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View Full Version : How badly did Golden State drop the ball on the Love trade?



FOXHOUND
07-13-2014, 11:12 AM
They got so caught up in not giving up Klay no matter what and now they have virtually no shot at getting Love, as Cleveland has far more assets to put up in any bidding war. This is an example of attachment going horribly wrong. Klay is a very good young SG but I think we all know he is not going to get near what Kevin Love is today, let alone what he can become. Kevin Love is 25! Klay is 24! Seriously, just a major blunder in not going ahead and getting one of the best players in the game, someone who could have obliterated teams with Curry for years to come.

AND they have Harrison Barnes to replace Klay, who is only 22 and could blossom in a bigger role with more talent. Maybe not be as good as Klay but can definitely be a similar caliber player.

Curry-Livingston
Iguodala-Livingston
Barnes-Iguodala/Green
Love-Green
Bogut-Ezeli

What could have been...

What do you guys think? Should they have pulled the trigger on acquiring Love at the loss of Klay, or do you like them keeping The Splash Brothers together? Warriors fans, how do you feel about this situation now that Cleveland is involved with LeBron?

Dade County
07-13-2014, 11:26 AM
I wouldn't have traded Klay either.

Splash Brothers.


They just have to find another way to get this deal done, or finder another team.

likemystylez
07-13-2014, 11:30 AM
They got so caught up in not giving up Klay no matter what and now they have virtually no shot at getting Love, as Cleveland has far more assets to put up in any bidding war. This is an example of attachment going horribly wrong. Klay is a very good young SG but I think we all know he is not going to get near what Kevin Love is today, let alone what he can become. Kevin Love is 25! Klay is 24! Seriously, just a major blunder in not going ahead and getting one of the best players in the game, someone who could have obliterated teams with Curry for years to come.

AND they have Harrison Barnes to replace Klay, who is only 22 and could blossom in a bigger role with more talent. Maybe not be as good as Klay but can definitely be a similar caliber player.

Curry-Livingston
Iguodala-Livingston
Barnes-Iguodala/Green
Love-Green
Bogut-Ezeli

What could have been...

What do you guys think? Should they have pulled the trigger on acquiring Love at the loss of Klay, or do you like them keeping The Splash Brothers together? Warriors fans, how do you feel about this situation now that Cleveland is involved with LeBron?

supposidly the cavs arent offering wiggins- which still leaves the warriors with the best offer even without klay. Keep in mind- the twolves are looking to win now- not start a 12 yr rebuilding prokject by getting picks. if the guy isnt going to help them their first game on opening night- he means nothing to them. Thats why the twolves didnt make a move before the draft.

I think the warriors still have first crack at love- its still up to them whether they want him or not

IndyRealist
07-13-2014, 11:31 AM
Harrison Barnes is a scorer who is subpar at scoring. While I'm not a fan of Klay (he's below the average SG at everything but 3pt shooting and turnovers), the one thing he does do he does well. Having said that, they are overly invested in Klay Thompson. He has a replaceable skill set, with guys like Anthony Morrow, CJ Miles, Trevor Ariza, even Danny Granger available for less than Thompson is going to cost once his rookie deal is up. Kevin Love's skillset is unique in the NBA. Post scoring, 3pt shooting, passing and old-school rebounding? Yeah, I'll take that trade and I'll throw in Barnes to boot. Huge mistake.

curtcocaine
07-13-2014, 11:40 AM
Klay os also an above average defender.

beasted86
07-13-2014, 11:41 AM
I think the problem is people just look at stats on a page without using their brain as to what that means or how Love fits on a team.

Some actually think Love will go from Minnesota to GS and still out up 26/13 playing with those teammates. Wouldn't be surprised to see David Lee stats on a better team at double the cost to Lee.

He doesn't add a lot to that team, I understand the logic. It's also not as if he's increasing their market share or ticket sales either. If they don't want to take Lee and Barnes then I wouldn't do it either acting as GM.

FOXHOUND
07-13-2014, 11:50 AM
I wouldn't have traded Klay either.

Splash Brothers.


They just have to find another way to get this deal done, or finder another team.

It's going to be hard to get a deal done if the Cavs get involved.

FOXHOUND
07-13-2014, 11:53 AM
supposidly the cavs arent offering wiggins- which still leaves the warriors with the best offer even without klay. Keep in mind- the twolves are looking to win now- not start a 12 yr rebuilding prokject by getting picks. if the guy isnt going to help them their first game on opening night- he means nothing to them. Thats why the twolves didnt make a move before the draft.

I think the warriors still have first crack at love- its still up to them whether they want him or not

Yes, but if they start to bid against each other Wiggins can be included eventually. I know Flip is being crazy and trying to get the 8th seed for some reason, they'll never get it this year. I think Flip's stance would change if he could get Wiggins though regardless.

unleashthebeast
07-13-2014, 12:15 PM
I don't think this deal gets done without either Klay leaving GSW, or Wiggins leaving Cleveland, so whichever front office decides to blink first will get the big prize

bleedprple&gold
07-13-2014, 12:20 PM
I wouldn't have traded Klay either.

Splash Brothers.


They just have to find another way to get this deal done, or finder another team.

That mentality of we can find another way to get it done without including Klay is why they will miss on Love. There is no other way to get it done. Its Klay or no deal. And with Cleveland its Wiggins or no deal. Why do these teams just expect to be gifted a superstar without having to give up anything significant?

Chaotic98
07-13-2014, 12:34 PM
That mentality of we can find another way to get it done without including Klay is why they will miss on Love. There is no other way to get it done. Its Klay or no deal. And with Cleveland its Wiggins or no deal. Why do these teams just expect to be gifted a superstar without having to give up anything significant?

Because it happens in every traded all-star in the NBA when one wants out. I can't recall when an all-star was traded for another all-star or when a team losing an all-star or superstar NBA player received better than .75 cents on the dollar.

BKLYNpigeon
07-13-2014, 12:37 PM
Wolves are better off taking all of Boston's 1st Draft Picks + filler.

mavwar53
07-13-2014, 12:37 PM
Harrison Barnes is a scorer who is subpar at scoring. While I'm not a fan of Klay (he's below the average SG at everything but 3pt shooting and turnovers), the one thing he does do he does well. Having said that, they are overly invested in Klay Thompson. He has a replaceable skill set, with guys like Anthony Morrow, CJ Miles, Trevor Ariza, even Danny Granger available for less than Thompson is going to cost once his rookie deal is up. Kevin Love's skillset is unique in the NBA. Post scoring, 3pt shooting, passing and old-school rebounding? Yeah, I'll take that trade and I'll throw in Barnes to boot. Huge mistake.

Possibly one of the stupidest things I've ever read. Mainly the part concerning Klay and his skills.

BKLYNpigeon
07-13-2014, 12:39 PM
I think the Warriors would trade if the deal was Lee+Klay for Love straight up.

They don't want to take on Martins contract. or give up any other assets.

COOLbeans
07-13-2014, 12:41 PM
They got so caught up in not giving up Klay no matter what and now they have virtually no shot at getting Love, as Cleveland has far more assets to put up in any bidding war. This is an example of attachment going horribly wrong. Klay is a very good young SG but I think we all know he is not going to get near what Kevin Love is today, let alone what he can become. Kevin Love is 25! Klay is 24! Seriously, just a major blunder in not going ahead and getting one of the best players in the game, someone who could have obliterated teams with Curry for years to come.

AND they have Harrison Barnes to replace Klay, who is only 22 and could blossom in a bigger role with more talent. Maybe not be as good as Klay but can definitely be a similar caliber player.

Curry-Livingston
Iguodala-Livingston
Barnes-Iguodala/Green
Love-Green
Bogut-Ezeli

What could have been...

What do you guys think? Should they have pulled the trigger on acquiring Love at the loss of Klay, or do you like them keeping The Splash Brothers together? Warriors fans, how do you feel about this situation now that Cleveland is involved with LeBron?

David Lee's no slouch. And trading both players (especially Klay) would rock the Steph curry and overall chemistry boat. Steph already was ignored by the Warriors when they unceremoniously dismissed his favorite coach, Mark Jackson. Steph has already vehemently stated he doesn't want to see Klay traded.

Lee is also a pivotal part of this team but also replaceable. If the deal were Klay for love straight up it would've happened already, but the deal must also include Lee (a team Captain and longest tenured Warrior) for salary reasons. I think losing Lee makes the potential of losing Thompson more severe within the lockerroom, especially since the FO has already stated how much they love Klay. I might be ranting but it's the truth.

todu82
07-13-2014, 12:45 PM
Golden State's good enough already, don't think they should go after Love.

IndyRealist
07-13-2014, 12:45 PM
Possibly one of the stupidest things I've ever read. Mainly the part concerning Klay and his skills.

Klay's skillset is extremely replaceable. Have fun paying him max.

valade16
07-13-2014, 12:47 PM
This Klay Thompson infatuation is perplexing to me. We are talking about the guy who has NEVER posted a 15+ PER right?

The one thing he does at an elite level Kevin Love does also.

There is no conceivable way Klay ever becomes as good as K-Love, it just won't happen.

Now add the fact GS has capable replacements in a starting lineup (Barnes/Iggy/Kevin Martin via the trade) and the decision should be a no brainer.

In 5 years when the Warriors haven't made it past the 2nd round this will be why. Pure idiocy to not get Love because you have to give up Klay.

BKLYNpigeon
07-13-2014, 12:50 PM
Warriors are just playing hardball. they don't want to take back any bad contracts or give up anymore assets.

Flip Saunders wants, Lee+Klay+Barnes 1st round pick for Love+Martin


I think eventually it will get done.

COOLbeans
07-13-2014, 12:54 PM
Klay's skillset is extremely replaceable. Have fun paying him max.

You stated several inaccuracies in your post. And plus your assessment of Klay Thompson is flawed.

ahigbee
07-13-2014, 12:58 PM
Realistically Love plus anything gives you a decent trade off.

Klay Thompson last year averaged 18 ppg, 3 rpg, and 2 apg.
David Lee averaged 18 ppg, 9 rpg, and 2 apg.
So a grand total combined with those two are 36 ppg, 12 rpg and 4 apg.

Kevin Love on his own will give you 26 ppg, 13 rpg, and 5 apg.
To me, it's a no brainer even if you have to pick up Martin's contract. Martin is capable of giving you 12-15 a night scoring wise. I can't see why the GSW would even think twice about it.

IndyRealist
07-13-2014, 01:07 PM
You stated several inaccuracies in your post. And plus your assessment of Klay Thompson is flawed.

What, exactly, was inaccurate? For his position, he's below average in 2pt FG%, per minute rebounding, assists, steals, fouls, and free throw attempts. Warriors fans are saying I'm wrong, but they're not saying HOW I'm wrong or backing it up with any facts. The only thing he really does substantially above average is shoot 3's (both percentage and attempts), and anecdotally I'm being told he's a good defender.

He's going to get paid near max money, and he's not even close to deserving it. For that much money, I'd rather pay Chandler Parsons, who is far more versatile, has a (slightly) better TS%, gets to the rim, and also has a reputation as a good defender.

IndyRealist
07-13-2014, 01:36 PM
Also Klay Thompson has a 106 defensive rating vs. a team rating of 102.6. So when Klay was on the floor, the Warriors were worse defensively than when he was off the floor.

mightybosstone
07-13-2014, 01:41 PM
If you're Cleveland or you're Golden State, you should just suck it up and offer Wiggins and Thompson to get Love while you still can. If they don't, then Minnesota will deal to the highest bidder at the trade deadline when a lot more teams with just as many assets will be interested. If the Rockets match Parsons' offer sheet, for example, Houston can trade Parsons by Dec. 15. I can easily see the Wolves biting on a deal of Parson, the New Orleans' 1st round pick and other pieces. Or Love could get to UFA where all bets are off.

The longer Cleveland and Golden State wait, the less likely they're going to be to get him.

slashsnake
07-13-2014, 01:43 PM
Also Klay Thompson has a 106 defensive rating vs. a team rating of 102.6. So when Klay was on the floor, the Warriors were worse defensively than when he was off the floor.

Not really, they gave up an average of 103.2 points per 48 minutes he played and an average of 105.1 points per 48 minutes he didn't. Offensively the disparity was huge. A difference of 13 points per 48 minutes he played vs. when he didn't offensively. So the Warriors were about 15 points a game better with him on the floor than off it.

I will say he's a bit of a one trick player, but he's improved every year, and is only heading into his 4th season.

IndyRealist
07-13-2014, 01:46 PM
Not really, they gave up an average of 103.2 points per 48 minutes he played and an average of 105.1 points per 48 minutes he didn't. Offensively the disparity was huge. A difference of 13 points per 48 minutes he played vs. when he didn't offensively. So the Warriors were about 15 points a game better with him on the floor than off it.

I will say he's a bit of a one trick player, but he's improved every year, and is only heading into his 4th season.
That's a straw man. I'm not saying he doesn't make up for it on offense. But he ABSOLUTELY is not an "above average defender" as people have noted in this thread. The reality of Klay Thompson does not in any way line up with the perception. Opponents score more when Klay is on the court.

FOXHOUND
07-13-2014, 01:51 PM
Because it happens in every traded all-star in the NBA when one wants out. I can't recall when an all-star was traded for another all-star or when a team losing an all-star or superstar NBA player received better than .75 cents on the dollar.

Carmelo Anthony was traded for Danilo Gallinari, Wilson Chandler, Raymond Felton, Timofey Mozgoz, a 2014 1st round pick and the right to swap 1st round picks in 2016. As part of the deal they also had to take on Chauncey Billups and his contract, and also contract fillers Anthony Carter, Renaldo Balkman and Shelden Williams. This was a three way deal with Minnesota involved but they had little to do with everything.

Deron Williams was traded for Derrick Favors, Devin Harris and two first round picks.

If you think star players are getting traded for nothing then you aren't paying attention. The only time that happens is when a player is a FA who can walk anyways, and the teams work out a SnT so that player can maximize their salary and so that team can at least get something (see: LeBron/Bosh SnTs to Miami).

David Lee and Klay Thompson for Kevin Love is an extremely fair price, it just depends on the circumstance. In 2010 NY and NJ were in a bidding war for Carmelo, which drove up his price. Now it looks like GS and CLE will be in a bidding war for Love.

FOXHOUND
07-13-2014, 01:56 PM
That's a straw man. I'm not saying he doesn't make up for it on offense. But he ABSOLUTELY is not an "above average defender" as people have noted in this thread. The reality of Klay Thompson does not in any way line up with the perception. Opponents score more when Klay is on the court.

Klay Thompson is a really good on ball defender. He held Chris Paul to just 17 PPG and 42% in the playoffs. At the same time he shot just 40% in the series, so that probably took a bit more out of him then you'd like but I think that's a trade off you take every time.

His on/off numbers are simple, Andre Iguodala. Iggy is still by far their best and most impactful defender. Between Iggy missing games and the team having a Klay-Iggy/Iggy-Barnes/Klay-Barnes type rotation on the wings the fact is whenever Iggy is out there their defense will be at it's best.

The thing is perimeter players rarely can make a huge defensive impact. Guys like Iguodala are rare. As good as Klay's on ball defense is he's still just a good on ball defending SG who can guard 1-3. It's definitely a valuable skill but unless he can make a big impact by limiting a star on most nights it's something that won't be tremendous.

FOXHOUND
07-13-2014, 01:58 PM
I think the Warriors would trade if the deal was Lee+Klay for Love straight up.

They don't want to take on Martins contract. or give up any other assets.

Understandable, but to get players like that you gotta make sacrifices. Taking on Martin's contract is a form of asset that would replace a 1st round pick in a deal.

FOXHOUND
07-13-2014, 02:04 PM
David Lee's no slouch. And trading both players (especially Klay) would rock the Steph curry and overall chemistry boat. Steph already was ignored by the Warriors when they unceremoniously dismissed his favorite coach, Mark Jackson. Steph has already vehemently stated he doesn't want to see Klay traded.

Lee is also a pivotal part of this team but also replaceable. If the deal were Klay for love straight up it would've happened already, but the deal must also include Lee (a team Captain and longest tenured Warrior) for salary reasons. I think losing Lee makes the potential of losing Thompson more severe within the lockerroom, especially since the FO has already stated how much they love Klay. I might be ranting but it's the truth.

I see what you're saying, and I like this fan input. I'm a huge David Lee fan, loved him in NY and will always wish him the best. But all of that being as it is, the things you talked about, the fact is Kevin Love is just way, way, way better than Lee and Thompson.

Consider this, despite all of the talent on the Golden State roster and the limited talent on the Wolves roster the Wolves had a better offense this year. Kevin Love with those guys led them to the 9th best offensive rating in the NBA. Stephen Curry with those guys led them to the 12th best offensive rating in the NBA.

You combine a PG like Curry and a PF like Love and you're talking about having a virtual lock on a top 5 offense for the next 5+ years. Bogut can protect Love defensively, as he does for Lee when he's healthy, and Iggy/Livingston can protect Curry defensively. Earlier in the offseason I was a bit skeptical but after acquiring Livingston I thought that this trade became an easy green light.

raiderposting
07-13-2014, 02:06 PM
Warriors should've done it. Klays going to get the max from someone

slashsnake
07-13-2014, 02:06 PM
That's a straw man. I'm not saying he doesn't make up for it on offense. But he ABSOLUTELY is not an "above average defender" as people have noted in this thread. The reality of Klay Thompson does not in any way line up with the perception. Opponents score more when Klay is on the court.

nope but he isn't this awful defender that makes your defense bad either.

And no, opponents do not score more when Klay is on the court, they score 2 fewer points per 48 minutes he plays than they do for every 48 minutes he is on the bench. That is the reality. I'd call him average maybe a bit above. I think that's been one area he really picked up on the past year and late last season too. I thought he did excellent against Lawson, and then Parker and Ginobili too in the playoffs that year. He was the guy they were putting on the best perimeter guy on the other team and he was playing well.

And this year there were a few games that surprised me when Klay would draw the tougher perimeter guy and Igoudala would cover the other one. I mean, game on the line, CP3 or Kyrie coming down and it's Klay getting the on ball cover. Kinda stunning when you have AI there, but watch him and you can see why they make that call.

So yeah, he's gone from pretty bad early on to above average.

IndyRealist
07-13-2014, 02:11 PM
Klay Thompson is a really good on ball defender. He held Chris Paul to just 17 PPG and 42% in the playoffs. At the same time he shot just 40% in the series, so that probably took a bit more out of him then you'd like but I think that's a trade off you take every time.

His on/off numbers are simple, Andre Iguodala. Iggy is still by far their best and most impactful defender. Between Iggy missing games and the team having a Klay-Iggy/Iggy-Barnes/Klay-Barnes type rotation on the wings the fact is whenever Iggy is out there their defense will be at it's best.

The thing is perimeter players rarely can make a huge defensive impact. Guys like Iguodala are rare. As good as Klay's on ball defense is he's still just a good on ball defending SG who can guard 1-3. It's definitely a valuable skill but unless he can make a big impact by limiting a star on most nights it's something that won't be tremendous.

I'd buy that on a larger sample size. In ONE matchup, he had the advantage. But as you pointed out, he shot poorly and was exhausted, so this is not the normal effort he puts out on a nightly basis. He has the worst defensive rating out of their starters, and 3rd worst on the team. He can be a good defender, it doesn't mean he is.

IndyRealist
07-13-2014, 02:13 PM
nope but he isn't this awful defender that makes your defense bad either.

And no, opponents do not score more when Klay is on the court, they score 2 fewer points per 48 minutes he plays than they do for every 48 minutes he is on the bench. That is the reality. I'd call him average maybe a bit above. I think that's been one area he really picked up on the past year and late last season too. I thought he did excellent against Lawson, and then Parker and Ginobili too in the playoffs that year. He was the guy they were putting on the best perimeter guy on the other team and he was playing well.

And this year there were a few games that surprised me when Klay would draw the tougher perimeter guy and Igoudala would cover the other one. I mean, game on the line, CP3 or Kyrie coming down and it's Klay getting the on ball cover. Kinda stunning when you have AI there, but watch him and you can see why they make that call.

So yeah, he's gone from pretty bad early on to above average.
I'm not sure where you're looking for numbers, but Klay has a 106 defensive rating (points allowed per 100 possessions) vs. 102.6 for the team as a whole. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/2014.html

Ty Fast
07-13-2014, 02:16 PM
love would sign an extension with GS so why give up klay, david lee and maybe a 1st (maybe more) for 1 year of love and be stuck with kevin martin.

Lloyd Christmas
07-13-2014, 02:17 PM
As a warriors fan, yes we are completely dropping the ball. Just add Klay and get it done.

mavwar53
07-13-2014, 02:19 PM
Better 2 way SGs that actually guard the best guard on each team, Klay is the reason the warriors can hide curry defensively.

FOXHOUND
07-13-2014, 02:43 PM
Warriors should've done it. Klays going to get the max from someone

Aye, that's going to hurt too. I like Klay a lot, but paying his $15M is going to be painful.

FOXHOUND
07-13-2014, 02:51 PM
I'd buy that on a larger sample size. In ONE matchup, he had the advantage. But as you pointed out, he shot poorly and was exhausted, so this is not the normal effort he puts out on a nightly basis. He has the worst defensive rating out of their starters, and 3rd worst on the team. He can be a good defender, it doesn't mean he is.

That's a fair point.

Monta is beast
07-13-2014, 02:52 PM
Klay is going to be better than Harden within the next three years imo as an overall player, add that to curry and thats why you dont trade klay

Monta is beast
07-13-2014, 02:53 PM
love would sign an extension with GS so why give up klay, david lee and maybe a 1st (maybe more) for 1 year of love and be stuck with kevin martin.

are u trying to say he wouldnt sign an extension with us, cause we were one of his preferred teams

slashsnake
07-13-2014, 02:54 PM
I'd buy that on a larger sample size. In ONE matchup, he had the advantage. But as you pointed out, he shot poorly and was exhausted, so this is not the normal effort he puts out on a nightly basis. He has the worst defensive rating out of their starters, and 3rd worst on the team. He can be a good defender, it doesn't mean he is.

Not sure if I buy defensive rating, or how it goes, but according to that, Andre Igoudala is only the 9th best defensive player on the warriors. That doesn't pass the eye test either.

82games.com does some neat breakdowns, basically its every play broken down where they can say, player x played against centers 15% of the time, and power forwards 85% of the time and here's what they did against each other.

PEr average is 15.

Klay vs. PG's allowed per 48 minutes 20 points, 5.6 assists and 4.7 turnovers. A PER of 8.3, which is Norris Cole type numbers. The 20.6 PP48 works out to scoring exactly at a Randy Foye, Grieveous Vasquez type rate there. The turnovers really help the PER there for Klay

Klay vs. SG's allowed per 48 allowed a PER of 12.4 and a PP48 of 20.1. that PPG in comparison for a starter would be along the lines of Trey Burke, Terrence Ross, or Randy Foye again. THat falls in the Patrick Beverly, Evan Turner, not quite as good as Ray Allen or Raymond Felton last season.

Klay vs. SF's allowed 18.2 PP48 and a 10.5 PER. Udonis Haslem and Rashard Lewis are the only forwards I can find with decent time in that PER range. Evan Fournier and Thabo Sefalosha are there as well at guard for a better comparison. the 18.2 per 48 minutes allowed is on the Richard Jefferson, Danny Green, Corey Brewer, Big Baby Davis PPG level.

So defensively how does that match up?

Well Igoudala gives up a PP48 around 17 or so and a PER average around 11 or 12. Paul george pts 18, PER 14, CP3 pts 18, PER 13. Jimmy Butler, pts 16, PER 14. Patrick Beverly, PTs 16, PER 13. Kawhi Leonard, Pts 17, PER 15. Curry, PER 14, PTS 20

So not too bad in comparison to those types of guys. His allowed eFG% is pretty decent as well on there. Allowed a .465 at shooting guard where he was 90% of the time. 50% is average.

And just for Fun, Love spent 70% of the time at PF, gave up 21 PP48 and 14 PER there and 21 PP48 and 17.7 PER at center the rest of the time.


Again, I have no dog in this race, I think he surprised me last post-season and what I saw I liked this year, and thought that Drating sounded a little screwy when I saw it said Igoudala basically was a crappy defender.

Not saying this is the end all or anything like that.. not a huge fan of advanced stats at times because they can say so many different things... just the numbers and comparisons trying to find an offensive guy playing the same position that played more than 200 minutes to give an idea of the equivalent from the other side.

mightybosstone
07-13-2014, 02:54 PM
Klay is going to be better than Harden within the next three years imo as an overall player, add that to curry and thats why you dont trade klay

You can have an opinion. That doesn't make it right. Klay is not even in the same breath as Harden as a basketball player right now. Statistically they're just on completely different levels, and I see no reason as to why Thompson should reach Harden's level of efficiency.

Monta is beast
07-13-2014, 02:55 PM
and we still have plenty of other assets. people say if you take of klay and wiggins cle has way better assets, how?

barnes>waiters
green>TT

Hawkeye15
07-13-2014, 02:55 PM
Klay is going to be better than Harden within the next three years imo as an overall player, add that to curry and thats why you dont trade klay

Let me know when Klay's advanced numbers hit average..

Monta is beast
07-13-2014, 02:56 PM
You can have an opinion. That doesn't make it right. Klay is not even in the same breath as Harden as a basketball player right now. Statistically they're just on completely different levels, and I see no reason as to why Thompson should reach Harden's level of efficiency.

harden is possibly the worst defender in the league. klay is an elite defender. klay has progressively gotten better on both ends of the court every season see no reason for that to change. i think harden is close to his peak nothing against him hes a great player, but as an overall player i think klay will end up being the better.

Monta is beast
07-13-2014, 03:00 PM
yeah no doubt right now harden is the much superior player. but like i said i think harden is near his peak and klay has gotten better every single year. the warriors could have had harden, the thunder wanted klay but the warriors didnt make the trade.

mightybosstone
07-13-2014, 03:08 PM
yeah no doubt right now harden is the much superior player. but like i said i think harden is near his peak and klay has gotten better every single year. the warriors could have had harden, the thunder wanted klay but the warriors didnt make the trade.

I'm not doubting that Klay will get better or that he's a damn good basketball player, because he will and he is. But you're making it sound like Harden is so much older. You know they're the same age, right? And the gap between them is so substantial that it would take a monumental leap in usage and efficiency for him to match Harden, much less surpass him.

IndyRealist
07-13-2014, 03:16 PM
Not sure if I buy defensive rating, or how it goes, but according to that, Andre Igoudala is only the 9th best defensive player on the warriors. That doesn't pass the eye test either.

82games.com does some neat breakdowns, basically its every play broken down where they can say, player x played against centers 15% of the time, and power forwards 85% of the time and here's what they did against each other.

PEr average is 15.

Klay vs. PG's allowed per 48 minutes 20 points, 5.6 assists and 4.7 turnovers. A PER of 8.3, which is Norris Cole type numbers. The 20.6 PP48 works out to scoring exactly at a Randy Foye, Grieveous Vasquez type rate there. The turnovers really help the PER there for Klay

Klay vs. SG's allowed per 48 allowed a PER of 12.4 and a PP48 of 20.1. that PPG in comparison for a starter would be along the lines of Trey Burke, Terrence Ross, or Randy Foye again. THat falls in the Patrick Beverly, Evan Turner, not quite as good as Ray Allen or Raymond Felton last season.

Klay vs. SF's allowed 18.2 PP48 and a 10.5 PER. Udonis Haslem and Rashard Lewis are the only forwards I can find with decent time in that PER range. Evan Fournier and Thabo Sefalosha are there as well at guard for a better comparison. the 18.2 per 48 minutes allowed is on the Richard Jefferson, Danny Green, Corey Brewer, Big Baby Davis PPG level.

So defensively how does that match up?

Well Igoudala gives up a PP48 around 17 or so and a PER average around 11 or 12. Paul george pts 18, PER 14, CP3 pts 18, PER 13. Jimmy Butler, pts 16, PER 14. Patrick Beverly, PTs 16, PER 13. Kawhi Leonard, Pts 17, PER 15. Curry, PER 14, PTS 20

So not too bad in comparison to those types of guys. His allowed eFG% is pretty decent as well on there. Allowed a .465 at shooting guard where he was 90% of the time. 50% is average.

And just for Fun, Love spent 70% of the time at PF, gave up 21 PP48 and 14 PER there and 21 PP48 and 17.7 PER at center the rest of the time.


Again, I have no dog in this race, I think he surprised me last post-season and what I saw I liked this year, and thought that Drating sounded a little screwy when I saw it said Igoudala basically was a crappy defender.

Not saying this is the end all or anything like that.. not a huge fan of advanced stats at times because they can say so many different things... just the numbers and comparisons trying to find an offensive guy playing the same position that played more than 200 minutes to give an idea of the equivalent from the other side.
Wait, you don't buy offensive/defensive rating, which is basically just counting, but you believe in PER?

sf-fanatic
07-13-2014, 03:35 PM
If you're Cleveland or you're Golden State, you should just suck it up and offer Wiggins and Thompson to get Love while you still can. If they don't, then Minnesota will deal to the highest bidder at the trade deadline when a lot more teams with just as many assets will be interested. If the Rockets match Parsons' offer sheet, for example, Houston can trade Parsons by Dec. 15. I can easily see the Wolves biting on a deal of Parson, the New Orleans' 1st round pick and other pieces. Or Love could get to UFA where all bets are off.

The longer Cleveland and Golden State wait, the less likely they're going to be to get him.

I think Parsons contract is set up where he can't be traded in year 1.

Slim Tubby
07-13-2014, 04:23 PM
As a Wolves fan, I certainly don't blame them for not wanting to include Wiggins in the trade. However, one basic fact is largely being ignored. Bron has 3-5 years of superstar level play ahead of him and Love gives CLE a better chance at titles during that time frame than Wiggins.

Nikeman
07-13-2014, 04:26 PM
As a Wolves fan, I certainly don't blame them for not wanting to include Wiggins in the trade. However, one basic fact is largely being ignored. Bron has 3-5 years of superstar level play ahead of him and Love gives CLE a better chance at titles during that time frame than Wiggins.

Exactly. I think Lebron's letter said enough, Cleveland will give up Wiggins, but just trying hard to hold on. LeBron didn't mention bennett and wiggins in his letter of young players he wants to mentor.

likemystylez
07-13-2014, 11:08 PM
Let me know when Klay's advanced numbers hit average..

yeah- LOL as a warrior fan, let me apologize for my fellow warriors fans. Klay doesnt need to prove himself with stats here in warrior land. We think hes a superstar because of bay area radio and general hype. also many warriors fans have fallen in love with the whole "splash bros" campaign and well klays part of that

hes a nice defensive player and he can guard a few positions well. I dont think he locks people up or anything- but his offense is incredibly inconsistent. he is just as likely to have a 4-15 night as he is to go 12-17 and catch fire in the last 4 or 5 minutes.