boston was SO BAD in some of these yrs on offense, They finished DEAD LAST or 2nd too LAST in fg % 6 times. They won the NBA Title EVERY SINGLE ONE of those 6 yrs. Do you know why? A defense led my Bill Russell.

Boston's defense was the SOLE reason they won titles, and the defense outside of Russell? It was AVERAGE. The Boston Celtics Defense pre/post Russell was avg, during russells 13 yrs? It LEG THE LEAGUE and in some years...Led the league by a very wide Margin.

Few other Notes

* Russell is the ONLY member of those 11 title teams during that 13 yr stretch

* The 2 longest losing streaks of that whole era, was when Russell went down with injury

* The Celtics went from Winning there 11th title in 13 yrs in '69 to missing the playoffs the following year.

* What did Russell do when it mattered? He was a perfect 11-0 In deciding games (10-0 in game 7's, 1-0 in game 5).

But yes....THIS GUY is falling to barely inside the top 10? its a SHAME!


As for Wilt beating him out? Some SOLID quotes...

"I don't want to rap Wilt because I believe only Russell was better, and i really respect what Wilt did. But I have to say he wouldn't adjust to you, You had to adjust to him"- Jerry West


"Wilt was too consumed with records: being the first to lead the league in assists, or to set a record for field goal %. He'd accomplish one goal, than go on to another. Russell only asked one question: 'What can I do to make us win?"- Jerry Lucas


Wilt Chamberlain (in.Wilt): To Bill [Russell] every game一every championship game一was a challenge, a test to his manhood. He took the game so seriously that he threw up in the locker room before almost every game. But I tend to look at basketball as a game, not a life or death struggle. I dont need scoring titles or championships to prove that Im a man. There are too many other beautiful things in life一food, cars,girls, friends, the beach, freedom一to get that emotionally wrapped up in basketball. I think Bill knew I felt that way, and l think he both envied and resented my attitude. On the one hand, I think he wished he could learn to take things easier, too; on the other hand, I think he may have felt that with my natural ability and willingness to work hard, my teams could have won an NBA championship every year if l was as totally com-mitted to victory as he was. . .. I wish I had won all those championships,but I really think I grew more as a man in defeat than Russell did in vic-tory.

"The difference between Russell and Wilt was this: Russell would ask, 'What do I need to do to make my teammates better?' Then he'd do it. Wilt honestly thought the best way for his team to win was for him to be in the best possible setting. He'd ask, 'What's the best situation for me?' ----Butch van Breda Kollf

XpLiCiTT
07-17-2014, 04:29 PM
I do not ignore anything. If a player plays 10 years and another player plays 15 years I will give the 15 year player the edge if it is a tie but I will not say player B is better than player A just because he played longer. I'm looking for who were the very best players.

I couldn't agree more with this. Nobody on here seems to have that mentality.

However; David Robinson over Kobe Bryant? C'mon man, its not even close.

Bos_Sports4Life
07-17-2014, 04:40 PM
as for Bird/Kobe..I'd probably pick bird. Not to be a homer because I'd pick several lakers over bird (Including Magic).

The thing that bothered me about Kobe? He seemed to have an obsession at being "the man" and getting the attention. With a guy like Bird? I don't think he would have cared if he happened to play with a better player who got more of the limelight.

LAKERMANIA
07-17-2014, 05:04 PM
If 7-9 years is a players peak than yes. I personally consider a players peak as their best season or best 2 seasons not 7-9 seasons. Stat compilation over 18 seasons is nice but it does not make a player better than another player in my view. Lots of centers played longer than Drob and have more points rebounds etc for their careers but does that make them a better player?
But what about when a player consistently put up superstar type numbers over an extended period of time like Kobe has? Doesn't that make it remarkable that someone like Kobe can still put up that kind of numbers over an extended period of time?

IF you were to start a team and picked Kobe, you would have over 16 years of a very good Kobe Bryant to build around. 16 years!

Even Kobe in his 18th year before the achilles injury was putting up over 25 a game! To me the fact that you can be that good for that long has to count for something.

It's not just "playing longer", it's playing longer at an elite level.

SLY WILLIAMS
07-17-2014, 06:01 PM
I couldn't agree more with this. Nobody on here seems to have that mentality.

However; David Robinson over Kobe Bryant? C'mon man, its not even close.

Lets go with the hypothesis that I'm crazy for a moment. Since there are around 500 Kobe fans on this site and only around 10 Spurs fans please give me a moment to play "Devils Advocate".

We both agreed that this should be about how great a player was not how long they played.

So do you think Kobe was so much greater than Drob,

Because Kobe was a more efficient offensive player?
Because Kobe was a better defensive player?
Because Kobe was a better teammate?

If you can let me know why Kobe was so much better as a basketball player.


But what about when a player consistently put up superstar type numbers over an extended period of time like Kobe has? Doesn't that make it remarkable that someone like Kobe can still put up that kind of numbers over an extended period of time?

IF you were to start a team and picked Kobe, you would have over 16 years of a very good Kobe Bryant to build around. 16 years!

Even Kobe in his 18th year before the achilles injury was putting up over 25 a game! To me the fact that you can be that good for that long has to count for something.

It's not just "playing longer", it's playing longer at an elite level.

Yes putting up strong numbers for 16 years is remarkable and a great accomplishment but does that mean a player is better at basketball than another player. I'm not sure if you follow hockey but there are two Hall Of Fame players that this question reminds me of. There was a guy named Bobby Orr that was the greatest player anyone had seen for around 7 full seasons before injuries basically took him out of the game. There is another guy named Teamu Selane who people describe as "remarkable" because he has played at great level for so long (around 22 years). Teamu has a huge amount of fans and respect all over the world but nobody would ever say he was better than Bobby Orr. Now this comparison is not supposed to be a apples to apples comparison. I'm just trying to explain my way of thinking. I'm just looking for the best player. 16 seasons vs 10 seasons will not play a major role for me unless it was a tie in the players abilities.

Lucky.
07-17-2014, 06:21 PM
You can't just look at someone's username and blindly claim the person is susceptible to bias. It's not a crazy mentality to think Kobe was better than Bird 44 people thought so in the last thread!

Regardless of where Kobe deserves to go, this argument right here is flawed. If I recall, the majority of the people who voted for Kobe at #9 were also Lakers fans (again, regardless of where he deserves to be, right or wrong, it's flawed considering what you replied to in this quote).

TheIlladelph16
07-17-2014, 07:03 PM
Kobe... Probably should have gone on the last pick. This is an easy one.

Ebbs
07-17-2014, 07:34 PM
Nominate Steve Nash

Bos_Sports4Life
07-17-2014, 07:36 PM
Peak vs Longevity will always be pretty subjective and I list them depending on the question asked.

If people asked me who was better or who I'd start on my all time team? I'd go more so with peak/prime seasons. All time list? I'd value longevity a bit more.

As for Drob/Kobe...I'd probably lean towards Kobe HOWEVER imo if Robinson played in this current era? He'd be thought of a bit higher. The fact he played in the golden era of centers and STILL dominated as much as he did? pretty impressive.

Does anyone remember when Old Robison was paired up with Duncan? They were as dominant as I have ever seen discounting the '96 bulls.

FlashBolt
07-17-2014, 08:30 PM
Peak vs Longevity will always be pretty subjective and I list them depending on the question asked.

If people asked me who was better or who I'd start on my all time team? I'd go more so with peak/prime seasons. All time list? I'd value longevity a bit more.

As for Drob/Kobe...I'd probably lean towards Kobe HOWEVER imo if Robinson played in this current era? He'd be thought of a bit higher. The fact he played in the golden era of centers and STILL dominated as much as he did? pretty impressive.

Does anyone remember when Old Robison was paired up with Duncan? They were as dominant as I have ever seen discounting the '96 bulls.

The way the game is played today wouldn't benefit Robinson as much. Way too many shooting going on these days. Centers aren't expected to do as much as they were expected to.

hidalgo
07-17-2014, 09:22 PM
Bill Russell

can't leave the guy that won the most titles out of the top 10

Bruno
07-17-2014, 09:27 PM
So tell me the reasons why LBJ is not a top 10 player? Enlighten me

for the same reasons I criticized magic and bird, longevity. LBJs not there yet all you guys are already giving him credit for a full career.

Pablonovi
07-17-2014, 10:21 PM
Kobe (who I have at GOAT #6-8, in a virtual tie with Shaq and TD)
Then Jerry West, (who I have at GOAT #9)
Then Dr. J. (who I have at GOAT #10; perhaps nobody played better than he did, during his ABA days; and, imo, he was better than Bird in the early 1980's too).

Then I have: 11-15: Big "O", Stockton, Karl Malone, Bird, Hakeem
Then I have: 16-20: Russell, Baylor, DRob, KG, Rick Barry

Pablonovi
07-17-2014, 10:54 PM
Here's my/Pablo's GOAT Top 25 (and a bit more)
1. KAJ (greatest PEAK *, greatest-longest PRIME, greatest-by-far shot=Sky Hook, Most Play-Offs, Most Finals; greatest Center and DOMINATED more of the All-Time Great Centers than any other). **

2. Magic (most "transferrable" guy and greatest TEAM-mate. By transferrable I mean, he swap him for another team's same position-guy. With the possible exception of the John Stockton led Jazz, I believe that you swap Magic into any other team in history and that team is DECIDEDLY BETTER. I don't believe you can say that about any other player. Likewise, the gap between Magic as PG#1 and whoever you have as PG#3 (I have J. Kidd, btw) IS ABSOLUTELY HUMONGOUS. I do not believe that the gap between #1 and #3 at any other position is even very big much less HUMONGOUS.

3. MJ (greatest "assassin" - if he hadn' of QUIT, TWICE, for 4.8 possibly PRIME Years ...)

4. Wilt (most era-dominant player ever (other than Mikan; but he played in a very weak era so I don't count that). Absolutely DOMINATED the universally-proclaimed Greatest Defensive Player ever - Bill Russell. imo, Wilt was a Once-In-A-Century FREAK Of Nature, THE best ATHLETE (ALL SPORTS) Of The Entire 20th Century)

5. LeBron (he's already got 10 Great Seasons (as many as most of the GOAT Top Guys; and a PEAK, still ongoing, that is All-Time Top 5. He's, imo, THE MOST COMPLETE PLAYER EVER - and still improving)

6-8: Kobe (Only KAJ had a longer/greater PRIME, only Duncan & Karl Malone had equal Primes)
6-8: Shaq (He goes ahead of TD because he just dominated TD-DRob head-to-head)
6-8: Duncan (Ultimate TEAM-mate, does all that's asked of him. GREAT PRIME.)
N.B. imo, If Shaq stays with Kobe, they win 6-7 Chips In 10 Years, Shaq with 4 fmvp's Kobe with the rest; and they are 1a and 1b GOAT. Boy did Shaq, the Lakers FO (and less so: Kobe) blow that!

9. Jerry West (Unlimited range, great D, super-Play-Off Performer, incredible Finals Player)
10. Dr. J. (perhaps had the greatest "handles" of all-time on Offense; perhaps his ABA years were THE greatest Offensive display ever; then in the NBA he outplayed, imo, Bird)

WITHIN Each Following Group: Any Order
11-15: Big "O", Bird, Stocton, Karl Malone, Hakeem
16-20: Russell (his awful shooting percent puts him this low); Baylor, KG, DRob, Rick Barry
21-25: Barkley, Moses Malone; Dirk Nowitzki; Gervin; J.Kidd
26-30: Dwyane Wade ; Hondo; Pettit; Cousy; DHoward;

31-50: Frazier, Payton, KD, Gilmore, Hayes, Dolph Schayes, Chris Paul, Cunningham, Mel Daniels (ABA), Ewing, Nash, Pippen, Tiny Archibald, Hal Greer, Spencer Haywood, Jerry Lucas, Isiah Thomas, TMac, Willis Reed, Drexler

51-75:
Dan Issel, George McGinnis, AI, Mack Calvin (ABA), Bill Sharman, Nique, Grant Hill, Moncrief, Amar'e, Pistol Pete, Connie Hawkins, George Mikan, Tim Hardaway, Chris Webber, Bernard King, Dave Bing, David Thompson, Donnie Freeman (ABA), Jimmy Jones (ABA), Larry Jones (ABA), Kevin Johnson, Louie Dampier (ABA), Tommy Heinsohn, Chris Mullin, Marques Johnson

* KAJ: Greatest PEAK: 1-Year, 3-Year, 5-Year
** Most Clutch Shooter = KAJ, he hit that Sky Hook at about 56% accuracy - and it was virtually un-blockable - nobody else comes close to topping 50% on Clutch Shots (with double, even triple teams coming at them).

Pablonovi
07-17-2014, 11:02 PM
Pablo's Review Of PSD's COLLECTIVE Efforts So Far On The NBA GOAT List
Having been a "rabid" NBA fan for 55+ years, my main hope was/is that we COLLECTIVELY come as close as possible to the Best Possible GOAT List.

Within in that I had THREE MAIN CONCERNS:

A) That the NBA GOAT Top Five contain these 4 guys (in any order): KAJ, Magic, MJ, Wilt;
The reason I feel this way, and quite strongly, is that, imo, ONLY These 4 Guys Have Legitimate Arguments For Being GOAT #1; and all of them have super-strong cases for being in the GOAT Top 5.

So, when I look at our/PSD's COLLECTIVE NBA GOAT List: I see that KAJ, Magic, MJ and Wilt ARE ALL in our Top 5 (actually in our Top 4). I think this is excellent!

We've done a GREAT JOB on THE most important aspect of the list: The very top 4 Guys!
I am so pleased with this, our, result, that Ill put aside any discussion of why I feel pretty strongly that KAJ should have been GOAT #1. Again, WE DID GREAT!

B) That Bill Russell NOT be in the NBA GOAT Top 10 (because I consider this the greatest and longest-running error in virtually all NBA GOAT Lists. (Please keep in mind, I did see and did love Bill Russell, as a Great Player, as a Phenomenal Athlete, and a tremendously dignified MAN!)
Seeing as Bird just took 9th Place (in a nail-bitter over Kobe); and assuming Kobe now takes 10th place; this will put Bill Russell OUTSIDE the GOAT Top 10: I think this is excellent!
Imo, We're doing a GREAT JOB on THE #1 biggest "failure" of virtually ALL previous lists!

C) FAIR BALANCE BETWEEN POSITIONS AND BETWEEN DECADES: My 3rd Big Concern (and only remaining Big one for our continuing "work" (voting and debate/discussion) is the question of BALANCE:

i) POSITIONAL BALANCE: That players other than Centers, get an appropriate number of spots in our GOAT Top 25 (right now our GOAT Top 10 has 4 Centers in it: KAJ, Wilt, Shaq & Hakeem; and Bill Russell, DRob and other Great Centers will certainly get into our GOAT Top 20. In other words, there ARE 5 separate positions that play simultaneously in the NBA: PG, SG, SF, PF & C - let's try NOT TO UNDERESTIMATE THE NON-CENTERS, please.

ii) DECADAL BALANCE:
(just for your information, I include my own choices for the top guys in order for each "Decade"):


It is my position that in our GOAT Top 30, there should be ABOUT 5 guys from each decade:

60's 8: Big O45, Baylor45, Wilt41, Jerry West36, Russell 31;++: Pettit28, Greer21, Lucas21

70's 9: KAJ39,DrJ33,Barry33,Havlicek29,Frazier26+Gilmore25 ,Hayes24,Haywood21,McGinnis21(West20)

[70s (3 more): Archibald18, Cunningham18, Mel Daniels 13]

80's 5: Bird45, Magic38, Moses Malone27, (KAJ26, DrJ23), Thomas21, Gervin18, (MJ18, Hakeem18)

90's 9: KMalone50, MJ35, DRob26, Barkley24, Stockton22;++: Hakeem21, Pippen21, Payton17, Ewing17

00's 9: Duncan44, Kobe41, Shaq35, Dirk29, KG29;++: Kidd23, (LBJ21), TMac19, AI19, Nash18

10's 8: LBJ25, KD25, (Kobe20), DHoward18, C.Paul 15;++: Griffin9, Parker9, Westbrook9, DWade8

pre-60's 2-3: Cousy17.3(+16=33.3), Schayes18(+6=24); [++: Mikan14.6]

If we end up NOT having about this, then, in my STRONG opinion, we've failed to accurately represent the NBA/ABA/NBA is all its/their full-depth and glory.
- - - -
Just As A Reminder, Here's What We Have So Far (and guessing that Kobe will be 10th):
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Magic Johnson
5. Shaquille O'neal
6. Tim Duncan
7. Hakeem Olajuwan
8. LeBron James
9. Larry Bird
10? Kobe Bryant

P.S. There's three things I forgot to explain about my "Decadal" Lists or Decade Top 5-10s:
a) The number following each guy is the number of Points I assigned him;

b) The guys in parentheses are there because they are also listed HIGHER in another decade. I just include them in a second decade to indicate that they were also Top 5-10 in that second decade as well.

c) The decimal points assigned to the 3 Pre-1960s players: Cousy, Schayes & Mikan are there because I've just "invented" a system to "Pro-Rating" pre-1960's players ...

i) For the period 1948-1959, "The Full-Mikan Era", each season gets rated at 50% value of post-1959 seasons. (Due to pre-full integration, and generally much weaker play). Additionally, I multiply that times the number of games played that season divided by 82 (because they played less than 82 games);

ii) For the period 1938-1947, the "Pre- Full-Mikan Period", each season gets rated at 25% the value of post 1959 seasons. And I apply the same games per season multiplier as in "i)" above.

P.P.S. Two more aspects I should describe:
iii) For Cousy & Schayes (in parenthesis) I've added to the PRE-1960s Points, the points they got post-1959. This had the affect of moving Cousy ahead of Schayes.

iv) The "+" or "++" signs are there to separate those I consider Decadal Top 5 players from the 6-10~ guys.

ricky recon
07-17-2014, 11:25 PM
This list is so bad.

Chronz
07-17-2014, 11:32 PM
Great list all things considered. You cant get past certain favorites but its a new perspective on the game that Im glad many share.

Pablonovi
07-17-2014, 11:42 PM
Great list all things considered. You cant get past certain favorites but its a new perspective on the game that Im glad many share.

Hey High Horse,
I agree!
My thinking is that, nobody's gonna have the exact same list; so the IMPORTANT THING is to be able to "live with" what I call "Ranges".

For example:
KAJ, Magic, MJ and Wilt in the Top 4 (regardless of order).
I've got Kobe #6-8; He's ending up #10 - that's close enough for me!
Below the GOAT Top 10, individual rankings matter a lot less (and less still the lower we go). So, I go with ranges there, bigger as we go lower.

As you say, "Great list all things considered"!

GREATNESS ONE
07-17-2014, 11:42 PM
Anybody but Kobe, he barely cracks the top 15. Never the best player in any season and is Per is crap. Anyone who watche his games would definitely know that.

DODGERS&LAKERS
07-18-2014, 12:29 AM
Anybody but Kobe, he barely cracks the top 15. Never the best player in any season and is Per is crap. Anyone who watche his games would definitely know that.

Definitely. Robinson here. Has higher PER and WS/48. /thread

NYKalltheway
07-18-2014, 03:54 AM
The top 10 has 4 active/recently retired players lol. Should be 2 at best (Shaq and arguably Duncan)

The NBA is not a league founded in 1980 you know.

PS: Listen to SLY, he knows what he's saying.

XpLiCiTT
07-18-2014, 04:23 AM
The top 10 has 4 active/recently retired players lol. Should be 2 at best (Shaq and arguably Duncan)

The NBA is not a league founded in 1980 you know.

PS: Listen to SLY, he knows what he's saying.

So because a certain player is active or recently retired, they can't/shouldn't be considered in the top 10? That makes so much sense.

todu82
07-18-2014, 08:38 AM
Bill Russell

NYKalltheway
07-18-2014, 08:59 AM
So because a certain player is active or recently retired, they can't/shouldn't be considered in the top 10? That makes so much sense.

Considering that the recent era has been one of the weakest it simply shows that there's a lot of bias towards modern players.

I'm pretty sure in 20-30 years the young fans will say that 2-3 players entering the NBA in the span of 2020-2023 will be top 10 of all time.

ThuglifeJ
07-18-2014, 09:59 AM
The top 10 has 4 active/recently retired players lol. Should be 2 at best (Shaq and arguably Duncan)

The NBA is not a league founded in 1980 you know.

PS: Listen to SLY, he knows what he's saying.

So because a certain player is active or recently retired, they can't/shouldn't be considered in the top 10? That makes so much sense.

Um. Yes? What if one got injured for rest of career, aka Bron? He wouldn't be top 10 then

nominate Jason Kidd

KnicksorBust
07-18-2014, 11:14 AM
The top 10 has 4 active/recently retired players lol. Should be 2 at best (Shaq and arguably Duncan)

The NBA is not a league founded in 1980 you know.

PS: Listen to SLY, he knows what he's saying.

Yeah because Kobe and LeBron's resumes don't warrant top 10. :rolleyes:

LAKERMANIA
07-18-2014, 11:40 AM
The top 10 has 4 active/recently retired players lol. Should be 2 at best (Shaq and arguably Duncan)

The NBA is not a league founded in 1980 you know.

PS: Listen to SLY, he knows what he's saying.
The league didn't start in 1980 but the modern day league started in 1980 imo, better competition, better players etc. If it were up to me there would be a permanent divide between the Pre merger NBA and Modern day NBA.

Pablonovi
07-18-2014, 12:19 PM
The league didn't start in 1980 but the modern day league started in 1980 imo, better competition, better players etc. If it were up to me there would be a permanent divide between the Pre merger NBA and Modern day NBA.

Hey LAKERMANIA,
I think I understand your sentiment; but let me suggest a different perspective for you to "try on".

For me, the Modern Era Of The NBA began in 1960, when Wilt joined the League and soon-afterwards it was fully integrated. My "proof" for this assertion is that, I feel quite confident that the best 5 players of the 60's:
Wilt, West, Big "O", Baylor and Russell could all play adequately in any other era; and, with the exception of Russ (who's shooting was horrendous), the other 4 would be Top 1-3 Players at their positions in any era.

Therefore, imo, ESSENTIALLY, since 1960, the NBA has NOT changed QUALITATIVELY, especially concerning the best players from each decade.

Having been a "rabid" NBA fan for 55+ years, my experience viewing it (and studying intensely about it) is that the game is constantly evolving. Some aspects of the game were stronger earlier, others are stronger now. For example, the people who claim that MJ's era (late 80s, thru the 90s) was THE toughest era, just don't have any idea how wrong they are. The 60's were WAY TOUGHER. So tough that after just his very first year, Wilt seriously considered quitting! Why would that once-in-a-century FREAK of nature consider that? Because he was getting beat-the-hell out of down low. (I watched it, this is NO exaggeration. The game was already VERY ROUGH back then; but he was so strong, that the League allowed the other players to be extra-rough with him. (It also was a major factor that he never allowed himself to lose his temper - he knew if he even touched guys they'd never play again.)

A "permanent divide" between pre-merger and post-merger is neither workable nor correct. NO LONG-TIME FAN OF THE NBA WOULD EVER AGREE TO THAT; nor any ex-players!

EVERY GOAT LIST INCLUDES PRE-MERGER PLAYERS! Because they were that good.

Heck, the NBA itself, back for its 50th Anniversary, chose its "50 Greatest Players" and a good number of them were pre-merger, as they should have been.

It's absolutely NOT correct that the "modern day league started in 1980"! Far, far from it.

Besides, if we start doing that; we could say, just as justifiably (or Unjustifiably) that the "Modern NBA" started post-Shaq. Why? Because, all of a sudden, for the first time ever, Centers DON'T DOMINATE! Instead, we have "position-less ball" and "stretch-4s" and the total explosion of 3-Point Shooting. These are huge and seemingly "Modern" differences. Do the make the game ESSENTIALLY different? NO! Are they even an improvement? I believe YES (others strongly disagree - that is the entire History of the NBA!)

Pablonovi
07-18-2014, 12:29 PM
Um. Yes? What if one got injured for rest of career, aka Bron? He wouldn't be top 10 then

nominate Jason Kidd

Hey ThuglifeJ,
I guess we all know you rank LeBron WAY LOWER than just about anybody who regularly posts around here.

But, for many of us, we don't evaluate LeBron's 11 year career (with 10 truly Great Years) because of what he might or might not do in the future. MJ had 11 Great Years, same for Magic, Bird maybe 10; almost all the Greatest Players had about 10 Great Years (only KAJ, Kobe, Karl Malone and TD had 13+). That, just by itself, tells us that LeBron definitely does belong NOW (regardless of if he ever plays another game.) His taking that "D-League" Cavs team all the way to the Finals is something that I believe personally, no other player in history could have done - it took HIS combination of skills and attitude to drive that "busted wreck" that far.

His advanced stats are already virtually equal with MJ's (and in some case have surpassed his). His eFG% is just INSANE for a non-center! AND, it's been improving by leaps and bounds the past few years. He is probably, arguably, THE MOST COMPLETE PLAYER EVER. His offensive game is now almost-"Perfect": unstoppable going to the rim, shoots well everywhere, even out to the 3-point line; and is the best passer since Magic. His defense is incredible, NEVER has a player been able to play "shut-down" Defense on 4.5 positions.

Pablonovi
07-18-2014, 12:52 PM
Considering that the recent era has been one of the weakest it simply shows that there's a lot of bias towards modern players.

I'm pretty sure in 20-30 years the young fans will say that 2-3 players entering the NBA in the span of 2020-2023 will be top 10 of all time.

Since Wilt & The 60's, There's NEVER Been Any Weak Or Strong Eras, Today Is Similar

Hey NYKalltheway,
Your assertion "that the recent era has been one of the weakest" is unprovable; and the vast-majority of knowledgeable, even expert, analyzers of the sport would greatly disagree with you.

Heck, it's just a fact that newer fans have said this exact same thing every decade since Mikan stopped playing (in the late 40s, early 50s) and especially since Wilt and the 60s.

If we ONLY look at Center-Play, then, definitely, unequivocably you are right. But, overall NO WAY!
We have the greatest coaching ever. (How do I know this? Because, coaching is always evolving, adjusting, improving on what was done before; and besides, we have more assistant coaches now than ever before. We have easily the most-advanced aids for players: massage, diet, exercises, injury-prevention and injury-recovery. We have advanced stats (which despite their weakeness, definitely do improve our understanding of the game). We have 100% total-court video coverage.

What are we seeing out on the court? We are seeing INCESSANT MOVEMENT on offense, thru the entire 24 second clock! This is a huge advance; it puts tremendous strain on the D. Instead of one set play, or one with a back up second one; coaches now design 24-second sequences of plays - to eventually exploit some defensive weakness. (Witness "Spurfection" on Offense - where it seemed like an ENTIRE TEAM had turned into Magic Johnson's. That ball-movement was so exquisite it rendered the Heat's excellent, swarming D almost useless!

-In my opinion, Spurfection is/will revolutionize the NBA; and, if not making it extinct, seriously reducing iso-hero ball style offenses. - A great improvement as far as I'm concerned.

But the defenses are keeping up. Defensive schemes are more-perfected than ever. (Witness "Spurfection" on Defense. LeBron the unstoppable force met his irresistible object. More, they also shut down the Heat's 3s. By constantly rotating-in fresh bodies with TEAM-first attitudes; they just wore down the Heat on both sides of the ball.)

Given all the above, the requirements on the average NBA player have never been greater. He must be in the best physical condition ever. His BBIQ was be up there with the highest ever (because of all these schemes and adjustments and movement.) In my opinion, this is the reason we're seeing what I think is an increased level of serious career-threatening injuries - the demands the game is putting on the players is taking them to a physical edge / tipping point where the human body just can not do more, or even fully sustain it without breaking down.

Then we have the influence of the International Players (starting with the Euro wave; but, imo, soon to be supplanted by Asian and African waves - the NBA's world-popularity has not even come close to peaking!

I just need to add that, imo, starting with the 1960's no NBA era has been QUALITATIVELY way weaker or way stronger than any other. Each has been better/stronger in some aspects and weaker in others. For me, it's close enough that we should just treat each of these decades as essentially equal.

Pablonovi
07-18-2014, 01:02 PM
The top 10 has 4 active/recently retired players lol. Should be 2 at best (Shaq and arguably Duncan)

The NBA is not a league founded in 1980 you know.

PS: Listen to SLY, he knows what he's saying.

Hey NYKalltheway,
In theory, this "top-heavy" active/recent players in/near the Top of our GOAT list concerns me. BUT, all you have to do is look at the Longetivity:
Shaq, TD and Kobe all (already) played 15+ good to great seasons. Before recently, this could only be said about KAJ and Karl Malone. Longetivity by itself can only indicate so much - BUT, you don't play so long unless you are good enough to be allowed by coaching staffs to play so long! But Top-Quality STRETCHED over a decade and a half - is a kind of "irresistible force" - it forces us to acknowledge that we're witnessing something very special, and, formerly, almost unique.

That leaves only LeBron out of the recent/active 4 guys. He's already got 10 Great Season (plus an outstanding 1st year as a rookie). His PEAK, which seems to still be continuing, perhaps even improving!) is a TOP 5 PEAK ever. His COMPLETENESS is, easily, at least TOP 5 EVER. He belongs in the GOAT Top 10 Discussion.

btw, there were other times when the then "current" period's top players ranked quite high in the GOAT lists: the 60's with Wilt, West, "O", Baylor and Russell. IF extra-long extended-periods of Great Play becomes the norm, that will tend to significantly influence GOAT lists TOWARDS / IN FAVOR OF the newer players. Why? Because they will have earned it.

XpLiCiTT
07-18-2014, 01:27 PM
Um. Yes? What if one got injured for rest of career, aka Bron? He wouldn't be top 10 then

nominate Jason Kidd

You say that like LeBron doesn't already have a top 10 resume. He's been in the league 11 years now. Plus, thats just a hypothetical, an EXTREME hypothetical. Is that really what you're going to go off of? You don't think Kobe deserves top 10 either? Duncan?

XpLiCiTT
07-18-2014, 01:31 PM
Considering that the recent era has been one of the weakest it simply shows that there's a lot of bias towards modern players.

I'm pretty sure in 20-30 years the young fans will say that 2-3 players entering the NBA in the span of 2020-2023 will be top 10 of all time.

Shaq, Duncan, LeBron, and Kobe are all top 10 talents all-time. It doesn't take some random player to just achieve this status just because he plays in a certain era. Look at their resumes and watch them play, it speaks for itself. I don't know how old you are but it seems that you have a bias towards older players, does that make it fair to just blindly state modern players aren't good enough to be in the top 10?

Pablonovi
07-18-2014, 01:32 PM
In Some Decades The Top 5 Or So Guys Are Way Better Than The Next Guys; In Others NOT

In theory, statistically speaking, there's bound to be periods where the "outliers" are more extreme than during other periods. Practically, we've seen this in the NBA. There have been decades when the Top 5 Guys were way better than the next 5; then, in other decades, the gap wasn't nearly as great. In those when the Top guys are way better, they'd naturally tend to get ranked higher in GOAT lists than the top guys from more-even decades.

Otoh, the "Second Best 5", in the "Top-Heavy" decades, will tend to rank relatively lower in GOAT lists than the corresponding "Second Best 5" in the more-even decades.

Take the 60's for example:
Top 5: Wilt, West, "O", Baylor, Russell. (I've got all 5 of them in my GOAT Top 20).
2nd 5: Pettit, Greer, Jerry Lucas, Cousy, Rick Barry (perhaps Hondo & Heinsohn) (I don't have any of them close to my GOAT Top 25 EXCEPT for Pettit and Barry but that's because they were also top guys in another decade).

Compare that to the 70's for example:
Top 5: KAJ, Barry (again), Dr. J., Hondo (again), Frazier
2nd 5: Gilmore, Hayes, Haywood, McGinnis, West (again)

With the exception of the Top 3: KAJ, Barry and Dr. J, the next 2 are about equal to the following 5. So, I've got KAJ and Dr. J. in my GOAT Top 10, Barry in my GOAT Top 15; and the other 7 guys a good deal lower.

Basically, all the decades, starting with the 60's, average out. Some are more top-heavy; others more "evenly-distributed".

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-18-2014, 02:31 PM
Rofl Bron 8.



Serious question, can we end this one earlier? Just to speed up the process this one..if Kobe is like 55 and the next closest is 2 votes...can we just move onto 11?

:laugh2: I know right. Psd has Lebron ranked in the top 8. That'll show you the average age of posters.

Pablonovi
07-18-2014, 02:38 PM
:laugh2: I know right. Psd has Lebron ranked in the top 8. That'll show you the average age of posters.

Hey ILLUSIONIST^248,
Probably no real need to ridicule other posters. GOAT voting, even among the experts, tends to vary widely. In LeBron's case in particular; a huge percentage of keen observers of the game has come over to ranking him in the Top 10 AND as, already THE #1 SF of all time (over Bird, Dr. J. and Baylor); including some BIG Bird guys.

Then we might consider that supposedly (probably?) there are more Lakers fans than perhaps the rest of the NBA fans combined around here. Yet LeBron's getting the votes.

btw I qualify on all three counts:
a) OLD :oldguy:
b) Half-Century PLUS Lakers rabid fan;
c) Love Kobe more than I love Lebron

Still I've got LeBron ahead of Kobe now, barely (I've got it: Lebron GOAT #5, Kobe GOAT #6-8.)

Bos_Sports4Life
07-18-2014, 03:34 PM
The "Big 3" IMO is still Kareem, Russell, and MJ (No order).

They combined for 23 NBA titles and 16 League MVP's.

Those 3 accomplished more than anyone, its that simple....

ThuglifeJ
07-18-2014, 04:47 PM
Um. Yes? What if one got injured for rest of career, aka Bron? He wouldn't be top 10 then

nominate Jason Kidd

You say that like LeBron doesn't already have a top 10 resume. He's been in the league 11 years now. Plus, thats just a hypothetical, an EXTREME hypothetical. Is that really what you're going to go off of? You don't think Kobe deserves top 10 either? Duncan?

Kobe and Duncan's careers are already pretty wrapped up. Lebrons could improve it could not..losing last finals by that large of margins definitely didn't help. His biggest feat IMO was getting to finals with cavs, then his first ring. Losing the other 2 finals, in terrible fashion in their own ways, is a hit on his legacy. He will be in top 10 most likely but why throw him in now? Save it for 2018 poll..

SLY WILLIAMS
07-18-2014, 05:14 PM
Interesting that we as a board went from some people saying Lebron was better than Michael Jordan to now questioning whether Lebron is a top 10 player on this board in around 1 month. I do think Lebron is a top 10 player BUT there is some sort of special quality that guys like Jordan/Bird had late in games that guys that Lebron does not have. Some might call it leadership. Some might call it fearlessness. Some might call it being clutch. It is hard to pinpoint exactly but I think many fans, players and coaches would understand what I mean.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?866440-Can-we-put-to-rest-that-LeBron-isn-t-better-than-MJ

In regards to this vote it looks like Kobe has it wrapped up. I look forward to votes where guys like Isiah and Patrick are included. Mchale as well.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-18-2014, 05:21 PM
:laugh2: I know right. Psd has Lebron ranked in the top 8. That'll show you the average age of posters.

Hey ILLUSIONIST^248,
Probably no real need to ridicule other posters. GOAT voting, even among the experts, tends to vary widely. In LeBron's case in particular; a huge percentage of keen observers of the game has come over to ranking him in the Top 10 AND as, already THE #1 SF of all time (over Bird, Dr. J. and Baylor); including some BIG Bird guys.

Then we might consider that supposedly (probably?) there are more Lakers fans than perhaps the rest of the NBA fans combined around here. Yet LeBron's getting the votes.

btw I qualify on all three counts:
a) OLD :oldguy:
b) Half-Century PLUS Lakers rabid fan;
c) Love Kobe more than I love Lebron

Still I've got LeBron ahead of Kobe now, barely (I've got it: Lebron GOAT #5, Kobe GOAT #6-8.)

I have a good idea of who's dupe you are but I'll just leave that to my imagination. I enjoy reading your posts.

Pablonovi
07-18-2014, 05:31 PM
I have a good idea of who's dupe you are but I'll just leave that to my imagination. I enjoy reading your posts.

Hey ILLUSIONIST^248,
Thanx for the compliment. Seriously, I really appreciate that from you (even a bit more given that we're strongly disagreeing here - nice on your part.!)

btw, this is only the first or second time in months that word has been used around me (whereas before it was daily). There were over 10 separate posters I was claimed to be the same as!

If it's who I think you mean, if you watch his youtube videos, it's clear that he's from where he said he was: Germany - his English shows that he's no native speaker. I, on the other hand, was raised by a woman (my mom) who was an English Teacher (for 40 years); and as strict as they get. (We wouldn't get to eat supper if we didn't pronounce our words right.)

The other thing, he claimed to be in his early 20's (which seems reasonable). I claim to be in my mid '60's (which seems equally or even more reasonable to me! hehe).

cmellofan15
07-18-2014, 08:32 PM
I have a good idea of who's dupe you are but I'll just leave that to my imagination. I enjoy reading your posts.

wait, aren't you amos1er?

ThuglifeJ
07-18-2014, 08:42 PM
Rofl Bron 8.



Serious question, can we end this one earlier? Just to speed up the process this one..if Kobe is like 55 and the next closest is 2 votes...can we just move onto 11?

:laugh2: I know right. Psd has Lebron ranked in the top 8. That'll show you the average age of posters..
Its more weighted on living in the moment than age to me.

When Shaq, kg or whoever was tearing it up ppl were inclined to say they COULD be the greatest ever top 10 w.e....but no one had nerve to actually put them there prematurely

Lebron Cleveland signing gets ppls panties wet so they start giving something like this special treatment for Bron

ThuglifeJ
07-18-2014, 08:44 PM
Interesting that we as a board went from some people saying Lebron was better than Michael Jordan to now questioning whether Lebron is a top 10 player on this board in around 1 month. I do think Lebron is a top 10 player BUT there is some sort of special quality that guys like Jordan/Bird had late in games that guys that Lebron does not have. Some might call it leadership. Some might call it fearlessness. Some might call it being clutch. It is hard to pinpoint exactly but I think many fans, players and coaches would understand what I mean.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?866440-Can-we-put-to-rest-that-LeBron-isn-t-better-than-MJ

In regards to this vote it looks like Kobe has it wrapped up. I look forward to votes where guys like Isiah and Patrick are included. Mchale as well.

Its simply true from anyone who watches..you shouldn't be shunned for saying this criticism, but you will be.

XpLiCiTT
07-18-2014, 09:04 PM
Interesting that we as a board went from some people saying Lebron was better than Michael Jordan to now questioning whether Lebron is a top 10 player on this board in around 1 month. I do think Lebron is a top 10 player BUT there is some sort of special quality that guys like Jordan/Bird had late in games that guys that Lebron does not have. Some might call it leadership. Some might call it fearlessness. Some might call it being clutch. It is hard to pinpoint exactly but I think many fans, players and coaches would understand what I mean.


Whoever said that should be perma-banned.

Hawkeye15
07-18-2014, 09:20 PM
:laugh2: I know right. Psd has Lebron ranked in the top 8. That'll show you the average age of posters.

how old are you?

Pablonovi
07-18-2014, 09:24 PM
wait, aren't you amos1er?

Hey cmellofan15,
Perhaps just adding to the confusion (inside my head as well as outside it?) ...
Are you asking ILLUSIONIST^248 this
or are you asking / questioning me about it?

(Am I making any sense, as usual???)

Pablonovi
07-18-2014, 09:28 PM
Whoever said that should be perma-banned.

Hey XpLiCiTT,
Seriously?
btw I think we had an entire thread raising this question; but, perhaps, the OP was just stirring up trouble and/or trying out a joke - there certainly didn't seem to be much if any support for the proposition. (And, it seems to me, he had been taking the exact opposition just about right until the moment he started that thread.)

I don't know about perma-banning people for having wacko opinions though. This place'd be a ghost town in a week; with me being first out the door probably?!

Pablonovi
07-18-2014, 09:31 PM
how old are you?

Hey Hawk,
This reminds me ...
I was kind of expecting you to play a much bigger role in these here GOAT discussions; but you mostly seem to be popping in just long enough to say who you've voted for. Seeing as, at least in my HUMBLE BLEEPING OPINION (hehe); you're easily one of the most knowledgeable NBA PSD-ers; mind if I ask: "What gives?"

XpLiCiTT
07-18-2014, 09:52 PM
Hey XpLiCiTT,
Seriously?
btw I think we had an entire thread raising this question; but, perhaps, the OP was just stirring up trouble and/or trying out a joke - there certainly didn't seem to be much if any support for the proposition. (And, it seems to me, he had been taking the exact opposition just about right until the moment he started that thread.)

I don't know about perma-banning people for having wacko opinions though. This place'd be a ghost town in a week; with me being first out the door probably?!

Haha Pablo you're the man, I didn't literally mean they should be perma-banned. But saying LeBron is better than Jordan is outrageous, at least at this point or any point in the past.

Pablonovi
07-18-2014, 10:13 PM
Haha Pablo you're the man, I didn't literally mean they should be perma-banned. But saying LeBron is better than Jordan is outrageous, at least at this point or any point in the past.

Hey XpLiCiTT,
You say, "Pablo you're the man" (I have to repeat that because, in addition to liking the sound of it; it's always good to be sure, right?)

But, Gee I thought you were gonna say that I'm outrageous. (Probably true; but thanx for sparing my feelings!)

I DID get that you were just joking around. But can't seem to resist (me that is, I can't seem to resist) responding to "joke-age" with "in-kind-age".

Sadds The Gr8
07-19-2014, 01:13 AM
I actually don't mind the list except leBron being too high.

FlashBolt
07-19-2014, 01:37 AM
I can certainly understand a lot of the Kobe support based on longevity and the age of posters so I expect Kobe to win this vote in a route.

For me this is a tough call though because if I was starting a team tomorrow I would consider taking David Robinson before Kobe. I know Drob is not shown a lot of respect on PSD but the guy was a darn good player for the first 7 years of his career before his back injury. If you pick based on cumulative stuff like most games played, most points scored, and most anything else Kobe is the choice for sure but was he a better basketball player? I think I'm going to go Drob. I understand some Kobe fans will be upset by this pick. I do not mean any offense to Kobe. I'm just giving my own opinion. People are free to disagree with it. :)

You know how many players would have compelling arguments for top 10 if they were judged by one or a couple of seasons? I know your definition of best player is simply that: Who was the best player at their absolute best. But it's more advanced than that at this point. Way too much history and factors to simply pick a player over another because of a short stint. When we compare an entire career, there are more fascinating points that one could make. Is KD on your top 10? His numbers and game surely makes an argument for it but what really puts him over the edge against an established 18 year career with accolades that one could only dream of achieving even half of?

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-19-2014, 02:45 AM
I have a good idea of who's dupe you are but I'll just leave that to my imagination. I enjoy reading your posts.

wait, aren't you amos1er?

To psd I'm like 10 people lol.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-19-2014, 02:47 AM
:laugh2: I know right. Psd has Lebron ranked in the top 8. That'll show you the average age of posters.

how old are you?


30ish, why do you ask good sir?

bucketss
07-19-2014, 05:31 AM
oscar robertson to round out the top ten.

XpLiCiTT
07-19-2014, 05:35 AM
To psd I'm like 10 people lol.

Yes but you're most commonly known as the troll poster who has no idea what he/she is talking about!

NYKalltheway
07-19-2014, 06:23 AM
Yeah because Kobe and LeBron's resumes don't warrant top 10. :rolleyes:

Hmm...

Charles Barkley
Oscar Robertson
Karl Malone
Bill Russell
Walt Frazier
John Stockton
John Havlicek
Julius Erving
David Robinson
Isiah Thomas
Bob Petitt
Jerry West
Elgin Baylor
Bill Russell
Sam Jones
Tom Heinsohn
George Mikan
Scottie Pippen
Bob Cousy
Slater Martin
Walt Bellamy
Moses Malone
Patrick Ewing
Bailey Howell
Rick Barry
Clyde Drexler
Kevin Garnett
Hal Greer
Willis Reed
Elvin Hayes
Bob Lanier
Ray Allen
Jasok Kidd
Steve Nash
Kevin McHale
Gary Payton
Dominique Wilkins
Bob McAdoo
Wes Unseld
Bernard King
Adrian Dantley
James Worthy


If both Lebron and Kobe are in a top 10, that should only be about a list based on the 2000s (not including 2010s). If both Lebron and Kobe are in someone's top 10, then there's every right for at least 5 of the guys I mentioned to be in someone's top 10. You might laugh at some of the names at that list, but that's exactly what I'm doing when I see Lebron and Kobe in an all time top 10. It only causes laughter. A little bit of confusion, too.

Don't support a ridiculous argument just because your NBA knowledge is limited to the modern game and because you can't distinguish between basketball talent and a boxscore/advanced stats.

NYKalltheway
07-19-2014, 06:27 AM
Since Wilt & The 60's, There's NEVER Been Any Weak Or Strong Eras, Today Is Similar

Hey NYKalltheway,
Your assertion "that the recent era has been one of the weakest" is unprovable; and the vast-majority of knowledgeable, even expert, analyzers of the sport would greatly disagree with you.

Heck, it's just a fact that newer fans have said this exact same thing every decade since Mikan stopped playing (in the late 40s, early 50s) and especially since Wilt and the 60s.

If we ONLY look at Center-Play, then, definitely, unequivocably you are right. But, overall NO WAY!
We have the greatest coaching ever.

...and this is where I stopped reading your post :)

NYKalltheway
07-19-2014, 06:37 AM
Shaq, Duncan, LeBron, and Kobe are all top 10 talents all-time. It doesn't take some random player to just achieve this status just because he plays in a certain era. Look at their resumes and watch them play, it speaks for itself. I don't know how old you are but it seems that you have a bias towards older players, does that make it fair to just blindly state modern players aren't good enough to be in the top 10?

The thing is, I'm not biased towards anyone. My perspective is as clear as it can be. On the other hand, saying that Lebron and Kobe are top 10 players shows bias. As if people want to tell their dads off because they witnessed 'better' players than they had.

You know how many "top 10 talents all-time" I can name you? Shaq is not one of them btw. Shaq's game was 100% physicality. He was not a talented player but there was no way one could stop him.

Before Lebron, there was this guy called Elgin Baylor who was exactly the same player (in terms of playing style) with better shooting % (interesting fact: missed shots on a foul counted as missed shots back then, today they don't count unless they are scored, which pushes the FG% higher today, plus fouls are given for no reason today while in the past one had to bleed)


I'm not the one who's biased here.


But since you wanted to talk about top 10 talents, here's a quick one from me without much analysis.

1) Magic Johnson
2) Hakeem Olajuwon
3) Michael Jordan
4) Pete Maravich
5) Oscar Robertson
6) Moses Malone
7) Tracy McGrady
8) Michael Ray Richardson
9) Penny Hardaway
10) Isiah Thomas

And that's just about pure basketball talent. I'm pretty sure 99% of you will not understand what this means so I'll quietly ignore any rants over this unless I made a huge ommission. I have Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Kevin McHale, Tim Duncan and Allen Iverson completing the top 15.

valade16
07-19-2014, 09:41 AM
LeBron James has won more MVPs than everyone in NBA History except Kareem, Russell, MJ, Wilt.

He has played nearly as many games in his career as Bird (897 to 842) and Magic (902 to 842).

Of all the players who have won MVPs in history, he has won as many or more Championships than all but 9 of them (Kareem, Russell, MJ, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan and Cousy).

Anyone who says LeBron somehow doesn't have the resume (or longevity) to be top 10 is simply wrong.

I'm saying this factually and not as an opinion: you cannot name 10 players that have greater NBA accomplishments than LeBron, therefore he is top 10. Period, end of story...

valade16
07-19-2014, 09:44 AM
The thing is, I'm not biased towards anyone. My perspective is as clear as it can be. On the other hand, saying that Lebron and Kobe are top 10 players shows bias. As if people want to tell their dads off because they witnessed 'better' players than they had.

You know how many "top 10 talents all-time" I can name you? Shaq is not one of them btw. Shaq's game was 100% physicality. He was not a talented player but there was no way one could stop him.

Before Lebron, there was this guy called Elgin Baylor who was exactly the same player (in terms of playing style) with better shooting % (interesting fact: missed shots on a foul counted as missed shots back then, today they don't count unless they are scored, which pushes the FG% higher today, plus fouls are given for no reason today while in the past one had to bleed)


I'm not the one who's biased here.


But since you wanted to talk about top 10 talents, here's a quick one from me without much analysis.

1) Magic Johnson
2) Hakeem Olajuwon
3) Michael Jordan
4) Pete Maravich
5) Oscar Robertson
6) Moses Malone
7) Tracy McGrady
8) Michael Ray Richardson
9) Penny Hardaway
10) Isiah Thomas

And that's just about pure basketball talent. I'm pretty sure 99% of you will not understand what this means so I'll quietly ignore any rants over this unless I made a huge ommission. I have Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Kevin McHale, Tim Duncan and Allen Iverson completing the top 15.

I understand what you are saying but to leave LeBron off the list seems like insanity. In terms of basketball talent I'd struggle to name 3 guys with more.

What can't LeBron do that the people on the list could do that makes them better talents?

Pass? Shoot? Defend? Drive? I mean he does all those things at an elite level...

FlashBolt
07-19-2014, 11:56 AM
The thing is, I'm not biased towards anyone. My perspective is as clear as it can be. On the other hand, saying that Lebron and Kobe are top 10 players shows bias. As if people want to tell their dads off because they witnessed 'better' players than they had.

You know how many "top 10 talents all-time" I can name you? Shaq is not one of them btw. Shaq's game was 100% physicality. He was not a talented player but there was no way one could stop him.

Before Lebron, there was this guy called Elgin Baylor who was exactly the same player (in terms of playing style) with better shooting % (interesting fact: missed shots on a foul counted as missed shots back then, today they don't count unless they are scored, which pushes the FG% higher today, plus fouls are given for no reason today while in the past one had to bleed)


I'm not the one who's biased here.


But since you wanted to talk about top 10 talents, here's a quick one from me without much analysis.

1) Magic Johnson
2) Hakeem Olajuwon
3) Michael Jordan
4) Pete Maravich
5) Oscar Robertson
6) Moses Malone
7) Tracy McGrady
8) Michael Ray Richardson
9) Penny Hardaway
10) Isiah Thomas

And that's just about pure basketball talent. I'm pretty sure 99% of you will not understand what this means so I'll quietly ignore any rants over this unless I made a huge ommission. I have Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Kevin McHale, Tim Duncan and Allen Iverson completing the top 15.

Seriously, stop it. How did Tracy ever have more talent than leBron? What are you basing this off of? Pure garbage... Magic Johnson pure talent? He was a 6"9 going against 6"3 PG's. He could pass but he wasn't an elite defender or scorer.. And then you even insert Pete Maravich? you're right.. You're not biased. You're just not very good at evaluating talent.

FlashBolt
07-19-2014, 11:58 AM
A 6"8 built like a center as quick as a PG who can pass, rebound, score, defend 1-4.5 positions, and can

1) Post up
2) Drive
3) Shoot

yet... that doesn't warrant top 10 talent but Pete Maravich does.. Lol...

SLY WILLIAMS
07-19-2014, 12:18 PM
You know how many players would have compelling arguments for top 10 if they were judged by one or a couple of seasons? I know your definition of best player is simply that: Who was the best player at their absolute best. But it's more advanced than that at this point. Way too much history and factors to simply pick a player over another because of a short stint. When we compare an entire career, there are more fascinating points that one could make. Is KD on your top 10? His numbers and game surely makes an argument for it but what really puts him over the edge against an established 18 year career with accolades that one could only dream of achieving even half of?

I have not judged any player by 1 or 2 seasons. That is a total red herring. 7-12 seasons is not 1-2 seasons. I view a players peak as their best season not as a 7-12 year period. Maybe that is where we are seeing things differently. 10 years is closer to a full career than a peak in my eyes. When I think of how great a player was I think about when they were in their primes not when they are older or injured. If they have a longer prime they deserve credit for that but I only use that as a tie breaker in cases where guys abilities are close. KD has not played long enough for me to include him yet but if his career ended today he would not be in my top 10.

Peak:
1. the pointed top of a mountain or ridge.
2. a mountain with a pointed summit.
3. the pointed top of anything.
4. the highest or most important point or level: the peak of her political career.
5. the maximum point, degree, or volume of anything:

SLY WILLIAMS
07-19-2014, 12:23 PM
Its simply true from anyone who watches..you shouldn't be shunned for saying this criticism, but you will be.

LOL shunned for giving an opinion on a sports board? I encourage people to think about things more than just stats or popularity. If that gets me "shunned" I'm okay with that. I do not usually waste my time with rude people. I'd much rather discuss things with people that are polite. I'm wrong often and I never stop learning so I'm happy to discuss things with people that I feel are respectful (as much as time allows). I might learn something from them.....or vice versa. :)

jaayytheillest
07-19-2014, 12:38 PM
Why do people knock kobe peak 35 ppg 5 reb 4 ast and elite defense sounds dominant to me

allSUAVE
07-19-2014, 12:57 PM
Kobe turn

kdspurman
07-19-2014, 02:22 PM
Seriously, stop it. How did Tracy ever have more talent than leBron? What are you basing this off of? Pure garbage... Magic Johnson pure talent? He was a 6"9 going against 6"3 PG's. He could pass but he wasn't an elite defender or scorer.. And then you even insert Pete Maravich? you're right.. You're not biased. You're just not very good at evaluating talent.

Talent wise/skill level alone, I don't think it's that crazy to say McGrady had more than Lebron. That doesn't equate to better defender, leader, and/or other intangibles that factor in who's a better player. But IMO, T-Mac could probably score in a more variety of ways than Lebron. So maybe in that sense he's more talented/skilled?

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-19-2014, 02:25 PM
To psd I'm like 10 people lol.

Yes but you're most commonly known as the troll poster who has no idea what he/she is talking about!

You mean I'm known as the guy who doesn't have Lebrons nuts in my hand at all times.

XpLiCiTT
07-19-2014, 03:29 PM
To psd I'm like 10 people lol.

Yes but you're most commonly known as the troll poster who has no idea what he/she is talking about!

You mean I'm known as the guy who doesn't have Lebrons nuts in my hand at all times.

Ohh right, my mistake. Its Kobes ballsack that's in your mouth at all times. You're that guy.

FlashBolt
07-19-2014, 03:39 PM
Talent wise/skill level alone, I don't think it's that crazy to say McGrady had more than Lebron. That doesn't equate to better defender, leader, and/or other intangibles that factor in who's a better player. But IMO, T-Mac could probably score in a more variety of ways than Lebron. So maybe in that sense he's more talented/skilled?

So is Carmelo more skilled than LeBron? I don't think there's an argument here. I said I'll take McGrady because in his prime, he was Kevin Durant-like, but there is no way McGrady makes an argument as top 10. Just evaluating talent is a joke.

kdspurman
07-19-2014, 04:42 PM
So is Carmelo more skilled than LeBron? I don't think there's an argument here. I said I'll take McGrady because in his prime, he was Kevin Durant-like, but there is no way McGrady makes an argument as top 10. Just evaluating talent is a joke.

I thought Carmelo wass a more skilled offensive player/scorer than Lebron, but I am not sure that's the case anymore as Lebron has started to post up more and improve his jump shot.

I'm not making an argument for T-Mac as top 10 here at all, I just don't think there's anything so outlandish about him being more skilled than Lebron.

Jason Williams (White Chocolate) was extremely talented and more skilled than a bunch of other PG's. But there were far more parts of the game where other guys were better and more well-rounded and thus there a bunch of PG's who would be had before him.

Pablonovi
07-19-2014, 05:21 PM
...and this is where I stopped reading your post :)

Hey NYKalltheway,
I like how you magnified those words. Kind of stand out (as either great thinking on my part; or as proof of my idiocy).

Gee, I actually thought that that was my LEAST controversial point.

Do you think that coaching nowadays is inferior to in the past?

To me, it just kind of seems logical - that with more accumulated time/experience (and more assistants and technology - etc) that the coaching would be bound to improve (at least generally - there's always some coaches that aren't very good - to say the least-est).

There's stuff you say I find interesting; so I'd really like to hear what you have to say about this question.
Care to?

Pablonovi
07-19-2014, 05:33 PM
I have not judged any player by 1 or 2 seasons. That is a total red herring. 7-12 seasons is not 1-2 seasons. I view a players peak as their best season not as a 7-12 year period. Maybe that is where we are seeing things differently. 10 years is closer to a full career than a peak in my eyes. When I think of how great a player was I think about when they were in their primes not when they are older or injured. If they have a longer prime they deserve credit for that but I only use that as a tie breaker in cases where guys abilities are close. KD has not played long enough for me to include him yet but if his career ended today he would not be in my top 10.

Peak:
1. the pointed top of a mountain or ridge.
2. a mountain with a pointed summit.
3. the pointed top of anything.
4. the highest or most important point or level: the peak of her political career.
5. the maximum point, degree, or volume of anything:

Hey SLY ...,
I've thought for the past year (seeing as I "learned" it here and I just joined a year and a week ago - a lame "plug" for my belated "PSD-birthday-boy" status, btw) that PEAK (which is supposed to be capitalized for some important reason or other) means around 5 years; and PRIME means slightly less quality-play stretched over more seasons.

By way of explaining what might very well be complete nonsense (on my part!):
I think of KAJ as having a monster PEAK of 5+ Years (71-76) (but also had monster 1-year and 3-year PEAKs. So, I'm definitely sort-of, kind-of, contradicting myself.) Whereas, KAJ had an unequalled PRIME of some 17-18 Years (From his first year to at least his 17th when he was still ALL-NBA #1 Center.

About your list of definitions:
Even when you're on the peak of a peak-ish mountain, oftentimes it's not actually a pointy point; but a rounded or even relatively-flat area (depending on the size, either bigger or smaller hehe). In other words, you can stand on it without falling off in one direction or another (or get speared between the legs if you slip.)

Likewise, "the peak of her political career" - I might take that to mean a period of more than 2 years; especially if she was in serious politics for over 10 years. I could just be twisting your definitions to meet my needs here?

For example, some person who was a public office holder for 15 years, might say that reaching the high office of Senator was the PEAK of their career - and Senators can hold office for 6 years iirc (it's been a long time since I was one - hehe)

In any event, I do admire that you stick by your guns/position at least until properly overcome/overwon by a stronger position.

bucketss
07-19-2014, 05:48 PM
Hmm...

Charles Barkley
Oscar Robertson
Karl Malone
Bill Russell
Walt Frazier
John Stockton
John Havlicek
Julius Erving
David Robinson
Isiah Thomas
Bob Petitt
Jerry West
Elgin Baylor
Bill Russell
Sam Jones
Tom Heinsohn
George Mikan
Scottie Pippen
Bob Cousy
Slater Martin
Walt Bellamy
Moses Malone
Patrick Ewing
Bailey Howell
Rick Barry
Clyde Drexler
Kevin Garnett
Hal Greer
Willis Reed
Elvin Hayes
Bob Lanier
Ray Allen
Jasok Kidd
Steve Nash
Kevin McHale
Gary Payton
Dominique Wilkins
Bob McAdoo
Wes Unseld
Bernard King
Adrian Dantley
James Worthy


If both Lebron and Kobe are in a top 10, that should only be about a list based on the 2000s (not including 2010s). If both Lebron and Kobe are in someone's top 10, then there's every right for at least 5 of the guys I mentioned to be in someone's top 10. You might laugh at some of the names at that list, but that's exactly what I'm doing when I see Lebron and Kobe in an all time top 10. It only causes laughter. A little bit of confusion, too.

Don't support a ridiculous argument just because your NBA knowledge is limited to the modern game and because you can't distinguish between basketball talent and a boxscore/advanced stats.

well if we're talking talent than lebron should be #1

ThuglifeJ
07-19-2014, 08:46 PM
Flashbolt I get your 15 years old and all.. but Pete Maravich is easily a top talent of all time, and a top 10 talent is possible. Figure your **** out.


Nykalltheway: I understand your angle and where your coming from, I actually do understand your perspective on the words talent and skill which I can actually agree with, but unfortunately a large majority of this board can't comprehend it or have their own definition of it.

From viewing the entire NBA history as a whole..I can agree with most your players however I have beef with you not putting kobe up there. Kobes footwork is the best ever..he can do just about anything I just think you don't like him . tmac peak isn't THAT far ahead of him in terms of talent. In terns of skill or talent people need to get less simple minded...do you know there's more to a players skill than shoot, pass, drive?

Pablonovi
07-19-2014, 08:57 PM
This has turned into THE STRANGEST (mostly) NON-DISCUSSION of NON-NOMINEES for GOAT # WHAT???

Looking at things from the psychological perspective ...

wtf happened ???

Pablonovi
07-19-2014, 09:01 PM
This has turned into THE STRANGEST (mostly) NON-DISCUSSION of NON-NOMINEES for GOAT # WHAT???

Looking at things from the psychological perspective ...

wtf happened ???

Hey Dude,
You should talk !!!
Didn't you nominate like four of the guys on the list, and not only have you NOT voted for any of them even once; they've only accumulated like 1 vote total over all these threads they've been a part of.

wtf with that?

hidalgo
07-19-2014, 09:24 PM
Flashbolt I get your 15 years old and all.. but Pete Maravich is easily a top talent of all time, and a top 10 talent is possible. Figure your **** out.


Nykalltheway: I understand your angle and where your coming from, I actually do understand your perspective on the words talent and skill which I can actually agree with, but unfortunately a large majority of this board can't comprehend it or have their own definition of it.

From viewing the entire NBA history as a whole..I can agree with most your players however I have beef with you not putting kobe up there. Kobes footwork is the best ever..he can do just about anything I just think you don't like him . no, Michael Jordan had the best footwork ever, & was quicker than KB (part of why his footwork was better, & why his moves worked more often for better fg%) better control of his footwork as well, because he turned the ball over less making his moves

best footwork i ever saw in order

Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kobley Brylont

Pablonovi
07-19-2014, 09:52 PM
no, Michael Jordan had the best footwork ever, & was quicker than KB (part of why his footwork was better, & why his moves worked more often for better fg%) better control of his footwork as well, because he turned the ball over less making his moves

best footwork i ever saw in order

Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kobley Brylont

Hey hidalgo,
I can't comment on your list because I never studied the footwork of those guys enough to have a strong opinion.

For me, the best footwork I ever saw was:
Dr. J. (especially during his ABA days - I've never seen anybody do what he did frequently, as a matter of course: break-thru double-coverage by dribbling the ball between his legs without losing either control or speed (often on full-court one-man fast-breaks, weaving thru entire teams, leaving them helpless to stop him).

It didn't hurt that he had MJ-sized giant "mitts" (or even bigger) to manipulate the rock like it was second nature to him. His ball-control; his "handles" might be unequalled to this day.

What a damned shame that very few people ever got to seem him then even on TV. (I got to see him LIVE a couple of times back then; and a few more times on TV - because I already knew about him and had to see and experience it for myself.) He was THAT phenomenal.

SLY WILLIAMS
07-19-2014, 10:11 PM
Hey SLY ...,
I've thought for the past year (seeing as I "learned" it here and I just joined a year and a week ago - a lame "plug" for my belated "PSD-birthday-boy" status, btw) that PEAK (which is supposed to be capitalized for some important reason or other) means around 5 years; and PRIME means slightly less quality-play stretched over more seasons.

By way of explaining what might very well be complete nonsense (on my part!):
I think of KAJ as having a monster PEAK of 5+ Years (71-76) (but also had monster 1-year and 3-year PEAKs. So, I'm definitely sort-of, kind-of, contradicting myself.) Whereas, KAJ had an unequalled PRIME of some 17-18 Years (From his first year to at least his 17th when he was still ALL-NBA #1 Center.

About your list of definitions:
Even when you're on the peak of a peak-ish mountain, oftentimes it's not actually a pointy point; but a rounded or even relatively-flat area (depending on the size, either bigger or smaller hehe). In other words, you can stand on it without falling off in one direction or another (or get speared between the legs if you slip.)

Likewise, "the peak of her political career" - I might take that to mean a period of more than 2 years; especially if she was in serious politics for over 10 years. I could just be twisting your definitions to meet my needs here?

For example, some person who was a public office holder for 15 years, might say that reaching the high office of Senator was the PEAK of their career - and Senators can hold office for 6 years iirc (it's been a long time since I was one - hehe)

In any event, I do admire that you stick by your guns/position at least until properly overcome/overwon by a stronger position.

Pablo if you look beneath this post you will see the post I was replying to where Flash said I was judging by 1 or a couple of seasons. That was never the case. I look at players in their primes which are longer than 1 or 2 seasons.


You know how many players would have compelling arguments for top 10 if they were judged by one or a couple of seasons? I know your definition of best player is simply that: Who was the best player at their absolute best. ?

FlashBolt
07-19-2014, 11:04 PM
I thought Carmelo wass a more skilled offensive player/scorer than Lebron, but I am not sure that's the case anymore as Lebron has started to post up more and improve his jump shot.

I'm not making an argument for T-Mac as top 10 here at all, I just don't think there's anything so outlandish about him being more skilled than Lebron.

Jason Williams (White Chocolate) was extremely talented and more skilled than a bunch of other PG's. But there were far more parts of the game where other guys were better and more well-rounded and thus there a bunch of PG's who would be had before him.

But you said specifically that T-Mac could score in more variety of ways - which you're using as proof that T-Mac had more talent/skill. Well, T-Mac realistically never did anything better than James other than score. So unless you're suggesting offensive arsenal equates to overall talent, that's completely bogus. You know how many players were more talented than Magic at scoring? The thing with LeBron is we'll never know if he's a great scorer or a good scorer. The reason is simply put that LeBron doesn't force shots when he's playing terribly or excellent. To be a scorer, you have to have the mentality to shoot every shot bad or good and James won't do that. He'll simply adjust his game and find the better shot whether it'd be a pass or to find another way. +, I don't think Tracy was as gifted as a scorer as everyone claims. His efficiency really makes me wonder if his PPG were based off volume rather than actually being a talented scorer.

ThuglifeJ
07-20-2014, 12:39 AM
Flashbolt I get your 15 years old and all.. but Pete Maravich is easily a top talent of all time, and a top 10 talent is possible. Figure your **** out.


Nykalltheway: I understand your angle and where your coming from, I actually do understand your perspective on the words talent and skill which I can actually agree with, but unfortunately a large majority of this board can't comprehend it or have their own definition of it.

From viewing the entire NBA history as a whole..I can agree with most your players however I have beef with you not putting kobe up there. Kobes footwork is the best ever..he can do just about anything I just think you don't like him . no, Michael Jordan had the best footwork ever, & was quicker than KB (part of why his footwork was better, & why his moves worked more often for better fg%) better control of his footwork as well, because he turned the ball over less making his moves

best footwork i ever saw in order

Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kobley Brylont

Kobe was more creative off his footwork IMO. Jordan may have been more effective, true, but ive seen Kobe do moves no one else has been able to .

Tmac and yes, no bias, Vince, could do things no one has or will be able to do. That's talent

XpLiCiTT
07-20-2014, 12:41 AM
On the other hand, saying that Lebron and Kobe are top 10 players shows bias.

No it shows an opinion. You saying that these modern day players can't/shouldn't be considered in the top 10 shows bias.


But since you wanted to talk about top 10 talents, here's a quick one from me without much analysis.

1) Magic Johnson
2) Hakeem Olajuwon
3) Michael Jordan
4) Pete Maravich
5) Oscar Robertson
6) Moses Malone
7) Tracy McGrady
8) Michael Ray Richardson
9) Penny Hardaway
10) Isiah Thomas

And that's just about pure basketball talent. I'm pretty sure 99% of you will not understand what this means so I'll quietly ignore any rants over this unless I made a huge ommission. I have Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Kevin McHale, Tim Duncan and Allen Iverson completing the top 15.

So guys like Maravich, McGrady, and Hardaway are more talented basketball players than a guy like LeBron. That makes a lot of sense.

alexander_37
07-20-2014, 01:01 AM
No it shows an opinion. You saying that these modern day players can't/shouldn't be considered in the top 10 shows bias.



So guys like Maravich, McGrady, and Hardaway are more talented basketball players than a guy like LeBron. That makes a lot of sense.

Replace Maravich with lebron move him up to one and switch MJ with Hakeem.I would put Shaq or Dwight over Isaiah.

valade16
07-20-2014, 02:46 AM
Replace Maravich with lebron move him up to one and switch MJ with Hakeem.I would put Shaq or Dwight over Isaiah.

We're talking talent and you think dwight would be top 10 ever?

I'm not even sure he's among the top 10 most talented Centers ever.

alexander_37
07-20-2014, 09:20 AM
We're talking talent and you think dwight would be top 10 ever?

I'm not even sure he's among the top 10 most talented Centers ever.
He lives off his talent. Dude out rebounds over almost every 7 footer and he's like 6'9. also kemp is probably top 10-15.

kdspurman
07-20-2014, 11:46 AM
He lives off his talent. Dude out rebounds over almost every 7 footer and he's like 6'9. also kemp is probably top 10-15.

I don't know is that talent or just athletically gifted? is there a difference?

alexander_37
07-20-2014, 11:49 AM
I don't know is that talent or just athletically gifted? is there a difference?
Not imo skills are worked on athleticisim is talent

Pablonovi
07-20-2014, 12:45 PM
Pablo if you look beneath this post you will see the post I was replying to where Flash said I was judging by 1 or a couple of seasons. That was never the case. I look at players in their primes which are longer than 1 or 2 seasons.

Hey SLY...,
I was under the mis-conception that you were focusing much more on 1-2 seasons (which I think would be a great discussion/debate to have: "Who had the best 1-single and/or 2-3 seasons ever?) than on a more-extended period.

I stand corrected.
(Thanx for your explanation.)

Pablonovi
07-20-2014, 12:48 PM
Not imo skills are worked on athleticisim is talent

Hey alexander_37,
It could just be me, but I'm not sure what you're saying here.
Are you saying that in your opinion:
B-Ball skills become advanced thru working on them;
whereas
Athleticism is just natural-born talent (and seemingly can not be improved, or if so, not greatly so)?

Pablonovi
07-20-2014, 12:52 PM
Hey Mods, This Thread Is An Integral-Part Of A Series:Sticky A Link To The Next Part?

My question/suggestion is that, given that we have here an organized series of threads on one and the same main topic, the NBA GOAT Top 50; would it be possible to "sticky" a LINK to the next thread at the BOTTOM (as it changes) of each thread?

Chronz
07-20-2014, 01:03 PM
This one was over after the first hour. Next plz

alexander_37
07-20-2014, 05:08 PM
Hey alexander_37,
It could just be me, but I'm not sure what you're saying here.
Are you saying that in your opinion:
B-Ball skills become advanced thru working on them;
whereas
Athleticism is just natural-born talent (and seemingly can not be improved, or if so, not greatly so)?

Yes. Dwight Howard may be the most physically gifted C ever, I can't think of another C as explosive as him. Russell probably ran the floor as well as him but did not have the same leaping skills. Wilt was a freak in his day but is pretty average looking by today's standards of physical ability. The only player I can think of is Shaq who was also lazy and pretty out of shape a lot of the time but if he had the work ethic would be the one player I can think of over Dwight.

Tony_Starks
07-20-2014, 05:26 PM
Wow. I....... never mind, I don't even know why I'm surprised.

Chronz
07-20-2014, 05:41 PM
Yes. Dwight Howard may be the most physically gifted C ever, I can't think of another C as explosive as him. Russell probably ran the floor as well as him but did not have the same leaping skills. Wilt was a freak in his day but is pretty average looking by today's standards of physical ability. The only player I can think of is Shaq who was also lazy and pretty out of shape a lot of the time but if he had the work ethic would be the one player I can think of over Dwight.
Almost nothing you said was true

alexander_37
07-20-2014, 05:41 PM
Almost nothing you said was true

How so?

Pablonovi
07-20-2014, 05:54 PM
Yes. Dwight Howard may be the most physically gifted C ever, I can't think of another C as explosive as him. Russell probably ran the floor as well as him but did not have the same leaping skills. Wilt was a freak in his day but is pretty average looking by today's standards of physical ability. The only player I can think of is Shaq who was also lazy and pretty out of shape a lot of the time but if he had the work ethic would be the one player I can think of over Dwight.

Hey alexander_37,
Wow, this is a bit mind-boggling.
DHoward being "the most physically gifted C ever" - whoa nelly!
Russell was a phenomenal athlete with amazing leaping ability (there's a video of him going to the rim FROM the foul line, while leaping another player!).
Wilt, imo, would easily be the #1 Center (at least since Shaq) and, as they say, "It wouldn't even be close."
He was a once-in-a-century FREAK, so ... - well, that kind of says it right there.

How are a number of other centers (DRob, Hakeem just to name the first two off the top of my head) NOT "more physically gifted" centers than DHoward?

Shaq playing a lot of games out of game-shape - is the one thing I can agree with.

LA_Raiders
07-20-2014, 05:58 PM
Lol, this PSD "official" player all time is a joke.

alexander_37
07-20-2014, 06:00 PM
Hey alexander_37,
Wow, this is a bit mind-boggling.
DHoward being "the most physically gifted C ever" - whoa nelly!
Russell was a phenomenal athlete with amazing leaping ability (there's a video of him going to the rim FROM the foul line, while leaping another player!).
Wilt, imo, would easily be the #1 Center (at least since Shaq) and, as they say, "It wouldn't even be close."
He was a once-in-a-century FREAK, so ... - well, that kind of says it right there.

How are a number of other centers (DRob, Hakeem just to name the first two off the top of my head) NOT "more physically gifted" centers than DHoward?

Shaq playing a lot of games out of game-shape - is the one thing I can agree with.

Dwight is stronger and a better leaper although Hakeem is quicker. Howard is quicker and a better leaper than Robinson.

I am not saying Dwight is the best Center ever nor am I saying he is a top 10 or even top 20 Center ever. I am saying he is one of if not the most athletically gifted centers ever when you factor is Speed, strength, leaping, and quickness. Russell is up there and an in shape Shaq is up there but those are the top 3 IMO. Wilt in his day was easily dominant but compared to these guys he is a little slow and not a great leaper. Is he a physical freak? Hell yes just a tier down from the top 3 along with Robinson and Hakeem.

I still think Hakeem is a top 3 maybe even the best C ever when I am feeling super homerish. But Dwight is a better pure athlete. Guys liek Hakeem, KAJ, and Robinson relied a lot more on skills than physical gifts.

Pablonovi
07-20-2014, 06:19 PM
Dwight is stronger and a better leaper although Hakeem is quicker. Howard is quicker and a better leaper than Robinson.

I am not saying Dwight is the best Center ever nor am I saying he is a top 10 or even top 20 Center ever. I am saying he is one of if not the most athletically gifted centers ever when you factor is Speed, strength, leaping, and quickness. Russell is up there and an in shape Shaq is up there but those are the top 3 IMO. Wilt in his day was easily dominant but compared to these guys he is a little slow and not a great leaper. Is he a physical freak? Hell yes just a tier down from the top 3 along with Robinson and Hakeem.

I still think Hakeem is a top 3 maybe even the best C ever when I am feeling super homerish. But Dwight is a better pure athlete. Guys liek Hakeem, KAJ, and Robinson relied a lot more on skills than physical gifts.

Hey alexander_37,
I won't respond/repeat to most of what you say.
Have you seen the video of Wilt, LATE in his career, at the weight of 315 (not his early considerably lower weight) and blocking shots at the height of the top of the backboard? (In his forty's he was playing pro-Volleyball - a game BUILT on coordination annd leaping ability - and he was great at it even then).

Earlier he had been a top-quality long-jumper and high-jumper (both of which are distinct yet related skills DEFINED by leaping ability).

alexander_37
07-20-2014, 06:40 PM
Hey alexander_37,
I won't respond/repeat to most of what you say.
Have you seen the video of Wilt, LATE in his career, at the weight of 315 (not his early considerably lower weight) and blocking shots at the height of the top of the backboard? (In his forty's he was playing pro-Volleyball - a game BUILT on coordination annd leaping ability - and he was great at it even then).

Earlier he had been a top-quality long-jumper and high-jumper (both of which are distinct yet related skills DEFINED by leaping ability).

I haven't seen top of the backboard but middle yes which is pretty impressive. Maybe I was a little wrong on Wilt but I think you are overselling him still. He should probably be moved in to the elite group. However I still contest the insane stories told of him are very exaggerated.

Chronz
07-20-2014, 06:46 PM
How so?


Yes. Dwight Howard may be the most physically gifted C ever, I can't think of another C as explosive as him.
D-Rob, Hakeem, Wilt, Shaq, Gilmore all say hello.


Wilt was a freak in his day but is pretty average looking by today's standards of physical ability.
Wilt is quite literally the biggest freak to ever play the game. You really have no idea how insane this sounds.


The only player I can think of is Shaq who was also lazy and pretty out of shape a lot of the time but if he had the work ethic would be the one player I can think of over Dwight.
Firstly, Shaq was not out of shape and lazy alot of time, he had his lapses, like many other legendary bigmen but if you think he wasn't much more imposing, then you're a horrible judge of talent. Dwight has absolutely nothing on the guys listed above in terms of sheer athleticism.

alexander_37
07-20-2014, 06:50 PM
D-Rob, Hakeem, Wilt, Shaq, Gilmore all say hello.


Wilt is quite literally the biggest freak to ever play the game. You really have no idea how insane this sounds.


Firstly, Shaq was not out of shape and lazy alot of time, he had his lapses, like many other legendary bigmen but if you think he wasn't much more imposing, then you're a horrible judge of talent. Dwight has absolutely nothing on the guys listed above in terms of sheer athleticism.

Dwigth has a higher standing reach than Shaq ( who held the old verified record) despite being much shorter. Again Wilt's legends are exaggerated IMO but I did sell him short.

Chronz
07-20-2014, 07:22 PM
Dwigth has a higher standing reach than Shaq ( who held the old verified record) despite being much shorter.
Thats not standing reach, sportscience measured the highest vertical point in an NBA game, one in which Dwight was able to replicate/exceed, in a staged setting, as opposed to actual NBA game mind you. You cant change ones standing reach. And what exactly is the point here? That he was able to barely outreach Shaq yet is significantly smaller in stature/strength is suppose to help him some how?


Again Wilt's legends are exaggerated IMO but I did sell him short.
Again? Who brought up any legends? Lets stick to the facts, you did more than sell him short. Wilt was THE Freakish athlete, that you even suggest he was in any way average is testament to how little you know about him.

Bruno
07-20-2014, 07:28 PM
Dwight is stronger and a better leaper although Hakeem is quicker. Howard is quicker and a better leaper than Robinson.

I am not saying Dwight is the best Center ever nor am I saying he is a top 10 or even top 20 Center ever. I am saying he is one of if not the most athletically gifted centers ever when you factor is Speed, strength, leaping, and quickness. Russell is up there and an in shape Shaq is up there but those are the top 3 IMO. Wilt in his day was easily dominant but compared to these guys he is a little slow and not a great leaper. Is he a physical freak? Hell yes just a tier down from the top 3 along with Robinson and Hakeem.

I still think Hakeem is a top 3 maybe even the best C ever when I am feeling super homerish. But Dwight is a better pure athlete. Guys liek Hakeem, KAJ, and Robinson relied a lot more on skills than physical gifts.

wilt is the most athletic center in NBA history.

Pablonovi
07-20-2014, 08:42 PM
Dwigth has a higher standing reach than Shaq ( who held the old verified record) despite being much shorter. Again Wilt's legends are exaggerated IMO but I did sell him short.

Hey alexander_37,
I don't know to what legends about Wilt you are referring; but dozens of guys from the 60s say the same things about his: speed, quickness, strength, stamina, leaping ability (blocking 26-28 shots in one game), etc. Arnold Schwarzenneger went with Wilt to a weight room and says Wilt (with no practice and bad form) lifted more weight than the heaviest lifters - a lot more weight. Then Wilt & Andre the Giant took turns lifting Arnold up, WITH ONE ARM, like he was a rag doll. (I saw Wilt do that in games, once lifting two guys simultaneously to break up a fight, "We'll have none of that here." (I watched Wilt's entire career; and saw him LIVE a few times with the Harlem Globetrotters the year before he entered the NBA. I don't remember reading anything or hearing anything in video-interviews of his contemporaries; that doesn't match what I saw Wilt do out on the court.)

Having been a fan of a number of sports over the last half-century, it is my opinion that Wilt was THE GREATEST ATHLETE OF THE ENTIRE 20TH CENTURY. (not just basketball player, but all-sports)

Chronz
07-21-2014, 01:56 AM
Hey alexander_37,
I don't know to what legends about Wilt you are referring; but dozens of guys from the 60s say the same things about his: speed, quickness, strength, stamina, leaping ability (blocking 26-28 shots in one game), etc. Arnold Schwarzenneger went with Wilt to a weight room and says Wilt (with no practice and bad form) lifted more weight than the heaviest lifters - a lot more weight. Then Wilt & Andre the Giant took turns lifting Arnold up, WITH ONE ARM, like he was a rag doll. (I saw Wilt do that in games, once lifting two guys simultaneously to break up a fight, "We'll have none of that here." (I watched Wilt's entire career; and saw him LIVE a few times with the Harlem Globetrotters the year before he entered the NBA. I don't remember reading anything or hearing anything in video-interviews of his contemporaries; that doesn't match what I saw Wilt do out on the court.)

Having been a fan of a number of sports over the last half-century, it is my opinion that Wilt was THE GREATEST ATHLETE OF THE ENTIRE 20TH CENTURY. (not just basketball player, but all-sports)

Its ****ing ridiculous how ignorant you have to be to dismiss all of Wilt's accomplishment and peer respect (in terms of strength) as legend. Nothing ruffles my jimmies like ignorance of older players.

Pablonovi
07-21-2014, 12:17 PM
Its ****ing ridiculous how ignorant you have to be to dismiss all of Wilt's accomplishment and peer respect (in terms of strength) as legend. Nothing ruffles my jimmies like ignorance of older players.

Boy Does Ignorance "Get My Gourd"; Especially When The "Guilty Party" Is ...... ME !

Hey High Horse,

Forgive me (for doing this to someone whose opinions I highly admire), my main man, but aren't you the guy that said, "I've probably been criminally underrating Elgin Baylor." ???

hehe

(Sometimes the truth hurts; but you're one of the very few people who seem to have NO problem admitting your mistakes and/or weaknesses. I'd like to think I am of similar quality in this regards. (But I might be biased about it?))

I don't wear jimmies, jammies or bleepies (to bed); but yeah, I saw the dude LIVE in the flesh, I saw a ton of his games on TV "live". (I also even "met" him in person - I was standing right next to him in the San Diego Sports Arena, at a game. He was sitting, he was about my height! I couldn't utter a word, and he gave me his unique smile of: complete understanding, mild amusement, and great joy at everything in life! He knew he was a FREAK of nature and he was NOT arrogant about it - he just drew great pleasure from just about everything in life.)

btw, Having seen the entire careers of ALL GOAT Top 25 (well, half of Pettit's if he's included), ignorance of older players DOES rub me the wrong way too. But then ignorance generally does that; the worst of all is when the ignorant person turns out to be ...

ME!

When THAT person is ignorant; that's when I get most upset; it doesn't sit well, what a bummer! Given that, I've spent the last half-century trying to reduce my own ignorance down to the lowest possible minimum. Especially about important things (like how the world works); and about some relatively-unimportant things - like the NBA.

Chronz
07-21-2014, 01:03 PM
I am ignorant of Baylors game/history. But I would never say hes an average player in any sense the way he did with Wilt. But yeah, its not that serious

MTar786
07-21-2014, 01:50 PM
This is my view

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Shaq
4. Wilt
5. Lebron
6. Kobe
7. Magic
8. Hakeem
9. Bird
10. Duncan

fixed

Pablonovi
07-21-2014, 02:13 PM
This is my view

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Shaq
4. Wilt
5. Lebron
6. Kobe
7. Magic
8. Hakeem
9. Bird
10. Duncan

fixed

Hey MTar786,
Seeing as I have 8 of your 10 guys in my GOAT Top 10; AND, the other two, Hakeem and Bird, just outside it (in my GOAT #s 11-15 grouping); AND that, as I do, you have Bird higher than Russelll; I'd say you have one fine list.

NYKalltheway
07-23-2014, 07:13 AM
Athleticism is not basketball talent. That's all I need to say following the replies I got.
ThuglifeJ gets the point ;)
Kobe of course is a great talent, I'd place him somewhere between 15-20 of all time following that list.

Lebron is a very good basketball player who overwhelms everyone due to athleticism. Strip him completely of his athleticism and you're left with a better version of Hedo Turkoglu. His athleticism is what makes him a top player today. Without it, he does not stand out. Same applied to Shaq of course. If Shaq could not jump and run, he'd be useless. Talentwise, they're not in the top-whatever. Overall, they are great players.

XpLiCiTT
07-23-2014, 12:16 PM
Athleticism is not basketball talent. That's all I need to say following the replies I got.
ThuglifeJ gets the point ;)
Kobe of course is a great talent, I'd place him somewhere between 15-20 of all time following that list.

Lebron is a very good basketball player who overwhelms everyone due to athleticism. Strip him completely of his athleticism and you're left with a better version of Hedo Turkoglu. His athleticism is what makes him a top player today. Without it, he does not stand out. Same applied to Shaq of course. If Shaq could not jump and run, he'd be useless. Talentwise, they're not in the top-whatever. Overall, they are great players.

LeBron is not talented because he is freakishly-athletic? Okay, got it. :rolleyes:

Pablonovi
07-23-2014, 10:39 PM
LeBron is not talented because he is freakishly-athletic? Okay, got it. :rolleyes:

Hey XpLiCiTT,
I'm not exactly getting the point and/or distinction myself either.

Hey NYKalltheway,
If we could subtract all the athleticism from all the NBA Greats, what would be left that could be clearly identified as "talent"?

valade16
07-24-2014, 12:11 PM
Not imo skills are worked on athleticisim is talent

I disagree here. I've met a ton of guys who are incredibly athletic, they could run all day, lift a truck, jump out of the gym, etc. and they sucked massively at basketball because they had no coordination and didn't know how to play.

Talent is the combination of athleticism and skills. Dwight, while great, is not a top 10 Center based on his talent. Athleticism alone maybe, but Kareem wasn't nearly as athletic and we all know who the better player is.

Chronz
07-26-2014, 12:21 AM
Seriously?

How did Pablo get banned?