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View Full Version : Article: How is Dan Gilbert's petulance, poor plan rewarded with LeBron James?



Aust
07-13-2014, 11:17 PM
I found this article nostalgic. I don't agree with everything, but the author does make some interesting points.


The point of competitive systems is to reward superior strategy and engagement with success. The NBA has the lottery, but its purpose has been to even talent discrepancies using a weighted chance system to make tanking less attractive. But the entire league isn't supposed to be determined by luck. Luck plays a part in which No. 1 picks become transcendent and which wind up as punch lines. It plays a part in injuries and, to a degree, the bounce of the ball off the rim.

Luck should not decide who's good and who's not. And more than anything, bad management seemingly should limit how much success is achieved, even if you do happen to hit the jackpot in the lottery once.

And yet, here we are.

The big winners of the 2014 NBA offseason are the Cleveland Cavaliers and the big losers are the Houston Rockets. Except Houston has been run well, and Cleveland has been a disaster. Go figure.

After James left in 2010, Dan Gilbert was ... a little upset. There's the letter, sure. But Gilbert pretty much went into petulant child mode. Remember, he was at the forefront of owner outcry over the nixed the Chris Paul deal that would have sent him to the Lakers. After what the Heat pulled, Gilbert essentially decided superteams are the mortal and moral enemy of his empire. Beyond that, he relentlessly pursued the playoffs. He seemed desperate to land a first-round matchup with Miami, to provide Cleveland with a chance at redemption, even though they would have been waxed. This is in part because of how much money he would have made off such an alignment.

He took shortcut after shortcut trying to get back to the playoffs. There was no patience, no rebuilding plan. Drafting Dion Waiters, trying to nab a transcendent surprise talent. Signing Jarrett Jack. Keeping Anderson Varejao. The Cavs spurned a methodical, well-planned rebuild in favor of a win-now-at-all-costs approach. And it was catastrophic. In a system like the NFL, where the worst team gets the No. 1 overall pick and so on, the Cavaliers would have been stuck in neutral, trying to find their way out of mud Gilbert put them in.

Yet the "karmic" gods, or whatever, have rewarded Gilbert, despite his failings. Three No. 1 picks in four years. Three. It's like the basketball gods were giving Gilbert the ultimate "Good Job, Good Effort." That stacked the roster, even if you don't think Anthony Bennett will ever amount to anything. (P.S.: It's too soon for that, the kid has looked good in Summer League.) Remember, in 2012 this same team was partying at the lottery and yelling, "We're never coming back here again!" The Cavs were back the next year. And they won. Again.

And then there's the lockout.

In the lockout, Gilbert led the charge of owners seeking supreme tax penalties on superteams, making them nearly impossible to maintain (beyond Miami, look at what's going on in Brooklyn). It was his side pushing for a bigger percentage of Basketball Related Income. It was his side putting more restrictive limits on what the max stars could make.

Everything that frustrated LeBron James about this season?

Gilbert did that. Everything that James and the players have championed for? Micky Arison may not have been gung-ho about it, but he was more on that side that Gilbert's.

From Bleacher Report.com:

But he couldn't even keep all of his veterans, including one of James' favorites, in part because of the league's new punitive tax measures. Those measures, strongly supported by spurned Cavaliers owner Dan Gilbert, were directed at least in part at breaking up Big Three-type rosters, or at least making them extraordinarily expensive to maintain and bolster. And after three injury-plagued seasons, Miller was sacrificed, with Micky Arison using the amnesty provision to save roughly $17 million in luxury taxes for the 2013-14 season and create some future flexibility.

That decision backfired, and not just because Miller miraculously played all 82 games for Memphis, shooting 45 percent from three-point range. James started the season irritated by Miller's departure, played the season irritated that Miller wasn't available to fill in for Wade and finished the season irritated that the veterans left behind -- without useful youthful reinforcements -- had broken down. It's impossible to know how much that played into his decision to return to Cleveland, or at least to return earlier than he anticipated, since he wrote in the essay that he always planned to someday.

But it certainly didn't help.

via After LeBron James' Departure, Miami Heat's NBA Debts Keep Piling Up | Bleacher Report.

So Gilbert took vindictive measures against a system that cost him a superstar because he failed to secure enough talent to keep the superstar at home. He ran the team into the ground trying to make the playoffs to no avail. He fired his coach three times in four seasons (including the same guy twice!) and fired his GM. And he made efforts to ensure James and superstars like him would be paid less while also ensuring it would not be viable for those stars to team up with other superstar talent for a long period of time.

For this, he was rewarded with three No. 1 picks and the best player on the planet signing with his team as a free agent.

Life's not fair, but shouldn't it at least make sense at some point in this process?

Gilbert and the Cavs deserve recognition for not doing anything to prevent James from joining the Cavs. And they made the pitch they needed to. But the situation still reads as "Petulant owner lashes out and constantly strikes out but gets rewarded by luck and LeBron's desire for his kids to grow up in Ohio."

This is like if Wile E. Coyote ("Supergenius") wound up catching the Roadrunner.

Meanwhile, on the other side, here's Daryl Morey. He turned Kevin Martin, Jeremy Lamb and picks into James Harden. He cleared space for Dwight Howard and successfully pitched him after years of building a competitive team while also accumulating assets. He found takers for Omer Asik and Jeremy Lin, contracts he signed because at the time, they were major talent upgrades. He offered Chris Bosh the chance to compete for a title now, in a role preventing him from having to bang down low and would maximize his talents in a tech-savvy organization with no state income tax.

Instead, he got Trevor Ariza.

The NBA's not fair. And you can ask Derrick Rose, Kobe Bryant, Greg Oden ... or former Bucks owner Herb Kohl, who tried to build a winner the right way during his tenure. But the events of the past four days reveal more than just that simple imbalance. It reveals a legitimate flaw in the NBA's design.

If Gilbert and the other over-pursuant owners hadn't smashed-and-grabbed their gains in the last CBA negotiations (or if the player's union was competent enough to fight back), this doesn't happen. If probabilities don't hit some sort of Hitchhikers-Guide-To-The-Galaxy random-engine level in the lottery, this doesn't happen. But it did.

For all the hemming and hawing about tanking, at least those teams had a plan. They accepted their fates and wanted to build the right way. The Cavaliers instead jumped off a cliff believing they could fly and happened to sprout the wings of fortune. The Rockets designed a masterful engine that would take them to the heavens, and they ran out of fuel before they could escape the atmosphere.

The Spurs are an expertly run team and they have the title. The best-run teams will, over time, be better and poorly run teams the losers. But this remains a fascinating point. The Cavaliers slammed their head into the wall so many times they broke through to Valhalla. The Rockets are good not great after a grand design. There's a lot that goes into this winning thing.

It's better to be lucky than good. But you'd think in a competitive environment that being good would help more and being bad would hurt just as much.

Link (http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24619010/how-is-dan-gilberts-petulance-poor-plan-rewarded-with-lebron-james)

And the Cavs could be landing Kevin Love soon. Sounds like a superteam to me..... How big of a hypocrite is this guy? Seriously, **** this dude. Nothing personal to Lebron or Cavs fans but I hope your team is agonizingly average(I would say horrible, but I don't want you stockpiling more #1 picks) and never accomplishes anything.

goingfor28
07-13-2014, 11:25 PM
Lebron left and they sucked. Not hard to figure out. LeBron's back and they'll no doubt be a top 3 seed, likely top 2

Raps08-09 Champ
07-13-2014, 11:28 PM
You suck and hopefully luck gives you the #1 picks. That's what happened.

Oefarmy2005
07-14-2014, 10:25 AM
There is no luck involved in getting 3 #1 picks in 4 years - it's a scam.

raiderfaninTX
07-14-2014, 10:49 AM
I found this article nostalgic. I don't agree with everything, but the author does make some interesting points.



Link (http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24619010/how-is-dan-gilberts-petulance-poor-plan-rewarded-with-lebron-james)

And the Cavs could be landing Kevin Love soon. Sounds like a superteam to me..... How big of a hypocrite is this guy? Seriously, **** this dude. Nothing personal to Lebron or Cavs fans but I hope your team is agonizingly average(I would say horrible, but I don't want you stockpiling more #1 picks) and never accomplishes anything.

Please cry more, hope Jeremy Lin delivers you to the promise land

beasted86
07-14-2014, 01:08 PM
There is no luck involved in getting 3 #1 picks in 4 years - it's a scam.

:clap:

slashsnake
07-14-2014, 02:15 PM
:clap:

Why Cleveland though? Why not NY, LA, anywhere but Cleveland. Sure its a feel good story for his return, but come on. Cleveland isn't exactly a hotbed for international glamour. People aren't saying "I'm leaving this town for to be famous and glamorous in Cleveland". If they did scam the draft to get him somewhere, why send him to a location where he makes the league the least amount of money? Lebron in LA if they had gotten the #1 pick would be a million (or 100 million) times better for the leagues financial health. Boston, Chicago, NY, LA, stay in Miami. It's a conspiracy theory that just doesn't pass the BS test when you look at it.

If the NBA could move its stars where they wanted, Durant, Westbrook, Love, Melo, Lebron, etc. would all be playing in those cities. It would be a choice a guy with zero business savvy could see makes the most financial sense to the league. So they take the risk of a huge financial loss (scamming the draft for four years and the risk of the league being found out) to make a clearly bad financial choice? It sounds neat on the surface, but when you look into it, makes no sense.

Saddletramp
07-14-2014, 03:15 PM
And the Cavs could be landing Kevin Love soon. Sounds like a superteam to me..... How big of a hypocrite is this guy? Seriously, **** this dude. Nothing personal to Lebron or Cavs fans but I hope your team is agonizingly average(I would say horrible, but I don't want you stockpiling more #1 picks) and never accomplishes anything.

This. After what he said after LeBron left and how he was the guy leading the NO SUPERTEAMS charge knowing that being in Cleveland, he couldn't afford it, **** this guy. I hope the Cavs fall apart and next time maybe the fans will blame the real reason their team sucks, not LeBron. And I got to admit, I lost some respect for LeBron going back to that piece of garbage. I get if you want your kids growing where you grew up in Ohio, but I lost respect for LeBron for going back to work for that jerk after what he did and said.

Raps08-09 Champ
07-14-2014, 03:17 PM
There is no luck involved in getting 3 #1 picks in 4 years - it's a scam.

Prove it.

0nekhmer
07-14-2014, 03:31 PM
I don't consider the cavs to be stacked. Other then kyrie, who isn't even a superstar, they have no real established stars. Yeah they have 4 number 1 picks but benett and wiggins could very well be role players/sixth men. I'm not a big fan of lebron but i respect him a little more for taking this challenge, and if he can win championships there, it would really solidify his dominance

5ass
07-14-2014, 03:39 PM
Like I've said a million times already on PSD, they got to this point with blind luck. The cavs have proven to be one of the most incompetent franchises in the last few years.
That being said, although Gilbert deserves a foot up his ***, the fans deserve a great team, and I'm happy for them.

Big Zo
07-14-2014, 03:44 PM
He'll be known as the guy that lost LeBron TWICE in a year, or two. No worries.

krazylegz
07-14-2014, 03:54 PM
haters gon' hate

Dade County
07-14-2014, 04:02 PM
Prove it.

Why does he have to prove it? Do you know that poster personally and know that he has the connections to prove that the league is rigged or the lottery?

Also, would you believe him if he did bring you want he thought was good enough proof? Or would you start poking holes in it,because he is not a known reporter or source? Even worse, if a story did come out that the league is rigged, all the league would do is ignore it, or come out with a press conference saying that it's a lie, and everyone will go on with their sports lives.

What people would like to happen is players or league reps come out and say that this **** is rigged (more then 20 would have to say it, because if it's only 1 or 2, then the league would crush them publicly).

I'm sure lives would be lost do to unforeseen accidents or drug overdose.

bucketss
07-14-2014, 04:27 PM
the fans of cleveland i guess deserve it but it will always erk me how dan gilbert gets rewarded so heavily after years of tanking.

hugepatsfan
07-14-2014, 04:32 PM
the fans of cleveland i guess deserve it but it will always erk me how dan gilbert gets rewarded so heavily after years of tanking.

Did he ever tank though? He honestly tried to build playoff teams, at least recently. He just sucked at it and always landed in the mid/late lottery. They just got lucky and kept winning #1 picks.

SILVER SEAVER
07-14-2014, 04:35 PM
Conspiracy theorists will tell you this was planned so Cleveland could stack up lottery picks because they can't draw any free agents to go there so when LeBron returned they would have a young core through the draft to build around him. I mean that's three number one picks since he left. If that doesn't sound a little fishy I don't know what is. The Kings have sucked tit for years and how many number one picks have they had in recent memory? They seem to have a permanent lock on picks 7 & 8.

Big Zo
07-14-2014, 04:35 PM
the fans of cleveland i guess deserve it but it will always erk me how dan gilbert gets rewarded so heavily after years of tanking.

Not sure the fans deserve it, either. They're a passionate bunch, but they've been ******** all over LeBron's name the last 4 years, and acted like he ran over their dog when he left.

Oefarmy2005
07-14-2014, 04:36 PM
Prove it.

I can't prove it(off course there is a chance of that happening), but if you want me to calculate the odds of that happening and the odds of my Wolves never moving up in the draft - the numbers will be pretty convincing.

Oefarmy2005
07-14-2014, 04:39 PM
Conspiracy theorists will tell you this was planned so Cleveland could stack up lottery picks because they can't draw any free agents to go there so when LeBron returned they would have a young core through the draft to build around him. I mean that's three number one picks since he left. If that doesn't sound a little fishy I don't know what is. The Kings have sucked tit for years and how many number one picks have they had in recent memory? They seem to have a permanent lock on picks 7 & 8.

I'm with you. I am not a conspiracy theorist, and I am not going to say it's rigged (I half joked before), however, I want the lottery to be live and to have a representative from each team counting the number of balls that go in. I don't even care if it's televised, I just want for each team to be represented - better yet - randomly - just pick a random fan(or a news caster) of the team or something and do the whole thing start to finish in front of their eyes - so I don't even have a point of saying it's fishy and just great/terrible luck.

5ass
07-14-2014, 04:41 PM
I'm with you. I am not a conspiracy theorist, and I am not going to say it's rigged (I half joked before), however, I want the lottery to be live and to have a representative from each team counting the number of balls that go in. I don't even care if it's televised, I just want for each team to be represented - better yet - randomly - just pick a random fan(or a news caster) of the team or something and do the whole thing start to finish in front of their eyes - so I don't even have a point of saying it's fishy and just great/terrible luck.

I believe they do that. (a team representative is present)

NYKNYGNYY
07-14-2014, 04:42 PM
Only reason he's back in Cleveland is because he's from Akron... Now say he got drafted to the bucks originally, I bet he'd have stayed in Miami.

SILVER SEAVER
07-14-2014, 04:50 PM
I'm with you. I am not a conspiracy theorist, and I am not going to say it's rigged (I half joked before), however, I want the lottery to be live and to have a representative from each team counting the number of balls that go in. I don't even care if it's televised, I just want for each team to be represented - better yet - randomly - just pick a random fan(or a news caster) of the team or something and do the whole thing start to finish in front of their eyes - so I don't even have a point of saying it's fishy and just great/terrible luck.

I'm a Bulls fan and I think it was rigged when they landed the number one to sign homegrown Chicago native Rose. These aren't just coincidences. The only reason small market Cleveland gets this lucky is they happen to be in LeBron's home state which he loves. Just watch the Decision show again and tell me did LeBron seem that excited about having to leave Cleveland and become Public Enemy #1 and have people burn his jerseys and spit on them like he was the biggest turncoat in the history of Ohio? The Kings will never land another number pick because they are in a small market and have to compete with Oakland and the two LA teams. Having say a Kyrie or Wiggins play in Sac only means their first few years will be in an abyss of mediocrity with no exposure of their talents. Is it any coincidence to that the Kings were screwed by the refs the whole series against LA so that the Lakers would land in the Finals? This league is rigged when it comes to who they want to have top players, draft picks or who they want representing each conference in the NBA Finals.

SILVER SEAVER
07-14-2014, 04:54 PM
The fact that you don't see the ball come out and shown before the camera is bull. They come out with a team card in an envelope and act like it was watched over by the eye in the sky and no monkey business went on.

SILVER SEAVER
07-14-2014, 04:55 PM
Only reason he's back in Cleveland is because he's from Akron... Now say he got drafted to the bucks originally, I bet he'd have stayed in Miami.

Exactly.

goingfor28
07-14-2014, 04:55 PM
Not sure the fans deserve it, either. They're a passionate bunch, but they've been ******** all over LeBron's name the last 4 years, and acted like he ran over their dog when he left.
Heat fans did the same thing a few days ago.

SILVER SEAVER
07-14-2014, 05:01 PM
Heat fans did the same thing a few days ago.

They will do it now. They had that one Cuban fan on ESPN sounding so illogical and smearing his name right after it was announced. Fans have short memories when it comes to what a player does for a franchise and what LeBron did for Miami was nothing short of spectacular. Four Finals appearances in four years? Are you kidding me? Most of those fans were spoiled and didn't realize what fell on their laps.

verceroth
07-14-2014, 05:54 PM
just going to be that guy and point out that the word "nostalgic" was used to express disgust. Other than that, yes I too am disgusted.

Also, if a love trade is in the works, it's time we start writing to the NBA/Owners to get that deal vetoed. Seems like the right thing to do.

Big Zo
07-14-2014, 05:55 PM
the fans of cleveland i guess deserve it but it will always erk me how dan gilbert gets rewarded so heavily after years of tanking.


Heat fans did the same thing a few days ago.

Yeah, except we didn't.

goingfor28
07-14-2014, 05:59 PM
Yeah, except we didn't.
http://dimemag.com/2014/07/lebron-james-mural-miami-defaced/

Hi

Hotone1401
07-14-2014, 06:02 PM
Prove it.

Disprove it.

slashsnake
07-14-2014, 06:06 PM
Conspiracy theorists will tell you this was planned so Cleveland could stack up lottery picks because they can't draw any free agents to go there so when LeBron returned they would have a young core through the draft to build around him. I mean that's three number one picks since he left. If that doesn't sound a little fishy I don't know what is. The Kings have sucked tit for years and how many number one picks have they had in recent memory? They seem to have a permanent lock on picks 7 & 8.

Yup but they miss the point that they would be cheating to do that for a team that doesn't give them the biggest bang for their buck or even close.

I am trying to find a way for this to make sense...

The NBA games have to be a lot better to get the same draw than if Boston, NY, Chicago, and LA were great. NBA TV viewership doesn't change year to year. Last year it dropped 5%. Why? NY, LA, and Chicago lost 260,000 homes per game. A smaller market team can improve hugely but not have that effect. Golden State saw a 15% increase in their viewership... 11,000 homes. Cleveland lost 70,000 homes in their TV market from the height of Lebron till when he left. That's half the difference of Kobe being out this year.

With 50% of earnings give or take going to revenue sharing, you help 29 teams getting Lebron to NY or LA. You help 1 getting him to Cleveland.

It would be like an inside trader hearing one stock will jump 5% and another 50% with equal risk being caught on both and he invests all his money in the one jumping 5%. So obviously this isn't an NBA thing. This is someone going against the wishes of the league as a whole.

Dan Gilbert is the only one who makes out. So him and the commissioner are in cahoots. But there's been two commissioners here. Silver AND Stern have presided over these drafts. So now we are convincing both to risk their futures. First off Gilbert is taking a huge risk even approaching them about this. I mean if they decided to tape this and catch Gilbert, he's losing his team quicker than Donald Sterling. Then if this came out would the owners sue for that salary back? A risk for sure. Stern made supposedly 23 mil a year. Silver might not make that but basically has a multimillion dollar salary guaranteed in perpetuity until he retires. 30 years like Stern... that's could be a billion dollars he'd be risking with the growth of the league. Or a lot more. If the reports of what Stern makes now is true at 23 mil, that is 1/20th the value of a team today (or less). When he came into the league, he probably wasn't making that much and a team was 16 million. So $800,000 a year max? doubling that salary every year is that pace. We are talking about paying off two guys who are as set as set can be to take this risk for you.

What dollar figure would you take? You are risking potentially a billion dollars here, and a great job. You are trying to pull the wool over the eyes of 29 businessmen, lawyers and financial guru's, and you are making a move that makes your job harder to accomplish (not letting Lebron go to a better market). And how do you hide that transaction? Lets say he asked for 50 mil to pull this off. How do you explain a 50 million dollar increase in your net worth? How do you enjoy that money? You build a house next to Mark Cuban and are seen out on your private yacht, there will be a LOT of questions. Could Gilbert even afford the price you would want for that? Silver and Stern wouldn't need to be morally ambiguous but nefarious to take this.

All that for a CHANCE at Lebron (on a one year deal)? And as Gilbert you are still running the risk of this not even panning out and busting your picks. You draft Derrick Williams instead of Kyrie Irving (a very real option at the time) you wasted a pile of money and took a huge risk for nothing. Embiid doesn't go to another team for a physical, you draft a guy and when Lebron is looking at your team you are reporting he may not play this year. Maybe if there was no other way. Is there?

I think taking down your letter from your teams website a few years ago and wishing him well would accomplish more in getting him back home than the millions spent and risk in doing that. Tanking for a great chance at top picks anyways... Finding out who Lebron respects most in the business like Kryzewski and giving him that sh%t ton of money. Seems a lot simpler and with a better chance of return.

In fact, if you are doing this as Gilbert why not take that letter down and apologize immediately? Actually work on your relationship with Lebron. He seemed to be as caught off guard Lebron opted out as anyone. Doesn't seem like the actions of a guy taking that course there. Why is he doing things to shoot himself in the foot, or not really help his cause even until the last second if he has that riding on it?

Looking at it I am not saying it could never happen, and I am not sure I caught every angle here either. Maybe there is a clear angle that makes it work out. But when you look into it, it is a very hard sell as far as conspiracy theories go.

As for the prove it or disprove it, I am sorry but this one needs proof. It's like the flat earth conspiracy. No I haven't sailed around the world to disprove that theory. But I'd be gullible to believe that story without proof. I'm not wearing the tin foil hat to keep the aliens out of my head without you showing me some proof.

Big Zo
07-14-2014, 06:10 PM
the fans of cleveland i guess deserve it but it will always erk me how dan gilbert gets rewarded so heavily after years of tanking.


http://dimemag.com/2014/07/lebron-james-mural-miami-defaced/

Hi

One clown that thought it would be funny to deface the mural, and a few angry reactions. Can't click the vid, since I currently don't have wi-fi, but the few that I've seen generally contain white people burning the jersey, and that should be a dead giveaway that they aren't from Miami. Still, nowhere close to the *****ing and moaning that came out of Cleveland.

goingfor28
07-14-2014, 06:10 PM
One clown that thought it would be funny to deface the mural, and a few angry reactions. Can't click the vid, since I currently don't have wi-fi, but the few that I've seen generally contain white people burning the jersey, and that should be a dead giveaway that they aren't from Miami. Still, nowhere close to the *****ing and moaning that came out of Cleveland.

Ok buddy. It's more than just a few. Read the article. Heat fans are reacting just like can fans did

P&GRealist
07-14-2014, 06:10 PM
Dan Gilbert is the guy who wrote the letter to Stern to aid in vetoing the CP3 laker trade. He was also the big advocate in the lockout meetings of prying away more tax revenue from the Lakers and Instilling that horrible repeater tax crap. He always gets what he wants. He's rich as hell and i strongly believe he pays off the commish.

Big Zo
07-14-2014, 06:24 PM
Ok buddy. It's more than just a few. Read the article. Heat fans are reacting just like can fans did

The article is ********, and so is Dime magazine. And does anybody still read that? Am I back in 2001?

goingfor28
07-14-2014, 06:34 PM
The article is ********, and so is Dime magazine. And does anybody still read that? Am I back in 2001?
Good argument. At least you aren't denying it. Good talk.

SILVER SEAVER
07-14-2014, 06:37 PM
Dan Gilbert is the guy who wrote the letter to Stern to aid in vetoing the CP3 laker trade. He was also the big advocate in the lockout meetings of prying away more tax revenue from the Lakers and Instilling that horrible repeater tax crap. He always gets what he wants. He's rich as hell and i strongly believe he pays off the commish.

Which could be the reason why he's had three number one picks in four years.

Arch Stanton
07-14-2014, 06:39 PM
One clown that thought it would be funny to deface the mural, and a few angry reactions. Can't click the vid, since I currently don't have wi-fi, but the few that I've seen generally contain white people burning the jersey, and that should be a dead giveaway that they aren't from Miami. Still, nowhere close to the *****ing and moaning that came out of Cleveland.

Just like one clown burned a jersey in Cleveland and somehow all of Cleveland was burning jerseys.

Arch Stanton
07-14-2014, 06:40 PM
The must be the therapy thread for Heat fans.

jmartin80
07-14-2014, 06:45 PM
I have said this before several times. I believe the draft is rigged. I thought the same when the Bulls got Rose.

The reason it was not done for a bigger market is because Lebron is more important to the NBA then a big market. Big markets are going to get FA and most are going to get their money anyway. Lebron on the other hand is the poster child for the NBA and represents them in every way. His "legacy" took a huge hit when he made the decision and everything else. The only thing that could save it would be to "return" and lead his hometown team to the promise land.

The day of the draft lottery I told my office mate that it is pointless to watch because they are just going to give it to Cleveland to lure Lebron there and save their dynasty. And boom...

To answer the original question... It is rewarded due to get 3 number 1 overall picks and 2 #4 overall picks in the last five years. Young players on rookie contracts with enough pieces to put together a super team. Again.

Can't wait for the NFL.

smith&wesson
07-14-2014, 06:50 PM
lol man LeBron makes fans really emotional. Ive never seen another athlete have this kind of impact on people. its hilarious

smith&wesson
07-14-2014, 06:50 PM
Disprove it.

justice system = innocent until proven guilty. . sooooo balls in your court :D

SILVER SEAVER
07-14-2014, 06:51 PM
Yup but they miss the point that they would be cheating to do that for a team that doesn't give them the biggest bang for their buck or even close.

I am trying to find a way for this to make sense...

The NBA games have to be a lot better to get the same draw than if Boston, NY, Chicago, and LA were great. NBA TV viewership doesn't change year to year. Last year it dropped 5%. Why? NY, LA, and Chicago lost 260,000 homes per game. A smaller market team can improve hugely but not have that effect. Golden State saw a 15% increase in their viewership... 11,000 homes. Cleveland lost 70,000 homes in their TV market from the height of Lebron till when he left. That's half the difference of Kobe being out this year.

With 50% of earnings give or take going to revenue sharing, you help 29 teams getting Lebron to NY or LA. You help 1 getting him to Cleveland.

It would be like an inside trader hearing one stock will jump 5% and another 50% with equal risk being caught on both and he invests all his money in the one jumping 5%. So obviously this isn't an NBA thing. This is someone going against the wishes of the league as a whole.

Dan Gilbert is the only one who makes out. So him and the commissioner are in cahoots. But there's been two commissioners here. Silver AND Stern have presided over these drafts. So now we are convincing both to risk their futures. First off Gilbert is taking a huge risk even approaching them about this. I mean if they decided to tape this and catch Gilbert, he's losing his team quicker than Donald Sterling. Then if this came out would the owners sue for that salary back? A risk for sure. Stern made supposedly 23 mil a year. Silver might not make that but basically has a multimillion dollar salary guaranteed in perpetuity until he retires. 30 years like Stern... that's could be a billion dollars he'd be risking with the growth of the league. Or a lot more. If the reports of what Stern makes now is true at 23 mil, that is 1/20th the value of a team today (or less). When he came into the league, he probably wasn't making that much and a team was 16 million. So $800,000 a year max? doubling that salary every year is that pace. We are talking about paying off two guys who are as set as set can be to take this risk for you.

What dollar figure would you take? You are risking potentially a billion dollars here, and a great job. You are trying to pull the wool over the eyes of 29 businessmen, lawyers and financial guru's, and you are making a move that makes your job harder to accomplish (not letting Lebron go to a better market). And how do you hide that transaction? Lets say he asked for 50 mil to pull this off. How do you explain a 50 million dollar increase in your net worth? How do you enjoy that money? You build a house next to Mark Cuban and are seen out on your private yacht, there will be a LOT of questions. Could Gilbert even afford the price you would want for that? Silver and Stern wouldn't need to be morally ambiguous but nefarious to take this.

All that for a CHANCE at Lebron (on a one year deal)? And as Gilbert you are still running the risk of this not even panning out and busting your picks. You draft Derrick Williams instead of Kyrie Irving (a very real option at the time) you wasted a pile of money and took a huge risk for nothing. Embiid doesn't go to another team for a physical, you draft a guy and when Lebron is looking at your team you are reporting he may not play this year. Maybe if there was no other way. Is there?

I think taking down your letter from your teams website a few years ago and wishing him well would accomplish more in getting him back home than the millions spent and risk in doing that. Tanking for a great chance at top picks anyways... Finding out who Lebron respects most in the business like Kryzewski and giving him that sh%t ton of money. Seems a lot simpler and with a better chance of return.

In fact, if you are doing this as Gilbert why not take that letter down and apologize immediately? Actually work on your relationship with Lebron. He seemed to be as caught off guard Lebron opted out as anyone. Doesn't seem like the actions of a guy taking that course there. Why is he doing things to shoot himself in the foot, or not really help his cause even until the last second if he has that riding on it?

Looking at it I am not saying it could never happen, and I am not sure I caught every angle here either. Maybe there is a clear angle that makes it work out. But when you look into it, it is a very hard sell as far as conspiracy theories go.

As for the prove it or disprove it, I am sorry but this one needs proof. It's like the flat earth conspiracy. No I haven't sailed around the world to disprove that theory. But I'd be gullible to believe that story without proof. I'm not wearing the tin foil hat to keep the aliens out of my head without you showing me some proof.

LeBron going back to play for a guy who all but called him the "N" word is mind boggling. Fans waffle on just about everything. They all love him now after he became Public Enemy #1. If the best player on my favorite team left to win rings and then come back to get the love back from the fans he left in the lurch I wouldn't want him back. For as much as I love Jordan if he left the Bulls for greener pastures and came back after he got the monkey off his back I wouldn't want him back because he didn't see it through while he was here the first time. James helped a franchise who already won a championship and helped them win two more meanwhile the Cavs made it to one Finals and got swept.

SILVER SEAVER
07-14-2014, 06:53 PM
I have said this before several times. I believe the draft is rigged. I thought the same when the Bulls got Rose.

The reason it was not done for a bigger market is because Lebron is more important to the NBA then a big market. Big markets are going to get FA and most are going to get their money anyway. Lebron on the other hand is the poster child for the NBA and represents them in every way. His "legacy" took a huge hit when he made the decision and everything else. The only thing that could save it would be to "return" and lead his hometown team to the promise land.

The day of the draft lottery I told my office mate that it is pointless to watch because they are just going to give it to Cleveland to lure Lebron there and save their dynasty. And boom...

To answer the original question... It is rewarded due to get 3 number 1 overall picks and 2 #4 overall picks in the last five years. Young players on rookie contracts with enough pieces to put together a super team. Again.

Can't wait for the NFL.

At least I don't feel like the Lone Ranger anymore. Good post.

utl768
07-14-2014, 06:58 PM
its gonna be funny when the cavs are knocked out in the 2nd round and gilbert refuses to add anyone because he doesnt wanna pay the tax and lebron thinks to myself i miss mickey lol

slashsnake
07-14-2014, 07:04 PM
I have said this before several times. I believe the draft is rigged. I thought the same when the Bulls got Rose.

The reason it was not done for a bigger market is because Lebron is more important to the NBA then a big market. Big markets are going to get FA and most are going to get their money anyway. Lebron on the other hand is the poster child for the NBA and represents them in every way. His "legacy" took a huge hit when he made the decision and everything else. The only thing that could save it would be to "return" and lead his hometown team to the promise land.

The day of the draft lottery I told my office mate that it is pointless to watch because they are just going to give it to Cleveland to lure Lebron there and save their dynasty. And boom...

To answer the original question... It is rewarded due to get 3 number 1 overall picks and 2 #4 overall picks in the last five years. Young players on rookie contracts with enough pieces to put together a super team. Again.

Can't wait for the NFL.


Lebron in the finals with Cleveland. A 6.2 national TV rating, lowest rating in finals history with the leagues most beloved and marketable player. Lebron with the heat... 10+. Lebron's legacy may have taken a hit. But the NBA's took a jump. Lakers in the finals 12+. Big Market is a lot bigger than Lebron in Cleveland. The numbers always showed it.

His legacy took a hit. The NBA's popularity went up though with him in a bigger market. Big Markets are now drawing it down, not Cleveland without Lebron. And like I said the best health for the NBA as a whole is big markets having the best players. Lebron to Cleveland doesn't help that even remotely as you can clearly see.

Its why Michael Carter Williams sells more jerseys than Anthony Davis or Love, Rondo sells as much as Westbrook and Kobe plays 6 games and sells more jerseys than all but two players. Its why Jeremy Lin can rank 2nd in merchandise sales while in New York. Dwight sold his most in LA, 2nd most in Houston. CP3 sells a lot more in LA than before his trade. Nash sold more jerseys in LA than his time in Phoenix, Rose hasn't played in 3 years and is top 5. If 50% of Cleveland area fans spent 100 bucks on Lebron gear the NBA would get 110 million bucks. If 10% did it in NY, the NBA would get 220 million. It isn't even close.

If LA got the pick the NBA is rigged to rebuild up Kobe and of course the big market Lakers.
The Bucks would get it to grease the wheels of their sale and help rise team values.
76ers market, attendance, build a super team in a good market, and gift to the 76ers for Rod Thorn.
Lose Lebron #1, lose CP3, #1 Orlando got skipped for Dwight so they had to make that one up.
Celtics market too valuable.
Kings to get the league a new arena
Nuggets... to draw attention away from a bad owner (sterling) to one who is acceptable in Kroenke who also just got the NFL's first openly gay player
Pelicans... crappy attendance, and to help a city hurt from Katrina and keep the team there.
Twolves to help them keep Love
Suns for trying hard to the last day instead of trying to tank.

Arch Stanton
07-14-2014, 07:07 PM
its gonna be funny when the cavs are knocked out in the 2nd round and gilbert refuses to add anyone because he doesnt wanna pay the tax and lebron thinks to myself i miss mickey lol

Yeah that won't happen. You can complain about Gilbert being a bad owner all you want but one thing he is not is cheap. This is the guy that took on Baron Davis contract to get the Clippers pick in the 2011 draft. He's the guy that paid Mike Brown $20 million to go away. Get your facts straight.

SILVER SEAVER
07-14-2014, 07:18 PM
its gonna be funny when the cavs are knocked out in the 2nd round and gilbert refuses to add anyone because he doesnt wanna pay the tax and lebron thinks to myself i miss mickey lol

I honestly believe Gilbert thinks the Cavs are a contender next season.....just delusional.

SILVER SEAVER
07-14-2014, 07:20 PM
Yeah that won't happen. You can complain about Gilbert being a bad owner all you want but one thing he is not is cheap. This is the guy that took on Baron Davis contract to get the Clippers pick in the 2011 draft. He's the guy that paid Mike Brown $20 million to go away. Get your facts straight.

Fired Brown twice :laugh:

SILVER SEAVER
07-14-2014, 07:21 PM
All the Cavs fans can come out now........the basketball Jesus is back for his second coming.

Arch Stanton
07-14-2014, 07:22 PM
Fired Brown twice :laugh:

Yep, and showed that he's willing to spend money unlike Mickey Mouse Arison.

Arch Stanton
07-14-2014, 07:23 PM
All the Cavs fans can come out now........the basketball Jesus is back for his second coming.

Or the Heat fans can put in their Cavs jerseys. To each there own.

JordansBulls
07-14-2014, 07:24 PM
That is what happens when you lose Shaq at the time.

WITZ
07-14-2014, 07:31 PM
its gonna be funny when the cavs are knocked out in the 2nd round and gilbert refuses to add anyone because he doesnt wanna pay the tax and lebron thinks to myself i miss mickey lol

Yea he sure paid the tax on keeping Mike Miller.. oh wait that's right he amnestied him to save money :laugh:

Raps08-09 Champ
07-14-2014, 07:41 PM
I can't prove it(off course there is a chance of that happening), but if you want me to calculate the odds of that happening and the odds of my Wolves never moving up in the draft - the numbers will be pretty convincing.

I bet you wouldn't even care if the Wolves won.

Raps08-09 Champ
07-14-2014, 07:45 PM
I'm with you. I am not a conspiracy theorist, and I am not going to say it's rigged (I half joked before), however, I want the lottery to be live and to have a representative from each team counting the number of balls that go in. I don't even care if it's televised, I just want for each team to be represented - better yet - randomly - just pick a random fan(or a news caster) of the team or something and do the whole thing start to finish in front of their eyes - so I don't even have a point of saying it's fishy and just great/terrible luck.

They literally have a team representative in the room when the lottery is done. They have a Big 4 accounting firm in Ernst and Young (who makes like x20 more revenue than the NBA does. Unless you want me to believe the NBA is buying out an accounting firm that makes more money than them. Everything you have asked for, they have that. It's just not live.

Edit: They also record it and post it after. What's the difference with it being filmed live and it being filmed the exact same shots/view and just being posted right after?

BSplaya2121
07-14-2014, 07:46 PM
Well...... As a Knicks fan I 100% agree with this article .... Unfortunately..... We were not only poorly run but bad luck as well!! Hopefully Phil goes into super gm mode and changes their "poorly run label" (of to a solid start). Other than that lebron went to Cleveland for himself..... Not Dan Gilbert, the dude is a POS and doesn't deserve lebron, however the city does and I am happy for the league as well as lebron that he went back. Right decision in my mind

Raps08-09 Champ
07-14-2014, 07:46 PM
Why does he have to prove it? Do you know that poster personally and know that he has the connections to prove that the league is rigged or the lottery?

Also, would you believe him if he did bring you want he thought was good enough proof? Or would you start poking holes in it,because he is not a known reporter or source? Even worse, if a story did come out that the league is rigged, all the league would do is ignore it, or come out with a press conference saying that it's a lie, and everyone will go on with their sports lives.

What people would like to happen is players or league reps come out and say that this **** is rigged (more then 20 would have to say it, because if it's only 1 or 2, then the league would crush them publicly).

I'm sure lives would be lost do to unforeseen accidents or drug overdose.

Well if you say that something is rigged and you are going to advertise it, you better have something to persuade me.

Raps08-09 Champ
07-14-2014, 07:47 PM
Disprove it.

I don't have anything to disprove it. But I'm not advertising that it isn't rigged. He's saying that it is rigged. Burden is on him to prove to me.

utl768
07-14-2014, 07:57 PM
Yea he sure paid the tax on keeping Mike Miller.. oh wait that's right he amnestied him to save money :laugh:

because mike miller this season would have beat the spurs?

if mike miller is the reason lebron left miami then he was just looking for an excuse to leave

SILVER SEAVER
07-14-2014, 07:57 PM
Yep, and showed that he's willing to spend money unlike Mickey Mouse Arison.

I never accused him of being cheap, I accused him of being delusional.

SILVER SEAVER
07-14-2014, 08:00 PM
because mike miller this season would have beat the spurs?

if mike miller is the reason lebron left miami then he was just looking for an excuse to leave

When was Mike Miller dubbed Sir Mike Miller? I didn't know he was basketball royalty and being the reason the best player in the world would pick up and leave a franchise that's a Finals team every year.

Arch Stanton
07-14-2014, 08:00 PM
I never accused him of being cheap, I accused him of being delusional.

You didn't actually accuse him of either.

utl768
07-14-2014, 08:06 PM
When was Mike Miller dubbed Sir Mike Miller? I didn't know he was basketball royalty and being the reason the best player in the world would pick up and leave a franchise that's a Finals team every year.

my response flew right over your head

SILVER SEAVER
07-14-2014, 08:11 PM
You didn't actually accuse him of either.

See post #49

SILVER SEAVER
07-14-2014, 08:13 PM
my response flew right over your head

It wasn't in response to what you said it's all this Mike Miller talk lately. Like LeBron called him up right away when he decided to go to Cleveland as an example. I didn't know Miller was the key to LeBron's heart. lol I wasn't arguing about anything you said.

Arch Stanton
07-14-2014, 08:15 PM
See post #49

See post #50.

Big Zo
07-14-2014, 08:31 PM
The must be the therapy thread for Heat fans.
Why haven't I seen you here in years? Lol

Big Zo
07-14-2014, 08:35 PM
Yep, and showed that he's willing to spend money unlike Mickey Mouse Arison.

Players brought in during Arison's tenure: Alonzo Mourning, Tim Hardaway, Shaq, LeBron, Bosh, etc.

Players brought in during Dan Gilbert's tenure: *Cricketts*

Raps08-09 Champ
07-14-2014, 08:36 PM
Players brought in during Arison's tenure: Alonzo Mourning, Tim Hardaway, Shaq, LeBron, Bosh, etc.

Players brought in during Dan Gilbert's tenure: *Cricketts*

What about that time he didn't want to trade Hickson for Amar'e because it'd cost too much.

Arch Stanton
07-14-2014, 08:38 PM
Why haven't I seen you here in years? Lol

Well clear the crud out of your eyes.

Arch Stanton
07-14-2014, 08:41 PM
Players brought in during Arison's tenure: Alonzo Mourning, Tim Hardaway, Shaq, LeBron, Bosh, etc.

Players brought in during Dan Gilbert's tenure: *Cricketts*

How about Kyrie Irving, and Andrew Wiggins. And how long has Mickey Mouse Arison been an owner again? Like 10 years longer than Dan Gilbert...

Arch Stanton
07-14-2014, 08:42 PM
What about that time he didn't want to trade Hickson for Amar'e because it'd cost too much.

Yeah revisionist history at its finest.

Big Zo
07-14-2014, 08:44 PM
How about Kyrie Irving, and Andrew Wiggins. And how long has Mickey Mouse Arison been an owner again? Like 10 years longer than Dan Gilbert...
I'm talking about guys he actually spent money to acquire either through free agency or trades, not guys that were gifted to him with a #1 pick.

Arch Stanton
07-14-2014, 08:49 PM
I'm talking about guys he actually spent money to acquire either through free agency or trades, not guys that were gifted to him with a #1 pick.

Okay LeBron, Shaq... More to come. Give him another 10 years to catch up to Mickey Mouse.

JNA17
07-14-2014, 08:50 PM
Dan Gilbert is the guy who wrote the letter to Stern to aid in vetoing the CP3 laker trade. He was also the big advocate in the lockout meetings of prying away more tax revenue from the Lakers and Instilling that horrible repeater tax crap. He always gets what he wants. He's rich as hell and i strongly believe he pays off the commish.

Sterling gets banned from the NBA for racist comments in private while this Gilbert ***** gets away with tampering the NBA as a whole?

Seriously **** Dan. Even at the expense of Cavs fans I hope he never wins anything as long as he is their owner.

Arch Stanton
07-14-2014, 08:53 PM
Sterling gets banned from the NBA for racist comments in private while this Gilbert ***** gets away with tampering the NBA as a whole?

Seriously **** Dan. Even at the expense of Cavs fans I hope he never wins anything as long as he is their owner.

How exactly was Gilbert tampering again?

JNA17
07-14-2014, 09:12 PM
How exactly was Gilbert tampering again?


Dan Gilbert is the guy who wrote the letter to Stern to aid in vetoing the CP3 laker trade. He was also the big advocate in the lockout meetings of prying away more tax revenue from the Lakers and Instilling that horrible repeater tax crap. He always gets what he wants. He's rich as hell and i strongly believe he pays off the commish.

The guy is almost single handedly changing the rules of the NBA for his own benefits and/or whenever the arguments support him. The main guy responsible for the Chris Paul veto and one of the main guys responsible for this current crap CBA.

FlashBolt
07-14-2014, 09:15 PM
You guys do realize that owners vote on these things, right? One guy doesn't change the NBA.. hope you guys stop finding someone to blame. No one ever said a thing about this before Cleveland got LeBron. Yet, because LeBron is here, we have to find a way to stir an argument.

Arch Stanton
07-14-2014, 09:17 PM
The guy is almost single handedly changing the rules of the NBA for his own benefits and/or whenever the arguments support him. The main guy responsible for the Chris Paul veto and one of the main guys responsible for this current crap CBA.

You're argument is weak. Provide some actual evidence that tampering happened other than this ridiculous conjecture.

Tony_Starks
07-14-2014, 09:48 PM
Lebron should've made him make a public apology. This is supposed to be all business but this clown went out of his way to personally attack him, his work ethic, and assassinate his character. Publicly. He didnt even take the letter down until recently under the guise of "I didn't know it was still on the website." Right.....

I get that Lebron made him apologize with his wallet but Gilbert went far from owning his unprofessional and unethical rant.

jmartin80
07-14-2014, 09:48 PM
Lebron in the finals with Cleveland. A 6.2 national TV rating, lowest rating in finals history with the leagues most beloved and marketable player. Lebron with the heat... 10+. Lebron's legacy may have taken a hit. But the NBA's took a jump. Lakers in the finals 12+. Big Market is a lot bigger than Lebron in Cleveland. The numbers always showed it.

His legacy took a hit. The NBA's popularity went up though with him in a bigger market. Big Markets are now drawing it down, not Cleveland without Lebron. And like I said the best health for the NBA as a whole is big markets having the best players. Lebron to Cleveland doesn't help that even remotely as you can clearly see.

Its why Michael Carter Williams sells more jerseys than Anthony Davis or Love, Rondo sells as much as Westbrook and Kobe plays 6 games and sells more jerseys than all but two players. Its why Jeremy Lin can rank 2nd in merchandise sales while in New York. Dwight sold his most in LA, 2nd most in Houston. CP3 sells a lot more in LA than before his trade. Nash sold more jerseys in LA than his time in Phoenix, Rose hasn't played in 3 years and is top 5. If 50% of Cleveland area fans spent 100 bucks on Lebron gear the NBA would get 110 million bucks. If 10% did it in NY, the NBA would get 220 million. It isn't even close.

If LA got the pick the NBA is rigged to rebuild up Kobe and of course the big market Lakers.
The Bucks would get it to grease the wheels of their sale and help rise team values.
76ers market, attendance, build a super team in a good market, and gift to the 76ers for Rod Thorn.
Lose Lebron #1, lose CP3, #1 Orlando got skipped for Dwight so they had to make that one up.
Celtics market too valuable.
Kings to get the league a new arena
Nuggets... to draw attention away from a bad owner (sterling) to one who is acceptable in Kroenke who also just got the NFL's first openly gay player
Pelicans... crappy attendance, and to help a city hurt from Katrina and keep the team there.
Twolves to help them keep Love
Suns for trying hard to the last day instead of trying to tank.

Did you actually read my post? I didn't say anything about numbers or money being the reason. I said Lebron and his legacy is more important to the NBA then making a ton of money and bigger markets. They will get their money and if Lebron takes Cleveland to the finals, we will see how the numbers end up. The NBA and media have been shoving Lebron down our throats since he started and they are doing everything they can to save his legacy.

As far as the breakdown for each team, I think you are trying to say that people would claim it being rigged if any of those other teams got it? I have to assume that is what you are doing. And I agree with you... If each of those team had already received 2 First overall picks in the last 3 years to give them 3 #1 overall picks in 4 years. One of them with a 1% chance. The year Lebron is a free agent.

3 #1 overall picks in 4 Years.

The Bulls have had 2 #1 overall picks in close to 50. For example.

Big Zo
07-14-2014, 10:54 PM
You're argument is weak. Provide some actual evidence that tampering happened other than this ridiculous conjecture.

Cleveland never provided evidence that the big 3 colluded in 2010, but it didn't stop them from saying it.

cmellofan15
07-14-2014, 11:07 PM
Lebron should've made him make a public apology. This is supposed to be all business but this clown went out of his way to personally attack him, his work ethic, and assassinate his character. Publicly. He didnt even take the letter down until recently under the guise of "I didn't know it was still on the website." Right.....

I get that Lebron made him apologize with his wallet but Gilbert went far from owning his unprofessional and unethical rant.

well that plays into the whole "bigger than basketball" part of LeBron's return. that's a huge part of why I can believe his reasoning behind returning because it takes a big man to let something as idiotic as what Gilbert did go by the wayside.

slashsnake
07-14-2014, 11:19 PM
Did you actually read my post? I didn't say anything about numbers or money being the reason. I said Lebron and his legacy is more important to the NBA then making a ton of money and bigger markets. They will get their money and if Lebron takes Cleveland to the finals, we will see how the numbers end up. The NBA and media have been shoving Lebron down our throats since he started and they are doing everything they can to save his legacy.

As far as the breakdown for each team, I think you are trying to say that people would claim it being rigged if any of those other teams got it? I have to assume that is what you are doing. And I agree with you... If each of those team had already received 2 First overall picks in the last 3 years to give them 3 #1 overall picks in 4 years. One of them with a 1% chance. The year Lebron is a free agent.

3 #1 overall picks in 4 Years.

The Bulls have had 2 #1 overall picks in close to 50. For example.

we have seen Lebron in the finals and the numbers. Legacy hurt by going to a bigger market, and the viewers go up. Lebron in the finals with Cleveland and an untainted legacy, worse viewership EVER.

Hmmm, so you are saying the NBA would say "who cares about the millions we are going to lose, we have to do this for Lebrons Legacy"?

Way to not actually explain why, how, or anything real, but say yup it happened. And now we have added in the company which sets this up has a lot more to lose than a paltry payment from Gilbert. Again, lets get back to reality here or show me some reasoning. Give me some data, you have had plenty shown to you saying otherwise. Find me SOMETHING other than the tin foil hat keeps the alien mind control away.

You want to talk odds... they aren't great. .63% Bulls chances to get the #1 in 1999 and 2008 combined? .26%. .63% odds are better than rolling 6 with a dice 3 times in a row though. Three times the odds of the Magic getting back to back firsts when they did that. The same exact odds that Cleveland would win 3 out of 4, are that Charlotte would get the #3 to get Baron Davis in 1999 (.7%). 200 more times as likely than Calderon's free throw streak. 20 times more likely than CP3's 8 straight three's in the playoffs this year. 4000 times more likely than Wilt Chamberlains 35 shots made in a row. Maybe the NBA is using remote controlled balls. Double the chances of the Lakers 33 game win streak.

So do you believe all those MUCH less likely occurences are cheating as well? Or are you picking this one because you have a biased reason to disagree with it?

Why is the NBA hell bent on screwing itself over? So the risk is ruining the league and the reward is not helping the league but the exact opposite by again and again defying the odds for the small markets that offer the smallest return?

Confusious
07-14-2014, 11:23 PM
And the Cavs could be landing Kevin Love soon. Sounds like a superteam to me..... How big of a hypocrite is this guy? Seriously, **** this dude. Nothing personal to Lebron or Cavs fans but I hope your team is agonizingly average(I would say horrible, but I don't want you stockpiling more #1 picks) and never accomplishes anything.
Perhaps he realizes what needs to be done in order to keep LeBron here? IE feeding him capable players rather than bench fodder? But oh, yeah, **** this dude indeed.

You say nothing personal, but then you follow it up with saying some pretty personal things... and Dan Gilbert is a hypocrite? Okay then! Drugs are fun!

prodigy
07-14-2014, 11:24 PM
Lebron left and they sucked. Not hard to figure out. LeBron's back and they'll no doubt be a top 3 seed, likely top 2

This

I mean I can't look at anything and say that's horrible. Drafts have been solid, ya Bennet had a bad season but whole draft was weak. Cleared money, no bad contracts.

Arch Stanton
07-14-2014, 11:41 PM
Cleveland never provided evidence that the big 3 colluded in 2010, but it didn't stop them from saying it.

You're talking about two different things that have no relations to each other.

Collusion is a secret agreement... How could someone prove a secret agreement unless one of the secret parties came out and testified?

JNA17 said Dan single handedly changed the rules of the NBA for his benefit.... Proof! And how has he benefitted? The Cavs have been garbage for four years.

jmartin80
07-15-2014, 08:38 AM
we have seen Lebron in the finals and the numbers. Legacy hurt by going to a bigger market, and the viewers go up. Lebron in the finals with Cleveland and an untainted legacy, worse viewership EVER.

Hmmm, so you are saying the NBA would say "who cares about the millions we are going to lose, we have to do this for Lebrons Legacy"?

Way to not actually explain why, how, or anything real, but say yup it happened. And now we have added in the company which sets this up has a lot more to lose than a paltry payment from Gilbert. Again, lets get back to reality here or show me some reasoning. Give me some data, you have had plenty shown to you saying otherwise. Find me SOMETHING other than the tin foil hat keeps the alien mind control away.

You want to talk odds... they aren't great. .63% Bulls chances to get the #1 in 1999 and 2008 combined? .26%. .63% odds are better than rolling 6 with a dice 3 times in a row though. Three times the odds of the Magic getting back to back firsts when they did that. The same exact odds that Cleveland would win 3 out of 4, are that Charlotte would get the #3 to get Baron Davis in 1999 (.7%). 200 more times as likely than Calderon's free throw streak. 20 times more likely than CP3's 8 straight three's in the playoffs this year. 4000 times more likely than Wilt Chamberlains 35 shots made in a row. Maybe the NBA is using remote controlled balls. Double the chances of the Lakers 33 game win streak.

So do you believe all those MUCH less likely occurences are cheating as well? Or are you picking this one because you have a biased reason to disagree with it?

Why is the NBA hell bent on screwing itself over? So the risk is ruining the league and the reward is not helping the league but the exact opposite by again and again defying the odds for the small markets that offer the smallest return?

I don't know if you are really just proud of yourself for being able to google viewership numbers and odds of winning tickets, but that really doesn't prove anything either. The NBA will make a TON of money if Lebron gets his popularity back. He was hated by so many fans. The NBA wants him to succeed. By him succeeding, they will make a ton of money in the process. Especially if they save his legacy. The NBA is still making money from Jordan. I am sure the same thing would apply here.

I guess we will just have to wait for the Cavs to make the finals to compare the final numbers of people viewing. I am guessing it will be quite a bit higher then the last time.

Your stats about free throw streaks and three pointers blah blah is one of the dumbest examples. They happened live, for everyone to see. Until the NBA does the lottery live, showing each ball in a pan shot prior to dropping them in for the whole world to see, I will think it is rigged.

The NBA did not screw themselves over at all. That is what I am saying to you. They want James to be the Savior and will make a ton from it. This small market excuse is getting old. This is about the best player being saved in the eyes of the fans which in return, will pay dividends.

p.s. You explained nothing real either. Just that "Yup it didn't happen". See look at things that really have nothing to do with what we are talking about. haha Wilt's 35 shots in a row... The worst example I have ever seen on PSD. Congrats!

Gotta go though. The Government is monitoring my posts about Lebron and my tinfoil hat needs to be refurbished.

jmartin80
07-15-2014, 08:40 AM
You're talking about two different things that have no relations to each other.

Collusion is a secret agreement... How could someone prove a secret agreement unless one of the secret parties came out and testified?

JNA17 said Dan single handedly changed the rules of the NBA for his benefit.... Proof! And how has he benefitted? The Cavs have been garbage for four years.

I wouldn't mind at all being garbage for four years to be gifted 3 #1 picks. It is worth it. With Lebron back, they now have 4 #1 overall picks. That is insane to me. I don't know what you are referring to about him benefiting, but if that isn't a benefit, I don't know what is.

Arch Stanton
07-15-2014, 10:32 AM
Just listened to Matt Moore, the author of this article on Kiley and Booms

http://cleveland.cbslocal.com/2014/07/15/cbs-sports-matt-moore-tries-to-defend-himself-against-kiley-booms/

And it's pretty apparent that this is a hatchet job. There is no substantiated evidence that Dan Gilbert selected these players in the draft. Moore makes no reference to GM Chris Grant and blames the draft picks on Gilbert. This is just another example of a national writer ripping Cleveland to get hits on his article.

Arch Stanton
07-15-2014, 10:33 AM
I wouldn't mind at all being garbage for four years to be gifted 3 #1 picks. It is worth it. With Lebron back, they now have 4 #1 overall picks. That is insane to me. I don't know what you are referring to about him benefiting, but if that isn't a benefit, I don't know what is.

Again do you have any proof that they were gifted three picks or are you talking out your ***?

Wade n Fade
07-15-2014, 10:37 AM
It is very safe to assume the league has rigged draft lotteries. Without those 3 picks, Cleveland is well.... Cleveland.

therealwd27
07-15-2014, 10:58 AM
the fans of cleveland i guess deserve it but it will always erk me how dan gilbert gets rewarded so heavily after years of tanking.

Yea, I'm with you. I'm happy for Ohio and Cleveland fans, I also pray to the basketball gods the Heat play the Cavs in playoffs. But Gilbert is the ultimate douche and the draft was clearly rigged

bringbackfredex
07-15-2014, 11:13 AM
It is very safe to assume the league has rigged draft lotteries. Without those 3 picks, Cleveland is well.... Cleveland.

I also believe that these lotteries are rigged, however I'm interested in the thought process of the league officials who do it.

Cleveland would have been a great story if they were able to overcome losing LeBron to win a title, however I'm interested as to why they didn't help other teams in their major markets. I was almost certain that the Lakers would win the lottery this year.

Arch Stanton
07-15-2014, 11:17 AM
It is very safe to assume the league has rigged draft lotteries. Without those 3 picks, Cleveland is well.... Cleveland.

Common straw man argument. There is no substance to this claim only jealousy, and ignorance.

slashsnake
07-15-2014, 11:17 AM
I don't know if you are really just proud of yourself for being able to google viewership numbers and odds of winning tickets, but that really doesn't prove anything either. The NBA will make a TON of money if Lebron gets his popularity back. He was hated by so many fans. The NBA wants him to succeed. By him succeeding, they will make a ton of money in the process. Especially if they save his legacy. The NBA is still making money from Jordan. I am sure the same thing would apply here.

I guess we will just have to wait for the Cavs to make the finals to compare the final numbers of people viewing. I am guessing it will be quite a bit higher then the last time.

Your stats about free throw streaks and three pointers blah blah is one of the dumbest examples. They happened live, for everyone to see. Until the NBA does the lottery live, showing each ball in a pan shot prior to dropping them in for the whole world to see, I will think it is rigged.

The NBA did not screw themselves over at all. That is what I am saying to you. They want James to be the Savior and will make a ton from it. This small market excuse is getting old. This is about the best player being saved in the eyes of the fans which in return, will pay dividends.

p.s. You explained nothing real either. Just that "Yup it didn't happen". See look at things that really have nothing to do with what we are talking about. haha Wilt's 35 shots in a row... The worst example I have ever seen on PSD. Congrats!

Gotta go though. The Government is monitoring my posts about Lebron and my tinfoil hat needs to be refurbished.

Way to ignore the fact that Cleveland isn't even the luckiest team when it has come to the draft by the way. I see you are ignoring the best points that really disprove your theory, and grabbing on to the smallest ones.

Yes, the "small market excuse is getting old". The exuse that drinking a gallon of vodka impairs your ability to drive is an old one as well. Doesn't keep it from being a fact no matter how much you may not like it. I am not bringing it up because I want it to be true. I am bringing it up because it is the most basic fact of the NBA's financial success. That is real. It is why the current Knicks and Lakers individually can bring in more revenue than the Thunder and the Spurs... Combined. Think on that for a second. Down year for Laker revenue in a big way with the roster they had last season. And OKC and SA could barely make half what they did in revenue for the league. This isn't some fans bias, this is just fact. Cleveland has to do increase revenue 3-4 times as much as NY or LA to increase the same dollar figure. I am sorry that just isn't happening.

It's why Melo to the Knicks creates more revenue by far than Lebron leaving Cleveland lost them. Its why Lebron to Miami created more revenue than he ever did in Cleveland. A market with 10 times the people, 20 times the money and 100 times the international exposure just isn't "an excuse". It's insurmountable. It is why Lin could earn the league more than Durant for a year.

Look, you have done NOTHING to explain how to pull this one off here. Nothing to prove that it gives you a good reward, NOTHING to show how to reduce your risks. You like the theory, sure. I think it is fun too. But how do you make it plausable?

You bring up again and again about how "lebron was hated by so many fans". Ok, and even with that hate, in a bigger Heat market he was more watched, and sold more for the league. You are proving again and again the market matters more than the legacy of Lebron. Unless you are saying Lebron's decision to go to Miami made him beloved. That 66% more people wanted to see him because he made the decision and left Cleveland...

guess what. This is sports. Sure some talk show hosts and some fans may be upset. Some were when a married Kobe went to trial for rape. Some felt that was bigger than leaving a team. 4 years later he had the top selling jersey in the NBA. Vick had a worse breakup with the Falcons, a hugely negative story with dog fighting and had a top 10 selling jersey across all sports 2 years later in Philly. Favre had a worse breakup than any guy with any team in recent memory and had the highest watched cable moment EVER, and the most watched games of the year over the air outside of the Superbowl of any sport in the US. He had the 2nd best selling jersey in all of sports by going to NY. You heard all the drama on that one. His "I'm retiring, no I am not". His "I want to play for a division rival". It was an utter mess, but didn't matter. Him heading to NY and not even playing well there made piles of money for the league. You don't have to like it. But it doesn't keep that from being the reality.

How does David Stern AND Adam Silver screw 29 billionaires by paying off a company that makes 25 BILLION dollars a year (and who's business is built on their reputation and would be ruined if this ever came to light) and the witnesses involved? All for a CHANCE at a 1 year contract with Lebron that we saw had no effect on other stars to want to go there. If you really stop looking at the little crap, and just look at the risk and the reward it is just stupid. Fairy tales make a more believable story than this. Can you even put together a realistic plan to make this work? Why not screw Cleveland out of good picks to sell fans that Lebron would be an idiot to go back there and make it an easier sell to get him to a big market?

Why not do this in the 2012 Draft? That year they sent the biggest name and potentially best player to come into the NBA in a decade... to the leagues smallest market. Really, your best piece to try and get Lebron and that's the year you shoot yourself in the foot with it? Why not send him to Cleveland if you want Lebron there? it makes a lot more sense. Why not send him to a big market where he can get a top free agent and make your league more money? Seriously, if you had control over this, why are you so awful at it. Duncan goes to SA rather than Boston. Melo and Lebron end up in Cleveland and Denver instead of NY and LA. Dwight can go to Chicago or LA and you choose Orlando? Boston and NY can get Oden and Durant and you send them to OKC and Portland? Why, with the biggest chances to help your league do you consistently screw up your best opportunities for your business if you are in control?

Answer me this... ok you have witnesses, media, and a firm that doesn't care about what you could give them. How do you do that? You have 11 team reps watch the process. How you do convince at least 10 of them to screw their team? How much do you pay? How do you ensure one of those witnesses you paid off doesn't tell his wife and this comes out in their divorce proceeding, or doesn't fall on hard times with another witness and RUIN YOUR LEAGUE, as well as send you to jail (this would be fraud for a company). How do you ensure they never get drunk and talk about it? Or find religion and publicly apologize for it? How do you even pay these people off without leaving a paper trail? You are going to trust these kinds of secrets to 80 year old guys with the mental capacity and ability to keep secrets hidden like Donald Sterling? Why put your finances, legacy and freedom on the line if you are Stern, to screw your league?

I am trying to be realistic here. I remember a line that I heard. Two can keep a secret... if one of them is dead. How do you ensure their silence? Hire hitmen that can kill their family if they talk? Might be your best bet there though it still may not stop a deathbed confession and that hasn't stopped people from talking before. You are risking this all over an aggressive case of cancer? Maybe force them into blackmailable situations? Maybe have each of them kill a child on tape for you before they get to witness the draft? He has to find a way to do something the Mafia and the KGB can't do, shut those guys up for life. when you get out of the shallow end of the critical thinking pool, it just isn't plausible.

Look, I am not going to debate that bigger markets getting the biggest stars is the best thing to happen for the NBA. It is a fact, proven year after year. The numbers are there, easy to google. Kobe can go to trial for rape and not even have to play to sell more jerseys than most of the NBA's stars. Big Markets rule the league. That is why they are sharing revenue out with other teams. Big stars in big markets make the NBA the most value. Show me when that hasn't been the case, because you've seen over history that it is. Just because you don't like that statement for whatever personal reason doesn't mean it is plain as day true. Don't tell me you don't like an odds statement. Back up your theory with SOMETHING. ANYTHING.

To buy this, you have to believe the NBA is infallible at its execution. But as bad as can be at its choices with that power.

I looked for holes. I tried to find out the opportunity, the risk, the reward where it would be favorable. I can't find it. I can't find a way to make that pass a basic common sense test and make me feel like a gullible 4 year old for believing. Can you? Or would you rather just not look at that?

lakerman81
07-15-2014, 12:05 PM
The Cavs got three number 1 picks in four years and Lebron. Decent compensation for only losing four seasons. Smells a bit fishy. Lots of money at play.

jmartin80
07-15-2014, 12:16 PM
Way to ignore the fact that Cleveland isn't even the luckiest team when it has come to the draft by the way. I see you are ignoring the best points that really disprove your theory, and grabbing on to the smallest ones.

Look, you have done NOTHING to explain how to pull this one off here. Nothing to prove that it gives you a good reward, NOTHING to show how to reduce your risks. You like the theory, sure. I think it is fun too. But how do you make it plausable?

You bring up again and again about how "lebron was hated by so many fans". Ok, and even with that hate, in a bigger Heat market he was more watched, and sold more for the league. You are proving again and again the market matters more than the legacy of Lebron. Unless you are saying Lebron's decision to go to Miami made him beloved. That 66% more people wanted to see him because he made the decision and left Cleveland...

guess what. This is sports. Sure some talk show hosts and some fans may be upset. Some were when a married Kobe went to trial for rape. Some felt that was bigger than leaving a team. 4 years later he had the top selling jersey in the NBA. Vick had a worse breakup with the Falcons, a hugely negative story with dog fighting and had a top 10 selling jersey across all sports 2 years later in Philly. Favre had a worse breakup than any guy with any team in recent memory and had the highest watched cable moment EVER, and the most watched games of the year over the air outside of the Superbowl of any sport in the US. He had the 2nd best selling jersey in all of sports by going to NY. You heard all the drama on that one. His "I'm retiring, no I am not". His "I want to play for a division rival". It was an utter mess, but didn't matter. Him heading to NY and not even playing well there made piles of money for the league. You don't have to like it. But it doesn't keep that from being the reality.

How does David Stern AND Adam Silver screw 29 billionaires by paying off a company that makes 25 BILLION dollars a year (and who's business is built on their reputation and would be ruined if this ever came to light) and the witnesses involved? All for a CHANCE at a 1 year contract with Lebron that we saw had no effect on other stars to want to go there. If you really stop looking at the little crap, and just look at the risk and the reward it is just stupid. Fairy tales make a more believable story than this. Can you even put together a realistic plan to make this work? Why not screw Cleveland out of good picks to sell fans that Lebron would be an idiot to go back there and make it an easier sell to get him to a big market?

Why not do this in the 2012 Draft? That year they sent the biggest name and potentially best player to come into the NBA in a decade... to the leagues smallest market. Really, your best piece to try and get Lebron and that's the year you shoot yourself in the foot with it? Why not send him to Cleveland if you want Lebron there? it makes a lot more sense. Why not send him to a big market where he can get a top free agent and make your league more money? Seriously, if you had control over this, why are you so awful at it. Duncan goes to SA rather than Boston. Melo and Lebron end up in Cleveland and Denver instead of NY and LA. Dwight can go to Chicago or LA and you choose Orlando? Boston and NY can get Oden and Durant and you send them to OKC and Portland? Why, with the biggest chances to help your league do you consistently screw up your best opportunities for your business if you are in control?

Answer me this... ok you have witnesses, media, and a firm that doesn't care about what you could give them. How do you do that? You have 11 team reps watch the process. How you do convince at least 10 of them to screw their team? How much do you pay? How do you ensure one of those witnesses you paid off doesn't tell his wife and this comes out in their divorce proceeding, or doesn't fall on hard times with another witness and RUIN YOUR LEAGUE, as well as send you to jail (this would be fraud for a company). How do you ensure they never get drunk and talk about it? Or find religion and publicly apologize for it? How do you even pay these people off without leaving a paper trail? You are going to trust these kinds of secrets to 80 year old guys with the mental capacity and ability to keep secrets hidden like Donald Sterling? Why put your finances, legacy and freedom on the line if you are Stern, to screw your league?

I am trying to be realistic here. I remember a line that I heard. Two can keep a secret... if one of them is dead. How do you ensure their silence? Hire hitmen that can kill their family if they talk? Might be your best bet there though it still may not stop a deathbed confession and that hasn't stopped people from talking before. You are risking this all over an aggressive case of cancer? Maybe force them into blackmailable situations? Maybe have each of them kill a child on tape for you before they get to witness the draft? He has to find a way to do something the Mafia and the KGB can't do, shut those guys up for life. when you get out of the shallow end of the critical thinking pool, it just isn't plausible.

Look, I am not going to debate that bigger markets getting the biggest stars is the best thing to happen for the NBA. It is a fact, proven year after year. The numbers are there, easy to google. Kobe can go to trial for rape and not even have to play to sell more jerseys than most of the NBA's stars. Big Markets rule the league. That is why they are sharing revenue out with other teams. Big stars in big markets make the NBA the most value. Show me when that hasn't been the case, because you've seen over history that it is. Just because you don't like that statement for whatever personal reason doesn't mean it is plain as day true. Don't tell me you don't like an odds statement. Back up your theory with SOMETHING. ANYTHING.

To buy this, you have to believe the NBA is infallible at its execution. But as bad as can be at its choices with that power.

I looked for holes. I tried to find out the opportunity, the risk, the reward where it would be favorable. I can't find it. I can't find a way to make that pass a basic common sense test and make me feel like a gullible 4 year old for believing. Can you? Or would you rather just not look at that?

You and I are doing the same thing. We both have a theory which can not be proven in any way. You have proven nothing, and neither have I. Answer me this...

Why do they not televise the actual lottery? Easy solution. Very easy. And would get great ratings and money so why not?

I remember when people accused fans that thought officials were fixing games and shaving points as being gullible and stupid. Remember that result?

Teeboy1487
07-15-2014, 12:27 PM
Cleveland getting 3 number one picks in 4 years is no coincidence lol. A team like Philly or Orlando should have received the number one pick this year. The draft lottery needs to be finished. It still does not eliminate tanking and it seems to make the draft process even more questionable (rigging). I say just do the traditional way. It certainly eliminates the question of rigging. Still, I'm happy for Cleveland fans and I'm happy Lebron is back with the Cavs. I can't wait until next season.

slashsnake
07-15-2014, 12:45 PM
You and I are doing the same thing. We both have a theory which can not be proven in any way. You have proven nothing, and neither have I. Answer me this...

Why do they not televise the actual lottery? Easy solution. Very easy. And would get great ratings and money so why not?

I remember when people accused fans that thought officials were fixing games and shaving points as being gullible and stupid. Remember that result?

Not really. I have given you proof after proof why it fails to make sense. You have given me your opinion in contradiction to historical evidence saying otherwise that it does, found zero evidence to support your claim of how it would help the NBA.

Why televise it? Because there's no need to, I am not going to sit there and watch an audit of ping pong balls. NBA team reps are there, media is there, a 25 billion dollar a year auditing company with no plausible scenario to risk its reputation and success on this oversees it. That's good enough for me and just about everyone else. Why doesn't the government send everyone around the world on a cruise to prove it isn't flat. Because it is a really weak argument and not worth it.

I've given you proof after proof of why Lebron to the biggest market is the best. Poked a million holes in your belief. Care to figure out a believable scenario why? I would love to hear one backed by a little historical fact, because I can't find it.

Yes I do remember the official, that one was easy to believe when you heard people say it could be true. He was caught. Lots of proof, unable to keep a tiny secret long at all. Not a league thing, but a bad guy. Here you are involving a 25 billion dollar a year company, two commissioners, 33 different team reps, media that has been in there and written about the process... And they are doing better than anyone ever at keeping it quiet while making the exact wrong financial decisions with it. People say all the time. Oh that player didn't cheat in the NFL, he'd never do drugs. Then he gets busted.

Doesn't mean NFL as a league is plotting to inject hundreds of NBA players in their sleep with PED's so they fail tests and the NFL can get a bigger piece of the pie. Go ahead and prove they aren't.

Give me a believable scenario. I've given you plenty of believable reasons not to. I went through it with facts, and couldn't make it plausable. I don't care if they are or not to be honest. I just wanted to see if I could make it pass the basic common sense test, and I can't get it even close.

What is your reward with a track record of its success in the past?
What are the risks and how do you mitigate them?
Wheres the opportunity to do this?

Why, after 7 pages here of me begging to you to give me something fact based are you still trying to circle the same argument based solely on your opinion which runs against the historical facts you see?

Prove to me, or at least sell me a plausible scenario where the actions we have seen show the risks outweigh the rewards. Use some historical evidence. Win the common sense argument even. But don't tell me hero Lebron is more important than Big Market Lebron when Big Market Lebron after his decision made a LOT more money for the league in Miami than hero Lebron did in Cleveland. The numbers just don't and never have added up there.

dhopisthename
07-15-2014, 12:46 PM
Just listened to Matt Moore, the author of this article on Kiley and Booms

http://cleveland.cbslocal.com/2014/07/15/cbs-sports-matt-moore-tries-to-defend-himself-against-kiley-booms/

And it's pretty apparent that this is a hatchet job. There is no substantiated evidence that Dan Gilbert selected these players in the draft. Moore makes no reference to GM Chris Grant and blames the draft picks on Gilbert. This is just another example of a national writer ripping Cleveland to get hits on his article.

matt moore is a hack

Dade County
07-15-2014, 12:47 PM
Yep, and showed that he's willing to spend money unlike Mickey Mouse Arison.

lol

It's perfectly understandable why they cut Miller, you are reaching and being a fallower instead of looking and the reasons and the numbers, and factoring in the health of Miller over the years, he was with the HEAT.

Sad.

Oefarmy2005
07-15-2014, 12:59 PM
lol

It's perfectly understandable why they cut Miller, you are reaching and being a fallower instead of looking and the reasons and the numbers, and factoring in the health of Miller over the years, he was with the HEAT.

Sad.

Somebody calculated the odds to be 0.61% for Cleveland to get 3 #1 picks in 4 years (with the % of chance they had)- that is very-very lucky if you ask me. Add to that the chances of my Wolves never moving up in the draft, or say the Wizards jumping up to get Wall(when I called that it's going to happen) and Clippers landing a ton of #1 draft choices - there is a pattern here that defies statistical probability. And yes, I fully expected the Lakers to be in the top 3 this year - was surprised when it didn't happen.

Arch Stanton
07-15-2014, 01:26 PM
lol

It's perfectly understandable why they cut Miller, you are reaching and being a fallower instead of looking and the reasons and the numbers, and factoring in the health of Miller over the years, he was with the HEAT.

Sad.

Understandable or not, it didn't sit well with LeBron. Regardless, I don't think it was the deciding factor on his return to Cleveland.

Arch Stanton
07-15-2014, 01:29 PM
Somebody calculated the odds to be 0.61% for Cleveland to get 3 #1 picks in 4 years (with the % of chance they had)- that is very-very lucky if you ask me. Add to that the chances of my Wolves never moving up in the draft, or say the Wizards jumping up to get Wall(when I called that it's going to happen) and Clippers landing a ton of #1 draft choices - there is a pattern here that defies statistical probability. And yes, I fully expected the Lakers to be in the top 3 this year - was surprised when it didn't happen.

I can agree that maybe it's not fair. But I'll give the Cavs credit for this year. There were a ton of teams tanking to get the #1 pick and the Cavs ended up with that pick because they didn't tank. They actually tried to make the playoffs. Granted they got incredibly lucky. I don't buy into any conspiracy theories. There hasn't been any solid evidence to support them.

Confusious
07-15-2014, 01:29 PM
I also believe that these lotteries are rigged, however I'm interested in the thought process of the league officials who do it.

Cleveland would have been a great story if they were able to overcome losing LeBron to win a title, however I'm interested as to why they didn't help other teams in their major markets. I was almost certain that the Lakers would win the lottery this year.
The fact that the Lakers did not, even though they provide the NBA the best revenue, goes to show that maybe the draft isn't rigged. I know. That sounds so stupid, right? :rolleyes:

slashsnake
07-15-2014, 02:00 PM
Somebody calculated the odds to be 0.61% for Cleveland to get 3 #1 picks in 4 years (with the % of chance they had)- that is very-very lucky if you ask me. Add to that the chances of my Wolves never moving up in the draft, or say the Wizards jumping up to get Wall(when I called that it's going to happen) and Clippers landing a ton of #1 draft choices - there is a pattern here that defies statistical probability. And yes, I fully expected the Lakers to be in the top 3 this year - was surprised when it didn't happen.


.6% sounds low. But you do realize such low odds every team has an insanely low chance to get the picks they did. Philly had a .9% chance to get the picks they received in the last 3 lotteries. Chicago had a .2% chance to end up with the picks they had in their past three lotteries. The way this is built to prohibit tanking, your odds are extremely low for ANY situation that you might get if you are picking near the top of the lottery.

Cleveland was a top 3 team in the lottery in the past 4 years. Their odds for anything predictable are tiny. Their Odds of getting the pick for their record (Ie finish 5th worst and get the 5th pick) those 4 years was .34%. They had twice the chance to win three #1 picks as they did to get what they were "supposed" to get.

Do you see how bias or that innate hope for conspiracy gets in the way here? If they ended up with the exact picks their record would have gotten them, we'd be fine. No worries at all, no story, things worked out how they should have. Even though that would be an even more unlikely scenario to happen from pure chance than them getting three #1's.

slashsnake
07-15-2014, 02:04 PM
The fact that the Lakers did not, even though they provide the NBA the best revenue, goes to show that maybe the draft isn't rigged. I know. That sounds so stupid, right? :rolleyes:

I would say that the fact that in the draft lottery era, the Lakers, Knicks and Celtics have a net loss of draft position than gain overall shows that if they are rigging it, they are doing a really poor job of it.

slashsnake
07-15-2014, 02:43 PM
the reward is fun too. I actually thought Tim Donaghy did what he did. The reward was clear, making a crapload of money. Opportunity was there, he owed a lot of money due to gambling problems. Risk was there, sure he could be outed and his games might draw attention, but he wasn't involving a lot of people. And even with a good looking risk, he only made it 2 years before he got caught.

But look at the benefit of getting a #1 pick. Does it work to get you the best guy?

14 draft we will see.
Didn't work in 2013 (so far with Bennett).
Worked in 2012 (Davis, don't tell me about Lillard or Drummond)
Worked in 11 (Irving, Don't tell me about Faried, Kawhi, or Parsons)
Not in 10 (Wall vs. George or Monroe, a push at best)
Not in 09 ( Blake vs. Harden or Curry, push at best)
Not in 08 (Rose vs. Westbrook or Love, push again at best)
Not in 07 (Oden over Durant, Horford, Noah, etc)
Not in 06 (Bargnani over Aldridge)
Not in 05 (Bogut over CP3)

I am pretty sure the NBA can see that as well. When it comes to risk vs. reward, if it fails to fulfill your intention 7 out of the last 9 times which is getting a clear reward... is it worth the risk? Who is looking at that and saying they need to keep risking the NBA for that kind of success rate?

jmartin80
07-15-2014, 03:47 PM
You still have not proven that rigging does not happen. I know you are very proud of yourself and your posts which is obvious from you patting yourself on the back so much, but you really have not put holes in anything. I can play the fact game too...

Fact: The NBA continues to make money off of very popular players with great legacies (i.e. Jordan, Magic etc.)
Fact: Lebron has been the poster child for the NBA since he left high school. The NBA / ESPN / Nike etc. want him to succeed as soon as he enters. The better he does, the more money they make. The better the Legacy the longer they make money FOREVER. Much bigger picture then just a couple years.
Fact: A lot of free agents do not want to come to Cleveland.
Fact: Lebron left his Cleveland team after 7 years because they "couldn't put enough players around him to win a championship." He joined a power house.
Fact: Lebron lost a lot of fans and his legacy was tarnished.
Fact: As reported, the number of people watching the finals after Lebron lost was much higher then after he won. (Heard that one on the Herd).
Fact: The year Lebron left Cleveland, and he lost a lot of fans and support, Cleveland gains the 1st overall pick with odds of 2.8% (I think it was). (this is following complaints of Cleveland not being able to get FA's to support Lebron).
Fact: The next year, Cleveland again gets the #1 overall pick with a 15% chance. (2 straight years!)
Fact: The year Lebron can opt out and make a triumphant return... Arguably one of the best draft classes in a very long time, The Cavs again get another #1 overall pick with the odds of 1.7%.

They now have the talent, the young roster (cap space) and support to save the Hero's legacy. That is a whole lot of coincidences to happen one after the other. A lot. You proved nothing in all your listing of irrelevant facts that do not provide substantial proof. For example, you used people watching the finals the last time Lebron played in Cleveland? Do you really think the finals will be that low again? If you do, then I don't know what to tell you. And if you truly believe that getting that group of people together in a "private viewing" could not be kept under wraps, then I also believe that you believe everything the government tells you.

As for the Big Markets, they are always generating money. They will get their money if they have high draft picks or not because they can sign the big name free agents. Look at the 3 you mentioned: Boston, Lakers and Knicks. Did they do any major trades or big name free agent deals that stacked their teams not using draft picks? The answer is yes, yes they did. They don't need the draft picks.

Cleveland had to get enough to support to lure James back and the only way to do that was through the draft. 3 #1 in 4 years. 2 right after Lebron leaves, and then 1 as soon as he becomes a free agent. Interesting.

To summarize... you and I both have a theory. Neither theory can be proved one way or the other by using your "facts".

In my opinion, in the long run, Lebron going back to Cleveland is by far the best thing that could have happened to the NBA both financially and publicly. Especially if he wins a Championship. I feel the NBA will do whatever the can to save his legacy.

Also, there is no reason why they can't televise the lottery. I know a lot of people that would watch it. It makes no sense to not air it. Easy solution to everything. Or even put it live on NBA.com to watch. Something. I will never understand the privacy situation.

We will just have to agree to disagree. I wish your team the best of luck. Hopefully the writers of the NBA can help them to a championship prior to them retiring and then moving to the WWE. :D