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View Full Version : Michael Finley or Jerry Stackhouse?



Clippersfan86
07-14-2014, 02:38 PM
These guys are forgotten because they played in the era of the likes of Iverson, Kobe, Carter, Allen, Wade, Ginobili etc (late 90's through 00's). Both played in uptempo systems through most of their career, which seems to have inflated their stats quite a bit (especially Stackhouse). Stackhouse was horrible when it came to efficiency, but put up the better prime numbers. One peaked a little higher, one had a longer prime.

Stackhouse

Career stats: 17 ppg, 3 rpg, 3.3 apg. 41/31/82 career shooting percentages.

Peak year: 29.8 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 5.1 apg. 40/35/82 shooting percentages. Had a 4 year prime before a rapid decline.



Finley

Career stats: 15.7 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 2.9 apg. 44.5/37.5/81 career shooting percentages.

Peak year: 22.6 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg. 46/40/82 shooting percentages. Had a 7 year prime before the decline started.




Early on my feeling is to take Michael Finley.

goingfor28
07-14-2014, 02:40 PM
Did not realize Stackhouse was that mediocre overall. Figured he was around 22/5/4 per game

Clippersfan86
07-14-2014, 02:41 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61c823s1Hwc

Film of Finley. Damn I didn't realize how often this guy posterized people!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MjDd-VbthU

Jerry Stackhouse college and pros mix.

kobe4thewinbang
07-14-2014, 02:46 PM
Definitely Finley. More balanced player, better shooting, better passing, more consistent career. Nice peak.

NYKnickFanatic
07-14-2014, 02:50 PM
Can't go wrong with either one, IMO, but I would take Finley.

king4day
07-14-2014, 02:53 PM
I'd go Finley. Will always have a soft spot for him for being drafted by Phoenix.

Sadds The Gr8
07-14-2014, 02:54 PM
Finley ez

valade16
07-14-2014, 03:02 PM
Finley went out to warm up before the blazers-mavs playoff game and watching him warm up, he didn't miss a single shot.

He, Nash and Nowitzki were a great trio to watch.

KingPosey
07-14-2014, 03:15 PM
Sayin Finley declined is misleading. He went to the Spurs and sacrificed his numbers for the team. Pop continually gets wing players to do that.

kozelkid
07-14-2014, 03:19 PM
Finley for me. Loved him and those Dallas teams with Nash and Dirk. Dude was a beast and I'm still bitter the Bulls picked ****ing Jason Caffey right before him. Would of been great for him to learn under MJ for a few years before taking over.

Stackhouse, though talented, was just too much of a chucker.

P&GRealist
07-14-2014, 03:21 PM
Michael Finley was a beautiful player, and on top of that a beautiful man with those buck teeth.

slaker619
07-14-2014, 03:22 PM
There both great if you want defense tho Finley and the scoring is with Stackhouse I'd have to stick with stackhouse tho he was a key player for mavs in championship loss

kingsdelez24
07-14-2014, 03:24 PM
Sayin Finley declined is misleading. He went to the Spurs and sacrificed his numbers for the team. Pop continually gets wing players to do that.

He averaged 15 a game in his last year with Dallas. Its definitely safe to say he declined while in Dallas

Clippersfan86
07-14-2014, 03:25 PM
Stackhouse was the better defender if I recall.

Mr.B
07-14-2014, 04:02 PM
I will always love what Finley did for the Mavs organization. Overall I think he was the better player. Early in his career he was actually a really good defender. However when Don Nelson go to Dallas he coached his teams to no play defense and in a way that kind of ruined Finley's game. And yes he did definitely posterize a lot of guys! Especially guys that played for Minnesota. They had a center I think was named Rasho Nasterovic (or something like that) that seemed like a magnet for getting posterized by Finley. He did have his flaws though. He never really had the best handles, especially in traffic. He use to kill me with some of his turnovers. He did have a great jump stop move that was damn near impossible to stop in his prime. By the time he left Dallas though he was clearly on the decline. A lot of fans was upset that he wet to the Spurs but for all the things he did for Dallas he deserved to win that ring. And in case you didn't know Cuban hired him a couple years ago to work with the scouting department. He attends every summer league game.

As for Stackhouse, he had something that Finley never had. An attitude. By the time he got to Dallas he brought a "don't F with me attitude" that Dallas needed. He was an awesome 6th man in Dallas and really they are very comparable players. At the end of the day though if I had a choice between either in their prime I'm taking Finley every time.

MrfadeawayJB
07-14-2014, 04:30 PM
Finley just seems like a better player and teammate

b@llhog24
07-14-2014, 04:41 PM
Finley. His style of play clashes less with better players.

jaayytheillest
07-14-2014, 04:45 PM
Finley for the cartwheel he did in the 98 slam dunk contest lol

Mr.B
07-14-2014, 05:58 PM
Finley for the cartwheel he did in the 98 slam dunk contest lol

Haha! Oh man, that was really bad!

Ebbs
07-14-2014, 06:00 PM
Stack was easily the better defender and athlete. But Finley was more stable on offense. A lot less wild nights

JasonJohnHorn
07-14-2014, 11:18 PM
This isn't even a question for me. Finley is head-and-shoulders above Stackhouse.

Far better shooter, better rebounder, better passer and a WAY fawking better defender.

Finley was a team guy who took on a smaller role because he played with Nash and Dirk, but you put him on the Detroit of Philly teams that Stackhouse was on, and they are WAY better with Finley than Stackhouse.


And I cannot stress the defense enough. There were nights when Finley played like Jordan; got it done on offense, grabbed some boars, set players up and was a lock-down defender. But like Duncan, he always played into the team and put the team first.

People are going to say that I am crazy when I say this, but I honestly believe in terms of talent, Finley was right up there with Kobe. They played in very different situations, and they have a very different approach to the game, and Kobe is obviously more likely to make it to the highlight reel, but they were both great all-around players, and in my opinion (and I don't care about 'All-Defensive teams'), Finely was a better defender. I obviously think Kobe was better, but put those guys head-to-head in a seven game series in their prime, and I think you'd be surprised to see that Finley would keep up with Kobe surprisingly well.


Stackhouse would get blown out of the water by Kobe in a 7 game series. It wouldn't even be close.


Finley here without question.

Chronz
07-14-2014, 11:23 PM
Can't go wrong with either one, IMO, but I would take Finley.

You can go very wrong with one of them.

Finley is the only respectable choice.

JasonJohnHorn
07-14-2014, 11:25 PM
He averaged 15 a game in his last year with Dallas. Its definitely safe to say he declined while in Dallas

Just because somebody gets fewer minutes and few shots, doesn't mean they are in decline.

He was playing 40+ minutes for several seasons in Dallas because they didn't have much of an option to back him up coming off the bench. Just because the team has more options and rely less on a guy doesn't mean he is less of a player. Look at Wade and Bosh playing with LBJ, or Garnett and Allen playing with Pierce.... all these guys saw number drop significantly but were all still playing at a high level.

Finley's numbers dropped because he was getting starting minutes instead of leading the league in minutes played because they was a change in coaching. Looking at his percentages and his per36 rebounding numbers, he stayed consistent with his peak numbers until he was 35. His scoring and assist averages when down because he got the ball less, but he was still shooting it just as well and still rebounding well.

Stats don't tell everything, but Finely played at a high level until his last season I think.

NYKnickFanatic
07-14-2014, 11:26 PM
You can go very wrong with one of them.

Finley is the only respectable choice.

Why you gotta be so rude?

cmellofan15
07-14-2014, 11:29 PM
I have a Finley basketball card of him doing a reverse with the heading "skywalker", so he's the obvious choice :laugh2:

JasonJohnHorn
07-14-2014, 11:29 PM
Stackhouse was the better defender if I recall.


I may be way off base here, but I don't remember Stackhouse being much of a defender at all. He got his share of steals but he took a lot of gambles to get them. I saw a lot of Stackhouse in Detroit and a little in Philly, and guys played well against him offensively, but Finely was a great man-to-man defender and always had a hand in a guys face when I watched him play. He knew how to put pressure on a guy trying to score the ball. Nelson wasn't much of a defensive coach, but Finley was a great defensive player, so people don't often associate Finley with defense because of Nelson's system.

Clippersfan86
07-14-2014, 11:31 PM
I don't think either were "great". I think were both better than average at times.

Mr.B
07-14-2014, 11:37 PM
Just because somebody gets fewer minutes and few shots, doesn't mean they are in decline.

He was playing 40+ minutes for several seasons in Dallas because they didn't have much of an option to back him up coming off the bench. Just because the team has more options and rely less on a guy doesn't mean he is less of a player. Look at Wade and Bosh playing with LBJ, or Garnett and Allen playing with Pierce.... all these guys saw number drop significantly but were all still playing at a high level.

Finley's numbers dropped because he was getting starting minutes instead of leading the league in minutes played because they was a change in coaching. Looking at his percentages and his per36 rebounding numbers, he stayed consistent with his peak numbers until he was 35. His scoring and assist averages when down because he got the ball less, but he was still shooting it just as well and still rebounding well.

Stats don't tell everything, but Finely played at a high level until his last season I think.
You're right about playing 40+ minutes many games early in his career. That's another reason I would take Finley over Stack house, his durability. Dude rarely ever missed a game.

Chronz
07-15-2014, 12:43 AM
This isn't even a question for me. Finley is head-and-shoulders above Stackhouse.

Far better shooter, better rebounder, better passer and a WAY fawking better defender.

Finley was a team guy who took on a smaller role because he played with Nash and Dirk, but you put him on the Detroit of Philly teams that Stackhouse was on, and they are WAY better with Finley than Stackhouse.


And I cannot stress the defense enough. There were nights when Finley played like Jordan; got it done on offense, grabbed some boars, set players up and was a lock-down defender. But like Duncan, he always played into the team and put the team first.

People are going to say that I am crazy when I say this, but I honestly believe in terms of talent, Finley was right up there with Kobe. They played in very different situations, and they have a very different approach to the game, and Kobe is obviously more likely to make it to the highlight reel, but they were both great all-around players, and in my opinion (and I don't care about 'All-Defensive teams'), Finely was a better defender. I obviously think Kobe was better, but put those guys head-to-head in a seven game series in their prime, and I think you'd be surprised to see that Finley would keep up with Kobe surprisingly well.


Stackhouse would get blown out of the water by Kobe in a 7 game series. It wouldn't even be close.


Finley here without question.

Agreed on Finley winning this easily but you went full-R by comparing him to Kobe.

Remember when Finley had that career defining series or even a heroic showing in defeat ala many greats who didn't win.....

Mr.B
07-15-2014, 02:09 AM
I do have an interesting fact about Stackhouse. He once beat Yao Ming on a jump ball when he was playing for Dallas.

JasonJohnHorn
07-15-2014, 11:11 AM
Agreed on Finley winning this easily but you went full-R by comparing him to Kobe.

Remember when Finley had that career defining series or even a heroic showing in defeat ala many greats who didn't win.....

You are very like correct sir. I realize it will not be an accepted position.

I feel like some players are certain situations that don't allow them to excel, or that they have an approach that doesn't generate the kind of stats that make people open their eyes. Finley is one of those guys.

He was talented and driven, but team orientated, and had been been drafted by a bad team that ran every play through him, and had he had Kobe's approach where he wanted the ball all the time, he would have been scoring 30+ a game, but he never wanted to hog the ball and was always a willing passer, and he had a BAD coach early in his career (Nelson didn't know how to optimize Finley).

Kobe is obviously better than Finley, no doubt. But I think that when Finely is playing his best, he can go toe-to-toe with Kobe. Had Finley been paired with Duncan and Parker for his prime, instead of Nash and Dirk, people would have a lot more respect for Finely.

But, yes, it may be hyperble to compare him with Kobe.

Chronz
07-15-2014, 12:08 PM
You are very like correct sir. I realize it will not be an accepted position.

I feel like some players are certain situations that don't allow them to excel, or that they have an approach that doesn't generate the kind of stats that make people open their eyes. Finley is one of those guys.

He was talented and driven, but team orientated, and had been been drafted by a bad team that ran every play through him, and had he had Kobe's approach where he wanted the ball all the time, he would have been scoring 30+ a game, but he never wanted to hog the ball and was always a willing passer, and he had a BAD coach early in his career (Nelson didn't know how to optimize Finley).

Kobe is obviously better than Finley, no doubt. But I think that when Finely is playing his best, he can go toe-to-toe with Kobe. Had Finley been paired with Duncan and Parker for his prime, instead of Nash and Dirk, people would have a lot more respect for Finely.

But, yes, it may be hyperble to compare him with Kobe.

Thing is we saw Kobe in multiple situations, his individual stats went up in harder situations, his efficiency was pretty stagnant throughout. A clear sign of a player who can adapt to many environments, albeit with slightly different results, still, none as drastic as Finley. Just how special of a situation does Finley need to be in, in order to put up whatever numbers you think he needs? And at what point do we just stop speculating and realize what a giant weakness it is? Couldn't we say this about most talented players who underachieved?

If you're saying he could have been more productive and thus closer to Kobe than before, while still admitting Kobe was CLEARLY superior, then I would agree. I just dont see him playing him to a standstill if all else were equal. Like Richard Hamilton technically played Kobe to a standstill in their series, but Kobe had it MUCH harder.


I dont see how playing with Duncan and Parker instead of Nash and Dirk is any different either, at least in the sense of his own production. Weren't you making the case that Finley didn't decline by the time he joined the Spurs. Well, why wasn't he producing in that environment if its the exact scenario you described above? You either admit he declined or admit not playing with that duo isn't what held him back. Cant have it both ways friend.


Its funny tho, Im struggling to pin point just when Finley really started to decline. Statistically, its hard to prove really but I always felt it came in his final year with Dallas.

Chronz
07-15-2014, 12:12 PM
Good to be debating anything these days tho. Thnks

KnicksorBust
07-15-2014, 12:20 PM
It's funny because my gut reaction was "Stackhouse clearly." But now of course you have to go back on basketball reference and check their advanced numbers. :laugh:

Chronz
07-15-2014, 03:16 PM
It's funny because my gut reaction was "Stackhouse clearly." But now of course you have to go back on basketball reference and check their advanced numbers. :laugh:

Yikes....

Inefficient chucker who got in the way of his teammates vs another chucker(better defender doe) and was only so because he lacked the teammates to free him up, upon acquiring said teammates/role, Finley was a productive+efficient force. Stack played in several roles, still inefficient. Hes like a lesser Antoine Walker to me, in that you couldn't find a role for him and his team to thrive in.

KnicksorBust
07-15-2014, 03:31 PM
Yikes....

Inefficient chucker who got in the way of his teammates vs another chucker(better defender doe) and was only so because he lacked the teammates to free him up, upon acquiring said teammates/role, Finley was a productive+efficient force. Stack played in several roles, still inefficient. Hes like a lesser Antoine Walker to me, in that you couldn't find a role for him and his team to thrive in.

Well that's the thing. This whole statistical revolution wasn't available to me in high school. You got North Carolina Jerry Stackhouse putting up a ton of points. I also would have incorrectly guessed he made more all-star teams but apparently it was the same. Stack averaged almost 30ppg (albeit inefficiently) one season. That must have been one blurred my memory.

Is it possible that using statistics and context can help me further evaluate and compare players?

Mr.B
07-15-2014, 03:35 PM
Yikes....

Inefficient chucker who got in the way of his teammates vs another chucker(better defender doe) and was only so because he lacked the teammates to free him up, upon acquiring said teammates/role, Finley was a productive+efficient force. Stack played in several roles, still inefficient. Hes like a lesser Antoine Walker to me, in that you couldn't find a role for him and his team to thrive in.

Stackhouse thrived as a 6th man in Dallas. He was top 5 in 6th man voting pretty much every year he was in Dallas.

As for comparing Finley to Kobe... I'm the biggest Finley supporter and fan however it's really not even close. Kobe was a superior player in pretty much every aspect. I think the better comparison would be Finley to Grant Hill (before the injuries). If Finley was in the same situation as Hill was in Detroit he likely would have dominated.

Chronz
07-15-2014, 03:52 PM
Stackhouse thrived as a 6th man in Dallas. He was top 5 in 6th man voting pretty much every year he was in Dallas.
He was still a quality player but I dont think of him and his team thriving in that role, at least not in the Michael Finley sense, where both the team and the player are playing at an optimal (aka above league average efficiency) level.


As for comparing Finley to Kobe... I'm the biggest Finley supporter and fan however it's really not even close. Kobe was a superior player in pretty much every aspect. I think the better comparison would be Finley to Grant Hill (before the injuries). If Finley was in the same situation as Hill was in Detroit he likely would have dominated.

Doubtful. Im not seeing what prevented all that in the first place.

TheNumber37
07-15-2014, 04:02 PM
Stackhouse was on trading cards.. Finley was not.

The bestter question is, is either really better than Joe Johnson?

Mr.B
07-15-2014, 04:06 PM
He was still a quality player but I dont think of him and his team thriving in that role, at least not in the Michael Finley sense, where both the team and the player are playing at an optimal (aka above league average efficiency) level.


Doubtful. Im not seeing what prevented all that in the first place.

I think the main thing that puts Finley behind Kobe is/was Kobe's killer instinct. I've never been a Kobe fan but that guy had a killer instinct that can be matched by very few in NBA history. Finley had all the talent and athleticism to be Kobe's equal and on some nights showed it but he never had that killer instinct to just rip a teams heart out. Kobe and the Lakers did it to the Mavs on a few occasions. A perfect example was a game where the Lakers came back from a 24 point deficit within about 10 minutes and win the game. Finley helped them get that lead but couldn't finish. Kobe took that game over and ripped the Mavs (and their fans) hearts out. To me it's still one of the worse defeats in Mavs history. I can still see freakin Vlade Divac's stupid mug celebrating.

Mr.B
07-15-2014, 04:11 PM
Stackhouse was on trading cards.. Finley was not.

The bestter question is, is either really better than Joe Johnson?

Yes he was to the statement and the question. I have several Finley cards still (somewhere in a box in my garage). I would say Finley is better than JJ because he put an entire franchises hopes on his back and kept them relevant and brought them out of NBA obscurity. If it wasn't for Finley I honestly don't think the Mavericks would even be in Dallas right now. He was the lone bright spot on a horrible team for many years before Nash and Dirk got here. Joe Johnson has never done anything close to that. He's had other quality players everywhere he's been.